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I understand that Christians feel child molestation is cool but removal of the section was inappropriate, and reeks of church members running protection on this page, and would that not be against Wikipedia policy? His arraignment of fucking two fourteen year old boys is later today in Santa Ana. Is a supporter of child molesters guarding this page for the church?
I ask that the properly written entry, with references to both the Los Angeles Times and KABC 7 Los Angeles Eyewitness News article be restored. The fact that someone affiliated with this particular church molested teenage BOYS is VERY relevant to this article, given the church's EXTREMELY high profile against gays, and the involvement of this church in national politics, so the relevancy requirement for the section is CLEARLY met.
If I have to rewrite and resubmit the section, I will add the Orange County Special Victims Unit phone number that the prosecutor is asking further victims to call. 2600:100C:B010:E6EF:4EC8:838F:6136:DB4F ( talk) 03:38, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
The "Serious concerns with" section added September 27, 2005 does not pertain directly to Saddleback Church so much as the author's personal opinions about Rick Warren and the "Purpose Driven" movement. I have changed the title to "Opposition, concerns" do to the unduly prejudicial tone it invoked.
I do not believe this amount of editorializing is appropriate, and should be at the least reduced to a few relevant concerns. As is, the "opposition" section is as big as the general explanation.
2600:100C:B010:E6EF:4EC8:838F:6136:DB4F ( talk) 03:59, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Further, a section is already present in the entry for Purpose Driven Purpose_Driven I propose shorting the section to a reference (as it is in the Purpose Driven entry) instead of a list of redundant, critical links.
I can see how it would be entirely appropriate to have criticisms and debates within a Wikipedia article. I wonder, however, if the links section in this article goes too far. In fact, for the individual who is expressing his opinions through them, I think that s/he would find it far more useful to boil it down to one or two powerful links, thus appearing more neutral.
Just one user's thoughts... -- Jelgie 18:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I added the info and a link to the LA Times article about one of their youth ministry being arrested for molesting two 14 year old boys. The entry was deleted, presumably by a member of the church, as it was properly referenced. 2600:100C:B010:E6EF:4EC8:838F:6136:DB4F ( talk) 04:26, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
I´ve put some new information concerning the subject purposed, that I think is give real information about this institution. Of course, everybody has the right to make critics, but both sides must be heard. Se ya, from Brazil!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.186.80.19 ( talk • contribs)
The continuous references to "God" expanding this or that ministry in this (Saddleback) church is clearly POV by any reading of Wikipedia's policy. I have to wonder how many readers would even be offended by it.
If anyone argues that it is not POV but "fact", please consider this: What if I said that it was really Satan driving the expansion of this church? Wouldn't someone (rightfully) point out that that was POV?
On a personal note, I think it is foolish, dangerous, and disrespectful to ascribe the success of a particular church to "God". How dare you! InFairness 05:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
"How dare you!" seems a teeny bit extreme. I guess I'm just not that shocked at my fellow Christians (or Muslims or Jews for that matter) ascribing their church's success to God. Or do you see the only intelligent, safe and respectful view as one that is secularly based?;)
We Christians come at things from a different paradigm. And I think folks of different faiths who live in a pluralistic society are all mature enough to realize that us making claims of the God-based nature of worldly successes (just as they do) does not equal disrespect. It equals faith.
In any case, might it be better to remove and annotate what you believe is POV rather than remove the entire contribution of the author? Is there not any content that you felt could be kept in your revision of the article rather than a mass delete? I was tempted to revise it myself before you deleted. It just seems rather "unwiki-ish" to undo everything a contributor did. But I am new at this so this is newby feedback. It just seems more in-line with what I've read about how wikipedia works.
All the best!-- Jelgie 07:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay, really don't wanna get involved with this article, but... while it may be true that Left Behind does take place in the end times and does involve people getting shot, "Ties to violent end times video game" is still POV. Two reasons: (a) It's arbirtrary that you chose to draw attention to these two facts to the exlcusion of others. It could also be described just as accurately as "Ties to modern-era real-time strategy game", or even "Ties to video game which has lots of concrete." An anti-concrete activist would be particularly offended by such a game, and would want to make sure that everyone knows that Saddleback has ties to such a debacle. So, the fact that two particular aspects of the game are being highlighted displays a POV on the game itself. (b) "Violence" is a relative term. I'm sure Left Behind is less violent than, say, Grand Theft Auto. Actually, I'm sure it's less violent than the Bible. So, to use it implies a judgment on the game which is extraordinarily difficult to make objectively. Hope this helps. Korossyl 13:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
What is this about? I can't seem to find anything on it and I'm curious. Strawberry Island 07:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
This has been moved from the article for discussion.
I don't think the source could be considered a reliable one. [www.inplainsite.org www.inplainsite.org] doesn't indicate in any way that it is anything other than one person's website. [1] A google search for the author of the piece, David Cloud, shows that he has nothing in his background to make this kind of claim valid. In fact, his writings are apparently controversial in themselves. [2] For this kind of claim, it requires a source with some editorial oversight and fact-checking. Pairadox ( talk) 07:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
There a still some problems with this statement. Currently the reference source is the website of the Saddleback Church
[3]. NPOV? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.214.37.243 (
talk) 17:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I think what the church teaches shouyld be discussed. This includes beliefs on science/evolution and creationism and that pastors incorrectly claim humans lived with dinosaurs.
On Saddleback Church website: he wrote the following on the evolution (mispellings in original):
31. Is evolotion part of God's plan?
Question: Why is it not OK for evolution to be part of God’s plan? I don’t understand what the problem is: couldn’t God have used the process of evolution as the way that He created the earth?
Answer: When I was a new believer in Christ, I had some very strong feelings about the issue of evolution. Much as you have expressed, I believed that evolution and the account of the Bible about creation could exist along side of each other very well. I just didn't see what the big argument was all about. I had some friends who had been studying the Bible much longer than I had who saw it differently. But they didn't push me or argue with me, they simply challenged me to take some time to look into the facts and study the issues carefully. I'll always appreciate them for that, because this was an issue that I had to really think through. Eventually, I came to the conclusion, through my study of the Bible and science, that the two positions of evolution and creation just could not fit together... that there are some real problems with the idea that God created through evolution.
I would encourage you to take some time to study this issue. I found that, although I'd understood the science side of the equation, I needed to take some more time to read what the Bible really had to say about this subject. Not having taken the time to really read the Bible, I was very ignorant about what it had to say. Let me give you one example. I discovered that the problem of sin, as addressed in the Bible, was much more serious than I had previously thought. When I realized that the world was clearly a perfect place as God created it, and that this perfection was ruined by the sinful choice of Adam and Eve, it really started me thinking. Did the Bible teach evolution or did it teach the creation of a first man and woman named Adam and Eve? If we evolved, which human being would have made the choice that brought sin into this world? If Adam and Eve were just allegorical pictures, why did the New Testament place some much importance upon them as responsible and real individuals? Since God clearly says that it is our sin that brought death into our world, how could there have been death for billions of years before the arrival of the first man who sinned on the earth? As I asked questions about this issue and studied what the Bible had to say, I found it to be one of the greatest times of learning in my life as a new believer. My prayer is that you will have this same experience!
...
If you want to study this further... Here's a web site that you might want to check out: http://web.archive.org/web/20051118164840/http://www.probe.org/content/section/13/67/ (One article that is especially thought provoking discusses " Darwin's Black Box").
On the website FAQ about dinosaurs:
30. What about dinosaurs? Question: How do they fit in with the idea that God created the world rather than the world evolving on it’s own? Why doesn’t the Bible talk about dinosaurs?
Answer: The Bible tells in Genesis 1 that God made the world in 7 days, and that He made all of the animals on the 5th day and the 6th day. All of the animals were created at the same time, so they all walked the earth at the same time. I know that the pictures we all grew up with in the movies were that dinosaurs roamed a lifeless, volcanic planet. Remember these are just pictures drawn by someone today! The Bible's picture is that dinosaurs and man lived together on the earth, an earth that was filled with vegetation and beauty.
What happened to the dinosaurs? The scientific record lets us know that they obviously became extinct through some kind of cataclysmic event on the earth. Many scientists theorize that this may have been an asteroid striking the earth, while many Christians wonder if this event could have been the worldwide flood in Noah's day. No one can know for certain what this event was.
Although it cannot be stated with certainty, it appears that dinosaurs may have actually been mentioned in the Bible. The Bible uses names like "behemoth" and "tannin." Behemoth means kingly, gigantic beasts. Tannin is a term that includes dragon-like animals and the great sea creatures such as whales, giant squid, and marine reptiles like the plesiosaurs that may have become extinct. The Bible's best description of a dinosaur-like animal is in Job, chapter 40. We don't know for certain if these are actually dinosaurs or are some other large creatures that became extinct. ...
In 2007 interview Warren said:
Do you believe Creation happened in the way Genesis describes it?
WARREN: If you're asking me do I believe in evolution, the answer is no, I don't. I believe that God, at a moment, created man. I do believe Genesis is literal, but I do also know metaphorical terms are used. Did God come down and blow in man's nose? If you believe in God, you don't have a problem accepting miracles. So if God wants to do it that way, it's fine with me.
This aspect of religion and opinion on science is important in describing their beliefs. Tgreach ( talk) 02:54, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Malicious editors are adding in the term "Saddlebacking", which is not a ubiquitously recognized neologism, but rather a derrogatory sexual term made up in the past few days. It isn't notable, and it's not encyclopedic. The only reference (The economist) notes that, at the time of publication, the word didn't even have a definition. It needs to be removed, and the users blocked from editing this page.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 05:00, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
(OD) Now that Dan Savage's efforts have had a few weeks to percolate through the mainstream media (mid-February 2009), it appears that saddlebacking (as a term with specific sexual innuendo) has moved from somewhat notable to extremely notable: http://www.google.com/search?q=saddlebacking It is not my intention to light the fuse of another flamewarring catfight, but now that we have huge amounts of citations from mainstream media, it would appear that the term Saddlebacking (and probably Savage's associated website of saddlebacking.com) would deserve to be inserted into the See Also... section of this SaddleBack Church article. I don't want to be the editor who re-inserts the potentially inflammatory reference, because i can just imagine how many other people are eager to pounce on me if i make such an edit, so would it be possible for other voices to continue the discussion here on this Talk Page so we can do this in the correct manner without violating any policies? Thank you very much Teledildonix314 Talk ~ 4-1-1 00:49, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
You have got to be kidding me. This is what all the fuss is about "Saddlebacking"? Ltwin ( talk) 05:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I am going to remove full protection from this article in a few minutes. From an administrator's point of view how editors react here will allow us to see if the Rick Warren article can be reopened also. I am not going to add in the "Saddlebacking" term - which from my point of view does appear to be supported for inclusion by some consensus - but I will leave that to others to include in an as NPOV way as possible. I also make comment that whilst I would prefer not to have to come back and close the article off again; or to block editors for disruption, vandalism or incivility etc if I am left with no other recourse then I will act as necessary. My final comment at this time is to remind editors that COI is not POI (point of view) - we all have a point of view for example I might like or dislike the Big Mac Burger, how I detail my view on issues surrounding that Burger either makes my edit neutral or biased. If I own a McDonalds store; am a member of the McDonalds family; a shareholder; the brother of Ronald; an advertiser for the company etc then this fact will help to decide if I have a COI. Thus editors saying this person or that person is biased in their editing does not extrapolate to COI unless a link to (in this case) the Saddleback Church; Rick Warren etc is shown/proven. More to the point just because an editor frequents McDonalds, eats burgers etc (or in this case visits the Saddleback Church, is a Christian etc) does not automatically establish a COI for an editor. To date there is only one such case established within the list of editors frequenting this and the Rick Warren article and I am pleased to note that that editor has made some major progress (at his user page and elsewhere) of listing his biases and confirming his COI. I wish all good luck in the next stage for this article.-- VS talk 04:21, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Hello, thank you for checking this for accuracy and verifiability with good faith. The latest anonymous editor's change to the article was a one word inflammatory insertion of "pro-death" instead of "pro-choice", but i checked the references and citations on this article, and they are using the common "pro-choice" wording. I don't see the reliable sources using the "pro-death" wording. Is it acceptable if that kind of word change is reneged, so we could Undo and put it back to "pro-choice" please? I want to know if that's the consensus from the people who felt the article needed to be protected and treated delicately? Thank you for your time and consideration. Teledildonix314 Talk ~ contributions 19:49, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
(unindent)
The issue is personhood, not life; any cell is alive, but that doesn't give it rights. You would like to give rights to a clump of cells at the expense of the person it is inside. Worse, "long term psychological effects of abortion" is your little way of attempting to guilt women into having unwanted children. Clearly, it is not that you can't see the reality, but that you choose to put your own spin on it for political reasons. This conversation is over. Spotfixer ( talk) 05:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I have added a link to where this term is being discussed. I have made a rationale for having this connection established at Talk:Rick Warren#Link to Saddlebacking in case we need a renewed debate on this matter. __ meco ( talk) 15:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm starting this section to make sure we iron out the criticisms and controversy. earlier my whole section was deleted by Lyonscc because he didn't like part of it. lets be clear here. an organization of this size and weight needs a proper criticism section for the article to be truely neutral. we can haggle over the details. we can haggle over the sources used or what to include or what not to include. but at the least it has to cover prop 8. it has to cover the inauguration. and it has to cover the mixup on larry king which brought the whole church under a media firestorm. also I was thinking it should have a small shout out the the fred phelps church incident. but what we can't do is just delete everything because we don't want any criticisms of our favorite megachurch. what I put up there to start with isn't perfect and I know that. I know it needs work. so lets work on it! Scottdude2000 ( talk) 17:37, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Just to get some points out that came out in the entire Warren arbitration: 1) The church's stance on same-sex marriage is no different than any other church in the SBC (its denomination) and is, therefore, not notable in and of itself; 2) A pastor speaks for himself - he/she is not the CEO of his/her church, so his statements cannot be considered blanket belief/policy of the church (in a complete difference with the nixon/watergate example)-- Lyonscc ( talk) 21:03, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Well I stepped into this edit war, which is unusual for me; usually I only arbitrate them, but a reading of the article struck me as unfair, so I've chosen this course of action. For those who are somewhat new on Wikipedia, being an administrator (which I am) doesn't grant any more weight to my opinion than anyone else who is editing in good faith ( WP:NOBIGDEAL).
But my reasoning behind the issue is as follows:
This is kind of a wordy way of me saying I think the section is too long and a bit too scandal-mongering; sorry about that, but I think it's important that you all know the reasoning behind this sentiment (so that my opinion isn't just another loud complaining voice). Let me know what you think, and I will respond when I am around. Magog the Ogre ( talk) 23:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Addendum: - I wasn't aware either of a history of arbitration. Magog the Ogre ( talk) 23:46, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
I will be requesting that Scott be blocked, because he has broken the 3RR (in which the first edit to the article counted as the first "revert"). This is clear POV-pushing and tendentious editing. Let's follow the process and agree to changes here first.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 21:30, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
here's the controversies section. magog has requested we iron it out while leaving the political action the church took intact as he said that was fair. this is the last version of LTwin's edits before Lyoncc destroyed them wholesale. Scottdude2000 ( talk) 02:44, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Saddleback opposes same sex marriage and was a supporter of the 2008 Proposition 8 ballot initiative, a statewide constitutional ban on same sex marriage. [1] [2] Weeks before the state general election Saddleback endorsed Proposition 8 urging its congregants to vote for it in a video statement posted on its blog on the church's website. Quote: "[It was a] proposition that had to be instated because the courts threw out the will of the people. A court of four guys actually voted to change a definition of chris-- of marriage [sic] that has been going [sic] for 5000 years. Let me just say this really clearly, we support proposition 8. And if you believe what the bible says about marriage you need to support proposition 8." [2]
Later that year, when selected to pray at the inauguration ceremony of then President Elect Barack Obama, the church found itself embroiled in a national controversy. [3] In an interview on Larry King Live, Rev. Rick Warren was asked about his statement to his congregation on the church's blog to which he responded: "I am not an anti-gay or anti-gay marriage activist. Never have been, never will be". Warren continued, "During the whole Proposition 8 thing, I never once went to a meeting, never once issued a statement, never once even gave an endorsement in the two years Prop. 8 was going". [4] This sudden reversal of the pastor's position ignited anger from evangelical leaders and seemed to contradict his statement on the church's blog. [5] [4] The church later clarified Warren's comments saying, "When Dr. Warren told Larry King that he never campaigned for California's Proposition 8, he was referring to not participating in the official two-year organized advocacy effort specific to the ballot initiative in that state, based on his focus and leadership on other compassion issues". [4]
and HOLD UP. upon a further re-read why is it fair to browbeat obama and clinton for being pro-choice in a section on aids but not to talk about church's politicking or national media firestorms or speaking at presidential inaugurations!? double standard lyon Scottdude2000 ( talk) 17:05, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
References
originally I wanted a media interactions section. but with the deletions of the fox stuff by collect this leaves us with the presidential debate and the prop 8 campaign and subsequent firestorm and statement to the media. so the unifying factor between all these is they relate in that they all stem from the 08 campaign. better? Scottdude2000 ( talk) 18:00, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
"Media firestorm"? Really? There is absolutely nothing in the Google current news search that turns up Saddleback and Prop 8, and the archives search picks up a nugget from The Houston Chronicle:
The pastor chosen by President-elect Barack Obama to give the inaugural invocation backed Proposition 8, which banned gay marriage in his home state of California. But he did so belatedly, with none of the enthusiasm he brings to fighting AIDS and illiteracy.
When other conservative Christians held stadium rallies and raised tens of millions of dollars for the ballot effort, there was no sign of Warren. Neither he nor his wife, Kay, donated any of their considerable fortune to the campaign, according to public records and the Warrens’ spokesman.
In fact, his endorsement seemed calculated for minimal impact. It was announced late on a Friday, just 10 days before Election Day, on a Web site geared for members of his Saddleback Community Church, not the general public.
This is a verifiable source which demonstrates exactly why tagging Saddleback as a major supporter of Prop 8 would be the exact wrong thing to do.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 18:35, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
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Two editors who previously removed this information have posed questions in their edit summaries:
1. The church approved the molestation?
2. The church abetted the molestation?
3. Rv:Undue. Why is this relevant to this article?
4. Does every crime committed by a member become the responsibility of that org.?
1. & 2. No-one has made any such claim. The questions are irrelevant.
3. "Why is this relevant to this article?" Meulenberg has been associated with the church for six years, the alleged victims also attended the church, some of the alleged offences took place on church premises, and Meulenberg held a position of responsibility at the church specifically involving youth mentoring. It's hard not to conclude there is some connection. Meulenberg's parents are reported to be on the staff of the church and there is some question as to whether he himself was a volunteer as claimed or actually on staff. Meulenberg is also a person of some standing in the community having, with his twin, written religious children's books and developed a computer game based on the Bible. The stark contrast between nature of the offences and the stated aims and beliefs of the church is also cause for its inclusion.
4. "Does every crime committed by a member become the responsibility of that org.?" Now that is an interesting question - and in general I would give a cautious "no". If a member robbed a bank I wouldn't hold the Automobile Association responsible. But we're not talking about "every" crime, we're talking about this crime, and this organisation. "Responsible" has shades of meaning. Am I my brother's keeper? (The answer, remember, is supposed to be yes). Does a church have a responsibility to and for its members? How about a responsibility for its officers (whether paid or not)? And what about vulnerable minors who it places in the care of such officers? Does it have any responsibility towards them?
The questioner can answer in the privacy of his conscience because, though interesting, it is as irrelevant as the first two questions. Wikipedia is not about apportioning blame, it is a record of fact. The desire of individual members to shield their church from uncomfortable facts is understandable but wrong-headed and counter-productive, giving an impression not of enlightened truth but rather of hypocrisy. The church's own comment on this case has the last word: "As followers of Jesus, we always want the whole truth to come out because Jesus taught us that lies enslave us, but the truth sets us free." [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]
However I can see that giving the information its own section and arguably inflammatory heading is undue so I have merely added it to "History". Captainllama ( talk) 11:22, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
References
(1) There is no controversies section in this article, but there have been several controversies with the church: Including that the church is run like a business with a marketing plan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbrcRKqLSRw The sexual assault charges brought against a youth leader (I don't agree with the language someone else used to point this out, but I do agree it is glaringly absent from this article) https://ktla.com/2018/08/23/saddleback-church-youth-mentor-convicted-of-molesting-teen-brothers-da/ and the controversy over the churches involvement in the 2008 presidential election http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1872453,00.html There have also been several criticisms of the church by other denominations and churches. Ignoring controversies when there have been controversies leads to the overall feel of bias. Someone needs to create a section addressing these (and any others).
(2) The "Campus" section only tells where different campuses are located. There is no description of what one will generally find when they visit the main campus. It seems there are multiple buildings: What are they? Are these standard on every campus? In fact, the picture of the church doesn't even help. Since there seems to be multiple buildings, a map would be more relevant here than a picture of the entrance. There is no mention of the architect who designed the church layout. The "reference" in this section is actually a direct link to the online church services. http://www.gotochurchonline.tv/saddleback-church/ or https://blog.capterra.com/the-5-biggest-online-churches/ are better references. As it is written, this section seems to be more of an invitation to come to the campuses (or online services) instead of an unbiased description of what you would find there. "The Refinery houses Saddleback's middle school ministry (JHM), high school ministry (HSM), college ministry (CM), and young adults ministry, (Fuel)." and some of the other information about the Refinery that is found in the History section should be moved here, but there needs to be balance between all the buildings and ministries of the church-not just a highlight of one ministry that takes up the entire section.
(3) With over "80 different buildings" used, why is Laguna High School the only one mentioned and why is it then mentioned twice? Why is it mentioned twice there are 22,000 members in 2017?
(4) In the editing page, it states at the top "all information in the article should be fully sourced with reliable third party citations." The main body of the history section only has two citations and both of those are from the church website (which is not a third party source). Not surprisingly it reads like an advertisement for the church. The Purpose Driven Church section only references the websites that were set up by Saddleback Church for its specific ministries (again, not third party). In fact, 6 of the 12 references cited are church sponsored websites. Also in the history section-stating something was somebodies "dream" needs a reference to where that person made the statement in a third-party source.
(5) Phrases like "the state-of-the-art facility is considered the premier student ministry facility" are opinions and not facts and should be deleted. "Saddleback is "virtually" attended online by those around the country and the world who watch and listen to worship services on demand" needs to be changed to remove the bias: "Saddleback offers worldwide, on-demand and live online services." OR the reference from a third-party that shows people attend these services "virtually" needs to be cited. "Attending" and "offering" are two different things, there is nothing on the primary source website that even shows anyone has visited it or watched a service, and finally, even if there were a counter on the website, it could be tampered with by church members since they own the website (I am not implying they would do this, I am just trying to point out that you cannot use primary source information for something like this). Another example of this language bias throughout the article is "the event is notable as the first time the two presidential candidates met during the campaign." This event, based on all descriptions I have read of it was not "notable" and it certainly wasn't talked about because it was the "first time the... candidates met." That statement should be deleted. "Notable" is an opinion and not a fact. This was not even a meeting many would agree was remarkable, such as the one between Nixon and Mao. Obama and McCain were already planning to meet in a televised debate later (as have all candidates since the 1960s). It was also not the "first time the... candidates met during the campaign" Both candidates were active senators throughout the campaign. They met on the Senate floor and even supported some of the same bills while campaigning against each other. The main reason the meeting with Warren was talked about afterward was because the liberals felt Warren posed questions that were biased against Obama in the meeting. If the meeting is to be mentioned in the Wiki article, it should be portrayed as it was- nothing special- and the controversy surrounding it should be mentioned in a controversies section.
I came to Wikipedia for an unbiased view of this church and the controversies surrounding it. If I had wanted a biased view, I would have simply Googled the church website and looked at that. Hopefully, these issues will be addressed by someone who has the time, and hopefully church members won't attempt to delete the needed changes.
P.S. By a "Controversies" section, I do not mean an in-depth he-said she-said debate as to whether or not the controversy is true. I mean "One youth pastor at Saddleback was recently convicted of behaving inappropriately with twins who were also members of the church in a movie theater." One or two sentences telling me what the facts are. That is all I want. 2601:245:C100:AAD0:35EA:6B43:4264:675B ( talk) 14:14, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Church Leadership wrong on Female pastors. 1 Timothy 2. 2601:5C5:4302:26E0:15C2:3C9C:6F01:A14B ( talk) 18:04, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
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I understand that Christians feel child molestation is cool but removal of the section was inappropriate, and reeks of church members running protection on this page, and would that not be against Wikipedia policy? His arraignment of fucking two fourteen year old boys is later today in Santa Ana. Is a supporter of child molesters guarding this page for the church?
I ask that the properly written entry, with references to both the Los Angeles Times and KABC 7 Los Angeles Eyewitness News article be restored. The fact that someone affiliated with this particular church molested teenage BOYS is VERY relevant to this article, given the church's EXTREMELY high profile against gays, and the involvement of this church in national politics, so the relevancy requirement for the section is CLEARLY met.
If I have to rewrite and resubmit the section, I will add the Orange County Special Victims Unit phone number that the prosecutor is asking further victims to call. 2600:100C:B010:E6EF:4EC8:838F:6136:DB4F ( talk) 03:38, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
The "Serious concerns with" section added September 27, 2005 does not pertain directly to Saddleback Church so much as the author's personal opinions about Rick Warren and the "Purpose Driven" movement. I have changed the title to "Opposition, concerns" do to the unduly prejudicial tone it invoked.
I do not believe this amount of editorializing is appropriate, and should be at the least reduced to a few relevant concerns. As is, the "opposition" section is as big as the general explanation.
2600:100C:B010:E6EF:4EC8:838F:6136:DB4F ( talk) 03:59, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Further, a section is already present in the entry for Purpose Driven Purpose_Driven I propose shorting the section to a reference (as it is in the Purpose Driven entry) instead of a list of redundant, critical links.
I can see how it would be entirely appropriate to have criticisms and debates within a Wikipedia article. I wonder, however, if the links section in this article goes too far. In fact, for the individual who is expressing his opinions through them, I think that s/he would find it far more useful to boil it down to one or two powerful links, thus appearing more neutral.
Just one user's thoughts... -- Jelgie 18:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I added the info and a link to the LA Times article about one of their youth ministry being arrested for molesting two 14 year old boys. The entry was deleted, presumably by a member of the church, as it was properly referenced. 2600:100C:B010:E6EF:4EC8:838F:6136:DB4F ( talk) 04:26, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
I´ve put some new information concerning the subject purposed, that I think is give real information about this institution. Of course, everybody has the right to make critics, but both sides must be heard. Se ya, from Brazil!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.186.80.19 ( talk • contribs)
The continuous references to "God" expanding this or that ministry in this (Saddleback) church is clearly POV by any reading of Wikipedia's policy. I have to wonder how many readers would even be offended by it.
If anyone argues that it is not POV but "fact", please consider this: What if I said that it was really Satan driving the expansion of this church? Wouldn't someone (rightfully) point out that that was POV?
On a personal note, I think it is foolish, dangerous, and disrespectful to ascribe the success of a particular church to "God". How dare you! InFairness 05:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
"How dare you!" seems a teeny bit extreme. I guess I'm just not that shocked at my fellow Christians (or Muslims or Jews for that matter) ascribing their church's success to God. Or do you see the only intelligent, safe and respectful view as one that is secularly based?;)
We Christians come at things from a different paradigm. And I think folks of different faiths who live in a pluralistic society are all mature enough to realize that us making claims of the God-based nature of worldly successes (just as they do) does not equal disrespect. It equals faith.
In any case, might it be better to remove and annotate what you believe is POV rather than remove the entire contribution of the author? Is there not any content that you felt could be kept in your revision of the article rather than a mass delete? I was tempted to revise it myself before you deleted. It just seems rather "unwiki-ish" to undo everything a contributor did. But I am new at this so this is newby feedback. It just seems more in-line with what I've read about how wikipedia works.
All the best!-- Jelgie 07:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay, really don't wanna get involved with this article, but... while it may be true that Left Behind does take place in the end times and does involve people getting shot, "Ties to violent end times video game" is still POV. Two reasons: (a) It's arbirtrary that you chose to draw attention to these two facts to the exlcusion of others. It could also be described just as accurately as "Ties to modern-era real-time strategy game", or even "Ties to video game which has lots of concrete." An anti-concrete activist would be particularly offended by such a game, and would want to make sure that everyone knows that Saddleback has ties to such a debacle. So, the fact that two particular aspects of the game are being highlighted displays a POV on the game itself. (b) "Violence" is a relative term. I'm sure Left Behind is less violent than, say, Grand Theft Auto. Actually, I'm sure it's less violent than the Bible. So, to use it implies a judgment on the game which is extraordinarily difficult to make objectively. Hope this helps. Korossyl 13:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
What is this about? I can't seem to find anything on it and I'm curious. Strawberry Island 07:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
This has been moved from the article for discussion.
I don't think the source could be considered a reliable one. [www.inplainsite.org www.inplainsite.org] doesn't indicate in any way that it is anything other than one person's website. [1] A google search for the author of the piece, David Cloud, shows that he has nothing in his background to make this kind of claim valid. In fact, his writings are apparently controversial in themselves. [2] For this kind of claim, it requires a source with some editorial oversight and fact-checking. Pairadox ( talk) 07:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
There a still some problems with this statement. Currently the reference source is the website of the Saddleback Church
[3]. NPOV? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.214.37.243 (
talk) 17:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I think what the church teaches shouyld be discussed. This includes beliefs on science/evolution and creationism and that pastors incorrectly claim humans lived with dinosaurs.
On Saddleback Church website: he wrote the following on the evolution (mispellings in original):
31. Is evolotion part of God's plan?
Question: Why is it not OK for evolution to be part of God’s plan? I don’t understand what the problem is: couldn’t God have used the process of evolution as the way that He created the earth?
Answer: When I was a new believer in Christ, I had some very strong feelings about the issue of evolution. Much as you have expressed, I believed that evolution and the account of the Bible about creation could exist along side of each other very well. I just didn't see what the big argument was all about. I had some friends who had been studying the Bible much longer than I had who saw it differently. But they didn't push me or argue with me, they simply challenged me to take some time to look into the facts and study the issues carefully. I'll always appreciate them for that, because this was an issue that I had to really think through. Eventually, I came to the conclusion, through my study of the Bible and science, that the two positions of evolution and creation just could not fit together... that there are some real problems with the idea that God created through evolution.
I would encourage you to take some time to study this issue. I found that, although I'd understood the science side of the equation, I needed to take some more time to read what the Bible really had to say about this subject. Not having taken the time to really read the Bible, I was very ignorant about what it had to say. Let me give you one example. I discovered that the problem of sin, as addressed in the Bible, was much more serious than I had previously thought. When I realized that the world was clearly a perfect place as God created it, and that this perfection was ruined by the sinful choice of Adam and Eve, it really started me thinking. Did the Bible teach evolution or did it teach the creation of a first man and woman named Adam and Eve? If we evolved, which human being would have made the choice that brought sin into this world? If Adam and Eve were just allegorical pictures, why did the New Testament place some much importance upon them as responsible and real individuals? Since God clearly says that it is our sin that brought death into our world, how could there have been death for billions of years before the arrival of the first man who sinned on the earth? As I asked questions about this issue and studied what the Bible had to say, I found it to be one of the greatest times of learning in my life as a new believer. My prayer is that you will have this same experience!
...
If you want to study this further... Here's a web site that you might want to check out: http://web.archive.org/web/20051118164840/http://www.probe.org/content/section/13/67/ (One article that is especially thought provoking discusses " Darwin's Black Box").
On the website FAQ about dinosaurs:
30. What about dinosaurs? Question: How do they fit in with the idea that God created the world rather than the world evolving on it’s own? Why doesn’t the Bible talk about dinosaurs?
Answer: The Bible tells in Genesis 1 that God made the world in 7 days, and that He made all of the animals on the 5th day and the 6th day. All of the animals were created at the same time, so they all walked the earth at the same time. I know that the pictures we all grew up with in the movies were that dinosaurs roamed a lifeless, volcanic planet. Remember these are just pictures drawn by someone today! The Bible's picture is that dinosaurs and man lived together on the earth, an earth that was filled with vegetation and beauty.
What happened to the dinosaurs? The scientific record lets us know that they obviously became extinct through some kind of cataclysmic event on the earth. Many scientists theorize that this may have been an asteroid striking the earth, while many Christians wonder if this event could have been the worldwide flood in Noah's day. No one can know for certain what this event was.
Although it cannot be stated with certainty, it appears that dinosaurs may have actually been mentioned in the Bible. The Bible uses names like "behemoth" and "tannin." Behemoth means kingly, gigantic beasts. Tannin is a term that includes dragon-like animals and the great sea creatures such as whales, giant squid, and marine reptiles like the plesiosaurs that may have become extinct. The Bible's best description of a dinosaur-like animal is in Job, chapter 40. We don't know for certain if these are actually dinosaurs or are some other large creatures that became extinct. ...
In 2007 interview Warren said:
Do you believe Creation happened in the way Genesis describes it?
WARREN: If you're asking me do I believe in evolution, the answer is no, I don't. I believe that God, at a moment, created man. I do believe Genesis is literal, but I do also know metaphorical terms are used. Did God come down and blow in man's nose? If you believe in God, you don't have a problem accepting miracles. So if God wants to do it that way, it's fine with me.
This aspect of religion and opinion on science is important in describing their beliefs. Tgreach ( talk) 02:54, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Malicious editors are adding in the term "Saddlebacking", which is not a ubiquitously recognized neologism, but rather a derrogatory sexual term made up in the past few days. It isn't notable, and it's not encyclopedic. The only reference (The economist) notes that, at the time of publication, the word didn't even have a definition. It needs to be removed, and the users blocked from editing this page.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 05:00, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
(OD) Now that Dan Savage's efforts have had a few weeks to percolate through the mainstream media (mid-February 2009), it appears that saddlebacking (as a term with specific sexual innuendo) has moved from somewhat notable to extremely notable: http://www.google.com/search?q=saddlebacking It is not my intention to light the fuse of another flamewarring catfight, but now that we have huge amounts of citations from mainstream media, it would appear that the term Saddlebacking (and probably Savage's associated website of saddlebacking.com) would deserve to be inserted into the See Also... section of this SaddleBack Church article. I don't want to be the editor who re-inserts the potentially inflammatory reference, because i can just imagine how many other people are eager to pounce on me if i make such an edit, so would it be possible for other voices to continue the discussion here on this Talk Page so we can do this in the correct manner without violating any policies? Thank you very much Teledildonix314 Talk ~ 4-1-1 00:49, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
You have got to be kidding me. This is what all the fuss is about "Saddlebacking"? Ltwin ( talk) 05:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I am going to remove full protection from this article in a few minutes. From an administrator's point of view how editors react here will allow us to see if the Rick Warren article can be reopened also. I am not going to add in the "Saddlebacking" term - which from my point of view does appear to be supported for inclusion by some consensus - but I will leave that to others to include in an as NPOV way as possible. I also make comment that whilst I would prefer not to have to come back and close the article off again; or to block editors for disruption, vandalism or incivility etc if I am left with no other recourse then I will act as necessary. My final comment at this time is to remind editors that COI is not POI (point of view) - we all have a point of view for example I might like or dislike the Big Mac Burger, how I detail my view on issues surrounding that Burger either makes my edit neutral or biased. If I own a McDonalds store; am a member of the McDonalds family; a shareholder; the brother of Ronald; an advertiser for the company etc then this fact will help to decide if I have a COI. Thus editors saying this person or that person is biased in their editing does not extrapolate to COI unless a link to (in this case) the Saddleback Church; Rick Warren etc is shown/proven. More to the point just because an editor frequents McDonalds, eats burgers etc (or in this case visits the Saddleback Church, is a Christian etc) does not automatically establish a COI for an editor. To date there is only one such case established within the list of editors frequenting this and the Rick Warren article and I am pleased to note that that editor has made some major progress (at his user page and elsewhere) of listing his biases and confirming his COI. I wish all good luck in the next stage for this article.-- VS talk 04:21, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Hello, thank you for checking this for accuracy and verifiability with good faith. The latest anonymous editor's change to the article was a one word inflammatory insertion of "pro-death" instead of "pro-choice", but i checked the references and citations on this article, and they are using the common "pro-choice" wording. I don't see the reliable sources using the "pro-death" wording. Is it acceptable if that kind of word change is reneged, so we could Undo and put it back to "pro-choice" please? I want to know if that's the consensus from the people who felt the article needed to be protected and treated delicately? Thank you for your time and consideration. Teledildonix314 Talk ~ contributions 19:49, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
(unindent)
The issue is personhood, not life; any cell is alive, but that doesn't give it rights. You would like to give rights to a clump of cells at the expense of the person it is inside. Worse, "long term psychological effects of abortion" is your little way of attempting to guilt women into having unwanted children. Clearly, it is not that you can't see the reality, but that you choose to put your own spin on it for political reasons. This conversation is over. Spotfixer ( talk) 05:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I have added a link to where this term is being discussed. I have made a rationale for having this connection established at Talk:Rick Warren#Link to Saddlebacking in case we need a renewed debate on this matter. __ meco ( talk) 15:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm starting this section to make sure we iron out the criticisms and controversy. earlier my whole section was deleted by Lyonscc because he didn't like part of it. lets be clear here. an organization of this size and weight needs a proper criticism section for the article to be truely neutral. we can haggle over the details. we can haggle over the sources used or what to include or what not to include. but at the least it has to cover prop 8. it has to cover the inauguration. and it has to cover the mixup on larry king which brought the whole church under a media firestorm. also I was thinking it should have a small shout out the the fred phelps church incident. but what we can't do is just delete everything because we don't want any criticisms of our favorite megachurch. what I put up there to start with isn't perfect and I know that. I know it needs work. so lets work on it! Scottdude2000 ( talk) 17:37, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Just to get some points out that came out in the entire Warren arbitration: 1) The church's stance on same-sex marriage is no different than any other church in the SBC (its denomination) and is, therefore, not notable in and of itself; 2) A pastor speaks for himself - he/she is not the CEO of his/her church, so his statements cannot be considered blanket belief/policy of the church (in a complete difference with the nixon/watergate example)-- Lyonscc ( talk) 21:03, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Well I stepped into this edit war, which is unusual for me; usually I only arbitrate them, but a reading of the article struck me as unfair, so I've chosen this course of action. For those who are somewhat new on Wikipedia, being an administrator (which I am) doesn't grant any more weight to my opinion than anyone else who is editing in good faith ( WP:NOBIGDEAL).
But my reasoning behind the issue is as follows:
This is kind of a wordy way of me saying I think the section is too long and a bit too scandal-mongering; sorry about that, but I think it's important that you all know the reasoning behind this sentiment (so that my opinion isn't just another loud complaining voice). Let me know what you think, and I will respond when I am around. Magog the Ogre ( talk) 23:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Addendum: - I wasn't aware either of a history of arbitration. Magog the Ogre ( talk) 23:46, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
I will be requesting that Scott be blocked, because he has broken the 3RR (in which the first edit to the article counted as the first "revert"). This is clear POV-pushing and tendentious editing. Let's follow the process and agree to changes here first.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 21:30, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
here's the controversies section. magog has requested we iron it out while leaving the political action the church took intact as he said that was fair. this is the last version of LTwin's edits before Lyoncc destroyed them wholesale. Scottdude2000 ( talk) 02:44, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Saddleback opposes same sex marriage and was a supporter of the 2008 Proposition 8 ballot initiative, a statewide constitutional ban on same sex marriage. [1] [2] Weeks before the state general election Saddleback endorsed Proposition 8 urging its congregants to vote for it in a video statement posted on its blog on the church's website. Quote: "[It was a] proposition that had to be instated because the courts threw out the will of the people. A court of four guys actually voted to change a definition of chris-- of marriage [sic] that has been going [sic] for 5000 years. Let me just say this really clearly, we support proposition 8. And if you believe what the bible says about marriage you need to support proposition 8." [2]
Later that year, when selected to pray at the inauguration ceremony of then President Elect Barack Obama, the church found itself embroiled in a national controversy. [3] In an interview on Larry King Live, Rev. Rick Warren was asked about his statement to his congregation on the church's blog to which he responded: "I am not an anti-gay or anti-gay marriage activist. Never have been, never will be". Warren continued, "During the whole Proposition 8 thing, I never once went to a meeting, never once issued a statement, never once even gave an endorsement in the two years Prop. 8 was going". [4] This sudden reversal of the pastor's position ignited anger from evangelical leaders and seemed to contradict his statement on the church's blog. [5] [4] The church later clarified Warren's comments saying, "When Dr. Warren told Larry King that he never campaigned for California's Proposition 8, he was referring to not participating in the official two-year organized advocacy effort specific to the ballot initiative in that state, based on his focus and leadership on other compassion issues". [4]
and HOLD UP. upon a further re-read why is it fair to browbeat obama and clinton for being pro-choice in a section on aids but not to talk about church's politicking or national media firestorms or speaking at presidential inaugurations!? double standard lyon Scottdude2000 ( talk) 17:05, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
References
originally I wanted a media interactions section. but with the deletions of the fox stuff by collect this leaves us with the presidential debate and the prop 8 campaign and subsequent firestorm and statement to the media. so the unifying factor between all these is they relate in that they all stem from the 08 campaign. better? Scottdude2000 ( talk) 18:00, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
"Media firestorm"? Really? There is absolutely nothing in the Google current news search that turns up Saddleback and Prop 8, and the archives search picks up a nugget from The Houston Chronicle:
The pastor chosen by President-elect Barack Obama to give the inaugural invocation backed Proposition 8, which banned gay marriage in his home state of California. But he did so belatedly, with none of the enthusiasm he brings to fighting AIDS and illiteracy.
When other conservative Christians held stadium rallies and raised tens of millions of dollars for the ballot effort, there was no sign of Warren. Neither he nor his wife, Kay, donated any of their considerable fortune to the campaign, according to public records and the Warrens’ spokesman.
In fact, his endorsement seemed calculated for minimal impact. It was announced late on a Friday, just 10 days before Election Day, on a Web site geared for members of his Saddleback Community Church, not the general public.
This is a verifiable source which demonstrates exactly why tagging Saddleback as a major supporter of Prop 8 would be the exact wrong thing to do.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 18:35, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
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Two editors who previously removed this information have posed questions in their edit summaries:
1. The church approved the molestation?
2. The church abetted the molestation?
3. Rv:Undue. Why is this relevant to this article?
4. Does every crime committed by a member become the responsibility of that org.?
1. & 2. No-one has made any such claim. The questions are irrelevant.
3. "Why is this relevant to this article?" Meulenberg has been associated with the church for six years, the alleged victims also attended the church, some of the alleged offences took place on church premises, and Meulenberg held a position of responsibility at the church specifically involving youth mentoring. It's hard not to conclude there is some connection. Meulenberg's parents are reported to be on the staff of the church and there is some question as to whether he himself was a volunteer as claimed or actually on staff. Meulenberg is also a person of some standing in the community having, with his twin, written religious children's books and developed a computer game based on the Bible. The stark contrast between nature of the offences and the stated aims and beliefs of the church is also cause for its inclusion.
4. "Does every crime committed by a member become the responsibility of that org.?" Now that is an interesting question - and in general I would give a cautious "no". If a member robbed a bank I wouldn't hold the Automobile Association responsible. But we're not talking about "every" crime, we're talking about this crime, and this organisation. "Responsible" has shades of meaning. Am I my brother's keeper? (The answer, remember, is supposed to be yes). Does a church have a responsibility to and for its members? How about a responsibility for its officers (whether paid or not)? And what about vulnerable minors who it places in the care of such officers? Does it have any responsibility towards them?
The questioner can answer in the privacy of his conscience because, though interesting, it is as irrelevant as the first two questions. Wikipedia is not about apportioning blame, it is a record of fact. The desire of individual members to shield their church from uncomfortable facts is understandable but wrong-headed and counter-productive, giving an impression not of enlightened truth but rather of hypocrisy. The church's own comment on this case has the last word: "As followers of Jesus, we always want the whole truth to come out because Jesus taught us that lies enslave us, but the truth sets us free." [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]
However I can see that giving the information its own section and arguably inflammatory heading is undue so I have merely added it to "History". Captainllama ( talk) 11:22, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
References
(1) There is no controversies section in this article, but there have been several controversies with the church: Including that the church is run like a business with a marketing plan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbrcRKqLSRw The sexual assault charges brought against a youth leader (I don't agree with the language someone else used to point this out, but I do agree it is glaringly absent from this article) https://ktla.com/2018/08/23/saddleback-church-youth-mentor-convicted-of-molesting-teen-brothers-da/ and the controversy over the churches involvement in the 2008 presidential election http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1872453,00.html There have also been several criticisms of the church by other denominations and churches. Ignoring controversies when there have been controversies leads to the overall feel of bias. Someone needs to create a section addressing these (and any others).
(2) The "Campus" section only tells where different campuses are located. There is no description of what one will generally find when they visit the main campus. It seems there are multiple buildings: What are they? Are these standard on every campus? In fact, the picture of the church doesn't even help. Since there seems to be multiple buildings, a map would be more relevant here than a picture of the entrance. There is no mention of the architect who designed the church layout. The "reference" in this section is actually a direct link to the online church services. http://www.gotochurchonline.tv/saddleback-church/ or https://blog.capterra.com/the-5-biggest-online-churches/ are better references. As it is written, this section seems to be more of an invitation to come to the campuses (or online services) instead of an unbiased description of what you would find there. "The Refinery houses Saddleback's middle school ministry (JHM), high school ministry (HSM), college ministry (CM), and young adults ministry, (Fuel)." and some of the other information about the Refinery that is found in the History section should be moved here, but there needs to be balance between all the buildings and ministries of the church-not just a highlight of one ministry that takes up the entire section.
(3) With over "80 different buildings" used, why is Laguna High School the only one mentioned and why is it then mentioned twice? Why is it mentioned twice there are 22,000 members in 2017?
(4) In the editing page, it states at the top "all information in the article should be fully sourced with reliable third party citations." The main body of the history section only has two citations and both of those are from the church website (which is not a third party source). Not surprisingly it reads like an advertisement for the church. The Purpose Driven Church section only references the websites that were set up by Saddleback Church for its specific ministries (again, not third party). In fact, 6 of the 12 references cited are church sponsored websites. Also in the history section-stating something was somebodies "dream" needs a reference to where that person made the statement in a third-party source.
(5) Phrases like "the state-of-the-art facility is considered the premier student ministry facility" are opinions and not facts and should be deleted. "Saddleback is "virtually" attended online by those around the country and the world who watch and listen to worship services on demand" needs to be changed to remove the bias: "Saddleback offers worldwide, on-demand and live online services." OR the reference from a third-party that shows people attend these services "virtually" needs to be cited. "Attending" and "offering" are two different things, there is nothing on the primary source website that even shows anyone has visited it or watched a service, and finally, even if there were a counter on the website, it could be tampered with by church members since they own the website (I am not implying they would do this, I am just trying to point out that you cannot use primary source information for something like this). Another example of this language bias throughout the article is "the event is notable as the first time the two presidential candidates met during the campaign." This event, based on all descriptions I have read of it was not "notable" and it certainly wasn't talked about because it was the "first time the... candidates met." That statement should be deleted. "Notable" is an opinion and not a fact. This was not even a meeting many would agree was remarkable, such as the one between Nixon and Mao. Obama and McCain were already planning to meet in a televised debate later (as have all candidates since the 1960s). It was also not the "first time the... candidates met during the campaign" Both candidates were active senators throughout the campaign. They met on the Senate floor and even supported some of the same bills while campaigning against each other. The main reason the meeting with Warren was talked about afterward was because the liberals felt Warren posed questions that were biased against Obama in the meeting. If the meeting is to be mentioned in the Wiki article, it should be portrayed as it was- nothing special- and the controversy surrounding it should be mentioned in a controversies section.
I came to Wikipedia for an unbiased view of this church and the controversies surrounding it. If I had wanted a biased view, I would have simply Googled the church website and looked at that. Hopefully, these issues will be addressed by someone who has the time, and hopefully church members won't attempt to delete the needed changes.
P.S. By a "Controversies" section, I do not mean an in-depth he-said she-said debate as to whether or not the controversy is true. I mean "One youth pastor at Saddleback was recently convicted of behaving inappropriately with twins who were also members of the church in a movie theater." One or two sentences telling me what the facts are. That is all I want. 2601:245:C100:AAD0:35EA:6B43:4264:675B ( talk) 14:14, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Church Leadership wrong on Female pastors. 1 Timothy 2. 2601:5C5:4302:26E0:15C2:3C9C:6F01:A14B ( talk) 18:04, 11 June 2023 (UTC)