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A quick look at this talk page will reveal the previous intro description of SDIA as "the busiest, most difficult single runway in the world" has met with some controversy over the way it may be interpreted by those without aviation expertise. I have, in the past, defended this description and its placement in the article intro. However, over time I have come to perceive some issues with it. Namely that it is, well, in all likelihood not true.
SDIA is not the busiest single runway in the world. Each of the runways at London Heathrow see more traffic per day than SDIA's, and as noted in the article both Mumbai Airport and London Gatwick are busier in passenger numbers. As for difficulty, SDIA does not have the steepest approach into a commercial airport in the world (both London City Airport and Aspen/Pitkin County Airport are steeper), a variety of airports have shorter landing areas, and several are more well known for challenging tailwinds (such as Madeira Airport). To be the busiest, most difficult single runway in the world sets an extremely high bar, one that veers into hyperbole. This not not helped by the source being an SD community planning group member with no aviation background, nor evidence of having surveyed airports worldwide before proclaiming SDIA as outdoing every other airport on the planet in busyness and difficulty.
But removing all mention of SDIA's landing approach from the intro, as others have suggested, would not be appropriate. It is one of the more distinctive features of the airport, and commonly mentioned in discussions about SDIA. I have attempted to edit the intro into a form which strays clear of dubious opinions and sticks closer to citable facts for which SDIA's landing approach is well known for. Voteins ( talk) 06:15, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
There are editorial claims made in the description of the airport that should be removed. The claim is based on a 10 year old editorial that is not even a mainstream news source. This part should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk) 21:53, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
The claim of "dangerous" comes from the opinion piece used as the source (11), showing clear bias. The rest of the supporting documentation is simply flight procedures and general information, it bolsters nothing. It does not support being "well cited" either. These are contrary to the claim of "well cited". The entire segment of the entry is meant to sensationalize. Orange County is short (5700-feet). Burbank is short (6886-feet). Chicago/Midway is short and difficult due to weather (6522-feet), something San Diego does not encounter. San Diego has a 3.5-degree approach angle, a normal approach angle (See FAA Order 8260.3d - Section 2-6, Approach Category D aircraft - https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/Order_8260.3D_vs3.pdf). Further, Runway 27 now has an RNP approach providing an instrument approach to Runway 27 that was not available before. The airport supports Japan Airlines, Lufthansa and British Airways. If the runway were "short" or "difficult" these airlines wouldn't be operating there. It also wouldn't have an RNP approach.
The poster you have responded to is actually quite correct.
The article used from the LA Times is 30-years old. At the time of the LA Times article, the approach slope to San Diego was 4.6-degrees – arguably the most difficult approach for any commercial airport in the US. This is where much of the claims about San Diego’s difficulties hinge on. The extent of special crew requirements is limited to chart publications regarding terrain and pilot familiarity of close in terrain. Flight procedures once had a notice of erroneous terrain warnings with the GPWS. These notes have since been removed from the procedures. There are also multiple airports on that list that no one seems to consider complex or dangerous like San Francisco, yet it is listed for the very same reason. I'm also unsure that the statement "Sources are not required to be unbiased". That's just weird when it can be condradicted.
Your response states that a 3.2-degrees approach angle disallows precision approaches, this is factually inaccurate. RNPs with 0.1 level tolerances are precision approaches. As per the chart in section 2-6-2 of FAA Order 8260.3, the upper limit is 3.5-degrees, not 3.2. ILS is no longer limited to 3.1-degrees either (the old upper limit - there was never a 3.2-degree limit), and if the FAA wanted to they could probably install one now. No commercial airport I am aware of supports CAT E which is limited to 3.1-degrees. The visibility is controlled by obstacles, likely there is one, that penetrates the 20:1 or 34"1 surface. It has nothing to do with the approach angle.
As a final note, I definitely wouldn’t compare San Diego to Kaitak. It’s simply not a valid comparison for any airport except maybe Toncontin. Kaitak had a curved final segment with a modified ILS system and was incredibly dangerous. That simply isn’t the case with San Diego.
Much of the claims simply do not hold up anymore and are based on dated information that likely doesn’t take into account current conditions.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk • contribs)
I reached out to a former colleague who has this to say regarding SAN:
“On the issue of the threshold displacement for Runway 9 the project served two purposes: It allowed the approach slope to be reduced from 3.22-degrees to 3.1-degrees and the threshold crossing height (TCH) to be reduced from 85-feet to 55-feet. This was prior to the allowance to have a 3.5-degree slope which changed in October 2015. They moved the threshold in 2013. The approach slope for Runway 9 is not controlled by the school as mentioned. The coordinates for the obstacle that controls the approach angle for Runway 9 is located at the following coordinates (32 44 33.96N, 117 13 28.62W). Its height is 238’ MSL. Visibility minimums are standard, however CAT II/III minimums are prevented by a flagpole just west of and near the airport.”
“On Runway 27, there are no trees that play role in the minimums or approach angle. There is a building that controls the approach slope to Runway 27 located at the following coordinates (32 43 40.91N, -117 9 54.67W). Its height is 226’-MSL. The visibility for all approaches is controlled by a telephone pole at the following coordinates (32 43 48.74N, 117 9 53.79"W). The airport has stated that this pole will be removed by the utility company sometime in the future. When this pole its, the RNP minimums will drop to 250-feet and ¾-mile. It’s limited to ¾-mile due to 34:1 penetrations. Localizer minimums will drop to 500-feet and 1-mile.”
“The person appears be confusing space based procedures with conventional procedures. RNP procedures do not have the same terminology as ground based, but RNP .11 is a precision equivalent. RNP .3 is non-precision. A precision approach is one that has horizontal and vertical guidance, period. ILS will not cause the RNAV to go haywire. ILS and RNAV are not interrelated, but they can combined (required to be available) for special minimums. Glideslopes are usable to airports provided the propagation area is clear. If a 3.5-degree slope can be supported, so too can a glideslope component of an ILS. They can even be steeper if needed provided there are no propagation issues. While not under the FAA purview, London City airport uses a 6-degree glideslope. The issue is most likely where to place the glideslope antenna. Typical installations are 300-400-feet from the runway centerline, which would be too close to a taxiway at SAN to allow planes to taxi. Additionally, an RNP and LDA are not interrelated. Performance based approaches are a replacement for precision and non-precision approaches. LDA’s are non-precision as are Localizer minima. The RNP’s at Lindbergh do not require ground aids to be in service for coupling as mentioned above. RNP .11 is a precision equivalent with positive vertical and horizontal guidance to the threshold, it’s an issue of obstacle penetration at SAN controlling visibility. Users to not have to fly the visual segment by hand. Full CAT I approaches are supported by RNP .11. Currently, there is no support for CAT II/III as GBAS is required. This remains under development.”
Also note, below is an old article that describes the 4.5-degree slope for Runway 27 from 1988:
Quote: “At most airports, the angle of approach is 3 degrees. But the terrain around Lindbergh requires a steeper descent of roughly 4.5 degrees, aviation officials said.”
http://articles.latimes.com/1988-04-07/news/mn-1499_1_san-diego-airport — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk) 18:50, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
It should be noted that the difference between a 3.0-degree approach angle and 3.5-degrees is 53-feet at 1-nautical mile, which is negligible. 4.5 would have been 159-feet, clearly providing a challenge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk) 20:59, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
My source is an FAA TERPS Specialist that was based in the Seattle Office that worked specifically on SAN between 2013 and 2015. I will have to insist that your understanding is wholly inaccurate, particularly with regard to what controls the approaches into the airport. It simply doesn't hold up and your avoidance of it is telling, never mind my source which is not an opinion. Its also disingenuous to be dismissive of FAA regulatory guidance in an effort to substantiate your opinion. Finally, I honestly cannot believe that your are holding an opinion piece with higher regard that a news article that lays out the complexity that existed 30 years ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk • contribs)
The changes are published. The approach had a 4.5-degree slope 30 years ago. Today it is 3.5. I provided a source for it above and the current flight procedures are evidence of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk) 21:31, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
References
I watched the documentary you speak of, and unfortunately it just doesn't hold up.
These are far more difficult airports, and any reasonable person would agree they are far more difficult than San Diego:
https://www.travelandleisure.com/airlines-airports/worlds-scariest-airports-landings#norway-sandane-airport https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimdobson/2018/11/08/the-17-most-dangerous-airports-in-the-world-and-why-you-must-experience-them/#15729eda2a8f https://www.baatraining.com/22-most-challenging-runways-in-the-world/ https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/article/the-most-dangerous-airports-in-the-world/ss-AAAdCFd#image=21 https://wanderwisdom.com/transportation/Most-Dangerous-Airports
Further, this article suggests its the 7th safest airport, ironically in the same year as the 2011 documentary:
Suggest the following be added to offer some balance:
“Despite its history of being considered a challenging airport, significant changes have occurred over the years mitigating much of the concerns people have suggested about the airport. Its now even considered one of the top 10 safest airports in the country ( https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/tourism/sdut-how-does-san-diego-fare-on-airport-safety-2011aug03-story.html). The approach slope for Runway 27 was lowered from 4.5-degrees ( http://articles.latimes.com/1988-04-07/news/mn-1499_1_san-diego-airport) to 3.5-degrees in the late 1990s through the use of improved visual guidance equipment ( http://articles.latimes.com/1988-07-23/news/mn-6384_1_parking-garage). In addition, GPS approaches have been added, including an RNP procedure that provides vertical guidance for the first time to Runway 27, similar to an ILS ( https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/procedures/application/?event=procedure.results&nasrId=SAN#searchResultsTop).”
I believe balance is appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk) 20:24, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ca51_filner/20030925airport.html
Jeff Ristine, San Diego Union Tribune, May 3, 2005.
http://www.floatinc.com/Floatport.html
Tobycat 20:29, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
Wasn't there also a proposal at one point to make Mirimar a dual-purpose airport?
Also, someone should add some text discussing the fact that the landing approach to SAN is one of the most challenging because of the rather steep glideslope, built-up downtown, and relatively short runways.
Nsayer 22:30, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
There was a proposal in the early 1980s to have a joint use airport with Tijuana, Mexico. The proposed project was dubbed "Twin-Ports." There would have been an airport built along the border connected by taxiways to Tijuana's existing General Abelardo L. Rodríguez International Airport. The proposal was given some serious consideration, however due to the problems with illegal human and drug trafficking through the border, the idea was scrapped. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Trewells ( talk • contribs) 12:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC-7)
The issue of replacing or relocating SAN will be debated until the end of time. The terrain and lack of land available makes this a moot point. Unlike cities that are located inland, it is impossible to go west because of the ocean, improbable to go south because of the mountains on approach (Brown Field in the South Bay was looked at), improbable to go east because of mountains and/or desert and improbable to go north due to lack of available land. SAN will forever be the airport for San Diego and it will always lack the ability to have regular intercontinental service because weight restrictions and noise restrictions. San Diego would be an ideal city for an alternative point for Asian service but it will never happen because of SAN's size. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
Trewells (
talk •
contribs) 13:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC-7)
I understood Gatwick (UK) to be the world's busiest single-runway airport. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
216.52.215.232 (
talk •
contribs) 17:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC-7)
Gatwick has two runways:
http://gc.kls2.com/airport/LGW
Location City: London, Surrey, England, United Kingdom Name: Gatwick ICAO / IATA: EGKK / LGW
Details Type: Airport (Aerodrome, Airfield) Latitude: 51°08'53"N (51.148056) Longitude: 0°11'25"W (-0.190278) Datum: WGS 1984 Elevation: 202 ft (62 m) Timezone: UTC+0 (DST+1) Runways: 2 Longest: 10364 × 148 ft (3159 × 45 m) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.3.201.43 ( talk • contribs) 09:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC-8)
This message is for the poster with IP address 71.136.142.2. Please adhere to Wikipedia's NPOV policies with respect to your edits about Miramar dual use. Also keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a place for future speculation and opinion, and it is certainly not a place to further agendas. That said, please restrict your additions to this section to facts. Thank you.
-- IRelayer 19:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
SAN technology is used in millions of offices and companies AROUND THE WORLD! The obscure aviators-only code of a second-tier US domestic airport does not hold a candle to it in importance. SAN should point to Storage Area network, because this is en.wikipedia.org, not us.wikipedia.org! 195.70.32.136 17:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The airport code SAN was used before a Storage Area Network was even thought of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.2 ( talk) 18:40, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
The "Relocation proposals" section of this article, in particular the first paragraph, seems rather biased towards making a pro-new airport argument. Sources for various claims such as capacity need to be cited, and I'm not sure how "To claim otherwise is absurd" can pass for non-neutral. Tagged for POV check. -- Hawaiian717 18:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Capacity References:
http://www.san.org/documents/planning/airport_planning/SDBoard_Meeting_FINAL_060704v6.pps
http://www.san.org/documents/planning/airport_planning/SAN_Aviation_Activity_Forecasts_June_04.pdf
Full Relocation Study Data:
http://www.san.org/airport_authority/archives/index.asp
Reference Floating Airport: There is no proof of such "public" interest, only that of a handful of nut jobs who offer no proof that the concept would work and are now trying to push the idea. It was fully rejected by the Airport Authroity on merits so unless they plan on building it themselves, it's not happening as the Airport Authrity is the controlling agency. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
75.3.201.43 (
talk •
contribs) 10:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC-8)
London Gatwick has 2 runways, according to London Gatwick Airport-- Arado 09:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Are we absolutly sure that Virgin Atlantic Airways will start service to San Diego in 2008. All of their aircraft are long haul wide-body aircraft and the largest plane that I know of that can land and stop at SAN effectively is the Boeing 767. Other planes however can land, but must come in at the lowest manuverable speed. So all I'm saying is, would Virgin Atlantic be able to service this airport? And London Gatwick has a maintenence runway for backup if there is an accident on the main runway. 76.88.107.42 23:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Virgin America Service is confirmed as starting 2/12/2008 - I think someone got this confused w/ Virgin Atlantic... a search of the internet returns NO confirmation or rumor of service to KSAN... DELETED —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.239.162.58 ( talk • contribs) 16:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC-8)
San Diego made the 2006 list for the top 30 busiest airports in the United States, with a rank of 30. The ranking was determined by the amount of passengers that pass through the airport annually. San Diego International was ranked #1 on the list of the busiest uni-runway airports in the United States. -- Press208 00:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The article claims that arrivals are allowed in the airport at all times. However, I was on a flight that was diverted to Ontario because a delay pushed the landing after 11:30 PM. Can we get claification on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.126.148 ( talk) 20:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I don´t know how to edit these but CMH, PIT, and soon CLE have to be removed. More importantly, I think these maps can create confusion between non-stop and direct destinations. For example, MEX is a one-stop (SJD), direct, no-plane-change AM destination. It might lead some readers to believe that it is a non-stop destination due to the way it is shown here. I suggest that we either fix this error (but there may be others like it) or replace the map with one similar to the one on the O'Hare page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.217.122.249 ( talk) 16:01, 2 September 2008
I think the wording of this section needs to be changed because it sounds misleading. Tijuana's airport's existence does not depend solely on the lack of international flights from San Diego. Rather, it serves the more than one million people who live there and on the side, it handles many Southern Californians, most of whom are headed to Mexican destinations since the domestic (Mexican) flights offered from TIJ are cheaper and more convenient (non-stop, etc) than international ones departing from the US. Furthermore, I suggest shifting the information about flights to Tokyo and Shanghai to go after the Mexican destinations. Currently, it sounds as if its primary focus is intercontinental flights when in reality it is domestic (Mexican) flights. In fact, part of the reason why Tijuana has intercontinental flights is Mexico City's high altitude which diminishes the performance of aircraft, thus requiring a fuel stop-over on the way to Asia. Deus Caritas Est ( talk) 23:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Why is Tijuana even listed under SAN? It is not an alternate airport to SAN. It's in another country and there is not any sign of a partnership between the organizations that operate the airports. Furthermore, no US carrier is goign to set up shop there creating a secondary market for San Diego. It could be refered to as a nearby commerical airport, but certainly not an alternate. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
209.203.104.162 (
talk)
18:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Tijuana International Airport is listed as an alternate because it is right next door. Literally, the airport is right on the border. Easy access for Americans. There are even shuttle bus services running between the US and TIJ. Because of the close proximity to SAN, it can be more of an option for San Diegans than John Wayne Airport in Orange County. Also, information about flights to Narita was changed because this is no longer the case unfortunately, at least on Aeromexico like the article used to mention. Flights to Narita or Shanghai are primarily routed through either Mexico City or Los Angeles (LAX). -- Uncle Bex ( talk) 20:37, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
But its not an alternate airport because its in another country. You can't even divert a plane there from SAN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.159.229.128 ( talk) 04:36, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Convair built passenger jets at Lindbergh Field in the 1950s and 1960s. Check Convair 880 and Convair 990. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.151.197 ( talk) 03:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I think it should be noted that Lindbergh Field is the only airport that I know of that sets aside a portion of its infield as a seasonal nesting area for an endangered species called the California Least Tern. 68.111.246.29 ( talk) 01:35, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I have recently reverted information removal by an IP user. The user did not provide an edit summary for the two edits that were made, and did not give a good reason why the information should be removed. If that IP user would like to discuss improving the article by removing said information I would like to provide this section for that discussion. Thank you. -- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 08:43, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I've reverted runway usage quite a few times by people who keep quoting that one pilot-column writer in USA Today that SAN goes to east runway in fog. For the record, there is dense fog this morning and SAN is in 9/27 operation until the ceiling goes up to 700 feet or so. If there's any doubt, looking up flight tracks and ATC recordings (publicly available on the internet) for Monday morning, April 26, 2010 will be more reliable than one pilot. HkCaGu ( talk) 13:41, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the last edit. A lot of that information isn´t necesary though a half sentence sumary makes the paragraph stronger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shabidoo ( talk • contribs) 12:58, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
I've been in line on the runway with mediocre fog and had them start switching operations. It is actually pretty interesting when they have planes taking off towards and the east, and west, and landing from the east and west. venomgyz ( talk) 07:49, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Also gave a better explaination of the reverse flow.
SAN is in east to west flow below 2 miles vis for 27. Some carriers will use 27 for departures due to weight penalties while everyone else uses 9 for arrivals and departures. This occurs about 6% fo the time at the airport (one day where the vis was marginal isn't very reliable either). Also cleaned up new approach info, and delcared distance info that was recently published in the charts Ruwnay 9 is now 1,121 feet shorter than runway 27 mathematically, but not physically. Under "Relocation" the sentence stated that the airport claimesd it would reach capacity in 2015-2022. That's not what the source says. What is says is that it will be constrained, meaning congested. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.159.229.128 ( talk) 04:28, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
There is no ILS approach from the east. I think this is useful information that should be included on the wiki. This is one of the reasons why during fog conditions they will require reverse operations. In fact, even during bad weather, if you can not spot the runway within a certain threshold a pilot is required to declare a missed approach. You can see the specifications here: http://www.airnav.com/airport/KSAN
venomgyz ( talk) 07:52, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
This is inaccurate: Gatwick is also single-use and carries nearly twice as many passengers. Equally, when I was checking the CAA Statistics on 2010 airport use I saw that London Stansted (also single-runway) carried 18,562,000 passengers in 2010 Link here- more than the 18.3m quoted for San Diego in this article. Any suggestions on that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.17.22 ( talk) 16:35, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
What you are saying is innacurate. San Diego had 18.9 million passengers in 2010 not 18.3 million. It was listed that San Diego was the second busiest behind Gatwick, which it still is (even though Gatwick technically has two runways) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.2 ( talk) 22:31, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
San Diego also has about 40,000 annual operations more than Standsted. In 2010, San Diego had over 190,937 operations where Standsted had 155,140. Therefore, San Diego is busier in terms of operations and passengers than Standsted. http://www.san.org/sdia/at_the_airport/education/airport_statistics.aspx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.2 ( talk) 18:17, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Removed "viewing area" section. It talked about people viewing planes then went off on a strange tangent about Miramar and the military that made no sense at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.2 ( talk) 22:38, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
It appears from the departure proceedure charts that the obstruction issue is improved a slightly. Updated this info. Could be a result of the airport wanting to improve the capability for British Airways that operates with a weight penalty. The 777-200ER has a Max takeoff weight of 656,000-pounds for 5,000 miles but it's limited to about 600k at SAN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.3.206.245 ( talk) 03:22, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
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When I first arrived in San Diego in April of 1975, I departed the plane via "airstairs" to the tarmac, then walked into the terminal at ground-level. I believe Terminal 1 then looked much as it did when first built ( http://departedwings.com/The%20Airports/SAN/San%20Diego.html).
I'm trying to remember when the construction of the second story was started. I do recall some flights when the ground-level gates were a mess due to the construction above. I also remember the first time I went "upstairs" to board via a jetway, though I'm not sure of the date (perhaps in 1977?).
Is this history known or available? My searches have failed to locate it online. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rcunning ( talk • contribs) 17:27, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
If I recall, it was right after the PSA merger with USAir. The west concourse was done first and paid for by USAir. The other was done right after and paid for by United, Continental and TWA. If I recall, the airport leveraged T2 (then 5 or so years new) in order to close each concourse for construction as it could not be done while the gates were in use. There were a lot fewer flights back then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk) 23:48, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
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Does anyone know why the commuter terminal close down? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clrichey ( talk • contribs) 02:49, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
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A quick look at this talk page will reveal the previous intro description of SDIA as "the busiest, most difficult single runway in the world" has met with some controversy over the way it may be interpreted by those without aviation expertise. I have, in the past, defended this description and its placement in the article intro. However, over time I have come to perceive some issues with it. Namely that it is, well, in all likelihood not true.
SDIA is not the busiest single runway in the world. Each of the runways at London Heathrow see more traffic per day than SDIA's, and as noted in the article both Mumbai Airport and London Gatwick are busier in passenger numbers. As for difficulty, SDIA does not have the steepest approach into a commercial airport in the world (both London City Airport and Aspen/Pitkin County Airport are steeper), a variety of airports have shorter landing areas, and several are more well known for challenging tailwinds (such as Madeira Airport). To be the busiest, most difficult single runway in the world sets an extremely high bar, one that veers into hyperbole. This not not helped by the source being an SD community planning group member with no aviation background, nor evidence of having surveyed airports worldwide before proclaiming SDIA as outdoing every other airport on the planet in busyness and difficulty.
But removing all mention of SDIA's landing approach from the intro, as others have suggested, would not be appropriate. It is one of the more distinctive features of the airport, and commonly mentioned in discussions about SDIA. I have attempted to edit the intro into a form which strays clear of dubious opinions and sticks closer to citable facts for which SDIA's landing approach is well known for. Voteins ( talk) 06:15, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
There are editorial claims made in the description of the airport that should be removed. The claim is based on a 10 year old editorial that is not even a mainstream news source. This part should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk) 21:53, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
The claim of "dangerous" comes from the opinion piece used as the source (11), showing clear bias. The rest of the supporting documentation is simply flight procedures and general information, it bolsters nothing. It does not support being "well cited" either. These are contrary to the claim of "well cited". The entire segment of the entry is meant to sensationalize. Orange County is short (5700-feet). Burbank is short (6886-feet). Chicago/Midway is short and difficult due to weather (6522-feet), something San Diego does not encounter. San Diego has a 3.5-degree approach angle, a normal approach angle (See FAA Order 8260.3d - Section 2-6, Approach Category D aircraft - https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/Order_8260.3D_vs3.pdf). Further, Runway 27 now has an RNP approach providing an instrument approach to Runway 27 that was not available before. The airport supports Japan Airlines, Lufthansa and British Airways. If the runway were "short" or "difficult" these airlines wouldn't be operating there. It also wouldn't have an RNP approach.
The poster you have responded to is actually quite correct.
The article used from the LA Times is 30-years old. At the time of the LA Times article, the approach slope to San Diego was 4.6-degrees – arguably the most difficult approach for any commercial airport in the US. This is where much of the claims about San Diego’s difficulties hinge on. The extent of special crew requirements is limited to chart publications regarding terrain and pilot familiarity of close in terrain. Flight procedures once had a notice of erroneous terrain warnings with the GPWS. These notes have since been removed from the procedures. There are also multiple airports on that list that no one seems to consider complex or dangerous like San Francisco, yet it is listed for the very same reason. I'm also unsure that the statement "Sources are not required to be unbiased". That's just weird when it can be condradicted.
Your response states that a 3.2-degrees approach angle disallows precision approaches, this is factually inaccurate. RNPs with 0.1 level tolerances are precision approaches. As per the chart in section 2-6-2 of FAA Order 8260.3, the upper limit is 3.5-degrees, not 3.2. ILS is no longer limited to 3.1-degrees either (the old upper limit - there was never a 3.2-degree limit), and if the FAA wanted to they could probably install one now. No commercial airport I am aware of supports CAT E which is limited to 3.1-degrees. The visibility is controlled by obstacles, likely there is one, that penetrates the 20:1 or 34"1 surface. It has nothing to do with the approach angle.
As a final note, I definitely wouldn’t compare San Diego to Kaitak. It’s simply not a valid comparison for any airport except maybe Toncontin. Kaitak had a curved final segment with a modified ILS system and was incredibly dangerous. That simply isn’t the case with San Diego.
Much of the claims simply do not hold up anymore and are based on dated information that likely doesn’t take into account current conditions.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk • contribs)
I reached out to a former colleague who has this to say regarding SAN:
“On the issue of the threshold displacement for Runway 9 the project served two purposes: It allowed the approach slope to be reduced from 3.22-degrees to 3.1-degrees and the threshold crossing height (TCH) to be reduced from 85-feet to 55-feet. This was prior to the allowance to have a 3.5-degree slope which changed in October 2015. They moved the threshold in 2013. The approach slope for Runway 9 is not controlled by the school as mentioned. The coordinates for the obstacle that controls the approach angle for Runway 9 is located at the following coordinates (32 44 33.96N, 117 13 28.62W). Its height is 238’ MSL. Visibility minimums are standard, however CAT II/III minimums are prevented by a flagpole just west of and near the airport.”
“On Runway 27, there are no trees that play role in the minimums or approach angle. There is a building that controls the approach slope to Runway 27 located at the following coordinates (32 43 40.91N, -117 9 54.67W). Its height is 226’-MSL. The visibility for all approaches is controlled by a telephone pole at the following coordinates (32 43 48.74N, 117 9 53.79"W). The airport has stated that this pole will be removed by the utility company sometime in the future. When this pole its, the RNP minimums will drop to 250-feet and ¾-mile. It’s limited to ¾-mile due to 34:1 penetrations. Localizer minimums will drop to 500-feet and 1-mile.”
“The person appears be confusing space based procedures with conventional procedures. RNP procedures do not have the same terminology as ground based, but RNP .11 is a precision equivalent. RNP .3 is non-precision. A precision approach is one that has horizontal and vertical guidance, period. ILS will not cause the RNAV to go haywire. ILS and RNAV are not interrelated, but they can combined (required to be available) for special minimums. Glideslopes are usable to airports provided the propagation area is clear. If a 3.5-degree slope can be supported, so too can a glideslope component of an ILS. They can even be steeper if needed provided there are no propagation issues. While not under the FAA purview, London City airport uses a 6-degree glideslope. The issue is most likely where to place the glideslope antenna. Typical installations are 300-400-feet from the runway centerline, which would be too close to a taxiway at SAN to allow planes to taxi. Additionally, an RNP and LDA are not interrelated. Performance based approaches are a replacement for precision and non-precision approaches. LDA’s are non-precision as are Localizer minima. The RNP’s at Lindbergh do not require ground aids to be in service for coupling as mentioned above. RNP .11 is a precision equivalent with positive vertical and horizontal guidance to the threshold, it’s an issue of obstacle penetration at SAN controlling visibility. Users to not have to fly the visual segment by hand. Full CAT I approaches are supported by RNP .11. Currently, there is no support for CAT II/III as GBAS is required. This remains under development.”
Also note, below is an old article that describes the 4.5-degree slope for Runway 27 from 1988:
Quote: “At most airports, the angle of approach is 3 degrees. But the terrain around Lindbergh requires a steeper descent of roughly 4.5 degrees, aviation officials said.”
http://articles.latimes.com/1988-04-07/news/mn-1499_1_san-diego-airport — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk) 18:50, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
It should be noted that the difference between a 3.0-degree approach angle and 3.5-degrees is 53-feet at 1-nautical mile, which is negligible. 4.5 would have been 159-feet, clearly providing a challenge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk) 20:59, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
My source is an FAA TERPS Specialist that was based in the Seattle Office that worked specifically on SAN between 2013 and 2015. I will have to insist that your understanding is wholly inaccurate, particularly with regard to what controls the approaches into the airport. It simply doesn't hold up and your avoidance of it is telling, never mind my source which is not an opinion. Its also disingenuous to be dismissive of FAA regulatory guidance in an effort to substantiate your opinion. Finally, I honestly cannot believe that your are holding an opinion piece with higher regard that a news article that lays out the complexity that existed 30 years ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk • contribs)
The changes are published. The approach had a 4.5-degree slope 30 years ago. Today it is 3.5. I provided a source for it above and the current flight procedures are evidence of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk) 21:31, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
References
I watched the documentary you speak of, and unfortunately it just doesn't hold up.
These are far more difficult airports, and any reasonable person would agree they are far more difficult than San Diego:
https://www.travelandleisure.com/airlines-airports/worlds-scariest-airports-landings#norway-sandane-airport https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimdobson/2018/11/08/the-17-most-dangerous-airports-in-the-world-and-why-you-must-experience-them/#15729eda2a8f https://www.baatraining.com/22-most-challenging-runways-in-the-world/ https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/article/the-most-dangerous-airports-in-the-world/ss-AAAdCFd#image=21 https://wanderwisdom.com/transportation/Most-Dangerous-Airports
Further, this article suggests its the 7th safest airport, ironically in the same year as the 2011 documentary:
Suggest the following be added to offer some balance:
“Despite its history of being considered a challenging airport, significant changes have occurred over the years mitigating much of the concerns people have suggested about the airport. Its now even considered one of the top 10 safest airports in the country ( https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/tourism/sdut-how-does-san-diego-fare-on-airport-safety-2011aug03-story.html). The approach slope for Runway 27 was lowered from 4.5-degrees ( http://articles.latimes.com/1988-04-07/news/mn-1499_1_san-diego-airport) to 3.5-degrees in the late 1990s through the use of improved visual guidance equipment ( http://articles.latimes.com/1988-07-23/news/mn-6384_1_parking-garage). In addition, GPS approaches have been added, including an RNP procedure that provides vertical guidance for the first time to Runway 27, similar to an ILS ( https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/procedures/application/?event=procedure.results&nasrId=SAN#searchResultsTop).”
I believe balance is appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk) 20:24, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ca51_filner/20030925airport.html
Jeff Ristine, San Diego Union Tribune, May 3, 2005.
http://www.floatinc.com/Floatport.html
Tobycat 20:29, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
Wasn't there also a proposal at one point to make Mirimar a dual-purpose airport?
Also, someone should add some text discussing the fact that the landing approach to SAN is one of the most challenging because of the rather steep glideslope, built-up downtown, and relatively short runways.
Nsayer 22:30, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
There was a proposal in the early 1980s to have a joint use airport with Tijuana, Mexico. The proposed project was dubbed "Twin-Ports." There would have been an airport built along the border connected by taxiways to Tijuana's existing General Abelardo L. Rodríguez International Airport. The proposal was given some serious consideration, however due to the problems with illegal human and drug trafficking through the border, the idea was scrapped. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Trewells ( talk • contribs) 12:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC-7)
The issue of replacing or relocating SAN will be debated until the end of time. The terrain and lack of land available makes this a moot point. Unlike cities that are located inland, it is impossible to go west because of the ocean, improbable to go south because of the mountains on approach (Brown Field in the South Bay was looked at), improbable to go east because of mountains and/or desert and improbable to go north due to lack of available land. SAN will forever be the airport for San Diego and it will always lack the ability to have regular intercontinental service because weight restrictions and noise restrictions. San Diego would be an ideal city for an alternative point for Asian service but it will never happen because of SAN's size. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
Trewells (
talk •
contribs) 13:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC-7)
I understood Gatwick (UK) to be the world's busiest single-runway airport. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
216.52.215.232 (
talk •
contribs) 17:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC-7)
Gatwick has two runways:
http://gc.kls2.com/airport/LGW
Location City: London, Surrey, England, United Kingdom Name: Gatwick ICAO / IATA: EGKK / LGW
Details Type: Airport (Aerodrome, Airfield) Latitude: 51°08'53"N (51.148056) Longitude: 0°11'25"W (-0.190278) Datum: WGS 1984 Elevation: 202 ft (62 m) Timezone: UTC+0 (DST+1) Runways: 2 Longest: 10364 × 148 ft (3159 × 45 m) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.3.201.43 ( talk • contribs) 09:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC-8)
This message is for the poster with IP address 71.136.142.2. Please adhere to Wikipedia's NPOV policies with respect to your edits about Miramar dual use. Also keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a place for future speculation and opinion, and it is certainly not a place to further agendas. That said, please restrict your additions to this section to facts. Thank you.
-- IRelayer 19:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
SAN technology is used in millions of offices and companies AROUND THE WORLD! The obscure aviators-only code of a second-tier US domestic airport does not hold a candle to it in importance. SAN should point to Storage Area network, because this is en.wikipedia.org, not us.wikipedia.org! 195.70.32.136 17:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The airport code SAN was used before a Storage Area Network was even thought of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.2 ( talk) 18:40, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
The "Relocation proposals" section of this article, in particular the first paragraph, seems rather biased towards making a pro-new airport argument. Sources for various claims such as capacity need to be cited, and I'm not sure how "To claim otherwise is absurd" can pass for non-neutral. Tagged for POV check. -- Hawaiian717 18:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Capacity References:
http://www.san.org/documents/planning/airport_planning/SDBoard_Meeting_FINAL_060704v6.pps
http://www.san.org/documents/planning/airport_planning/SAN_Aviation_Activity_Forecasts_June_04.pdf
Full Relocation Study Data:
http://www.san.org/airport_authority/archives/index.asp
Reference Floating Airport: There is no proof of such "public" interest, only that of a handful of nut jobs who offer no proof that the concept would work and are now trying to push the idea. It was fully rejected by the Airport Authroity on merits so unless they plan on building it themselves, it's not happening as the Airport Authrity is the controlling agency. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
75.3.201.43 (
talk •
contribs) 10:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC-8)
London Gatwick has 2 runways, according to London Gatwick Airport-- Arado 09:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Are we absolutly sure that Virgin Atlantic Airways will start service to San Diego in 2008. All of their aircraft are long haul wide-body aircraft and the largest plane that I know of that can land and stop at SAN effectively is the Boeing 767. Other planes however can land, but must come in at the lowest manuverable speed. So all I'm saying is, would Virgin Atlantic be able to service this airport? And London Gatwick has a maintenence runway for backup if there is an accident on the main runway. 76.88.107.42 23:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Virgin America Service is confirmed as starting 2/12/2008 - I think someone got this confused w/ Virgin Atlantic... a search of the internet returns NO confirmation or rumor of service to KSAN... DELETED —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.239.162.58 ( talk • contribs) 16:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC-8)
San Diego made the 2006 list for the top 30 busiest airports in the United States, with a rank of 30. The ranking was determined by the amount of passengers that pass through the airport annually. San Diego International was ranked #1 on the list of the busiest uni-runway airports in the United States. -- Press208 00:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The article claims that arrivals are allowed in the airport at all times. However, I was on a flight that was diverted to Ontario because a delay pushed the landing after 11:30 PM. Can we get claification on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.126.148 ( talk) 20:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I don´t know how to edit these but CMH, PIT, and soon CLE have to be removed. More importantly, I think these maps can create confusion between non-stop and direct destinations. For example, MEX is a one-stop (SJD), direct, no-plane-change AM destination. It might lead some readers to believe that it is a non-stop destination due to the way it is shown here. I suggest that we either fix this error (but there may be others like it) or replace the map with one similar to the one on the O'Hare page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.217.122.249 ( talk) 16:01, 2 September 2008
I think the wording of this section needs to be changed because it sounds misleading. Tijuana's airport's existence does not depend solely on the lack of international flights from San Diego. Rather, it serves the more than one million people who live there and on the side, it handles many Southern Californians, most of whom are headed to Mexican destinations since the domestic (Mexican) flights offered from TIJ are cheaper and more convenient (non-stop, etc) than international ones departing from the US. Furthermore, I suggest shifting the information about flights to Tokyo and Shanghai to go after the Mexican destinations. Currently, it sounds as if its primary focus is intercontinental flights when in reality it is domestic (Mexican) flights. In fact, part of the reason why Tijuana has intercontinental flights is Mexico City's high altitude which diminishes the performance of aircraft, thus requiring a fuel stop-over on the way to Asia. Deus Caritas Est ( talk) 23:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Why is Tijuana even listed under SAN? It is not an alternate airport to SAN. It's in another country and there is not any sign of a partnership between the organizations that operate the airports. Furthermore, no US carrier is goign to set up shop there creating a secondary market for San Diego. It could be refered to as a nearby commerical airport, but certainly not an alternate. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
209.203.104.162 (
talk)
18:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Tijuana International Airport is listed as an alternate because it is right next door. Literally, the airport is right on the border. Easy access for Americans. There are even shuttle bus services running between the US and TIJ. Because of the close proximity to SAN, it can be more of an option for San Diegans than John Wayne Airport in Orange County. Also, information about flights to Narita was changed because this is no longer the case unfortunately, at least on Aeromexico like the article used to mention. Flights to Narita or Shanghai are primarily routed through either Mexico City or Los Angeles (LAX). -- Uncle Bex ( talk) 20:37, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
But its not an alternate airport because its in another country. You can't even divert a plane there from SAN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.159.229.128 ( talk) 04:36, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Convair built passenger jets at Lindbergh Field in the 1950s and 1960s. Check Convair 880 and Convair 990. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.151.197 ( talk) 03:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I think it should be noted that Lindbergh Field is the only airport that I know of that sets aside a portion of its infield as a seasonal nesting area for an endangered species called the California Least Tern. 68.111.246.29 ( talk) 01:35, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I have recently reverted information removal by an IP user. The user did not provide an edit summary for the two edits that were made, and did not give a good reason why the information should be removed. If that IP user would like to discuss improving the article by removing said information I would like to provide this section for that discussion. Thank you. -- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 08:43, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I've reverted runway usage quite a few times by people who keep quoting that one pilot-column writer in USA Today that SAN goes to east runway in fog. For the record, there is dense fog this morning and SAN is in 9/27 operation until the ceiling goes up to 700 feet or so. If there's any doubt, looking up flight tracks and ATC recordings (publicly available on the internet) for Monday morning, April 26, 2010 will be more reliable than one pilot. HkCaGu ( talk) 13:41, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the last edit. A lot of that information isn´t necesary though a half sentence sumary makes the paragraph stronger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shabidoo ( talk • contribs) 12:58, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
I've been in line on the runway with mediocre fog and had them start switching operations. It is actually pretty interesting when they have planes taking off towards and the east, and west, and landing from the east and west. venomgyz ( talk) 07:49, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Also gave a better explaination of the reverse flow.
SAN is in east to west flow below 2 miles vis for 27. Some carriers will use 27 for departures due to weight penalties while everyone else uses 9 for arrivals and departures. This occurs about 6% fo the time at the airport (one day where the vis was marginal isn't very reliable either). Also cleaned up new approach info, and delcared distance info that was recently published in the charts Ruwnay 9 is now 1,121 feet shorter than runway 27 mathematically, but not physically. Under "Relocation" the sentence stated that the airport claimesd it would reach capacity in 2015-2022. That's not what the source says. What is says is that it will be constrained, meaning congested. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.159.229.128 ( talk) 04:28, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
There is no ILS approach from the east. I think this is useful information that should be included on the wiki. This is one of the reasons why during fog conditions they will require reverse operations. In fact, even during bad weather, if you can not spot the runway within a certain threshold a pilot is required to declare a missed approach. You can see the specifications here: http://www.airnav.com/airport/KSAN
venomgyz ( talk) 07:52, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
This is inaccurate: Gatwick is also single-use and carries nearly twice as many passengers. Equally, when I was checking the CAA Statistics on 2010 airport use I saw that London Stansted (also single-runway) carried 18,562,000 passengers in 2010 Link here- more than the 18.3m quoted for San Diego in this article. Any suggestions on that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.17.22 ( talk) 16:35, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
What you are saying is innacurate. San Diego had 18.9 million passengers in 2010 not 18.3 million. It was listed that San Diego was the second busiest behind Gatwick, which it still is (even though Gatwick technically has two runways) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.2 ( talk) 22:31, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
San Diego also has about 40,000 annual operations more than Standsted. In 2010, San Diego had over 190,937 operations where Standsted had 155,140. Therefore, San Diego is busier in terms of operations and passengers than Standsted. http://www.san.org/sdia/at_the_airport/education/airport_statistics.aspx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.2 ( talk) 18:17, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Removed "viewing area" section. It talked about people viewing planes then went off on a strange tangent about Miramar and the military that made no sense at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.2 ( talk) 22:38, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
It appears from the departure proceedure charts that the obstruction issue is improved a slightly. Updated this info. Could be a result of the airport wanting to improve the capability for British Airways that operates with a weight penalty. The 777-200ER has a Max takeoff weight of 656,000-pounds for 5,000 miles but it's limited to about 600k at SAN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.3.206.245 ( talk) 03:22, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
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I see that the name "Lindbergh Field" has been removed from the lead section. This appears to be in violation of the guideline WP:OTHERNAMES. The name can be verified in multiple reliable sources and should be re-added. What are your thoughts on this @ MelanieN:?-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 06:01, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
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When I first arrived in San Diego in April of 1975, I departed the plane via "airstairs" to the tarmac, then walked into the terminal at ground-level. I believe Terminal 1 then looked much as it did when first built ( http://departedwings.com/The%20Airports/SAN/San%20Diego.html).
I'm trying to remember when the construction of the second story was started. I do recall some flights when the ground-level gates were a mess due to the construction above. I also remember the first time I went "upstairs" to board via a jetway, though I'm not sure of the date (perhaps in 1977?).
Is this history known or available? My searches have failed to locate it online. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rcunning ( talk • contribs) 17:27, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
If I recall, it was right after the PSA merger with USAir. The west concourse was done first and paid for by USAir. The other was done right after and paid for by United, Continental and TWA. If I recall, the airport leveraged T2 (then 5 or so years new) in order to close each concourse for construction as it could not be done while the gates were in use. There were a lot fewer flights back then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.69.234.16 ( talk) 23:48, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:10, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Does anyone know why the commuter terminal close down? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clrichey ( talk • contribs) 02:49, 23 February 2020 (UTC)