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An unnamed contributor place a skeptical comment about Qu'ran flushing, in the middle of a summary of Al Hajj's lawyer's account of his experiences. That unsubstantiated assertion was, in my opinion, inappropriately placed. I removed it. No reasonable person would question that a place could be found for quoting a credible source that expressed skepticism about the Qu'ran flushing. The middle of the summary of Smith's account is not the right place. And the original unnamed contributor didn't provide a source. Another contributor felt they should restore the oriignal skeptical comment, in its original inappropriate place. They added three links, which they say substantiate skepticism as to whether it was possible to flush a qu'ran.
I still believe the location is inappropriate. And those three sources are not credible sources that substantiate the original assertion.
By all means add skeptical comments to the article, but in a more appropriate place. And those skeptical comments shouldn't attribute the skepticism to "some critics". Further links that are said to substantiate the assertion should actually substantiate it. -- Geo Swan 19:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
According to the prisoner 345 page, owned by al jazeera, "The Qu’ran was thrown in the toilet in front of him." [3] It doesn't say it was flushed, for what it's worth. 71.246.241.195 ( talk) 18:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about that. Not sure how it happened but the code is still there. Can anyone fix it?
Fixed.
Did you mean to use a link to one of Al-Jazeera's Arabic pages as a reference? [4] When a reference doesn't include the title and date it makes it impossible to look for a mirror, if the main link goes dead. So, I tried the link to find the title and date. But, I don't speak Arabic.
Cheers! -- Geo Swan 06:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
It's so obvious that this was part of the propaganda campaign unleashed against the Western World.
Has anyone ever tried to FLUSH A BOOK DOWN THE TOILET? It would be physically impossible, as books are larger than the pipes in a toilet.
This allegation in the article should be listed as such: an unfounded allegation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.131.184.152 ( talk) 05:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC).
Whether it is an unfounded allegation or not is irrelevant. Wikipedia documents his allegation, not whether or not it is true.-- 109.59.150.9 ( talk) 23:40, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
If you take it LITERALLY, yes, it seems to be not possible. More probably the guards have torn out the pages, throwing them piece for piece in the toilet. You see, more funs for the Marines who run this "prison". -- 84.141.50.97 ( talk) 10:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Obviously, some people are eager to take the words "flushing a book down the toilet" literally, simply to discredit the facts and put some dense fog over them. There is so much video and photographic evidence on the net where a Koran is abused, that this incident seems true. What I am missing in this article: Bush and his camarilla are planning to give themselves and others immunity for each war crime (like this) committed in Iraq. But my English is not good enough to work that out. -- 84.141.33.125 ( talk) 14:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I clipped a comment. It was in a section that quoted from the 2005 Summary of Evidence (ARB) memos. It was made to look like the factors from that memo. Innocently, no doubt, but also innappropriately.
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 00:33, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikidates are great, in general. But I believe correcting quoted material to use them is a mistake. Quoted material should be left "as-is". Readers may want to search the web on it. If so using wikidates can cause those searches to fail.
That is bad.
So I removed the wikidating.
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 01:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The fact that transliteration of Arabic symbols to the Latin alphabet is imprecise and often produces many possible results suggests to me that Section 1 (Identity) would be at best reduced to 2 possible spellings of Hajj's name (as at Taj El-Din Hilaly). There is no source given for any confusion over Hajj's identity only sources for different latinizations of his name. And this doesn't deserve a section to itself. SmithBlue ( talk) 05:51, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
According to Large denominations of United States currency there are believed to be only about 300 $10,000 bills in circulation. As collectibles I would think their condition would be very important. Is there evidence that there were really 22 of them tucked under his wife's belly? Surely this is some mis-translation. $2200 in a money belt seems more believable. Wnt ( talk) 00:17, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Another contributor removed an image I added, with the edit summary: "Undid revision 339208005 by Geo Swan (talk) no good reason given for the inclusion of this image".
Sami al-Hajj is a hunger striker who: drew some striking illustrations, including one depicting himself as a skeleton being force-fed. "My picture reflects my nightmares of what I must look like with my head double-strapped down, a tube in my nose, a black mask over my mouth, with no eyes and only giant cheekbones", he said.
I think this image is entirely appropriate for this article.
If the other contributor did not understand that Al Hajj was a hunger striker who had been strapped into the restraint chair for his force-feedings I suggest it would have been wiser to have, politely, initiated a discussion over their concern -- rather than just excise the material they didn't understand.
In my experience this kind of radical excision too often serves as a trigger to an edit war. I won't immediately revert this excision. I'll wait to see whether the other contributor has other arguments for the excision. But I call on them to make a greater to refrain from treating the wikipedia like a battleground. Geo Swan ( talk) 03:32, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I recently started an article on the Guantanamo hunger strikes. We already have an article on hunger strikes, throughout the ages, including suffragists, and the IRA. It has a section on Guantanamo. Looking at it I can see that that section is very out of date, unreferenced, and, frankly poorly written. I checked. I wrote much of that section. I wrote it four years ago, when I was less experienced, and when the wikipedia's standards, and my personal standards were lower.
I think the Guantanamo section of the hunger striker article should be improved. And I think the Guantanamo hunger strikes and hunger strikers merit an article of their own. After some work, I think this article will become much larger than it is now.
As I was working on the Guantanamo hunger strikes article I started looking at other articles that referred to the hunger strikes or hunger strikers, because they might be citing references about the hunger strike that could be re-used in the Guantanamo hunger strikes article. And, while doing so, I changed links from " hunger strike" to " Guantanamo hunger strike".
Another contributor asked me to stop -- for discussion I thought. They told me they planned to suggest merging the new article into the " hunger strikes" article. I thought I would wait for them to initiate that discussion -- or another discussion, if they thought they had a better idea, before I made any more of those changes in article space.
Instead of that discussion they reverted my change in the wikilink here.
I think if someone has a concern they should:
But, for crying out loud, if you have a concern, don't just hint at it, and then start reverting the other party, skipping the attempt to explain yourself and work towards a compromise. Geo Swan ( talk) 04:31, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia citation guidlines, "When quoting a source in a different language, please provide both the original-language quotation and an English translation, in the text, in a footnote, or on the talk page as appropriate." There is no such English translation for the citation : ^ a b "لجنة حماية الصحفيين قلقة إزاء تدهور صحة الحاج". Al Jazeera. March 6, 2007. http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/49B71E20-FDC0-4B51-A1D9-1CFB0ACA2D10.htm. Retrieved 2007-03-07. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BJ Crowning ( talk • contribs) 19:29, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Official documents the United States Department of Defense has released gave the latinized version of Al Hajj's name as Sami Mohy El Din Muhammed Al Hajj [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] except for one document released in September 2007. [10]
References
DoDList2
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).CsrtSummaryOfEvidenceSamiMohyElDinMuhammedAlHajj
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).ArbSummaryOfEvidenceSamiAlHajj
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite web}}
: |pages=
has extra text (
help)
Reworked much of the former weirdness of this article, with some help from User:IQinn. There's room for expansion with regards to Al Hajj's treatment at Gitmo.-- 109.59.150.9 ( talk) 04:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
His file has been released in today's batch. It claims he's a member of al-Qaida and Taliban, among other things. Quite an interesting read. -- 91.32.72.83 ( talk) 11:31, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
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An unnamed contributor place a skeptical comment about Qu'ran flushing, in the middle of a summary of Al Hajj's lawyer's account of his experiences. That unsubstantiated assertion was, in my opinion, inappropriately placed. I removed it. No reasonable person would question that a place could be found for quoting a credible source that expressed skepticism about the Qu'ran flushing. The middle of the summary of Smith's account is not the right place. And the original unnamed contributor didn't provide a source. Another contributor felt they should restore the oriignal skeptical comment, in its original inappropriate place. They added three links, which they say substantiate skepticism as to whether it was possible to flush a qu'ran.
I still believe the location is inappropriate. And those three sources are not credible sources that substantiate the original assertion.
By all means add skeptical comments to the article, but in a more appropriate place. And those skeptical comments shouldn't attribute the skepticism to "some critics". Further links that are said to substantiate the assertion should actually substantiate it. -- Geo Swan 19:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
According to the prisoner 345 page, owned by al jazeera, "The Qu’ran was thrown in the toilet in front of him." [3] It doesn't say it was flushed, for what it's worth. 71.246.241.195 ( talk) 18:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about that. Not sure how it happened but the code is still there. Can anyone fix it?
Fixed.
Did you mean to use a link to one of Al-Jazeera's Arabic pages as a reference? [4] When a reference doesn't include the title and date it makes it impossible to look for a mirror, if the main link goes dead. So, I tried the link to find the title and date. But, I don't speak Arabic.
Cheers! -- Geo Swan 06:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
It's so obvious that this was part of the propaganda campaign unleashed against the Western World.
Has anyone ever tried to FLUSH A BOOK DOWN THE TOILET? It would be physically impossible, as books are larger than the pipes in a toilet.
This allegation in the article should be listed as such: an unfounded allegation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.131.184.152 ( talk) 05:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC).
Whether it is an unfounded allegation or not is irrelevant. Wikipedia documents his allegation, not whether or not it is true.-- 109.59.150.9 ( talk) 23:40, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
If you take it LITERALLY, yes, it seems to be not possible. More probably the guards have torn out the pages, throwing them piece for piece in the toilet. You see, more funs for the Marines who run this "prison". -- 84.141.50.97 ( talk) 10:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Obviously, some people are eager to take the words "flushing a book down the toilet" literally, simply to discredit the facts and put some dense fog over them. There is so much video and photographic evidence on the net where a Koran is abused, that this incident seems true. What I am missing in this article: Bush and his camarilla are planning to give themselves and others immunity for each war crime (like this) committed in Iraq. But my English is not good enough to work that out. -- 84.141.33.125 ( talk) 14:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I clipped a comment. It was in a section that quoted from the 2005 Summary of Evidence (ARB) memos. It was made to look like the factors from that memo. Innocently, no doubt, but also innappropriately.
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 00:33, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikidates are great, in general. But I believe correcting quoted material to use them is a mistake. Quoted material should be left "as-is". Readers may want to search the web on it. If so using wikidates can cause those searches to fail.
That is bad.
So I removed the wikidating.
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 01:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The fact that transliteration of Arabic symbols to the Latin alphabet is imprecise and often produces many possible results suggests to me that Section 1 (Identity) would be at best reduced to 2 possible spellings of Hajj's name (as at Taj El-Din Hilaly). There is no source given for any confusion over Hajj's identity only sources for different latinizations of his name. And this doesn't deserve a section to itself. SmithBlue ( talk) 05:51, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
According to Large denominations of United States currency there are believed to be only about 300 $10,000 bills in circulation. As collectibles I would think their condition would be very important. Is there evidence that there were really 22 of them tucked under his wife's belly? Surely this is some mis-translation. $2200 in a money belt seems more believable. Wnt ( talk) 00:17, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Another contributor removed an image I added, with the edit summary: "Undid revision 339208005 by Geo Swan (talk) no good reason given for the inclusion of this image".
Sami al-Hajj is a hunger striker who: drew some striking illustrations, including one depicting himself as a skeleton being force-fed. "My picture reflects my nightmares of what I must look like with my head double-strapped down, a tube in my nose, a black mask over my mouth, with no eyes and only giant cheekbones", he said.
I think this image is entirely appropriate for this article.
If the other contributor did not understand that Al Hajj was a hunger striker who had been strapped into the restraint chair for his force-feedings I suggest it would have been wiser to have, politely, initiated a discussion over their concern -- rather than just excise the material they didn't understand.
In my experience this kind of radical excision too often serves as a trigger to an edit war. I won't immediately revert this excision. I'll wait to see whether the other contributor has other arguments for the excision. But I call on them to make a greater to refrain from treating the wikipedia like a battleground. Geo Swan ( talk) 03:32, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I recently started an article on the Guantanamo hunger strikes. We already have an article on hunger strikes, throughout the ages, including suffragists, and the IRA. It has a section on Guantanamo. Looking at it I can see that that section is very out of date, unreferenced, and, frankly poorly written. I checked. I wrote much of that section. I wrote it four years ago, when I was less experienced, and when the wikipedia's standards, and my personal standards were lower.
I think the Guantanamo section of the hunger striker article should be improved. And I think the Guantanamo hunger strikes and hunger strikers merit an article of their own. After some work, I think this article will become much larger than it is now.
As I was working on the Guantanamo hunger strikes article I started looking at other articles that referred to the hunger strikes or hunger strikers, because they might be citing references about the hunger strike that could be re-used in the Guantanamo hunger strikes article. And, while doing so, I changed links from " hunger strike" to " Guantanamo hunger strike".
Another contributor asked me to stop -- for discussion I thought. They told me they planned to suggest merging the new article into the " hunger strikes" article. I thought I would wait for them to initiate that discussion -- or another discussion, if they thought they had a better idea, before I made any more of those changes in article space.
Instead of that discussion they reverted my change in the wikilink here.
I think if someone has a concern they should:
But, for crying out loud, if you have a concern, don't just hint at it, and then start reverting the other party, skipping the attempt to explain yourself and work towards a compromise. Geo Swan ( talk) 04:31, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia citation guidlines, "When quoting a source in a different language, please provide both the original-language quotation and an English translation, in the text, in a footnote, or on the talk page as appropriate." There is no such English translation for the citation : ^ a b "لجنة حماية الصحفيين قلقة إزاء تدهور صحة الحاج". Al Jazeera. March 6, 2007. http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/49B71E20-FDC0-4B51-A1D9-1CFB0ACA2D10.htm. Retrieved 2007-03-07. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BJ Crowning ( talk • contribs) 19:29, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Official documents the United States Department of Defense has released gave the latinized version of Al Hajj's name as Sami Mohy El Din Muhammed Al Hajj [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] except for one document released in September 2007. [10]
References
DoDList2
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).CsrtSummaryOfEvidenceSamiMohyElDinMuhammedAlHajj
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).ArbSummaryOfEvidenceSamiAlHajj
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite web}}
: |pages=
has extra text (
help)
Reworked much of the former weirdness of this article, with some help from User:IQinn. There's room for expansion with regards to Al Hajj's treatment at Gitmo.-- 109.59.150.9 ( talk) 04:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
His file has been released in today's batch. It claims he's a member of al-Qaida and Taliban, among other things. Quite an interesting read. -- 91.32.72.83 ( talk) 11:31, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
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