This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I just finished writing the section on Powell's speech. Earlier I described the Bush Administration as holding to the minority view that Saddam and al-Qaeda had a working relationship. But after working through the Powell speech before the UN, I have to wonder if I am correct. Powell points out several contacts and limited agreement. According to the Senate Report, everything Powell said was vetted and approved by the CIA who hold the majority position. The big difference seemed to be that Powell went out of his way to distance himself from the majority view that Saddam and al-Qaeda would not work together for ideological reasons. Powell stressed that Saddam had supported Islamic Jihad and therefore there was no reason to assume he would not support al-Qaeda. Powell highlighted some raw intelligence that would lead most people to the conclusion Saddam and al-Qaeda had a working relationship, but I am not certain he ever made the claim. It is possible the Bush Administration view is something between the majority view and the minority view. I'm wondering if we should not identify the Powell speech as the best definition of the Bush Administration position on the topic. This would leave the minority view to be held by certain members of the Intelligence Community and to journalists. It seems to me that this understanding would explain why the Bush Administration has not aggressively trumpeted the new translations of the OIF documents. Does this make sense? What are your thoughts? RonCram 16:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
csloat, I have not seen Cheney say there was no cooperation. I have seen Rumsfeld back off some of his positions. The official Admin position has not reputed the Powell speech. I did provide a link to show Powell's claim was fully vetted. If you would have bothered to read my rewrite you would have seen it. It is in the Senate Report on page 369. RonCram 13:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't see a problem with drawing potential distinctions which in practice may not be there; so long as the article makes clear that placing an individual or group in one or another category may be a problem. -- CSTAR 16:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Sloat, you need to stick with making statements you can support. Your unsupported assertions are just wrong and everyone can see it.
I gave you a link that showed the Senate committee had looked at the portion of Powell’s speech that discussed Saddam’s support for terrorism and found that it was well vetted.(Page 369 of the Senate Report) You respond by giving me two links about a portion of Powell’s speech that dealt with WMD. I had already admitted the Senate Report discussed problems with that portion of Powell’s speech. Instead of dealing with the facts you continue to make assertions you cannot back up with links.
Regarding Zarqawi, I will admit that some of more recent evidence has been contradictory. Some recently translated documents shows a link between Saddam and Zarqawi. Other documents say Saddam wanted Zarqawi arrested. This can be confusing, however both documents may be accurate. They could portray a changing relationship. As I pointed out above, Saddam supported Abu Nidal for years before having him killed. But I also have to point out that other documents show IIS picked Zarqawi up and let him go.
You claimed above that Cheney changed his view and now says there was no cooperation between Saddam and al-Qaeda, but you could not support that claim with a link. I ask you once again to deal with facts. Do not make an assertion unless you can support it with a link. Cheney's view on this important point has not changed, only Cheney's view on the Atta connection changed.
Regarding Cheney and the Bush Admin position, you have to realize that Bush is the spokesman for the Admin. Cheney is not the president. Cheney raised the possibility Saddam was involved in 9/11, but never claimed Saddam’s involvement was the reason we were going to war. You have never provided a link for this claim because you cannot. I ask you once again to deal with facts. RonCram 06:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
By the way, I responded again to your nine arguments you put forward. However, I do not see this discussion advancing if you are unwilling to provide links to your claims. Either provide a link in the future or drop the claim. RonCram 06:39, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
CSTAR, it may be possible to put together such a list but it would be too large to fit in the Intro. It could possibly have its own section "Definition of positions" or something similar. I am unclear on the meaning of "an assignment of truth values to each of the relevant assertions." Can you give me an example of what you mean exactly? RonCram 00:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the element of time, the positions have been largely static. Certainly individuals in the Bush Admin changed their view on the possibility of the Atta connection. But an openness to the idea Atta was in Prague is not the same as belief Saddam was behind 9/11. The official position of the Administration never claimed Saddam was behind 9/11 (even if Bush and other officials were privately suspicious of Saddam's involvement). I just do not see the change by Cheney and Rumsfeld as being significant enough to mention in the Intro. It could certainly be mentioned elsewhere. We have to list at least three views. The Intelligence Community's view has not changed at all. The Mylroie "false flag" view has not changed either. RonCram 00:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
this is from the New York Times [2]:
hasn't this always been the position of the bush administration? what is the confusion? Anthonymendoza 18:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Rather than responding to any of the arguments against his POV version, which is a massive rewrite of this page, Ron has continued to update that version. While I appreciate the hard work he is putting into that, I also think two things must come first: (1) a justification for a massive POV-shifting rewrite. He has asserted over and over that there are POV issues with the current version of this page, yet has failed to indicate what those issues are specifically, or why those issues cannot be addressed with specific fine tuning rather than a massive rewrite. (2) the arguments against Ron's specific version have not been addressed. Besides the nine arguments I made above, I have also offered specific reasons that the assertion of four or more perspectives on the Saddam/AQ question does not belong in the article, yet Ron continues to edit as if that were a consensus position. Ron has consistently refused to address the arguments against his version other than to press for "links," ignoring the hundreds of links that are already in the timeline. Every argument I made was based on something in the timeline. Rather than have Ron work on his own separate article, I think it would be best if we both, and anyone else who would like to be involved, work together to improve the article that exists. I also offered suggestions for a more modest rewrite, starting with issues that Ron and I agree on rather than hilighting points of disagreement that are likely to stall progress. Neither Ron nor anyone else has been willing to discuss that version at this point, although I believe that version is similar to something CSTAR proposed earlier.
I realize this page is extremely contentious given that there are two dramatically opposed POVs on this issue. One issue that will remain a sticking point is the question of how much notability to give to arguments that have been thoroughly rejected by the intelligence community, the mainstream media, and even at this point much of the Bush Administration. While it is notable that certain arguments were once embraced by the Bushies - notably, Atta in Prague, or Zarqawi as a connection between Saddam and Osama - Ron's continual assertion that these are issues that are "still being debated" are extremely misleading. I don't mind if we indicate that certain voices still support this view, but I do contest the idea that these voices should be presented as if they were as significant and notable as the resounding chorus of experts who argue in the other direction. We can count on one or two hands the number of people who still forward such claims. Ron even finds it necessary to hilight voices such as Mike Scheuer in his 2002 book, even though Scheuer has publicly stated that after conducting a study of the evidence available to the CIA between 2002 and 2004 he has come to the opposite conclusion. I feel that it is immensely dishonest to submit Scheuer's name as evidence that some intel analysts believe in a Saddam/AQ conspiracy when he has himself said that after studying the evidence he no longer believes in it.
There are a few options for proceeding forward: (1) we can take a vote on the two versions -- the current version with or without the minor changes I suggested (which I have not developed but only introduced), vs. Ron's version (which is much further developed), and be done with it. Ron and I can offer our arguments for each version and we can take a vote -- if there is consensus that Ron's version is better or less POV than the current version (with or without minor repairs), then I will back off. I think such a vote is premature, but I also sense that a lot of people are getting sick of this discussion in talk and would like to just be done with it. (2) I (and others) can start editing Ron's version. So far I have held back from making edits to Ron's version as I don't accept his contention that there is any need for such a massive rewrite to begin with, and because I don't want to get into edit wars on the talk page over a hypothetical version. Needless to say, I have very strong objections to his version (nine of which I spelled out above, and which have not been substantively answered), so the changes I would make in it would be quite significant. (3) we can put Ron's version on a separate page and I can indicate my problems with it in a footnote-style as someone suggested a week or so ago. That is a long-term process, but it is one I am willing to engage in if there is some consensus that we should let Ron's version set an agenda at this point. I would rather that Ron address the question of why he thinks such a rewrite is necessary before we get to that point, but if he is not willing to do so, I would still be willing to do this. It's not something I will be able to do overnight, however, but if that is the only way to get Ron to address my arguments against it, then so be it.
I've been trying to bend over backwards here to work with Ron on this but I refuse to compromise on issues of truth and accuracy. It is also very difficult to engage in a dialogue when the other party to the dialogue not only refuses to engage the arguments I have made but also continues to proceed as if the arguments were never made. I feel as if Ron is trying to present his new version as a fait accompli rather than discussing its merits. Again, I appreciate that he has worked very hard on that version, but I don't think it is right to steamroll ahead with it without engaging in the dialogue about it (and, indeed, without even presenting an argument as to why it is necessary to have a new version).-- csloat 15:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Below is RonCram's justification for a rewrite; I am sectioning it off like this so others can easily follow the arguments. I realize both Ron and I type a lot here, and important things have a tendency to get buried, so hopefully this will help.-- csloat 05:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
(Ron's argument): 1. The current article is strongly anti-Bush in its POV. This is contrary to wikipedia policy. The article does not in any way represent the debate that occurred inside the Intelligence Community or why the Bush Administration rejected the claim Saddam and al-Qaeda would not cooperate because of differences in ideology. You complain that my rewrite constitutes a "POV shift" and I admit that is true. A shift to NPOV is required. If you can find anything in my rewrite that is POV, I would be willing to consider any changes (as I already have with Mr. Billion).
(Ron's argument): 2. The current article is poorly written and argues with itself. Whenever evidence of a possible relationship is given, it is immediately followed with a sentence saying there is no evidence of a cooperative relationship (or the statement the CIA, NSA, DIA, et al have fully investigated the question and determined no relationship existed). The arguing within the article is annoying and muddies the issue. The rewrite is more clearly written, flows more logically and is much more readable. It lays out the facts with appropriate links to support the facts and allows the reader to research the views and make his own decisions.
(Ron's argument): 3. The rewrite is far more accurate and provides more historical information. It also provides more information about the intelligence gathering and analyzing process which is so important to understand this debate. The article in its current form is not salvageable.
Does anyone mind if I archive a lot of this page...probably into two archives? It's well over 300kb's at this point. If there are sections you prefer to not archive at this time, let me know. I'll wait at least 12 hours before I archive.-- MONGO 17:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
A former member of the Iraq Survey Group has analyzed documents gathered in Iraq after the invasion for FOX News exclusively (which has me being skeptical). Two documents, a training manual and a 1999 IIS notebook, have been translated and analyzed to show that an Arab army, possibly Iraqi, had a presence in Afghanistan before 9/11. I ask Wikipedia to examine these new allegations made by Fox News and this former ISG member. Below is the link to the Fox News article. -Amit
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,202277,00.html
I have started the Atta in Prague document based on what is in the timeline here. I think it's a good idea to break out the longer sections of the timeline into their own articles so that the information is more readable.-- csloat 05:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Anthony has made a large number of edits to the timeline that involve adding quotes from articles and putting those dates in the timeline. I have stayed out of it up until now, but there is something extremely problematic and even deceptive about these edits. First, the timeline dates should indicate dates something important is said to have occurred, regardless of the date of the article. The problem with Anthony's approach is that we have the same information duplicated several times over (e.g. Hijazi meetings, Zarqawi's alleged treatment in Baghdad for a leg that turned out never to have been broken, etc.) This is deceptive because many of these claims are answered in other parts of the timeline - Anthony's approach allows for the information to be re-asserted without the response, so a reader who glances only at parts of the timeline will not realize, for example, that Zarqawi's leg was never broken, that Abu Wa'el was most likely a spy rather than a "negotiator," etc. It is not practical to have information repeated all over the timeline like this, and accuracy requires that if anthony wants to add another paragraph re-asserting the abu wael claim, that he also include the response to that claim (for example). Second, the timeline could be expanded indefinitely in this approach -- I am a little concerned that it is becoming completely useless. After all, hundreds of articles have come out indicating that there is no link between Saddam and al Qaeda -- should I add each one to the timeline independently with a date? I'm going to ask that Anthony undo his recent edits and add the information that is necessary according to the dates when events occurred rather than articles were published. Rather than rushing to add every vague quote in here -- and some of these quotes are pretty vague -- add the information where it is necessary. Use the "find" function on your browser, you will find that many of the claims you are adding already exist on the timeline! If the quote adds no new information, leave it out; if it adds something important, put that information in only and link the article. Thanks!-- csloat 00:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I just finished writing the section on Powell's speech. Earlier I described the Bush Administration as holding to the minority view that Saddam and al-Qaeda had a working relationship. But after working through the Powell speech before the UN, I have to wonder if I am correct. Powell points out several contacts and limited agreement. According to the Senate Report, everything Powell said was vetted and approved by the CIA who hold the majority position. The big difference seemed to be that Powell went out of his way to distance himself from the majority view that Saddam and al-Qaeda would not work together for ideological reasons. Powell stressed that Saddam had supported Islamic Jihad and therefore there was no reason to assume he would not support al-Qaeda. Powell highlighted some raw intelligence that would lead most people to the conclusion Saddam and al-Qaeda had a working relationship, but I am not certain he ever made the claim. It is possible the Bush Administration view is something between the majority view and the minority view. I'm wondering if we should not identify the Powell speech as the best definition of the Bush Administration position on the topic. This would leave the minority view to be held by certain members of the Intelligence Community and to journalists. It seems to me that this understanding would explain why the Bush Administration has not aggressively trumpeted the new translations of the OIF documents. Does this make sense? What are your thoughts? RonCram 16:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
csloat, I have not seen Cheney say there was no cooperation. I have seen Rumsfeld back off some of his positions. The official Admin position has not reputed the Powell speech. I did provide a link to show Powell's claim was fully vetted. If you would have bothered to read my rewrite you would have seen it. It is in the Senate Report on page 369. RonCram 13:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't see a problem with drawing potential distinctions which in practice may not be there; so long as the article makes clear that placing an individual or group in one or another category may be a problem. -- CSTAR 16:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Sloat, you need to stick with making statements you can support. Your unsupported assertions are just wrong and everyone can see it.
I gave you a link that showed the Senate committee had looked at the portion of Powell’s speech that discussed Saddam’s support for terrorism and found that it was well vetted.(Page 369 of the Senate Report) You respond by giving me two links about a portion of Powell’s speech that dealt with WMD. I had already admitted the Senate Report discussed problems with that portion of Powell’s speech. Instead of dealing with the facts you continue to make assertions you cannot back up with links.
Regarding Zarqawi, I will admit that some of more recent evidence has been contradictory. Some recently translated documents shows a link between Saddam and Zarqawi. Other documents say Saddam wanted Zarqawi arrested. This can be confusing, however both documents may be accurate. They could portray a changing relationship. As I pointed out above, Saddam supported Abu Nidal for years before having him killed. But I also have to point out that other documents show IIS picked Zarqawi up and let him go.
You claimed above that Cheney changed his view and now says there was no cooperation between Saddam and al-Qaeda, but you could not support that claim with a link. I ask you once again to deal with facts. Do not make an assertion unless you can support it with a link. Cheney's view on this important point has not changed, only Cheney's view on the Atta connection changed.
Regarding Cheney and the Bush Admin position, you have to realize that Bush is the spokesman for the Admin. Cheney is not the president. Cheney raised the possibility Saddam was involved in 9/11, but never claimed Saddam’s involvement was the reason we were going to war. You have never provided a link for this claim because you cannot. I ask you once again to deal with facts. RonCram 06:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
By the way, I responded again to your nine arguments you put forward. However, I do not see this discussion advancing if you are unwilling to provide links to your claims. Either provide a link in the future or drop the claim. RonCram 06:39, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
CSTAR, it may be possible to put together such a list but it would be too large to fit in the Intro. It could possibly have its own section "Definition of positions" or something similar. I am unclear on the meaning of "an assignment of truth values to each of the relevant assertions." Can you give me an example of what you mean exactly? RonCram 00:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the element of time, the positions have been largely static. Certainly individuals in the Bush Admin changed their view on the possibility of the Atta connection. But an openness to the idea Atta was in Prague is not the same as belief Saddam was behind 9/11. The official position of the Administration never claimed Saddam was behind 9/11 (even if Bush and other officials were privately suspicious of Saddam's involvement). I just do not see the change by Cheney and Rumsfeld as being significant enough to mention in the Intro. It could certainly be mentioned elsewhere. We have to list at least three views. The Intelligence Community's view has not changed at all. The Mylroie "false flag" view has not changed either. RonCram 00:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
this is from the New York Times [2]:
hasn't this always been the position of the bush administration? what is the confusion? Anthonymendoza 18:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Rather than responding to any of the arguments against his POV version, which is a massive rewrite of this page, Ron has continued to update that version. While I appreciate the hard work he is putting into that, I also think two things must come first: (1) a justification for a massive POV-shifting rewrite. He has asserted over and over that there are POV issues with the current version of this page, yet has failed to indicate what those issues are specifically, or why those issues cannot be addressed with specific fine tuning rather than a massive rewrite. (2) the arguments against Ron's specific version have not been addressed. Besides the nine arguments I made above, I have also offered specific reasons that the assertion of four or more perspectives on the Saddam/AQ question does not belong in the article, yet Ron continues to edit as if that were a consensus position. Ron has consistently refused to address the arguments against his version other than to press for "links," ignoring the hundreds of links that are already in the timeline. Every argument I made was based on something in the timeline. Rather than have Ron work on his own separate article, I think it would be best if we both, and anyone else who would like to be involved, work together to improve the article that exists. I also offered suggestions for a more modest rewrite, starting with issues that Ron and I agree on rather than hilighting points of disagreement that are likely to stall progress. Neither Ron nor anyone else has been willing to discuss that version at this point, although I believe that version is similar to something CSTAR proposed earlier.
I realize this page is extremely contentious given that there are two dramatically opposed POVs on this issue. One issue that will remain a sticking point is the question of how much notability to give to arguments that have been thoroughly rejected by the intelligence community, the mainstream media, and even at this point much of the Bush Administration. While it is notable that certain arguments were once embraced by the Bushies - notably, Atta in Prague, or Zarqawi as a connection between Saddam and Osama - Ron's continual assertion that these are issues that are "still being debated" are extremely misleading. I don't mind if we indicate that certain voices still support this view, but I do contest the idea that these voices should be presented as if they were as significant and notable as the resounding chorus of experts who argue in the other direction. We can count on one or two hands the number of people who still forward such claims. Ron even finds it necessary to hilight voices such as Mike Scheuer in his 2002 book, even though Scheuer has publicly stated that after conducting a study of the evidence available to the CIA between 2002 and 2004 he has come to the opposite conclusion. I feel that it is immensely dishonest to submit Scheuer's name as evidence that some intel analysts believe in a Saddam/AQ conspiracy when he has himself said that after studying the evidence he no longer believes in it.
There are a few options for proceeding forward: (1) we can take a vote on the two versions -- the current version with or without the minor changes I suggested (which I have not developed but only introduced), vs. Ron's version (which is much further developed), and be done with it. Ron and I can offer our arguments for each version and we can take a vote -- if there is consensus that Ron's version is better or less POV than the current version (with or without minor repairs), then I will back off. I think such a vote is premature, but I also sense that a lot of people are getting sick of this discussion in talk and would like to just be done with it. (2) I (and others) can start editing Ron's version. So far I have held back from making edits to Ron's version as I don't accept his contention that there is any need for such a massive rewrite to begin with, and because I don't want to get into edit wars on the talk page over a hypothetical version. Needless to say, I have very strong objections to his version (nine of which I spelled out above, and which have not been substantively answered), so the changes I would make in it would be quite significant. (3) we can put Ron's version on a separate page and I can indicate my problems with it in a footnote-style as someone suggested a week or so ago. That is a long-term process, but it is one I am willing to engage in if there is some consensus that we should let Ron's version set an agenda at this point. I would rather that Ron address the question of why he thinks such a rewrite is necessary before we get to that point, but if he is not willing to do so, I would still be willing to do this. It's not something I will be able to do overnight, however, but if that is the only way to get Ron to address my arguments against it, then so be it.
I've been trying to bend over backwards here to work with Ron on this but I refuse to compromise on issues of truth and accuracy. It is also very difficult to engage in a dialogue when the other party to the dialogue not only refuses to engage the arguments I have made but also continues to proceed as if the arguments were never made. I feel as if Ron is trying to present his new version as a fait accompli rather than discussing its merits. Again, I appreciate that he has worked very hard on that version, but I don't think it is right to steamroll ahead with it without engaging in the dialogue about it (and, indeed, without even presenting an argument as to why it is necessary to have a new version).-- csloat 15:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Below is RonCram's justification for a rewrite; I am sectioning it off like this so others can easily follow the arguments. I realize both Ron and I type a lot here, and important things have a tendency to get buried, so hopefully this will help.-- csloat 05:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
(Ron's argument): 1. The current article is strongly anti-Bush in its POV. This is contrary to wikipedia policy. The article does not in any way represent the debate that occurred inside the Intelligence Community or why the Bush Administration rejected the claim Saddam and al-Qaeda would not cooperate because of differences in ideology. You complain that my rewrite constitutes a "POV shift" and I admit that is true. A shift to NPOV is required. If you can find anything in my rewrite that is POV, I would be willing to consider any changes (as I already have with Mr. Billion).
(Ron's argument): 2. The current article is poorly written and argues with itself. Whenever evidence of a possible relationship is given, it is immediately followed with a sentence saying there is no evidence of a cooperative relationship (or the statement the CIA, NSA, DIA, et al have fully investigated the question and determined no relationship existed). The arguing within the article is annoying and muddies the issue. The rewrite is more clearly written, flows more logically and is much more readable. It lays out the facts with appropriate links to support the facts and allows the reader to research the views and make his own decisions.
(Ron's argument): 3. The rewrite is far more accurate and provides more historical information. It also provides more information about the intelligence gathering and analyzing process which is so important to understand this debate. The article in its current form is not salvageable.
Does anyone mind if I archive a lot of this page...probably into two archives? It's well over 300kb's at this point. If there are sections you prefer to not archive at this time, let me know. I'll wait at least 12 hours before I archive.-- MONGO 17:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
A former member of the Iraq Survey Group has analyzed documents gathered in Iraq after the invasion for FOX News exclusively (which has me being skeptical). Two documents, a training manual and a 1999 IIS notebook, have been translated and analyzed to show that an Arab army, possibly Iraqi, had a presence in Afghanistan before 9/11. I ask Wikipedia to examine these new allegations made by Fox News and this former ISG member. Below is the link to the Fox News article. -Amit
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,202277,00.html
I have started the Atta in Prague document based on what is in the timeline here. I think it's a good idea to break out the longer sections of the timeline into their own articles so that the information is more readable.-- csloat 05:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Anthony has made a large number of edits to the timeline that involve adding quotes from articles and putting those dates in the timeline. I have stayed out of it up until now, but there is something extremely problematic and even deceptive about these edits. First, the timeline dates should indicate dates something important is said to have occurred, regardless of the date of the article. The problem with Anthony's approach is that we have the same information duplicated several times over (e.g. Hijazi meetings, Zarqawi's alleged treatment in Baghdad for a leg that turned out never to have been broken, etc.) This is deceptive because many of these claims are answered in other parts of the timeline - Anthony's approach allows for the information to be re-asserted without the response, so a reader who glances only at parts of the timeline will not realize, for example, that Zarqawi's leg was never broken, that Abu Wa'el was most likely a spy rather than a "negotiator," etc. It is not practical to have information repeated all over the timeline like this, and accuracy requires that if anthony wants to add another paragraph re-asserting the abu wael claim, that he also include the response to that claim (for example). Second, the timeline could be expanded indefinitely in this approach -- I am a little concerned that it is becoming completely useless. After all, hundreds of articles have come out indicating that there is no link between Saddam and al Qaeda -- should I add each one to the timeline independently with a date? I'm going to ask that Anthony undo his recent edits and add the information that is necessary according to the dates when events occurred rather than articles were published. Rather than rushing to add every vague quote in here -- and some of these quotes are pretty vague -- add the information where it is necessary. Use the "find" function on your browser, you will find that many of the claims you are adding already exist on the timeline! If the quote adds no new information, leave it out; if it adds something important, put that information in only and link the article. Thanks!-- csloat 00:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)