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Here is a catalog of the removal of critical links and text from the article over the past year, usually with no edit summary and sometimes with misleading edit summaries.
The reasons given for removing the "Religious Movements" article, in summaries and on this page include:
I believe that some editors here have a Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, that they are exhibiting Wikipedia:ownership, that they are not following the principles described in Wikipedia:Editing with a conflict of interest, and that they are not editing in good faith. Virtually every critical remark or website about this topic has been repeatedly removed. It is incumbent on the regular editors of this article to insure that it is NPOV, which requires including balanced criticisms. By systematically removing all they have made it impossible to to have an NPOV article. - Will Beback 03:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
These are weblinks, either sources or external links, that have been deleted, most repeatedly, from this article.
None of these are usable in any way? - Will Beback 07:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Sfacets 07:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
ok:
The only links from those above that seem reliable, would be the BBC radio program, the article from the Independant, and freewebtown.com/sahaja-yoga, but then again, it depends how you would use them, as External Links, or as sources? The last link for example is not admissible as a source for eg.
I think we have already been over why the http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/sahaja_yoga.html article isn't a relable source.
Have I missed any? Sfacets 20:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Sfacets 05:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Evening Standard - London July 18, 2001 - As I mentioned, this was being used inappropriately as a source(read up). According to WP:EL and WP:Reliable Sources, links should not be posted to websites containing original unverified research. http://members.tripod.com/toutsursahajayoga/origins.htm is exactly that.
Sfacets 06:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Sources of dubious reliability In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight.
in which sites like http://freewebtown.com/sahaja-yoga/ fail. So sources do need to be verified. Sfacets
Why are sources that we've agreed up on still being deleted? - Will Beback 23:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Please read Wikipedia:Valid_Sources, as discussed above, some do not comply. Please add to the discussion instead of adding unproductive content. Sfacets 05:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Also I couldn't find the discussion you were refring to, could you provide a link? Thanks Sfacets 07:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I have asked you time and time again to join the conversation. Maybe instead of all this aggressiveness you could help reach a NPOV article, as you claim your goal above is.
I have been on Wikipedia for almost 3 years now, and my edits show that I am not just here to push my POV, and that in fact I aim at creating dialogue between editors. All your edit history says is that you have targeted Sahaja Yoga related articles, and without joining into the discussion have arbitrarily asserted your POV.
Disruptive is when you tear apart an article which has taken the better part of a year to create in the matter of hours.
Sfacets 02:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
You guys go on and on and on. Try this instead: [47] WikiPossum 14:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Edits made without consulting other editors, and without participating in discussion are disrespectful of the time and effort editors have put into this article, and are generaly unconstructive, since without concensus reached (and how can concensus be reached without discussion?)edits are reverted to versions which had already either reached NPOV status, or were currently under discussion.
NovaSTL may complain about the "hour's work wasted" when I reverted to an earlier version, but that is nothing when compared to the combined efforts of all editors involved in editing this article being torn apart by one individual in a few edits. An example of this is the organisational stutus in different countries paragraph under the 'Sahaja Yoga International' heading, which took me days to find, verify and compile. This was removed without even mention in the edit summary. To me this shows total disregard for efforts supplied by other editors.
Sfacets 13:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2006-October/054949.html Sahajhist 22:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about the inclusion or exclusion of the 'New Religious Movements' article [48].
The dispute revolves around whether or not to add http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/sahaja_yoga.html as a source. The discussion (please refer to the above discussion(s) have proven unable to resolve the dispute, and newer editors have now chosen to step in an attempt to take matters into their own hands, circumventing discussion, despite multiple invitations to do so. Sfacets 02:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm an outsider. I'm willing to provide an outside opinion, but I'm having trouble understanding one thing. What do the proponents want to use this source to support? Is it being used to support a particular statement in the article, or do they just want to add it to the list of resources at the end of the article? HeBhagawan 04:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi HeBhagavan, appreciate the input. The source in question is being usd to justify the "Ex-members of the group, as well as academics, cite negative elements to the group such as a preoccupation with money, mind control tactics, and an "us vs. them" mentality which attempts to silence dissent." sentence in the introduction section. Sfacets 09:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Sfacets 22:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Everybody, Well this is actually a pretty close call. The University of Virginia as an institution certainly is a credible source. However, the website itself states the following as its criteria for inclusion:
This site makes the process of locating materials a lot easier. This site does not seek to build links to everything about new religions on the Internet, nor does it seek to provide comprehensive linkage to any specific group. Rather, it seeks to identify and make links to sites that can enhance learning. Without exception, it will include the official home page of the groups presented here. When a group's own home page is not comprehensive, unofficial pages, usually created by members of the group are presented. Comprehensiveness and unique features have been used as criteria for inclusion of unofficial home pages when many exist for a single group. (Members of the Hare Krishna movement, for example, have created over one hundred unofficial home pages). We also seek pages that can be described as informative and/or analytical. As of this writing, the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance (Formerly the Ontario Centre on Religious Tolerance) is among the most thoughtful and comprehensive sites on the WWW. OCRT, as the title suggests, also has a mission of promoting understanding and tolerance while reducing misinformation and religious hatred. These are goals to which we also subscribe You will find frequent links to OCRT from this site.
Moreover, the website says
Understanding the dynamics of cult and sect formation necessarily involves an examination of the Web sites of those who are, for theological or other reasons, opposed to specific new religious groups. Such sites don't exist for every group, but for some groups it is difficult to find information that has not been generated by anti-cultists. We present anti-cult sites without comment, other than to identify their character, leaving it to readers to assess the merits of the material.
There is yet another type of literature that can be characterized as counter-cult. The authors of these pages are not motivated by animus but, rather, their own theological convictions. The best of these sites aspire to accuracy and their products can be informative.
Finally, a word here regarding the accuracy of the text and the currency of information generated on this site (in contrast to materials to which we have built links). I would not consider myself to be an expert on more than a few of the groups that are presented here. I have no doubt made numerous factual errors. And everyone who has attempted to maintain a Web site with links knows that URLs are constantly changing, quickly making one's meticulous labor appear slovenly.
Thus, the website, though run by a scholarly institution, does not require that an article be unbiased or scholarly itself in order to qualify for inclusion. An article be simply something written by a member of the group/cult/religion. It can also be something written by an opponent of the group/cult/religion.
Here is my opinion, and it draws a fine distinction, so try to understand it:
The articles on this website cannot be cited to prove the truth of what they assert. However, the articles on this website CAN be cited to prove the existence of such articles themselves.
What does this mean? It means that the article can be cited to prove that "some have characterized Sahaja Yoga as a cult, alleging that its members are subjected to mind-control, etc."
However, you can't cite the article for a proposition like this one: "Sahaja Yoga is a cult and subjects its members to mind control."
Nor can you cite it to support a sentence like this: "Academics and former members allege that Sahaja yoga is a cult and subjects its members to mind control." The reason this second sentence is not permissible is that there is nothing on the website that I have found to verify the author of the articles. Therefore you don't know whether the people who wrote them are really ex-members, acadamics, or martians. They could be anybody. And the simple fact that their articles include citations does not necessarily make them credible unless their sources are independently verifiable (thus the citations to various emails are not verifiable). If you find their sources to be verifiable and reliable, I would advise citing directly to those sources rather than to the dubious article itself.
It seems that the people who write articles for this website are often partisans--either personally in favor of or against the organizations in question. So you can't take what they have to say as definitive. At most, you can use it to prove that some people say what they are saying--as evidenced by the fact that they are saying it in the article. I hope this is helpful and not too confusing. HeBhagawan 23:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the University of Virginia website the following [50] I corresponded both with Jeffrey Hadden and with Douglas Cowan about blatant factual errors on the website but they were not correct due to lack of time. Note that some peer reviewed religious studies magazine allow articles by students to be published who did participant participation or are (ex-)members. The reason for this is of course, to save the academic a lot of work: they do not have the time to be involved for months or years in a single religious group. Andries 20:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Having looked at the website, I agree with HeBhagawan - their articles can not be considered as scholarly, as a lot of the articles are written by undergraduates, basically at the level that we would think on Wikipedia as primary research. It is not possible to assess the notability and authority of the authors, so we can only use the work as suggested by HeBhagawan and as a valuable source of references/bibliography.
In particular the following is found in the mission statement section of the website [51]:
Finally, a word here regarding the accuracy of the text and the currency of information generated on this site (in contrast to materials to which we have built links). I would not consider myself to be an expert on more than a few of the groups that are presented here. I have no doubt made numerous factual errors. And everyone who has attempted to maintain a Web site with links knows that URLs are constantly changing, quickly making one's meticulous labor appear slovenly.
Early on in the development of this site my undergraduate students volunteered to assist with the creation of pages for specific groups. The comprehensiveness of this site owes much to their enthusiastic work. It is a product of their labor and is their site as much as it is mine. For each group covered here, they have developed brief profiles, links and a select bibliography of printed materials. Their work, like my own, will inevitably contain errors, significant URLs and publications will be missed, and new Web sites and publications will appear subsequently.
I sincerely seek counsel on how this site might be improved, as well as corrections where the information is wrong and additions when something that should be a part of this page has been missed. I welcome information about any and all groups.
Just a couple of caveats for those who might elect to communicate for other reasons. First, I am aware that some people hold passionately negative convictions about one or many religious groups. I respect their right to believe as they choose, but I have no interest in engaging in dialogue or debate with them. Second, I am not a theologian. If the information presented about the beliefs of a particular group is incorrect, I want to get it right. But I am not qualified to discern finer points of belief that are the subject of debate within most faith traditions.
This makes it clear that the main author themselves thinks that the information is not necessarily reliable, and the final caveat that the author is no a theologian is also illuminating.
Use the information but dont quote from it as fact - if you need the facts search for them in the references. Cheers Lethaniol 14:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
By request for comment I have examined some of the reliable source issues raised here, particularly starting from the two quotes provided by HeBhagawan from the
Religious Movements Homepage Project (RMHP). (It would be nice if HeBhagawan would return and edit in links to those quotes.)
• About HeBhagawan's conclusions, maybe s/he is assuming requirements that are greater than WP:RS actually requires. In particular, perhaps HeBhagawan misunderstands that some WP:RS validation is provided for referencing things like primary source personal testimony websites, when they are collected by a reliable source. The reliable source states facts about the primary source that can be relied on, such as the form 'X said Y about Z'. Quoting of personal web sites is not directly permitted in Wikipedia articles, but it is indirectly permitted when a reliable source has quoted or paraphrased them within a report. This seems to be hard for a lot of newer editors to understand, but the presumption is that a personal web site quote that has been filtered through a reliable source, becomes more reliable because more people have spent more time and effort in examining statements for reliability.
• The first quote (beginning "This site makes the process of locating materials a lot easier"), declares RMHP's intention toward reliability, in the bolded phrase "also has a mission of promoting understanding and tolerance while reducing misinformation and religious hatred" Attempting to reduce misinformation is a reliable source characteristic.
• The second quote (beginning "Understanding the dynamics of cult and sect formation",) states a policy of labeling oppositional references, in the bolded phrase "We present anti-cult sites without comment, other than to identify their character , leaving it to readers to assess the merits of the material." Reporting and labeling balanced POV's is a reliable source characteristic.
• The writer is apparently the late Professor Jeffery K. Hadden, who continues in the second quote, "I would not consider myself to be an expert on more than a few of the groups that are presented here. I have no doubt made numerous factual errors." This is a statement that doesn't encourage a feeling of reliability on the points of expertise and accuracy. However, Prof. Hadden is being modest, and he is certainly more expert than reporters and editors at the reliable source NYT.
• On the issue of expertise, WP:RS requires expertise in the field. "With David Bromley (Professor of Sociology at Virginia Commonwealth University) he [Hadden] edited a two-volume work entitled Handbook of Cults and Sects in America."
[52] This is a well-known reference textbook that unquestionably confirms Hadden's expertise in the field of cults and sects, which is a reliable source characteristic for the whole website.
• On the issue of accuracy, WP:RS requires a fact-checking process, but does not require that process to be identical to that used by reliable mass media. The following quote describes RMHP's fact-checking process:
RMHP does (or did) have a fact-checking policy, which is a reliable source characteristic. Furthermore, most or all bone fide universities have factual accuracy requirements required by the ethics of professorship. Seriously failing these requirements is a firing offense, even for tenured professors. (Anyone who doubts this should review the University of Colorado case, where Prof. Ward Churchill was found to have falsely reported a genocide not supported by his references, and is in process of being fired.
[53])
• The particular web article at issue is
RMHP's "Sahaja Yoga" written by Hadden's student Tamara L. Clark in the fall of 2000. According to the above quote, Ms. Clark was, by policy, supervised and her work followed up by Hadden, with subsequent feedback by the public in matters of accuracy. Prof. Hadden died in 2003, so that article had up to three years of vetting by Hadden and the public.
• I have unanswered questions about materials added after 2003. Beyond 2003, the website and the project seem to have only a little information, and the caretaker Douglas Cowan may have moved on, but I just don't know. Until these questions are answered, I would avoid WP:RS citing any articles dated after 2003 (or Hadden's exact date of death).
• I don't see a clear case for claiming that Religious Movements Homepage Project 2003-prior articles are not reliable sources in general. However, Prof. Hadden has constructively agreed that each student research is open to challenge on the basis of evidence of incorrect facts, which does not include mere opinion, preference, advocacy, dislike, or theological dispute. Hadden demurred from correspondence based on the latter. If there is a factual case against
RMHP's "Sahaja Yoga" in particular, I don't know what it is. I expect the RMHP opponents to either prove incorrect statements, or permit the page to be quoted in a fair context of proportionally balanced POVs.
[54]
Milo
11:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• "the work is not vetted for facts"
I think I recall posted agreement that RMHP's "Sahaja Yoga" was updated in 2001. Thus vetting did have a known eyeballs-on technical opportunity to occur. Prof. Hadden being obligated by the ethics of professorship, and lacking evidence to the contrary, we are to presume that he did vet the work.
• "only Peer review (ie experts in the field) is [a criterion for inclusion]."
Scientific journal peer review is the best end of an ok -> better -> best continuum for qualifying reliable sources. Quote:
" WP:RS #Evaluating reliability Reliability is a spectrum, and must be considered on a case-by-case basis. Typically peer reviewed publications are considered to be the most reliable, with established professional publications next."
Peer review is not the only criterion for inclusion as a reliable source. If that were true, a frequently used Wikipedia source, The New York Times, would not be a reliable source, since it is not a peer reviewed journal:
" WP:NOR #Reliable sources "In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by university presses; mainstream newspapers; and magazines and journals published by known publishing houses."
" WP:RS #Evaluating reliability
"... sources which, while not tangible, can be providers of reliable information in some cases, for example websites associated with reliable publishers."
The Religious Movements Homepage Project is a website associated with a reliable publisher, the University of Virginia.
• "Vetting by the public is not a criterion for inclusion,"
By which I think you mean that public vetting isn't prescribed or mentioned at all in Wikiguides related to reliable sources. Since (1) reliable source fact-checking is promoted as important, and (2) public vetting is a valid method of fact-checking (Wikipedia uses it), and (3) public vetting isn't excluded, then (4) public vetting is allowed per WP:BOLD.
In any case, public vetting is not the only RMHP fact check method. Prof. Hadden's expertise would cause him to check any fact that seemed libelous, didn't fit the context, or that was inconsistent with his decades of research. Also, he would closely check the work of any student that he knew from previous classwork to be error-prone.
• "input from biased sources is accepted (who are also not experts in the field)"
This is a normal part of reporting (NYT does this), and is irrelevant to the status of a reliable source. That's the whole point of man-in-the-street interviews by major media. The only critical requirement for reporting biased sources is proper labeling, and RMHP does that.
• "WP:RS recommends caution when dealing with false authority, and points out that one way of identifying such a source is "Websites that have numerous footnotes.""
I agree that it should be clarified, but apparently you misunderstood WP:RS #Beware false authority. You may have inferred it, but WP:RS doesn't imply that numerous footnotes identify false authority.
WP:RS #Beware false authority "Websites that have numerous footnotes may be entirely unreliable."
Sources with numerous footnotes may be entirely unreliable, they may be entirely reliable, or they may be something in between. A clearer way of making this statement is, 'numerous footnotes increase confidence but are insufficient to establish authority'. (Inversely, lack of footnotes does suspicion lack of authority, but likewise doesn't prove it.)
• "It shouldn't be up to RMHP opponents to disprove theories from a source which is an unreliable one."
I agree with that statement, but so far you haven't been able to demonstrate that RMHP is too unreliable to cite for Sahaja Yoga.
You keep quoting Prof. Hadden's disclaimer that "not every bit of information on the page is completely accurate," Ok, that's also true of the NYT, and journalism in general. What matters is whether the errors are significant enough on a case-by-case basis, to substantially affect judgment of reliability by editors. To decide that, editors will need to see a list of errors. (Never mind the stale web links, which would also be found in any year 2001 source.) In this case, the proponent editors of Sahaja Yoga are supposedly the content experts, yet have presented no substantive list of content errors at RMHP's "Sahaja Yoga". Without one, I see no practical reason to further consider Prof. Hadden's disclaimer in evaluating RMHP as a reliable source.
WP:RS #Evaluating reliability "Sources where there are multiple steps to publication, such as fact checking and editorial oversight, are more reliable, other things being equal, than those without these procedures."
RMHP is certainly not as reliable as a peer reviewed journal, but that's an excessively high standard for a minor belief system, especially considering that belief systems are inherently unscientific. Also, belief systems typically resist peer reviewed scientific studies that tend to unmask belief-based illusions (like TM's "flying" claim).
RMHP and NYT are hard to compare for reliability. They both have fact-checking procedures, but they are quite different in time frame. RMHP has only a one-editor oversight, so maybe it's not as reliable as NYT in that way. But Prof. Hadden has more expertise, and his students have more subject-area training than NYT does.
The best RMHP comparison seems to be to a reliable source standard reference book, since Prof. Hadden did write one (two volume "Handbook of Cults and Sects in America", JAI Press). RMHP was Prof. Hadden's university website, and by examining the chain of academic authority, the website clearly benefited from his book-authoring expertise. RMHP may or may not be as reliable as his expert book, but it meets or exceeds all the threshold requirements for a reliable source that I can find in the Wikiguides.
RMHP may not be perfect in theory, and it may not have a future without Prof. Hadden, but I conclude that in Wikipedia practice, it's good enough to 2003 at least, to hold its existing reliable source consensus. Milo 16:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
This link was removed:
With this summary:
May I ask what info is inaccurate? - Will Beback 22:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Sfacets 04:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I have emailed Douglas E. Cowan of The Religious Movements Homepage Project at The University of Virginia alerting him to the discussion here about the The Religious Movements Homepage Project as a source and asking for comment. Paul foord 12:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Douglas E. Cowan replied, he does not wish to enter the discussion here. Paul foord 01:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
One of the reasons for this article being accused of being 'unbalanced' is because three other, previously separate, articles have been merged into it. Sahajhist 00:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this applies here. Sfacets 01:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)"If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited)minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in someancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; andregardless of whether you can prove it or not".
I agree with Will Beback's overall analysis, and supporting comments by others. Too many critic sources have been removed to have an NPOV article, indeed to the point that the text is currently a puff piece, save for one sentence referring to ex-member cult claims. Assuming good faith claimed by the proponent editors, the current article imbalance probably resulted from editing motivated by a strong unconscious bias — a bias characteristic of
true believers in any secular or religious cause.
I've read the reasons stated for removal of sources. Some resulted from misunderstandings or misapplication of Wikiguides.
The most marked misunderstanding is the notion that editors must somehow verify the facts and sources as written by reliable sources, rather than simply verifying that the reliable sources are correctly quoted and paraphrased. The burden of proof of claimed wrong facts is on the challengers to find better (or at least competing) reliable sources.
A misapplication I think I saw in one post, was that "no original research" somehow applies to non-Wikipedia sources. If that was true, no reporter could do interviews, and no reliable source could quote personal web sites.
• I think the place to begin restoration of critical sources is with
RMHP's "Sahaja Yoga". I've read it. In § "Request for Comment Religious Movements source", I've detailed its reliability characteristics, and it does meet WP:RS requirements. In accord with the Religious Movements Homepage Project mission, their article is overall balanced in a way that I think promotes tolerance of Sahaja Yoga's detailed beliefs. Its criticism section may somewhat underplay details of the ex-members' POV, but at least it does summarize the apostate complaints, and Wikipedia should do the same.
There's no need to dwell on the criticisms, but for NPOV the significant ones must be exposed. In the to-be-created WP article criticism section, (typically "Criticisms of Sahaja Yoga"), each class of criticism should be briefly summarized and connected to a reference link that supplies more details for those interested.
The criticism section needs additional sources to supply some details that RMHP omits in favor of an external link. This would include a newspaper style summary of the SY police incident at Albert Hall. That is valid police journalism that WP has a general consensus to report, and an example of why global citizens demand that their governments engage in NRM/cult-watching. If SY has their own account of the incident, that too should be summarized as their competing POV.
If the proponent editors and other editors can consense on no other reliable source for criticisms of beliefs and practices (guru claims to be God omniscient, requests valuable gifts in parallel with promoted free services, etc.), then RMHP should become the default reliable source. The proponent editors will probably object, but I think RMHP is the best NPOV consensus deal that they are likely to get.
If they refuse to accept RMHP by default, or any other equivalent criticism sources, then it appears to me that this article is an intractable-POV candidate for AfD. But to avoid that unsatisfying POV solution... NPOV consensus, and good faith efforts with recognition of unconscious bias, should be given a chance to work.
Milo
04:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Sfacets 11:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
What justification is being used to consider this a relaible site: http://www.webspawner.com/users/letdvdau2/index.html ? It has no named author, no date, no sources, and is clearly self-published. - Will Beback · † · 21:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Is it too much to ask that Will Beback actually reads and understands an article he's citing before making changes to the text of this Wikipedia entry? You have misunderstood the final para of the quoted article. Sahajhist 23:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
In reference to the 2006-11-27T01:32:48 edit:
• "which could lead to "So-called miraculous cures" The source text says "could explain" (past) not 'lead to' (future) — the latter is not a paraphrase and is literally misleading. (Btw, "So-called" should be lower case.)
• "Sahaja Yoga meditation could result in a 70% rise in beta-endorphins after meditations" Though acceptable as a source about themselves (SY) within reason, LET is not a reliable source, so we can't take their word for the science part, and need to verify and reference these facts at the primary source. Unfortunately they have cited the reference so vaguely that it's untraceable to the "70%" key fact. Mishra [RK] et al. (1993) "Effect of meditation on plasma beta-endorphins in humans" is not on the web. An abstract of his talk at the University of Arizona is available, with a known date but unknown year (might be derived from date/day-of-week)
(#P8), and it lacks a publication reference. The other key facts are mentioned, but a "70%" figure increase is not mentioned
(#257). AFAIK, UofA is a reliable source for referencing this Sahaja yoga experiment with the outcome of a significant but unspecified rise of plasma beta-endorphins. This research is not listed at Mishra's web site
[59]. Unfortunately, the "70%" will have to be deleted until someone can provide a verifiable published citation.
• Most importantly, all the current references to curing cancer are violations of
WP:RS #Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence, as further informed in WP:RS by the credibility footnote to
WP:OR #Notes].
• "Sahaja Yoga advertises that it has cured many patients of "high blood pressure, asthma, epilepsy, diabetes, cancer, etc." This reference to cancer either has to be deleted, or at least two reliable sources have to be additionally cited that understandably explain the credible evidence supporting this exceptional claim. I see where the proponents were going with this, and there does seem to be a rational basis for the endorphin connection to cancer cells in vitro, but it appears to be OR (type A + B = C) to editorially make an in-vivo cure connection to yoga without reliable sources.
• "They further state that 'cancer can only be cured through Sahaja Yoga'" This statement is a bogosity, and is potentially life-threatening to sick and gullible cancer patients. It's either got to be deleted or, if higher WP authority approves, maybe carry a suffixed and tagged disclaimer that it's an irrational religious belief. Alternatively, it could be restated and moved to the criticism section — based on the common knowledge of many people who know someone that has been cured of cancer (5 yr+ remission) by conventional medicine.
Milo
09:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Astrocrank creates the Green Cheese Moon page. Editors write, 'Astrocrank provably wrote in 2006 that the moon is made of green cheese.' Oops, Astrocrank's OR is in the article!
The editorial tradition (no Wilkiguide that I can find) for reporting unusual formal beliefs is not available to Sahaja Yoga. According to
Sahajayoga.org Q&A Sahaja Yoga is not religious belief. Constructively, neither are their cures non-religious belief.
On the contrary, Sahajayoga.org makes scientific claims for its treatments
(Benefits of Meditation) "Scientific research done with illnesses such as asthma, epilepsy and high blood pressure has proven that Sahaja Yoga is effective in improving physical and psychological well-being". The current article markedly promotes SY's scientific method: "Some of these claims have been scientifically confirmed", followed by a substantial number of scientific research cites.
Therefore, since WP editors' belief-reporting tradition is irrelevant:
• The claim of curing cancer is covered by
WP:Exceptional ("claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view in the relevant academic community"). Without two reliable sources, it gets deleted.
• The claim that "'cancer can only be cured through Sahaja Yoga'", it is contextually a crank scientific claim to be deleted. (Unlike
Time Cube there is no notable crank science controversy to override
WP:Exceptional.)
Unlike their doubtful but uncertain claim that they can cure cancer, their claim that no other cures for cancer exist is patently false. U.S. President
Grover Cleveland was cured of cancer by conventional surgery in 1893. His excised malignant tumor is on public display. "Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information." (Wales, 2006
[60])
Milo
15:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
"However I disagree with the assertion that SY is not a religion" There's nothing to disagree with, because I didn't make that assertion. I wrote "Sahaja Yoga is not religious belief," because that's a paraphrase of what they said in the FAQ. Their religious claim exists in the next sentence, but they say it's not religious belief.
• Without mentioning religion, you said "We report the unusual beliefs of many groups" (meaning slack off on the
WP:Exceptional guide for mystical religious claims). Ok, the issue according to you is "beliefs", which in this context formally means mystical holdings that are not known to be facts.
• There are approximately two kinds of mystical beliefs, religious (God/ess) and non-religious (superstition). I showed (1) they claim no religious beliefs (for example, no Christian-Science-like prayer cures), and (2) that their cures are also not non-religious beliefs (because they claim scientific method cures). Therefore, using your reasoning, they are not eligible to have their unusual beliefs reported in regard to cures, because they claim no beliefs in regard to cures.
• Here, Sahaja Yoga is making science cure claims, which by definition is outside any religious domain that they claim in the FAQ. Therefore, they do not get any slack from the burden of complying with
WP:Exceptional when they make a science crank claim, or getting deletion of their non-notable and patently false statement about scientific medicine.
• As for other religions, faithful RCC Jesuit scientists have to and do meet the same no-beliefs standards for making science claims.
Milo
22:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
"There's nothing patently false about reporting that they claim to cure cancer. " Not that one, the other cancer statement.
• I'll leave this: "Sahaja Yoga advertises that it has cured many patients of "high blood pressure, asthma, epilepsy, diabetes, cancer, etc."
• I'll delete this: "They further state that 'cancer can only be cured through Sahaja Yoga'". Then I'll watch for them to revert it now or restore it later, and file the link for use in AfD, if it comes to that. Your list of deletes would be the star exhibit though.
• "we could add a line saying that there is no evidence to support their claims" Sure, that would (temporarily?) help at the margins, but I won't be satisfied unless there's a permanent section (standardly titled) Criticisms of Sahaja Yoga like 'everybody else' has.
• My experience here with SY editing is what Camden Benares called "consciousness shrinking". In the past few week both SSB and SY launched attacks on reliable sources used at LOGRTAC. I think SSB lost their raucus debate to an arbitrator before I got there, so I just did closing pitcher for a shut out with a chuckle line. The SY debate was quieter, but not worthwhile except for blowing back the RMHP challenge at LOGRTAC. SY just do what they please, no matter what is said, or how the Wikiguides read. If they win an AfD, they could become Ascended Masters who thumb their noses at everyone, like certain nationalist groups I've heard rumors about. But then AfD is a double or nothing bet against the toughest Shiva crowd at Wikipedia...
Milo
10:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is " Dharma" linked in "See also"? If there's a connection is would be better to explain it here in the section on "beliefs". - Will Beback · † · 00:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Dharma is linked in the see also section because it pertains to the practice of Sahaja Yoga. Dharma is not a denominational practice, or even a practice, rather a way of life. (Read the Dharma article). Sfacets 01:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
A universal tradition has room for all faiths and all religious and spiritual practices regardless of the time or country of their origin. Yet it places religious and spiritual teachings in their appropriate place relative to the ultimate goal of Self-realization, to which secondary practices are subordinated. Sanatan Dharma also recognizes that the greater portion of human religious aspirations has always been unknown, undefined and outside of any institutionalized belief
Sfacets 12:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Dharma is a fundamental part of Sahaja Yoga and is mentioned many times by its founder. So yes, it is mentioned in texts. Sfacets 05:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
What is "fundamentaly flawed" about saying that "Dharma is a fundamental part of Sahaja Yoga"? Were you incorrect to write that? Are there no sources available? - Will Beback · † · 09:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Could Will Beback provide the full quote from the references he gave (Sudhir Kakar)? Thanks. Sfacets 00:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I should also be able to answer more of your questions then, Thanks. Sfacets 02:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This page is getting long and takes awhile to load. Can someone competent please transfer the first half to an archive page? Thanks. Sahajhist 20:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
This section needs to reflect the changing nature of this movement. The influence of Shri Mataji on individual members is clearly different now in the 2000s than in earlier decades, and especially post 2003. This has not yet been reflected in published critiques. And this is the major reason why I have argued against use of the 2000-1 student essay from the Univ of Virginia website. Sahajhist 22:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Agreed... up to a point. There are as many, probably more, testimonials of a positive nature, eg. [68] [69] [70] [71] as there are of a negative nature - which is not to discount or ignore past events. Sahajhist 08:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Barrett, David V. The New Believers 2001 p. 297-298
Andries 18:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Factual comments on above quote:
1. the Shudy Camps property was sold c.1990. The 'Italian castle' (at Cabella Ligure) has been transferred to a foundation administered by the World Council, as has Shri Mataji's house in New Jersey, USA.
[72]
2. Shri Mataji's husband, Sir C.P.Srivastava has repeatedly indicated in recent years that he fully supports Sahaja Yoga, eg.
[73]
The 'expensive properties' accusation is a myth propagated by disgruntled former members.
Sahajhist
01:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
User:Sahajist removed the followin sentence with the edit summary "malicious misinterpretation"
Why is this is a misinterpretation? And why is this alleged misinterpretation malicious? I thought the interpretation is accurate.
Andries 08:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Sahajist, are you sure? Look up the definition. "Malicious" is a serious charge to make against another editor without clear and persuasive evidence. One can be a severe critic, an intractable opponent, or just wrong, without ever being malicious. Milo 15:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I had a quick look at the source, and could find no mention of high sugar content being an essential part of the treatment, perhaps what Sahajhist meant was that the source was being mis-quoted. Sfacets 17:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The Liver Diet is a serious proposal, containing a number of parameters wider than just white sugar and white rice, and has been shown to work. And before anyone asks, no I dont know of a scientific study. If Andries cares to write a balanced and appropriate summary of this diet then I'll be happy to withdraw my initial comment. Sahajhist 21:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Ive had a thorough read through the diet sheets and can find no mention that a high sugar content is beneficial, what is suggested is that cane sugar is the 'food of the liver' but it does not state that it is the only thing that you should eat and in fact mentions many other items. The subtitle of the section reffering to sugar is 'cooling for the liver, and recommended for intake' not you must take vast quantitites of cane sugar and rice. As suggested in the preamble to the actual diet, the concept of a diet to detox the liver is an old one and in past years very similar versions to the diet that Shri Mataji suggested in the mid 1970s are now in common use in the US, UK and Australia see the book The Liver Cleansing Diet: Love Your Liver and Live Longer by Sandra Cabot. Shri Mataji has suggested that cane sugar is beneficial for the liver and in recent years there have been several completely independant research studies carried out that partially back up this suggestion. For example in May of 2006 a paper was published in Phytotherapy Research (M.Motob et al Volume 20 issue 5 pages 359-363) with the conclusion that sugar cane extract has an immunostimulating effect on chickens and reduces liver damage in experimental mice. -- Willia 12:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
You will see that i have added in that chocolate etc are considered to be heating to the liver if taken in excess rather than simply stating that they are harmful. -- Willia 13:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I have re-added the image of the portrait of the band of which I am the copyright holder. Sfacets 11:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
No, you will have to prove that I didn't create the image. Stop being disruptive.
Sfacets
09:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, the insistance by Will Beback for Sfacets to account for the creation of the graphics seem to be verging on the personal attack. Why does Will Beback insist on knowing the time of creation? Does it really make a difference to their validity? -- Willia 18:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Here is a catalog of the removal of critical links and text from the article over the past year, usually with no edit summary and sometimes with misleading edit summaries.
The reasons given for removing the "Religious Movements" article, in summaries and on this page include:
I believe that some editors here have a Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, that they are exhibiting Wikipedia:ownership, that they are not following the principles described in Wikipedia:Editing with a conflict of interest, and that they are not editing in good faith. Virtually every critical remark or website about this topic has been repeatedly removed. It is incumbent on the regular editors of this article to insure that it is NPOV, which requires including balanced criticisms. By systematically removing all they have made it impossible to to have an NPOV article. - Will Beback 03:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
These are weblinks, either sources or external links, that have been deleted, most repeatedly, from this article.
None of these are usable in any way? - Will Beback 07:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Sfacets 07:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
ok:
The only links from those above that seem reliable, would be the BBC radio program, the article from the Independant, and freewebtown.com/sahaja-yoga, but then again, it depends how you would use them, as External Links, or as sources? The last link for example is not admissible as a source for eg.
I think we have already been over why the http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/sahaja_yoga.html article isn't a relable source.
Have I missed any? Sfacets 20:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Sfacets 05:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Evening Standard - London July 18, 2001 - As I mentioned, this was being used inappropriately as a source(read up). According to WP:EL and WP:Reliable Sources, links should not be posted to websites containing original unverified research. http://members.tripod.com/toutsursahajayoga/origins.htm is exactly that.
Sfacets 06:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Sources of dubious reliability In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight.
in which sites like http://freewebtown.com/sahaja-yoga/ fail. So sources do need to be verified. Sfacets
Why are sources that we've agreed up on still being deleted? - Will Beback 23:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Please read Wikipedia:Valid_Sources, as discussed above, some do not comply. Please add to the discussion instead of adding unproductive content. Sfacets 05:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Also I couldn't find the discussion you were refring to, could you provide a link? Thanks Sfacets 07:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I have asked you time and time again to join the conversation. Maybe instead of all this aggressiveness you could help reach a NPOV article, as you claim your goal above is.
I have been on Wikipedia for almost 3 years now, and my edits show that I am not just here to push my POV, and that in fact I aim at creating dialogue between editors. All your edit history says is that you have targeted Sahaja Yoga related articles, and without joining into the discussion have arbitrarily asserted your POV.
Disruptive is when you tear apart an article which has taken the better part of a year to create in the matter of hours.
Sfacets 02:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
You guys go on and on and on. Try this instead: [47] WikiPossum 14:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Edits made without consulting other editors, and without participating in discussion are disrespectful of the time and effort editors have put into this article, and are generaly unconstructive, since without concensus reached (and how can concensus be reached without discussion?)edits are reverted to versions which had already either reached NPOV status, or were currently under discussion.
NovaSTL may complain about the "hour's work wasted" when I reverted to an earlier version, but that is nothing when compared to the combined efforts of all editors involved in editing this article being torn apart by one individual in a few edits. An example of this is the organisational stutus in different countries paragraph under the 'Sahaja Yoga International' heading, which took me days to find, verify and compile. This was removed without even mention in the edit summary. To me this shows total disregard for efforts supplied by other editors.
Sfacets 13:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2006-October/054949.html Sahajhist 22:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about the inclusion or exclusion of the 'New Religious Movements' article [48].
The dispute revolves around whether or not to add http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/sahaja_yoga.html as a source. The discussion (please refer to the above discussion(s) have proven unable to resolve the dispute, and newer editors have now chosen to step in an attempt to take matters into their own hands, circumventing discussion, despite multiple invitations to do so. Sfacets 02:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm an outsider. I'm willing to provide an outside opinion, but I'm having trouble understanding one thing. What do the proponents want to use this source to support? Is it being used to support a particular statement in the article, or do they just want to add it to the list of resources at the end of the article? HeBhagawan 04:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi HeBhagavan, appreciate the input. The source in question is being usd to justify the "Ex-members of the group, as well as academics, cite negative elements to the group such as a preoccupation with money, mind control tactics, and an "us vs. them" mentality which attempts to silence dissent." sentence in the introduction section. Sfacets 09:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Sfacets 22:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Everybody, Well this is actually a pretty close call. The University of Virginia as an institution certainly is a credible source. However, the website itself states the following as its criteria for inclusion:
This site makes the process of locating materials a lot easier. This site does not seek to build links to everything about new religions on the Internet, nor does it seek to provide comprehensive linkage to any specific group. Rather, it seeks to identify and make links to sites that can enhance learning. Without exception, it will include the official home page of the groups presented here. When a group's own home page is not comprehensive, unofficial pages, usually created by members of the group are presented. Comprehensiveness and unique features have been used as criteria for inclusion of unofficial home pages when many exist for a single group. (Members of the Hare Krishna movement, for example, have created over one hundred unofficial home pages). We also seek pages that can be described as informative and/or analytical. As of this writing, the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance (Formerly the Ontario Centre on Religious Tolerance) is among the most thoughtful and comprehensive sites on the WWW. OCRT, as the title suggests, also has a mission of promoting understanding and tolerance while reducing misinformation and religious hatred. These are goals to which we also subscribe You will find frequent links to OCRT from this site.
Moreover, the website says
Understanding the dynamics of cult and sect formation necessarily involves an examination of the Web sites of those who are, for theological or other reasons, opposed to specific new religious groups. Such sites don't exist for every group, but for some groups it is difficult to find information that has not been generated by anti-cultists. We present anti-cult sites without comment, other than to identify their character, leaving it to readers to assess the merits of the material.
There is yet another type of literature that can be characterized as counter-cult. The authors of these pages are not motivated by animus but, rather, their own theological convictions. The best of these sites aspire to accuracy and their products can be informative.
Finally, a word here regarding the accuracy of the text and the currency of information generated on this site (in contrast to materials to which we have built links). I would not consider myself to be an expert on more than a few of the groups that are presented here. I have no doubt made numerous factual errors. And everyone who has attempted to maintain a Web site with links knows that URLs are constantly changing, quickly making one's meticulous labor appear slovenly.
Thus, the website, though run by a scholarly institution, does not require that an article be unbiased or scholarly itself in order to qualify for inclusion. An article be simply something written by a member of the group/cult/religion. It can also be something written by an opponent of the group/cult/religion.
Here is my opinion, and it draws a fine distinction, so try to understand it:
The articles on this website cannot be cited to prove the truth of what they assert. However, the articles on this website CAN be cited to prove the existence of such articles themselves.
What does this mean? It means that the article can be cited to prove that "some have characterized Sahaja Yoga as a cult, alleging that its members are subjected to mind-control, etc."
However, you can't cite the article for a proposition like this one: "Sahaja Yoga is a cult and subjects its members to mind control."
Nor can you cite it to support a sentence like this: "Academics and former members allege that Sahaja yoga is a cult and subjects its members to mind control." The reason this second sentence is not permissible is that there is nothing on the website that I have found to verify the author of the articles. Therefore you don't know whether the people who wrote them are really ex-members, acadamics, or martians. They could be anybody. And the simple fact that their articles include citations does not necessarily make them credible unless their sources are independently verifiable (thus the citations to various emails are not verifiable). If you find their sources to be verifiable and reliable, I would advise citing directly to those sources rather than to the dubious article itself.
It seems that the people who write articles for this website are often partisans--either personally in favor of or against the organizations in question. So you can't take what they have to say as definitive. At most, you can use it to prove that some people say what they are saying--as evidenced by the fact that they are saying it in the article. I hope this is helpful and not too confusing. HeBhagawan 23:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the University of Virginia website the following [50] I corresponded both with Jeffrey Hadden and with Douglas Cowan about blatant factual errors on the website but they were not correct due to lack of time. Note that some peer reviewed religious studies magazine allow articles by students to be published who did participant participation or are (ex-)members. The reason for this is of course, to save the academic a lot of work: they do not have the time to be involved for months or years in a single religious group. Andries 20:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Having looked at the website, I agree with HeBhagawan - their articles can not be considered as scholarly, as a lot of the articles are written by undergraduates, basically at the level that we would think on Wikipedia as primary research. It is not possible to assess the notability and authority of the authors, so we can only use the work as suggested by HeBhagawan and as a valuable source of references/bibliography.
In particular the following is found in the mission statement section of the website [51]:
Finally, a word here regarding the accuracy of the text and the currency of information generated on this site (in contrast to materials to which we have built links). I would not consider myself to be an expert on more than a few of the groups that are presented here. I have no doubt made numerous factual errors. And everyone who has attempted to maintain a Web site with links knows that URLs are constantly changing, quickly making one's meticulous labor appear slovenly.
Early on in the development of this site my undergraduate students volunteered to assist with the creation of pages for specific groups. The comprehensiveness of this site owes much to their enthusiastic work. It is a product of their labor and is their site as much as it is mine. For each group covered here, they have developed brief profiles, links and a select bibliography of printed materials. Their work, like my own, will inevitably contain errors, significant URLs and publications will be missed, and new Web sites and publications will appear subsequently.
I sincerely seek counsel on how this site might be improved, as well as corrections where the information is wrong and additions when something that should be a part of this page has been missed. I welcome information about any and all groups.
Just a couple of caveats for those who might elect to communicate for other reasons. First, I am aware that some people hold passionately negative convictions about one or many religious groups. I respect their right to believe as they choose, but I have no interest in engaging in dialogue or debate with them. Second, I am not a theologian. If the information presented about the beliefs of a particular group is incorrect, I want to get it right. But I am not qualified to discern finer points of belief that are the subject of debate within most faith traditions.
This makes it clear that the main author themselves thinks that the information is not necessarily reliable, and the final caveat that the author is no a theologian is also illuminating.
Use the information but dont quote from it as fact - if you need the facts search for them in the references. Cheers Lethaniol 14:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
By request for comment I have examined some of the reliable source issues raised here, particularly starting from the two quotes provided by HeBhagawan from the
Religious Movements Homepage Project (RMHP). (It would be nice if HeBhagawan would return and edit in links to those quotes.)
• About HeBhagawan's conclusions, maybe s/he is assuming requirements that are greater than WP:RS actually requires. In particular, perhaps HeBhagawan misunderstands that some WP:RS validation is provided for referencing things like primary source personal testimony websites, when they are collected by a reliable source. The reliable source states facts about the primary source that can be relied on, such as the form 'X said Y about Z'. Quoting of personal web sites is not directly permitted in Wikipedia articles, but it is indirectly permitted when a reliable source has quoted or paraphrased them within a report. This seems to be hard for a lot of newer editors to understand, but the presumption is that a personal web site quote that has been filtered through a reliable source, becomes more reliable because more people have spent more time and effort in examining statements for reliability.
• The first quote (beginning "This site makes the process of locating materials a lot easier"), declares RMHP's intention toward reliability, in the bolded phrase "also has a mission of promoting understanding and tolerance while reducing misinformation and religious hatred" Attempting to reduce misinformation is a reliable source characteristic.
• The second quote (beginning "Understanding the dynamics of cult and sect formation",) states a policy of labeling oppositional references, in the bolded phrase "We present anti-cult sites without comment, other than to identify their character , leaving it to readers to assess the merits of the material." Reporting and labeling balanced POV's is a reliable source characteristic.
• The writer is apparently the late Professor Jeffery K. Hadden, who continues in the second quote, "I would not consider myself to be an expert on more than a few of the groups that are presented here. I have no doubt made numerous factual errors." This is a statement that doesn't encourage a feeling of reliability on the points of expertise and accuracy. However, Prof. Hadden is being modest, and he is certainly more expert than reporters and editors at the reliable source NYT.
• On the issue of expertise, WP:RS requires expertise in the field. "With David Bromley (Professor of Sociology at Virginia Commonwealth University) he [Hadden] edited a two-volume work entitled Handbook of Cults and Sects in America."
[52] This is a well-known reference textbook that unquestionably confirms Hadden's expertise in the field of cults and sects, which is a reliable source characteristic for the whole website.
• On the issue of accuracy, WP:RS requires a fact-checking process, but does not require that process to be identical to that used by reliable mass media. The following quote describes RMHP's fact-checking process:
RMHP does (or did) have a fact-checking policy, which is a reliable source characteristic. Furthermore, most or all bone fide universities have factual accuracy requirements required by the ethics of professorship. Seriously failing these requirements is a firing offense, even for tenured professors. (Anyone who doubts this should review the University of Colorado case, where Prof. Ward Churchill was found to have falsely reported a genocide not supported by his references, and is in process of being fired.
[53])
• The particular web article at issue is
RMHP's "Sahaja Yoga" written by Hadden's student Tamara L. Clark in the fall of 2000. According to the above quote, Ms. Clark was, by policy, supervised and her work followed up by Hadden, with subsequent feedback by the public in matters of accuracy. Prof. Hadden died in 2003, so that article had up to three years of vetting by Hadden and the public.
• I have unanswered questions about materials added after 2003. Beyond 2003, the website and the project seem to have only a little information, and the caretaker Douglas Cowan may have moved on, but I just don't know. Until these questions are answered, I would avoid WP:RS citing any articles dated after 2003 (or Hadden's exact date of death).
• I don't see a clear case for claiming that Religious Movements Homepage Project 2003-prior articles are not reliable sources in general. However, Prof. Hadden has constructively agreed that each student research is open to challenge on the basis of evidence of incorrect facts, which does not include mere opinion, preference, advocacy, dislike, or theological dispute. Hadden demurred from correspondence based on the latter. If there is a factual case against
RMHP's "Sahaja Yoga" in particular, I don't know what it is. I expect the RMHP opponents to either prove incorrect statements, or permit the page to be quoted in a fair context of proportionally balanced POVs.
[54]
Milo
11:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• "the work is not vetted for facts"
I think I recall posted agreement that RMHP's "Sahaja Yoga" was updated in 2001. Thus vetting did have a known eyeballs-on technical opportunity to occur. Prof. Hadden being obligated by the ethics of professorship, and lacking evidence to the contrary, we are to presume that he did vet the work.
• "only Peer review (ie experts in the field) is [a criterion for inclusion]."
Scientific journal peer review is the best end of an ok -> better -> best continuum for qualifying reliable sources. Quote:
" WP:RS #Evaluating reliability Reliability is a spectrum, and must be considered on a case-by-case basis. Typically peer reviewed publications are considered to be the most reliable, with established professional publications next."
Peer review is not the only criterion for inclusion as a reliable source. If that were true, a frequently used Wikipedia source, The New York Times, would not be a reliable source, since it is not a peer reviewed journal:
" WP:NOR #Reliable sources "In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by university presses; mainstream newspapers; and magazines and journals published by known publishing houses."
" WP:RS #Evaluating reliability
"... sources which, while not tangible, can be providers of reliable information in some cases, for example websites associated with reliable publishers."
The Religious Movements Homepage Project is a website associated with a reliable publisher, the University of Virginia.
• "Vetting by the public is not a criterion for inclusion,"
By which I think you mean that public vetting isn't prescribed or mentioned at all in Wikiguides related to reliable sources. Since (1) reliable source fact-checking is promoted as important, and (2) public vetting is a valid method of fact-checking (Wikipedia uses it), and (3) public vetting isn't excluded, then (4) public vetting is allowed per WP:BOLD.
In any case, public vetting is not the only RMHP fact check method. Prof. Hadden's expertise would cause him to check any fact that seemed libelous, didn't fit the context, or that was inconsistent with his decades of research. Also, he would closely check the work of any student that he knew from previous classwork to be error-prone.
• "input from biased sources is accepted (who are also not experts in the field)"
This is a normal part of reporting (NYT does this), and is irrelevant to the status of a reliable source. That's the whole point of man-in-the-street interviews by major media. The only critical requirement for reporting biased sources is proper labeling, and RMHP does that.
• "WP:RS recommends caution when dealing with false authority, and points out that one way of identifying such a source is "Websites that have numerous footnotes.""
I agree that it should be clarified, but apparently you misunderstood WP:RS #Beware false authority. You may have inferred it, but WP:RS doesn't imply that numerous footnotes identify false authority.
WP:RS #Beware false authority "Websites that have numerous footnotes may be entirely unreliable."
Sources with numerous footnotes may be entirely unreliable, they may be entirely reliable, or they may be something in between. A clearer way of making this statement is, 'numerous footnotes increase confidence but are insufficient to establish authority'. (Inversely, lack of footnotes does suspicion lack of authority, but likewise doesn't prove it.)
• "It shouldn't be up to RMHP opponents to disprove theories from a source which is an unreliable one."
I agree with that statement, but so far you haven't been able to demonstrate that RMHP is too unreliable to cite for Sahaja Yoga.
You keep quoting Prof. Hadden's disclaimer that "not every bit of information on the page is completely accurate," Ok, that's also true of the NYT, and journalism in general. What matters is whether the errors are significant enough on a case-by-case basis, to substantially affect judgment of reliability by editors. To decide that, editors will need to see a list of errors. (Never mind the stale web links, which would also be found in any year 2001 source.) In this case, the proponent editors of Sahaja Yoga are supposedly the content experts, yet have presented no substantive list of content errors at RMHP's "Sahaja Yoga". Without one, I see no practical reason to further consider Prof. Hadden's disclaimer in evaluating RMHP as a reliable source.
WP:RS #Evaluating reliability "Sources where there are multiple steps to publication, such as fact checking and editorial oversight, are more reliable, other things being equal, than those without these procedures."
RMHP is certainly not as reliable as a peer reviewed journal, but that's an excessively high standard for a minor belief system, especially considering that belief systems are inherently unscientific. Also, belief systems typically resist peer reviewed scientific studies that tend to unmask belief-based illusions (like TM's "flying" claim).
RMHP and NYT are hard to compare for reliability. They both have fact-checking procedures, but they are quite different in time frame. RMHP has only a one-editor oversight, so maybe it's not as reliable as NYT in that way. But Prof. Hadden has more expertise, and his students have more subject-area training than NYT does.
The best RMHP comparison seems to be to a reliable source standard reference book, since Prof. Hadden did write one (two volume "Handbook of Cults and Sects in America", JAI Press). RMHP was Prof. Hadden's university website, and by examining the chain of academic authority, the website clearly benefited from his book-authoring expertise. RMHP may or may not be as reliable as his expert book, but it meets or exceeds all the threshold requirements for a reliable source that I can find in the Wikiguides.
RMHP may not be perfect in theory, and it may not have a future without Prof. Hadden, but I conclude that in Wikipedia practice, it's good enough to 2003 at least, to hold its existing reliable source consensus. Milo 16:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
This link was removed:
With this summary:
May I ask what info is inaccurate? - Will Beback 22:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Sfacets 04:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I have emailed Douglas E. Cowan of The Religious Movements Homepage Project at The University of Virginia alerting him to the discussion here about the The Religious Movements Homepage Project as a source and asking for comment. Paul foord 12:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Douglas E. Cowan replied, he does not wish to enter the discussion here. Paul foord 01:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
One of the reasons for this article being accused of being 'unbalanced' is because three other, previously separate, articles have been merged into it. Sahajhist 00:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this applies here. Sfacets 01:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)"If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited)minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in someancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; andregardless of whether you can prove it or not".
I agree with Will Beback's overall analysis, and supporting comments by others. Too many critic sources have been removed to have an NPOV article, indeed to the point that the text is currently a puff piece, save for one sentence referring to ex-member cult claims. Assuming good faith claimed by the proponent editors, the current article imbalance probably resulted from editing motivated by a strong unconscious bias — a bias characteristic of
true believers in any secular or religious cause.
I've read the reasons stated for removal of sources. Some resulted from misunderstandings or misapplication of Wikiguides.
The most marked misunderstanding is the notion that editors must somehow verify the facts and sources as written by reliable sources, rather than simply verifying that the reliable sources are correctly quoted and paraphrased. The burden of proof of claimed wrong facts is on the challengers to find better (or at least competing) reliable sources.
A misapplication I think I saw in one post, was that "no original research" somehow applies to non-Wikipedia sources. If that was true, no reporter could do interviews, and no reliable source could quote personal web sites.
• I think the place to begin restoration of critical sources is with
RMHP's "Sahaja Yoga". I've read it. In § "Request for Comment Religious Movements source", I've detailed its reliability characteristics, and it does meet WP:RS requirements. In accord with the Religious Movements Homepage Project mission, their article is overall balanced in a way that I think promotes tolerance of Sahaja Yoga's detailed beliefs. Its criticism section may somewhat underplay details of the ex-members' POV, but at least it does summarize the apostate complaints, and Wikipedia should do the same.
There's no need to dwell on the criticisms, but for NPOV the significant ones must be exposed. In the to-be-created WP article criticism section, (typically "Criticisms of Sahaja Yoga"), each class of criticism should be briefly summarized and connected to a reference link that supplies more details for those interested.
The criticism section needs additional sources to supply some details that RMHP omits in favor of an external link. This would include a newspaper style summary of the SY police incident at Albert Hall. That is valid police journalism that WP has a general consensus to report, and an example of why global citizens demand that their governments engage in NRM/cult-watching. If SY has their own account of the incident, that too should be summarized as their competing POV.
If the proponent editors and other editors can consense on no other reliable source for criticisms of beliefs and practices (guru claims to be God omniscient, requests valuable gifts in parallel with promoted free services, etc.), then RMHP should become the default reliable source. The proponent editors will probably object, but I think RMHP is the best NPOV consensus deal that they are likely to get.
If they refuse to accept RMHP by default, or any other equivalent criticism sources, then it appears to me that this article is an intractable-POV candidate for AfD. But to avoid that unsatisfying POV solution... NPOV consensus, and good faith efforts with recognition of unconscious bias, should be given a chance to work.
Milo
04:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Sfacets 11:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
What justification is being used to consider this a relaible site: http://www.webspawner.com/users/letdvdau2/index.html ? It has no named author, no date, no sources, and is clearly self-published. - Will Beback · † · 21:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Is it too much to ask that Will Beback actually reads and understands an article he's citing before making changes to the text of this Wikipedia entry? You have misunderstood the final para of the quoted article. Sahajhist 23:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
In reference to the 2006-11-27T01:32:48 edit:
• "which could lead to "So-called miraculous cures" The source text says "could explain" (past) not 'lead to' (future) — the latter is not a paraphrase and is literally misleading. (Btw, "So-called" should be lower case.)
• "Sahaja Yoga meditation could result in a 70% rise in beta-endorphins after meditations" Though acceptable as a source about themselves (SY) within reason, LET is not a reliable source, so we can't take their word for the science part, and need to verify and reference these facts at the primary source. Unfortunately they have cited the reference so vaguely that it's untraceable to the "70%" key fact. Mishra [RK] et al. (1993) "Effect of meditation on plasma beta-endorphins in humans" is not on the web. An abstract of his talk at the University of Arizona is available, with a known date but unknown year (might be derived from date/day-of-week)
(#P8), and it lacks a publication reference. The other key facts are mentioned, but a "70%" figure increase is not mentioned
(#257). AFAIK, UofA is a reliable source for referencing this Sahaja yoga experiment with the outcome of a significant but unspecified rise of plasma beta-endorphins. This research is not listed at Mishra's web site
[59]. Unfortunately, the "70%" will have to be deleted until someone can provide a verifiable published citation.
• Most importantly, all the current references to curing cancer are violations of
WP:RS #Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence, as further informed in WP:RS by the credibility footnote to
WP:OR #Notes].
• "Sahaja Yoga advertises that it has cured many patients of "high blood pressure, asthma, epilepsy, diabetes, cancer, etc." This reference to cancer either has to be deleted, or at least two reliable sources have to be additionally cited that understandably explain the credible evidence supporting this exceptional claim. I see where the proponents were going with this, and there does seem to be a rational basis for the endorphin connection to cancer cells in vitro, but it appears to be OR (type A + B = C) to editorially make an in-vivo cure connection to yoga without reliable sources.
• "They further state that 'cancer can only be cured through Sahaja Yoga'" This statement is a bogosity, and is potentially life-threatening to sick and gullible cancer patients. It's either got to be deleted or, if higher WP authority approves, maybe carry a suffixed and tagged disclaimer that it's an irrational religious belief. Alternatively, it could be restated and moved to the criticism section — based on the common knowledge of many people who know someone that has been cured of cancer (5 yr+ remission) by conventional medicine.
Milo
09:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Astrocrank creates the Green Cheese Moon page. Editors write, 'Astrocrank provably wrote in 2006 that the moon is made of green cheese.' Oops, Astrocrank's OR is in the article!
The editorial tradition (no Wilkiguide that I can find) for reporting unusual formal beliefs is not available to Sahaja Yoga. According to
Sahajayoga.org Q&A Sahaja Yoga is not religious belief. Constructively, neither are their cures non-religious belief.
On the contrary, Sahajayoga.org makes scientific claims for its treatments
(Benefits of Meditation) "Scientific research done with illnesses such as asthma, epilepsy and high blood pressure has proven that Sahaja Yoga is effective in improving physical and psychological well-being". The current article markedly promotes SY's scientific method: "Some of these claims have been scientifically confirmed", followed by a substantial number of scientific research cites.
Therefore, since WP editors' belief-reporting tradition is irrelevant:
• The claim of curing cancer is covered by
WP:Exceptional ("claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view in the relevant academic community"). Without two reliable sources, it gets deleted.
• The claim that "'cancer can only be cured through Sahaja Yoga'", it is contextually a crank scientific claim to be deleted. (Unlike
Time Cube there is no notable crank science controversy to override
WP:Exceptional.)
Unlike their doubtful but uncertain claim that they can cure cancer, their claim that no other cures for cancer exist is patently false. U.S. President
Grover Cleveland was cured of cancer by conventional surgery in 1893. His excised malignant tumor is on public display. "Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information." (Wales, 2006
[60])
Milo
15:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
"However I disagree with the assertion that SY is not a religion" There's nothing to disagree with, because I didn't make that assertion. I wrote "Sahaja Yoga is not religious belief," because that's a paraphrase of what they said in the FAQ. Their religious claim exists in the next sentence, but they say it's not religious belief.
• Without mentioning religion, you said "We report the unusual beliefs of many groups" (meaning slack off on the
WP:Exceptional guide for mystical religious claims). Ok, the issue according to you is "beliefs", which in this context formally means mystical holdings that are not known to be facts.
• There are approximately two kinds of mystical beliefs, religious (God/ess) and non-religious (superstition). I showed (1) they claim no religious beliefs (for example, no Christian-Science-like prayer cures), and (2) that their cures are also not non-religious beliefs (because they claim scientific method cures). Therefore, using your reasoning, they are not eligible to have their unusual beliefs reported in regard to cures, because they claim no beliefs in regard to cures.
• Here, Sahaja Yoga is making science cure claims, which by definition is outside any religious domain that they claim in the FAQ. Therefore, they do not get any slack from the burden of complying with
WP:Exceptional when they make a science crank claim, or getting deletion of their non-notable and patently false statement about scientific medicine.
• As for other religions, faithful RCC Jesuit scientists have to and do meet the same no-beliefs standards for making science claims.
Milo
22:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
"There's nothing patently false about reporting that they claim to cure cancer. " Not that one, the other cancer statement.
• I'll leave this: "Sahaja Yoga advertises that it has cured many patients of "high blood pressure, asthma, epilepsy, diabetes, cancer, etc."
• I'll delete this: "They further state that 'cancer can only be cured through Sahaja Yoga'". Then I'll watch for them to revert it now or restore it later, and file the link for use in AfD, if it comes to that. Your list of deletes would be the star exhibit though.
• "we could add a line saying that there is no evidence to support their claims" Sure, that would (temporarily?) help at the margins, but I won't be satisfied unless there's a permanent section (standardly titled) Criticisms of Sahaja Yoga like 'everybody else' has.
• My experience here with SY editing is what Camden Benares called "consciousness shrinking". In the past few week both SSB and SY launched attacks on reliable sources used at LOGRTAC. I think SSB lost their raucus debate to an arbitrator before I got there, so I just did closing pitcher for a shut out with a chuckle line. The SY debate was quieter, but not worthwhile except for blowing back the RMHP challenge at LOGRTAC. SY just do what they please, no matter what is said, or how the Wikiguides read. If they win an AfD, they could become Ascended Masters who thumb their noses at everyone, like certain nationalist groups I've heard rumors about. But then AfD is a double or nothing bet against the toughest Shiva crowd at Wikipedia...
Milo
10:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is " Dharma" linked in "See also"? If there's a connection is would be better to explain it here in the section on "beliefs". - Will Beback · † · 00:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Dharma is linked in the see also section because it pertains to the practice of Sahaja Yoga. Dharma is not a denominational practice, or even a practice, rather a way of life. (Read the Dharma article). Sfacets 01:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
A universal tradition has room for all faiths and all religious and spiritual practices regardless of the time or country of their origin. Yet it places religious and spiritual teachings in their appropriate place relative to the ultimate goal of Self-realization, to which secondary practices are subordinated. Sanatan Dharma also recognizes that the greater portion of human religious aspirations has always been unknown, undefined and outside of any institutionalized belief
Sfacets 12:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Dharma is a fundamental part of Sahaja Yoga and is mentioned many times by its founder. So yes, it is mentioned in texts. Sfacets 05:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
What is "fundamentaly flawed" about saying that "Dharma is a fundamental part of Sahaja Yoga"? Were you incorrect to write that? Are there no sources available? - Will Beback · † · 09:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Could Will Beback provide the full quote from the references he gave (Sudhir Kakar)? Thanks. Sfacets 00:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I should also be able to answer more of your questions then, Thanks. Sfacets 02:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This page is getting long and takes awhile to load. Can someone competent please transfer the first half to an archive page? Thanks. Sahajhist 20:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
This section needs to reflect the changing nature of this movement. The influence of Shri Mataji on individual members is clearly different now in the 2000s than in earlier decades, and especially post 2003. This has not yet been reflected in published critiques. And this is the major reason why I have argued against use of the 2000-1 student essay from the Univ of Virginia website. Sahajhist 22:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Agreed... up to a point. There are as many, probably more, testimonials of a positive nature, eg. [68] [69] [70] [71] as there are of a negative nature - which is not to discount or ignore past events. Sahajhist 08:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Barrett, David V. The New Believers 2001 p. 297-298
Andries 18:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Factual comments on above quote:
1. the Shudy Camps property was sold c.1990. The 'Italian castle' (at Cabella Ligure) has been transferred to a foundation administered by the World Council, as has Shri Mataji's house in New Jersey, USA.
[72]
2. Shri Mataji's husband, Sir C.P.Srivastava has repeatedly indicated in recent years that he fully supports Sahaja Yoga, eg.
[73]
The 'expensive properties' accusation is a myth propagated by disgruntled former members.
Sahajhist
01:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
User:Sahajist removed the followin sentence with the edit summary "malicious misinterpretation"
Why is this is a misinterpretation? And why is this alleged misinterpretation malicious? I thought the interpretation is accurate.
Andries 08:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Sahajist, are you sure? Look up the definition. "Malicious" is a serious charge to make against another editor without clear and persuasive evidence. One can be a severe critic, an intractable opponent, or just wrong, without ever being malicious. Milo 15:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I had a quick look at the source, and could find no mention of high sugar content being an essential part of the treatment, perhaps what Sahajhist meant was that the source was being mis-quoted. Sfacets 17:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The Liver Diet is a serious proposal, containing a number of parameters wider than just white sugar and white rice, and has been shown to work. And before anyone asks, no I dont know of a scientific study. If Andries cares to write a balanced and appropriate summary of this diet then I'll be happy to withdraw my initial comment. Sahajhist 21:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Ive had a thorough read through the diet sheets and can find no mention that a high sugar content is beneficial, what is suggested is that cane sugar is the 'food of the liver' but it does not state that it is the only thing that you should eat and in fact mentions many other items. The subtitle of the section reffering to sugar is 'cooling for the liver, and recommended for intake' not you must take vast quantitites of cane sugar and rice. As suggested in the preamble to the actual diet, the concept of a diet to detox the liver is an old one and in past years very similar versions to the diet that Shri Mataji suggested in the mid 1970s are now in common use in the US, UK and Australia see the book The Liver Cleansing Diet: Love Your Liver and Live Longer by Sandra Cabot. Shri Mataji has suggested that cane sugar is beneficial for the liver and in recent years there have been several completely independant research studies carried out that partially back up this suggestion. For example in May of 2006 a paper was published in Phytotherapy Research (M.Motob et al Volume 20 issue 5 pages 359-363) with the conclusion that sugar cane extract has an immunostimulating effect on chickens and reduces liver damage in experimental mice. -- Willia 12:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
You will see that i have added in that chocolate etc are considered to be heating to the liver if taken in excess rather than simply stating that they are harmful. -- Willia 13:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I have re-added the image of the portrait of the band of which I am the copyright holder. Sfacets 11:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
No, you will have to prove that I didn't create the image. Stop being disruptive.
Sfacets
09:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, the insistance by Will Beback for Sfacets to account for the creation of the graphics seem to be verging on the personal attack. Why does Will Beback insist on knowing the time of creation? Does it really make a difference to their validity? -- Willia 18:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)