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The problems with this article are numerous, and it should at least receive some kind of warning for inaccuracy or stub until it is revised. Starting with the division into Early and Later Life, the article lacks structure. More problematically, its style is colloquial ("not Shakespeare's Avon" - WTF), and it presents pure conjecture as fact ("Shakespeare was one of the friends allowed to visit him" ! where does that come from?). Moreover, it cites and quotes from other works without giving due reference. Who is "Fuller"? Where does Coleridge praise Daniel? All this - I guess - is due to the material taken from the Encyclopedia Britannica, but since it also incorporates up-to-date references, and does never warn (i.e., "Hugh, writing in 1911 thought that, ..."), this article is hardly usable at all. Someone with knowledge on Daniel should revise this. Meanwhile, I've added a link to the better material on poetryfoundation.com biography. grovel ( talk) 13:59, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
Hello. I am also a PhD student of English Renaissance literature and Daniel was not the first English poet to use terza rima. Wyatt had used it for his satires some 50 years prior. And of course the Countess of Pembroke herself, in her translation of Petrarch's Trionfi, i.e. Triumph of Death. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jorgebenjor ( talk • contribs) 23:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Can the PhD students answer Grovel's questions about the authority for saying Shakespeare visited Daniel and who Fuller is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.126.125 ( talk) 14:55, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Fuller is Thomas Fuller, who published in 1662 a History of the Worthies of England. An interesting and enjoyable, but not very reliable, source. The story about Shakespeare visiting Daniel is most likely apocryphal. I have not found any reliable source for it and the earliest reference I have found to it is in an 1899 article in Archaeological Journal by Albert Harthshorne, "Samuel Daniel and Anne Clifford, Countess of Pembroke, Dorset, and Montgomery". Musophilus ( talk) 04:04, 27 October 2017 (UTC) Musophilus
I have completely rewritten this article on Samuel Daniel, as the prior one was incomplete and inaccurate. I hope that no one minds, but if anyone is missing something that was in the prior article, let me know and I will try to put it back. I kept a copy of the article as it existed before I started editing it. In any case, please do feel free to offer me feedback on the article and suggestions for changes/corrections. Or feel free to just go make revisions yourself. This is my first time writing a Wikipedia article, so I am very open to feedback. Musophilus ( talk) 20:15, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Musophilus: As you've probably noticed, I've linked a few of your references to scans at JSTOR and Internet Archive. For a few of your references, I've only found scans of a different edition of the source. For example, I've found IA scans of Duncan-Jones's edition of Sonnets in the 1997 and 2001 printings (which I am aware have slightly different content from your cited edition). My suggestion is that I collect these "questionable edition" links here on the talk page, then you evaluate if they're suitable for the citations you require, and if so, move them back to the main space. Now, you've already located reliable sources and cited them properly, so you're under absolutely no obligation to play my little game. But if you're willing, I think the article will be a little more useful to any reader who might wish to follow your tracks, or to read further. Cheers. Phil wink ( talk) 23:23, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
As becomes clear in the article, there is an interesting and complex relationship between Daniel's works and his publications. The main article, I believe, presents the correct frame, that is, listing and describing the works. However, in case, either here or in a future article, the publications should need more elucidation, below are all the publications through 1623 that I found at Internet Archive. Obviously, this list is very partial. I intended to supplement these with Google Books, but found no additional books there. Phil wink ( talk) 03:53, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Phil wink: I am confused by your change to the lead section, especially the aspect that ends up leaving brackets around [the sixteenth]. First off, I had put in the year and title of the C.S.Lewis book for a number of reasons. Stylistically, I thought that the opening section flowed better by putting something in between the names "Samuel Taylor Coleridge and William Wordsworth" and "C.S. Lewis", so that it looked less like a list of the three of them together. If one is reading quickly, in the current version I believe it does come across as one continuous list. Additionally, I wanted to make clear that the Lewis quote was from the 20th century (not everyone knows who Lewis is and for those who do, not everyone knows when he wrote) and to make clear that the quote came from a book of criticism on English Literature. Many people do not know that Lewis wrote literary criticism and they associate him, of course, mostly with his fantasy series. In any case, those are stylistic issues and if you believe that taking the title and year out make the lead section more user friendly or more conforming to WP guidelines, I'm happy to let that stand.
More importantly, I do not think it is correct to show the sentence as you have shown it: C.S. Lewis called Daniel "the most interesting man of letters whom [the sixteenth] century produced in England." The actual original quote from Lewis is: "the most interesting man of letters whom that century produced in England." If we do not put back the title of the book, which makes clear that he is referring to the sixteenth century, then I think the sentence should read using one of the choices below:
As the concluding sentence of the lead paragraph, I see this as a fairly important sentence. So I would like to leave it as clear and uncluttered as possible. My preference is to put back the name of the book (and year) and leave it as it was. If that is considered awkward for some reason, my next favorite choice is the second one I've shown above. Although a bit cluttered with extra quotation marks, it does not include the brackets that look quite awkward to me and I think are daunting to the average reader, almost warning them that this is going to be a complicated, obscure, and obtuse article (which, unfortunately by necessity, in some ways it is).
Thoughts?
Currently, the Works section seems pretty inclusive, but I notice it does not include The Vision of the Twelve Goddesses or Tethys' Festival, which to me seem notable enough to list, especially since they are pieces that were actually produced. NB: they both in fact already have WP entries, which I've now linked. Phil wink ( talk) 18:04, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on October 14, 2021. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The problems with this article are numerous, and it should at least receive some kind of warning for inaccuracy or stub until it is revised. Starting with the division into Early and Later Life, the article lacks structure. More problematically, its style is colloquial ("not Shakespeare's Avon" - WTF), and it presents pure conjecture as fact ("Shakespeare was one of the friends allowed to visit him" ! where does that come from?). Moreover, it cites and quotes from other works without giving due reference. Who is "Fuller"? Where does Coleridge praise Daniel? All this - I guess - is due to the material taken from the Encyclopedia Britannica, but since it also incorporates up-to-date references, and does never warn (i.e., "Hugh, writing in 1911 thought that, ..."), this article is hardly usable at all. Someone with knowledge on Daniel should revise this. Meanwhile, I've added a link to the better material on poetryfoundation.com biography. grovel ( talk) 13:59, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
Hello. I am also a PhD student of English Renaissance literature and Daniel was not the first English poet to use terza rima. Wyatt had used it for his satires some 50 years prior. And of course the Countess of Pembroke herself, in her translation of Petrarch's Trionfi, i.e. Triumph of Death. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jorgebenjor ( talk • contribs) 23:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Can the PhD students answer Grovel's questions about the authority for saying Shakespeare visited Daniel and who Fuller is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.126.125 ( talk) 14:55, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Fuller is Thomas Fuller, who published in 1662 a History of the Worthies of England. An interesting and enjoyable, but not very reliable, source. The story about Shakespeare visiting Daniel is most likely apocryphal. I have not found any reliable source for it and the earliest reference I have found to it is in an 1899 article in Archaeological Journal by Albert Harthshorne, "Samuel Daniel and Anne Clifford, Countess of Pembroke, Dorset, and Montgomery". Musophilus ( talk) 04:04, 27 October 2017 (UTC) Musophilus
I have completely rewritten this article on Samuel Daniel, as the prior one was incomplete and inaccurate. I hope that no one minds, but if anyone is missing something that was in the prior article, let me know and I will try to put it back. I kept a copy of the article as it existed before I started editing it. In any case, please do feel free to offer me feedback on the article and suggestions for changes/corrections. Or feel free to just go make revisions yourself. This is my first time writing a Wikipedia article, so I am very open to feedback. Musophilus ( talk) 20:15, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Musophilus: As you've probably noticed, I've linked a few of your references to scans at JSTOR and Internet Archive. For a few of your references, I've only found scans of a different edition of the source. For example, I've found IA scans of Duncan-Jones's edition of Sonnets in the 1997 and 2001 printings (which I am aware have slightly different content from your cited edition). My suggestion is that I collect these "questionable edition" links here on the talk page, then you evaluate if they're suitable for the citations you require, and if so, move them back to the main space. Now, you've already located reliable sources and cited them properly, so you're under absolutely no obligation to play my little game. But if you're willing, I think the article will be a little more useful to any reader who might wish to follow your tracks, or to read further. Cheers. Phil wink ( talk) 23:23, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
As becomes clear in the article, there is an interesting and complex relationship between Daniel's works and his publications. The main article, I believe, presents the correct frame, that is, listing and describing the works. However, in case, either here or in a future article, the publications should need more elucidation, below are all the publications through 1623 that I found at Internet Archive. Obviously, this list is very partial. I intended to supplement these with Google Books, but found no additional books there. Phil wink ( talk) 03:53, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Phil wink: I am confused by your change to the lead section, especially the aspect that ends up leaving brackets around [the sixteenth]. First off, I had put in the year and title of the C.S.Lewis book for a number of reasons. Stylistically, I thought that the opening section flowed better by putting something in between the names "Samuel Taylor Coleridge and William Wordsworth" and "C.S. Lewis", so that it looked less like a list of the three of them together. If one is reading quickly, in the current version I believe it does come across as one continuous list. Additionally, I wanted to make clear that the Lewis quote was from the 20th century (not everyone knows who Lewis is and for those who do, not everyone knows when he wrote) and to make clear that the quote came from a book of criticism on English Literature. Many people do not know that Lewis wrote literary criticism and they associate him, of course, mostly with his fantasy series. In any case, those are stylistic issues and if you believe that taking the title and year out make the lead section more user friendly or more conforming to WP guidelines, I'm happy to let that stand.
More importantly, I do not think it is correct to show the sentence as you have shown it: C.S. Lewis called Daniel "the most interesting man of letters whom [the sixteenth] century produced in England." The actual original quote from Lewis is: "the most interesting man of letters whom that century produced in England." If we do not put back the title of the book, which makes clear that he is referring to the sixteenth century, then I think the sentence should read using one of the choices below:
As the concluding sentence of the lead paragraph, I see this as a fairly important sentence. So I would like to leave it as clear and uncluttered as possible. My preference is to put back the name of the book (and year) and leave it as it was. If that is considered awkward for some reason, my next favorite choice is the second one I've shown above. Although a bit cluttered with extra quotation marks, it does not include the brackets that look quite awkward to me and I think are daunting to the average reader, almost warning them that this is going to be a complicated, obscure, and obtuse article (which, unfortunately by necessity, in some ways it is).
Thoughts?
Currently, the Works section seems pretty inclusive, but I notice it does not include The Vision of the Twelve Goddesses or Tethys' Festival, which to me seem notable enough to list, especially since they are pieces that were actually produced. NB: they both in fact already have WP entries, which I've now linked. Phil wink ( talk) 18:04, 30 May 2021 (UTC)