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There has been much discussion above about these two terms. I'm creating a new heading, because I think both can be determined by the same wiki policy ( WP:NACADEMIC). I think Harris can be called a neuroscientist, but not a philosopher. I think he qualifies as a neuroscientist because he has a PhD, has published and has been cited. These alone would not qualify him as a notable neuroscientist, but he achieves notability for other reasons, such as WP:AUTHOR, so there is no reason not to mention it on his page. However, he does not qualify as a philosopher because he has no such degree, has not published and is not cited. There is an argument above by Jweiss11 that neuroscience is a type of philosophy, and that he has been called "philosopher" in WP:RS. These are good arguments. However, he is not actually a notable neuroscientist (see criteria below), and "philosopher" is used colloquially by none academics. (Remember a philosopher, for our purposes, is not synonymous with a deep thinker or a person who has good ideas; or even with one who discusses philosophy. See, for instance, all the discussion about whether or not Alan Watts is a philosopher. He is not. Here are the criteria by which one is determined to be notable in an academic field, per WP:NACADEMIC:
Harris scores a zero for both neuroscientist and philosopher. You could make an argument as a neuroscientist he qualifies for #7 "substantial impact outside academia" however, Sam collected his PhD after being a public intellectual, so this is not the story of a neuroscientist who became a public figure, but of a public figure who became a mediocre neuroscientist. But as I said above, he should get a pass for neuroscientist, but not philosopher. Namaste DolyaIskrina ( talk) 21:57, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
If the significance of a person's work in a discipline is demonstrated by how independent reliable sources treat him and his works, Harris clearly qualifies as a philosopher. Independent reliable sources routinely refer to him as a philosopher. His works have been cited and discussed in peer-reviewed philosophy papers. The philosopher Daniel Dennett's Reflections on Sam Harris' Free Will in the peer-reviewed Rivista Internazionale di Filosofia e Psicologia is an example of the latter. Best, Inimesh ( talk) 11:13, 17 September 2020 (UTC)"The person's research has had a significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources."
talk:DolyaIskrina|talk]]) 04:03, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
@ DolyaIskrina: I don't see the need for reluctance here. You seem to be comparing Harris being a philosopher with him being a "marksman", which is deeply flawed. We don't have an extensive number of reliable sources, which range from The Washington Post to The Guardian, calling Harris a "marksman" at all. Also, what Harris "wants" might be irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but as far as I know, Harris has expressed his dislike for needless philosophical jargon, but he has never objected to someone's description of him as a philosopher. Harris was on BBC's HARDTalk recently, and Stephen Sackur did introduce him as a philosopher (among other things). In addition, you seem to be under the impression that it's almost only the popular media that has described Harris as a philosopher. Please know that the search queries "philosopher Sam Harris", "philosopher and neuroscientist Sam Harris", and "philosopher and author Sam Harris" return a total of 125 results in Google Scholar and quite a number of results in Google Books as well. Although we already have a couple of examples of philosophers describing Harris as a philosopher (and there could be more), WP:RS in general is the strongest argument here. Do we have a consensus? Inimesh ( talk) 08:27, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
"Academics meeting none of these conditions may still be notable if they meet the conditions of WP:BIO or other notability criteria."
@ DolyaIskrina: We seem to have a consensus, but it seems to me we're referring to different policies here. If an academic is someone who is affiliated with a university (even just as a researcher), as far as I know, Harris is not an academic, but I'm not sure if he had an academic affiliation as a researcher in the past. If that is the case, I don't think it makes sense to cite WP:NACADEMIC to justify calling him a philosopher or a neuroscientist. The philosopher article that the term in the lead links to defines a modern philosopher simply as an "intellectual who contributes to one or more branches of philosophy, such as aesthetics, ethics, epistemology, philosophy of science, logic, metaphysics, social theory, and political philosophy," and not necessarily as someone who does academic philosophy. Likewise, a neuroscientist is someone who "has specialised knowledge in the field of neuroscience". So Harris is a philosopher and neuroscientist not as per WP:NACADEMIC but on the basis of his contributions in the form of philosophical works and specialization in neuroscience respectively, as substantiated by WP:RS. By the way, when I wrote my first reply, I was under the impression WP:NACADEMIC laid out the criteria for establishing a person's notability in an academic field of study, not necessarily exclusive to people who work in the academia. Inimesh ( talk) 10:25, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
I just want to add that, in general, I disagree with the use of WP:NACADEMIC or other notability criteria to determine whether labels such as neuroscientist should go in the first sentence of a WP page. That is not what notability criteria are made for, and if we want to extend them to apply to that, it's a bigger discussion that should be had on a page like WP:NACADEMIC. Jmill1806 ( talk) 13:25, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
I assume we all agree that Samuel Shenton is not an astronomer, correct? Yet he had a huge impact on non-academic "astronomy" by founding the flat earth society.
Sam Harris, similarly, has had a huge impact on non-academic "philosophy" but is widely regarded as a joke by academics.
So sorry to resurrect an old conversation, but I move he be referred to rather as a pseudo philosopher, or simply an author discussing free will and ethics without any academic qualifications or significance. Drazepp ( talk) 19:42, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
References
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Steven Cook which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 11:24, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Steven Cook which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 12:37, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Sam frequently has William MacAskill on his podcast/app to discuss Effective Altruism. I think it might be appropriate to list MacAskill under "influenced" in the sidebar bio? Kleinhern ( talk) 20:07, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
@ MagicatthemovieS: This is a pretty serious charge, I suggest if we are going to categorize him as such it needs to be backed up by multiple reliable sources, and not opinion pieces. Merely talking with Charles Murray and expressing some level of agreement is not sufficient in my opinion. Remember this is a BLP and the standards for inclusion are higher. – CWenger ( ^ • @) 04:38, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sam Harris article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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1,
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10Auto-archiving period: 28 days
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Frequently asked questions
|
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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![]() | This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
There has been much discussion above about these two terms. I'm creating a new heading, because I think both can be determined by the same wiki policy ( WP:NACADEMIC). I think Harris can be called a neuroscientist, but not a philosopher. I think he qualifies as a neuroscientist because he has a PhD, has published and has been cited. These alone would not qualify him as a notable neuroscientist, but he achieves notability for other reasons, such as WP:AUTHOR, so there is no reason not to mention it on his page. However, he does not qualify as a philosopher because he has no such degree, has not published and is not cited. There is an argument above by Jweiss11 that neuroscience is a type of philosophy, and that he has been called "philosopher" in WP:RS. These are good arguments. However, he is not actually a notable neuroscientist (see criteria below), and "philosopher" is used colloquially by none academics. (Remember a philosopher, for our purposes, is not synonymous with a deep thinker or a person who has good ideas; or even with one who discusses philosophy. See, for instance, all the discussion about whether or not Alan Watts is a philosopher. He is not. Here are the criteria by which one is determined to be notable in an academic field, per WP:NACADEMIC:
Harris scores a zero for both neuroscientist and philosopher. You could make an argument as a neuroscientist he qualifies for #7 "substantial impact outside academia" however, Sam collected his PhD after being a public intellectual, so this is not the story of a neuroscientist who became a public figure, but of a public figure who became a mediocre neuroscientist. But as I said above, he should get a pass for neuroscientist, but not philosopher. Namaste DolyaIskrina ( talk) 21:57, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
If the significance of a person's work in a discipline is demonstrated by how independent reliable sources treat him and his works, Harris clearly qualifies as a philosopher. Independent reliable sources routinely refer to him as a philosopher. His works have been cited and discussed in peer-reviewed philosophy papers. The philosopher Daniel Dennett's Reflections on Sam Harris' Free Will in the peer-reviewed Rivista Internazionale di Filosofia e Psicologia is an example of the latter. Best, Inimesh ( talk) 11:13, 17 September 2020 (UTC)"The person's research has had a significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources."
talk:DolyaIskrina|talk]]) 04:03, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
@ DolyaIskrina: I don't see the need for reluctance here. You seem to be comparing Harris being a philosopher with him being a "marksman", which is deeply flawed. We don't have an extensive number of reliable sources, which range from The Washington Post to The Guardian, calling Harris a "marksman" at all. Also, what Harris "wants" might be irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but as far as I know, Harris has expressed his dislike for needless philosophical jargon, but he has never objected to someone's description of him as a philosopher. Harris was on BBC's HARDTalk recently, and Stephen Sackur did introduce him as a philosopher (among other things). In addition, you seem to be under the impression that it's almost only the popular media that has described Harris as a philosopher. Please know that the search queries "philosopher Sam Harris", "philosopher and neuroscientist Sam Harris", and "philosopher and author Sam Harris" return a total of 125 results in Google Scholar and quite a number of results in Google Books as well. Although we already have a couple of examples of philosophers describing Harris as a philosopher (and there could be more), WP:RS in general is the strongest argument here. Do we have a consensus? Inimesh ( talk) 08:27, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
"Academics meeting none of these conditions may still be notable if they meet the conditions of WP:BIO or other notability criteria."
@ DolyaIskrina: We seem to have a consensus, but it seems to me we're referring to different policies here. If an academic is someone who is affiliated with a university (even just as a researcher), as far as I know, Harris is not an academic, but I'm not sure if he had an academic affiliation as a researcher in the past. If that is the case, I don't think it makes sense to cite WP:NACADEMIC to justify calling him a philosopher or a neuroscientist. The philosopher article that the term in the lead links to defines a modern philosopher simply as an "intellectual who contributes to one or more branches of philosophy, such as aesthetics, ethics, epistemology, philosophy of science, logic, metaphysics, social theory, and political philosophy," and not necessarily as someone who does academic philosophy. Likewise, a neuroscientist is someone who "has specialised knowledge in the field of neuroscience". So Harris is a philosopher and neuroscientist not as per WP:NACADEMIC but on the basis of his contributions in the form of philosophical works and specialization in neuroscience respectively, as substantiated by WP:RS. By the way, when I wrote my first reply, I was under the impression WP:NACADEMIC laid out the criteria for establishing a person's notability in an academic field of study, not necessarily exclusive to people who work in the academia. Inimesh ( talk) 10:25, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
I just want to add that, in general, I disagree with the use of WP:NACADEMIC or other notability criteria to determine whether labels such as neuroscientist should go in the first sentence of a WP page. That is not what notability criteria are made for, and if we want to extend them to apply to that, it's a bigger discussion that should be had on a page like WP:NACADEMIC. Jmill1806 ( talk) 13:25, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
I assume we all agree that Samuel Shenton is not an astronomer, correct? Yet he had a huge impact on non-academic "astronomy" by founding the flat earth society.
Sam Harris, similarly, has had a huge impact on non-academic "philosophy" but is widely regarded as a joke by academics.
So sorry to resurrect an old conversation, but I move he be referred to rather as a pseudo philosopher, or simply an author discussing free will and ethics without any academic qualifications or significance. Drazepp ( talk) 19:42, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
References
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Steven Cook which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 11:24, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Steven Cook which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 12:37, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Sam frequently has William MacAskill on his podcast/app to discuss Effective Altruism. I think it might be appropriate to list MacAskill under "influenced" in the sidebar bio? Kleinhern ( talk) 20:07, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
@ MagicatthemovieS: This is a pretty serious charge, I suggest if we are going to categorize him as such it needs to be backed up by multiple reliable sources, and not opinion pieces. Merely talking with Charles Murray and expressing some level of agreement is not sufficient in my opinion. Remember this is a BLP and the standards for inclusion are higher. – CWenger ( ^ • @) 04:38, 17 March 2023 (UTC)