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From a recent Zogby poll: "While 85% said the U.S. mission is mainly 'to retaliate for Saddam’s role in the 9-11 attacks,' 77% said they also believe the main or a major reason for the war was 'to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq.'" Not sure where to put this information though, or if it even belongs here. It's also not clear whether they actually believe the disinformation though; the same poll found that "An overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and nearly one in four say the troops should leave immediately." [1]
no one has taken the time to break it up cuz it's a piece. skizzno logic3.1 08:19, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
"The story of Saddam training foreign fighters to hijack airplanes was instrumental in building the case to invade Iraq," a detailed report in the March-April issue says. "But it turns out that the Iraqi general who told the story to the New York Times and 'Frontline' was a complete fake a low-ranking former soldier whom Ahmed Chalabi's aides had coached to deceive the media." [2]-- Nomen Nescio 15:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
to shorten the article the Statements could be moved here--> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda thoughts?
-- Whywhywhy 13:29, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not going to enter a revert war over this, but I think it is pretty silly to censor the word "conservative" when it appears in valid places (CNSNews, for example, is an openly conservative source. I had a nice talk with David Thibault, for example, and he seemed to feel no shame about calling himself or his news outlet "conservative.") It's strange, though amusing, that TDC finds enough shame in the label that he would need to censor it for fear of "poisoning the well." I think it does belong here in some places such as the CNSNews stuff, it isn't necessary in others (like the sentence describing Robert Novak). But I'm not going to insist on it -- congratulations, Mr. Dead Chickens (or Curmudgeon, or whatever it is you want us to call you this week); you "win."-- csloat 06:21, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
The recently added stuff from Investor's Business Daily is mentioned as if it were a document written by Saddam's secret service. It is actually a web page from the FAS that was based on information from 1997; the summary was likely written by John Pike or another FAS writer. It is interesting information but hardly new and certainly not the "manual for Saddam's spy service" that the Investor's Business writer thinks it is. This should be obvious, as the freaking document has the FAS information all over it. The reason this is included in the stash is the web page was found printed out with arabic writing on the printout -- there is no indication on the leavenworth website what the arabic writing means, nor is there any information about the significance of the document. This illustrates a problem with Hoekstra's proposal to let the blogosphere determine the significance of these documents -- a lot of morons will say a lot of stupid things about them. (Don't get me wrong, I support them being released too, but I don't think we should trust everything some random person says about them, no matter how official sounding their blog title is). I think this section should be removed from the article until we have some real information about what the Arabic writing is on the document; as it is the entry is sheer misinformation.-- csloat 20:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure why the neocons who edit this page think it is so important to censor the first sentence in the following two:
The second sentence doesn't make a lot of sense without the first explaining the timing issue. TDC has deleted the source for the first sentence (where the "too good to be true" quote is from) since he doesn't like sourcewatch (even though it is edited by known experts in public relations and media studies). I don't disagree with his reasoning; sourcewatch is a wiki, so anyone could edit it, but there is no reason to eliminate the sentence indicating why the timing of the documents is suspect. In fact the quote "too good to be true" in connection to these documents has been used by bloggers across the political spectrum, so Silverback's deletion of it is ludicrous. I added the {{ Fact}} tag but people like Silverback and TDC prefer to delete information they don't agree with rather than doing research to find out if there is counter-information. This is disruptive of wikipedia. I am returning the sentence with the fact tag; if someone wants to pick a citation from the above google search or find another one from a published source, that would be great, and if you want to change it, fine, but don't just delete the sentence, as it provides context for the sentence that follows. Sometimes basic readability issues are more important than legitimating your POV.-- csloat 20:17, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
TDC, it's obvious this is very personal for you, and that you see this as a way of continuing your harrassment of me, so I will just back off. I have no further interest in this revert war; it's clear you are just using this crap to bait me, and I don't have time for it. I have stated clearly why blogs are relevant for the limited claim being made. The CNS news article is blown way out of proportion on this page, since there is not a single reputable news source that will even acknowledge the absurd claims they make. Blogs are relevant as a measure of opinions about the topic. Now we have a sentence about the National Review article that makes no sense because there is no indication why the "timing" would be an issue -- that is what I meant by providing context here. But I'm sick of your bullying; I will leave it to other editors to address the readability and comprehensibility issues here.-- csloat 22:58, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
PS thanks for the warning, anon, I believe you are correct.-- csloat 22:58, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Please help me understand what's being disputed. The view that Mylroie's documents might be an 'October Surprise'? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
This article contains much factual content, but its all skewed. The very first section is a criticism of the alleged connection. So basically the allegations are being criticized before they're even presented. There is no counter-section that summarizes the supporter's allegations. It's all criticism. Except for the pre-intelligence report, which is conveniently placed at the end of the article.
Hypocrisy strikes again. CJK 01:44, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Forget it man. You have no understanding of NPOV if you think that it's OK to immediately jump into criticizing the issue before its even presented. I will not be replying to this any more if your goal is just to insult me. CJK 15:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
This article quotes Ackerman as saying that Ansar Al Islam was being protected by U.S. warplanes. This is simply untrue. The Northern no-fly zone was many miles north of the area under their control. no fly zones, Ansar Al-Islam. CJK 15:31, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
The point is that Ansar Al-Islam was not under "Kurdish control" and that any "protection" they received was purely coincidental. CJK 21:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
That point is not in conflict with Ackerman. He did not say Ansar Al-Islam was, he said the region was. Therefore, a non-issue. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
There has been a long debate about the link between Saddam and Osama. Newly released documents, the Operation Iraqi Freedom Documents, show that the link was real. Additional information is coming out almost everyday. I have made a small entry in the Introduction only. The page is behind times and I am too busy to keep it up myself. I am hoping some editors are willing to step forward and clean up this article. RonCram 08:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Ryan, you make some strange claims.
The article also talks about 9/11 Commission member Bob Kerry:
I'm tired of all the trash-talking about the Weekly Standard. Here are direct quotes in praise of Weekly Standard. "The preeminent political journal in America." —Slate.com
"The oracle of American politics" —CNN's Wolf Blitzer
"...The Weekly Standard has become a forceful presence in the world of political opinion...It is the most intelligent, aggressive and well-written publication out there." —National Journal
"Has The Weekly Standard become the most powerful magazine, Mara?" "Brit, it certainly has." —exchange between anchorman Brit Hume and reporter Mara Liasson, Fox News Channel
"The Standard's editors have inaugurated one of the most interesting Beltway debates in years." —The New Republic
"DC's opinion makers are reading The Weekly Standard." —PRWEEK
"[The Weekly Standard] is the magazine I get most grumpy about when it's not delivered." —Abe Rosenthal, former editor, The New York Times
"I don't think you can do without it if you want to know what's going on in Washington." —Robert Novak
"Widespread reaction to the editorial proved that of the roughly 65,000 people who read the Standard each week, many are what you might call important." —GQ Magazine
"The Weekly Standard is required reading up here. You have to see it to be a part of the conversation." —John Kasich, former House Budget Committee Chair
"[One of] Washington's better read political magazines" —The Economist
"The Weekly Standard is a must-read for people in Washington." —Jack Nelson, The Los Angeles Times
"The Weekly Standard [has] the advantage of possessing...editors whose insights and arguments are uncommonly provocative...[They] know Washington, know politics and have demonstrated over the years a rare capacity for civil and unusually sensible argument and analysis." —David Broder, The Washington Post
"...you speak in two very influential pulpits. You're on television a lot of the time...and you're the editor of an influential magazine." —Peter Jennings, ABC News [live interview with William Kristol]
"The Weekly Standard is a 'must read' for anyone interested in American politics and American life." —William J. Bennett
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:RonCram"
The 'Operation Iraqi Freedom documents' allegations and citations are not fact. There is no verification of the documents on which they are based:
So therefore the text as revert warred, which contains examples of third-party claims 'X claims Y' masked as factual, first hand assertions of 'Y is', is unverifiable. To represent these claims as fact is an outright and blatant falsehood, and a vulgar misuse of Wikipedia. Revert warring won't make it factual, any more than circular citations will. Keep the propaganda out.
When and if the documents are verified and the allegations they contained are corroborated, the talking points brought here will be valid - in the meantime, they are fetid and reek of misinformation. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Below is the current text, edited by Ryan:
I think this is an improvement over the Roncram&Co. version (nice of you to invite your friends to your little edit war, by the way, sometimes using language that makes it clear this is all a game of annoy-the-liberals to you rather than a somewhat serious endeavor to discuss issues accurately). However there are a couple of things I don't understand: (1) Why is the Zubaydah document mentioned in the introduction to this piece? There is no indication this document ties Zubaydah to Iraq in any way. It is likely a speech or writing by Zubaydah that was published on an al Qaeda website that was printed out by an Iraqi bureaucrat, just like the FAS web site from 1997 that was copied in another document (and was wrongly interpreted by right-wing bloggers as a Mukhabarat manual even though it had the FAS logo on it). It is just plain scaremongering to put it in here (especially in the intro!), especially given that this document has not yet been the topic of speculation even in the Weakly Standard or even CNSNews. (2) The claim that "Eight months after an alleged offer of operational partnership, U.S. forces in the region were attacked by al-Qaeda operatives" is also scaremongering without substance. If we want to say the NYSun speculates that one of the documents makes this suggestion we might be closer to something, but we also need to make clear that the alleged "offer of operational partnership" was based on a meeting in 1995, and that we know that the talks between the two parties ended by 1998. We should also add for context the fact that nobody has ever even suggested Iraq was involved in the attacks 8 months later and that no evidence ever materialized of such an Iraqi connection. Mentioning one without the other is a flagrant example of invalid post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning. (3) Bob Kerrey's change of heart is not an appropriate topic for the intro. This is about Saddam and AQ, not Bob Kerrey. If you feel it is important, let's have it in the timeline rather than the intro. Finally, I want to ask those of you who have come late to RonCram's little edit war party to please take note of the fact that his claim on your user pages that we are trying to censor information about these documents is mendacious. I have in fact inserted information on these documents into several places in the timeline over the last week, as is easily verified by a glance at the edit history. I have included information on both sides of the debate, contrary to RonCram's assertion that I am POV-pushing. I even included quotes from the Weakly Standard in my edits! It is completely disingenuous for me or Ryan to be accused of trying to suppress this information -- we have been insisting only that these issues be discussed in a level-headed manner. The additions Ron made to the page were not level headed. And his edit war on the page about the OIF Documents themselves is actually about him trying to suppress information, not me or Ryan. Look, there will be different points of view on these issues, but trying to raise group interest in an edit war is juvenile and futile. We would be a lot better off if we focused on improving the articles rather than trying to start edit wars with people we don't like. I myself have wasted way too much time on this edit war that would be better spent reading the IPP study, which has been released, and incorporating the relevant information on these pages.-- csloat 06:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC) I've made a couple additions to the passage in question but I have not yet deleted the stuff about Zubaydah, the 8 month post hoc fallacious comment, and the Bob Kerrey material; I'd like to see what others have to say about this before deleting anything.-- csloat 07:01, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, csloat, I did invite some other editors to visit the page. I was tired of having you and Ryan tag team me in a ridiculous edit war designed to keep facts from readers. And it worked. We now have an entry that mentions the documents. It is cumbersome, redundant and poorly worded but it is much to be preferred over the silence imposed by Ryan and encouraged by you. However, I am bothered that you feel the need to stalk my contributions to other users talk pages. I have often wondered about you stalking me to other pages in the past but always tried to think the best of you. But when I see other editors complain of your stalking and then experience it myself, you make it difficult to give you the benefit of the doubt. In addition, I see that you still wish to delete well-sourced information - Zubaydah, the 8 month post and Bob Kerry. Have you changed your mind on the Kerry portion? Earlier you said you didn't mind posting his comments. And why would you want to delete the 8 month post when this was brought up by ABC News? RonCram 13:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I do think that accusing someone of "stalking" is likely to cause offense. In addition, the behavior RonCram is denouncing in csloat is a natural response to the sort of behavior where you go from place to place repeating things to popularize an idea. -- Mr. Billion 21:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Given this page's >100kb size, at the moment, would there be some agreement to have two entries? One for Saddam and AQ in general and one for Saddam & AQ & links to the 9/11 attacks. Just a thought as to how to get this thing into something manageable... Benny the Beaver 00:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I suggest making the Timeline a separate article. The main article should be an overview. The Timeline fleshes that out with detail. Derex 18:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
TDC made some edits to the prague connection section, and he apparently believes that there is truth to the claim even though Cheney himself has backed off of it. His claim that the BIS still stands by the claim is not supported by the evidence he offers. Here is the offending line:
The line used to read that Ruzek "continued to give credence to the report in 2003. [12]," which is supported by the slate article. I looked through the 2005 Opinion Journal piece that he added but I do not see any evidence that any of these people "continue to stand by the claim." I doubt that they do. The opinion journal piece indicates Ruzek threw the ball in the CIA's court, making it seem as though he is happy not to have to deal with that issue any more. Which is understandable; the article says he was furious that the Americans leaked what he considered raw intelligence that had not been verified, and of course it is well known that the Czechs being wrong about this became a political issue there. I have not changed this section back yet in case I am missing something -- can TDC explain where in the WSJ piece it substantiates that these guys still stand by the claim, which every other intel agency in the world considers false? It's pretty clear the whole thing is a huge embarrassment for the BIS, who seem to think the claim should never have been made public. James Risen notes that the whole thing "emerges as a complex Central European tale of political infighting among Czech leaders and feuding between rival intelligence services, topped off by a series of simple blunders and overheated statements that inadvertently fueled an American debate involving war and peace." (NYT 10/21/02). No responsible journalist seems to take the disputed claim seriously anymore. If there really is recent evidence to suggest someone still supporting the story, I'd like to see it. I also think we may need a separate page for this claim (even though I was originally against a "Prague Connection" page). -- csloat 03:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Is this entire article disputed, or can the dispute be handled under a section npov tag? Can anyone tell me what the top one or two NPOV disputes are? Scanned current talk page, but archives are _long_. Derex 18:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please explain how it improves the intro to have information about Scheuer in there? His 2002 book was never cited in relation to the Saddam/AQ connection in any news source at all until well after he wrote his 2004 book and was asked about it on a talk show. There seems to be no reason to include this paragraph in the introduction to this page, since it is not at all more than a footnote to this story. Perhaps on the timeline there is a place for it, if someone thinks it's important in some way? If someone can enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.-- csloat 07:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
csloat, the point here is that the existence and extent of a possible relationship between Saddam and al-Qaeda is a controversial subject. It was debated inside the Intelligence Community from the mid 1990s until now. I am not blaming the DIA for faulty analysis. I am siding with the DIA in blaming the CIA for faulty analysis (and not all the CIA - I think Scheuer was right in 2002). You are right the DIA analyst did not use the colorful term "pure crap." My memory was faulty. The DIA analyst says the CIA conclusions "should be ignored." The Secretary of Defense and Under Secretary of Defense for Policy were unsatisfied with work performed by CIA analysts and requested the Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency to assess intelligence reporting by CIA analysts. The DIA analyst assigned to the task reviewed the CIA product “Iraq and al-Qaida: Interpreting a Murky Relationship” and wrote:
csloat, the DIA analyst points to "numerous" sources over a decade. You are incorrect in assuming the evidence related only to al-Libi. BTW, there are many people in the Intelligence Community who believe al-Libi was telling the truth the first time and is lying now. The fact this relationship has been debated for years prior to and after 9/11 should not be kept from wikipedia readers.
At the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, I will repeat myself again. The Scheuer info has to be in the Introduction because it introduces to the reader the fact that this is a controversial subject. Wikipedia does not avoid controversial subjects, it discusses why the subject is controversial. RonCram 05:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
News reports indicate that the Bush Administration was getting competing analysis of the relationship between Saddam and al-Qaeda during the leadup to the Iraq war -- the analysis of the CIA, which had found no credible evidence of collaboration, and the analysis of a "circle of neoconservatives" without professional intelligence experience operating out of the Pentagon and the Vice President's Office, who reviewed some of the evidence that had been examined by the CIA and reached the opposite conclusion.[8]
It is not the opinion of one reporter. It is a well established fact. The OSP is not the myth of some axe-grinders! It actually existed, and nobody disputes that the people involved are a circle of neoconservatives.-- csloat 18:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The point that needs to be made is that this is a controversial subject. The article itself provides interesting insight into the controversy even if the writer does use somewhat inflammatory language with "circle of neoconservatives." The point is that the Bush Administration was getting raw intelligence reports and analysis that indicated a cooperative relationship existed. RonCram 01:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
This has gotten out of control. I think it is imperative that anyone wishing to add POV material to the intro should first read the rest of the timeline. I have made corrections (and left out the so-called "slur" the anon objected to), but this is just going to go on forever. I would be happy to take this disputed material out of the intro entirely and go back to how it was a few days ago; otherwise, if others keep adding junk that is already discussed in the timeline I will have to keep adding the context. Perhaps a separate section for the Office of Special Plans would be useful here. I really don't think this stuff belongs in the intro at all; soon the intro will be as long as the timeline if people keep adding things. A clear and simple summary of the controversy and the conclusions of major investigations is fine. (By the way, I removed the fact tag on the CIA claim since the NPR cite confirms it; it is also confirmed below in the timeline.)
Anon editor, if you are reading the talk page, can you please enter dialogue here rather than making drive-by edits? Thanks.-- csloat 16:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone added the NPOV tag a while ago but I see nothing in talk justifying it. If someone wants to add that tag, please explain in Talk what the NPOV problem is and how it can be remedied. That way the tag does not become the default state of the article. Also, it is better to use the tag on a particular section that has a problem rather than the whole article (esp with an article of this size). Thanks.-- csloat 19:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
An anon editor keeps changing the intro offering cryptic edit summaries and refusing to respond in talk about these changes. I do not wish to have a revert war over this, but some of the changes are incorrect. The CIA made very clear that its analysts believed there was no evidence of a Saddam/AQ connection. The Dec 9 2005 NYT article states clearly that the DIA concluded that al-Libi "was intentionally misleading his debriefers." The intel based on Libi's statements was withdrawn publicly by the CIA in March 2004. The anon editor seems intent on creating a false impression with the intro, as if al-Libi's testimony were still considered credible. As far as I can tell, there is nobody on earth who believes it is, certainly nobody in CIA or DIA. I'd like to once again ask the anon editor to explain him/herself. It would also be nice if s/he would sign in and participate in the dialogue on this page rather than continuing drive-by POV edits.-- csloat 22:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
(precise CIA action) 75.3.203.207 22:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a poll going on at the Iraq War article that is related to this article. You can add your vote here: [13] -- Mr. Tibbs 05:06, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
i'm new to this page, so i didn't want to make any edits without knowing if a consensus had been reached through debate with regards to the intro paragraph. the first sentence is followed by five links, plus the sentence contains a link as well. six links in the opening sentence is a bit odd to me. is there a reason for this? also, why is a reference to the "downing street memo" in the intro? i think the intro could be rewritten and simplified. thoughts? Anthonymendoza 21:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
this section desperately needs to be rewritten. it's incoherent. i'll get the ball rolling. Anthonymendoza 17:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
From a recent Zogby poll: "While 85% said the U.S. mission is mainly 'to retaliate for Saddam’s role in the 9-11 attacks,' 77% said they also believe the main or a major reason for the war was 'to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq.'" Not sure where to put this information though, or if it even belongs here. It's also not clear whether they actually believe the disinformation though; the same poll found that "An overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and nearly one in four say the troops should leave immediately." [1]
no one has taken the time to break it up cuz it's a piece. skizzno logic3.1 08:19, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
"The story of Saddam training foreign fighters to hijack airplanes was instrumental in building the case to invade Iraq," a detailed report in the March-April issue says. "But it turns out that the Iraqi general who told the story to the New York Times and 'Frontline' was a complete fake a low-ranking former soldier whom Ahmed Chalabi's aides had coached to deceive the media." [2]-- Nomen Nescio 15:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
to shorten the article the Statements could be moved here--> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda thoughts?
-- Whywhywhy 13:29, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not going to enter a revert war over this, but I think it is pretty silly to censor the word "conservative" when it appears in valid places (CNSNews, for example, is an openly conservative source. I had a nice talk with David Thibault, for example, and he seemed to feel no shame about calling himself or his news outlet "conservative.") It's strange, though amusing, that TDC finds enough shame in the label that he would need to censor it for fear of "poisoning the well." I think it does belong here in some places such as the CNSNews stuff, it isn't necessary in others (like the sentence describing Robert Novak). But I'm not going to insist on it -- congratulations, Mr. Dead Chickens (or Curmudgeon, or whatever it is you want us to call you this week); you "win."-- csloat 06:21, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
The recently added stuff from Investor's Business Daily is mentioned as if it were a document written by Saddam's secret service. It is actually a web page from the FAS that was based on information from 1997; the summary was likely written by John Pike or another FAS writer. It is interesting information but hardly new and certainly not the "manual for Saddam's spy service" that the Investor's Business writer thinks it is. This should be obvious, as the freaking document has the FAS information all over it. The reason this is included in the stash is the web page was found printed out with arabic writing on the printout -- there is no indication on the leavenworth website what the arabic writing means, nor is there any information about the significance of the document. This illustrates a problem with Hoekstra's proposal to let the blogosphere determine the significance of these documents -- a lot of morons will say a lot of stupid things about them. (Don't get me wrong, I support them being released too, but I don't think we should trust everything some random person says about them, no matter how official sounding their blog title is). I think this section should be removed from the article until we have some real information about what the Arabic writing is on the document; as it is the entry is sheer misinformation.-- csloat 20:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure why the neocons who edit this page think it is so important to censor the first sentence in the following two:
The second sentence doesn't make a lot of sense without the first explaining the timing issue. TDC has deleted the source for the first sentence (where the "too good to be true" quote is from) since he doesn't like sourcewatch (even though it is edited by known experts in public relations and media studies). I don't disagree with his reasoning; sourcewatch is a wiki, so anyone could edit it, but there is no reason to eliminate the sentence indicating why the timing of the documents is suspect. In fact the quote "too good to be true" in connection to these documents has been used by bloggers across the political spectrum, so Silverback's deletion of it is ludicrous. I added the {{ Fact}} tag but people like Silverback and TDC prefer to delete information they don't agree with rather than doing research to find out if there is counter-information. This is disruptive of wikipedia. I am returning the sentence with the fact tag; if someone wants to pick a citation from the above google search or find another one from a published source, that would be great, and if you want to change it, fine, but don't just delete the sentence, as it provides context for the sentence that follows. Sometimes basic readability issues are more important than legitimating your POV.-- csloat 20:17, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
TDC, it's obvious this is very personal for you, and that you see this as a way of continuing your harrassment of me, so I will just back off. I have no further interest in this revert war; it's clear you are just using this crap to bait me, and I don't have time for it. I have stated clearly why blogs are relevant for the limited claim being made. The CNS news article is blown way out of proportion on this page, since there is not a single reputable news source that will even acknowledge the absurd claims they make. Blogs are relevant as a measure of opinions about the topic. Now we have a sentence about the National Review article that makes no sense because there is no indication why the "timing" would be an issue -- that is what I meant by providing context here. But I'm sick of your bullying; I will leave it to other editors to address the readability and comprehensibility issues here.-- csloat 22:58, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
PS thanks for the warning, anon, I believe you are correct.-- csloat 22:58, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Please help me understand what's being disputed. The view that Mylroie's documents might be an 'October Surprise'? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
This article contains much factual content, but its all skewed. The very first section is a criticism of the alleged connection. So basically the allegations are being criticized before they're even presented. There is no counter-section that summarizes the supporter's allegations. It's all criticism. Except for the pre-intelligence report, which is conveniently placed at the end of the article.
Hypocrisy strikes again. CJK 01:44, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Forget it man. You have no understanding of NPOV if you think that it's OK to immediately jump into criticizing the issue before its even presented. I will not be replying to this any more if your goal is just to insult me. CJK 15:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
This article quotes Ackerman as saying that Ansar Al Islam was being protected by U.S. warplanes. This is simply untrue. The Northern no-fly zone was many miles north of the area under their control. no fly zones, Ansar Al-Islam. CJK 15:31, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
The point is that Ansar Al-Islam was not under "Kurdish control" and that any "protection" they received was purely coincidental. CJK 21:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
That point is not in conflict with Ackerman. He did not say Ansar Al-Islam was, he said the region was. Therefore, a non-issue. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
There has been a long debate about the link between Saddam and Osama. Newly released documents, the Operation Iraqi Freedom Documents, show that the link was real. Additional information is coming out almost everyday. I have made a small entry in the Introduction only. The page is behind times and I am too busy to keep it up myself. I am hoping some editors are willing to step forward and clean up this article. RonCram 08:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Ryan, you make some strange claims.
The article also talks about 9/11 Commission member Bob Kerry:
I'm tired of all the trash-talking about the Weekly Standard. Here are direct quotes in praise of Weekly Standard. "The preeminent political journal in America." —Slate.com
"The oracle of American politics" —CNN's Wolf Blitzer
"...The Weekly Standard has become a forceful presence in the world of political opinion...It is the most intelligent, aggressive and well-written publication out there." —National Journal
"Has The Weekly Standard become the most powerful magazine, Mara?" "Brit, it certainly has." —exchange between anchorman Brit Hume and reporter Mara Liasson, Fox News Channel
"The Standard's editors have inaugurated one of the most interesting Beltway debates in years." —The New Republic
"DC's opinion makers are reading The Weekly Standard." —PRWEEK
"[The Weekly Standard] is the magazine I get most grumpy about when it's not delivered." —Abe Rosenthal, former editor, The New York Times
"I don't think you can do without it if you want to know what's going on in Washington." —Robert Novak
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Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:RonCram"
The 'Operation Iraqi Freedom documents' allegations and citations are not fact. There is no verification of the documents on which they are based:
So therefore the text as revert warred, which contains examples of third-party claims 'X claims Y' masked as factual, first hand assertions of 'Y is', is unverifiable. To represent these claims as fact is an outright and blatant falsehood, and a vulgar misuse of Wikipedia. Revert warring won't make it factual, any more than circular citations will. Keep the propaganda out.
When and if the documents are verified and the allegations they contained are corroborated, the talking points brought here will be valid - in the meantime, they are fetid and reek of misinformation. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Below is the current text, edited by Ryan:
I think this is an improvement over the Roncram&Co. version (nice of you to invite your friends to your little edit war, by the way, sometimes using language that makes it clear this is all a game of annoy-the-liberals to you rather than a somewhat serious endeavor to discuss issues accurately). However there are a couple of things I don't understand: (1) Why is the Zubaydah document mentioned in the introduction to this piece? There is no indication this document ties Zubaydah to Iraq in any way. It is likely a speech or writing by Zubaydah that was published on an al Qaeda website that was printed out by an Iraqi bureaucrat, just like the FAS web site from 1997 that was copied in another document (and was wrongly interpreted by right-wing bloggers as a Mukhabarat manual even though it had the FAS logo on it). It is just plain scaremongering to put it in here (especially in the intro!), especially given that this document has not yet been the topic of speculation even in the Weakly Standard or even CNSNews. (2) The claim that "Eight months after an alleged offer of operational partnership, U.S. forces in the region were attacked by al-Qaeda operatives" is also scaremongering without substance. If we want to say the NYSun speculates that one of the documents makes this suggestion we might be closer to something, but we also need to make clear that the alleged "offer of operational partnership" was based on a meeting in 1995, and that we know that the talks between the two parties ended by 1998. We should also add for context the fact that nobody has ever even suggested Iraq was involved in the attacks 8 months later and that no evidence ever materialized of such an Iraqi connection. Mentioning one without the other is a flagrant example of invalid post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning. (3) Bob Kerrey's change of heart is not an appropriate topic for the intro. This is about Saddam and AQ, not Bob Kerrey. If you feel it is important, let's have it in the timeline rather than the intro. Finally, I want to ask those of you who have come late to RonCram's little edit war party to please take note of the fact that his claim on your user pages that we are trying to censor information about these documents is mendacious. I have in fact inserted information on these documents into several places in the timeline over the last week, as is easily verified by a glance at the edit history. I have included information on both sides of the debate, contrary to RonCram's assertion that I am POV-pushing. I even included quotes from the Weakly Standard in my edits! It is completely disingenuous for me or Ryan to be accused of trying to suppress this information -- we have been insisting only that these issues be discussed in a level-headed manner. The additions Ron made to the page were not level headed. And his edit war on the page about the OIF Documents themselves is actually about him trying to suppress information, not me or Ryan. Look, there will be different points of view on these issues, but trying to raise group interest in an edit war is juvenile and futile. We would be a lot better off if we focused on improving the articles rather than trying to start edit wars with people we don't like. I myself have wasted way too much time on this edit war that would be better spent reading the IPP study, which has been released, and incorporating the relevant information on these pages.-- csloat 06:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC) I've made a couple additions to the passage in question but I have not yet deleted the stuff about Zubaydah, the 8 month post hoc fallacious comment, and the Bob Kerrey material; I'd like to see what others have to say about this before deleting anything.-- csloat 07:01, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, csloat, I did invite some other editors to visit the page. I was tired of having you and Ryan tag team me in a ridiculous edit war designed to keep facts from readers. And it worked. We now have an entry that mentions the documents. It is cumbersome, redundant and poorly worded but it is much to be preferred over the silence imposed by Ryan and encouraged by you. However, I am bothered that you feel the need to stalk my contributions to other users talk pages. I have often wondered about you stalking me to other pages in the past but always tried to think the best of you. But when I see other editors complain of your stalking and then experience it myself, you make it difficult to give you the benefit of the doubt. In addition, I see that you still wish to delete well-sourced information - Zubaydah, the 8 month post and Bob Kerry. Have you changed your mind on the Kerry portion? Earlier you said you didn't mind posting his comments. And why would you want to delete the 8 month post when this was brought up by ABC News? RonCram 13:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I do think that accusing someone of "stalking" is likely to cause offense. In addition, the behavior RonCram is denouncing in csloat is a natural response to the sort of behavior where you go from place to place repeating things to popularize an idea. -- Mr. Billion 21:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Given this page's >100kb size, at the moment, would there be some agreement to have two entries? One for Saddam and AQ in general and one for Saddam & AQ & links to the 9/11 attacks. Just a thought as to how to get this thing into something manageable... Benny the Beaver 00:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I suggest making the Timeline a separate article. The main article should be an overview. The Timeline fleshes that out with detail. Derex 18:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
TDC made some edits to the prague connection section, and he apparently believes that there is truth to the claim even though Cheney himself has backed off of it. His claim that the BIS still stands by the claim is not supported by the evidence he offers. Here is the offending line:
The line used to read that Ruzek "continued to give credence to the report in 2003. [12]," which is supported by the slate article. I looked through the 2005 Opinion Journal piece that he added but I do not see any evidence that any of these people "continue to stand by the claim." I doubt that they do. The opinion journal piece indicates Ruzek threw the ball in the CIA's court, making it seem as though he is happy not to have to deal with that issue any more. Which is understandable; the article says he was furious that the Americans leaked what he considered raw intelligence that had not been verified, and of course it is well known that the Czechs being wrong about this became a political issue there. I have not changed this section back yet in case I am missing something -- can TDC explain where in the WSJ piece it substantiates that these guys still stand by the claim, which every other intel agency in the world considers false? It's pretty clear the whole thing is a huge embarrassment for the BIS, who seem to think the claim should never have been made public. James Risen notes that the whole thing "emerges as a complex Central European tale of political infighting among Czech leaders and feuding between rival intelligence services, topped off by a series of simple blunders and overheated statements that inadvertently fueled an American debate involving war and peace." (NYT 10/21/02). No responsible journalist seems to take the disputed claim seriously anymore. If there really is recent evidence to suggest someone still supporting the story, I'd like to see it. I also think we may need a separate page for this claim (even though I was originally against a "Prague Connection" page). -- csloat 03:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Is this entire article disputed, or can the dispute be handled under a section npov tag? Can anyone tell me what the top one or two NPOV disputes are? Scanned current talk page, but archives are _long_. Derex 18:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please explain how it improves the intro to have information about Scheuer in there? His 2002 book was never cited in relation to the Saddam/AQ connection in any news source at all until well after he wrote his 2004 book and was asked about it on a talk show. There seems to be no reason to include this paragraph in the introduction to this page, since it is not at all more than a footnote to this story. Perhaps on the timeline there is a place for it, if someone thinks it's important in some way? If someone can enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.-- csloat 07:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
csloat, the point here is that the existence and extent of a possible relationship between Saddam and al-Qaeda is a controversial subject. It was debated inside the Intelligence Community from the mid 1990s until now. I am not blaming the DIA for faulty analysis. I am siding with the DIA in blaming the CIA for faulty analysis (and not all the CIA - I think Scheuer was right in 2002). You are right the DIA analyst did not use the colorful term "pure crap." My memory was faulty. The DIA analyst says the CIA conclusions "should be ignored." The Secretary of Defense and Under Secretary of Defense for Policy were unsatisfied with work performed by CIA analysts and requested the Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency to assess intelligence reporting by CIA analysts. The DIA analyst assigned to the task reviewed the CIA product “Iraq and al-Qaida: Interpreting a Murky Relationship” and wrote:
csloat, the DIA analyst points to "numerous" sources over a decade. You are incorrect in assuming the evidence related only to al-Libi. BTW, there are many people in the Intelligence Community who believe al-Libi was telling the truth the first time and is lying now. The fact this relationship has been debated for years prior to and after 9/11 should not be kept from wikipedia readers.
At the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, I will repeat myself again. The Scheuer info has to be in the Introduction because it introduces to the reader the fact that this is a controversial subject. Wikipedia does not avoid controversial subjects, it discusses why the subject is controversial. RonCram 05:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
News reports indicate that the Bush Administration was getting competing analysis of the relationship between Saddam and al-Qaeda during the leadup to the Iraq war -- the analysis of the CIA, which had found no credible evidence of collaboration, and the analysis of a "circle of neoconservatives" without professional intelligence experience operating out of the Pentagon and the Vice President's Office, who reviewed some of the evidence that had been examined by the CIA and reached the opposite conclusion.[8]
It is not the opinion of one reporter. It is a well established fact. The OSP is not the myth of some axe-grinders! It actually existed, and nobody disputes that the people involved are a circle of neoconservatives.-- csloat 18:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The point that needs to be made is that this is a controversial subject. The article itself provides interesting insight into the controversy even if the writer does use somewhat inflammatory language with "circle of neoconservatives." The point is that the Bush Administration was getting raw intelligence reports and analysis that indicated a cooperative relationship existed. RonCram 01:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
This has gotten out of control. I think it is imperative that anyone wishing to add POV material to the intro should first read the rest of the timeline. I have made corrections (and left out the so-called "slur" the anon objected to), but this is just going to go on forever. I would be happy to take this disputed material out of the intro entirely and go back to how it was a few days ago; otherwise, if others keep adding junk that is already discussed in the timeline I will have to keep adding the context. Perhaps a separate section for the Office of Special Plans would be useful here. I really don't think this stuff belongs in the intro at all; soon the intro will be as long as the timeline if people keep adding things. A clear and simple summary of the controversy and the conclusions of major investigations is fine. (By the way, I removed the fact tag on the CIA claim since the NPR cite confirms it; it is also confirmed below in the timeline.)
Anon editor, if you are reading the talk page, can you please enter dialogue here rather than making drive-by edits? Thanks.-- csloat 16:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone added the NPOV tag a while ago but I see nothing in talk justifying it. If someone wants to add that tag, please explain in Talk what the NPOV problem is and how it can be remedied. That way the tag does not become the default state of the article. Also, it is better to use the tag on a particular section that has a problem rather than the whole article (esp with an article of this size). Thanks.-- csloat 19:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
An anon editor keeps changing the intro offering cryptic edit summaries and refusing to respond in talk about these changes. I do not wish to have a revert war over this, but some of the changes are incorrect. The CIA made very clear that its analysts believed there was no evidence of a Saddam/AQ connection. The Dec 9 2005 NYT article states clearly that the DIA concluded that al-Libi "was intentionally misleading his debriefers." The intel based on Libi's statements was withdrawn publicly by the CIA in March 2004. The anon editor seems intent on creating a false impression with the intro, as if al-Libi's testimony were still considered credible. As far as I can tell, there is nobody on earth who believes it is, certainly nobody in CIA or DIA. I'd like to once again ask the anon editor to explain him/herself. It would also be nice if s/he would sign in and participate in the dialogue on this page rather than continuing drive-by POV edits.-- csloat 22:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
(precise CIA action) 75.3.203.207 22:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a poll going on at the Iraq War article that is related to this article. You can add your vote here: [13] -- Mr. Tibbs 05:06, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
i'm new to this page, so i didn't want to make any edits without knowing if a consensus had been reached through debate with regards to the intro paragraph. the first sentence is followed by five links, plus the sentence contains a link as well. six links in the opening sentence is a bit odd to me. is there a reason for this? also, why is a reference to the "downing street memo" in the intro? i think the intro could be rewritten and simplified. thoughts? Anthonymendoza 21:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
this section desperately needs to be rewritten. it's incoherent. i'll get the ball rolling. Anthonymendoza 17:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)