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Nishidani,
Iskandar323,
nableezy,
Tombah,
Drsmoo,
Selfstudier,
Dimadick
I would like to achieve a proper consensus on the matter. TL;DR, in the following paragraph, revert "Palestine" back to "the land"
The paragraph in question:
The sentence previously changed to "Palestine" from "the land".
This has been disputed because:
A question has been raised: "How do Samaritans refer to their land?". I couldn't find a solid answer to this question. With that, it was agreed by several editors to change it to something neutral such as "Samaria" or " their homeland".
I would suggest reverting back to "the land" since it has already been stated at the beginning of the paragraph that they believe they are from the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria), so it is clear that "the land" refers to the territory of that kingdom.
This does not mean that the Palestine toponym has no place in this article because clearly, it does! Palestine is the common English name for the land. It is convenient to use "Palestine" and it is no problem when describing Samaritans from an academic perspective. Therefore, in the next paragraph where it says:
We need not change anything, because "the region of Palestine" is strictly an intuitive toponym for the land. "Land of Israel" is clearly not a proper name to use in English or from an academic perspective, unless we are strictly speaking about people who use this term (which is apparently not the case).
Please state whether you support my proposition, agree in principle but have a different proposition, or disagree.-- Bolter21 ( talk to me) 09:06, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
"They believe that ..."and does not imply objectivity. Iskandar323 ( talk) 11:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
I do think it’s interesting that Samaritan Chronicles and other histories don’t reflect much on the Babylonian exile. I’m not sure what justifies it being in the lead at all. I added the bit about the Samaritan view attributing the schism to Eli, which does appear to be prominent in Samaritan understanding. Drsmoo ( talk) 01:26, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
"preserved by those Israelites who remained in Palestine during the Babylonian captivity;"altogether - the summary works absolutely fine without going into any detail on the (surely complex) circumstances in which Samaritanism and mainstream Judaism became differentiated. OR, the last portion
"brought back by Judeans returning from Babylonian captivity"could also be removed while still leaving a perfectly adequate summary, rendering, with a little further editing, something like: They believe that Samaritanism is the true religion of the ancient Israelites, and regard mainstream Judaism as a closely related but altered religion. Iskandar323 ( talk) 06:03, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
Well it's been sorted now. Thanks one and all. Romomusicfan ( talk) 09:08, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
There material on the Samaritan revolts needs a lot of work and better sourcing, both here and on the Samaritan revolts page. In this diff, material on the aftermath of the revolts was added to the lead, but I checked and the body barely mentions any of this and certainly not with these words. The last paragraph of the section of the page on Byzantine times comes the closest, but this is unsourced, and the material is only covered in a marginally better manner on the main page. As I mentioned in my edit summary, there's some way to go before we can stand up the removed statement. Iskandar323 ( talk) 11:23, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
"In the eighth chapter of Antiquities, Josephus tells the story of the priest Manasseh, the brother of the high priest at the Jerusalem temple. Manasseh was married to Nicaso, the daughter of Sanballat, the governor of Samaria.12 Due to the prophet Ezra’s reforms regarding the marriages to Gentiles some Israelites had entered into during the Babylonian captivity,13 the elders in Jerusalem were not willing to allow Manasseh to continue in aiding his brother in the Jerusalem temple because he was married to someone outside the covenant. The returning Jews from Babylon did not believe that the Samaritans worshipped YHWH, but this was likely not the case.14 Accordingly, the elders told Manasseh that he must either divorce his wife, or never work at the altar in the temple again.15 Manasseh told his father-in-law, Sanballat, that although he loved his wife, he would not allow himself to be deprived of working at the altar to stay with her. Sanballat promised Manasseh that if he would not divorce Nicaso, then Sanballat would supply Manasseh not only with a temple to work in but a high priesthood position as well.16 Josephus wrote that this interaction between Sanballat and Manasseh took place contemporarily with Alexander the Great’s conquest of the Near East around 332 BCE.17 However, in Nehemiah 13 this event is also alluded to when referring to the marriage of Levites to foreign wives. “And one of the sons of Jehoiada, son of the high priest Eliashib, was the son-in-law of Sanballat the Horonite; I chased him away from me.”18 This offers two separate dates for the initial construction of the Mount Gerizim temple based on three separate literary passages: around 332 BCE during the conquests of Alexander the Great as told by Josephus: a century earlier, during the time of Nehemiah and the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, as shown through the passage in Nehemiah; and in the fourteenth century CE writings of Abu’l Fath. The strong archaeological evidence shown by Magen’s excavations makes an earlier dating preferable and shows the growing contention between the two peoples, because the temples would be going up at the same time."
[1]
Why no mention of Sanballat or (the later) Mannasseh in the article? I shall leave this alone for a while to give people a chance to speak on this thread or forever hold their peace.
If no one has any objections forthcoming, I will post my own rewrite of the above text into the Josephus section with the above URL as a reference.
Romomusicfan (
talk) 12:35, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
In /info/en/?search=Jews we have this Jews ( Hebrew: יְהוּדִים, ISO 259-2: Yehudim, Israeli pronunciation: [jehuˈdim]) or Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group and nation originating from the Israelites and Hebrews And in this /info/en/?search=Israelites The Jews and the Samaritans are descendants of the ancient Israelites. Therefore I cannot see why this Samaritans article should have this Samaritans (/səˈmærɪtənz/; Samaritan Hebrew: ࠔࠠࠌࠝࠓࠩࠉࠌ,romanized: Šā̊merīm, transl. Guardians/Keepers [of the Torah]; Hebrew: שומרונים, romanized: Šōmrōnīm; Arabic: السامريون, romanized: as-Sāmiriyyūn) are an ethnoreligious group who claim descendance from the ancient Israelites. In both cases, NPOV and consistency between articles should result in the rewording as follows. Samaritans (/səˈmærɪtənz/; Samaritan Hebrew: ࠔࠠࠌࠝࠓࠩࠉࠌ,romanized: Šā̊merīm, transl. Guardians/Keepers [of the Torah]; Hebrew: שומרונים, romanized: Šōmrōnīm; Arabic: السامريون, romanized: as-Sāmiriyyūn) are an ethnoreligious group who descend from the ancient Israelites. AND Samaritans descend from the northern Israelite tribes who were not deported by the Neo-Assyrian Empire after the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel. Evidence for both Jewish and Samaritan claims to their origins needs to be treated the same. Pngeditor ( talk) 07:07, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
"belonging to the worldwide group that constitutes, through descent or conversion, a continuation of the ancient ...Iskandar323 ( talk) 07:28, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
Well done, everyone. The skepticism over Samaritan traditions of origin stems from ancient Jewish, dismissive polemics against a people they competed with. While in the article Jews (untouchable in its POV sacrality) we have for decades the lead stating:
Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים, ISO 259-2: Yehudim, Israeli pronunciation: [jehuˈdim]) or Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group[10] and nation[11][12] originating from the Israelites[13][14][15] and Hebrews[16][17] of historical Israel and Judah.
which repeats a claim (As any rabbi competent in modern historiography will confirm, Jews have their origin in Judaism, not in an ethnos) as a fact, this cannot be tolerated for Samaritans and we are now adopting language which makes them less authentic than Jews, their historical religious adversaries. This is particularly comical because the best genetic evidence suggest that, to the degree that method can allow valid historical deductions, Samaritans bear lineages that indicate a pre-Assyrian Israelite lineage. Congratulations. Nishidani ( talk) 13:05, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
I noticed a mention of members of Brazil in the article, but seems it should be noted these appear to be very recent converts? [3] FunkMonk ( talk) 15:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
"Kyriat Luza, their small village located on Mount Gerizim, attracts more and more tourists each year, particularly on the occasion of the Samaritan Passover, during which about fifty sheep are sacrificed... the ceremony brings together Palestinians, Israelis, and many foreign tourists curious to attend a ritual supposedly representing a centuries-old heritage... Samaritans are perfectly in line with... globalized societies. They export their tehina, amulets and liturgical chants, promote the digitization of liturgical manuscripts, organize conferences on Samaritanism... [At the Samaritan Passover], speeches, both those that the Israeli and Palestinian political representatives present and those of the media, portray the Samaritans as living remains of biblical history... tourism in Kiryat Luzah has been accompanied by the emergence of new practices... internet, guided tours, informative leaflets, spectacularization of rituals... development of a restaurant “The Good Samaritan” and a visitors’ center. [For Passover] plastic chairs are placed for Palestinian and Israeli political and military figures. During the ceremony, a special time is given for official greetings and handshakes between [them] and the Samaritans... Samaritan representatives declare their aspiration to become a “bridge for peace”. They have perfectly incorporated the imagery and expectations of tourists seeking an “authentic” experience."
"....groups of people who express the desire to become Samaritans have emerged abroad, especially in Brazil. This phenomenon is particularly unusual since it involves the development of transnational communities without migration. The Samaritans refuse to use the term “conversion” because the formal process that characterizes conversion does not exist in Samaritanism. The “entrances into Samaritanism” in Brazil, which began in 2015, now number approximately 300 people."
“Neo-Samaritans” from Brazil and elsewhere are perceived as more valuable if they remain outside the borders of Israeli-Palestinian territory. Their existence then contributes to legitimizing the Samaritans’ self-designation as keepers (shômrîm) of the authentic tradition. Moreover, their active participation on social networks integrates the process already initiated by cultural entrepreneurs... one of the steps in changing the identification of Brazilian Samaritans is to photograph oneself beside a laminated amulet containing a biblical verse in Samaritan Hebrew. The photograph is then published on social networks such as Facebook."
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that a map or maps be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Wikipedians in Israel may be able to help! |
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
Nishidani,
Iskandar323,
nableezy,
Tombah,
Drsmoo,
Selfstudier,
Dimadick
I would like to achieve a proper consensus on the matter. TL;DR, in the following paragraph, revert "Palestine" back to "the land"
The paragraph in question:
The sentence previously changed to "Palestine" from "the land".
This has been disputed because:
A question has been raised: "How do Samaritans refer to their land?". I couldn't find a solid answer to this question. With that, it was agreed by several editors to change it to something neutral such as "Samaria" or " their homeland".
I would suggest reverting back to "the land" since it has already been stated at the beginning of the paragraph that they believe they are from the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria), so it is clear that "the land" refers to the territory of that kingdom.
This does not mean that the Palestine toponym has no place in this article because clearly, it does! Palestine is the common English name for the land. It is convenient to use "Palestine" and it is no problem when describing Samaritans from an academic perspective. Therefore, in the next paragraph where it says:
We need not change anything, because "the region of Palestine" is strictly an intuitive toponym for the land. "Land of Israel" is clearly not a proper name to use in English or from an academic perspective, unless we are strictly speaking about people who use this term (which is apparently not the case).
Please state whether you support my proposition, agree in principle but have a different proposition, or disagree.-- Bolter21 ( talk to me) 09:06, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
"They believe that ..."and does not imply objectivity. Iskandar323 ( talk) 11:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
I do think it’s interesting that Samaritan Chronicles and other histories don’t reflect much on the Babylonian exile. I’m not sure what justifies it being in the lead at all. I added the bit about the Samaritan view attributing the schism to Eli, which does appear to be prominent in Samaritan understanding. Drsmoo ( talk) 01:26, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
"preserved by those Israelites who remained in Palestine during the Babylonian captivity;"altogether - the summary works absolutely fine without going into any detail on the (surely complex) circumstances in which Samaritanism and mainstream Judaism became differentiated. OR, the last portion
"brought back by Judeans returning from Babylonian captivity"could also be removed while still leaving a perfectly adequate summary, rendering, with a little further editing, something like: They believe that Samaritanism is the true religion of the ancient Israelites, and regard mainstream Judaism as a closely related but altered religion. Iskandar323 ( talk) 06:03, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
Well it's been sorted now. Thanks one and all. Romomusicfan ( talk) 09:08, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
There material on the Samaritan revolts needs a lot of work and better sourcing, both here and on the Samaritan revolts page. In this diff, material on the aftermath of the revolts was added to the lead, but I checked and the body barely mentions any of this and certainly not with these words. The last paragraph of the section of the page on Byzantine times comes the closest, but this is unsourced, and the material is only covered in a marginally better manner on the main page. As I mentioned in my edit summary, there's some way to go before we can stand up the removed statement. Iskandar323 ( talk) 11:23, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
"In the eighth chapter of Antiquities, Josephus tells the story of the priest Manasseh, the brother of the high priest at the Jerusalem temple. Manasseh was married to Nicaso, the daughter of Sanballat, the governor of Samaria.12 Due to the prophet Ezra’s reforms regarding the marriages to Gentiles some Israelites had entered into during the Babylonian captivity,13 the elders in Jerusalem were not willing to allow Manasseh to continue in aiding his brother in the Jerusalem temple because he was married to someone outside the covenant. The returning Jews from Babylon did not believe that the Samaritans worshipped YHWH, but this was likely not the case.14 Accordingly, the elders told Manasseh that he must either divorce his wife, or never work at the altar in the temple again.15 Manasseh told his father-in-law, Sanballat, that although he loved his wife, he would not allow himself to be deprived of working at the altar to stay with her. Sanballat promised Manasseh that if he would not divorce Nicaso, then Sanballat would supply Manasseh not only with a temple to work in but a high priesthood position as well.16 Josephus wrote that this interaction between Sanballat and Manasseh took place contemporarily with Alexander the Great’s conquest of the Near East around 332 BCE.17 However, in Nehemiah 13 this event is also alluded to when referring to the marriage of Levites to foreign wives. “And one of the sons of Jehoiada, son of the high priest Eliashib, was the son-in-law of Sanballat the Horonite; I chased him away from me.”18 This offers two separate dates for the initial construction of the Mount Gerizim temple based on three separate literary passages: around 332 BCE during the conquests of Alexander the Great as told by Josephus: a century earlier, during the time of Nehemiah and the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, as shown through the passage in Nehemiah; and in the fourteenth century CE writings of Abu’l Fath. The strong archaeological evidence shown by Magen’s excavations makes an earlier dating preferable and shows the growing contention between the two peoples, because the temples would be going up at the same time."
[1]
Why no mention of Sanballat or (the later) Mannasseh in the article? I shall leave this alone for a while to give people a chance to speak on this thread or forever hold their peace.
If no one has any objections forthcoming, I will post my own rewrite of the above text into the Josephus section with the above URL as a reference.
Romomusicfan (
talk) 12:35, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
In /info/en/?search=Jews we have this Jews ( Hebrew: יְהוּדִים, ISO 259-2: Yehudim, Israeli pronunciation: [jehuˈdim]) or Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group and nation originating from the Israelites and Hebrews And in this /info/en/?search=Israelites The Jews and the Samaritans are descendants of the ancient Israelites. Therefore I cannot see why this Samaritans article should have this Samaritans (/səˈmærɪtənz/; Samaritan Hebrew: ࠔࠠࠌࠝࠓࠩࠉࠌ,romanized: Šā̊merīm, transl. Guardians/Keepers [of the Torah]; Hebrew: שומרונים, romanized: Šōmrōnīm; Arabic: السامريون, romanized: as-Sāmiriyyūn) are an ethnoreligious group who claim descendance from the ancient Israelites. In both cases, NPOV and consistency between articles should result in the rewording as follows. Samaritans (/səˈmærɪtənz/; Samaritan Hebrew: ࠔࠠࠌࠝࠓࠩࠉࠌ,romanized: Šā̊merīm, transl. Guardians/Keepers [of the Torah]; Hebrew: שומרונים, romanized: Šōmrōnīm; Arabic: السامريون, romanized: as-Sāmiriyyūn) are an ethnoreligious group who descend from the ancient Israelites. AND Samaritans descend from the northern Israelite tribes who were not deported by the Neo-Assyrian Empire after the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel. Evidence for both Jewish and Samaritan claims to their origins needs to be treated the same. Pngeditor ( talk) 07:07, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
"belonging to the worldwide group that constitutes, through descent or conversion, a continuation of the ancient ...Iskandar323 ( talk) 07:28, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
Well done, everyone. The skepticism over Samaritan traditions of origin stems from ancient Jewish, dismissive polemics against a people they competed with. While in the article Jews (untouchable in its POV sacrality) we have for decades the lead stating:
Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים, ISO 259-2: Yehudim, Israeli pronunciation: [jehuˈdim]) or Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group[10] and nation[11][12] originating from the Israelites[13][14][15] and Hebrews[16][17] of historical Israel and Judah.
which repeats a claim (As any rabbi competent in modern historiography will confirm, Jews have their origin in Judaism, not in an ethnos) as a fact, this cannot be tolerated for Samaritans and we are now adopting language which makes them less authentic than Jews, their historical religious adversaries. This is particularly comical because the best genetic evidence suggest that, to the degree that method can allow valid historical deductions, Samaritans bear lineages that indicate a pre-Assyrian Israelite lineage. Congratulations. Nishidani ( talk) 13:05, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
I noticed a mention of members of Brazil in the article, but seems it should be noted these appear to be very recent converts? [3] FunkMonk ( talk) 15:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
"Kyriat Luza, their small village located on Mount Gerizim, attracts more and more tourists each year, particularly on the occasion of the Samaritan Passover, during which about fifty sheep are sacrificed... the ceremony brings together Palestinians, Israelis, and many foreign tourists curious to attend a ritual supposedly representing a centuries-old heritage... Samaritans are perfectly in line with... globalized societies. They export their tehina, amulets and liturgical chants, promote the digitization of liturgical manuscripts, organize conferences on Samaritanism... [At the Samaritan Passover], speeches, both those that the Israeli and Palestinian political representatives present and those of the media, portray the Samaritans as living remains of biblical history... tourism in Kiryat Luzah has been accompanied by the emergence of new practices... internet, guided tours, informative leaflets, spectacularization of rituals... development of a restaurant “The Good Samaritan” and a visitors’ center. [For Passover] plastic chairs are placed for Palestinian and Israeli political and military figures. During the ceremony, a special time is given for official greetings and handshakes between [them] and the Samaritans... Samaritan representatives declare their aspiration to become a “bridge for peace”. They have perfectly incorporated the imagery and expectations of tourists seeking an “authentic” experience."
"....groups of people who express the desire to become Samaritans have emerged abroad, especially in Brazil. This phenomenon is particularly unusual since it involves the development of transnational communities without migration. The Samaritans refuse to use the term “conversion” because the formal process that characterizes conversion does not exist in Samaritanism. The “entrances into Samaritanism” in Brazil, which began in 2015, now number approximately 300 people."
“Neo-Samaritans” from Brazil and elsewhere are perceived as more valuable if they remain outside the borders of Israeli-Palestinian territory. Their existence then contributes to legitimizing the Samaritans’ self-designation as keepers (shômrîm) of the authentic tradition. Moreover, their active participation on social networks integrates the process already initiated by cultural entrepreneurs... one of the steps in changing the identification of Brazilian Samaritans is to photograph oneself beside a laminated amulet containing a biblical verse in Samaritan Hebrew. The photograph is then published on social networks such as Facebook."