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can someone comment on the recent changes (around Sept-Oct 2012) that are now preventing install or downgrade to iOS 5.x (or earlier)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarakihi ( talk • contribs) 7 November 2012
"Apple's digital signature protocol for iOS restores and updates,Apple's digital signature protocol for iOS restores and updates" is the title and what it is about. There's more discussed about exploitations and self published citations of those involved in jailbreaking that go about tampering/exploitation of Apple devices/programs. I think it strays too far and balance needs to be considered Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 01:29, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Maybe this is a good candidate for Wikipedia:Third opinion? It seems too trivial for a RfC, but it'd be nice to get some more perspectives on the balance/POV and sourcing issues. Dreamyshade ( talk) 02:30, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
I come here as a third opinion Wikipedian. I would like to point out that notability is not inherent. SHSH blob is not notable because its associated with iOS and barely deserves its own article. The only reason it does is because of the significant independent coverage it has received as a result of jailbreaking and exploits. With out, it struggles to find reliable and independent sources where it is the direct focus of the publication. I would either recommend keeping the section in full and possibly shifting the focus of the article to weight towards how its an important part of that aspect, or simply merge the information into iOS and iOS jailbreaking. At which point the remaining page (even with only the exploit information reduced) is a very likely candidate for WP:AfD -- it almost is as present a candidate for merge. Mkdw talk 00:20, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
I agree that this technical jargon is not notable enough on its own merits to warrant a stand alone article and I think that it more or less serve as a vehicle to spread names of iPhone tampering software, their developers, and direct stake holders like Cydia which stands to gain from sell of Apps through its program. Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 22:46, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Just for reference, here's how the article looked before I revised it based on sources. The content was approximately the same as in the current version, minus some technical details that I removed since I couldn't find secondary sources to confirm them. For example, it'd be great to include details on early iBEC and iBSS caching tools from July 2009, but George Hotz's original blog post is no longer available, and the remaining sources are weak: iHackintosh tutorial, another iHackintosh tutorial, ModMyi copy of Hotz's post, iClarified tutorial, another iClarified tutorial, GDGT forum post, Dev Team blog post, etc. I believe my COI mostly applies here in influencing my thinking that this topic is interesting/significant; publishing technical and historical details about this topic doesn't really help users install Cydia, since the article doesn't include how-to information (note that actually saving and using SHSH blobs requires rather complicated and unintuitive steps, not suitable to include in an encyclopedia article). Dreamyshade ( talk) 23:41, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
References
The iH8sn0w reference's dubious tag is being discussed above already, but I thought I'd start a discussion for the two other dubious tags on the article currently. I'm a little confused by the dubious tag on "First released in 2009 (as TinyTSS and Umbrella)" - it's referenced to a self-published blog, but it's a blog by the developer of the software, and the reference only needs to support the claim that the software was released in a particular year with particular names, so I believe this complies with WP:ABOUTSELF. I just added another reference (also to the developer's blog) to support the name merge claim better. I'm also puzzled by the dubious tag on the first sentence in the technical details section - it's supported by both a secondary source and a self-published source by an expert on the topic, and it's not a controversial claim; references for other parts of the article can also support it. Dreamyshade ( talk) 20:19, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm having a bit of trouble following some of this discussion, but if you want an opinion about [1], then I would highly recommend eliminating this as a source. It's self published material that could be largely considered original research. Unless an alternate, independent and reliable source cites this work as reliable itself, then it should be excluded. Even though the information it supports is minor, its been contested.
It still seems that merging would be the best option. Taking it to another article and changing the wording to explain how it fits into the OS or exploiting would be pertinent. The community may very well view the addition as trivia to the actual concept and debate whether in an encyclopedia such a mention is even worthwhile. A valid discussion to have before merging it with the target article. Mkdw talk 23:40, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
So, SHSH blob is a digital signature from what I gather. The discussion in exploits and countermeasures should focus around what is involved in exploits and what counter measures are in general technical explanation. It should not refer to the process by brand name.
To use another example, "a runner maintains proper hydration and electrolyte replenishment by drinking Gatorade." This works because Gatorade contains a proper blend of necessary electrolytes, carbohydrates and water. (reference: gatorade.com, ref2 an article by a gatorade sponsored person). This sends a message that Gatorade is the only product capable of doing this.
Independently published by reliable source is something used to evaluate the validity of the statement. Undue weight is a different ball game. If you gather around specific sources and even if all of them are credible, the article can very well be built to advance a certain position, including advocating for specific action or product placement. I suggest you read the article chiropractic. There's a huge controversy there, despite the fact it has a lot of highly credible sources. Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 23:20, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
So, after reading the sources, it looks like Umbrella is simply a Java program for storing security hash locally and Cydia's role here is merely as a remote cloud backup. The author's site specifically mentions the lack of dependence on Cydia so you can still restore the device if Cydia capsizes. It is not deserving of by brand name mention. Does anyone else care to comment on this? My understanding from reading the sources is that devices simply need to think that it is "calling home" and the local or remote host emulate the host. Am I wrong?
As specifically stated on Umbrella's page, the utilization of CYDIA's service is not a requisite nor a critical part of this process. Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 03:27, 4 January 2013 (UTC) In question:
References
You're right that TinyUmbrella doesn't rely on Cydia's servers, but it includes features for downloading and uploading SHSH blobs on Cydia's servers - in other words, it lets you work without Cydia's servers or with Cydia's servers, depending on your preferences and goals. The TinyUmbrella developer's FAQ has some information on this - see "are there any options or solutions to fix this problem?" and "How do I save my SHSHs on Cydia?" Dreamyshade ( talk) 05:49, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I have a few concerns with this edit from yesterday ("since its been established that local storage, is an option and that the use of proprietary vendor Cydia is not a technical requirement, it has been genericized").
The previous version of the article didn't say that Cydia and Cydia's servers were required to save SHSH blobs or do SHSH blob restores, just that they are among the most notable tools for doing these things. For my effort to improve the article to make that more clear, see my comment at 09:37, 31 December 2012 (UTC) in #WP:3O, where I suggested rewriting part of the article to mention the general case before mentioning the Cydia-specific case. I don't think you responded to that suggestion though, so I don't know if you considered it insufficient in some way.
I believe that my comments in #WP:3O and #excess details in off topic area, undue weight, product placement have explained that Cydia's servers are the only notable SHSH blob servers, and that Cydia is notable as a tool for saving SHSH blobs. I can provide more lists of quotes from sources to support this if you like.
Another problem with this revision is that the sources don't support changing "Cydia" to "server" or "third party", since the sources specifically discuss Cydia and its servers. Dreamyshade ( talk) 11:47, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
"Proprietary vendor" also seems like an unusual way to describe a piece of free open-source software and a free service run by a developer who has shared code and implementation advice with other developers of similar tools/services, even if it's all supported by a company. :) Dreamyshade ( talk) 12:04, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
For reference, here's the TUAW chat post from September 2009 where saurik shared code for this: "Users who want to get this information from either my server or Apple's server need only make a standard Apple signature server request: if the firmware is "current" they can get it from Apple, and if not they will need to get it from me (if I have it stored, of course)...I will be offering a mechanism for users to do this more easily in the future, but for right now users who wish to do this can do so using the following Python program: http://svn.saurik.com/repos/menes/trunk/cysts/tss.py". The post has other background material that might be helpful too. Dreamyshade ( talk) 03:06, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Hi Dreamyshade and Cantaloupe2. Here is a third opinion for you.
Thanks. Formerip ( talk) 17:41, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
I asked this above in #WP:3O, but I think it got buried among the other discussions, so I'll start a new section for it. I'm interested in opinions on this phrasing change intended to help with neutrality - to me, the results seem equivalent in neutrality but more confusing.
That edit changed "SHSH blobs are small pieces of data" to "The phrase SHSH blobs is a technical jargon for small pieces of data". This doesn't sound right to me - it's normal for articles to start with the term itself, and saying "a technical jargon" isn't quite grammatical. Here's a compromise that also corresponds better to the article's current title: "SHSH blob is a jargon term for a small piece of data that is part of".
The edit also changed "The term "SHSH blobs" is jailbreaking jargon (not an official Apple term)" to "The phrase "SHSH blobs" is an unofficial jargon". This removes the useful detail that it's a jargon term used by jailbreakers (useful because jargon is "defined in relationship to a specific activity, profession, group, or event"), and it replaces that information with the more vague statement of it being an unofficial term. I believe it's important to convey that it's unofficial from the perspective of Apple, since there's no official registry of words in general. Dreamyshade ( talk) 02:00, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm confused - why approve these suggestions and then change the phrasing again? Changing "The term "SHSH blobs" (also called "ECID SHSH") is jailbreaking jargon (not an official Apple term)" to "The term "SHSH blobs" (also called "ECID SHSH") "SHSH blob" is a non-Apple official term" produces a confusing sentence, and the jailbreaking aspect is a significant fact about the term - not undue weight. According to the available sources, the only people who use the term are people in the jailbreaking community. Dreamyshade ( talk) 11:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Also, I've said this before, but it seems relevant to bring it up again in response to your edit summary: I'm also a little puzzled by how you've frequently said "tampering" when discussing jailbreaking, which implies that jailbreaking is improper, foolish, or harmful, instead of using a neutral word (Apple uses the words "unauthorized modification", for example). Dreamyshade ( talk) 11:29, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
There are currently five warning tags on this relatively short article, and four of them seem similar/redundant (unbalanced, COI, off-topic, and spam); the fifth is a primary sources tag. The essay Wikipedia:Tagging pages for problems suggests: "It is best to provide the fewest number of the most specific possible tags. Placing too many tags on an article is "tag-bombing", disruptive, or may be a violation of Do not disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. Placing vague tags on articles results in confusion and discouragement more often than it results in improving the encyclopedia." and "It is very rare that more than two or three tags are needed, even on the worst articles. Adding more tags usually results in all of them being ignored. Focus your attention on the most important one or two issues."
I agree that the article is awkward in terms of balance, and I can't speak about the appropriateness of the COI tag, so those are the two I'd pick as the tags to leave on the article. The spam tag seems to be implied by the COI tag, and the off-topic tag seems to be implied by the balance tag, so I'd suggest removing those two.
I believe that the article no longer has a pressing problem with primary sources. Like I said above at #WP:3O, it has three references to one post by the Cydia developer, but I think that makes sense for referencing technical information because of his expertise in this subject and Cydia's role in SHSH blob usage, and each use of that reference is accompanied by an additional reference. Also, as I mentioned in #Dubious, the TinyUmbrella blog posts seem to count as WP:ABOUTSELF. That leaves the Stefan Esser reference, and he's a recognized expert in this subject, including contributing to iOS Hacker's Handbook ("a PHP security expert and leading researcher of iOS security topics"), so I believe it's acceptable to cite his presentation for non-controversial technical information. The bulk of the article is referenced to secondary sources. Dreamyshade ( talk) 02:30, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Responding to concerns in your recent edits:
Maybe we're getting to the point where I should start a Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard post listing the article's disputed sources, to get more opinions? Dreamyshade ( talk) 02:47, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
user mkdw brought a very valid point that notability is not inherent. It appears that "SHSH blob" is a cryptographic nonce and the in-depth discussion of jail breaking or describing the term as "jailbreaking" related term is highly WP:BIASED and just because SHSH became widely known for jailbreaking alteration to iPhone does not mean its worthy of inclusion. Cydia is a software as well as namesake service that provide online service related to it. Editor disputing the tag is an employee of the said small company. Use of Cydia is requires jailbreaking. Handling of "SHSH blob" is a part of Cydia function. I can't help but notice hidden COI. Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 10:50, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Saying this would be biased in favour of Apple's interests, this over-engineered system is obviously made to stop the user from freely installing old OS version (which are most likely jailbreak-able) and Apple for some reason doesn't like their users making arbitrary use of their legally-owned device. 5.90.60.215 ( talk) 09:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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can someone comment on the recent changes (around Sept-Oct 2012) that are now preventing install or downgrade to iOS 5.x (or earlier)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarakihi ( talk • contribs) 7 November 2012
"Apple's digital signature protocol for iOS restores and updates,Apple's digital signature protocol for iOS restores and updates" is the title and what it is about. There's more discussed about exploitations and self published citations of those involved in jailbreaking that go about tampering/exploitation of Apple devices/programs. I think it strays too far and balance needs to be considered Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 01:29, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Maybe this is a good candidate for Wikipedia:Third opinion? It seems too trivial for a RfC, but it'd be nice to get some more perspectives on the balance/POV and sourcing issues. Dreamyshade ( talk) 02:30, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
I come here as a third opinion Wikipedian. I would like to point out that notability is not inherent. SHSH blob is not notable because its associated with iOS and barely deserves its own article. The only reason it does is because of the significant independent coverage it has received as a result of jailbreaking and exploits. With out, it struggles to find reliable and independent sources where it is the direct focus of the publication. I would either recommend keeping the section in full and possibly shifting the focus of the article to weight towards how its an important part of that aspect, or simply merge the information into iOS and iOS jailbreaking. At which point the remaining page (even with only the exploit information reduced) is a very likely candidate for WP:AfD -- it almost is as present a candidate for merge. Mkdw talk 00:20, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
I agree that this technical jargon is not notable enough on its own merits to warrant a stand alone article and I think that it more or less serve as a vehicle to spread names of iPhone tampering software, their developers, and direct stake holders like Cydia which stands to gain from sell of Apps through its program. Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 22:46, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Just for reference, here's how the article looked before I revised it based on sources. The content was approximately the same as in the current version, minus some technical details that I removed since I couldn't find secondary sources to confirm them. For example, it'd be great to include details on early iBEC and iBSS caching tools from July 2009, but George Hotz's original blog post is no longer available, and the remaining sources are weak: iHackintosh tutorial, another iHackintosh tutorial, ModMyi copy of Hotz's post, iClarified tutorial, another iClarified tutorial, GDGT forum post, Dev Team blog post, etc. I believe my COI mostly applies here in influencing my thinking that this topic is interesting/significant; publishing technical and historical details about this topic doesn't really help users install Cydia, since the article doesn't include how-to information (note that actually saving and using SHSH blobs requires rather complicated and unintuitive steps, not suitable to include in an encyclopedia article). Dreamyshade ( talk) 23:41, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
References
The iH8sn0w reference's dubious tag is being discussed above already, but I thought I'd start a discussion for the two other dubious tags on the article currently. I'm a little confused by the dubious tag on "First released in 2009 (as TinyTSS and Umbrella)" - it's referenced to a self-published blog, but it's a blog by the developer of the software, and the reference only needs to support the claim that the software was released in a particular year with particular names, so I believe this complies with WP:ABOUTSELF. I just added another reference (also to the developer's blog) to support the name merge claim better. I'm also puzzled by the dubious tag on the first sentence in the technical details section - it's supported by both a secondary source and a self-published source by an expert on the topic, and it's not a controversial claim; references for other parts of the article can also support it. Dreamyshade ( talk) 20:19, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm having a bit of trouble following some of this discussion, but if you want an opinion about [1], then I would highly recommend eliminating this as a source. It's self published material that could be largely considered original research. Unless an alternate, independent and reliable source cites this work as reliable itself, then it should be excluded. Even though the information it supports is minor, its been contested.
It still seems that merging would be the best option. Taking it to another article and changing the wording to explain how it fits into the OS or exploiting would be pertinent. The community may very well view the addition as trivia to the actual concept and debate whether in an encyclopedia such a mention is even worthwhile. A valid discussion to have before merging it with the target article. Mkdw talk 23:40, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
So, SHSH blob is a digital signature from what I gather. The discussion in exploits and countermeasures should focus around what is involved in exploits and what counter measures are in general technical explanation. It should not refer to the process by brand name.
To use another example, "a runner maintains proper hydration and electrolyte replenishment by drinking Gatorade." This works because Gatorade contains a proper blend of necessary electrolytes, carbohydrates and water. (reference: gatorade.com, ref2 an article by a gatorade sponsored person). This sends a message that Gatorade is the only product capable of doing this.
Independently published by reliable source is something used to evaluate the validity of the statement. Undue weight is a different ball game. If you gather around specific sources and even if all of them are credible, the article can very well be built to advance a certain position, including advocating for specific action or product placement. I suggest you read the article chiropractic. There's a huge controversy there, despite the fact it has a lot of highly credible sources. Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 23:20, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
So, after reading the sources, it looks like Umbrella is simply a Java program for storing security hash locally and Cydia's role here is merely as a remote cloud backup. The author's site specifically mentions the lack of dependence on Cydia so you can still restore the device if Cydia capsizes. It is not deserving of by brand name mention. Does anyone else care to comment on this? My understanding from reading the sources is that devices simply need to think that it is "calling home" and the local or remote host emulate the host. Am I wrong?
As specifically stated on Umbrella's page, the utilization of CYDIA's service is not a requisite nor a critical part of this process. Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 03:27, 4 January 2013 (UTC) In question:
References
You're right that TinyUmbrella doesn't rely on Cydia's servers, but it includes features for downloading and uploading SHSH blobs on Cydia's servers - in other words, it lets you work without Cydia's servers or with Cydia's servers, depending on your preferences and goals. The TinyUmbrella developer's FAQ has some information on this - see "are there any options or solutions to fix this problem?" and "How do I save my SHSHs on Cydia?" Dreamyshade ( talk) 05:49, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I have a few concerns with this edit from yesterday ("since its been established that local storage, is an option and that the use of proprietary vendor Cydia is not a technical requirement, it has been genericized").
The previous version of the article didn't say that Cydia and Cydia's servers were required to save SHSH blobs or do SHSH blob restores, just that they are among the most notable tools for doing these things. For my effort to improve the article to make that more clear, see my comment at 09:37, 31 December 2012 (UTC) in #WP:3O, where I suggested rewriting part of the article to mention the general case before mentioning the Cydia-specific case. I don't think you responded to that suggestion though, so I don't know if you considered it insufficient in some way.
I believe that my comments in #WP:3O and #excess details in off topic area, undue weight, product placement have explained that Cydia's servers are the only notable SHSH blob servers, and that Cydia is notable as a tool for saving SHSH blobs. I can provide more lists of quotes from sources to support this if you like.
Another problem with this revision is that the sources don't support changing "Cydia" to "server" or "third party", since the sources specifically discuss Cydia and its servers. Dreamyshade ( talk) 11:47, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
"Proprietary vendor" also seems like an unusual way to describe a piece of free open-source software and a free service run by a developer who has shared code and implementation advice with other developers of similar tools/services, even if it's all supported by a company. :) Dreamyshade ( talk) 12:04, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
For reference, here's the TUAW chat post from September 2009 where saurik shared code for this: "Users who want to get this information from either my server or Apple's server need only make a standard Apple signature server request: if the firmware is "current" they can get it from Apple, and if not they will need to get it from me (if I have it stored, of course)...I will be offering a mechanism for users to do this more easily in the future, but for right now users who wish to do this can do so using the following Python program: http://svn.saurik.com/repos/menes/trunk/cysts/tss.py". The post has other background material that might be helpful too. Dreamyshade ( talk) 03:06, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Hi Dreamyshade and Cantaloupe2. Here is a third opinion for you.
Thanks. Formerip ( talk) 17:41, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
I asked this above in #WP:3O, but I think it got buried among the other discussions, so I'll start a new section for it. I'm interested in opinions on this phrasing change intended to help with neutrality - to me, the results seem equivalent in neutrality but more confusing.
That edit changed "SHSH blobs are small pieces of data" to "The phrase SHSH blobs is a technical jargon for small pieces of data". This doesn't sound right to me - it's normal for articles to start with the term itself, and saying "a technical jargon" isn't quite grammatical. Here's a compromise that also corresponds better to the article's current title: "SHSH blob is a jargon term for a small piece of data that is part of".
The edit also changed "The term "SHSH blobs" is jailbreaking jargon (not an official Apple term)" to "The phrase "SHSH blobs" is an unofficial jargon". This removes the useful detail that it's a jargon term used by jailbreakers (useful because jargon is "defined in relationship to a specific activity, profession, group, or event"), and it replaces that information with the more vague statement of it being an unofficial term. I believe it's important to convey that it's unofficial from the perspective of Apple, since there's no official registry of words in general. Dreamyshade ( talk) 02:00, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm confused - why approve these suggestions and then change the phrasing again? Changing "The term "SHSH blobs" (also called "ECID SHSH") is jailbreaking jargon (not an official Apple term)" to "The term "SHSH blobs" (also called "ECID SHSH") "SHSH blob" is a non-Apple official term" produces a confusing sentence, and the jailbreaking aspect is a significant fact about the term - not undue weight. According to the available sources, the only people who use the term are people in the jailbreaking community. Dreamyshade ( talk) 11:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Also, I've said this before, but it seems relevant to bring it up again in response to your edit summary: I'm also a little puzzled by how you've frequently said "tampering" when discussing jailbreaking, which implies that jailbreaking is improper, foolish, or harmful, instead of using a neutral word (Apple uses the words "unauthorized modification", for example). Dreamyshade ( talk) 11:29, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
There are currently five warning tags on this relatively short article, and four of them seem similar/redundant (unbalanced, COI, off-topic, and spam); the fifth is a primary sources tag. The essay Wikipedia:Tagging pages for problems suggests: "It is best to provide the fewest number of the most specific possible tags. Placing too many tags on an article is "tag-bombing", disruptive, or may be a violation of Do not disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. Placing vague tags on articles results in confusion and discouragement more often than it results in improving the encyclopedia." and "It is very rare that more than two or three tags are needed, even on the worst articles. Adding more tags usually results in all of them being ignored. Focus your attention on the most important one or two issues."
I agree that the article is awkward in terms of balance, and I can't speak about the appropriateness of the COI tag, so those are the two I'd pick as the tags to leave on the article. The spam tag seems to be implied by the COI tag, and the off-topic tag seems to be implied by the balance tag, so I'd suggest removing those two.
I believe that the article no longer has a pressing problem with primary sources. Like I said above at #WP:3O, it has three references to one post by the Cydia developer, but I think that makes sense for referencing technical information because of his expertise in this subject and Cydia's role in SHSH blob usage, and each use of that reference is accompanied by an additional reference. Also, as I mentioned in #Dubious, the TinyUmbrella blog posts seem to count as WP:ABOUTSELF. That leaves the Stefan Esser reference, and he's a recognized expert in this subject, including contributing to iOS Hacker's Handbook ("a PHP security expert and leading researcher of iOS security topics"), so I believe it's acceptable to cite his presentation for non-controversial technical information. The bulk of the article is referenced to secondary sources. Dreamyshade ( talk) 02:30, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Responding to concerns in your recent edits:
Maybe we're getting to the point where I should start a Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard post listing the article's disputed sources, to get more opinions? Dreamyshade ( talk) 02:47, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
user mkdw brought a very valid point that notability is not inherent. It appears that "SHSH blob" is a cryptographic nonce and the in-depth discussion of jail breaking or describing the term as "jailbreaking" related term is highly WP:BIASED and just because SHSH became widely known for jailbreaking alteration to iPhone does not mean its worthy of inclusion. Cydia is a software as well as namesake service that provide online service related to it. Editor disputing the tag is an employee of the said small company. Use of Cydia is requires jailbreaking. Handling of "SHSH blob" is a part of Cydia function. I can't help but notice hidden COI. Cantaloupe2 ( talk) 10:50, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Saying this would be biased in favour of Apple's interests, this over-engineered system is obviously made to stop the user from freely installing old OS version (which are most likely jailbreak-able) and Apple for some reason doesn't like their users making arbitrary use of their legally-owned device. 5.90.60.215 ( talk) 09:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)