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The map on the page is incorrect. California does not recognize same-sex unions. "Only an unmarried male and an unmarried female may marry in California." I don't know who's supposed to change that, but yeah.
Minidoxigirli 08:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Minidoxigirli 21:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
This comment is not vandalism, I swear. I wanted to suggest taht a heading with the aforementioned title be added. There is a growing numbers of gays who have voiced their opposition to the marraige issue. The section could say something ilke. (It would be cited of course. )
Arguments against same sex marriage from openly gay individuals differ sharply from the standard religious and social concerns. This group disagrees on the basis that a fight for gay marriage in some way mirrors the orthodox American values expounded by religious conservatives. They view marriage is an unnecessary convention and contend the gay rights movement was founded on the right to live an unconventional life. -- Young Lucky 01:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
why is this article longer then the regular wedding article? Doesnt that seem a little lop-sided? Also, how come there is no reference whatsoever to the economical point of view in this argument? If homosexual marriages are reconginised legally, wont there be higher medical costs for the government and employers? Many, american workers get spouse coverage wouldnt this have to be applied to homosexual unions as well if it passes? Not the mention the tax breaks that hetrosexual couples enjoy, would this appply to homosexual marriages as well? By law a spouse can not testify against there partner, would this apply to homosexual couples? Traditionaly during divorce hearings the mother gets primary custody, how will this be modified for homosexual divorces? In NY state a 16 year old can marry another 16 year old with parent permission. If it passes will this be allowed for homosexual couples? The Isiah 03:49, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
just RE compelled testimony: There are circumstances when a spouse *can* be barred from testifying.
Spouses can choose to testify against each other, as witnesses to actions, but communications between spouses are privileged. The witness spouse can choose to testify, or not, to "I saw them do such-and-such." The defendant spouse can prevent the witness from testifying "S/he *told* me such-and-such." Tahrlis 16:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Asian countries have banned homosexual practices before, I dont buy the religoes argument. This is an economical issue. The Isiah 03:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
This sentence, "Homosexuality itself has always been a minority practice, so social recognition of such unions has been irregular at best." is not correct to the best of my understanding, since homosexual relations were anything but a minority practice in at least a few major cultures (Japan, Greece, Turkey). Unless the statement can be sourced I suggest it be permenently deleted. Haiduc 15:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Ditto ancient Japan. Exploding Boy 19:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Sort of ditto Sambia, possibly Sparta and Crete, areas of Melanesia and Australia, the Ottoman empire, Albania, periods in Korea, Hawaii, etc. As a source, try Homosexualities by Stephen O. Murray, or just google. - Smahoney 19:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
From the article
Conservative Christians and some moderates view the passage as specificially referring to homosexuals. However, liberal and and some moderate Christians see these passages obscure in meaning and do not believe that these passages refer to homosexuality, since the word "homosexual" wasn't coined until 1892 [22].
This argument makes no sense - it doesn't matter when the word "homosexual" was invented - surely the authors of the passage were aware of the concept of homosexuality. The real question would then be whether, in the original texts, the authors used terminology that refers to homosexual behavior.
I would argue that since modern translations of the Bible are supposed to be translated directly from the source texts in their native language, then the fact that modern translations use "homosexuality" means that the original text also meant "homosexuality". However, I can see someone arguing that Bible translators might have a slight bias against homosexuality, so I am asking for other viewpoints here. Rexmorgan 03:10, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I added the weasel words reference after viewing the definition of that term according to Wikipedia Standards, I apologize that I didn't put this blurb on the talk page fast enough, but I also don't recall that being a requirement to post such a warning--considering I used the Edit Summary field. I notice that it seems one person (StuffofInterest) is the only person who seems to get to police this article. care to engage in some debate before you just continue to revert? Julien_Deveraux
StuffOfInterest states in the audit trail (Atlant appeared to accidently overwrite my comments)
It's possible, and if so, please accept my apologies! My browser acted weirdly several times in a row as I attempted to open just the section, and I ended up opening the entire talk page (although your comments definitely weren't there in my edit window). Then again, it might have been just an edit collision, announced or unannounced by the Wikimedia software; these things happen.
But I assure you it was not deliberate. Sorry!
Atlant 18:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I will not take the action but the historical portion of this page which referes to relationships between older men and younger boys as examples of "gay marriage" is counter productive. It looks like something I would expect to see in the NAMBLA handbook. I am not homophobe but that just gives me the creeps. What I will change is the reference to "two-spirits" as gay. I am a native american and I am such a "two-spirit" I have Klienfelters syndrome and am technically a transsexual. Historically the "two-spirits" were transsexual and accepted even among tribes that were VERY homophobic. So saying that "two-spirits" are an example of accepted gay people is a stretch beyond truthfulness. 66.92.130.180 21:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Weather Greek Pederasty was "educational" or not is not my point. Homosexuals want the right to get married, right? All I was saying is that praise for pederasty is counterproductive. The age of the people is not the point either. As child brides are also now considered taboo. The average voter who may be open to supporting gay marriage who reads that will be turned off.
As for the two-spirit issue. Here is my citation. [ http://www.circumstitions.com/Intersex.html It's a - um, baby: Intactivism and Intersexuality] lA Native American Perspective on the Theory of Gender Continuum by DRK.
Now listen to a intersexed native American person speaking for themselef. I am 1/2 Montana Blackfoot and 1/2 African American. I have Klienfelters XXXY syndrome. Because of the corrective surgery I need medicine also consideres me to have GID. For reasons of privacy I do not want to reveal anything more about myself. Trust me, Histoically men who were gay were not considered two-spirit. To pass for a female (or male if f2M) at all one would need to have either had a serious endocrine problem or been intersexed (premarin did not exist then). I mean, think about this, by definition a gay man is a man. Pure and simply he is a man who wants other men for sex. That does not make one intersexed or transsexual. Further more in most Native American socieites if a proclivity for the work of the opposite sex is noted a young man or woman could comit to what was closest to a sex change at the time (basically castration). Those are the facts of my personal experience and tradition passed down to me by my family. :-)
Based on those citations and what I know of the historical role of the third gender or "two-spirited" I conclude that being "two-spirit" was in no way a synonym for being gay. (one of those articles mentions a tribe that had five genders perhaps one of those would correspond to being gay. Just not this one. ). 66.92.130.180 06:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok I give up. If you would rather have a article full of POV that claims every one who is not hetero is gay then by all means do so. Let me rephrase that. If you want to classify as LGB people who are T and I the fine. Whatever! It matters not to me because from Iowa to Iran people like me can already get married.
66.92.130.180
18:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
The term civil marriage simply means a marriage according to the state. There may be states/countries/etc that allow civil marriages to include unions between members of the same sex. However, all couples who have a marriage license from the state have a "civil marriage".
It would be proper to frame a comment "advocates for same sex marriages wish to include those marriages under civil marriage law" but in no way would it be proper to say "same sex marriage" = "civil marriage".
What about civil unions? That is a term given by some people to create a separate legal status than civil marriages to same sex couples. DanielZimmerman 23:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems that "debates over terminology" could be combined with "controversy into a much better worded description. Indeed, the debates over what these unions are called are a big part of the controversy.
Many portions of the "debates" section are unverified. In fact, this article could probably be made much shorter and MUCH much better.
If there are no objections in the next couple of days, I will work on combining the two above sections. DanielZimmerman 20:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
why is there a custom/non-default ToC implemented? the default/normal would look much better. - Grick( talk to me!) 04:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The article is too long, and many of the large sections should be broken off into their own articles. Ardenn 03:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
This section is wrong, at least to the extent that the World Bank is an international organization. I also believe that there are other multilateral banks that recognize domestic partners (Asian and European development banks come to mind). I am going to modify part of the section, noting the World Bank's policies. Gibbsale
Does the Bible ever mention the marriage is strickly between a men and a woman? I'm not pro-gay or against gay marriage. I just wonder is any knowns about it.
I think People in America forget that America is a free country & that you don't need incorporate the bible into your daily life. I think same-sex marriages is great. Homosexuals get what they want: people of their sex as their partner, straight guys like me can get more chances with women, now there are more women who don't have a partner I can now be their boyfriend & eventually find a girlfriend that I feel comfortable with & that is a match with me. Also means more chicks for me. Am I right or not.?
The intro section says that same-sex civil unions are legal in New York State, and yet the map halfway down the page (Image:Laws_on_homosexuality.PNG) shows that same-sex civil unions are NOT legal in New York State. Which is correct? -- zandperl 17:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Aside: if it turns out that the map is simply not up to date, may I suggest people give feedback on the "Wikipedia map markup language" idea. We want to help make maps easier to update but we need someone capable of designing the software tools. -- Andrew Delong 17:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Sweden should be added to the list of countries that is debating complete same-sex marriage to replace partnerships in the next year, and probably the other Nordic countries as well. I don't know of any other countries where it is being debated but I'm sure there are probably some, someone could do some research (i'm too lazy right now, haha)
I was thinking of creating a page with a timeline devoted to SS marriage/civil union proposals which had been adopted by legislative bodies, but later vetoed by the executive/judicial. (California marriage [1], Australian Capital Territory - civil unions [ [2]], Czech Republic - civil unions [3], etc.). Thoughts? Style guidelines? Is it already on Wikipedia and I've missed it? samwaltz 15:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Is someone going to change the map of world same-sex marriage laws to illustrate the recent change in Czech law regarding the practice?
In the first sentence, I believe that sex is a more appropriate term than gender. Sex refers to biological classification whereas, according to the article on sex, "The somewhat similar term gender has more to do with identity than biology." The laws which permit or deny same-sex marriage are decided based upon the physical and biological classification of the participants, not on their identity. – Shoaler ( talk) 11:36, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I recentally scanned a Bible with an eye towards seeing what the Bible's stand on same-sex marriage was. I was suprised to see that the Bible (KJV) does not prohibit marriage or sex between two women. Also, marriage between two men is not prohibihed, just sex. Can someone find a way to insert this into the article? I cannot seem to find where this should go. Auric 22:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The two major biblical sections people quote are Leviticus 18:22 and the Soddom and Gamorrah thing (Genesis 13:13; 18:20; 19:24, 29; Hosea 11:8). The first Obviously and explicitly prohibits same-sex marriage, but the second is a little less clear cut. Sodom_and_Gomorrah - basically the people of Sodom and Gomorrah get angry and demand to rape (the exact wording ranges from "have" to "be intimate with) the angels who Lot has taken in and then God destroys their town. I would've thought the rape was worse than the homosexuality myself. -- Jabberwalkee 11:26, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Should Slovenia be listed as the latest country allowing marriage nationwide? See [4] (also: [5], [6], [7]). This is confounding, but I'm going to guess their point was the arguable one that if guests are restricted, it's not full marriage. If that's the distinction they're trying to draw, it's an arguable one. Fireplace 13:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Since no one has come forward with sources debunking this, I'm tentatively putting it back into the article. Feel free to remove again if you've got conflicting data. Fireplace 05:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd much rather trust LBGT sources to get the terminology right than other news sources; the UK's civil union law was also often called marriage in oversimplifying news reports. 365gayc.com, for instance, calls it "civil union", as do other notable LBGT rights groups. http://www.365gay.com/Newscon06/07/072406slovenia.htm — Nightst a llion (?) 12:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
This page has become too liberal in its classification to list the partnership benefits, etc., available to citizens in Australian states other than Tasmania as being equal on some ground to marriage. They are not. Tasmania offers the only thing in Australia close to a civil union. The other states do not. Offering next of kin benefits or IVF treatment doesn't mean that those states are progressive enough for same-sex couples and GLBT people. At best, if one wishes to include the other states, and other countries/dependencies where similar benefits are offered in these limited amounts, then a new subheading should be created I feel. Enzedbrit 20:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
While this issue arises in most countries, I think it is most relevant in the US. For example, in many other countries such as New Zealand and the UK, most gay rights activists as far as I can tell do believe they should ultimately be allowed to marry but generally feel new laws allowing same-sex civil unions or civil partnerships with equal rights as opposite-sex marriages are sufficient for now and are more concerned with other issues. The US appears to be one of the only countries where there is an extremely strong voice for gay marriage. I suspect this has more to do with the federal nature of the US as well as the tendincy for significant changes to be made in court. If they are granted marriage by right, then all federal and state entities would presemuably be required to offer all benefits and recognitions given to opposite-sex marriages. On the other hand, ensuring that all such benefits and recognition is applied to civil unions is seen as more difficult. While I don't have a reference for my suggestion, I'm sure someone else has considered this before Nil Einne 01:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Should we have a paragraph for "neutered marriage" and "gender-complete marriage"? google for "neutered marriage" (24 unique) and google for "gender-complete marriage" (6 unique) My thought is no but I'm open to discussion. In the mean time, I'm going to rm the unsourced paragraph. ~a ( user • talk • contribs) 19:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Also looking at the article it would appear to me that the origional editor would have been better served putting a "citation needed" tag as employed in the paragraph above the edit, instead of doing a Google search and deleting. -- 66.185.170.210 22:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't know who wrote this article, but it stands out as a great propganda piece. I guess the NPOV rules don't apply if your gay. Huge elements such as the gay rights movement's early antipathy to the idea of gay marriage has been left out, such as the following from the 1978 GLF Manifesto.
Monogamy is usually based on ownership-the woman sells her services to the man in return for security for herself and her children-and is entirely bound up in the man's idea of property furthermore in our society the monogamous couple, with or without children, is an isolated, shut-in, up-tight unit, suspicious of and hostile to outsiders. And though we don't lay down rules or tell gay people how they should behave in bed or in their relationships, we do want them to question society's blueprint for the couple. The blueprint says 'we two against the world', and that can be protective and comforting. But it can also be suffocating, leading to neurotic dependence and underlying hostility, the emotional dishonesty of staying in the comfy safety of the home and garden, the security and narrowness of the life built for two, with the secret guilt of fancying someone else while remaining in thrall to the idea that true love lasts a lifetime-as though there were a ration of relationships, and to want more than one were greedy. Not that sexual fidelity is necessarily wrong; what is wrong is the inturned emotional exclusiveness of the couple which students the partners so they can no longer operate at all as independent beings in society. People need a variety of relationships in order to develop and grow, and to learn about other human beings." [8]
"Gay people must stop gauging their self-respect by how well they mimic straight marriages. Gay marriages will have the same problems as straight ones except in burlesque. For the usual legitimacy and pressures which keep straight marriages together are absent, e.g., kids, what parents think, what neighbors say.
To accept that happiness comes through finding a groovy spouse and settling down, showing the world that “we’re just the same as you” is avoiding the real issues, and is an expression of self-hatred." [9]
Is this being omitted for political reasons?
"Scholars" such as John Boswell are treated as objective, despite the fact the late Dr. Boswell has drawn fire from fellow scholars for frequently overreaching with his conclusions. First of all, Dr. Boswell, a classics scholar had no business analyzing the Koine Greek used in 1st century Jewish culture when his specialty was 4th century B.C. Attic Greek. They were two completely different dialects affected by two different cultures. For example, Dr. Boswell (I have read his work first hand) asserts porneia means prostitution in the Bible. Small problem, by the time it came into use in New Testament Koine Greek porneia had come to mean any kind of sexual activity that violated the Jewish law. Sort of like the difference in meaning for the word bum in American and British English.
Anything Dr. Boswell writes shouldn't be written up as a citation, rather as an assertion, largely influenced by his engaging in textual eisegesis, not exegesis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.45.161.241 ( talk • contribs) .
The only thing I might want to know is why the change. Was it strategic to eliminate heterosexual opposition to homosexuality, or was it some other reason? Would you object to my changing Dr. Boswell cites this or that to John Boswell believes x is evidence of y; however, the quality of his scholarship is subject to intense debate.
I'm less concerned with individuals, but I'm more concerned with the political movement itself. User:Pravknight-- 146.145.70.147 21:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The argument that barring same-sex marriage violates the Separation of Church and State needs balancing; especially, because opponents view the Mormon polygamy cases as being applicable as a legal precedent for allowing religiously motivated arguments against same-sex marriage. In those cases, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected the Mormon's efforts to redefine the common-law definition of marriage because Christianity didn't allow for it.
"In its 1890 case of The Mormon Church v. The United States, the Court wrote in its majority opinion, 'The organization of our community for the spread and practice of polygamy is, in a measure, a return to barbarism. It is contrary to the spirit of Christianity and of the civilization, which Christianity has produced in the Western world. The question, therefore, is whether the promotion of such a nefarious system and practice, so repugnant to our laws and to our [Christian] civilization is to be allowed to continue by the sanction of our government.'
Similar points were made in the 1890 Davis v. Beeson case where the court said outlawing bigamy and polygamy was constitutional because they were 'crimes by the laws of all civilized and Christian nations.' Consequently, polygamy was not outlawed because of secular concerns over how polygamy would adversely affect children but only because they were offensive to Christianity.
In practice, the founders’ intent to keep government away from mandating popular adherence on matters of theology did not extend to the expression of Christian sentiments by public officials, nor through statutes aimed at preserving public morality. The 1890s polygamy cases should be considered precedent for our current debates over “gay rights,” abortion, euthanasia, etc., because the court acknowledged that Christian morality was part of our common law. (And, of course, those cases have never been overturned.)" [10] -- 146.145.70.147 22:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The removal of counterarguments in the section regarding pro-homosexual religious arguments reveals a discomfort with the fact clear refutations for those arguments exist. Perhaps a simple solution would be to strike that section and establish a separate article where a balanced viewpoint discussing the pros and cons could be weighed out.
The article as it currently stands is hopelessly slanted in a Critical Theory POV. -- 146.145.70.200 19:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
The arguments for same-sex marriage aren't overly convincing, and if you ask me most of them are based upon trumped up lies and deceits. Your definition of POV is meaningless because that's what this entire article is. The arguments used against the traditional Christian interpretations of the Bible aren't arguments at all because an honest examination of the facts will reveal they're false. You see, the problem is, I'm not going to get lost. Wikipedia is a great tool, but it shouldn't be used to promote a narrow, extremist Left-wing agenda. -- Pravknight 22:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
" Conservative and some moderate Christians further state that same-sex marriage goes against biblical teaching, for example, Genesis 19:5 [11](behavior which allegedly contributed to the destruction of ancient cities Sodom and Gomorrah). This story was the source of the word sodomy. Other passages are Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 (which, by literal interpretation, prescribes the death penalty for male-male homosexual contact), and in the New Testament of the Bible, First Corinthians 6:8-10 and Romans 1:24-27.
However, other moderate and liberal Christians have the view that these passages are taken out of full textual, historical and cultural contexts and aren't applicable to homosexual relationships as we know them today. They view the passages about Sodom and Gomorrah as referring to systematic rape and inhospitability. They see the passages in Leviticus as part of the Holiness code and strictly reserved to the Jewish people of that time. Most of this Holiness code has been ignored and abandoned by contemporary Christians (e.g., prohibitions on wearing mixed fabrics, a proscription of the consumption of pork).
For liberal Christians, the passage in Romans is seen as relating more to specific instances of Greco-Roman temple sex acts and idolatrous worship and not intended to address modern homosexuality. [12]
The meaning of the Greek words arsenokoités and malakos (translated simply as "homosexuals" in most post-19th century versions; as "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind" in the King James Version of the Bible) used in Corinthians 6:8-10 has been a hotly contested matter. Conservative Christians and some moderates view the passage as specificially referring to homosexuals.
[14] & [15]
However, liberal and some moderate Christians see these passages obscure in meaning and do not believe that these passages refer to homosexuality, since the word "homosexual" wasn't coined until 1892 [16]. They find that the view that these words refer to homosexuality is a contemporary interpretive bias that wasn't intended by the original author(s) of the text. [17]
A fundamental concern of opponents is that the legalization of same-sex marriage will lead to a direct attack against religious institutions, limit their constitutional right to free speech, force them to perform marriage ceremonies of which they do not approve, and that established churches would be eventually bankrupted by lawsuits brought against them.
Some churches and denominations, as listed previously in this article, perform same-sex weddings. Members of these groups may believe that since the major scientific organizations state that there is no evidence one can voluntarily decide sexual orientation, all people regardless of sexuality should be able to marry the person they love and that to deny them is immoral. They also may view laws banning same-sex marriage as a violation of their religious freedom and an unfair favorship by a government of other religious groups.
Proponents claim that since marriages are conducted by the power invested in the celebrant by the state, under the principles of religious pluralism and the separation of church and state, religious arguments should not be used to constitute the law.
-- Pravknight 04:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I provided plenty in the now-deleted article "Christian arguments over same-sex marriage." I provided both sides of the issue, but what angered me was some folks here seemed to want to censor the whole thing. I spent hours writing that article in a vain attempt to be NPOV compliant.-- Pravknight 18:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
:That's fine, but I don't really see why it is relevant. Remember, there is no cabal - what other editors do has no necessary relation to what I or anyone else does. -
Smahoney
20:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
It's just not balanced. I suggest dropping it completely, and linking to another article.-- Pravknight 04:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
The terms "gay marriage", "straight marriage", and all others implying sexual orientation, although popular with the media, are viewed by some as inaccurate. Same-sex marriage partners may be bisexual and not gay, or opposite-gender marriage partners may be bisexual and not heterosexual. Moreover, they claim that sexual orientation has rarely been a legal or religious qualification for marriage (a gay man could still marry a woman). Rather, the relevant qualification is the characteristic sexes of the parties to the marriage.[citation needed]
Hello, I am submitting a letter and a link provided by George Sved of the Swedish Office of the Ombudsman Against Discrimination on Grounds of Sexual Orientation. His letter to me, including the Swedish Government link is as follows: "After an initial report and request by the Ombudsman, several motions in Parliament followed by a Parliament decision requiring the Government to look into the possibility of opening up marriage also for same-sex couples, the Government has appointed a special rapporteur for the task. The report shall be delivered to the Government by March 2007 at the latest. A preliminary overview of the opinion of the different political parties represented in the Swedish Parliament shows a good chance of such a legislative change being approved." Read our Press Release at http://www.homo.se/o.o.i.s/1780 Best Wishes, George Sved www.homo.se
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The map on the page is incorrect. California does not recognize same-sex unions. "Only an unmarried male and an unmarried female may marry in California." I don't know who's supposed to change that, but yeah.
Minidoxigirli 08:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Minidoxigirli 21:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
This comment is not vandalism, I swear. I wanted to suggest taht a heading with the aforementioned title be added. There is a growing numbers of gays who have voiced their opposition to the marraige issue. The section could say something ilke. (It would be cited of course. )
Arguments against same sex marriage from openly gay individuals differ sharply from the standard religious and social concerns. This group disagrees on the basis that a fight for gay marriage in some way mirrors the orthodox American values expounded by religious conservatives. They view marriage is an unnecessary convention and contend the gay rights movement was founded on the right to live an unconventional life. -- Young Lucky 01:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
why is this article longer then the regular wedding article? Doesnt that seem a little lop-sided? Also, how come there is no reference whatsoever to the economical point of view in this argument? If homosexual marriages are reconginised legally, wont there be higher medical costs for the government and employers? Many, american workers get spouse coverage wouldnt this have to be applied to homosexual unions as well if it passes? Not the mention the tax breaks that hetrosexual couples enjoy, would this appply to homosexual marriages as well? By law a spouse can not testify against there partner, would this apply to homosexual couples? Traditionaly during divorce hearings the mother gets primary custody, how will this be modified for homosexual divorces? In NY state a 16 year old can marry another 16 year old with parent permission. If it passes will this be allowed for homosexual couples? The Isiah 03:49, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
just RE compelled testimony: There are circumstances when a spouse *can* be barred from testifying.
Spouses can choose to testify against each other, as witnesses to actions, but communications between spouses are privileged. The witness spouse can choose to testify, or not, to "I saw them do such-and-such." The defendant spouse can prevent the witness from testifying "S/he *told* me such-and-such." Tahrlis 16:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Asian countries have banned homosexual practices before, I dont buy the religoes argument. This is an economical issue. The Isiah 03:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
This sentence, "Homosexuality itself has always been a minority practice, so social recognition of such unions has been irregular at best." is not correct to the best of my understanding, since homosexual relations were anything but a minority practice in at least a few major cultures (Japan, Greece, Turkey). Unless the statement can be sourced I suggest it be permenently deleted. Haiduc 15:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Ditto ancient Japan. Exploding Boy 19:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Sort of ditto Sambia, possibly Sparta and Crete, areas of Melanesia and Australia, the Ottoman empire, Albania, periods in Korea, Hawaii, etc. As a source, try Homosexualities by Stephen O. Murray, or just google. - Smahoney 19:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
From the article
Conservative Christians and some moderates view the passage as specificially referring to homosexuals. However, liberal and and some moderate Christians see these passages obscure in meaning and do not believe that these passages refer to homosexuality, since the word "homosexual" wasn't coined until 1892 [22].
This argument makes no sense - it doesn't matter when the word "homosexual" was invented - surely the authors of the passage were aware of the concept of homosexuality. The real question would then be whether, in the original texts, the authors used terminology that refers to homosexual behavior.
I would argue that since modern translations of the Bible are supposed to be translated directly from the source texts in their native language, then the fact that modern translations use "homosexuality" means that the original text also meant "homosexuality". However, I can see someone arguing that Bible translators might have a slight bias against homosexuality, so I am asking for other viewpoints here. Rexmorgan 03:10, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I added the weasel words reference after viewing the definition of that term according to Wikipedia Standards, I apologize that I didn't put this blurb on the talk page fast enough, but I also don't recall that being a requirement to post such a warning--considering I used the Edit Summary field. I notice that it seems one person (StuffofInterest) is the only person who seems to get to police this article. care to engage in some debate before you just continue to revert? Julien_Deveraux
StuffOfInterest states in the audit trail (Atlant appeared to accidently overwrite my comments)
It's possible, and if so, please accept my apologies! My browser acted weirdly several times in a row as I attempted to open just the section, and I ended up opening the entire talk page (although your comments definitely weren't there in my edit window). Then again, it might have been just an edit collision, announced or unannounced by the Wikimedia software; these things happen.
But I assure you it was not deliberate. Sorry!
Atlant 18:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I will not take the action but the historical portion of this page which referes to relationships between older men and younger boys as examples of "gay marriage" is counter productive. It looks like something I would expect to see in the NAMBLA handbook. I am not homophobe but that just gives me the creeps. What I will change is the reference to "two-spirits" as gay. I am a native american and I am such a "two-spirit" I have Klienfelters syndrome and am technically a transsexual. Historically the "two-spirits" were transsexual and accepted even among tribes that were VERY homophobic. So saying that "two-spirits" are an example of accepted gay people is a stretch beyond truthfulness. 66.92.130.180 21:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Weather Greek Pederasty was "educational" or not is not my point. Homosexuals want the right to get married, right? All I was saying is that praise for pederasty is counterproductive. The age of the people is not the point either. As child brides are also now considered taboo. The average voter who may be open to supporting gay marriage who reads that will be turned off.
As for the two-spirit issue. Here is my citation. [ http://www.circumstitions.com/Intersex.html It's a - um, baby: Intactivism and Intersexuality] lA Native American Perspective on the Theory of Gender Continuum by DRK.
Now listen to a intersexed native American person speaking for themselef. I am 1/2 Montana Blackfoot and 1/2 African American. I have Klienfelters XXXY syndrome. Because of the corrective surgery I need medicine also consideres me to have GID. For reasons of privacy I do not want to reveal anything more about myself. Trust me, Histoically men who were gay were not considered two-spirit. To pass for a female (or male if f2M) at all one would need to have either had a serious endocrine problem or been intersexed (premarin did not exist then). I mean, think about this, by definition a gay man is a man. Pure and simply he is a man who wants other men for sex. That does not make one intersexed or transsexual. Further more in most Native American socieites if a proclivity for the work of the opposite sex is noted a young man or woman could comit to what was closest to a sex change at the time (basically castration). Those are the facts of my personal experience and tradition passed down to me by my family. :-)
Based on those citations and what I know of the historical role of the third gender or "two-spirited" I conclude that being "two-spirit" was in no way a synonym for being gay. (one of those articles mentions a tribe that had five genders perhaps one of those would correspond to being gay. Just not this one. ). 66.92.130.180 06:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok I give up. If you would rather have a article full of POV that claims every one who is not hetero is gay then by all means do so. Let me rephrase that. If you want to classify as LGB people who are T and I the fine. Whatever! It matters not to me because from Iowa to Iran people like me can already get married.
66.92.130.180
18:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
The term civil marriage simply means a marriage according to the state. There may be states/countries/etc that allow civil marriages to include unions between members of the same sex. However, all couples who have a marriage license from the state have a "civil marriage".
It would be proper to frame a comment "advocates for same sex marriages wish to include those marriages under civil marriage law" but in no way would it be proper to say "same sex marriage" = "civil marriage".
What about civil unions? That is a term given by some people to create a separate legal status than civil marriages to same sex couples. DanielZimmerman 23:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems that "debates over terminology" could be combined with "controversy into a much better worded description. Indeed, the debates over what these unions are called are a big part of the controversy.
Many portions of the "debates" section are unverified. In fact, this article could probably be made much shorter and MUCH much better.
If there are no objections in the next couple of days, I will work on combining the two above sections. DanielZimmerman 20:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
why is there a custom/non-default ToC implemented? the default/normal would look much better. - Grick( talk to me!) 04:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The article is too long, and many of the large sections should be broken off into their own articles. Ardenn 03:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
This section is wrong, at least to the extent that the World Bank is an international organization. I also believe that there are other multilateral banks that recognize domestic partners (Asian and European development banks come to mind). I am going to modify part of the section, noting the World Bank's policies. Gibbsale
Does the Bible ever mention the marriage is strickly between a men and a woman? I'm not pro-gay or against gay marriage. I just wonder is any knowns about it.
I think People in America forget that America is a free country & that you don't need incorporate the bible into your daily life. I think same-sex marriages is great. Homosexuals get what they want: people of their sex as their partner, straight guys like me can get more chances with women, now there are more women who don't have a partner I can now be their boyfriend & eventually find a girlfriend that I feel comfortable with & that is a match with me. Also means more chicks for me. Am I right or not.?
The intro section says that same-sex civil unions are legal in New York State, and yet the map halfway down the page (Image:Laws_on_homosexuality.PNG) shows that same-sex civil unions are NOT legal in New York State. Which is correct? -- zandperl 17:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Aside: if it turns out that the map is simply not up to date, may I suggest people give feedback on the "Wikipedia map markup language" idea. We want to help make maps easier to update but we need someone capable of designing the software tools. -- Andrew Delong 17:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Sweden should be added to the list of countries that is debating complete same-sex marriage to replace partnerships in the next year, and probably the other Nordic countries as well. I don't know of any other countries where it is being debated but I'm sure there are probably some, someone could do some research (i'm too lazy right now, haha)
I was thinking of creating a page with a timeline devoted to SS marriage/civil union proposals which had been adopted by legislative bodies, but later vetoed by the executive/judicial. (California marriage [1], Australian Capital Territory - civil unions [ [2]], Czech Republic - civil unions [3], etc.). Thoughts? Style guidelines? Is it already on Wikipedia and I've missed it? samwaltz 15:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Is someone going to change the map of world same-sex marriage laws to illustrate the recent change in Czech law regarding the practice?
In the first sentence, I believe that sex is a more appropriate term than gender. Sex refers to biological classification whereas, according to the article on sex, "The somewhat similar term gender has more to do with identity than biology." The laws which permit or deny same-sex marriage are decided based upon the physical and biological classification of the participants, not on their identity. – Shoaler ( talk) 11:36, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I recentally scanned a Bible with an eye towards seeing what the Bible's stand on same-sex marriage was. I was suprised to see that the Bible (KJV) does not prohibit marriage or sex between two women. Also, marriage between two men is not prohibihed, just sex. Can someone find a way to insert this into the article? I cannot seem to find where this should go. Auric 22:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The two major biblical sections people quote are Leviticus 18:22 and the Soddom and Gamorrah thing (Genesis 13:13; 18:20; 19:24, 29; Hosea 11:8). The first Obviously and explicitly prohibits same-sex marriage, but the second is a little less clear cut. Sodom_and_Gomorrah - basically the people of Sodom and Gomorrah get angry and demand to rape (the exact wording ranges from "have" to "be intimate with) the angels who Lot has taken in and then God destroys their town. I would've thought the rape was worse than the homosexuality myself. -- Jabberwalkee 11:26, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Should Slovenia be listed as the latest country allowing marriage nationwide? See [4] (also: [5], [6], [7]). This is confounding, but I'm going to guess their point was the arguable one that if guests are restricted, it's not full marriage. If that's the distinction they're trying to draw, it's an arguable one. Fireplace 13:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Since no one has come forward with sources debunking this, I'm tentatively putting it back into the article. Feel free to remove again if you've got conflicting data. Fireplace 05:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd much rather trust LBGT sources to get the terminology right than other news sources; the UK's civil union law was also often called marriage in oversimplifying news reports. 365gayc.com, for instance, calls it "civil union", as do other notable LBGT rights groups. http://www.365gay.com/Newscon06/07/072406slovenia.htm — Nightst a llion (?) 12:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
This page has become too liberal in its classification to list the partnership benefits, etc., available to citizens in Australian states other than Tasmania as being equal on some ground to marriage. They are not. Tasmania offers the only thing in Australia close to a civil union. The other states do not. Offering next of kin benefits or IVF treatment doesn't mean that those states are progressive enough for same-sex couples and GLBT people. At best, if one wishes to include the other states, and other countries/dependencies where similar benefits are offered in these limited amounts, then a new subheading should be created I feel. Enzedbrit 20:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
While this issue arises in most countries, I think it is most relevant in the US. For example, in many other countries such as New Zealand and the UK, most gay rights activists as far as I can tell do believe they should ultimately be allowed to marry but generally feel new laws allowing same-sex civil unions or civil partnerships with equal rights as opposite-sex marriages are sufficient for now and are more concerned with other issues. The US appears to be one of the only countries where there is an extremely strong voice for gay marriage. I suspect this has more to do with the federal nature of the US as well as the tendincy for significant changes to be made in court. If they are granted marriage by right, then all federal and state entities would presemuably be required to offer all benefits and recognitions given to opposite-sex marriages. On the other hand, ensuring that all such benefits and recognition is applied to civil unions is seen as more difficult. While I don't have a reference for my suggestion, I'm sure someone else has considered this before Nil Einne 01:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Should we have a paragraph for "neutered marriage" and "gender-complete marriage"? google for "neutered marriage" (24 unique) and google for "gender-complete marriage" (6 unique) My thought is no but I'm open to discussion. In the mean time, I'm going to rm the unsourced paragraph. ~a ( user • talk • contribs) 19:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Also looking at the article it would appear to me that the origional editor would have been better served putting a "citation needed" tag as employed in the paragraph above the edit, instead of doing a Google search and deleting. -- 66.185.170.210 22:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't know who wrote this article, but it stands out as a great propganda piece. I guess the NPOV rules don't apply if your gay. Huge elements such as the gay rights movement's early antipathy to the idea of gay marriage has been left out, such as the following from the 1978 GLF Manifesto.
Monogamy is usually based on ownership-the woman sells her services to the man in return for security for herself and her children-and is entirely bound up in the man's idea of property furthermore in our society the monogamous couple, with or without children, is an isolated, shut-in, up-tight unit, suspicious of and hostile to outsiders. And though we don't lay down rules or tell gay people how they should behave in bed or in their relationships, we do want them to question society's blueprint for the couple. The blueprint says 'we two against the world', and that can be protective and comforting. But it can also be suffocating, leading to neurotic dependence and underlying hostility, the emotional dishonesty of staying in the comfy safety of the home and garden, the security and narrowness of the life built for two, with the secret guilt of fancying someone else while remaining in thrall to the idea that true love lasts a lifetime-as though there were a ration of relationships, and to want more than one were greedy. Not that sexual fidelity is necessarily wrong; what is wrong is the inturned emotional exclusiveness of the couple which students the partners so they can no longer operate at all as independent beings in society. People need a variety of relationships in order to develop and grow, and to learn about other human beings." [8]
"Gay people must stop gauging their self-respect by how well they mimic straight marriages. Gay marriages will have the same problems as straight ones except in burlesque. For the usual legitimacy and pressures which keep straight marriages together are absent, e.g., kids, what parents think, what neighbors say.
To accept that happiness comes through finding a groovy spouse and settling down, showing the world that “we’re just the same as you” is avoiding the real issues, and is an expression of self-hatred." [9]
Is this being omitted for political reasons?
"Scholars" such as John Boswell are treated as objective, despite the fact the late Dr. Boswell has drawn fire from fellow scholars for frequently overreaching with his conclusions. First of all, Dr. Boswell, a classics scholar had no business analyzing the Koine Greek used in 1st century Jewish culture when his specialty was 4th century B.C. Attic Greek. They were two completely different dialects affected by two different cultures. For example, Dr. Boswell (I have read his work first hand) asserts porneia means prostitution in the Bible. Small problem, by the time it came into use in New Testament Koine Greek porneia had come to mean any kind of sexual activity that violated the Jewish law. Sort of like the difference in meaning for the word bum in American and British English.
Anything Dr. Boswell writes shouldn't be written up as a citation, rather as an assertion, largely influenced by his engaging in textual eisegesis, not exegesis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.45.161.241 ( talk • contribs) .
The only thing I might want to know is why the change. Was it strategic to eliminate heterosexual opposition to homosexuality, or was it some other reason? Would you object to my changing Dr. Boswell cites this or that to John Boswell believes x is evidence of y; however, the quality of his scholarship is subject to intense debate.
I'm less concerned with individuals, but I'm more concerned with the political movement itself. User:Pravknight-- 146.145.70.147 21:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The argument that barring same-sex marriage violates the Separation of Church and State needs balancing; especially, because opponents view the Mormon polygamy cases as being applicable as a legal precedent for allowing religiously motivated arguments against same-sex marriage. In those cases, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected the Mormon's efforts to redefine the common-law definition of marriage because Christianity didn't allow for it.
"In its 1890 case of The Mormon Church v. The United States, the Court wrote in its majority opinion, 'The organization of our community for the spread and practice of polygamy is, in a measure, a return to barbarism. It is contrary to the spirit of Christianity and of the civilization, which Christianity has produced in the Western world. The question, therefore, is whether the promotion of such a nefarious system and practice, so repugnant to our laws and to our [Christian] civilization is to be allowed to continue by the sanction of our government.'
Similar points were made in the 1890 Davis v. Beeson case where the court said outlawing bigamy and polygamy was constitutional because they were 'crimes by the laws of all civilized and Christian nations.' Consequently, polygamy was not outlawed because of secular concerns over how polygamy would adversely affect children but only because they were offensive to Christianity.
In practice, the founders’ intent to keep government away from mandating popular adherence on matters of theology did not extend to the expression of Christian sentiments by public officials, nor through statutes aimed at preserving public morality. The 1890s polygamy cases should be considered precedent for our current debates over “gay rights,” abortion, euthanasia, etc., because the court acknowledged that Christian morality was part of our common law. (And, of course, those cases have never been overturned.)" [10] -- 146.145.70.147 22:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The removal of counterarguments in the section regarding pro-homosexual religious arguments reveals a discomfort with the fact clear refutations for those arguments exist. Perhaps a simple solution would be to strike that section and establish a separate article where a balanced viewpoint discussing the pros and cons could be weighed out.
The article as it currently stands is hopelessly slanted in a Critical Theory POV. -- 146.145.70.200 19:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
The arguments for same-sex marriage aren't overly convincing, and if you ask me most of them are based upon trumped up lies and deceits. Your definition of POV is meaningless because that's what this entire article is. The arguments used against the traditional Christian interpretations of the Bible aren't arguments at all because an honest examination of the facts will reveal they're false. You see, the problem is, I'm not going to get lost. Wikipedia is a great tool, but it shouldn't be used to promote a narrow, extremist Left-wing agenda. -- Pravknight 22:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
" Conservative and some moderate Christians further state that same-sex marriage goes against biblical teaching, for example, Genesis 19:5 [11](behavior which allegedly contributed to the destruction of ancient cities Sodom and Gomorrah). This story was the source of the word sodomy. Other passages are Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 (which, by literal interpretation, prescribes the death penalty for male-male homosexual contact), and in the New Testament of the Bible, First Corinthians 6:8-10 and Romans 1:24-27.
However, other moderate and liberal Christians have the view that these passages are taken out of full textual, historical and cultural contexts and aren't applicable to homosexual relationships as we know them today. They view the passages about Sodom and Gomorrah as referring to systematic rape and inhospitability. They see the passages in Leviticus as part of the Holiness code and strictly reserved to the Jewish people of that time. Most of this Holiness code has been ignored and abandoned by contemporary Christians (e.g., prohibitions on wearing mixed fabrics, a proscription of the consumption of pork).
For liberal Christians, the passage in Romans is seen as relating more to specific instances of Greco-Roman temple sex acts and idolatrous worship and not intended to address modern homosexuality. [12]
The meaning of the Greek words arsenokoités and malakos (translated simply as "homosexuals" in most post-19th century versions; as "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind" in the King James Version of the Bible) used in Corinthians 6:8-10 has been a hotly contested matter. Conservative Christians and some moderates view the passage as specificially referring to homosexuals.
[14] & [15]
However, liberal and some moderate Christians see these passages obscure in meaning and do not believe that these passages refer to homosexuality, since the word "homosexual" wasn't coined until 1892 [16]. They find that the view that these words refer to homosexuality is a contemporary interpretive bias that wasn't intended by the original author(s) of the text. [17]
A fundamental concern of opponents is that the legalization of same-sex marriage will lead to a direct attack against religious institutions, limit their constitutional right to free speech, force them to perform marriage ceremonies of which they do not approve, and that established churches would be eventually bankrupted by lawsuits brought against them.
Some churches and denominations, as listed previously in this article, perform same-sex weddings. Members of these groups may believe that since the major scientific organizations state that there is no evidence one can voluntarily decide sexual orientation, all people regardless of sexuality should be able to marry the person they love and that to deny them is immoral. They also may view laws banning same-sex marriage as a violation of their religious freedom and an unfair favorship by a government of other religious groups.
Proponents claim that since marriages are conducted by the power invested in the celebrant by the state, under the principles of religious pluralism and the separation of church and state, religious arguments should not be used to constitute the law.
-- Pravknight 04:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I provided plenty in the now-deleted article "Christian arguments over same-sex marriage." I provided both sides of the issue, but what angered me was some folks here seemed to want to censor the whole thing. I spent hours writing that article in a vain attempt to be NPOV compliant.-- Pravknight 18:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
:That's fine, but I don't really see why it is relevant. Remember, there is no cabal - what other editors do has no necessary relation to what I or anyone else does. -
Smahoney
20:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
It's just not balanced. I suggest dropping it completely, and linking to another article.-- Pravknight 04:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
The terms "gay marriage", "straight marriage", and all others implying sexual orientation, although popular with the media, are viewed by some as inaccurate. Same-sex marriage partners may be bisexual and not gay, or opposite-gender marriage partners may be bisexual and not heterosexual. Moreover, they claim that sexual orientation has rarely been a legal or religious qualification for marriage (a gay man could still marry a woman). Rather, the relevant qualification is the characteristic sexes of the parties to the marriage.[citation needed]
Hello, I am submitting a letter and a link provided by George Sved of the Swedish Office of the Ombudsman Against Discrimination on Grounds of Sexual Orientation. His letter to me, including the Swedish Government link is as follows: "After an initial report and request by the Ombudsman, several motions in Parliament followed by a Parliament decision requiring the Government to look into the possibility of opening up marriage also for same-sex couples, the Government has appointed a special rapporteur for the task. The report shall be delivered to the Government by March 2007 at the latest. A preliminary overview of the opinion of the different political parties represented in the Swedish Parliament shows a good chance of such a legislative change being approved." Read our Press Release at http://www.homo.se/o.o.i.s/1780 Best Wishes, George Sved www.homo.se