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I deleted the Soviet spy accusation - there were NO direct citations, sources, or even details; just a bald statement as fact, and an acceptance of a single source as definitive. Uh uh. -- Calton | Talk 00:41, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Alas he was a spy. The details on his career as a Soviet spy appear in The Haunted Wood, pp 140-50, based on the KGB archives. Even strong anti-anti-communists agree that he was a spy. For example, Ellen Schrecker agrees. See her review in The Nation (May 24 1999) online at [ [2]] She says "the KGB pay New York Congressman Samuel Dickstein thousands of dollars for inside information" and notes that he did not deliver much of value. Most historians think he did it mostly for the money. Further corroboration from Alan Theoharis another liberal historian can be found at [ [3]]
You can find a summary on p 156 in The Complete Idiot's Guide to Spies and Espionage by Rodney P Carlisle (2003) which is partly online at books.google.com at [ [4]]
Both of ya'll are selectively quoting. If one reads Miss Schrecker article carefully, while she does say there are problems with how the KGB files were accessed, she beleives that much of the info in them is genuine. She quotes the part about dickstein without any specific disapporval.-- Dudeman5685 05:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC) Another leading historian is Harvey Klehr; he says Dickstein was a spy in Morality and Politics v 21 p 156, which is online at books.google.com at
[ [5]]
I believe all historians who have looked into it agree that he was a spy, so it's hardly a POV anymore. certainly the encyclopedia should report the consensus among scholars that he spent several years as a paid Soviet spy at $1250 a month. The $1250, by the way, was about the average ANNUAL wage for workers in 1937 so this was real nice money. It's probably true that he cheated the Soviets...one suspects his integrity.
Rjensen 05:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Rather odd here that people will have total faith in the weirdest stories (Butler-as-dictator) and yet distrust the Archivist of the United States, who was confirmed by the Senate last year. The idea that the Soviets faked their archives? That Weinstein faked archives so that he could attack a forgotten Congressman?? That the Kremlin did not try to get a spy in Congress? What next: no spies at Los Alamos? The problem here is the critics don't have a sense of history. They buy one outlandish theory without blinking and deny documentary evidence they don't like. When the entire history profession agrees on a point they say, the conspiracy is just HUGE... But remember this is an encyclopedia and when all the scholars in fact agree, we need to say so. Rjensen 16:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
JJstroker 00:10, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
If the espionage claims are true, perhaps the article should reflect a little on the irony of it all. A founder of what became the House Committee on un-American Activities turns out to be -what is a neutral description?- to be a person who accepted money from Stalin's Soviet Russia in exchange for information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.149.136.2 ( talk) 17:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Not on the same plane of interest as whether he was a spy, but I question the statement that Dickstein graduated from "the New York City Law School." I know that this statement is to be found in the Congressional Biographical Directory, but even Homer nods, and I am not familiar with any institution by that name, past or present. Does anyone know whether Dickstein might have actually graduated from New York Law School or the New York University School of Law or another institution? Newyorkbrad 01:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
A significant number of books (not just one) now make the "allegation" that a person who was paid for many years by the Soviets was, indeed, a Soviet agent. Cheers - some more refs added to make this all fairly clear. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 18:46, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
Surely the problem here is that we have a case where the existing vocabulary is inadequate to describe reality. It's that old "to be" problem again.
The word "spy" conjures up the image of someone finding out military or quasi-military secrets and passing them on to a foreign power. In this sense, Jonathan Pollard is a spy.
But is, for example, a Chinese dissident who passes on information to an American reporter about Chinese government cover-ups of environmental disasters, a "spy"? The Chinese state will certainly call him one, but I think we need a richer vocabulary for such people.
My own guess is that Mr Dickstein, like many liberals of the time, saw the Soviets as allies in a war against a deadly enemy, world fascism. This didn't mean that he necessarily wanted a Soviet America, or even approved of everything that was happening in the Soviet Union. (A useful analogy might be the attitude of many American conservatives towards the 'death squad' governments of Latin America a couple of decades ago, when they were exterminating communists. It's not that conservatives necessarily personally approved of the wholesale rape, torture and murder of young radicals, trade unionists, and peasants ... it's just that, in a war, you don't have control over your allies. How many leftists took any interest in the mass rapes by the Red Army as it moved into Germany?)
Of course, if we could get access to the NKVD archives, we might know if Mr Dickstein passed on any information other than details of American fascists and their organizations, such as American military secrets. That would justify calling him a "spy".
In any case, I propose removing the last sentence from this article, which is pointless information. It would be like saying "As of [current date] no one has proposed changing the name of [public school named after Robert E Lee or any other Confederate leader] to someone who was not a slave-owning insurrectionist traitor to his country."Doug1943 13:50, 16 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug1943 ( talk • contribs)
The result of the move request was: moved. Number 5 7 18:40, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
– Per pageviews and Google book results, this subject seems like the clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in regards to the name "Samuel Dickstein" versus the subject at Samuel Dickstein (mathematician). (Note: The page currently at Samuel Dickstein is a disambiguation page with only two entries, so this move request would probably require that page to be deleted.) Steel1943 ( talk) 05:41, 17 August 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:17, 24 August 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 23:18, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I deleted the Soviet spy accusation - there were NO direct citations, sources, or even details; just a bald statement as fact, and an acceptance of a single source as definitive. Uh uh. -- Calton | Talk 00:41, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Alas he was a spy. The details on his career as a Soviet spy appear in The Haunted Wood, pp 140-50, based on the KGB archives. Even strong anti-anti-communists agree that he was a spy. For example, Ellen Schrecker agrees. See her review in The Nation (May 24 1999) online at [ [2]] She says "the KGB pay New York Congressman Samuel Dickstein thousands of dollars for inside information" and notes that he did not deliver much of value. Most historians think he did it mostly for the money. Further corroboration from Alan Theoharis another liberal historian can be found at [ [3]]
You can find a summary on p 156 in The Complete Idiot's Guide to Spies and Espionage by Rodney P Carlisle (2003) which is partly online at books.google.com at [ [4]]
Both of ya'll are selectively quoting. If one reads Miss Schrecker article carefully, while she does say there are problems with how the KGB files were accessed, she beleives that much of the info in them is genuine. She quotes the part about dickstein without any specific disapporval.-- Dudeman5685 05:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC) Another leading historian is Harvey Klehr; he says Dickstein was a spy in Morality and Politics v 21 p 156, which is online at books.google.com at
[ [5]]
I believe all historians who have looked into it agree that he was a spy, so it's hardly a POV anymore. certainly the encyclopedia should report the consensus among scholars that he spent several years as a paid Soviet spy at $1250 a month. The $1250, by the way, was about the average ANNUAL wage for workers in 1937 so this was real nice money. It's probably true that he cheated the Soviets...one suspects his integrity.
Rjensen 05:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Rather odd here that people will have total faith in the weirdest stories (Butler-as-dictator) and yet distrust the Archivist of the United States, who was confirmed by the Senate last year. The idea that the Soviets faked their archives? That Weinstein faked archives so that he could attack a forgotten Congressman?? That the Kremlin did not try to get a spy in Congress? What next: no spies at Los Alamos? The problem here is the critics don't have a sense of history. They buy one outlandish theory without blinking and deny documentary evidence they don't like. When the entire history profession agrees on a point they say, the conspiracy is just HUGE... But remember this is an encyclopedia and when all the scholars in fact agree, we need to say so. Rjensen 16:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
JJstroker 00:10, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
If the espionage claims are true, perhaps the article should reflect a little on the irony of it all. A founder of what became the House Committee on un-American Activities turns out to be -what is a neutral description?- to be a person who accepted money from Stalin's Soviet Russia in exchange for information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.149.136.2 ( talk) 17:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Not on the same plane of interest as whether he was a spy, but I question the statement that Dickstein graduated from "the New York City Law School." I know that this statement is to be found in the Congressional Biographical Directory, but even Homer nods, and I am not familiar with any institution by that name, past or present. Does anyone know whether Dickstein might have actually graduated from New York Law School or the New York University School of Law or another institution? Newyorkbrad 01:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
A significant number of books (not just one) now make the "allegation" that a person who was paid for many years by the Soviets was, indeed, a Soviet agent. Cheers - some more refs added to make this all fairly clear. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 18:46, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
Surely the problem here is that we have a case where the existing vocabulary is inadequate to describe reality. It's that old "to be" problem again.
The word "spy" conjures up the image of someone finding out military or quasi-military secrets and passing them on to a foreign power. In this sense, Jonathan Pollard is a spy.
But is, for example, a Chinese dissident who passes on information to an American reporter about Chinese government cover-ups of environmental disasters, a "spy"? The Chinese state will certainly call him one, but I think we need a richer vocabulary for such people.
My own guess is that Mr Dickstein, like many liberals of the time, saw the Soviets as allies in a war against a deadly enemy, world fascism. This didn't mean that he necessarily wanted a Soviet America, or even approved of everything that was happening in the Soviet Union. (A useful analogy might be the attitude of many American conservatives towards the 'death squad' governments of Latin America a couple of decades ago, when they were exterminating communists. It's not that conservatives necessarily personally approved of the wholesale rape, torture and murder of young radicals, trade unionists, and peasants ... it's just that, in a war, you don't have control over your allies. How many leftists took any interest in the mass rapes by the Red Army as it moved into Germany?)
Of course, if we could get access to the NKVD archives, we might know if Mr Dickstein passed on any information other than details of American fascists and their organizations, such as American military secrets. That would justify calling him a "spy".
In any case, I propose removing the last sentence from this article, which is pointless information. It would be like saying "As of [current date] no one has proposed changing the name of [public school named after Robert E Lee or any other Confederate leader] to someone who was not a slave-owning insurrectionist traitor to his country."Doug1943 13:50, 16 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug1943 ( talk • contribs)
The result of the move request was: moved. Number 5 7 18:40, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
– Per pageviews and Google book results, this subject seems like the clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in regards to the name "Samuel Dickstein" versus the subject at Samuel Dickstein (mathematician). (Note: The page currently at Samuel Dickstein is a disambiguation page with only two entries, so this move request would probably require that page to be deleted.) Steel1943 ( talk) 05:41, 17 August 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:17, 24 August 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 23:18, 1 September 2020 (UTC)