Sal Maglie has been listed as one of the
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please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 10:30, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Wasted Time R ( talk · contribs) 00:18, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
I have begun reviewing this article.
Wasted Time R (
talk)
00:18, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
A comprehensive article, but a few aspects need attention
Regarding the lede. Per MOS:LEADLENGTH, the general guideline for lede length for an article of this size is three to four paragraphs, and this one is five paragraphs. It dives into too much year-by-year detail when it should be a picture of Maglie's entire career. A lede does not need to include records almost set, or descriptions of shoe lifts, or descriptions of no-decision starts, or mentions of World Series ineligible to participate in, just to pick a few examples. Compare with the ledes of some GA articles for other pitchers from that era, such as Bob Turley or Bob Lemon or Hoyt Wilhelm.
There are three things that stories about Maglie always talk about - his foreboding physical appearance, his love of pitching inside, and that he came to success late. The lede only talks about the second of these. It should mention his appearance, and it should explicitly point out that it took Maglie until age 28 to reach the majors, and then he lost five more years, so his big success started at age 33. That's pretty remarkable.
Regarding topics in the article body. There should be a little bit more about his stint in the Mexican League. Such as that he won 20 games each of the two years he pitched there (from Baseball-Reference). And it would be good to give a little more context, such as that Maglie was one of several quality major leaguers to jump to the Mexican League at the time – others include Mickey Owen, Danny Gardela, and Max Lanier – but that not enough did for the Mexican League to attract the greater revenues it needed to support such players (from The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, pp. 34, 608).
For the paragraph on 1957, if Maglie was pitching effectively for the Dodgers, why did they want to unload him? Were they out of the pennant race by then and looking to trade age for youth? Also re 1957, the two usages of "the playoffs" in this paragraph are an anachronism and should be reworded. Back then there was just the World Series, nothing else. The term "playoff" meant only if a regular season tie for the pennant had to be broken by an extra game or games (and those games counted in regular season statistics).
For the Legacy and career statistics section, after the mention of the Hall of Fame, it could be stated that in the 1964 Baseball Hall of Fame balloting in his first year of eligibility, he was named on only 13 ballots (6.5% of those cast) – see https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1964.shtml. I don't think he appeared in any subsequent votings.
This section should also include some modern advanced statistics. Right now WHIP in the career statistics is the only one I see. Maybe include his career WAR, and his season WAR for a few of his best years like 1950 and 1951. You can use the Baseball-Reference formulation for WAR, since it's the basis for most of the stats in the article. You can also say that in the The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (2001), sabermetrician Bill James ranks Maglie as the best pitcher in baseball for 1951 (p. 225) and says that Maglie probably would have won the Cy Young Award in 1951 had it been in existence at the time (pp. 857–858).
In the Coaching career section, the material about Ball Four could use some better citing and additional use. That Maglie was Bouton's boyhood her and idol is stated on pages 14 and 112. Those pages also have a good physical description of what Maglie looked like as a coach: on p. 14, Bouton says "He still looks like he'd knock down his grandmother. He's got those big evil-looking black eyes." And on p. 112, Bouton says a nickname people on the team gave him was "The Screaming Skull", after the horror film of the same name. The bit about Maglie frequently second-guessing the pitches on the staff is stated on pp. 95–96. But it needs to be added that the greatest friction between Maglie and Bouton concerned the knuckleball. Bouton wanted to use it almost exclusively, while Maglie constantly wants him to throw other pitches as well, as stated on pp. 67, 145, 167. Overall, as stated on pp. 112, 173, Bouton is angered by Maglie's rigid thinking (not realizing that the knuckleball is inherently different from other pitches) and general lack of communication and advice.
There should be a "Further reading" section added, with entries for each of the published biographies about Maglie, none of which are used as a source here (also a summary of the Testa bio is heavily used):
Regarding image licensing, what makes File:Sal Maglie 1955.jpg and File:Sal Maglie 1969.jpg usable? How do we know there was no copyright on the actual cards? And regarding image captioning, is it possible to pin down when File:Sal Maglie 1956.jpg is from? The Commons description says 1953, not 1955 or 1956. Finally, a good image to add to the Legacy section would be File:Sal Maglie stadium signage.jpg, especially since that image is not used in the article about the stadium itself. Wasted Time R ( talk) 13:58, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
I think I've addressed your changes; hope the lead's short enough for you now. Thank you for finding all those other wonderful sources, which I think improved the article greatly; I tried to add most of them in. (Maglie was well before my time, so please forgive me for not remembering to mention his mound presence!) There are just five things:
Let me know if I need to address anything else. Sanfranciscogiants17 ( talk) 20:48, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Sal Maglie has been listed as one of the
Sports and recreation good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: September 4, 2020. ( Reviewed version). |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Sal Maglie. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:29, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 10:30, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Wasted Time R ( talk · contribs) 00:18, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
I have begun reviewing this article.
Wasted Time R (
talk)
00:18, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
A comprehensive article, but a few aspects need attention
Regarding the lede. Per MOS:LEADLENGTH, the general guideline for lede length for an article of this size is three to four paragraphs, and this one is five paragraphs. It dives into too much year-by-year detail when it should be a picture of Maglie's entire career. A lede does not need to include records almost set, or descriptions of shoe lifts, or descriptions of no-decision starts, or mentions of World Series ineligible to participate in, just to pick a few examples. Compare with the ledes of some GA articles for other pitchers from that era, such as Bob Turley or Bob Lemon or Hoyt Wilhelm.
There are three things that stories about Maglie always talk about - his foreboding physical appearance, his love of pitching inside, and that he came to success late. The lede only talks about the second of these. It should mention his appearance, and it should explicitly point out that it took Maglie until age 28 to reach the majors, and then he lost five more years, so his big success started at age 33. That's pretty remarkable.
Regarding topics in the article body. There should be a little bit more about his stint in the Mexican League. Such as that he won 20 games each of the two years he pitched there (from Baseball-Reference). And it would be good to give a little more context, such as that Maglie was one of several quality major leaguers to jump to the Mexican League at the time – others include Mickey Owen, Danny Gardela, and Max Lanier – but that not enough did for the Mexican League to attract the greater revenues it needed to support such players (from The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, pp. 34, 608).
For the paragraph on 1957, if Maglie was pitching effectively for the Dodgers, why did they want to unload him? Were they out of the pennant race by then and looking to trade age for youth? Also re 1957, the two usages of "the playoffs" in this paragraph are an anachronism and should be reworded. Back then there was just the World Series, nothing else. The term "playoff" meant only if a regular season tie for the pennant had to be broken by an extra game or games (and those games counted in regular season statistics).
For the Legacy and career statistics section, after the mention of the Hall of Fame, it could be stated that in the 1964 Baseball Hall of Fame balloting in his first year of eligibility, he was named on only 13 ballots (6.5% of those cast) – see https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1964.shtml. I don't think he appeared in any subsequent votings.
This section should also include some modern advanced statistics. Right now WHIP in the career statistics is the only one I see. Maybe include his career WAR, and his season WAR for a few of his best years like 1950 and 1951. You can use the Baseball-Reference formulation for WAR, since it's the basis for most of the stats in the article. You can also say that in the The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (2001), sabermetrician Bill James ranks Maglie as the best pitcher in baseball for 1951 (p. 225) and says that Maglie probably would have won the Cy Young Award in 1951 had it been in existence at the time (pp. 857–858).
In the Coaching career section, the material about Ball Four could use some better citing and additional use. That Maglie was Bouton's boyhood her and idol is stated on pages 14 and 112. Those pages also have a good physical description of what Maglie looked like as a coach: on p. 14, Bouton says "He still looks like he'd knock down his grandmother. He's got those big evil-looking black eyes." And on p. 112, Bouton says a nickname people on the team gave him was "The Screaming Skull", after the horror film of the same name. The bit about Maglie frequently second-guessing the pitches on the staff is stated on pp. 95–96. But it needs to be added that the greatest friction between Maglie and Bouton concerned the knuckleball. Bouton wanted to use it almost exclusively, while Maglie constantly wants him to throw other pitches as well, as stated on pp. 67, 145, 167. Overall, as stated on pp. 112, 173, Bouton is angered by Maglie's rigid thinking (not realizing that the knuckleball is inherently different from other pitches) and general lack of communication and advice.
There should be a "Further reading" section added, with entries for each of the published biographies about Maglie, none of which are used as a source here (also a summary of the Testa bio is heavily used):
Regarding image licensing, what makes File:Sal Maglie 1955.jpg and File:Sal Maglie 1969.jpg usable? How do we know there was no copyright on the actual cards? And regarding image captioning, is it possible to pin down when File:Sal Maglie 1956.jpg is from? The Commons description says 1953, not 1955 or 1956. Finally, a good image to add to the Legacy section would be File:Sal Maglie stadium signage.jpg, especially since that image is not used in the article about the stadium itself. Wasted Time R ( talk) 13:58, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
I think I've addressed your changes; hope the lead's short enough for you now. Thank you for finding all those other wonderful sources, which I think improved the article greatly; I tried to add most of them in. (Maglie was well before my time, so please forgive me for not remembering to mention his mound presence!) There are just five things:
Let me know if I need to address anything else. Sanfranciscogiants17 ( talk) 20:48, 29 August 2020 (UTC)