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"Totenkopf" simply translates to "skull" (rather than "Death's Head") - AFAIK there were skull symbols on the uniforms
"Death's head" means skull. Not uncommon. See Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice, Act I, sc. 2 line 43. — Preceding unsigned comment added by METRANGOLO1 ( talk • contribs) 12:01, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
1. Most of it is unverified. Where are the citations?
2. It's too long. Parts of it read like a: how to for the Holocaust
3. Opinion and original research. Due to the unverified nature of this article, much of it has dubious veracity (unless references can be added)
4. I note that there are several editors who seems to continually tinker with this page - BUT NEVER ADD REFERENCES. This makes me somewhat suspicious of their intentions, and whether the "lady doth protest too much". i.e. their work on this WP article has neo-nazi overtones/sympathies.
Either way, this article sucks. It reads like a high-school essay paper and suffers from a lack of referenced critical analysis.
Hence I have added the tags... -unsigned anon ip address 86.166.69.169 2009-10-23
I have added relevant images of what actually happened in the camps run by this organisation . The article was in danger of being an apologia for deeply criminal activities (like some other articles on the Nazis). Peterlewis ( talk) 21:27, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
Oh boy. Here we/I go. My grandfather, still alive at age 92, was in this unit (SSTV/SSTK- Oberbayern - Dachau) from 1937, but after a grievous battle wound received just meters West of Opotchka, Russia during late July 1941(Operation Barbarossa), he was reassigned to SS cloth supplies out of Berlin, where he remained until he fled the Russian advance in April of '45. He did have "forced labor" working under him at the supply depot. I think there DOES need to be clarification. First, not every soldier that was in this unit was a "death camp" operator. They may have unwittingly guarded the grounds of the Divisional Camp located outside of Dachau which also contained the concentration camps, but were not involved in the actual killing, direct detainment or torment & torture of concentration camp internees. A view of ANY historical map of the divisional grounds will show the concentration camp occupied only a portion of the entire complex footprint. My grandfather was posted to, first; athletics and second, where he spent the lions-share of his time; monument guard duty (Feldherrenhalle and Putch Museum, etc.) When he dies, I'll be publicly posting photos of him involved in this activity. Along with hours of documentary film we (my brother and I) recently took of him discussing this period in history, during Christmas 2009. The number, by the way, on the collar tab was a soldier-in-training number the cadets would wear before they were officially done with training. The number represented the group they were in while training. I have a photo of my grandfather wearing collar tabs with the number "1" under the Death's Head icon. My opinion of this article is that it, like the book Soldiers of Destruction (where I think the author of this article is getting most of his information from) only tells a small part of the story of the SSTV. The mere fact that my grandfather was wounded hundreds of miles away from ANY concentration camp alone is enough to stand this article on it's ear...so to speak. Outside of helping out with the number under the TK in the image, I'm not changing anything. I'm just bringing up more..."un-foot-notable" ;-) facts.-- 74.166.134.114 ( talk) 08:44, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
I was a only a tiny bit surprised when you first reverted my edit on the number under the TK on the collar tab, but you're right. The number for now does indeed show the unit. It's says the "Standarte" which is really a division, but I'd be more apt to call it a "Kampfgrupe" or Battalion. I'm in a "whatever" frame of mind about it. Considering the volumes of misinformation on the SS, this is hardly something to get upset over. As to having a former SSTV/TK as a grandfather, even as his grandchildren, talking to him about this period in history can be like, to over use a cliche, making love to a porcupine. I've come to terms with the fact that I probably have one of the angriest grandfathers there is to have. After being promised the world and having the ignominious post-war life he's lived, I'm sure we could all probably understand why he is that way. But then again, as a young man he was rewarded for his hate, so that helps explains things too.-- XB70Valyrie ( talk) 17:48, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
I see. I guess there was also a time when the SSTK Oberbayern was then turned into the 3rd Panzer? He was out of combat ops by then. Does this then mean that the SSTV then remained the SSTV until 1945 and stayed behind at the concentration camps? I was under the impression that the TV was turned into the TK and the TV ceased to exist around the beginning of the war ('39). But now I see I thought that way since, he just stops mentioning the name Totenkopfverband at that period in history because he was no longer in it. I see that fortunately he was moved out into the field instead of remaining in the TV then. Yeah, his wounds saved him not only from the Demyansk Pocket, but also from having to stay at Dachau to do death-camp work. His right elbow was immobilized at a 90 degree angle. The joint was shattered by a shrapnel strike. Anyway. Hoping to enrich and learn as well. Don't mean to congest the discussion board. -- 74.166.134.114 ( talk) 10:49, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
It's been clarified that Totenkopf means "Death's head" -- but no definition is provided for the German name of the organization and this page. So what does Totenkopfverbände mean? -- Deborahjay ( talk) 21:56, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
You may be commingling Totenkopfverbände with Totenkopfwachsturmbanne "Death's-head guard battalions," the actual camp-guard units. Solicitr ( talk) 17:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Did all of them have a badge with the number 13 on it? Or what does that number mean? I think the title under the picture should contain this info. Somethin like: "Totenkopf insignia of the 13th SS-Totenkopfverbände" or something like that. 84.2.129.28 ( talk) 18:24, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Hoops, why are you adding a second Holocaust Nav box to this article and to Concentration Camps Inspectorate when there is already a Holocaust Nav box included at the bottom of each article? If they are not exactly the same (although overall I believe they seem to be so, but for the former Nav box at the bottom of the page being a little more detailed) then why not change one of the Nav boxes to be all inclusive and just have one box? Do we really need two? Kierzek ( talk) 12:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
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Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
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This begs the question as to whether or not there was a 1 thru 12 Standarte??? And maybe a 14 thru xx Standarte???? Or to ask a different way, why was "13" specified if no other insignias indicated a numeric heirarchy???? i.e. and e.g. does the 9th Stadarte have the same skulls head insignia with a "9" under it???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.217.124.4 ( talk) 01:55, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
FYI all- There is a discussion regarding a related article that may be of interest to editors here: Talk:Female_guards_in_Nazi_concentration_camps#Requested_move_28_April_2020. Eric talk 03:15, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Mdaniels5757 ( talk) 22:59, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
SS-Totenkopfverbände → Camp SS – see below b uidh e 08:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
According to WP:USEENGLISH, we should use the name that is most common in English-language RS. Searching the current title on Google Scholar [1] results are mostly in German. Compare to camp SS, which is used in many high quality English works on the topic, including [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] SS Death's Head Units is also a possibility, but that is used much less frequently according to Google Scholar results. [8] b uidh e 08:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
I think the caption "Right collar insignia (second version, 1934–1945)" is wrong. Photo shows a cap badge not an insignia from a collar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DLechnman ( talk • contribs) 08:22, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
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Please remove this flag from the infobox, as per MOS:INFOBOXFLAG. 2400:8500:1801:487:163:44:250:47 ( talk) 11:32, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
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Please remove the errant ref tag here:
Thanks 76.14.122.5 ( talk) 02:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
"Totenkopf" does not mean Death's head in German. Literally it means Dead person's head, which in German is used like the English word "skull". "Schädel" and "Totenkopf" are synonymous in German. Therefore "SS-Totenkopfverbände" should be translated to "SS Skull Units" or, more accurately, "SS Skull Brigades", since Verbände ist the Plural form of Verband, a union of multiple Units, which in English is called Brigade, Group or Regiment.
See also this wiki article: /info/en/?search=Totenkopf Stefano1108 ( talk) 15:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
SS-Totenkopfverbände article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
"Totenkopf" simply translates to "skull" (rather than "Death's Head") - AFAIK there were skull symbols on the uniforms
"Death's head" means skull. Not uncommon. See Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice, Act I, sc. 2 line 43. — Preceding unsigned comment added by METRANGOLO1 ( talk • contribs) 12:01, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
1. Most of it is unverified. Where are the citations?
2. It's too long. Parts of it read like a: how to for the Holocaust
3. Opinion and original research. Due to the unverified nature of this article, much of it has dubious veracity (unless references can be added)
4. I note that there are several editors who seems to continually tinker with this page - BUT NEVER ADD REFERENCES. This makes me somewhat suspicious of their intentions, and whether the "lady doth protest too much". i.e. their work on this WP article has neo-nazi overtones/sympathies.
Either way, this article sucks. It reads like a high-school essay paper and suffers from a lack of referenced critical analysis.
Hence I have added the tags... -unsigned anon ip address 86.166.69.169 2009-10-23
I have added relevant images of what actually happened in the camps run by this organisation . The article was in danger of being an apologia for deeply criminal activities (like some other articles on the Nazis). Peterlewis ( talk) 21:27, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
Oh boy. Here we/I go. My grandfather, still alive at age 92, was in this unit (SSTV/SSTK- Oberbayern - Dachau) from 1937, but after a grievous battle wound received just meters West of Opotchka, Russia during late July 1941(Operation Barbarossa), he was reassigned to SS cloth supplies out of Berlin, where he remained until he fled the Russian advance in April of '45. He did have "forced labor" working under him at the supply depot. I think there DOES need to be clarification. First, not every soldier that was in this unit was a "death camp" operator. They may have unwittingly guarded the grounds of the Divisional Camp located outside of Dachau which also contained the concentration camps, but were not involved in the actual killing, direct detainment or torment & torture of concentration camp internees. A view of ANY historical map of the divisional grounds will show the concentration camp occupied only a portion of the entire complex footprint. My grandfather was posted to, first; athletics and second, where he spent the lions-share of his time; monument guard duty (Feldherrenhalle and Putch Museum, etc.) When he dies, I'll be publicly posting photos of him involved in this activity. Along with hours of documentary film we (my brother and I) recently took of him discussing this period in history, during Christmas 2009. The number, by the way, on the collar tab was a soldier-in-training number the cadets would wear before they were officially done with training. The number represented the group they were in while training. I have a photo of my grandfather wearing collar tabs with the number "1" under the Death's Head icon. My opinion of this article is that it, like the book Soldiers of Destruction (where I think the author of this article is getting most of his information from) only tells a small part of the story of the SSTV. The mere fact that my grandfather was wounded hundreds of miles away from ANY concentration camp alone is enough to stand this article on it's ear...so to speak. Outside of helping out with the number under the TK in the image, I'm not changing anything. I'm just bringing up more..."un-foot-notable" ;-) facts.-- 74.166.134.114 ( talk) 08:44, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
I was a only a tiny bit surprised when you first reverted my edit on the number under the TK on the collar tab, but you're right. The number for now does indeed show the unit. It's says the "Standarte" which is really a division, but I'd be more apt to call it a "Kampfgrupe" or Battalion. I'm in a "whatever" frame of mind about it. Considering the volumes of misinformation on the SS, this is hardly something to get upset over. As to having a former SSTV/TK as a grandfather, even as his grandchildren, talking to him about this period in history can be like, to over use a cliche, making love to a porcupine. I've come to terms with the fact that I probably have one of the angriest grandfathers there is to have. After being promised the world and having the ignominious post-war life he's lived, I'm sure we could all probably understand why he is that way. But then again, as a young man he was rewarded for his hate, so that helps explains things too.-- XB70Valyrie ( talk) 17:48, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
I see. I guess there was also a time when the SSTK Oberbayern was then turned into the 3rd Panzer? He was out of combat ops by then. Does this then mean that the SSTV then remained the SSTV until 1945 and stayed behind at the concentration camps? I was under the impression that the TV was turned into the TK and the TV ceased to exist around the beginning of the war ('39). But now I see I thought that way since, he just stops mentioning the name Totenkopfverband at that period in history because he was no longer in it. I see that fortunately he was moved out into the field instead of remaining in the TV then. Yeah, his wounds saved him not only from the Demyansk Pocket, but also from having to stay at Dachau to do death-camp work. His right elbow was immobilized at a 90 degree angle. The joint was shattered by a shrapnel strike. Anyway. Hoping to enrich and learn as well. Don't mean to congest the discussion board. -- 74.166.134.114 ( talk) 10:49, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
It's been clarified that Totenkopf means "Death's head" -- but no definition is provided for the German name of the organization and this page. So what does Totenkopfverbände mean? -- Deborahjay ( talk) 21:56, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
You may be commingling Totenkopfverbände with Totenkopfwachsturmbanne "Death's-head guard battalions," the actual camp-guard units. Solicitr ( talk) 17:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Did all of them have a badge with the number 13 on it? Or what does that number mean? I think the title under the picture should contain this info. Somethin like: "Totenkopf insignia of the 13th SS-Totenkopfverbände" or something like that. 84.2.129.28 ( talk) 18:24, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Hoops, why are you adding a second Holocaust Nav box to this article and to Concentration Camps Inspectorate when there is already a Holocaust Nav box included at the bottom of each article? If they are not exactly the same (although overall I believe they seem to be so, but for the former Nav box at the bottom of the page being a little more detailed) then why not change one of the Nav boxes to be all inclusive and just have one box? Do we really need two? Kierzek ( talk) 12:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
![]() |
An image used in this article,
File:Chelmno Gas Van.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests August 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 10:49, 14 August 2011 (UTC) |
This begs the question as to whether or not there was a 1 thru 12 Standarte??? And maybe a 14 thru xx Standarte???? Or to ask a different way, why was "13" specified if no other insignias indicated a numeric heirarchy???? i.e. and e.g. does the 9th Stadarte have the same skulls head insignia with a "9" under it???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.217.124.4 ( talk) 01:55, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
FYI all- There is a discussion regarding a related article that may be of interest to editors here: Talk:Female_guards_in_Nazi_concentration_camps#Requested_move_28_April_2020. Eric talk 03:15, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Mdaniels5757 ( talk) 22:59, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
SS-Totenkopfverbände → Camp SS – see below b uidh e 08:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
According to WP:USEENGLISH, we should use the name that is most common in English-language RS. Searching the current title on Google Scholar [1] results are mostly in German. Compare to camp SS, which is used in many high quality English works on the topic, including [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] SS Death's Head Units is also a possibility, but that is used much less frequently according to Google Scholar results. [8] b uidh e 08:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
I think the caption "Right collar insignia (second version, 1934–1945)" is wrong. Photo shows a cap badge not an insignia from a collar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DLechnman ( talk • contribs) 08:22, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
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Please remove this flag from the infobox, as per MOS:INFOBOXFLAG. 2400:8500:1801:487:163:44:250:47 ( talk) 11:32, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
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edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please remove the errant ref tag here:
Thanks 76.14.122.5 ( talk) 02:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
"Totenkopf" does not mean Death's head in German. Literally it means Dead person's head, which in German is used like the English word "skull". "Schädel" and "Totenkopf" are synonymous in German. Therefore "SS-Totenkopfverbände" should be translated to "SS Skull Units" or, more accurately, "SS Skull Brigades", since Verbände ist the Plural form of Verband, a union of multiple Units, which in English is called Brigade, Group or Regiment.
See also this wiki article: /info/en/?search=Totenkopf Stefano1108 ( talk) 15:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)