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I am going to remove the sentence about wealth being a result of the Armenian genocide. The sentence looks simplistic on its face, and I also want to see direct citations from the sources. I found an obituary of Sakip Sabanci in The Guardian, 2004 and the Armenian genocide is not mentioned there in the history of the family grew rich. Regards, Iselilja ( talk) 12:47, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Vehbi Koc was an aspiring entrepreneur, Haci Ömer was an illiterate villager both were not wealthy before taking over confiscated minority-properties... Both benefitted economically from the Armenian Genocide and thus that's the economical origin of their business. That is when both started making business (a new generation of Turks who began build businesses.) -- Markus2685 ( talk) 17:51, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
True or not the genocide section has a distinct point of view / political agenda feel to it. It just does not read as something that you would expect to find in a encyclopedia. Mtpaley ( talk) 19:52, 11 March 2014 (UTC).
I also notice that Hacı Ömer Sabancı was aged 9 at the time of the genocide in 1915. Mtpaley ( talk) 21:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
We're not here to provide a genelogy service, and inclusion of a list of largely unsourced living people in the context of "profiting" from "genocide" seems particuarly problematic per WP:BLP. Please do not restore most of that content without better sourcing and more nuanced, and again, sourced, statements about any connection between the individuals involved in genocide. -- j⚛e decker talk 17:52, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
The argument "discussion result is clear where only one person asserts that a source is reliable for a contentious claim" is unsustainable. First of there was no discussion result saying that the sources used are unreliable. The only real discussion was between me and User Iselilja and the result was that the section and sources are ok after changes were made to the text. This was the only discussion. User Mtpaley did not discuss anything. He only stated his opinion and I was the only one answering him. Furthermore the fact about the property confiscation is not a contentious claim as you claim. It is a fact that historians and scholars from different origins and countries have written about. Just look at the sources. If you delete this fully sourced section again without discussing it I will have to consider this beeing possibly vandalism. -- Markus2685 ( talk) 00:36, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Collect ( talk · contribs) We can just examine two sources for now and thus narrow it down accordingly to avoid further confusion in the article. So please specify which part of this source does not support the addition made in the article:
"In 2003 Turkey exported 200,000 bales of cotton. Although it would be quite hard to calculate exactly what percentage of this production was generated on fields confiscated from Armenians, we might get an idea of the level of economic development from one, famous example.
The Sabanci family is Turkey's modern rags-to-riches success story. Its patriarch, Hacı Ömer Sabancı (1906–1966), began working as a cotton picker in Adana. Later he became a broker for cotton harvesters and entered the cotton trade. In 1932 Sabancı became a co-owner of a cotton spinning plant, and his success took off from there. He established a cotton ginning mill in 1950. The Sabancı Holding was established in 1966 and moved from Adana to Istanbul in 1974. Nowadays, the holding is the largest firm in Turkey. It operates in 15 countries, employs 60,000 people, owns a university, 70 leading companies and has many joint ventures with large western firms. Its revenue in 2008 was US$20,000 billion, its net income in 2009 was US$3.2 billion. Moreover, Sabancı has continued to produce textiles, including cotton products. In 1971 it founded Teksa Cotton and Synthetic Yarn, Velvet Weaving and Finishing Inc., which in 1993 merged into Bossa. Bossa is one of the largest textile firms in Turkey; its revenue in 2009 was US$164.1 million.
These examples must stand for many Turkish entrepreneurs who benefitted from the Armenian Genocide either directly by CUP donations or indirectly from the economic void left by the elimination of Armenian competition."
Ugur Ungor, Mehmet Polatel: Confiscation and Destruction. The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property. Bloomsbury Academic, 2011. p. 132
"In the early 1920s, Haci Omer went to Adana, a relatively rich town in the cotton-gorwing region of Southern Anatolia, to seek his fortune. At that period, there were many workers from Kayseri who, like Haci Omer, were attracted by the opportunities provided by cotton farming and industry. Among them there were also rich merchants of Kayseri who had been led to Adana commercial and industrial establishments left idle after the emigration of their Greek and Armenian owners. Such takeovers were encouraged by the government, and those who had connections with the governments authorities could benefit greatly from these opportunities. Haci Omer was not an important man with such connections, but he benefitted from the same circumstances indirectly, through the ties of "fellow townsmenship" which can be very important in Turkey. Although he was too modest to be delegated a direct responsibility in the mission of indigenization of the economy, through acquaintanceship with families from Kayseri, he has taken some part in the takeover of old minority-run ventures in Adana."
Ayse Bugra: State and Business in Modern Turkey. A Comparative Study. SUNY Press, 1994. p. 82
Here's the sentence:
The Sabancı (and Koç) family, like many of today's Turkish entrepreneurs, benefited from the Armenian Genocide and the elimination of the Armenians and the Armenian competition by taking part in takeovers of old minority-run ventures, which were encouraged by the government and which led to the creation of a new Turkish Bourgeoisie.
If you feel that the sentence should be split up, I propose amending the sentence this way:
The Sabancı family, like many of today's Turkish entrepreneurs, benefited from the aftermath of the Armenian Genocide as a result of the elimination of the Armenians and with it the local Armenian competition.[Ungor source][Bugra source] Such takeovers were encouraged by the government at the time,[Bugra source] and ultimately led to the creation of a new Turkish middle-class during the early years of the Republic of Turkey.[Ungor source (pg. 80)]
Étienne Dolet ( talk) 06:07, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Are we all looking at the same sources? That Turks profited from the economic and financial disenfranchisement of Christians after World War I is no grand secret. The Sabancis, the Koc family, the Pirincizades are just some of the more prominent names that come to mind. The sources cited above clearly demonstrate that. There's no reason that this debate has extended on for this long. In terms of reliability, the sources are as solid as they come. So why the stonewalling? -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 18:35, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Result:There is consensus for the alternative proposal: "Omer Sabanci, the progenitor of the Sabancı family, moved from his native Kayseri to Adana in the early 1920s. His business grew, in part, due to reduced business competition as a result of the Armenian Genocide."
Four editors supported inclusion and five were opposed. A compromise suggestion was made, which was supported by five editors and opposed by one.
The main argument against inclusion was that material unfavourable to the subject of the article should require strong, clear sourcing. This is a reasonable argument, and it should also be noted that the article is very short, so WP:UNDUE should also be a consideration (even if the material in question is sourced and relevant, it should not be made over-dominant).
On the other hand, it was argued that the material was attributable to highly reputable sources and that the material related to a historic context too significant to simply ignore. These are also reasonable arguments (roughly speaking - personally I would say the material would need tweaking at least a little, but that's just IMO and neither here nor there). I'm not sure whether they address the issue of weight, but this is also not an issue that anyone made much of in the RfC.
So, on the question as originally put, both numbers and arguments are fairly evenly split and there is no consensus.
A shorter compromise formulation gained numerical consensus. Not everyone who participated in the RfC commented on this proposal, but it still had more support than any other option. Taking into account changes in position, three editors favoured including nothing, two editors supported the longer proposal and five supported the compromise. It is also possible that any number up to four or the editors who did not support the compromise might have done if they had been aware that it was being discussed.
Given all this, I think it is appropriate to declare a consensus for the compromise. Note that this consensus was not overwhelming, so continued discussion should not be considered inappropriate if editors wish to do that.
Consider also including a citation to support the compromise wording.
Should the following paragraph be included in this article?
Omer Sabanci, the progenitor of the Sabancı family, moved from his native Kayseri to Adana in the early 1920s.[Bugra] While in Adana, Sabanci took up the opportunity to expand his business when much of the local competition from Armenians was eliminated due to the Armenian Genocide.[Ungor][Bugra] Sabanci, with encouragement of the government, eventually took part in takeovers of such old minority-run ventures.[Bugra]
If you feel that the wording should be changed, please provide an alternate proposal.
For reference, the sources applied to the paragraph are: page 82 of Ayse Bugra: State and Business in Modern Turkey: A Comparative Study and page 131-2 of Ugur Ungor: Confiscation and Destruction: The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property Étienne Dolet ( talk) 19:19, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
We need a rationale as to why you think these sources aren't strong enough already. The sources are explicit in what they say:
"In 2003 Turkey exported 200,000 bales of cotton. Although it would be quite hard to calculate exactly what percentage of this production was generated on fields confiscated from Armenians, we might get an idea of the level of economic development from one, famous example.
The Sabanci family is Turkey's modern rags-to-riches success story. Its patriarch, Hacı Ömer Sabancı (1906–1966), began working as a cotton picker in Adana. Later he became a broker for cotton harvesters and entered the cotton trade. In 1932 Sabancı became a co-owner of a cotton spinning plant, and his success took off from there. He established a cotton ginning mill in 1950. The Sabancı Holding was established in 1966 and moved from Adana to Istanbul in 1974. Nowadays, the holding is the largest firm in Turkey. It operates in 15 countries, employs 60,000 people, owns a university, 70 leading companies and has many joint ventures with large western firms. Its revenue in 2008 was US$20,000 billion, its net income in 2009 was US$3.2 billion. Moreover, Sabancı has continued to produce textiles, including cotton products. In 1971 it founded Teksa Cotton and Synthetic Yarn, Velvet Weaving and Finishing Inc., which in 1993 merged into Bossa. Bossa is one of the largest textile firms in Turkey; its revenue in 2009 was US$164.1 million.
These examples must stand for many Turkish entrepreneurs who benefitted from the Armenian Genocide either directly by CUP donations or indirectly from the economic void left by the elimination of Armenian competition."
Ugur Ungor, Mehmet Polatel: Confiscation and Destruction. The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property. Bloomsbury Academic, 2011. p. 132
"In the early 1920s, Haci Omer went to Adana, a relatively rich town in the cotton-gorwing region of Southern Anatolia, to seek his fortune. At that period, there were many workers from Kayseri who, like Haci Omer, were attracted by the opportunities provided by cotton farming and industry. Among them there were also rich merchants of Kayseri who had been led to Adana commercial and industrial establishments left idle after the emigration of their Greek and Armenian owners. Such takeovers were encouraged by the government, and those who had connections with the governments authorities could benefit greatly from these opportunities. Haci Omer was not an important man with such connections, but he benefitted from the same circumstances indirectly, through the ties of "fellow townsmenship" which can be very important in Turkey. Although he was too modest to be delegated a direct responsibility in the mission of indigenization of the economy, through acquaintanceship with families from Kayseri, he has taken some part in the takeover of old minority-run ventures in Adana."
Ayse Bugra: State and Business in Modern Turkey. A Comparative Study. SUNY Press, 1994. p. 82
That's pretty direct if you ask me. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 20:27, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
No, there's support for the inclusion of a similar bit by other users such as Alexikoua, Marshall, Yerevantsi, Markus, and others. As for the oppose votes here, they merely point to a general rule in Wikipedia that strong claims need strong sources. That's something I full-heartedly believe as well. But nowhere in this discussion, including the thread at the RSN, state that these sources aren't already strong enough. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 21:31, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
I retain strong concerns about "as the result of the Armenian Genocide" being included - it is a linkage to a crime which requires strong and specific sourcing, else it could be added to almost every BLP of anyone from Turkey at the time. It would then be clearly link-spam and so - since so far no such claim seems supported by reliable sources, the "compromise" still fails to meet Wikipedia policy. Collect ( talk) 12:24, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Nthep noticed the wording which I had introduced based on a belief that a source had been cited properly in the past. When he removed it, I took a solid look at the source asserted, and noticed that it does not support any such claim, and that Nthep's removal was proper. I note that I now have some access to check this source, and now find it entirely deficient for any of the claims about a connection to genocide on the part of this family which has living members. Collect ( talk) 18:59, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
[3] is a textbook example of WP:OR
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sabancı family article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that an image or photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
Wikipedians in Turkey may be able to help! The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
I am going to remove the sentence about wealth being a result of the Armenian genocide. The sentence looks simplistic on its face, and I also want to see direct citations from the sources. I found an obituary of Sakip Sabanci in The Guardian, 2004 and the Armenian genocide is not mentioned there in the history of the family grew rich. Regards, Iselilja ( talk) 12:47, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Vehbi Koc was an aspiring entrepreneur, Haci Ömer was an illiterate villager both were not wealthy before taking over confiscated minority-properties... Both benefitted economically from the Armenian Genocide and thus that's the economical origin of their business. That is when both started making business (a new generation of Turks who began build businesses.) -- Markus2685 ( talk) 17:51, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
True or not the genocide section has a distinct point of view / political agenda feel to it. It just does not read as something that you would expect to find in a encyclopedia. Mtpaley ( talk) 19:52, 11 March 2014 (UTC).
I also notice that Hacı Ömer Sabancı was aged 9 at the time of the genocide in 1915. Mtpaley ( talk) 21:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
We're not here to provide a genelogy service, and inclusion of a list of largely unsourced living people in the context of "profiting" from "genocide" seems particuarly problematic per WP:BLP. Please do not restore most of that content without better sourcing and more nuanced, and again, sourced, statements about any connection between the individuals involved in genocide. -- j⚛e decker talk 17:52, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
The argument "discussion result is clear where only one person asserts that a source is reliable for a contentious claim" is unsustainable. First of there was no discussion result saying that the sources used are unreliable. The only real discussion was between me and User Iselilja and the result was that the section and sources are ok after changes were made to the text. This was the only discussion. User Mtpaley did not discuss anything. He only stated his opinion and I was the only one answering him. Furthermore the fact about the property confiscation is not a contentious claim as you claim. It is a fact that historians and scholars from different origins and countries have written about. Just look at the sources. If you delete this fully sourced section again without discussing it I will have to consider this beeing possibly vandalism. -- Markus2685 ( talk) 00:36, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Collect ( talk · contribs) We can just examine two sources for now and thus narrow it down accordingly to avoid further confusion in the article. So please specify which part of this source does not support the addition made in the article:
"In 2003 Turkey exported 200,000 bales of cotton. Although it would be quite hard to calculate exactly what percentage of this production was generated on fields confiscated from Armenians, we might get an idea of the level of economic development from one, famous example.
The Sabanci family is Turkey's modern rags-to-riches success story. Its patriarch, Hacı Ömer Sabancı (1906–1966), began working as a cotton picker in Adana. Later he became a broker for cotton harvesters and entered the cotton trade. In 1932 Sabancı became a co-owner of a cotton spinning plant, and his success took off from there. He established a cotton ginning mill in 1950. The Sabancı Holding was established in 1966 and moved from Adana to Istanbul in 1974. Nowadays, the holding is the largest firm in Turkey. It operates in 15 countries, employs 60,000 people, owns a university, 70 leading companies and has many joint ventures with large western firms. Its revenue in 2008 was US$20,000 billion, its net income in 2009 was US$3.2 billion. Moreover, Sabancı has continued to produce textiles, including cotton products. In 1971 it founded Teksa Cotton and Synthetic Yarn, Velvet Weaving and Finishing Inc., which in 1993 merged into Bossa. Bossa is one of the largest textile firms in Turkey; its revenue in 2009 was US$164.1 million.
These examples must stand for many Turkish entrepreneurs who benefitted from the Armenian Genocide either directly by CUP donations or indirectly from the economic void left by the elimination of Armenian competition."
Ugur Ungor, Mehmet Polatel: Confiscation and Destruction. The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property. Bloomsbury Academic, 2011. p. 132
"In the early 1920s, Haci Omer went to Adana, a relatively rich town in the cotton-gorwing region of Southern Anatolia, to seek his fortune. At that period, there were many workers from Kayseri who, like Haci Omer, were attracted by the opportunities provided by cotton farming and industry. Among them there were also rich merchants of Kayseri who had been led to Adana commercial and industrial establishments left idle after the emigration of their Greek and Armenian owners. Such takeovers were encouraged by the government, and those who had connections with the governments authorities could benefit greatly from these opportunities. Haci Omer was not an important man with such connections, but he benefitted from the same circumstances indirectly, through the ties of "fellow townsmenship" which can be very important in Turkey. Although he was too modest to be delegated a direct responsibility in the mission of indigenization of the economy, through acquaintanceship with families from Kayseri, he has taken some part in the takeover of old minority-run ventures in Adana."
Ayse Bugra: State and Business in Modern Turkey. A Comparative Study. SUNY Press, 1994. p. 82
Here's the sentence:
The Sabancı (and Koç) family, like many of today's Turkish entrepreneurs, benefited from the Armenian Genocide and the elimination of the Armenians and the Armenian competition by taking part in takeovers of old minority-run ventures, which were encouraged by the government and which led to the creation of a new Turkish Bourgeoisie.
If you feel that the sentence should be split up, I propose amending the sentence this way:
The Sabancı family, like many of today's Turkish entrepreneurs, benefited from the aftermath of the Armenian Genocide as a result of the elimination of the Armenians and with it the local Armenian competition.[Ungor source][Bugra source] Such takeovers were encouraged by the government at the time,[Bugra source] and ultimately led to the creation of a new Turkish middle-class during the early years of the Republic of Turkey.[Ungor source (pg. 80)]
Étienne Dolet ( talk) 06:07, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Are we all looking at the same sources? That Turks profited from the economic and financial disenfranchisement of Christians after World War I is no grand secret. The Sabancis, the Koc family, the Pirincizades are just some of the more prominent names that come to mind. The sources cited above clearly demonstrate that. There's no reason that this debate has extended on for this long. In terms of reliability, the sources are as solid as they come. So why the stonewalling? -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 18:35, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Result:There is consensus for the alternative proposal: "Omer Sabanci, the progenitor of the Sabancı family, moved from his native Kayseri to Adana in the early 1920s. His business grew, in part, due to reduced business competition as a result of the Armenian Genocide."
Four editors supported inclusion and five were opposed. A compromise suggestion was made, which was supported by five editors and opposed by one.
The main argument against inclusion was that material unfavourable to the subject of the article should require strong, clear sourcing. This is a reasonable argument, and it should also be noted that the article is very short, so WP:UNDUE should also be a consideration (even if the material in question is sourced and relevant, it should not be made over-dominant).
On the other hand, it was argued that the material was attributable to highly reputable sources and that the material related to a historic context too significant to simply ignore. These are also reasonable arguments (roughly speaking - personally I would say the material would need tweaking at least a little, but that's just IMO and neither here nor there). I'm not sure whether they address the issue of weight, but this is also not an issue that anyone made much of in the RfC.
So, on the question as originally put, both numbers and arguments are fairly evenly split and there is no consensus.
A shorter compromise formulation gained numerical consensus. Not everyone who participated in the RfC commented on this proposal, but it still had more support than any other option. Taking into account changes in position, three editors favoured including nothing, two editors supported the longer proposal and five supported the compromise. It is also possible that any number up to four or the editors who did not support the compromise might have done if they had been aware that it was being discussed.
Given all this, I think it is appropriate to declare a consensus for the compromise. Note that this consensus was not overwhelming, so continued discussion should not be considered inappropriate if editors wish to do that.
Consider also including a citation to support the compromise wording.
Should the following paragraph be included in this article?
Omer Sabanci, the progenitor of the Sabancı family, moved from his native Kayseri to Adana in the early 1920s.[Bugra] While in Adana, Sabanci took up the opportunity to expand his business when much of the local competition from Armenians was eliminated due to the Armenian Genocide.[Ungor][Bugra] Sabanci, with encouragement of the government, eventually took part in takeovers of such old minority-run ventures.[Bugra]
If you feel that the wording should be changed, please provide an alternate proposal.
For reference, the sources applied to the paragraph are: page 82 of Ayse Bugra: State and Business in Modern Turkey: A Comparative Study and page 131-2 of Ugur Ungor: Confiscation and Destruction: The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property Étienne Dolet ( talk) 19:19, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
We need a rationale as to why you think these sources aren't strong enough already. The sources are explicit in what they say:
"In 2003 Turkey exported 200,000 bales of cotton. Although it would be quite hard to calculate exactly what percentage of this production was generated on fields confiscated from Armenians, we might get an idea of the level of economic development from one, famous example.
The Sabanci family is Turkey's modern rags-to-riches success story. Its patriarch, Hacı Ömer Sabancı (1906–1966), began working as a cotton picker in Adana. Later he became a broker for cotton harvesters and entered the cotton trade. In 1932 Sabancı became a co-owner of a cotton spinning plant, and his success took off from there. He established a cotton ginning mill in 1950. The Sabancı Holding was established in 1966 and moved from Adana to Istanbul in 1974. Nowadays, the holding is the largest firm in Turkey. It operates in 15 countries, employs 60,000 people, owns a university, 70 leading companies and has many joint ventures with large western firms. Its revenue in 2008 was US$20,000 billion, its net income in 2009 was US$3.2 billion. Moreover, Sabancı has continued to produce textiles, including cotton products. In 1971 it founded Teksa Cotton and Synthetic Yarn, Velvet Weaving and Finishing Inc., which in 1993 merged into Bossa. Bossa is one of the largest textile firms in Turkey; its revenue in 2009 was US$164.1 million.
These examples must stand for many Turkish entrepreneurs who benefitted from the Armenian Genocide either directly by CUP donations or indirectly from the economic void left by the elimination of Armenian competition."
Ugur Ungor, Mehmet Polatel: Confiscation and Destruction. The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property. Bloomsbury Academic, 2011. p. 132
"In the early 1920s, Haci Omer went to Adana, a relatively rich town in the cotton-gorwing region of Southern Anatolia, to seek his fortune. At that period, there were many workers from Kayseri who, like Haci Omer, were attracted by the opportunities provided by cotton farming and industry. Among them there were also rich merchants of Kayseri who had been led to Adana commercial and industrial establishments left idle after the emigration of their Greek and Armenian owners. Such takeovers were encouraged by the government, and those who had connections with the governments authorities could benefit greatly from these opportunities. Haci Omer was not an important man with such connections, but he benefitted from the same circumstances indirectly, through the ties of "fellow townsmenship" which can be very important in Turkey. Although he was too modest to be delegated a direct responsibility in the mission of indigenization of the economy, through acquaintanceship with families from Kayseri, he has taken some part in the takeover of old minority-run ventures in Adana."
Ayse Bugra: State and Business in Modern Turkey. A Comparative Study. SUNY Press, 1994. p. 82
That's pretty direct if you ask me. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 20:27, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
No, there's support for the inclusion of a similar bit by other users such as Alexikoua, Marshall, Yerevantsi, Markus, and others. As for the oppose votes here, they merely point to a general rule in Wikipedia that strong claims need strong sources. That's something I full-heartedly believe as well. But nowhere in this discussion, including the thread at the RSN, state that these sources aren't already strong enough. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 21:31, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
I retain strong concerns about "as the result of the Armenian Genocide" being included - it is a linkage to a crime which requires strong and specific sourcing, else it could be added to almost every BLP of anyone from Turkey at the time. It would then be clearly link-spam and so - since so far no such claim seems supported by reliable sources, the "compromise" still fails to meet Wikipedia policy. Collect ( talk) 12:24, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Nthep noticed the wording which I had introduced based on a belief that a source had been cited properly in the past. When he removed it, I took a solid look at the source asserted, and noticed that it does not support any such claim, and that Nthep's removal was proper. I note that I now have some access to check this source, and now find it entirely deficient for any of the claims about a connection to genocide on the part of this family which has living members. Collect ( talk) 18:59, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
[3] is a textbook example of WP:OR