Saint Thomas Anglicans has been listed as one of the
Philosophy and religion good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: March 3, 2021. ( Reviewed version). |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Saint Thomas Anglicans article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article was nominated for deletion on 14 June 2019. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The Church of South India is not just an Anglican Church; it is a united Protestant Church, being the result of a merger between Anglicans, Methodists, and Reformed Christians. This article has been retitled accordingly. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam Talk 05:03, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
If this article is about Saint Thomas Christians who belong to the Church of South India, then "Saint Thomas Protestants" or "Saint Thomas Protestant Christians" is the appropriate page title. As I have pointed out above, the Church of South India is not just an Anglican Church; it is a united Protestant Church, being the result of a merger between Anglicans, Methodists, and Reformed Christians. It is for this reason that I have boldly moved the article. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam Talk 07:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Article will also be restored to its prior state, as there has been no consensus demonstrated for a change in scope — Amakuru ( talk) 15:18, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Saint Thomas Anglicans →
Saint Thomas Protestants – Should this article be retitled
Saint Thomas Protestants as the
Church of South India is a
united Protestant Church made up of Anglicans, Methodists, and Reformed Christians, not just Anglican Christians?
Anupam
Talk 08:11, 25 June 2020 (UTC) —Relisting.
Steel1943 (
talk)
18:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
Endogamy is also practised by the Syrian Protestants. They are now united into one church called the Church of South India, which comprises also all Protestant groups converted by European missionaries.
References
User:Tharian7 recently removed a reference from the article that characterized the Church of South India as a united Protestant Church and replaced it with the unsourced description of "autonomous South Indian province of the Anglican Communion". While this is partially true, it is not accurate because the Church of South India was created as a united Protestant Church after Anglicans, Methodists and the Reformed merged together in India. The website of the World Methodist Council, of which the Church of South India is a member, thus states:
The Church of South India is a United Church that came into existence on 27th September 1947. The churches that came into the union were the Anglican Church, the Methodist Church, and the South India United Church (which was a union in 1904 of the Presbyterian and Congregational Churches). Later the Basel Mission Churches in South India also joined the Union. The Church of South India is the first example in church history of the union of Episcopal and non-Episcopal churches, and is thus one of the early pioneers of the ecumenical movement. ... The CSI strives to maintain fellowship with all those branches of the church which the uniting churches enjoyed fellowship before the union. We are members of the World Methodist Council, the Anglican Consultative Council, the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, the Council for World Mission, and the Association of Missions and Churches in South West Germany.
In light of this fact, the sourced description should not be changed without consensus. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam Talk 19:12, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Response: First and foremost, we should not loose sight of the fact that this article is not about the Church of South India, but about a Saint Thomas Christian minority who embraced Anglicanism in the 19th century. The article begins with the legendary mission of St. Thomas to India, through the origins of this small community, to their present state as members of the Church of South India. For any additional details about the CSI, links are already provided to the Origin, Formation and Ecumenical relations sections of the Church of South India article, in the appropriate places. Those links for more information have been there since the creation of this article. The formation of the CSI is also been neatly explained with sources with particular emphasis on this community's role in it. Considering the community's history and due to the fact that they constitute the Anglican slice of the CSI, mentioning the union in the introduction causes unnecessary clutter and prevents the article from providing a coherent narrative.
A discussion about the nature of the CSI is not within the scope of this article. But as circumstances necessitate it, I'll explain. There are enough and more sources in the article about that, as for the rest of its content. As Anglicanism itself is a reformed tradition, except for the continuity of apostolic succession within the historic episcopate which Anglicans insisted upon, there weren't any serious challenges. The union was strictly based on the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral laid down by Anglicans. The article neatly explains how the merger was realised by incorporating all uniting denominations into the Anglican fold, by way of Anglican bishops ordaining all chosen candidates from non-episcopal traditions to bishoprics, on the condition that all future ordinations would be exclusively episcopal. Thus the continuity of the united church within the historic episcopate was ensured. Minimal changes to liturgy was also made so that it would be acceptable to everyone. The sources make it clear that the CSI, right from the very beginning fulfilled all the minimal requirements of an Anglican church. A period of 30 years was allowed to achieve a natural organic union. The pre-union Anglican dioceses were always under the old Anglican bishops and clergy and the new church was free to commune with larger communions of its constituents. The only Anglican condition was that no further unions must be carried out at the expense of episcopacy or violation of the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral. In 1972, the Anglican Communion assessed the CSI and concluded that the problem of non-ordained pre-union ministers has been balanced by new ministers ordained by post -union episcopal bishops. The CSI leadership unanimously recognised the symbolic headship of the Archbishop of Canterbury over them and since then has been a full fledged member of the Anglican communion. So the CSI is not just like any other united church, it is a United Anglican Church. Saint Thomas Anglicans did not cease to be Anglicans after the union. So the tile should not be changed.
The Encyclopedia of Christianity in page 687 specifically calls Saint Thomas Anglicans within the CSI as Anglican Syrians and in page 688 says this about the CSI; This church was considered a model for church union movements around the world, especially in its adoption of Anglican doctrine of episcopal succession, which it reconciled with the views of other denominations. [1]
The Religions of the World: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Beliefs and Practices in page 707 explains how Anglicans became the dominant body in the pre-union negotiations which accepted the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral. It says, The basis of the union was the Lambeth Quadrilateral, the historic statement of the bases of Anglican belief, which includes acknowledgement of the ancient Christian creeds. [2] The CSI is a united Anglican church.
The Encyclopedia of Protestantism in pages 28 and 29 says, Among the more interesting churches are the Church of South India and the Church of North India, both products of a merger of several Protestant churches, but still able to meet the minimal requirements to be considered Anglican. [3] The CSI is a united Anglican church.
The World Methodist Council source added by editor Anupam does not say a word about Anglican Syrian Christians and hence not very suitable for this article. Despite, me asking to achieve a page move and associated content addition through a formal move request from the very beginning, this user revered my edits twice. Now that user Redrose64 initiated the correct process, I dont wish talk anymore about all that.-- Tharian7 ( talk) 10:24, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
References
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: StraussInTheHouse ( talk · contribs) 12:30, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
A good article is—
Criteria | Notes | Result |
---|---|---|
(a) (prose) | 14:37, 1 March 2021 (UTC): well-written. | Pass |
(b) (MoS) | 14:37, 1 March 2021 (UTC): personally, I think the
sidebars stretch a bit too far down, especially considering the length of the article. It also causes formatting issues for floating images. However, as there isn't a
footer version of the sidebars and they're all relevant, I don't see much that can be done about it other than creating the footer templates as an alternative. Although not required per
MOS:ORDER, a {{
shortdesc}} would be beneficial.
MOS:SO and
MOS:BODY might be better satisfied with the amalgamation of sections 1 to 4 in a "History" section with subsections, but that is more subjective. 16:19, 3 March 2021 (UTC): compelling reasoning given for current structure, not all articles are the same. With regards to sidebar layouts, it is a personal preference and I'd be more than happy to assist future {{ navbar}} development for the sidebars if considered approriate. Passing 1b. |
Pass |
Criteria | Notes | Result |
---|---|---|
(a) (references) | 14:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC): WP:INCITE more than adequately satisfied with accepted referencing system. | Pass |
(b) (citations to reliable sources) | 14:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC): some of the sources after number 39 could do with a bit more independence but because of the numerous inline citations it doesn't cause a verifiability problem. | Pass |
(c) (original research) | 14:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC): no issues. | Pass |
(d) (copyvio and plagiarism) | 14:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC): not enough to be a
copyvio but the last paragraph of "British Period" is a bit too close to existing material. 16:05, 3 March 2021 (UTC): addressed and re-worded, passing 2d. |
Pass |
Notes | Result |
---|---|
14:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC): no issues. | Pass |
Notes | Result |
---|---|
12:40, 1 March 2021 (UTC): no maintenance tags or RMs since August. | Pass |
Criteria | Notes | Result |
---|---|---|
(a) (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales) | 12:40, 1 March 2021 (UTC): the two non-gallery images as items already in the public domain should be tagged with {{
PD-old}} as opposed to {{
PD-self}}. 16:07, 3 March 2021 (UTC): per update, all tags present and correct here and on Commons. Passing 6a. |
Pass |
(b) (appropriate use with suitable captions) | 12:40, 1 March 2021 (UTC): I think the gallery adds to the article, so no WP:IG concerns. After all Help:Pictures#Galleries exists for a reason. | Pass |
Saint Thomas Anglicans has been listed as one of the
Philosophy and religion good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: March 3, 2021. ( Reviewed version). |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Saint Thomas Anglicans article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article was nominated for deletion on 14 June 2019. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The Church of South India is not just an Anglican Church; it is a united Protestant Church, being the result of a merger between Anglicans, Methodists, and Reformed Christians. This article has been retitled accordingly. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam Talk 05:03, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
If this article is about Saint Thomas Christians who belong to the Church of South India, then "Saint Thomas Protestants" or "Saint Thomas Protestant Christians" is the appropriate page title. As I have pointed out above, the Church of South India is not just an Anglican Church; it is a united Protestant Church, being the result of a merger between Anglicans, Methodists, and Reformed Christians. It is for this reason that I have boldly moved the article. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam Talk 07:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Article will also be restored to its prior state, as there has been no consensus demonstrated for a change in scope — Amakuru ( talk) 15:18, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Saint Thomas Anglicans →
Saint Thomas Protestants – Should this article be retitled
Saint Thomas Protestants as the
Church of South India is a
united Protestant Church made up of Anglicans, Methodists, and Reformed Christians, not just Anglican Christians?
Anupam
Talk 08:11, 25 June 2020 (UTC) —Relisting.
Steel1943 (
talk)
18:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
Endogamy is also practised by the Syrian Protestants. They are now united into one church called the Church of South India, which comprises also all Protestant groups converted by European missionaries.
References
User:Tharian7 recently removed a reference from the article that characterized the Church of South India as a united Protestant Church and replaced it with the unsourced description of "autonomous South Indian province of the Anglican Communion". While this is partially true, it is not accurate because the Church of South India was created as a united Protestant Church after Anglicans, Methodists and the Reformed merged together in India. The website of the World Methodist Council, of which the Church of South India is a member, thus states:
The Church of South India is a United Church that came into existence on 27th September 1947. The churches that came into the union were the Anglican Church, the Methodist Church, and the South India United Church (which was a union in 1904 of the Presbyterian and Congregational Churches). Later the Basel Mission Churches in South India also joined the Union. The Church of South India is the first example in church history of the union of Episcopal and non-Episcopal churches, and is thus one of the early pioneers of the ecumenical movement. ... The CSI strives to maintain fellowship with all those branches of the church which the uniting churches enjoyed fellowship before the union. We are members of the World Methodist Council, the Anglican Consultative Council, the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, the Council for World Mission, and the Association of Missions and Churches in South West Germany.
In light of this fact, the sourced description should not be changed without consensus. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam Talk 19:12, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Response: First and foremost, we should not loose sight of the fact that this article is not about the Church of South India, but about a Saint Thomas Christian minority who embraced Anglicanism in the 19th century. The article begins with the legendary mission of St. Thomas to India, through the origins of this small community, to their present state as members of the Church of South India. For any additional details about the CSI, links are already provided to the Origin, Formation and Ecumenical relations sections of the Church of South India article, in the appropriate places. Those links for more information have been there since the creation of this article. The formation of the CSI is also been neatly explained with sources with particular emphasis on this community's role in it. Considering the community's history and due to the fact that they constitute the Anglican slice of the CSI, mentioning the union in the introduction causes unnecessary clutter and prevents the article from providing a coherent narrative.
A discussion about the nature of the CSI is not within the scope of this article. But as circumstances necessitate it, I'll explain. There are enough and more sources in the article about that, as for the rest of its content. As Anglicanism itself is a reformed tradition, except for the continuity of apostolic succession within the historic episcopate which Anglicans insisted upon, there weren't any serious challenges. The union was strictly based on the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral laid down by Anglicans. The article neatly explains how the merger was realised by incorporating all uniting denominations into the Anglican fold, by way of Anglican bishops ordaining all chosen candidates from non-episcopal traditions to bishoprics, on the condition that all future ordinations would be exclusively episcopal. Thus the continuity of the united church within the historic episcopate was ensured. Minimal changes to liturgy was also made so that it would be acceptable to everyone. The sources make it clear that the CSI, right from the very beginning fulfilled all the minimal requirements of an Anglican church. A period of 30 years was allowed to achieve a natural organic union. The pre-union Anglican dioceses were always under the old Anglican bishops and clergy and the new church was free to commune with larger communions of its constituents. The only Anglican condition was that no further unions must be carried out at the expense of episcopacy or violation of the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral. In 1972, the Anglican Communion assessed the CSI and concluded that the problem of non-ordained pre-union ministers has been balanced by new ministers ordained by post -union episcopal bishops. The CSI leadership unanimously recognised the symbolic headship of the Archbishop of Canterbury over them and since then has been a full fledged member of the Anglican communion. So the CSI is not just like any other united church, it is a United Anglican Church. Saint Thomas Anglicans did not cease to be Anglicans after the union. So the tile should not be changed.
The Encyclopedia of Christianity in page 687 specifically calls Saint Thomas Anglicans within the CSI as Anglican Syrians and in page 688 says this about the CSI; This church was considered a model for church union movements around the world, especially in its adoption of Anglican doctrine of episcopal succession, which it reconciled with the views of other denominations. [1]
The Religions of the World: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Beliefs and Practices in page 707 explains how Anglicans became the dominant body in the pre-union negotiations which accepted the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral. It says, The basis of the union was the Lambeth Quadrilateral, the historic statement of the bases of Anglican belief, which includes acknowledgement of the ancient Christian creeds. [2] The CSI is a united Anglican church.
The Encyclopedia of Protestantism in pages 28 and 29 says, Among the more interesting churches are the Church of South India and the Church of North India, both products of a merger of several Protestant churches, but still able to meet the minimal requirements to be considered Anglican. [3] The CSI is a united Anglican church.
The World Methodist Council source added by editor Anupam does not say a word about Anglican Syrian Christians and hence not very suitable for this article. Despite, me asking to achieve a page move and associated content addition through a formal move request from the very beginning, this user revered my edits twice. Now that user Redrose64 initiated the correct process, I dont wish talk anymore about all that.-- Tharian7 ( talk) 10:24, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
References
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: StraussInTheHouse ( talk · contribs) 12:30, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
A good article is—
Criteria | Notes | Result |
---|---|---|
(a) (prose) | 14:37, 1 March 2021 (UTC): well-written. | Pass |
(b) (MoS) | 14:37, 1 March 2021 (UTC): personally, I think the
sidebars stretch a bit too far down, especially considering the length of the article. It also causes formatting issues for floating images. However, as there isn't a
footer version of the sidebars and they're all relevant, I don't see much that can be done about it other than creating the footer templates as an alternative. Although not required per
MOS:ORDER, a {{
shortdesc}} would be beneficial.
MOS:SO and
MOS:BODY might be better satisfied with the amalgamation of sections 1 to 4 in a "History" section with subsections, but that is more subjective. 16:19, 3 March 2021 (UTC): compelling reasoning given for current structure, not all articles are the same. With regards to sidebar layouts, it is a personal preference and I'd be more than happy to assist future {{ navbar}} development for the sidebars if considered approriate. Passing 1b. |
Pass |
Criteria | Notes | Result |
---|---|---|
(a) (references) | 14:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC): WP:INCITE more than adequately satisfied with accepted referencing system. | Pass |
(b) (citations to reliable sources) | 14:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC): some of the sources after number 39 could do with a bit more independence but because of the numerous inline citations it doesn't cause a verifiability problem. | Pass |
(c) (original research) | 14:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC): no issues. | Pass |
(d) (copyvio and plagiarism) | 14:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC): not enough to be a
copyvio but the last paragraph of "British Period" is a bit too close to existing material. 16:05, 3 March 2021 (UTC): addressed and re-worded, passing 2d. |
Pass |
Notes | Result |
---|---|
14:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC): no issues. | Pass |
Notes | Result |
---|---|
12:40, 1 March 2021 (UTC): no maintenance tags or RMs since August. | Pass |
Criteria | Notes | Result |
---|---|---|
(a) (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales) | 12:40, 1 March 2021 (UTC): the two non-gallery images as items already in the public domain should be tagged with {{
PD-old}} as opposed to {{
PD-self}}. 16:07, 3 March 2021 (UTC): per update, all tags present and correct here and on Commons. Passing 6a. |
Pass |
(b) (appropriate use with suitable captions) | 12:40, 1 March 2021 (UTC): I think the gallery adds to the article, so no WP:IG concerns. After all Help:Pictures#Galleries exists for a reason. | Pass |