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Is there any way to fix the speciesbox so it doesn't list "Saint Bathans mammal" as the species name or binomial name since it is blatantly neither? @
FunkMonk:, would you consider taking a stab at it?--
Mr Fink (
talk)
16:43, 2 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Hurry up and force some paleontologist to give it a binomial name.
There isn't any way to make this display better. Undescribed species are one area where I think it is better to stick with manual taxoboxes rather than using speciesboxes. Manual taxoboxes allow more flexibility in italicization, and the binomial and species lines can be omitted. This particular case is especially messy since there isn't a genus; most of the articles Wikipedia has on undescribed taxa at least have a genus and a provisional species designation (e.g.
Haplochromis sp. 'Migori'). Not that I think we should have articles on undescribed taxa in the first place.
Plantdrew (
talk)
20:15, 2 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Sure, just erase an article extremely important in discussions of New Zealand's fauna (yes, very: nearly all Saint Bathans/Bannockburn Formation-related papers, ie. pretty much everything discussing pre-Pleistocene aotearoan fauna, mention this thing) and mammal evolution. Sure.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Falconfly (
talk •
contribs)
@
Falconfly: Do not put words in our mouths. You are aware that none of us made that suggestion, right? Right? Or, perhaps you could explain to us how you interpreted "How do we fix the speciesbox so it does not say Binomial - Saint Bathans Mammal? as "Delete this important article!"?--
Mr Fink (
talk)
02:43, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
No one mentioned deletion. Though I'd like to see all these papers you mention cited in the article. Only two of the citations in the article have to do with the fossil species, the other three are aboud other flora and fauna found in the same formation. --
Nessie (
talk)
02:46, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The reason that they thought this was a possible delete is that
over at wikiproject dinosaurs there was a consensus that all of the articles on unnamed dinosaur specimens should be deleted and mover over to
List of informally named dinosaurs, given that this is also unnamed, it isn't unreasonable to conclude that it might be deleted also. I personally strongly disagree with the decision taken over at wikiproject dinosaurs but there should be consistency across wikipedia for this sort of thing
Hemiauchenia (
talk)
13:24, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Thank you for disagreeing with that idiotic policy. If nothing else we can reason that unnamed dinosaurs almost always belong to already known clades, while the Saint Bathans mammal is an impossibly unique taxon.
@
NessieVL:: See the papers for Proapteryx, for the turtles, for the mekosuchine crocodile, for the herons and several other things. They all casually mention this mammal as an example of the "weirdness" of this faunal assemblage. Not to mention the fact that the phylogenetic test employed here is still used by nearly all Mesozoic mammalogist studies which likewise cite it (see for instance all the researchgate citations of this), albeit much more refined since then.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Falconfly (
talk •
contribs)
The paper being cited for phylogenetic methods has no bearing whatsoever on whether the specimen described is notable. Pretty much every paper I can find on the Saint Bathans fauna simply lists that a non-bat mammal is present, alongside the other fauna, without indicating that it is "weird" or notable. If you have any examples of papers which discuss the significance of this mammal further, beyond simply acknowledging that it exists, feel free to provide them. If there isn't anything important to say about this specimen other than merely indicating the presence of this group of mammals in this fauna, I don't see why this specimen merits its own page rather than just being mentioned on the Saint Bathans fauna page.
Ornithopsis (
talk)
15:19, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Ah yes, revolutionising phylogenetic testing and studies on New Zealand's fauna and mammalian evolution is 'not notable' now. Sometimes I wonder how this wiki stays afloat. And yes, in case you're wondering I do have this article saved in case spite wins over reason.
Seen it here folks. Pages for various sex acts are uncontroversial in Wikipedia, but there's no place for an landmark in mammal and biogeography studies.
I did not suggest removing all references to this taxon from Wikipedia, nor do I necessarily think that this page needs to be deleted. I mean that it is worth considering the option of having this information on the Saint Bathans Fauna page itself, rather than as a short page of its own. You also have not provided citations of any papers which discuss this taxon further than including it in list of animals present in the Saint Bathans fauna, aside from the original paper, and so you have yet to support your claim that many papers mention it "as an example of the 'weirdness' of this faunal assemblage" or that it is "extremely important in discussions of New Zealand's fauna." Also, did you know that you can sign your posts on talk pages by writing four tildes?
Ornithopsis (
talk)
19:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
I specifically said "aside from the original paper," because I wanted you to support your claim that it is "extremely important in discussions of New Zealand's fauna." I agree that the specimen is important, and have never claimed otherwise. I would, however, like to see what other editors have to say about whether this subject is better addressed in the pages for the Saint Bathans fauna and Theriiformes. As it currently stands, the longest section in this article is a recap of the SB fauna page, and the rest of the article would be streamlined if moved to that page, so the SB mammal probably would take up no more than a quarter of the SB fauna page.
Ornithopsis (
talk)
20:24, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Hence why I am linking to the citations.
I apologize for misinterpreting why you were linking that page, I didn't see that it also had a list of papers which cite the paper in question. However, the vast majority of those citations appear to simply state "...and a terrestrial mammal (Worthy et al. 2006)," or similar, while listing members of the SB fauna, so I still am skeptical of your claim that it's considered "extremely important in discussions." Stating the specific papers which contain these discussions you mention would be helpful.
Ornithopsis (
talk)
21:48, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Given the sheer amount of citations, its clear that its status as an iconic member of the Saint Bathans fauna is well established and that the study was revolutionary in mammal phylogeny studies given that how a third of the citations go.
I guess that's a solution, but it risks making this look like an illegitimate article.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Falconfly (
talk •
contribs)
This article is within the scope of WikiProject New Zealand, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
New Zealand and
New Zealand-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New ZealandWikipedia:WikiProject New ZealandTemplate:WikiProject New ZealandNew Zealand articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Mammals, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of mammal-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MammalsWikipedia:WikiProject MammalsTemplate:WikiProject Mammalsmammal articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palaeontology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
palaeontology-related topics and create a standardized, informative, comprehensive and easy-to-use resource on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PalaeontologyWikipedia:WikiProject PalaeontologyTemplate:WikiProject PalaeontologyPalaeontology articles
Is there any way to fix the speciesbox so it doesn't list "Saint Bathans mammal" as the species name or binomial name since it is blatantly neither? @
FunkMonk:, would you consider taking a stab at it?--
Mr Fink (
talk)
16:43, 2 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Hurry up and force some paleontologist to give it a binomial name.
There isn't any way to make this display better. Undescribed species are one area where I think it is better to stick with manual taxoboxes rather than using speciesboxes. Manual taxoboxes allow more flexibility in italicization, and the binomial and species lines can be omitted. This particular case is especially messy since there isn't a genus; most of the articles Wikipedia has on undescribed taxa at least have a genus and a provisional species designation (e.g.
Haplochromis sp. 'Migori'). Not that I think we should have articles on undescribed taxa in the first place.
Plantdrew (
talk)
20:15, 2 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Sure, just erase an article extremely important in discussions of New Zealand's fauna (yes, very: nearly all Saint Bathans/Bannockburn Formation-related papers, ie. pretty much everything discussing pre-Pleistocene aotearoan fauna, mention this thing) and mammal evolution. Sure.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Falconfly (
talk •
contribs)
@
Falconfly: Do not put words in our mouths. You are aware that none of us made that suggestion, right? Right? Or, perhaps you could explain to us how you interpreted "How do we fix the speciesbox so it does not say Binomial - Saint Bathans Mammal? as "Delete this important article!"?--
Mr Fink (
talk)
02:43, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
No one mentioned deletion. Though I'd like to see all these papers you mention cited in the article. Only two of the citations in the article have to do with the fossil species, the other three are aboud other flora and fauna found in the same formation. --
Nessie (
talk)
02:46, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The reason that they thought this was a possible delete is that
over at wikiproject dinosaurs there was a consensus that all of the articles on unnamed dinosaur specimens should be deleted and mover over to
List of informally named dinosaurs, given that this is also unnamed, it isn't unreasonable to conclude that it might be deleted also. I personally strongly disagree with the decision taken over at wikiproject dinosaurs but there should be consistency across wikipedia for this sort of thing
Hemiauchenia (
talk)
13:24, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Thank you for disagreeing with that idiotic policy. If nothing else we can reason that unnamed dinosaurs almost always belong to already known clades, while the Saint Bathans mammal is an impossibly unique taxon.
@
NessieVL:: See the papers for Proapteryx, for the turtles, for the mekosuchine crocodile, for the herons and several other things. They all casually mention this mammal as an example of the "weirdness" of this faunal assemblage. Not to mention the fact that the phylogenetic test employed here is still used by nearly all Mesozoic mammalogist studies which likewise cite it (see for instance all the researchgate citations of this), albeit much more refined since then.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Falconfly (
talk •
contribs)
The paper being cited for phylogenetic methods has no bearing whatsoever on whether the specimen described is notable. Pretty much every paper I can find on the Saint Bathans fauna simply lists that a non-bat mammal is present, alongside the other fauna, without indicating that it is "weird" or notable. If you have any examples of papers which discuss the significance of this mammal further, beyond simply acknowledging that it exists, feel free to provide them. If there isn't anything important to say about this specimen other than merely indicating the presence of this group of mammals in this fauna, I don't see why this specimen merits its own page rather than just being mentioned on the Saint Bathans fauna page.
Ornithopsis (
talk)
15:19, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Ah yes, revolutionising phylogenetic testing and studies on New Zealand's fauna and mammalian evolution is 'not notable' now. Sometimes I wonder how this wiki stays afloat. And yes, in case you're wondering I do have this article saved in case spite wins over reason.
Seen it here folks. Pages for various sex acts are uncontroversial in Wikipedia, but there's no place for an landmark in mammal and biogeography studies.
I did not suggest removing all references to this taxon from Wikipedia, nor do I necessarily think that this page needs to be deleted. I mean that it is worth considering the option of having this information on the Saint Bathans Fauna page itself, rather than as a short page of its own. You also have not provided citations of any papers which discuss this taxon further than including it in list of animals present in the Saint Bathans fauna, aside from the original paper, and so you have yet to support your claim that many papers mention it "as an example of the 'weirdness' of this faunal assemblage" or that it is "extremely important in discussions of New Zealand's fauna." Also, did you know that you can sign your posts on talk pages by writing four tildes?
Ornithopsis (
talk)
19:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
I specifically said "aside from the original paper," because I wanted you to support your claim that it is "extremely important in discussions of New Zealand's fauna." I agree that the specimen is important, and have never claimed otherwise. I would, however, like to see what other editors have to say about whether this subject is better addressed in the pages for the Saint Bathans fauna and Theriiformes. As it currently stands, the longest section in this article is a recap of the SB fauna page, and the rest of the article would be streamlined if moved to that page, so the SB mammal probably would take up no more than a quarter of the SB fauna page.
Ornithopsis (
talk)
20:24, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Hence why I am linking to the citations.
I apologize for misinterpreting why you were linking that page, I didn't see that it also had a list of papers which cite the paper in question. However, the vast majority of those citations appear to simply state "...and a terrestrial mammal (Worthy et al. 2006)," or similar, while listing members of the SB fauna, so I still am skeptical of your claim that it's considered "extremely important in discussions." Stating the specific papers which contain these discussions you mention would be helpful.
Ornithopsis (
talk)
21:48, 3 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Given the sheer amount of citations, its clear that its status as an iconic member of the Saint Bathans fauna is well established and that the study was revolutionary in mammal phylogeny studies given that how a third of the citations go.
I guess that's a solution, but it risks making this look like an illegitimate article.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Falconfly (
talk •
contribs)