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To include Mormons in the christian section of the article is incorrect. The only group discussed in that article who would claim otherwise are the mormons themselves. Mormons pull some common ideas from Christianity, but then so do Voodoo and Santeria. So if Mormons are included in the Christian section, then the two aforementioned religions should be included as well. The other option would be to create a new section (I would have no idea what to call it). That section could include (for lack of a better word) "fringe" groups who hold to doctrines that are so far removed from christian belief that the the doctrines nullify each other. ... The point made regarding 'without works faith is dead' is fallacial. Those verses do not refer to salvation, they refer to sanctification. It is true that after salvation our work is not yet done. After salvation the process of being made holy starts (i.e., sanctification). We are called to strive for holiness ("Be holy, as your Father in Heaven is holy."), and this process can only start once the barrier of sin is removed...
This next point is not really related directly to the topic, but it refers to comments made about the topic...
If I was trying to make a point regarding salvation to a Jew, I would have to speak from the Old Testament for it to carry any weight with him/her, since Jews don't recognize the New Testament.. By the same token, a mormon trying to make a doctrinal point to Christians would need to use the Old and New Testaments only. Using the book of mormon to support an argument made to a Christian does not carry any weight, since we believe that Joseph Smith made it all up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Virtua67 ( talk • contribs) 01:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Need to add something on Anonymous Christian-- Firefly322 ( talk) 16:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Arminianism section of the Salvation article appears to me some misinformation.
"However, John Wesley taught that continued backsliding could inevitably lead to loss of faith, and consequently salvation, if left uncorrected."
This was not Wesley's position. Wesley's clearly taught that committing sin was the grounds for loss of faith which is lose of salvation. Lose of faith didn't require continued sin accord to him.
I will drop back a bit later with citations for what I think is the correct position and what I suggest the article should be changed to. In the mean time perhaps there can be some input on this. bobmutch ( talk) 02:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This edit shows the removal by Slrubenstein of an introductory paragraph to the Judaism section written by me. Wheras my version tries to be categorical and logical in treating the concept within Judaism, Slr's version simply states that "Death and the question of life after death are not contral[sic] concerns in Judaism." I don't know if this is actually true, though I know Slr will come up sooner or later with a source to support this statement. Certainly Judaism has the concept of Olam Haba, and the Mishnah states, "this world is like a lobby before the World-To-Come. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall." SLr has not provided a source yet, so sourcing must not be the issue. Hence, he apparent dislikes using the basic abstract categorizations of salvation's dominant aspects, or even the relation of salvation to Judaism itself — which would appear to belie its inclusion in this article. Note, his statement "not particularly c[e]ntral" does not indicate that it lacks importance. Further, he redirects his own language with a "nevertheless" introduction to Pharisee-derived treatments, which appear to be quite, for lack of a better term, universalist in nature. Slr, why the redirection? I'm sure there is a better, more encyclopedic way of handling it. - Ste vertigo 22:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I like SLR's decision to split a compound sentence into two, and qualify the judgment concept as belonging to particular religions. My only issue here is the removal of the link to conceptions of God, and this is largely due to the fact that its quite often more appropriate to refer to "x's concept of God" rather than to "the God of x" where x indicates a religion. Its a bit of a tangential issue within this context, but as a rule I would prefer to make a habit of linking to the concepts article. - Ste vertigo 22:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I changed this to a less damning explanation, removing some POV words. Let me know if it is generally accepted. Joshua Ingram ( talk) 00:09, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
An example of redemption using Darth Vader. Seriously? 99.240.146.252 ( talk) 04:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
The following paragraphs were added by User:Afaprof01. I removed it for now, to discuss it on its merits. AfP also removed the "purpose" paragraph and I restored it to the lede, and will discuss its issues here as well.
Salvation in its nature must answer to the plight of humanity as it actually is. It must offer individuals redemption from slavery to sin, forgiveness from guilt, reconciliation for alienation and "renewal for a marred image of God." <ref name="Stagg"> . ''New Testament Theology.'' Broadman Press, 1962. ISBN 0805416137</ref>{{Rp|80|date=June 2009}} World religions share the notion that humanity needs salvation from its present condition since humanity does not manifest its purpose of existence. Author Ernest Valea says three important aspects must be analyzed in assessing the meaning of salvation in those religions:
{{quote|…some religions claim that salvation can be attained by using only inner human resources. They demand the use of meditation, accumulation of wisdom, asceticism, rituals, good deeds, etc. Other religions state that humans can be saved only through the grace granted by an external personal agent. This agent can be God, a ''bodhisattva'', an ''avatar'', etc. One’s duty is to recognize the impossibility of being saved by one's own efforts, and therefore accept grace unconditionally. <ref name="Valea">Valea, Ernest. "Salvation and eternal life in world religions." Comparative Religion. 13 June 2009. http://www.comparativereligion.com/salvation.html#10</ref>}} |
There are a few problems with the text. It is sourced, for one, but to whom? More importantly, while it has elements of conceptuality that are necessary for inclusion in a lede, it gets into specifically nuanced and loaded concepts that are not encyclopedic, and must be attributable to the authors alone. Ledes can and thus must be written in a conceptual, general, flow-chart way, such as to outline all of the relevant concepts, with a little bit about how they interrelate, without getting into particular details and notions.
What we can do, however is deal with some of the concepts. The one that stands out is redemption, and this is something that I admit is a bit lacking in the current version. The important thing here is to deal with the concept of redemption as its usually linked to salvation —not just quoting particular statements as expressed from the point of view of particular theologies —many of which have certain issues, such as that they may implicitly assert divine precedence, ownership, or even others' inadequacy or dispensation. - Ste vertigo 21:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Good to know Frank has an article! Baptist apparently. Now how about Ernest Valea? And is this comment about "critic of a lede" coming from someone who just added a bunch of POV commentary to the lede, and removed certain non-commentary like things from it? Your concept of sources is only valid if you consider WP:WEIGHT, and it is due to weight that I deal with conceptual articles in a conceptual way. This is not to say that statements shouldn't have sources, but rather to say that articles about concepts require a conceptual approach that does not allow quotations of particular individuals to dominate in the place of good NPOV writing that covers the topic. I note that you have not taken up my olive branch about dealing with the "repentance" and "redemption" issues. You should do that promptly.
And even though your selections were somewhat generalistic, there are also special-theology issues with them, such that prohibit them from dominating the lede, regardless of how "sourced" the quotes are. Special theology views, for example, present certain conceptual paradoxes that are difficult to deal with in accord with (holy) NPOV. The first is the dubious notion that God loves just them, and noone else. Another fishy notion within special theologies claims that anyone can be saved if they just "repent," or "believe" —there have been real human demons that just don't deserve "salvation," regardless of whether they do either.
And in any case, going back to article issues, does this terse "repent" concept indicate a repentance of sin, or (more particularly) repentance of sinful acts, or (even) repentance of "sinful belief" (ie. "you need to convert to our religion now")? Many theologians are notable for their conceptual facility, but in any case to associate salvation::repentance of sin → conversion to the way we think is not particularly clever, interesting, or NPOV, and therefore needs to be isolated.
A while ago, Josh (above) wanted to amend a phrase thusly (underlined):
I noted that this view about conditional salvation upon "repentance" is often tied to a view of salvation upon "conversion of belief." Thus making it problematic, let alone unsuitable. In other words it turns a general conceptual statement into a special salvation concept. Again, special salvation concepts don't belong in the lede, or anywhere else without qualification, classification, categorization, and containment.
So in the lede we have to be extremely conceptual only, and using a concept cloud might work well here to deal with that. No coloration or leanings toward particular theolgies is allowed —we have to separate particular theologies from the concept of salvation, period.
You also raised an issue about my edit with regard to the angels clause saying "Removed "angel" erroneous statement. Angels never were human beings. They are specially created beings. cf. Psalm 8:5." A wonderful comment on your part to be sure because it addresses several conceptual problems on your part, and only one on mine. Mine first:
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Thank you, User:Stevertigo, for taking the time to explain your reasoning. I must admit to finding some of your comments terse and sarcastic and don't believe I deserved that.
I don't know anything about Adventists and can't answer your question.
Re: angels. Am in total disagreement that such misinformation that is completely unsourced and is at best urban legend should be in this article, much less in the lede. The claim of "most people" belief does not justify placement. I cannot find even one citation to back up that proportion. I've always found "most people" to be a Weasel Phrase. Unless the following credible sources are wrong, then the severe criticism you leveled on my effort is uncalled-for:
Seems like you are more concerned about your legalistic views of microcosms (viz., angels when you put a totally unsourced and spurious by all but folk lore standards) and gag at gnats in the name of NPOV violations. At some point, a greater good mentality needs to prevail when someone with good intentions tries to move the intro off the proverbial dime and it ignites an uncalled for flare of accusations of wrong intentions and ineptness.
I believe you to be a very talented and knowledgeable editor. I hope it's my misperception and not your intent that I sense a real negative, critical attitude in your comments (to me and to others). I am not overly sensitive and have fairly thick skin as an academician, but to me your critiques have been quite offensive. I respectfully request a change in your approach to sincere efforts. I'm a volunteer just as you are.
Meanwhile, let's do our best to end up with the best lede possible and believe the best of editing colleagues until someone proves us wrong.
Regards, Afaprof01 ( talk) 22:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Responses (Afaprof01 in quotes, me after)
believe I deserved that." - I disagree. I undid your changes because they were untenable, and asked you to discuss them. You then chose to restore your changes instead of dealing with me directly. I usually keep my sharpness in appropriate degree to the requirements of the situation.
I made an AGP effort and now end up with your "warning, that I will seek to have you blocked for a week to give you time to consider our concepts of neutrality, and whether or not you can write in a manner that is compatible with them." I choose not to play your game any further. It is sheer arrogance.
The article says: "In Christianity Jesus is the source of salvation and faith in his saving power is stressed."
I agree.
Please help me stress this point in article Christian mysticism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Torchrunner ( talk • contribs) 02:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
The first paragraph applies to Christians perhaps but not to Jews. In fact, I do not think salvation is a major issue in Judaism. I would make this article focus on the concept in Christianity. The concept is not universal, or doesn't ean the same thing to all peoples, so this is the place for a content fork - if someone wants to write about salvation in other religions they can, but this article is strong only with regards to Christianity, so why not play to its strengths. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Hard for me to imagine. I have seen reform prayerbooks and like conservative and orthodox, they are about judgment. The High Holidays has God reviewing our actions over the past year to weigh the good and the bad and then to judge us. Our bad actions fall into two classes: against others, and against God. We can plea for mercy for our wrongs to God, and God forgives (but mercy and forgiveness are not the same thing as salvation). Of course, God cannot forgive us for wrongs committed against other people; during the High Holiday period we have to seek them out and ask forgiveness fom them personaly. This is not considered salvation either, een though it counts on the books as much as wrongs against God. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm just going to go ahead and remove Judaism from the article, the concept of 'salvation', especially as defined in the article, is simply absent from Judaism. There is no original sin which Jews need salvation from, there is no savior through which salvation may occur, and there is no eternal damnation as the punishment for not having salvation - Judaism doesn't even have a hell. While there is the concept of reward and punishment, that can hardly be considered the same thing as 'salvation' to anyone being somewhat objective.
To define it as an avoidance to a spiritual death is simply misleading - and contradicts with the usage of the word in the very next paragraph.
How is the usage the same in those two quoted sentence fragments? If they were to be combined: Since humanity "does not manifest its purpose of existence" then G-d "'saves' humanity from spiritual death or eternal damnation by providing for them an eternal life" - clearly illogical. Why would the lack of a spiritual death mean the same thing as humanity not living (or dying?) up to its expectations and therefore needing to be found? Without trying to shoehorn Judaism into an inappropriate article, I'll let others decide which definition they would like to use in defining their own concepts. 24.47.151.139 ( talk) 16:00, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
The key concept presented in the lead, in the sense of applying to more than one religion, is that the soul is "lost" at birth due to nature of human existence. It is an ORIGINAL condition for an individual that has nothing to do with moral responsibility or sin/redemption in the sense of action/inaction producing sin. Martindo ( talk) 09:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
It's three and a half years later, and the lead on the article still refers to Judaism. Having grown up Jewish, I can assure you that the concept isn't part of the Jewish mainstream, if it exists at all. I'd take it out right now, but I don't want to get into an argument, or edit war. However, I would appreciate if if whoever wrote that sentence either justifies it or removes it because it's Just Plain Wrong. JDZeff ( talk) 01:51, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
It may be fair to say that in contemporary Judaism, certainly in the Reformed and Reconstructionist branches, believe in the concept of salvation or in any kind of Resurrection has been de-emphasized, however, this does not appear to be the case in Orthodox or Karaite Judaism, at least not in a manner sufficiently unambiguous to warrant Judaism being removed entirely. Additionally, all available evidence suggests that the Pharisees at least believed fervently in the concept of resurrection, and of salvation as the fruits of vigorous adherence to the Torah, and in this respect they differed from the Sadducees. It also strikes me that removing the section on Judaism from the article might be anti-Semitic, especially if one abstracts salvation to the point of referring to the fruits of faith that all religions promise; in Western society, where the vocabulary we use to discuss religion is largely shaped by Christianity, using Judeo-Christian terminology to understand the benefits promised through other religions, in the same manner that Christianity offers the promise of salvation, strikes me as being entirely reasonable. That said, polemics should be avoided, and those without a direct theological understanding of the issues involved should not comment. I removed a sentence from the paragraph on Judaism which stated that Judaism differs from Christianity in believing in corporate rather than individual salvation; if JDZeff is right, Judaism doesn't believe in salvation at all (although the evidence I've seen suggests that it does); however, certainly, that was a misleading comparison to make to Christianity (and indeed, it probably wasn't a Jew who made it), for as all serious scholars of religion know, Christianity does not uniformly adhere to the view of individual, personal salvation exemplified in the West, there is also an alternative interpretation of shared, collective salvation (an ecclesiological view, if you will), which regards the Church in the same way it was argued the Jewish faith regards Israel. There is an extreme need, therefore, for tolerance, impassioned analysis of historical doctrines (which may, in the case of Judaism, be less prevalent today), and loving interfaith dialogue on this page. I personally would not be opposed if there were even a section on atheism, since many atheists have espoused a Utopian view of a purely atheistic society, that resembles a religious conviction in Salvation, Nirvana, et cetera. But let us neither descend into rabid wars of religion, nor omit or paper over historical details of religions that might be at odds with how those religions are largely practiced in a contemporary context. Wgw2024 ( talk) 02:07, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
While I appreciate the humor in the title of the thread, the idea proposed by Slrubenstein is one that needs to be dealt with. In essence, he is either saying that " salvation" is either an exclusively Christian concept (fact?) or something that has nothing to do with Jews, or else he's saying that articles in general cannot be objective and conceptual - such that first treat the most general and universal meaning of a term. User:Afaprof1 has largely Christianized that article, and Slrubenstein's argument there that the article should further "play to its strengths" is an editorial error (and probably also some kind of liturgical pun).
The concept (whatever it's called: " atomism?" "dissolutionism?") is essentially that Wikipedia should be made up of scattered and discrete articles - one for each different ethno-cultural concept - and disregard treatment of basic universal conceptualizations that tie such concepts together. The objective definition of salvation is not "salvation from sin [through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ (who makes scarlet robes as white as the lamb)]" - that's a Christian definition. The definitive objective meaning is simple and twofold:
Theologically speaking, there's also some kind of conditional, contingent relationship between them. ;-) But that's basically it. Within these two concepts we must deal categorically with the basic conceptual types: Absolute, Universal, Conditional, and Special [salvation]. Objectivity can work wonders. - Stevertigo ( w | t | e) 23:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Martindo responded on my talk - with my responses:
First a note of thanks, Stevertigo, for cleaning up the numbering of my counter-counter-comments. Now, here's the weasel from the June version whose URL you give above:
The purpose of salvation is debated (compare purpose of life), but in general most theologians agree that God devised and implemented His plan of salvation because He regards human beings as His children and loves them.
Who are the "most theologians"? Come to think of it, the whole sentence should have been flagged as citation needed.
I'm a little confused to see my responses to your log and user talk page quoted here. It probably is a good idea to keep all the Talk in one place, so why did you create the log? Martindo ( talk) 22:56, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Noticed that it is no longer valid.
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm#chpt1
Gentoo-Michael ( talk) 02:54, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Re: an editor's concern about capitalizing the “c” in "Church of Christ" or "Churches of Christ." IT SHOULD BE CAPITALIZED IN A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE. The following comes from a Church of Christ source:
Some shrink from capitalizing the “c” in Church of Christ.... “Names of particular associations and proper names resulting from membership in these associations are capitalized.” (Walsh, Plain English Handbook p. 87.) ... Alexander Campbell said when the same charge was made of him, “When communicating with those who do not understand the language of Canaan, we must accommodate our style to their education.” On this point G. C. Brewer wrote: "Some unthinking brethren seem to hold that to spell church with a small “c” avoids making a title or proper name of the phrase ‘church of Christ.’ ...When the sense is plainly a designation—a telling of “what” church is intended—then the phrase is used as a proper name..., to use a small initial letter in a proper name is to violate the rules of grammar. (The Autobiography of G. C. Brewer, p. 138.)
— www.olathecoc.org/bulletins/10-01-06olathecoc.pdf
Afaprof01 ( talk) 03:28, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
One’s duty is to recognize the impossibility of being saved by one's own efforts, and therefore accept grace unconditionally.
The lede currently reads:
I added a {{ clarify}} tag to "resources needed" because that language is jargon and doesn't appear to mean much in this context, or else is subtly POV in its design, perhaps referencing one or more of the Five solas as relevant to this topic.
Its a particular theological position that people must gain qualifications for salvation, and that the properties of such attained qualifications can be then called "resources." The position itself is notably valid, but the language "resources" comes only from that POV. So even though the passage (a quotation of Valea) reads fluidly and appears to be universalist, it isn't, and doesn't belong in the lede.
As used in this context, "resource" means "personal resource" which is a term for some personal quality - character, knowledge, capacity - which facilitates something else. Charisma, for example, can be said to be a personal "resource" which facilitates greater socialization and to some degree interpersonal relationships (though this is debatable). "Salvation" is something that God provides. You can cobble together the intelligences of all the theologians in the world, and they still won't have any capacity to provide salvation. Thus theology is not itself a "resource" for salvation. And the qualities which are not strictly in the bounds of theology which are "resources" for salvation - love, peace, good works - are not "resources" at all, but personal qualities. So, the term is at best Valea's casual jargon, coming from a point of view which regards salvation as a theological achievement, rather than a gift. It needs to be put in context as coming from such POV, or else it needs to be put elsewhere. - Stevertigo ( w | t | e) 17:30, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
The following sentence is obviously not the point of view of every religion, on the meaning of salvation, which this page is about, so I've moved it from the lede to this place on the Talk page.
"One’s duty is to recognize the impossibility of being saved by one's own efforts, and therefore accept grace unconditionally. [1]"
One obvious exception would be the idea of salvation in Buddhism, which this page does seem to incorporate. Even if it is going to be just about the Christian idea of salvation then it needs to be reworded to reflect that this is a view point of Christians, rather than a statement about life in general with a 'should' in it, as if Jay-Z were to say, "Get money, get money," and then it were found on Wikipedia that, "One's duty in life is to get money, get money."
Another big reason for this quote being moved here is that not all Christians believe that salvation occurs by the means of one giving up to God, and this has been a discussion for some time, as to whether salvation comes through one's own efforts or by the grace of God, and by acceptance of God. This argument would need to be mentioned somehow for an idea like this to be present on this page. I think this would be a productive direction for this to go in. makeswell ( talk) 23:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
There is one obvious misrepresentation with the Arminian section used in this article. Using Calvinist authors to express Arminian beliefs would OK, if they accurately described what Arminians hold to. Unfortunately, Steele, Thomas, and Quinn do not accurately describe Arminianism when they write: "The serious effects of the fall did not leave humanity in a state of total spiritual helplessness. (A position known as Semi-pelagianism)." This statement is simply false, especially if anyone has read from the Works of James Arminius or John Wesley. Even Reformed Calvinists, such as Robert A. Peterson and Michael D. Williams, acknowledge that Arminianism is not Semi-Pelagian. They write,
The myth that Arminians are Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian is dispelled by Arminian Scholar Roger Olson in his book Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities (see Myth #6). Olson dispels 10 myths that continue to circulate in popular literature or by word of mouth. He dispels these myths by tracing the Arminian position as espoused by Jacobus Arminius, Simon Episcopius, John Wesley, 19th Century Methodists, and 20th Century Evangelical Arminians. Olson offers a historical mode of argumentation: he identifies the tradition of genuine Arminian thought, distinguishing it from Calvinism on the one side and its supposed bad reputation on the other. This historical approach allows the classical authors to speak for themselves through copious quoting, and accordingly initiates the reader into the Arminian tradition. A must read for anyone wanting to accurately articulate Arminian theology.
Another misrepresentation (but only subtle) found in this article was the phrase: "The Arminian emphasis on free will, or more properly free choice, is important in salvation." Classical Arminians have not emphasized free will as it pertains to salvation, rather, they have emphasized (first and foremost) God's free grace (prevenient grace) given to all sinners, and God's loving intention to provide salvation to all sinners. See Myth #4 and #7 in Olson’s book for documentation of this. It is fair, reasonable, and scholarly, to allow Calvinist and Arminian scholars/theologians to explain their own theological position. Of course, this requires that we do the hard work of reading from their primary writings. Because of these two misrepresentations, I have changed the section on Arminianism. I have copied a section from Arminianism in Wikipedia (with minor editing) that better represents Arminian beliefs. Thanks ClassArm ( talk) 20:26, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
That section closely echoes material written by the same editor in collective salvation, which is up for deletion for being massively POV against liberation theology, social justice, etc. (see Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Christianity#Problem article and the relevant AfD discussion). While I recognize that collective salvation is part of modern Christian conversation, I think the claims in the section here are too broadly generalized to be accurate representations of views of salvation in liberal Christian thought. Notice the snide comment in the opening sentence that emerging and progressive churches "claim" to be part of Christianity. I'd delete the entire section, but I'd like to see what others think is salvageable. Thanks, Aristophanes68 (talk) 00:38, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
99.246.101.166 just re-added a lenghty section on salvation in Islam that's devoid of any secondary sources, with an edit summary of: "You may choose to walk into the nearest mosque and verify this yourself. You must keep in mind that not everyone speaks english, and not evey information exists in all languages." First of all, the English Wikipedia does allow non-English sources if no English sources are available, per WP:NONENG. Secondly, I doubt that there are no English sources on salvation in Islam; Google Books provides lots of results; unfortunately they don't necessarily agree with what we say. For example, this one argues that "salvation" isn't that important a concept in Islam at all, with a single occurrence in the Qu'ran (which 99's lengthy text conveniently omits). Thirdly, "go ask in a mosque" does not satisfy Wikipedia's policy of verifiability. Huon ( talk) 02:52, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately I come back again today after more than a year, and find the section about Islam yet again butchered, misleading, and in its critical parts completely wrong. I gave you truth, I explained to you, and I were patient, but you rather wallow in your own ignorance. Let the scholar of the subject write about the subject, the physicist about physics, the mathematician about mathematics, the Christian about Christianity, the Muslim about Islam. Is Integrity much to ask? Gone are the days when a man walked his words. Or is it perhaps distrust? Truly a thief bars his doors. But perchance it is not more, for we will reap what we saw. I promised myself a time ago to engage not again in this game, for not it but its players. You are left to yourselves and your hands' produce. -- 99.246.173.176 ( talk) 01:52, 22 August 2012 (UTC) (Note that I am "99.246.101.166", and this is not a response to user "Huon"'s comment)
The article contained an image of the sons of Core. On the one hand, Core (or Korah) and his sons are not mentioned at all in the article text, and the image caption did not explain their relevance. On the other hand, I doubt whether not being killed by God can be called "salvation". Thus I have removed the image. Huon ( talk) 19:46, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Should not encyclopædiæ be secular? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.189.165.11 ( talk) 13:24, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
82.15.230.206 removed two sources from the lead as "non-accepted". They were:
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help)I couldn't find out much about the first except a blog comment according to which it is self-published and the authors have no formal theological education. That would probably indeed make it a less than optimal source, though the content currently sourced to Wallace and Rusk was apparently uncontroversial; 82.15.230.206 left it in the article.
Ernest Valea, on the other hand, apparently is a well-known and well-cited "theologian and comparative religion scholar", as a quick Google Scholar search showed. While his personal website is, of course, self-published, he is an expert writing on the area of his expertise, and there is no reason why such a source should not be acceptable.
Furthermore, while I understand 82.15's desire to turn the list in the lead into running text, I don't think his edit, which introduced several paragraphs of unsourced content which partly contradicted sourced content, was actually an improvement. For these reasons I have reverted him. Huon ( talk) 22:54, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
The 1st problem with this topic is to define "Judaism." Does the term exclude the Tanach? IMHO, yes. However, also IMHO, one can discuss SALVATION IN THE MISHNAH. Here for starters is a quote from Kurt Michaelson from the internet:
I just reverted some of EnochBethany's recent changes to the article. In particular:
Huon ( talk) 16:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
"Analogous concepts within other religions, such as nirvana and moksha, are not in fact equivalents to the concept of salvation, not least because these latter concepts are not reliant upon divine agency." This article is misinformed. Likewise, there is a severe and disparate argument on soteriology, which this article claims is directly related to salvation. The text regarding Buddhism on the soteriology article is far from accurate either. If we are going to accept that salvation necessitates a reliance upon a divine agency (a restriction that I would dispute) Buddhism still asserts salvation in Pure Land Buddhism which uses a direct reliance upon a divine agency - Amitābha Buddha. The history of pure land salvation within Buddhism is antique, and may be reliably traced back to India.
Therefore 'salvation' as a term is not exclusive to abrahamic religion, even within the constraint of being reliant upon divine agency.
The dictionary gives two definitions of salvation - neither of which assert the constraint of reliance upon divine agency.
One could argue that sin itself implies divine law, and that the Karma of the Dharma religions has no eye (and therefore one cannot sin in a Dharma religion), but let's use WP as a source: "A sin is an act that violates a known moral rule in a religion". ( 20040302 ( talk) 11:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC))
Paul Williams, Mahayana Buddhism, Routledge 1989 ISBN 0-415-02537-0
p251: The most widespread of cults devoted to Buddhas is that of Amitabha or Amitayus. In contemporary Japanese Buddhism it accounts for more practitioners than any other Buddhist tradition, and in these forms in practice it most nearly approaches a devotional monotheism.
ibid, p259: Through the power of Amitabha even the worst sinner [...] can attain to the Pure Land (Amitabha's pure land)
ibid, p259: Once one abandons recourse to one's own resources all activities can be seen as Other Power, the salvific activity of Amitabha working through us. But reciting his name in accordance with the sutra exemplifies Amitabha's power to save most fully.
( 20040302 ( talk) 09:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
The current article needs WP:RS to back up it's assertion. As I pointed out, there is no basis for the existing argument. Likewise, the article starts with In theology - well, WP isn't solely concerned with theology. It certainly isn't solely concerned with Abrahamic theology. ( 20040302 ( talk) 09:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
The existing introduction (the one favoured by User:Huon) as well as being unrepresentative of a worldwide view of the subject does not have appropriate references. This was noted some time ago and subsequently ignored by this user. Thanks to User:20040302 for appending tags to these. The academic study of soteriology states that salvation is a foundational concept present in the majority of the worlds great religions. According to the Oxford English Dictionary that which is saved is the soul (from sin and its consequences) and it does not necessarily imply divine agency. Soteriology advocates that salvation refers to the end-point or goal of religious practise and is synonymous with the liberation experienced by the saint. From the point of view of metaphysics it refers to the subjective experience of timelessness (eternity) that arises when the psyche has become free from the conditions (called samskaras or sankharas in Indian religion) which limit it in ordinary consciousness. 81.106.127.14 ( talk) 22:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
I have restored the lede back to a version previous to major edits by 81.106.127.14. The diff can be seen here. I welcome discussion on this issue and note that the current version has serious issues which need addressing. The version created by User:81.106.. was too reliant on a Christian-ese concept of sin, and salvation from such sin, that it misses the point that salvation in action is primarily a salvation from the imminent death of the body. Only in its secondary meaning is salvation a salvation from sin. - Stevertigo ( t | c) 01:42, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
That's indeed from Baker's Bible study paper, Truth for Today. For all I can tell, it was self-published by Baker, and I don't think he is an "established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications", the criterion given in WP:SPS for a self-published source to be considered reliable. And while that may not be relevant to his beliefs on salvation and resurrection, Baker seems to have been one of the main adherents of hyperdispensationalism, which is described as a "niche doctrine". That does not inspire much confidence. If this is a central topic of discussion in theology, surely there are papers published in peer-reviewed scholarly journals? Those would be much better sources. Huon ( talk) 02:32, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
The current lede states:
This intro raises a few questions:
Regards, - Stevertigo ( t | c) 05:52, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
81.106.127.14 has changed the lead in an attempt to clarify the distinctions between Protestant and Catholic doctrines of salvation. However, before his edits that paragraph contrasted the Christian views to the Islamic views, and the Islamic position has now been ascribed to Catholic and Orthodox Christianity. I doubt that's correct. And while there are subtle differences between the different branches of Christianity, I don't think they're important enough for the lead of this article which should focus on salvation in general, not just salvation in Christianity. Huon ( talk) 17:44, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
The section on Christianity says this: "Redemption is synonymous with salvation to Christians." This is actually a false (misrepresentative) statement, since the Roman Catholic Church (the largest single Christian denomination on Earth) makes a distinction between redemption and salvation. This is one of the defining characteristics of RC versus Protestant theology. The statement should be amended to say that the two are synonymous to "many" Christians, and the alternate view should be explained and given. I am not sure what sources would be good for citation, but it wasn't too hard for me to find Catholic sources as well as other Christian sources. It's also curious that, as the previous section indicates, the lead on the article had been changed to reflect differences between Protestant and Catholic views but the Christianity section omits the Catholic view. 206.169.175.130 ( talk) 00:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
A fair number of Muslims think that non-Muslims won't necessarily go to Hell. For example; http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/13564/can-mother-teresa-a-non-muslim-go-to-heaven/ and http://www.quora.com/Islam/According-to-Islam-will-non-Muslims-ever-go-to-heaven and there are other people who say it also but I've just given 2 examples. A number of Muslims say that only God knows who will go to Heaven and who won't. Something's going to have to be done. 86.40.141.29 ( talk) 17:54, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
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The section on taoism is barely a stub and has been written poorly. Someone with the speciality should improve it. FropFrop ( talk) 10:02, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
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To include Mormons in the christian section of the article is incorrect. The only group discussed in that article who would claim otherwise are the mormons themselves. Mormons pull some common ideas from Christianity, but then so do Voodoo and Santeria. So if Mormons are included in the Christian section, then the two aforementioned religions should be included as well. The other option would be to create a new section (I would have no idea what to call it). That section could include (for lack of a better word) "fringe" groups who hold to doctrines that are so far removed from christian belief that the the doctrines nullify each other. ... The point made regarding 'without works faith is dead' is fallacial. Those verses do not refer to salvation, they refer to sanctification. It is true that after salvation our work is not yet done. After salvation the process of being made holy starts (i.e., sanctification). We are called to strive for holiness ("Be holy, as your Father in Heaven is holy."), and this process can only start once the barrier of sin is removed...
This next point is not really related directly to the topic, but it refers to comments made about the topic...
If I was trying to make a point regarding salvation to a Jew, I would have to speak from the Old Testament for it to carry any weight with him/her, since Jews don't recognize the New Testament.. By the same token, a mormon trying to make a doctrinal point to Christians would need to use the Old and New Testaments only. Using the book of mormon to support an argument made to a Christian does not carry any weight, since we believe that Joseph Smith made it all up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Virtua67 ( talk • contribs) 01:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Need to add something on Anonymous Christian-- Firefly322 ( talk) 16:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Arminianism section of the Salvation article appears to me some misinformation.
"However, John Wesley taught that continued backsliding could inevitably lead to loss of faith, and consequently salvation, if left uncorrected."
This was not Wesley's position. Wesley's clearly taught that committing sin was the grounds for loss of faith which is lose of salvation. Lose of faith didn't require continued sin accord to him.
I will drop back a bit later with citations for what I think is the correct position and what I suggest the article should be changed to. In the mean time perhaps there can be some input on this. bobmutch ( talk) 02:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This edit shows the removal by Slrubenstein of an introductory paragraph to the Judaism section written by me. Wheras my version tries to be categorical and logical in treating the concept within Judaism, Slr's version simply states that "Death and the question of life after death are not contral[sic] concerns in Judaism." I don't know if this is actually true, though I know Slr will come up sooner or later with a source to support this statement. Certainly Judaism has the concept of Olam Haba, and the Mishnah states, "this world is like a lobby before the World-To-Come. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall." SLr has not provided a source yet, so sourcing must not be the issue. Hence, he apparent dislikes using the basic abstract categorizations of salvation's dominant aspects, or even the relation of salvation to Judaism itself — which would appear to belie its inclusion in this article. Note, his statement "not particularly c[e]ntral" does not indicate that it lacks importance. Further, he redirects his own language with a "nevertheless" introduction to Pharisee-derived treatments, which appear to be quite, for lack of a better term, universalist in nature. Slr, why the redirection? I'm sure there is a better, more encyclopedic way of handling it. - Ste vertigo 22:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I like SLR's decision to split a compound sentence into two, and qualify the judgment concept as belonging to particular religions. My only issue here is the removal of the link to conceptions of God, and this is largely due to the fact that its quite often more appropriate to refer to "x's concept of God" rather than to "the God of x" where x indicates a religion. Its a bit of a tangential issue within this context, but as a rule I would prefer to make a habit of linking to the concepts article. - Ste vertigo 22:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I changed this to a less damning explanation, removing some POV words. Let me know if it is generally accepted. Joshua Ingram ( talk) 00:09, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
An example of redemption using Darth Vader. Seriously? 99.240.146.252 ( talk) 04:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
The following paragraphs were added by User:Afaprof01. I removed it for now, to discuss it on its merits. AfP also removed the "purpose" paragraph and I restored it to the lede, and will discuss its issues here as well.
Salvation in its nature must answer to the plight of humanity as it actually is. It must offer individuals redemption from slavery to sin, forgiveness from guilt, reconciliation for alienation and "renewal for a marred image of God." <ref name="Stagg"> . ''New Testament Theology.'' Broadman Press, 1962. ISBN 0805416137</ref>{{Rp|80|date=June 2009}} World religions share the notion that humanity needs salvation from its present condition since humanity does not manifest its purpose of existence. Author Ernest Valea says three important aspects must be analyzed in assessing the meaning of salvation in those religions:
{{quote|…some religions claim that salvation can be attained by using only inner human resources. They demand the use of meditation, accumulation of wisdom, asceticism, rituals, good deeds, etc. Other religions state that humans can be saved only through the grace granted by an external personal agent. This agent can be God, a ''bodhisattva'', an ''avatar'', etc. One’s duty is to recognize the impossibility of being saved by one's own efforts, and therefore accept grace unconditionally. <ref name="Valea">Valea, Ernest. "Salvation and eternal life in world religions." Comparative Religion. 13 June 2009. http://www.comparativereligion.com/salvation.html#10</ref>}} |
There are a few problems with the text. It is sourced, for one, but to whom? More importantly, while it has elements of conceptuality that are necessary for inclusion in a lede, it gets into specifically nuanced and loaded concepts that are not encyclopedic, and must be attributable to the authors alone. Ledes can and thus must be written in a conceptual, general, flow-chart way, such as to outline all of the relevant concepts, with a little bit about how they interrelate, without getting into particular details and notions.
What we can do, however is deal with some of the concepts. The one that stands out is redemption, and this is something that I admit is a bit lacking in the current version. The important thing here is to deal with the concept of redemption as its usually linked to salvation —not just quoting particular statements as expressed from the point of view of particular theologies —many of which have certain issues, such as that they may implicitly assert divine precedence, ownership, or even others' inadequacy or dispensation. - Ste vertigo 21:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Good to know Frank has an article! Baptist apparently. Now how about Ernest Valea? And is this comment about "critic of a lede" coming from someone who just added a bunch of POV commentary to the lede, and removed certain non-commentary like things from it? Your concept of sources is only valid if you consider WP:WEIGHT, and it is due to weight that I deal with conceptual articles in a conceptual way. This is not to say that statements shouldn't have sources, but rather to say that articles about concepts require a conceptual approach that does not allow quotations of particular individuals to dominate in the place of good NPOV writing that covers the topic. I note that you have not taken up my olive branch about dealing with the "repentance" and "redemption" issues. You should do that promptly.
And even though your selections were somewhat generalistic, there are also special-theology issues with them, such that prohibit them from dominating the lede, regardless of how "sourced" the quotes are. Special theology views, for example, present certain conceptual paradoxes that are difficult to deal with in accord with (holy) NPOV. The first is the dubious notion that God loves just them, and noone else. Another fishy notion within special theologies claims that anyone can be saved if they just "repent," or "believe" —there have been real human demons that just don't deserve "salvation," regardless of whether they do either.
And in any case, going back to article issues, does this terse "repent" concept indicate a repentance of sin, or (more particularly) repentance of sinful acts, or (even) repentance of "sinful belief" (ie. "you need to convert to our religion now")? Many theologians are notable for their conceptual facility, but in any case to associate salvation::repentance of sin → conversion to the way we think is not particularly clever, interesting, or NPOV, and therefore needs to be isolated.
A while ago, Josh (above) wanted to amend a phrase thusly (underlined):
I noted that this view about conditional salvation upon "repentance" is often tied to a view of salvation upon "conversion of belief." Thus making it problematic, let alone unsuitable. In other words it turns a general conceptual statement into a special salvation concept. Again, special salvation concepts don't belong in the lede, or anywhere else without qualification, classification, categorization, and containment.
So in the lede we have to be extremely conceptual only, and using a concept cloud might work well here to deal with that. No coloration or leanings toward particular theolgies is allowed —we have to separate particular theologies from the concept of salvation, period.
You also raised an issue about my edit with regard to the angels clause saying "Removed "angel" erroneous statement. Angels never were human beings. They are specially created beings. cf. Psalm 8:5." A wonderful comment on your part to be sure because it addresses several conceptual problems on your part, and only one on mine. Mine first:
|
Thank you, User:Stevertigo, for taking the time to explain your reasoning. I must admit to finding some of your comments terse and sarcastic and don't believe I deserved that.
I don't know anything about Adventists and can't answer your question.
Re: angels. Am in total disagreement that such misinformation that is completely unsourced and is at best urban legend should be in this article, much less in the lede. The claim of "most people" belief does not justify placement. I cannot find even one citation to back up that proportion. I've always found "most people" to be a Weasel Phrase. Unless the following credible sources are wrong, then the severe criticism you leveled on my effort is uncalled-for:
Seems like you are more concerned about your legalistic views of microcosms (viz., angels when you put a totally unsourced and spurious by all but folk lore standards) and gag at gnats in the name of NPOV violations. At some point, a greater good mentality needs to prevail when someone with good intentions tries to move the intro off the proverbial dime and it ignites an uncalled for flare of accusations of wrong intentions and ineptness.
I believe you to be a very talented and knowledgeable editor. I hope it's my misperception and not your intent that I sense a real negative, critical attitude in your comments (to me and to others). I am not overly sensitive and have fairly thick skin as an academician, but to me your critiques have been quite offensive. I respectfully request a change in your approach to sincere efforts. I'm a volunteer just as you are.
Meanwhile, let's do our best to end up with the best lede possible and believe the best of editing colleagues until someone proves us wrong.
Regards, Afaprof01 ( talk) 22:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Responses (Afaprof01 in quotes, me after)
believe I deserved that." - I disagree. I undid your changes because they were untenable, and asked you to discuss them. You then chose to restore your changes instead of dealing with me directly. I usually keep my sharpness in appropriate degree to the requirements of the situation.
I made an AGP effort and now end up with your "warning, that I will seek to have you blocked for a week to give you time to consider our concepts of neutrality, and whether or not you can write in a manner that is compatible with them." I choose not to play your game any further. It is sheer arrogance.
The article says: "In Christianity Jesus is the source of salvation and faith in his saving power is stressed."
I agree.
Please help me stress this point in article Christian mysticism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Torchrunner ( talk • contribs) 02:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
The first paragraph applies to Christians perhaps but not to Jews. In fact, I do not think salvation is a major issue in Judaism. I would make this article focus on the concept in Christianity. The concept is not universal, or doesn't ean the same thing to all peoples, so this is the place for a content fork - if someone wants to write about salvation in other religions they can, but this article is strong only with regards to Christianity, so why not play to its strengths. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Hard for me to imagine. I have seen reform prayerbooks and like conservative and orthodox, they are about judgment. The High Holidays has God reviewing our actions over the past year to weigh the good and the bad and then to judge us. Our bad actions fall into two classes: against others, and against God. We can plea for mercy for our wrongs to God, and God forgives (but mercy and forgiveness are not the same thing as salvation). Of course, God cannot forgive us for wrongs committed against other people; during the High Holiday period we have to seek them out and ask forgiveness fom them personaly. This is not considered salvation either, een though it counts on the books as much as wrongs against God. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm just going to go ahead and remove Judaism from the article, the concept of 'salvation', especially as defined in the article, is simply absent from Judaism. There is no original sin which Jews need salvation from, there is no savior through which salvation may occur, and there is no eternal damnation as the punishment for not having salvation - Judaism doesn't even have a hell. While there is the concept of reward and punishment, that can hardly be considered the same thing as 'salvation' to anyone being somewhat objective.
To define it as an avoidance to a spiritual death is simply misleading - and contradicts with the usage of the word in the very next paragraph.
How is the usage the same in those two quoted sentence fragments? If they were to be combined: Since humanity "does not manifest its purpose of existence" then G-d "'saves' humanity from spiritual death or eternal damnation by providing for them an eternal life" - clearly illogical. Why would the lack of a spiritual death mean the same thing as humanity not living (or dying?) up to its expectations and therefore needing to be found? Without trying to shoehorn Judaism into an inappropriate article, I'll let others decide which definition they would like to use in defining their own concepts. 24.47.151.139 ( talk) 16:00, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
The key concept presented in the lead, in the sense of applying to more than one religion, is that the soul is "lost" at birth due to nature of human existence. It is an ORIGINAL condition for an individual that has nothing to do with moral responsibility or sin/redemption in the sense of action/inaction producing sin. Martindo ( talk) 09:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
It's three and a half years later, and the lead on the article still refers to Judaism. Having grown up Jewish, I can assure you that the concept isn't part of the Jewish mainstream, if it exists at all. I'd take it out right now, but I don't want to get into an argument, or edit war. However, I would appreciate if if whoever wrote that sentence either justifies it or removes it because it's Just Plain Wrong. JDZeff ( talk) 01:51, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
It may be fair to say that in contemporary Judaism, certainly in the Reformed and Reconstructionist branches, believe in the concept of salvation or in any kind of Resurrection has been de-emphasized, however, this does not appear to be the case in Orthodox or Karaite Judaism, at least not in a manner sufficiently unambiguous to warrant Judaism being removed entirely. Additionally, all available evidence suggests that the Pharisees at least believed fervently in the concept of resurrection, and of salvation as the fruits of vigorous adherence to the Torah, and in this respect they differed from the Sadducees. It also strikes me that removing the section on Judaism from the article might be anti-Semitic, especially if one abstracts salvation to the point of referring to the fruits of faith that all religions promise; in Western society, where the vocabulary we use to discuss religion is largely shaped by Christianity, using Judeo-Christian terminology to understand the benefits promised through other religions, in the same manner that Christianity offers the promise of salvation, strikes me as being entirely reasonable. That said, polemics should be avoided, and those without a direct theological understanding of the issues involved should not comment. I removed a sentence from the paragraph on Judaism which stated that Judaism differs from Christianity in believing in corporate rather than individual salvation; if JDZeff is right, Judaism doesn't believe in salvation at all (although the evidence I've seen suggests that it does); however, certainly, that was a misleading comparison to make to Christianity (and indeed, it probably wasn't a Jew who made it), for as all serious scholars of religion know, Christianity does not uniformly adhere to the view of individual, personal salvation exemplified in the West, there is also an alternative interpretation of shared, collective salvation (an ecclesiological view, if you will), which regards the Church in the same way it was argued the Jewish faith regards Israel. There is an extreme need, therefore, for tolerance, impassioned analysis of historical doctrines (which may, in the case of Judaism, be less prevalent today), and loving interfaith dialogue on this page. I personally would not be opposed if there were even a section on atheism, since many atheists have espoused a Utopian view of a purely atheistic society, that resembles a religious conviction in Salvation, Nirvana, et cetera. But let us neither descend into rabid wars of religion, nor omit or paper over historical details of religions that might be at odds with how those religions are largely practiced in a contemporary context. Wgw2024 ( talk) 02:07, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
While I appreciate the humor in the title of the thread, the idea proposed by Slrubenstein is one that needs to be dealt with. In essence, he is either saying that " salvation" is either an exclusively Christian concept (fact?) or something that has nothing to do with Jews, or else he's saying that articles in general cannot be objective and conceptual - such that first treat the most general and universal meaning of a term. User:Afaprof1 has largely Christianized that article, and Slrubenstein's argument there that the article should further "play to its strengths" is an editorial error (and probably also some kind of liturgical pun).
The concept (whatever it's called: " atomism?" "dissolutionism?") is essentially that Wikipedia should be made up of scattered and discrete articles - one for each different ethno-cultural concept - and disregard treatment of basic universal conceptualizations that tie such concepts together. The objective definition of salvation is not "salvation from sin [through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ (who makes scarlet robes as white as the lamb)]" - that's a Christian definition. The definitive objective meaning is simple and twofold:
Theologically speaking, there's also some kind of conditional, contingent relationship between them. ;-) But that's basically it. Within these two concepts we must deal categorically with the basic conceptual types: Absolute, Universal, Conditional, and Special [salvation]. Objectivity can work wonders. - Stevertigo ( w | t | e) 23:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Martindo responded on my talk - with my responses:
First a note of thanks, Stevertigo, for cleaning up the numbering of my counter-counter-comments. Now, here's the weasel from the June version whose URL you give above:
The purpose of salvation is debated (compare purpose of life), but in general most theologians agree that God devised and implemented His plan of salvation because He regards human beings as His children and loves them.
Who are the "most theologians"? Come to think of it, the whole sentence should have been flagged as citation needed.
I'm a little confused to see my responses to your log and user talk page quoted here. It probably is a good idea to keep all the Talk in one place, so why did you create the log? Martindo ( talk) 22:56, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Noticed that it is no longer valid.
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm#chpt1
Gentoo-Michael ( talk) 02:54, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Re: an editor's concern about capitalizing the “c” in "Church of Christ" or "Churches of Christ." IT SHOULD BE CAPITALIZED IN A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE. The following comes from a Church of Christ source:
Some shrink from capitalizing the “c” in Church of Christ.... “Names of particular associations and proper names resulting from membership in these associations are capitalized.” (Walsh, Plain English Handbook p. 87.) ... Alexander Campbell said when the same charge was made of him, “When communicating with those who do not understand the language of Canaan, we must accommodate our style to their education.” On this point G. C. Brewer wrote: "Some unthinking brethren seem to hold that to spell church with a small “c” avoids making a title or proper name of the phrase ‘church of Christ.’ ...When the sense is plainly a designation—a telling of “what” church is intended—then the phrase is used as a proper name..., to use a small initial letter in a proper name is to violate the rules of grammar. (The Autobiography of G. C. Brewer, p. 138.)
— www.olathecoc.org/bulletins/10-01-06olathecoc.pdf
Afaprof01 ( talk) 03:28, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
One’s duty is to recognize the impossibility of being saved by one's own efforts, and therefore accept grace unconditionally.
The lede currently reads:
I added a {{ clarify}} tag to "resources needed" because that language is jargon and doesn't appear to mean much in this context, or else is subtly POV in its design, perhaps referencing one or more of the Five solas as relevant to this topic.
Its a particular theological position that people must gain qualifications for salvation, and that the properties of such attained qualifications can be then called "resources." The position itself is notably valid, but the language "resources" comes only from that POV. So even though the passage (a quotation of Valea) reads fluidly and appears to be universalist, it isn't, and doesn't belong in the lede.
As used in this context, "resource" means "personal resource" which is a term for some personal quality - character, knowledge, capacity - which facilitates something else. Charisma, for example, can be said to be a personal "resource" which facilitates greater socialization and to some degree interpersonal relationships (though this is debatable). "Salvation" is something that God provides. You can cobble together the intelligences of all the theologians in the world, and they still won't have any capacity to provide salvation. Thus theology is not itself a "resource" for salvation. And the qualities which are not strictly in the bounds of theology which are "resources" for salvation - love, peace, good works - are not "resources" at all, but personal qualities. So, the term is at best Valea's casual jargon, coming from a point of view which regards salvation as a theological achievement, rather than a gift. It needs to be put in context as coming from such POV, or else it needs to be put elsewhere. - Stevertigo ( w | t | e) 17:30, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
The following sentence is obviously not the point of view of every religion, on the meaning of salvation, which this page is about, so I've moved it from the lede to this place on the Talk page.
"One’s duty is to recognize the impossibility of being saved by one's own efforts, and therefore accept grace unconditionally. [1]"
One obvious exception would be the idea of salvation in Buddhism, which this page does seem to incorporate. Even if it is going to be just about the Christian idea of salvation then it needs to be reworded to reflect that this is a view point of Christians, rather than a statement about life in general with a 'should' in it, as if Jay-Z were to say, "Get money, get money," and then it were found on Wikipedia that, "One's duty in life is to get money, get money."
Another big reason for this quote being moved here is that not all Christians believe that salvation occurs by the means of one giving up to God, and this has been a discussion for some time, as to whether salvation comes through one's own efforts or by the grace of God, and by acceptance of God. This argument would need to be mentioned somehow for an idea like this to be present on this page. I think this would be a productive direction for this to go in. makeswell ( talk) 23:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
There is one obvious misrepresentation with the Arminian section used in this article. Using Calvinist authors to express Arminian beliefs would OK, if they accurately described what Arminians hold to. Unfortunately, Steele, Thomas, and Quinn do not accurately describe Arminianism when they write: "The serious effects of the fall did not leave humanity in a state of total spiritual helplessness. (A position known as Semi-pelagianism)." This statement is simply false, especially if anyone has read from the Works of James Arminius or John Wesley. Even Reformed Calvinists, such as Robert A. Peterson and Michael D. Williams, acknowledge that Arminianism is not Semi-Pelagian. They write,
The myth that Arminians are Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian is dispelled by Arminian Scholar Roger Olson in his book Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities (see Myth #6). Olson dispels 10 myths that continue to circulate in popular literature or by word of mouth. He dispels these myths by tracing the Arminian position as espoused by Jacobus Arminius, Simon Episcopius, John Wesley, 19th Century Methodists, and 20th Century Evangelical Arminians. Olson offers a historical mode of argumentation: he identifies the tradition of genuine Arminian thought, distinguishing it from Calvinism on the one side and its supposed bad reputation on the other. This historical approach allows the classical authors to speak for themselves through copious quoting, and accordingly initiates the reader into the Arminian tradition. A must read for anyone wanting to accurately articulate Arminian theology.
Another misrepresentation (but only subtle) found in this article was the phrase: "The Arminian emphasis on free will, or more properly free choice, is important in salvation." Classical Arminians have not emphasized free will as it pertains to salvation, rather, they have emphasized (first and foremost) God's free grace (prevenient grace) given to all sinners, and God's loving intention to provide salvation to all sinners. See Myth #4 and #7 in Olson’s book for documentation of this. It is fair, reasonable, and scholarly, to allow Calvinist and Arminian scholars/theologians to explain their own theological position. Of course, this requires that we do the hard work of reading from their primary writings. Because of these two misrepresentations, I have changed the section on Arminianism. I have copied a section from Arminianism in Wikipedia (with minor editing) that better represents Arminian beliefs. Thanks ClassArm ( talk) 20:26, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
That section closely echoes material written by the same editor in collective salvation, which is up for deletion for being massively POV against liberation theology, social justice, etc. (see Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Christianity#Problem article and the relevant AfD discussion). While I recognize that collective salvation is part of modern Christian conversation, I think the claims in the section here are too broadly generalized to be accurate representations of views of salvation in liberal Christian thought. Notice the snide comment in the opening sentence that emerging and progressive churches "claim" to be part of Christianity. I'd delete the entire section, but I'd like to see what others think is salvageable. Thanks, Aristophanes68 (talk) 00:38, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
99.246.101.166 just re-added a lenghty section on salvation in Islam that's devoid of any secondary sources, with an edit summary of: "You may choose to walk into the nearest mosque and verify this yourself. You must keep in mind that not everyone speaks english, and not evey information exists in all languages." First of all, the English Wikipedia does allow non-English sources if no English sources are available, per WP:NONENG. Secondly, I doubt that there are no English sources on salvation in Islam; Google Books provides lots of results; unfortunately they don't necessarily agree with what we say. For example, this one argues that "salvation" isn't that important a concept in Islam at all, with a single occurrence in the Qu'ran (which 99's lengthy text conveniently omits). Thirdly, "go ask in a mosque" does not satisfy Wikipedia's policy of verifiability. Huon ( talk) 02:52, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately I come back again today after more than a year, and find the section about Islam yet again butchered, misleading, and in its critical parts completely wrong. I gave you truth, I explained to you, and I were patient, but you rather wallow in your own ignorance. Let the scholar of the subject write about the subject, the physicist about physics, the mathematician about mathematics, the Christian about Christianity, the Muslim about Islam. Is Integrity much to ask? Gone are the days when a man walked his words. Or is it perhaps distrust? Truly a thief bars his doors. But perchance it is not more, for we will reap what we saw. I promised myself a time ago to engage not again in this game, for not it but its players. You are left to yourselves and your hands' produce. -- 99.246.173.176 ( talk) 01:52, 22 August 2012 (UTC) (Note that I am "99.246.101.166", and this is not a response to user "Huon"'s comment)
The article contained an image of the sons of Core. On the one hand, Core (or Korah) and his sons are not mentioned at all in the article text, and the image caption did not explain their relevance. On the other hand, I doubt whether not being killed by God can be called "salvation". Thus I have removed the image. Huon ( talk) 19:46, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Should not encyclopædiæ be secular? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.189.165.11 ( talk) 13:24, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
82.15.230.206 removed two sources from the lead as "non-accepted". They were:
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help)I couldn't find out much about the first except a blog comment according to which it is self-published and the authors have no formal theological education. That would probably indeed make it a less than optimal source, though the content currently sourced to Wallace and Rusk was apparently uncontroversial; 82.15.230.206 left it in the article.
Ernest Valea, on the other hand, apparently is a well-known and well-cited "theologian and comparative religion scholar", as a quick Google Scholar search showed. While his personal website is, of course, self-published, he is an expert writing on the area of his expertise, and there is no reason why such a source should not be acceptable.
Furthermore, while I understand 82.15's desire to turn the list in the lead into running text, I don't think his edit, which introduced several paragraphs of unsourced content which partly contradicted sourced content, was actually an improvement. For these reasons I have reverted him. Huon ( talk) 22:54, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
The 1st problem with this topic is to define "Judaism." Does the term exclude the Tanach? IMHO, yes. However, also IMHO, one can discuss SALVATION IN THE MISHNAH. Here for starters is a quote from Kurt Michaelson from the internet:
I just reverted some of EnochBethany's recent changes to the article. In particular:
Huon ( talk) 16:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
"Analogous concepts within other religions, such as nirvana and moksha, are not in fact equivalents to the concept of salvation, not least because these latter concepts are not reliant upon divine agency." This article is misinformed. Likewise, there is a severe and disparate argument on soteriology, which this article claims is directly related to salvation. The text regarding Buddhism on the soteriology article is far from accurate either. If we are going to accept that salvation necessitates a reliance upon a divine agency (a restriction that I would dispute) Buddhism still asserts salvation in Pure Land Buddhism which uses a direct reliance upon a divine agency - Amitābha Buddha. The history of pure land salvation within Buddhism is antique, and may be reliably traced back to India.
Therefore 'salvation' as a term is not exclusive to abrahamic religion, even within the constraint of being reliant upon divine agency.
The dictionary gives two definitions of salvation - neither of which assert the constraint of reliance upon divine agency.
One could argue that sin itself implies divine law, and that the Karma of the Dharma religions has no eye (and therefore one cannot sin in a Dharma religion), but let's use WP as a source: "A sin is an act that violates a known moral rule in a religion". ( 20040302 ( talk) 11:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC))
Paul Williams, Mahayana Buddhism, Routledge 1989 ISBN 0-415-02537-0
p251: The most widespread of cults devoted to Buddhas is that of Amitabha or Amitayus. In contemporary Japanese Buddhism it accounts for more practitioners than any other Buddhist tradition, and in these forms in practice it most nearly approaches a devotional monotheism.
ibid, p259: Through the power of Amitabha even the worst sinner [...] can attain to the Pure Land (Amitabha's pure land)
ibid, p259: Once one abandons recourse to one's own resources all activities can be seen as Other Power, the salvific activity of Amitabha working through us. But reciting his name in accordance with the sutra exemplifies Amitabha's power to save most fully.
( 20040302 ( talk) 09:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
The current article needs WP:RS to back up it's assertion. As I pointed out, there is no basis for the existing argument. Likewise, the article starts with In theology - well, WP isn't solely concerned with theology. It certainly isn't solely concerned with Abrahamic theology. ( 20040302 ( talk) 09:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
The existing introduction (the one favoured by User:Huon) as well as being unrepresentative of a worldwide view of the subject does not have appropriate references. This was noted some time ago and subsequently ignored by this user. Thanks to User:20040302 for appending tags to these. The academic study of soteriology states that salvation is a foundational concept present in the majority of the worlds great religions. According to the Oxford English Dictionary that which is saved is the soul (from sin and its consequences) and it does not necessarily imply divine agency. Soteriology advocates that salvation refers to the end-point or goal of religious practise and is synonymous with the liberation experienced by the saint. From the point of view of metaphysics it refers to the subjective experience of timelessness (eternity) that arises when the psyche has become free from the conditions (called samskaras or sankharas in Indian religion) which limit it in ordinary consciousness. 81.106.127.14 ( talk) 22:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
I have restored the lede back to a version previous to major edits by 81.106.127.14. The diff can be seen here. I welcome discussion on this issue and note that the current version has serious issues which need addressing. The version created by User:81.106.. was too reliant on a Christian-ese concept of sin, and salvation from such sin, that it misses the point that salvation in action is primarily a salvation from the imminent death of the body. Only in its secondary meaning is salvation a salvation from sin. - Stevertigo ( t | c) 01:42, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
That's indeed from Baker's Bible study paper, Truth for Today. For all I can tell, it was self-published by Baker, and I don't think he is an "established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications", the criterion given in WP:SPS for a self-published source to be considered reliable. And while that may not be relevant to his beliefs on salvation and resurrection, Baker seems to have been one of the main adherents of hyperdispensationalism, which is described as a "niche doctrine". That does not inspire much confidence. If this is a central topic of discussion in theology, surely there are papers published in peer-reviewed scholarly journals? Those would be much better sources. Huon ( talk) 02:32, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
The current lede states:
This intro raises a few questions:
Regards, - Stevertigo ( t | c) 05:52, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
81.106.127.14 has changed the lead in an attempt to clarify the distinctions between Protestant and Catholic doctrines of salvation. However, before his edits that paragraph contrasted the Christian views to the Islamic views, and the Islamic position has now been ascribed to Catholic and Orthodox Christianity. I doubt that's correct. And while there are subtle differences between the different branches of Christianity, I don't think they're important enough for the lead of this article which should focus on salvation in general, not just salvation in Christianity. Huon ( talk) 17:44, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
The section on Christianity says this: "Redemption is synonymous with salvation to Christians." This is actually a false (misrepresentative) statement, since the Roman Catholic Church (the largest single Christian denomination on Earth) makes a distinction between redemption and salvation. This is one of the defining characteristics of RC versus Protestant theology. The statement should be amended to say that the two are synonymous to "many" Christians, and the alternate view should be explained and given. I am not sure what sources would be good for citation, but it wasn't too hard for me to find Catholic sources as well as other Christian sources. It's also curious that, as the previous section indicates, the lead on the article had been changed to reflect differences between Protestant and Catholic views but the Christianity section omits the Catholic view. 206.169.175.130 ( talk) 00:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
A fair number of Muslims think that non-Muslims won't necessarily go to Hell. For example; http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/13564/can-mother-teresa-a-non-muslim-go-to-heaven/ and http://www.quora.com/Islam/According-to-Islam-will-non-Muslims-ever-go-to-heaven and there are other people who say it also but I've just given 2 examples. A number of Muslims say that only God knows who will go to Heaven and who won't. Something's going to have to be done. 86.40.141.29 ( talk) 17:54, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
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The section on taoism is barely a stub and has been written poorly. Someone with the speciality should improve it. FropFrop ( talk) 10:02, 13 October 2023 (UTC)