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Archive 1 |
Saka or Shaka are names that Persians and Indians called Sarmathians and Scythians by it,so this article must be redirected to Scythian page. (Anonymous User:81.12.38.14, not otherwise represented at Wikipedia)
As far as I know Saka (Scythian) and Shakya (the Buddha's tribe) are totally unrelated, although both were probably Indo-Aryan (since the Shakya were Kshatriya). I have never seen anywhere a connection between the two, appart from some vague suggestions from time to time. I really don't think the articles should be merged. PHG 11:33, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
1- you reject without any clear alternative reason. 2- Budha was not Kshatrya cast but Chudras. 3- Chudras were farmers and not millitary or Defenders (Kshatryas) 4- Budhas family were land owners (Feudalistic nobels) - Kshatriya or EKH-SHAT-RAYA is an old Iranian word means DEFENDER, PROTECTOR and the same definition later pronounced as SHAH hence its meaning have changed to THE KING, the kings of Persian empire were called "Ekhshatrayas" , later Shah, such as Shah of Persia. In India Kshatrya is the title of DEFENDER class of hinduism.
Could saka be derived from the name for horse 'Ashva'.
Many Iranian names of cities : Sega, seka, sika, sigaa, sigu, segaan, sigaan, sikan, sakan, sakaan, Sagasar, Sakasar, Siestan ( Sakastan ) , sagez, , .............and names , Ashkan, Sasan (sakan or sagan ) , or ...............family names : Sakai, Sekai, Sakui, Sakoi, Sakooi, Saakaaee, Saakaaian, Sasani, Saghai, Sazai, Ashkan, Ashkani, Askui, Askooi, Ashkooian, Askaani, TONS of names of cities, regions , mountains, rivers , even human names and family or clan names cognated from SAKA. also mystical terms in persian piterature such as SAGHI a highly respected "BAR TENDER" whom is giving, or donating, or even allowing the POET to drink WINE or taxucating drinks ! Bartender some times appears as God or some sort of super being ,, but his devotion is not more than a normal bartender would do in a bar ! plenty of songs in Iranian foklorinc expressions SAGHI has the sentral rule ! I think a house where drinking water for public would be called Sagha khaneh (?), a Sagha is whom protect the water disturbers ? water-man would be called sagha (?) I am not very sure on sagha or sagha khaneh issue, any one who speaks persian? leave a coment on this please !
The recent User:24.251.32.45 who has recast this article has done comparable work at Drang nach Osten. -- Wetman 06:24, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
This article does not mention the importance of Saka heroes in Iranian literature. The Saka heroes Rustam, Zal and others are among the most important heroes of Persian nationalism and Persian literature. Usually, Persians identify themselvs with these Saka heroes, as mentioned in Ferdousi's " Shahnama". According to some historians (for example Frye), this is a proof for the Iranian heritage of the Saka. - 213.39.153.241 21:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
They were Parthians not Sacaes --
88.68.217.53
11:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Many Persian dialects use a word "ZAGH" for any one having blue eyes. Being ZAGH is not necessarily being white or European. I make some example below :
Kamran Russ ast = Kamran is blond ( rus or ross not to be mixed with Russians, see below example ) Mikhail Rusi ast = Mikhail is Russian Kamran boor ast = Kamran is blond In kurdish Kamran SUR e = Kamran is blond but when Kamran ZAGH ast = his look maybe Indian , Arabian, Turkish, Persian, European.....only the color of eye. So maybe Saka people have had genetically divers background yet their eye color could have been either blue or green ? We can find many ethnics like that in Caucasus, Turkey, Israel, Palestine, Iran and India : Sarkass or Sakiss for instance , varies skin or hair color but majority blue or green eyes. Dark haired-skins with Hazel eye or braun and black with sort of BLUISH or GREENISH flash in the EYE is also ZAGH. Majority Gypsies in europe are Zagh acording to this definition ! Many dark tribals from India too are Zagh. The conclussion is : Has ZAGH any thing to do with Saks linguistically? can any one answer me professionally?
I have deleted a major part of the article. The theory that the Germanic people has originated in the Saka branch of Indo-Iranian has no support at all in the handbooks. There are no similarities between Germanic and Indo-Iranian beyond the fact that both language groups are Indo-European. They do not share any common linguistic innovations (even the merger of o and a is different in the two branches since Germanic does not have "Brugmann's Law"). The racial argument is even more problematic. Enkyklios 11:43, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The deleted text:
[http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/Oric.Basirov/origin_of_the_iranians.htm] [1], [2], [3] See also: Pashtun, Jat (people)
1st: mostly of them was horsemen; 2nd: they buried dead in kurgans; 3rd: they was archers; 4th: they lived in Central Asia & didn't migrated to anywhere(like it's said in western books); 5th: You can't say about their genetics 'cause you never saw them.
From the Kurgan that the golden attire was found, a silver plate was also found. There were old Turkish runic writings on the plate and it says the gold attire belonged to a prince who died young. If nothing else, this itself proves that Saka's were Turkish origin. In Shahname, even todays northern Iran was considered as Turkic lands, like the city of Kazvin. Claiming further northern steps as Persian land based on Shahname is simply wrong. There was always a Turkic presence in Euroasian steps, at least from the Hunic times, and even after that those lands were called Saka lands. I don't know any proven evidence for Persian presence at all. I am going to remove the sentence saying Sakas or Scythians were Iranian. I'll try to find the picture of the plate and post it too. There are extreme racist statements about Turks in some paragraphs above, I hope somebody will do smth about those users too.
Erguvan7
06:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear Ali, I read Shahnameh, many times, it is a graet saga. In Shahnameh, It says Qazvin was founded by Turks and named after Qaz, a Turkish Princess. There are lots of wars and land exchange in Shahname, but even Shahname accepts that Qazvin was/is a Turkic city. There is an undisputable evidence that Sakas spoke Turkish, which You removed from the page (silver plate). There is NO evidence that Saka's, forget about Iranian, even Indo-European. Therefore I change the page again.
Shahnameh was written during mongoli-turkic empire of Ghaznavides - What ferdosi says has nothing to do with FACT but the book is about legends of Perso-Sakic mythology as reviewed re-written for persians and sakic future! why would I say sakic here? yes SISTAN ( Sakestan ) is the senter of every thing in shahnameh , even the main hero ROSTAM is from sistan. Ferdosi mentions varies folks or people as either ARYANS or NOT ARYANS in which amongth them EIRAN versus TURAN as competitive ( not enimy - shahnameh does not support GOOD and EVIL values and it rather follows mythical times value conception , where tragedy and comedy were interpretet as Abrahamic version "good and evil" ..... in shahnameh neither IRAN is good nor TURAN ! but they compete.... and tons of tragedy happens .... TURAN ? ( EUROPE ! )..................................................................................................................... Ghazvin ( arabic name of KASPIAN )..... the definition goes long long before any one knw what TURK is ! KASPAR in TORAT .... KASHMIR in India ( many tribes moved towards india from KASPIR .... later dialectical misinterpretation renames it as KASH-M-IR.... hence in the vedic text we are dealing with KASPIRS invaders of north india and not kashmir ,,,, I beleive TURKS problem has to do with their MODERN identities ,,, all TURKIC states both in west or eastern IRAN of NORTH are given birth by ISLAM ! which means by becoming MUSLIMS and enfusion of tribals ,,, becoming sattlers with Persian culture ,, their IDENTITY was shaped .............. now sociologically one can not say TURK and not MUSLIM ! TURK is synonymous with Islam...................................... running away from this reality Turks of both east and west are trying all they can to attache them selves to any thing that is to debate ! and if you psychoogically read TURKS mind about things they are desperately in search of prooving their IDENTITY ! an example is the definition TURAN ,,, TURAN is not defined by ferdosi ,,, but both Avesta and Veda mention TURAN as the nordic part of the WORLD ! the whole north and beyound........................... I beleive this "TURK THING" mixed in debating to know about ancient peoples is waste of time ! TURK are to concider after 4th entury AD .... as above it is said : during and after mongol expantion into EurAsia !................................................................................................... .................................................................................................................................................. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.212.121.177 ( talk) 18:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Claim! This Iran's history is not Persians', it belongs to Turkish people after they learnt Islam by old people of Khorasan whose language was not Persian but was Dary, this Persian is just a name remains. And if you investigate in Chinese old documents, you can find that Chinese of 5000 years ago called Turkish people in Altay mountains as their western neighbours, but how about the Persian history as of 2500 years ago it began, so Turks do not want to prove their Identity, The Persians need to do it! You even do not know when Mongols came to Iran, they defeat Kharazm Shah, who was Turkish king of Khorasan at that moment, and Turks came here on Iranians demands to fight against the Christians about 400 years before Mongols. Racism is not a good thing (as you are a racist) but sometimes some people make me become a defender of truth. unsigned comment added by 85.15.17.141 ( talk) 18:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Salam Ali. If removing sources is vandalism, why do You keep removing the picture of the plate, just because it doesn't support your oppinion? Lets put both oppinions in the article and lets readers decide which one makes more sense. You can refer to the any sources, but most reliable evidences come from archeological findings. I am not going to delete your view, I am just going to put sources and evidence supporting Turkic origin. Beginning of the article says Sakas were Iranian, what I am saying is this is at least debatable. I just read Bulgars page and even there someone said Bulgarians were Iranian originally?? Lets devide the origion section into Iranian, Turkic and other sub-sections and put related resiurces into respective sub-section, instead of saying Sakas were Iranian at the beginning. Even if You don't accept Turkic origin opinion, let others express it in the article. I prefer You do that since You made more effort on the article, and You are more experinced in editting. If You don't, I'll try to do it.
What Ali has done (deleting some things) is what all Persian and Kurdish people do to make a so-called history for themselves by supports and helps of some religious Zionist Jewish people. They even did not know Kourosh(Cyrus) until 100 years ago and they found him by Jewish history. Who destroyed the oldest civilisation of the world, which belonged to Arabs and Assyrians? Of course Kourosh, he did worse than Changiz khan at that moment, but since he is their ancestor he becomes "the Great" and Changiz becomes "wild one". One thing that is so important here is: "Before Turkish Ghaznavis there were not even one famous Persian person or Persian scientist or even Persian Poet and etc". Even in time of Achaemenians, no one can claim there was one famous Persian like Greeks' Plato (Aflatoon), Aristotle (Arastu) and Socrates (Sukrat). They are getting used to change the history by deleting its bad parts in their points of view. The Persian people and also the Kurdish people delete Turkish and Assyrians History to prove their so-called civilisations, but how they could change the history parallel to each other without any interfering? God knows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.15.17.141 ( talk) 18:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Sakas are considered Iranian by mainstream western scholars and there is a dialect called Khotanese Sakas [8] [9]. The "Turkic origin" opinion does not hold in the academic world and there is no need for subsection, when something is not academically supported in the modern academic world and in modern universities. Find support of it in a mainstream source like Encyclopedia Britannica and then there could be a section. Besides the fact that there is a language called Khotanese Saka, which is academically recognized [ [10]]. As per Cyrus the Great, he was known way before 100 years ago. Biruni mentions him and many aspects of Shahnameh show similar stories to Cyrus. As per destruction, sorry there was no Arab civilization in Babylon and all sources also say Babylon was flourishing under Achaemenids. So do not make up history although pan-Turanian theories are ripe and we do get people making some claims, but all of them are from a few select countries and they do it for nationalistic reasons. Before the Turkish Gahznavids, there was famous Persian poets: Rudaki, Persian scientist: Razi. As per famous people under the Achaemenids, there is enough evidence that Greeks also studied Persian scientists. The discussion is about Sakas, so bring any modern, up-to-date, Western academic source or else stop the Soap Boxing. We already know there is a lot of cranky pan-Turkists from some places and some of them even mix up Pourpirar crankism with their pan-Turanism. But in Wikipedia, there is no place for cranky theories. -- alidoostzadeh ( talk) 18:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Now that copyediting has made it clearer what the content of Invasion of India by Scythian Tribes is, I suggest that that it be deleted and relevant sections be moved to Indo-scythians, Scythians, Sakas, Scythia, etc.
The content of Invasion of India by Scythian Tribes itself substantially duplicates these articles and I can't see any reason for keeping it as a standalone wikipedia entry.-- Saganaki- 11:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
why the second paragraph has a link to ashkenazi jews article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.155.118.161 ( talk) 10:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC).
Good point! I wonder why too - so I have added "citation needed" tags in two places to see if anyone can come up with proper references for these claims. The info was added by people from the IP addresses: 86.140.13.205 on 28 Aug, 2006 and 81.153.122.48 on 30 Aug, 2006. Hope this is some help. John Hill 23:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
This section of the article is so seriously in need of work that it's ridiculous. It appears to be very remedial work, no citations, no capitalizations, obscure wording, and a complete lack of logical consistency, (citation), historical support, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlon ( talk • contribs) 16:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The banality of some of the discussions and the ethnocentrism of the discussant who try to uselessly connect historic people to this or that modern "ethnicity" is really what drags the quality of Wikipedia down.
Anyway, there is a statement in the article: "Ashkanian means "Sakan people" or "Saka descendants". An Arab source names Sagsar as the place from which Ashkanians originated."
I beg to differ. Yes, the Arsacid family (or as they are called here, the Ashkanian) were originally from the Parni tribe of the Dahae Confederacy. Dahae were a nomadic Central Asian tribal confederacy of Iranian and probably Saka origin (might have been the Saka Haumawarga of the Bistun Inscription of Darius). However, the word "Ashkan" (the root of "Ashkanian") is a patronymic of "Ashk" which is a new Persian version of Parthian "arshak" (Gk. Arsaces), the name of the founder of the dynasty. Now, get on with your baseless discussions...-- Khodadad ( talk) 22:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Saka or Shaka are names that Persians and Indians called Sarmathians and Scythians by it,so this article must be redirected to Scythian page. (Anonymous User:81.12.38.14, not otherwise represented at Wikipedia)
As far as I know Saka (Scythian) and Shakya (the Buddha's tribe) are totally unrelated, although both were probably Indo-Aryan (since the Shakya were Kshatriya). I have never seen anywhere a connection between the two, appart from some vague suggestions from time to time. I really don't think the articles should be merged. PHG 11:33, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
1- you reject without any clear alternative reason. 2- Budha was not Kshatrya cast but Chudras. 3- Chudras were farmers and not millitary or Defenders (Kshatryas) 4- Budhas family were land owners (Feudalistic nobels) - Kshatriya or EKH-SHAT-RAYA is an old Iranian word means DEFENDER, PROTECTOR and the same definition later pronounced as SHAH hence its meaning have changed to THE KING, the kings of Persian empire were called "Ekhshatrayas" , later Shah, such as Shah of Persia. In India Kshatrya is the title of DEFENDER class of hinduism.
Could saka be derived from the name for horse 'Ashva'.
Many Iranian names of cities : Sega, seka, sika, sigaa, sigu, segaan, sigaan, sikan, sakan, sakaan, Sagasar, Sakasar, Siestan ( Sakastan ) , sagez, , .............and names , Ashkan, Sasan (sakan or sagan ) , or ...............family names : Sakai, Sekai, Sakui, Sakoi, Sakooi, Saakaaee, Saakaaian, Sasani, Saghai, Sazai, Ashkan, Ashkani, Askui, Askooi, Ashkooian, Askaani, TONS of names of cities, regions , mountains, rivers , even human names and family or clan names cognated from SAKA. also mystical terms in persian piterature such as SAGHI a highly respected "BAR TENDER" whom is giving, or donating, or even allowing the POET to drink WINE or taxucating drinks ! Bartender some times appears as God or some sort of super being ,, but his devotion is not more than a normal bartender would do in a bar ! plenty of songs in Iranian foklorinc expressions SAGHI has the sentral rule ! I think a house where drinking water for public would be called Sagha khaneh (?), a Sagha is whom protect the water disturbers ? water-man would be called sagha (?) I am not very sure on sagha or sagha khaneh issue, any one who speaks persian? leave a coment on this please !
The recent User:24.251.32.45 who has recast this article has done comparable work at Drang nach Osten. -- Wetman 06:24, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
This article does not mention the importance of Saka heroes in Iranian literature. The Saka heroes Rustam, Zal and others are among the most important heroes of Persian nationalism and Persian literature. Usually, Persians identify themselvs with these Saka heroes, as mentioned in Ferdousi's " Shahnama". According to some historians (for example Frye), this is a proof for the Iranian heritage of the Saka. - 213.39.153.241 21:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
They were Parthians not Sacaes --
88.68.217.53
11:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Many Persian dialects use a word "ZAGH" for any one having blue eyes. Being ZAGH is not necessarily being white or European. I make some example below :
Kamran Russ ast = Kamran is blond ( rus or ross not to be mixed with Russians, see below example ) Mikhail Rusi ast = Mikhail is Russian Kamran boor ast = Kamran is blond In kurdish Kamran SUR e = Kamran is blond but when Kamran ZAGH ast = his look maybe Indian , Arabian, Turkish, Persian, European.....only the color of eye. So maybe Saka people have had genetically divers background yet their eye color could have been either blue or green ? We can find many ethnics like that in Caucasus, Turkey, Israel, Palestine, Iran and India : Sarkass or Sakiss for instance , varies skin or hair color but majority blue or green eyes. Dark haired-skins with Hazel eye or braun and black with sort of BLUISH or GREENISH flash in the EYE is also ZAGH. Majority Gypsies in europe are Zagh acording to this definition ! Many dark tribals from India too are Zagh. The conclussion is : Has ZAGH any thing to do with Saks linguistically? can any one answer me professionally?
I have deleted a major part of the article. The theory that the Germanic people has originated in the Saka branch of Indo-Iranian has no support at all in the handbooks. There are no similarities between Germanic and Indo-Iranian beyond the fact that both language groups are Indo-European. They do not share any common linguistic innovations (even the merger of o and a is different in the two branches since Germanic does not have "Brugmann's Law"). The racial argument is even more problematic. Enkyklios 11:43, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The deleted text:
[http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/Oric.Basirov/origin_of_the_iranians.htm] [1], [2], [3] See also: Pashtun, Jat (people)
1st: mostly of them was horsemen; 2nd: they buried dead in kurgans; 3rd: they was archers; 4th: they lived in Central Asia & didn't migrated to anywhere(like it's said in western books); 5th: You can't say about their genetics 'cause you never saw them.
From the Kurgan that the golden attire was found, a silver plate was also found. There were old Turkish runic writings on the plate and it says the gold attire belonged to a prince who died young. If nothing else, this itself proves that Saka's were Turkish origin. In Shahname, even todays northern Iran was considered as Turkic lands, like the city of Kazvin. Claiming further northern steps as Persian land based on Shahname is simply wrong. There was always a Turkic presence in Euroasian steps, at least from the Hunic times, and even after that those lands were called Saka lands. I don't know any proven evidence for Persian presence at all. I am going to remove the sentence saying Sakas or Scythians were Iranian. I'll try to find the picture of the plate and post it too. There are extreme racist statements about Turks in some paragraphs above, I hope somebody will do smth about those users too.
Erguvan7
06:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear Ali, I read Shahnameh, many times, it is a graet saga. In Shahnameh, It says Qazvin was founded by Turks and named after Qaz, a Turkish Princess. There are lots of wars and land exchange in Shahname, but even Shahname accepts that Qazvin was/is a Turkic city. There is an undisputable evidence that Sakas spoke Turkish, which You removed from the page (silver plate). There is NO evidence that Saka's, forget about Iranian, even Indo-European. Therefore I change the page again.
Shahnameh was written during mongoli-turkic empire of Ghaznavides - What ferdosi says has nothing to do with FACT but the book is about legends of Perso-Sakic mythology as reviewed re-written for persians and sakic future! why would I say sakic here? yes SISTAN ( Sakestan ) is the senter of every thing in shahnameh , even the main hero ROSTAM is from sistan. Ferdosi mentions varies folks or people as either ARYANS or NOT ARYANS in which amongth them EIRAN versus TURAN as competitive ( not enimy - shahnameh does not support GOOD and EVIL values and it rather follows mythical times value conception , where tragedy and comedy were interpretet as Abrahamic version "good and evil" ..... in shahnameh neither IRAN is good nor TURAN ! but they compete.... and tons of tragedy happens .... TURAN ? ( EUROPE ! )..................................................................................................................... Ghazvin ( arabic name of KASPIAN )..... the definition goes long long before any one knw what TURK is ! KASPAR in TORAT .... KASHMIR in India ( many tribes moved towards india from KASPIR .... later dialectical misinterpretation renames it as KASH-M-IR.... hence in the vedic text we are dealing with KASPIRS invaders of north india and not kashmir ,,,, I beleive TURKS problem has to do with their MODERN identities ,,, all TURKIC states both in west or eastern IRAN of NORTH are given birth by ISLAM ! which means by becoming MUSLIMS and enfusion of tribals ,,, becoming sattlers with Persian culture ,, their IDENTITY was shaped .............. now sociologically one can not say TURK and not MUSLIM ! TURK is synonymous with Islam...................................... running away from this reality Turks of both east and west are trying all they can to attache them selves to any thing that is to debate ! and if you psychoogically read TURKS mind about things they are desperately in search of prooving their IDENTITY ! an example is the definition TURAN ,,, TURAN is not defined by ferdosi ,,, but both Avesta and Veda mention TURAN as the nordic part of the WORLD ! the whole north and beyound........................... I beleive this "TURK THING" mixed in debating to know about ancient peoples is waste of time ! TURK are to concider after 4th entury AD .... as above it is said : during and after mongol expantion into EurAsia !................................................................................................... .................................................................................................................................................. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.212.121.177 ( talk) 18:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Claim! This Iran's history is not Persians', it belongs to Turkish people after they learnt Islam by old people of Khorasan whose language was not Persian but was Dary, this Persian is just a name remains. And if you investigate in Chinese old documents, you can find that Chinese of 5000 years ago called Turkish people in Altay mountains as their western neighbours, but how about the Persian history as of 2500 years ago it began, so Turks do not want to prove their Identity, The Persians need to do it! You even do not know when Mongols came to Iran, they defeat Kharazm Shah, who was Turkish king of Khorasan at that moment, and Turks came here on Iranians demands to fight against the Christians about 400 years before Mongols. Racism is not a good thing (as you are a racist) but sometimes some people make me become a defender of truth. unsigned comment added by 85.15.17.141 ( talk) 18:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Salam Ali. If removing sources is vandalism, why do You keep removing the picture of the plate, just because it doesn't support your oppinion? Lets put both oppinions in the article and lets readers decide which one makes more sense. You can refer to the any sources, but most reliable evidences come from archeological findings. I am not going to delete your view, I am just going to put sources and evidence supporting Turkic origin. Beginning of the article says Sakas were Iranian, what I am saying is this is at least debatable. I just read Bulgars page and even there someone said Bulgarians were Iranian originally?? Lets devide the origion section into Iranian, Turkic and other sub-sections and put related resiurces into respective sub-section, instead of saying Sakas were Iranian at the beginning. Even if You don't accept Turkic origin opinion, let others express it in the article. I prefer You do that since You made more effort on the article, and You are more experinced in editting. If You don't, I'll try to do it.
What Ali has done (deleting some things) is what all Persian and Kurdish people do to make a so-called history for themselves by supports and helps of some religious Zionist Jewish people. They even did not know Kourosh(Cyrus) until 100 years ago and they found him by Jewish history. Who destroyed the oldest civilisation of the world, which belonged to Arabs and Assyrians? Of course Kourosh, he did worse than Changiz khan at that moment, but since he is their ancestor he becomes "the Great" and Changiz becomes "wild one". One thing that is so important here is: "Before Turkish Ghaznavis there were not even one famous Persian person or Persian scientist or even Persian Poet and etc". Even in time of Achaemenians, no one can claim there was one famous Persian like Greeks' Plato (Aflatoon), Aristotle (Arastu) and Socrates (Sukrat). They are getting used to change the history by deleting its bad parts in their points of view. The Persian people and also the Kurdish people delete Turkish and Assyrians History to prove their so-called civilisations, but how they could change the history parallel to each other without any interfering? God knows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.15.17.141 ( talk) 18:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Sakas are considered Iranian by mainstream western scholars and there is a dialect called Khotanese Sakas [8] [9]. The "Turkic origin" opinion does not hold in the academic world and there is no need for subsection, when something is not academically supported in the modern academic world and in modern universities. Find support of it in a mainstream source like Encyclopedia Britannica and then there could be a section. Besides the fact that there is a language called Khotanese Saka, which is academically recognized [ [10]]. As per Cyrus the Great, he was known way before 100 years ago. Biruni mentions him and many aspects of Shahnameh show similar stories to Cyrus. As per destruction, sorry there was no Arab civilization in Babylon and all sources also say Babylon was flourishing under Achaemenids. So do not make up history although pan-Turanian theories are ripe and we do get people making some claims, but all of them are from a few select countries and they do it for nationalistic reasons. Before the Turkish Gahznavids, there was famous Persian poets: Rudaki, Persian scientist: Razi. As per famous people under the Achaemenids, there is enough evidence that Greeks also studied Persian scientists. The discussion is about Sakas, so bring any modern, up-to-date, Western academic source or else stop the Soap Boxing. We already know there is a lot of cranky pan-Turkists from some places and some of them even mix up Pourpirar crankism with their pan-Turanism. But in Wikipedia, there is no place for cranky theories. -- alidoostzadeh ( talk) 18:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Now that copyediting has made it clearer what the content of Invasion of India by Scythian Tribes is, I suggest that that it be deleted and relevant sections be moved to Indo-scythians, Scythians, Sakas, Scythia, etc.
The content of Invasion of India by Scythian Tribes itself substantially duplicates these articles and I can't see any reason for keeping it as a standalone wikipedia entry.-- Saganaki- 11:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
why the second paragraph has a link to ashkenazi jews article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.155.118.161 ( talk) 10:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC).
Good point! I wonder why too - so I have added "citation needed" tags in two places to see if anyone can come up with proper references for these claims. The info was added by people from the IP addresses: 86.140.13.205 on 28 Aug, 2006 and 81.153.122.48 on 30 Aug, 2006. Hope this is some help. John Hill 23:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
This section of the article is so seriously in need of work that it's ridiculous. It appears to be very remedial work, no citations, no capitalizations, obscure wording, and a complete lack of logical consistency, (citation), historical support, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlon ( talk • contribs) 16:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The banality of some of the discussions and the ethnocentrism of the discussant who try to uselessly connect historic people to this or that modern "ethnicity" is really what drags the quality of Wikipedia down.
Anyway, there is a statement in the article: "Ashkanian means "Sakan people" or "Saka descendants". An Arab source names Sagsar as the place from which Ashkanians originated."
I beg to differ. Yes, the Arsacid family (or as they are called here, the Ashkanian) were originally from the Parni tribe of the Dahae Confederacy. Dahae were a nomadic Central Asian tribal confederacy of Iranian and probably Saka origin (might have been the Saka Haumawarga of the Bistun Inscription of Darius). However, the word "Ashkan" (the root of "Ashkanian") is a patronymic of "Ashk" which is a new Persian version of Parthian "arshak" (Gk. Arsaces), the name of the founder of the dynasty. Now, get on with your baseless discussions...-- Khodadad ( talk) 22:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)