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The article is protected now. Please discuss your issues at this page and try to reach a concensus. -- Szvest 12:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The talkpage is growing in langth. It has begun to become unweildy and takes even noticable time to load on a T1 connection so it must be unbearable on a dialup modem. I think it is time to archive it as most of the discussion has been not progressed in many months. I am not an expert on how to do this. If someone could do it or explain to me how to archive the talk page, I would gladly do so. ZaydHammoudeh 00:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The term Jihadist Salafi is an oxymoron. Those who adhere to the way of the Salaf are not found to be individuals of extremist Jihadist views. What we have here now are groups who have chosen to coin the term "Salafi" because it has become increasingly popular to accept the Salafi method of understanding Islam. The same thing occurred in earlier generations from people adding the phrase Ahl Sunnah to their cause in hopes of gaining support for their movements. There is an important point to note and that is a name means nothing. We are more concerned with the outer appearance which actually proves what and who you are. Would you find a man cutting his head with a blade and then claiming he is Sunni? Of course not. And even if such a person claimed he was Sunni we would know it to be false because Sunnis simply do not do that.
For a long time, the article had three categories: Salafis who were politically quietist, Salafis who believed in jihad against non-Muslims only, and Salafis who followed Qutb in wanting to bring down various Middle Eastern regimes. It was clearly stated that many Salafis did not accept Qutbis/Islamists as fellow Salafis. Many hit-and-run editors have tried to remove all references to the third category. At some point someone succeeded and the removal is now frozen by the article protection.
I understand WHY Salafis who don't share the Islamist views would want to emphatically deny all links to them, but I don't think it's right to do so by censoring any mention of the connections. It's sufficient to say that many Salafis are horrified by what they see as a misuse of their beliefs. Zora 03:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
This is from the Page of Sayyid Qutb the Man who was a Member of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and the True founder of Modern Day Jihadi Groups like Hizbul-Tahrir and Al-Qaeda.
"And it is necessary for Islaam to judge, since it is a unique, constructive and positivist aqidah which has been moulded and shaped from Christianity and Communism together, [with a] blending in the most perfect of ways and which comprises all of their (i.e Christianity and Communism's) objectives and adds in addition to them harmony, balance and justice."(Pages 61. 13th edition and print of Sayyid Qutb's "Ma'rakat ul-Islam war-Ra'samaaliyyah", published in 1993CE (1414H).)
This new information regarding the madhab really has no citations. For Cunado to insist on including it seems very POV because it really has very little to do with the article and continues factual errors and misunderstandings. I think if we plan to include it in the article, we should discuss it first. No one can insist some new part they included stays and if anyone wants to remove, then they must use the talk page. It really is the other way around. If you want to include something new, then you use the talk page not vice versa. I really think the first paragraph should be removed pending discussion. ZaydHammoudeh 18:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Guys, the article is getting instable because of the revert war. I'll be obliged to protect the article if no serious discussion is on the air. I suggest you reach a concensus re the following:
I believe if answers re the above are answered basing on sources and references than the article would stabilize again. Otherwise, i'll be forced to protect the article. * "Origins of Salafism" should stay. Szvest 13:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®
I've just protected the article as i stated on November 7th. Please organize a list of the issues to be discussed in order to reach a concensus to sort this out for once. -- Szvest 18:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®
Another thing. I searched through links from "What links here" to see in what context people link to this article. About half are clearly about the modern contemporary movement. For examples see Patrick Cockburn, Hijab, Islam in Bahrain, Qur'anic literalism, Chechen people. The other half are mostly ambiguous with nothing in the context indicating which it refers to. I have a suggestion, let's delete the unreferenced sections and add a section on "Historical Salafism" and another on "Modern Salafism" (starting in the mid-1800s). I think if both parts are written accurately it will help. Cuñado - Talk 17:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I am not all that well-versed in specific Salafi beliefs, but i will make some comments that i think will be useful for anyone that's really trying to work on a quality article.
Bassemkhalifa 11:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Omg, this is one of the worst articles I've read on this site, ok I've done alot of changes and I'm here to till you what parts I edited and what parts I added
first, I edited this part "and encouraging struggle ( jihad) of varying degrees, such as juhadul nafs (struggling to overcome unwanted desires within one's self) and jihadul ilm (the struggle to obtain or increase oneself and others in knowledge)"...do you know any Islamic madh'hab that doesn't encourage and support that, or is this just to draw attention to the word "Jihad". and "alafis place great emphasis on prayer and to ritual practices in many activities in life -- the right hand should always be used when eating, water is to be drunk with pauses between every few swallows and beginning things with the saying of Bismillah (in the name of Allah) -- so as to follow the example of Muhammad and his companions and make religion, patience and prayer activities in their everyday life."....also what Islamic Madh'had doesn't put greta emphasis on all of these things?..c'mmon man!!
second, "alafism differs from the earlier contemporary Islamic revival movements of Islamism from the early 1900s to the early 1980s, in that (at least many) Salafis reject not only Western ideologies such as socialism and capitalism, but also common Western concepts like political parties and governmental revolution. Muslims should not engage in Western activities like politics, "even by giving them an Islamic slant." [1] Instead, Muslims should stick to Islamic activities, particularly dawah and learning. Salafis promote sharia rather than an Islamic political program or state."...this is absolutely false, nothing is true in that, who said Salafis prohibit politics?...matter fact we encourage enaging in politics as they believe Islam is involved in all parts of the muslim's life spiritually, socially, financially as well as plitically.
^^^Man you're wrong, Ibnul Qayyim who is one of the most respectable salafi schlars has a book called Islamic Politics, Ibn Taymiya spoke greatly about politics, you just don"t understand the concept of politics in islam, you think politics is only political parties and stuff, and that's wrong, please nobody re-edit this again
...Now I also added this "However non of the medh'habs are to be followed blindly as Salafis oppose following any of the four madh'habs blindly or exclusively but varying and comparing opinions with scripts of the Quran and authentic hadieth(as all of their narrations must be linked back to Muhammad and the first three generations of Muslims) and in some rare cases they choose opinions that totally differ with the four madhhabs."....I really felt the need to clarify the salafi view on the four schools of fiqh or the four madh'habs.
I just removed a very glaring factual/historical error, i'm probably not the only one who picked up on it. Under history of Salafism, it referenced a number of Egyptian scholars in the 19th century, long after the Salafi movement had begun in Saudi. I was a bit confused and checked the articles on individuals such as Muhammad Abduh and while they were certainly reformers, they did not say anything about Salafism or returning to early religious practices. Then I checked the reference, a PDF file from a paper written by a Dr. Ali Khan about Islamic revival. The reference was to a section called the Second Period of Ijtihad, which I read in it's entirety and found absolutely no mention of Egyptian scholars or Salafis. I looked through the rest of the paper and still found nothing about Salafism or the Egyptian scholars in question. I removed that entire section, as it was wholly inaccurate to the subject matter. This article is going to need some major work to bring it up to par with other religion articles. MezzoMezzo 16:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
That's some very good information actually, I like what you've done with the article. You appear to have backed up both positions well enough and your addition of more references was very helpful. The style (i.e. Wiki-links, formatting, etc.) could use some fine tuning but as far as the information goes for the time being you have my support for this new version. MezzoMezzo 21:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to take so long to reply Mezzo. I think I have a job for the crack arab speakers at the A Team. Take a look at http://ikhwanonline.net/Article.asp?ArtID=120&SecID=0
the "who are we" (min nahnu) section from ikhwan.net. The first paragraph appears to say that MB see themselves as being salafi da3a (I think) i.e. see themselves as salafi.
I haven't checked yet but I strongly suspect salafi publications and other groups will take exception with the idea of Akhwan Muslimeen are salafi.
So perhaps just as the article has "Salafis are divided on the question of adherence to the four recognized schools of legal interpretation (madh'habs)." followed by bullet points for the three interpretations
and "The various Salafi groups tend to differ not so much in matters of Islamic practice, such as prescriptions for prayer (salat) or Islamic dress (hijab) as in their attitude towards the state." ... followed by three bullet points,
I suggest something like: "Salafi are not all in agreement as to who is a true salafi.... followed by maybe two bullet points -- Leroy65X 23:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
That looks fine to me for now. Man, you're actually teaching me this stuff, I had no idea that some people considered Deobandis to be Salafi. MezzoMezzo 22:01, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I did some rewriting in Salafi#History of Salafism. See what you think. -- Leroy65X 19:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
"Salafism insists on the inerrancy of Muslim scripture and what might be called a strict constructionist brand of sharia or religious law"
Why should this be added? All Muslim Sunnis without exception believe in the inerrancy of the Quran and that it's word-for-word from Allah. This belief isn't restricted to salafis, so I think we should add that information. MB
Salam. as I was reading the Sahih Bukhari, I came across this hadith: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri R.A.: The Prophet S.A.W. said, "A time will come when groups of people will go for Jihad and it will be asked, 'Is there anyone amongst you who enjoyed the company of the Prophet S.A.W.?' The answer will be, 'Yes.' Then they will be given victory (by Allah). Then a time will come when it will be asked . 'Is there anyone amongst you who enjoyed the company of the companions of the Prophet S.A.W.?' It will be said, 'Yes,' and they will be given victory (by Allah). Then a time will come when it will be said. 'Is there anyone amongst you who has enjoyed the company of the companions of the companions of the Prophet S.A.W.?' It will be said, 'Yes,' and they will be given victory (by Allah)."[4:146-O.B]; The Book of Jihad, hadith number 1252. Can we use this hadith to indicate the source of Salafism? Pejuang bahasa 00:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Assalam-o-alikum,
I'm a bit shocked to find out that Jaish-e-Mohammed and Sipah-e-Sahaba are placed under salafi political affiliation. I do not have the books but as far as my knowledge goes and it goes truly deep as I interviewed both organisation's members couple of years back and according to what I know, they follow the Deobandi Madhab and Deobandism is not Salafism. I'll try to get some sources but I left my job in the newspaper around 1997-8 and it wasn't a very big newspaper. I'm also a bit surprised by the facts on this article. Please reply.
Thanks
Rizshe 19:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
Thank you for your reply and you just reminded me of my days when I submit an article and the editor had to say something interesting :) lol.
Anyways referring back to the topic, I really doubt that they're being accused of such. Most of the schools belonging to deobandi's deny having any relations to Salafis.
Here is an answer about Salafi's on UK Darul-Iftah's website.
http://www.daruliftaa.com/question.asp?txt_QuestionID=q-21102374
Hope that helps and I'll certainly try to find my sources if I can, though finding some people in Karachi especially if you're out of the country for about 10 years is like finding a needle in haystack.
Rizshe
20:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Recently, User:Arawiki has continuously undertaken a number of disruptive edits while refusing to respond to requests to respect the consensus version of the article. These issues include:
Initially this user's edits (and those of anonymous IP addresses making the same exact edits, suggesting the possibility of a Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry violation) appeared to be in violation of the official Wikipedia:Vandalism policy. Now I am not sure if these edits are indeed in good faith or simply disruptive; the matter is not clear. What is clear, however, is that this edit is a clear violation of both the official Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Civility policies. Anyone is welcome to contribute to Wikipedia as long as they can do so in a professional, helpful, and mature manner. Intentionally insertion factual inaccuracies, violation the official Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy, and launching of insults is neither helpful nor conducive to a good editing environment. MezzoMezzo 14:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Before going on, I would like to defend myself against the personal attacks once again aimed against me and my edits.
Saudi Arabia is the only openly Salafi nation in the world, and not only has the country done much for the Salafi da'wah both financially and otherwise, but Rabee Al-Madkhali has as well. The information in his article speaks for itself. Your claim is entirely false and invalid.
He studied under Omar Abdel Rahman among other prominent terrorists and/or supporters of terrorism, in addition to being a strong influence on Osama bin Laden, the biggest terrorist and khariji alive today. Again, the article on Abdullah Azzam speaks for itself and you are again entirely incorrect in this matter.
With the exception of the two shaikhs from Yemen - which is an issue that you do have a point in since they don't have articles yet - everything I have done has been properly sourced. As I said before, Shaikh Rabee's article speaks for itself; Azzam and Qutb's articles do as well and it is clear from that that they are both khariji/ikhwani in ideology and there is nary a mention of Salafism in their articles. The fact that you brought up sources actually refutes what you say.
As for the rest of your comments, they are pure trolling; you copied and pasted my comments as Itaqallah had mentioned. Please review
WP:Troll and the above policies that I have mentioned, as your comments are disruptive to this page.
As for Itaqallah's suggestion, I believe this is very helpful and as always I am thankful to have your input. I am confident that the original consensus version of this article will be found to be quite sound.
MezzoMezzo
20:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
There are some vandals persistently deleting the names of scholars on this article, they do not make them selves known rather they anonymously engaged in this illegal activity. They should fear Allah and refrain from these actions, may Allah guide them. NS73 Ns73 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ns73 ( talk • contribs) 13:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
It appears that the disruption has not ceased though any attempt to explain it has. As has been said before, the insertion of Sayyid Qutb and Abdullah Azzam into this article is factually incorrect; both are widely considered to be ikhwaani (Muslim Brotherhood) and not salafi, and Azzam himself even said he follows the ikhwaani methodology and not the salafi methodology. In addition to this, the reference for his insertion is a quote from Time Magazine calling him a reviver of jihad; that would be relevant to the jihad article but it doesn't explain his insertion here especially considering that in his own words he was not salafi. As far as Qutb, there is already an article about his ideology ( Qutbism); it does not make sense to put him in an article for an entirely different ideology especially considering that the only reference is an interview not accesible to readers of English Wikipedia. In addition, the consistent removal of Rabee al-Madkhali and Muqbil al-Wadiee has not been explained despite their articles demonstrating their importance to the modern salafi movement; other scholars suck as Saalih Fawzan and Badi-uddeen as-Sindi among others have continued despite it being known that material on notability is currently being collected to create their articles soon. As far as the insertion of a section on Saudi, it teeters on the edge of the official Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not policy; why not include modern salafi attitudes toward Ethiopia, or Malaysia, or every other Muslim country? It's a trivia section and is of no use. As far as the links section, that issue has already been resolved amicably as may be seen below. This behavior should cease for the time being at the very least and ideally should be defended in some way based on official site policy, and not POV. MezzoMezzo 19:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Arawiki, you're flat out wrong about what khariji means and considering that you actually know Arabic, I have a feeling you're aware of that. As I explained before, a khariji is a member of the
Khawarij sect; it DOES NOT mean dog of the hellfire. The Arabic word for dog is kalb and fire is nar, neither of which are linguistically related to that word. As for the civility policy, please don't misuse policies as I didn't even direct the word at you to begin with.
Now, as for the issues at hand. As I have told you a million times before, the references for the contributions to salafiyyah from Muqbil and Rabee are already on their articles; it is well known and already provided there, and you consistently trolling the talk page pretending it isn't won't fool anybody. As for the others, I already told you information on them is being compiled. You are aware of this now and you need to stop, I have told you multiple times.
As for Qutb, you provided absolutely no academic reference whatsoever; you gave an interview, which isn't in English, and yes, that does bring up issues with
Wikipedia:Verifiability and related guidelines. As for Azzam, it is well know that he said, very clearly that he follows the ikhwaani manhaj. As has been pointed out by multiple users, people who consider the Muslim Brotherhood salafi outnumber those who do not. Furthermore, nobody here claimed that Saudi Arabia has a monopoly on salafiyyah so your point there is moot; you haven't provided any sort of reference why the section should remain, and your own personal *opinion* that some people think Saudi has a monopoly on it isn't actually proof of anything. Speaking of the separate sections in "jihadist salafis" and "saudi salafis", there aren't any references for those sections at all, seeing as how you seem to take referencing seriously.
You have also failed to explain your disruptions on the external links section, which as can be seen below has already been agreed upon and you provided no comment. Please don't claim consensus when you clearly do not have it, as we know from the official
Wikipedia:Consensus policy that
consensus can change. This version of the article has been standing for a while, and on top of this your edits have been reverted by multiple users; you clearly have no consensus.
MezzoMezzo
15:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
What's wrong with the text:
Maybe it should be qualified ("for example many salafi believe ...") but it certainly seems relatvent to the issue. -- BoogaLouie 15:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The "Distinctive belief and practice" section should discuss matters of creed, and not eating with your hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.187.178.106 ( talk) 18:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I think there are amazing similarities between the goals of Salafin and those of Dor Daim, each in their respective religions of course. Each are for a return to an original pure form of their religion, each are against innovations, each emphasize monotheism and strongely reject idolatry and/or praying/beseeching past (dead) leaders, and both are particular in pronunciation and transliterations. Those who follow what they call " Messianic Judaism" appear to be striving for the same within the context of Christianity... and all this within the same century. I just find this very interesting and wonder what it implies.... certainly there hasn't been such desire to return to pure religion and to so shed what are perceived as false teachings and practices like this in the past... irrespective of which religion is correct. There seems to be a renewal in the hearts of mankind to pursue unadulterated truth... should these similarities be commented upon somehow? I hope (and believe) that eventually all those who sincerely desire truth, of each religion, will eventually come to agreement. Omedyashar 20:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The external links in this article seem biased and rather irrelevant as they are not sources and do not add to the article. Please compare with articles about other religious groups - for example the article about sunnies themselves. The links should be evaluated and their relevance justified - or they should be deleted. -- Sir48 20:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
IMHO the WP:EL is quite adequate for judging the inclusion of these links. I have visited them, and my recommendation is to include the following four only:
This means exclusion of the following:
Looking forward to comments and possible suggestions for other informative sites. -- Sir48 21:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Some of the references (most?) are crap too. Don't know anything about the subject, but they need to be culled and replaced. – Mike. lifeguard | @en.wb 00:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Rahim, wa As-Salatu wa As-Salamu ala Sayidina Muhammad, sayed al awaleen wal akhereen. In my opinion, from reading several articles such as on Islamonline.net and even this one, that it is apparent that the Islamic revival movement by Muhammad Ibn Abdel-Wahab (or el-Wahaabiya) and the Islamic revival movement by Muhammad Abdo (or el-Salafiya) are different in some aspects and hence should not be lumped together in one article. It is important however not to take the ways of Jahiliya in fighting as if one tribe against the other and acknowledging that under Islam there is an "Umbrella" of allowed diversity in jurisprudence. Hence, remember that we are Muslims and do not pretend to be scholars if you aren't. Remember that while the Tatar where about to invade Baghdad and bring down the Islamic empire, the people forgot about defending the city and were concerned with arguing whether it is Halal or Haram to eat the meat of a Horse !!! In conclusion, please separate these into two articles, so that every school of jurisprudence could present their ideas. Ittaku Allaha Ikhwanee, wa As-Salamu Alaykum wa Rahmatu Allah. -- 132.178.206.121 06:02, 28 October 2007 (UTC) Akhukum fee Al Islam
It is suggested that they must be merged bcoz both are One and there should not be two article with ifferent Name glorifying a Movement which has history of Violence.Shabiha 15:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Salafism (Arabic: سلفي "predecessors" or "early generations"), is a generic term, depicting a Sunni Islamic school of thought that takes the pious ancestors (Salaf) of the patristic period of early Islam as exemplary models.
Salafism is often used interchangeably with "Wahhabism". Adherents usually reject this term because it is considered derogatory and because none of the adherents of Salafism in the past ever referred to themselves as such. Typically, they used terms like "Muwahidoon," "Ahle Hadith," or "Ahl at-Tawheed."
Wahhabism (Arabic: Al-Wahhābīyya الوهابية, Wahabism) is a branch of Sunni Islam practised by those who follow the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab, after whom the movement is named.
The term "Wahhabi" (Wahhābīya) is considered derogatory and rarely used by the people it is used to describe, who preferred to be called "unitarians".
The hadiths and quotes of Islamic Personalities have been added to influence as they were made regarding Modern day salafi. This Saudi Doctrine has Spread in recent Years and they gave Salaf name in Saudi and Europe where as Ahle Hadiths is their name in Asia. Sunni Islamic Scholars have recognized them on the basis of their Views which are nothing but teachings of Ibn a Wahab and Ibn Taimiah.
Actually most of the current version has been discussed, just before you decided to come along and inject your own personal POV (along with some hefty deletions). If you take issue with something, then discuss it first, but don't just delete anything you personally disagree with; WP:OWN is quite relevant here. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 07:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
To claim that wahabism and salafism are one and the same is clearly mistaken. In this article itself is a quote from the book Al-Ansab citing the term salafi centuries before the birth of Muhammad ibn Abdul al-Wahhab. While establishing independent beginnings for each of the two might not be entirely conclusive, it does go a long way towards distinguishing between the two. Supertouch ( talk) 21:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I am taking a class on Middle East History at Wayne State University. We discussed Salafism and Wahabism today. From what was stated by my teacher who is a Muslim, and by at least two Musim students in class the Selafi and the Wahabi are different groups. They both were initially inspired by the Hanbali School of Sunni Islam, but they have different ideologies, although they have similar positions on some issues. Johnpacklambert ( talk) 01:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I am discussing first this Content Salafis view the first three generations of Muslims, who are Muhammad's companions, and the two succeeding generations after them, the Tabi‘in and the Taba‘ at-Tabi‘in, as examples of how Islam should be practiced. This principle is derived from the following hadith by Muhammad:
“ The people of my generation are the best, then those who follow them, and then whose who follow the latter (i.e. the first three generations of Muslims).[4] ”
This Hadith has no relevancy at all in this article as they are not among the said generations.
The principal tenet of Salafism is that Islam was perfect and complete during the days of Muhammad and his companions, but that undesirable innovations have been added over the later centuries due to materialist and cultural influences. Salafism seeks to revive a practice of Islam that more closely resembles the religion during the time of Muhammad.[5]
Blatant POV regarding Undesirable Innovations
Salafism has also been described as a simplified version of Islam, in which adherents follow a few commands and practices.[6]
All Claims need to be Supported by Neutral sources. Shabiha ( t 14:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Sahiba's edits are in gross contravention to Wikipedia's long established rule of Neutrality. Not only are his/her edits devoid of neutral editing, they also lack sheer clarity as exemplified by his/her prior contributions. Scythian1 ( talk) 23:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I wonder if the term muslim diaspora in 'It is increasingly important to diasporic Muslims in Europe, Canada, and the United States.' (contemporary salafism) is npov. As i get it a diaspora is a forced dispersion, so the actual current 'muslim diaspora' are the people from ,irak ,somalia, palestine, afghanistan, checnya, and to a greater or lesser extend many others (sudan eg.) that while bearing a muslim identity fled their grounds or were victimised or related to muslim that had to flee. As a result there are millions of muslim people also in arab nations that have a (salafist) grudge. Strangely this npov statement forfills 2 needs, the 'islam' need to unite and group (but hypocritically so) and the wish not to notion the western (imperialist) diasporic and genocidal effects (exactly as hypocritical). 77.251.34.32 ( talk) 11:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
You removed the fair Just reasonable valid relevant neutral sourced Content from this Article .This is Total Hypocrisy People day and night are Involved in adding Criticism to Others Page but removed same from where they dont like. You are starting edit warring here. You always asks about earlier discussion Did You discussed that?No. NOW eschew that. Shabiha ( t) 14:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
The dates given for Muhammad bin 'Ali al Shawkani (1750 C.E. - present) (in the section Notable modern Salafi scholars > Yemen) cannot possibly be right. Somebody who knows the dates should correct this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CFynn ( talk • contribs) 07:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
The article does not make it clear that the essential distinction between the orthodox Sunni majority and the (so-called) Salafi movement is in the matter of `Aqidah (Creed). The traditional Sunni Muslims believe that Allah is is absolutely Incomparable and absolutely Transcendent (as in Free-of-Need--and NOT of altitude). The sayings of the Sunni scholars, including the genuine Salaf (the people of the first 300 Hijriyy years), is that Allah is not a corporeal entity, and that Allah exists without being in one or in all locations. Among the most famous treatises on the Sunni Creed, the `Aqidah of At-Tahawiyy, the author said:
"Allah is supremely glorified from all boundaries, extremities, sides, organs, and small body parts or devices (adawaat). None of the six directions [above, below, right left, in front, or behind] contain Allah as is the case with all the creations."
This statement alone is adequate to refute the tashbih (the blasphemous belief in God-resemblance) of the so-called "Salfis". Among the beliefs of the so-called Salafis is that Allah is "sitting in person" (as Uthaimeen claims) above the creation and has a giant smiling face, large eyes, a pair of outstretched hands, a tibia, two enormous feet, and spends part of the day inside the creations. As any native speaker of English can understand that idiomatic and figurative usage abounds in the English language, and that we don't take every phrase at "face value," one should be able to understand that Qur'anic Arabic also uses figurative language. Various Arabic terms in the Qur'an may have a dozen or more different meanings in the Arabic language, and only a person who is out of touch with the heritage of Islamic scholarship would insist that Allah, Who is the Creator of space and all that exists within space, is a spatial entity with corporeal characteristics. The so-called "Salafis" are only Sunni in name, but not in Creed or methodology. That is a simple fact of history.
The belief that Allah is a spatial being with "real actual" organs and appendages is a doctrine that goes back to some of the pseudo-Hanbalis, who misunderstood and distorted the non-literal verses (muhkam) of the Qur'an (as well as, Hadith of the Prophet). As a result of the quasi-salafis' erroneous methodology, they rendered various verses and Hadiths in opposition to each other, and incongruous with basic common sense. In summary the Eternal Creator was and place/space/direction were not. After Allah created place/space/direction, Allah did not transform and begin to exist in place, space, or direction. This is the belief of the Muslims and can be found in hundreds of classical books on the Islamic `Aqidah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noor House ( talk • contribs) 03:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
The article should say something about the connection between Wahhabism and Salafism. That idea, or the dispute over it, is all over the talk page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Salafi#Are_Wahabism_and_Salafism_one.3F
but nowhere in the article.
We could start with this from the Wahhabism article
-- BoogaLouie ( talk) 17:37, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
This new Salafi article is what we need to base the information around. It is non-bias and very informative. It dose not have irrelevant headings like “distinctive beliefs and practices” since there is nothing distinctive about it. For example is the act of not celebrating the prophet’s birthday. This should not be in the article since the act of not doing something is not a reason to be distinct.
Another heading that should not be in the article is “the history of Salafism”. This is foolish. What history are we talking about here? It is clear that the Salafis have no distinctive beginning. They are the Sunni sect. And if Salafism dose have a beginning after the rise of Islam who founded it. Is it abu Bakr the first caliph or Omar the second caliph. Or was it Imam abu Hanifa, or Imam Malik, or Imam Hanbal. Could it be Imam Muhammad al-Bukhari. Ibn Taymiyyah, bin Baz. We can go on and on.
The old article was very confusing, unorganized, very biased and offensive. The new one is simple and clear to understand. It can be more wikified but besides that it is better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.93.46.149 ( talk) 18:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
The most controversial of my recent changes was to clarify that these are Sunni sources that the Salafi movement is using, not necessarily sources agreed upon by the entire Ummah. I also clarified that when a scholar was quoted, Salafis were stating this to prove their point, not simply have the scholar quoted in the article as if this is the authoritative interpretation of what the scholar meant. -- Enzuru 23:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:LEAD, "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies that may exist." We should note Salafism's relation with other mainstream Muslim groups, as well as notable criticism by Western establishments. What is the best way to go about this? -- Enzuru 05:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
The article is protected now. Please discuss your issues at this page and try to reach a concensus. -- Szvest 12:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The talkpage is growing in langth. It has begun to become unweildy and takes even noticable time to load on a T1 connection so it must be unbearable on a dialup modem. I think it is time to archive it as most of the discussion has been not progressed in many months. I am not an expert on how to do this. If someone could do it or explain to me how to archive the talk page, I would gladly do so. ZaydHammoudeh 00:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The term Jihadist Salafi is an oxymoron. Those who adhere to the way of the Salaf are not found to be individuals of extremist Jihadist views. What we have here now are groups who have chosen to coin the term "Salafi" because it has become increasingly popular to accept the Salafi method of understanding Islam. The same thing occurred in earlier generations from people adding the phrase Ahl Sunnah to their cause in hopes of gaining support for their movements. There is an important point to note and that is a name means nothing. We are more concerned with the outer appearance which actually proves what and who you are. Would you find a man cutting his head with a blade and then claiming he is Sunni? Of course not. And even if such a person claimed he was Sunni we would know it to be false because Sunnis simply do not do that.
For a long time, the article had three categories: Salafis who were politically quietist, Salafis who believed in jihad against non-Muslims only, and Salafis who followed Qutb in wanting to bring down various Middle Eastern regimes. It was clearly stated that many Salafis did not accept Qutbis/Islamists as fellow Salafis. Many hit-and-run editors have tried to remove all references to the third category. At some point someone succeeded and the removal is now frozen by the article protection.
I understand WHY Salafis who don't share the Islamist views would want to emphatically deny all links to them, but I don't think it's right to do so by censoring any mention of the connections. It's sufficient to say that many Salafis are horrified by what they see as a misuse of their beliefs. Zora 03:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
This is from the Page of Sayyid Qutb the Man who was a Member of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and the True founder of Modern Day Jihadi Groups like Hizbul-Tahrir and Al-Qaeda.
"And it is necessary for Islaam to judge, since it is a unique, constructive and positivist aqidah which has been moulded and shaped from Christianity and Communism together, [with a] blending in the most perfect of ways and which comprises all of their (i.e Christianity and Communism's) objectives and adds in addition to them harmony, balance and justice."(Pages 61. 13th edition and print of Sayyid Qutb's "Ma'rakat ul-Islam war-Ra'samaaliyyah", published in 1993CE (1414H).)
This new information regarding the madhab really has no citations. For Cunado to insist on including it seems very POV because it really has very little to do with the article and continues factual errors and misunderstandings. I think if we plan to include it in the article, we should discuss it first. No one can insist some new part they included stays and if anyone wants to remove, then they must use the talk page. It really is the other way around. If you want to include something new, then you use the talk page not vice versa. I really think the first paragraph should be removed pending discussion. ZaydHammoudeh 18:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Guys, the article is getting instable because of the revert war. I'll be obliged to protect the article if no serious discussion is on the air. I suggest you reach a concensus re the following:
I believe if answers re the above are answered basing on sources and references than the article would stabilize again. Otherwise, i'll be forced to protect the article. * "Origins of Salafism" should stay. Szvest 13:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®
I've just protected the article as i stated on November 7th. Please organize a list of the issues to be discussed in order to reach a concensus to sort this out for once. -- Szvest 18:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®
Another thing. I searched through links from "What links here" to see in what context people link to this article. About half are clearly about the modern contemporary movement. For examples see Patrick Cockburn, Hijab, Islam in Bahrain, Qur'anic literalism, Chechen people. The other half are mostly ambiguous with nothing in the context indicating which it refers to. I have a suggestion, let's delete the unreferenced sections and add a section on "Historical Salafism" and another on "Modern Salafism" (starting in the mid-1800s). I think if both parts are written accurately it will help. Cuñado - Talk 17:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I am not all that well-versed in specific Salafi beliefs, but i will make some comments that i think will be useful for anyone that's really trying to work on a quality article.
Bassemkhalifa 11:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Omg, this is one of the worst articles I've read on this site, ok I've done alot of changes and I'm here to till you what parts I edited and what parts I added
first, I edited this part "and encouraging struggle ( jihad) of varying degrees, such as juhadul nafs (struggling to overcome unwanted desires within one's self) and jihadul ilm (the struggle to obtain or increase oneself and others in knowledge)"...do you know any Islamic madh'hab that doesn't encourage and support that, or is this just to draw attention to the word "Jihad". and "alafis place great emphasis on prayer and to ritual practices in many activities in life -- the right hand should always be used when eating, water is to be drunk with pauses between every few swallows and beginning things with the saying of Bismillah (in the name of Allah) -- so as to follow the example of Muhammad and his companions and make religion, patience and prayer activities in their everyday life."....also what Islamic Madh'had doesn't put greta emphasis on all of these things?..c'mmon man!!
second, "alafism differs from the earlier contemporary Islamic revival movements of Islamism from the early 1900s to the early 1980s, in that (at least many) Salafis reject not only Western ideologies such as socialism and capitalism, but also common Western concepts like political parties and governmental revolution. Muslims should not engage in Western activities like politics, "even by giving them an Islamic slant." [1] Instead, Muslims should stick to Islamic activities, particularly dawah and learning. Salafis promote sharia rather than an Islamic political program or state."...this is absolutely false, nothing is true in that, who said Salafis prohibit politics?...matter fact we encourage enaging in politics as they believe Islam is involved in all parts of the muslim's life spiritually, socially, financially as well as plitically.
^^^Man you're wrong, Ibnul Qayyim who is one of the most respectable salafi schlars has a book called Islamic Politics, Ibn Taymiya spoke greatly about politics, you just don"t understand the concept of politics in islam, you think politics is only political parties and stuff, and that's wrong, please nobody re-edit this again
...Now I also added this "However non of the medh'habs are to be followed blindly as Salafis oppose following any of the four madh'habs blindly or exclusively but varying and comparing opinions with scripts of the Quran and authentic hadieth(as all of their narrations must be linked back to Muhammad and the first three generations of Muslims) and in some rare cases they choose opinions that totally differ with the four madhhabs."....I really felt the need to clarify the salafi view on the four schools of fiqh or the four madh'habs.
I just removed a very glaring factual/historical error, i'm probably not the only one who picked up on it. Under history of Salafism, it referenced a number of Egyptian scholars in the 19th century, long after the Salafi movement had begun in Saudi. I was a bit confused and checked the articles on individuals such as Muhammad Abduh and while they were certainly reformers, they did not say anything about Salafism or returning to early religious practices. Then I checked the reference, a PDF file from a paper written by a Dr. Ali Khan about Islamic revival. The reference was to a section called the Second Period of Ijtihad, which I read in it's entirety and found absolutely no mention of Egyptian scholars or Salafis. I looked through the rest of the paper and still found nothing about Salafism or the Egyptian scholars in question. I removed that entire section, as it was wholly inaccurate to the subject matter. This article is going to need some major work to bring it up to par with other religion articles. MezzoMezzo 16:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
That's some very good information actually, I like what you've done with the article. You appear to have backed up both positions well enough and your addition of more references was very helpful. The style (i.e. Wiki-links, formatting, etc.) could use some fine tuning but as far as the information goes for the time being you have my support for this new version. MezzoMezzo 21:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to take so long to reply Mezzo. I think I have a job for the crack arab speakers at the A Team. Take a look at http://ikhwanonline.net/Article.asp?ArtID=120&SecID=0
the "who are we" (min nahnu) section from ikhwan.net. The first paragraph appears to say that MB see themselves as being salafi da3a (I think) i.e. see themselves as salafi.
I haven't checked yet but I strongly suspect salafi publications and other groups will take exception with the idea of Akhwan Muslimeen are salafi.
So perhaps just as the article has "Salafis are divided on the question of adherence to the four recognized schools of legal interpretation (madh'habs)." followed by bullet points for the three interpretations
and "The various Salafi groups tend to differ not so much in matters of Islamic practice, such as prescriptions for prayer (salat) or Islamic dress (hijab) as in their attitude towards the state." ... followed by three bullet points,
I suggest something like: "Salafi are not all in agreement as to who is a true salafi.... followed by maybe two bullet points -- Leroy65X 23:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
That looks fine to me for now. Man, you're actually teaching me this stuff, I had no idea that some people considered Deobandis to be Salafi. MezzoMezzo 22:01, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I did some rewriting in Salafi#History of Salafism. See what you think. -- Leroy65X 19:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
"Salafism insists on the inerrancy of Muslim scripture and what might be called a strict constructionist brand of sharia or religious law"
Why should this be added? All Muslim Sunnis without exception believe in the inerrancy of the Quran and that it's word-for-word from Allah. This belief isn't restricted to salafis, so I think we should add that information. MB
Salam. as I was reading the Sahih Bukhari, I came across this hadith: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri R.A.: The Prophet S.A.W. said, "A time will come when groups of people will go for Jihad and it will be asked, 'Is there anyone amongst you who enjoyed the company of the Prophet S.A.W.?' The answer will be, 'Yes.' Then they will be given victory (by Allah). Then a time will come when it will be asked . 'Is there anyone amongst you who enjoyed the company of the companions of the Prophet S.A.W.?' It will be said, 'Yes,' and they will be given victory (by Allah). Then a time will come when it will be said. 'Is there anyone amongst you who has enjoyed the company of the companions of the companions of the Prophet S.A.W.?' It will be said, 'Yes,' and they will be given victory (by Allah)."[4:146-O.B]; The Book of Jihad, hadith number 1252. Can we use this hadith to indicate the source of Salafism? Pejuang bahasa 00:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Assalam-o-alikum,
I'm a bit shocked to find out that Jaish-e-Mohammed and Sipah-e-Sahaba are placed under salafi political affiliation. I do not have the books but as far as my knowledge goes and it goes truly deep as I interviewed both organisation's members couple of years back and according to what I know, they follow the Deobandi Madhab and Deobandism is not Salafism. I'll try to get some sources but I left my job in the newspaper around 1997-8 and it wasn't a very big newspaper. I'm also a bit surprised by the facts on this article. Please reply.
Thanks
Rizshe 19:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
Thank you for your reply and you just reminded me of my days when I submit an article and the editor had to say something interesting :) lol.
Anyways referring back to the topic, I really doubt that they're being accused of such. Most of the schools belonging to deobandi's deny having any relations to Salafis.
Here is an answer about Salafi's on UK Darul-Iftah's website.
http://www.daruliftaa.com/question.asp?txt_QuestionID=q-21102374
Hope that helps and I'll certainly try to find my sources if I can, though finding some people in Karachi especially if you're out of the country for about 10 years is like finding a needle in haystack.
Rizshe
20:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Recently, User:Arawiki has continuously undertaken a number of disruptive edits while refusing to respond to requests to respect the consensus version of the article. These issues include:
Initially this user's edits (and those of anonymous IP addresses making the same exact edits, suggesting the possibility of a Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry violation) appeared to be in violation of the official Wikipedia:Vandalism policy. Now I am not sure if these edits are indeed in good faith or simply disruptive; the matter is not clear. What is clear, however, is that this edit is a clear violation of both the official Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Civility policies. Anyone is welcome to contribute to Wikipedia as long as they can do so in a professional, helpful, and mature manner. Intentionally insertion factual inaccuracies, violation the official Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy, and launching of insults is neither helpful nor conducive to a good editing environment. MezzoMezzo 14:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Before going on, I would like to defend myself against the personal attacks once again aimed against me and my edits.
Saudi Arabia is the only openly Salafi nation in the world, and not only has the country done much for the Salafi da'wah both financially and otherwise, but Rabee Al-Madkhali has as well. The information in his article speaks for itself. Your claim is entirely false and invalid.
He studied under Omar Abdel Rahman among other prominent terrorists and/or supporters of terrorism, in addition to being a strong influence on Osama bin Laden, the biggest terrorist and khariji alive today. Again, the article on Abdullah Azzam speaks for itself and you are again entirely incorrect in this matter.
With the exception of the two shaikhs from Yemen - which is an issue that you do have a point in since they don't have articles yet - everything I have done has been properly sourced. As I said before, Shaikh Rabee's article speaks for itself; Azzam and Qutb's articles do as well and it is clear from that that they are both khariji/ikhwani in ideology and there is nary a mention of Salafism in their articles. The fact that you brought up sources actually refutes what you say.
As for the rest of your comments, they are pure trolling; you copied and pasted my comments as Itaqallah had mentioned. Please review
WP:Troll and the above policies that I have mentioned, as your comments are disruptive to this page.
As for Itaqallah's suggestion, I believe this is very helpful and as always I am thankful to have your input. I am confident that the original consensus version of this article will be found to be quite sound.
MezzoMezzo
20:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
There are some vandals persistently deleting the names of scholars on this article, they do not make them selves known rather they anonymously engaged in this illegal activity. They should fear Allah and refrain from these actions, may Allah guide them. NS73 Ns73 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ns73 ( talk • contribs) 13:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
It appears that the disruption has not ceased though any attempt to explain it has. As has been said before, the insertion of Sayyid Qutb and Abdullah Azzam into this article is factually incorrect; both are widely considered to be ikhwaani (Muslim Brotherhood) and not salafi, and Azzam himself even said he follows the ikhwaani methodology and not the salafi methodology. In addition to this, the reference for his insertion is a quote from Time Magazine calling him a reviver of jihad; that would be relevant to the jihad article but it doesn't explain his insertion here especially considering that in his own words he was not salafi. As far as Qutb, there is already an article about his ideology ( Qutbism); it does not make sense to put him in an article for an entirely different ideology especially considering that the only reference is an interview not accesible to readers of English Wikipedia. In addition, the consistent removal of Rabee al-Madkhali and Muqbil al-Wadiee has not been explained despite their articles demonstrating their importance to the modern salafi movement; other scholars suck as Saalih Fawzan and Badi-uddeen as-Sindi among others have continued despite it being known that material on notability is currently being collected to create their articles soon. As far as the insertion of a section on Saudi, it teeters on the edge of the official Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not policy; why not include modern salafi attitudes toward Ethiopia, or Malaysia, or every other Muslim country? It's a trivia section and is of no use. As far as the links section, that issue has already been resolved amicably as may be seen below. This behavior should cease for the time being at the very least and ideally should be defended in some way based on official site policy, and not POV. MezzoMezzo 19:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Arawiki, you're flat out wrong about what khariji means and considering that you actually know Arabic, I have a feeling you're aware of that. As I explained before, a khariji is a member of the
Khawarij sect; it DOES NOT mean dog of the hellfire. The Arabic word for dog is kalb and fire is nar, neither of which are linguistically related to that word. As for the civility policy, please don't misuse policies as I didn't even direct the word at you to begin with.
Now, as for the issues at hand. As I have told you a million times before, the references for the contributions to salafiyyah from Muqbil and Rabee are already on their articles; it is well known and already provided there, and you consistently trolling the talk page pretending it isn't won't fool anybody. As for the others, I already told you information on them is being compiled. You are aware of this now and you need to stop, I have told you multiple times.
As for Qutb, you provided absolutely no academic reference whatsoever; you gave an interview, which isn't in English, and yes, that does bring up issues with
Wikipedia:Verifiability and related guidelines. As for Azzam, it is well know that he said, very clearly that he follows the ikhwaani manhaj. As has been pointed out by multiple users, people who consider the Muslim Brotherhood salafi outnumber those who do not. Furthermore, nobody here claimed that Saudi Arabia has a monopoly on salafiyyah so your point there is moot; you haven't provided any sort of reference why the section should remain, and your own personal *opinion* that some people think Saudi has a monopoly on it isn't actually proof of anything. Speaking of the separate sections in "jihadist salafis" and "saudi salafis", there aren't any references for those sections at all, seeing as how you seem to take referencing seriously.
You have also failed to explain your disruptions on the external links section, which as can be seen below has already been agreed upon and you provided no comment. Please don't claim consensus when you clearly do not have it, as we know from the official
Wikipedia:Consensus policy that
consensus can change. This version of the article has been standing for a while, and on top of this your edits have been reverted by multiple users; you clearly have no consensus.
MezzoMezzo
15:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
What's wrong with the text:
Maybe it should be qualified ("for example many salafi believe ...") but it certainly seems relatvent to the issue. -- BoogaLouie 15:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The "Distinctive belief and practice" section should discuss matters of creed, and not eating with your hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.187.178.106 ( talk) 18:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I think there are amazing similarities between the goals of Salafin and those of Dor Daim, each in their respective religions of course. Each are for a return to an original pure form of their religion, each are against innovations, each emphasize monotheism and strongely reject idolatry and/or praying/beseeching past (dead) leaders, and both are particular in pronunciation and transliterations. Those who follow what they call " Messianic Judaism" appear to be striving for the same within the context of Christianity... and all this within the same century. I just find this very interesting and wonder what it implies.... certainly there hasn't been such desire to return to pure religion and to so shed what are perceived as false teachings and practices like this in the past... irrespective of which religion is correct. There seems to be a renewal in the hearts of mankind to pursue unadulterated truth... should these similarities be commented upon somehow? I hope (and believe) that eventually all those who sincerely desire truth, of each religion, will eventually come to agreement. Omedyashar 20:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The external links in this article seem biased and rather irrelevant as they are not sources and do not add to the article. Please compare with articles about other religious groups - for example the article about sunnies themselves. The links should be evaluated and their relevance justified - or they should be deleted. -- Sir48 20:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
IMHO the WP:EL is quite adequate for judging the inclusion of these links. I have visited them, and my recommendation is to include the following four only:
This means exclusion of the following:
Looking forward to comments and possible suggestions for other informative sites. -- Sir48 21:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Some of the references (most?) are crap too. Don't know anything about the subject, but they need to be culled and replaced. – Mike. lifeguard | @en.wb 00:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Rahim, wa As-Salatu wa As-Salamu ala Sayidina Muhammad, sayed al awaleen wal akhereen. In my opinion, from reading several articles such as on Islamonline.net and even this one, that it is apparent that the Islamic revival movement by Muhammad Ibn Abdel-Wahab (or el-Wahaabiya) and the Islamic revival movement by Muhammad Abdo (or el-Salafiya) are different in some aspects and hence should not be lumped together in one article. It is important however not to take the ways of Jahiliya in fighting as if one tribe against the other and acknowledging that under Islam there is an "Umbrella" of allowed diversity in jurisprudence. Hence, remember that we are Muslims and do not pretend to be scholars if you aren't. Remember that while the Tatar where about to invade Baghdad and bring down the Islamic empire, the people forgot about defending the city and were concerned with arguing whether it is Halal or Haram to eat the meat of a Horse !!! In conclusion, please separate these into two articles, so that every school of jurisprudence could present their ideas. Ittaku Allaha Ikhwanee, wa As-Salamu Alaykum wa Rahmatu Allah. -- 132.178.206.121 06:02, 28 October 2007 (UTC) Akhukum fee Al Islam
It is suggested that they must be merged bcoz both are One and there should not be two article with ifferent Name glorifying a Movement which has history of Violence.Shabiha 15:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Salafism (Arabic: سلفي "predecessors" or "early generations"), is a generic term, depicting a Sunni Islamic school of thought that takes the pious ancestors (Salaf) of the patristic period of early Islam as exemplary models.
Salafism is often used interchangeably with "Wahhabism". Adherents usually reject this term because it is considered derogatory and because none of the adherents of Salafism in the past ever referred to themselves as such. Typically, they used terms like "Muwahidoon," "Ahle Hadith," or "Ahl at-Tawheed."
Wahhabism (Arabic: Al-Wahhābīyya الوهابية, Wahabism) is a branch of Sunni Islam practised by those who follow the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab, after whom the movement is named.
The term "Wahhabi" (Wahhābīya) is considered derogatory and rarely used by the people it is used to describe, who preferred to be called "unitarians".
The hadiths and quotes of Islamic Personalities have been added to influence as they were made regarding Modern day salafi. This Saudi Doctrine has Spread in recent Years and they gave Salaf name in Saudi and Europe where as Ahle Hadiths is their name in Asia. Sunni Islamic Scholars have recognized them on the basis of their Views which are nothing but teachings of Ibn a Wahab and Ibn Taimiah.
Actually most of the current version has been discussed, just before you decided to come along and inject your own personal POV (along with some hefty deletions). If you take issue with something, then discuss it first, but don't just delete anything you personally disagree with; WP:OWN is quite relevant here. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 07:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
To claim that wahabism and salafism are one and the same is clearly mistaken. In this article itself is a quote from the book Al-Ansab citing the term salafi centuries before the birth of Muhammad ibn Abdul al-Wahhab. While establishing independent beginnings for each of the two might not be entirely conclusive, it does go a long way towards distinguishing between the two. Supertouch ( talk) 21:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I am taking a class on Middle East History at Wayne State University. We discussed Salafism and Wahabism today. From what was stated by my teacher who is a Muslim, and by at least two Musim students in class the Selafi and the Wahabi are different groups. They both were initially inspired by the Hanbali School of Sunni Islam, but they have different ideologies, although they have similar positions on some issues. Johnpacklambert ( talk) 01:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I am discussing first this Content Salafis view the first three generations of Muslims, who are Muhammad's companions, and the two succeeding generations after them, the Tabi‘in and the Taba‘ at-Tabi‘in, as examples of how Islam should be practiced. This principle is derived from the following hadith by Muhammad:
“ The people of my generation are the best, then those who follow them, and then whose who follow the latter (i.e. the first three generations of Muslims).[4] ”
This Hadith has no relevancy at all in this article as they are not among the said generations.
The principal tenet of Salafism is that Islam was perfect and complete during the days of Muhammad and his companions, but that undesirable innovations have been added over the later centuries due to materialist and cultural influences. Salafism seeks to revive a practice of Islam that more closely resembles the religion during the time of Muhammad.[5]
Blatant POV regarding Undesirable Innovations
Salafism has also been described as a simplified version of Islam, in which adherents follow a few commands and practices.[6]
All Claims need to be Supported by Neutral sources. Shabiha ( t 14:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Sahiba's edits are in gross contravention to Wikipedia's long established rule of Neutrality. Not only are his/her edits devoid of neutral editing, they also lack sheer clarity as exemplified by his/her prior contributions. Scythian1 ( talk) 23:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I wonder if the term muslim diaspora in 'It is increasingly important to diasporic Muslims in Europe, Canada, and the United States.' (contemporary salafism) is npov. As i get it a diaspora is a forced dispersion, so the actual current 'muslim diaspora' are the people from ,irak ,somalia, palestine, afghanistan, checnya, and to a greater or lesser extend many others (sudan eg.) that while bearing a muslim identity fled their grounds or were victimised or related to muslim that had to flee. As a result there are millions of muslim people also in arab nations that have a (salafist) grudge. Strangely this npov statement forfills 2 needs, the 'islam' need to unite and group (but hypocritically so) and the wish not to notion the western (imperialist) diasporic and genocidal effects (exactly as hypocritical). 77.251.34.32 ( talk) 11:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
You removed the fair Just reasonable valid relevant neutral sourced Content from this Article .This is Total Hypocrisy People day and night are Involved in adding Criticism to Others Page but removed same from where they dont like. You are starting edit warring here. You always asks about earlier discussion Did You discussed that?No. NOW eschew that. Shabiha ( t) 14:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
The dates given for Muhammad bin 'Ali al Shawkani (1750 C.E. - present) (in the section Notable modern Salafi scholars > Yemen) cannot possibly be right. Somebody who knows the dates should correct this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CFynn ( talk • contribs) 07:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
The article does not make it clear that the essential distinction between the orthodox Sunni majority and the (so-called) Salafi movement is in the matter of `Aqidah (Creed). The traditional Sunni Muslims believe that Allah is is absolutely Incomparable and absolutely Transcendent (as in Free-of-Need--and NOT of altitude). The sayings of the Sunni scholars, including the genuine Salaf (the people of the first 300 Hijriyy years), is that Allah is not a corporeal entity, and that Allah exists without being in one or in all locations. Among the most famous treatises on the Sunni Creed, the `Aqidah of At-Tahawiyy, the author said:
"Allah is supremely glorified from all boundaries, extremities, sides, organs, and small body parts or devices (adawaat). None of the six directions [above, below, right left, in front, or behind] contain Allah as is the case with all the creations."
This statement alone is adequate to refute the tashbih (the blasphemous belief in God-resemblance) of the so-called "Salfis". Among the beliefs of the so-called Salafis is that Allah is "sitting in person" (as Uthaimeen claims) above the creation and has a giant smiling face, large eyes, a pair of outstretched hands, a tibia, two enormous feet, and spends part of the day inside the creations. As any native speaker of English can understand that idiomatic and figurative usage abounds in the English language, and that we don't take every phrase at "face value," one should be able to understand that Qur'anic Arabic also uses figurative language. Various Arabic terms in the Qur'an may have a dozen or more different meanings in the Arabic language, and only a person who is out of touch with the heritage of Islamic scholarship would insist that Allah, Who is the Creator of space and all that exists within space, is a spatial entity with corporeal characteristics. The so-called "Salafis" are only Sunni in name, but not in Creed or methodology. That is a simple fact of history.
The belief that Allah is a spatial being with "real actual" organs and appendages is a doctrine that goes back to some of the pseudo-Hanbalis, who misunderstood and distorted the non-literal verses (muhkam) of the Qur'an (as well as, Hadith of the Prophet). As a result of the quasi-salafis' erroneous methodology, they rendered various verses and Hadiths in opposition to each other, and incongruous with basic common sense. In summary the Eternal Creator was and place/space/direction were not. After Allah created place/space/direction, Allah did not transform and begin to exist in place, space, or direction. This is the belief of the Muslims and can be found in hundreds of classical books on the Islamic `Aqidah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noor House ( talk • contribs) 03:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
The article should say something about the connection between Wahhabism and Salafism. That idea, or the dispute over it, is all over the talk page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Salafi#Are_Wahabism_and_Salafism_one.3F
but nowhere in the article.
We could start with this from the Wahhabism article
-- BoogaLouie ( talk) 17:37, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
This new Salafi article is what we need to base the information around. It is non-bias and very informative. It dose not have irrelevant headings like “distinctive beliefs and practices” since there is nothing distinctive about it. For example is the act of not celebrating the prophet’s birthday. This should not be in the article since the act of not doing something is not a reason to be distinct.
Another heading that should not be in the article is “the history of Salafism”. This is foolish. What history are we talking about here? It is clear that the Salafis have no distinctive beginning. They are the Sunni sect. And if Salafism dose have a beginning after the rise of Islam who founded it. Is it abu Bakr the first caliph or Omar the second caliph. Or was it Imam abu Hanifa, or Imam Malik, or Imam Hanbal. Could it be Imam Muhammad al-Bukhari. Ibn Taymiyyah, bin Baz. We can go on and on.
The old article was very confusing, unorganized, very biased and offensive. The new one is simple and clear to understand. It can be more wikified but besides that it is better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.93.46.149 ( talk) 18:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
The most controversial of my recent changes was to clarify that these are Sunni sources that the Salafi movement is using, not necessarily sources agreed upon by the entire Ummah. I also clarified that when a scholar was quoted, Salafis were stating this to prove their point, not simply have the scholar quoted in the article as if this is the authoritative interpretation of what the scholar meant. -- Enzuru 23:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:LEAD, "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies that may exist." We should note Salafism's relation with other mainstream Muslim groups, as well as notable criticism by Western establishments. What is the best way to go about this? -- Enzuru 05:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)