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![]() | A fact from Sétif and Guelma massacre appeared on Wikipedia's
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Did you know column on 29 June 2005. The text of the entry was as follows:
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![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on May 8, 2011, May 8, 2013, May 8, 2016, May 8, 2017, May 8, 2018, May 8, 2020, and May 8, 2023. |
References added, but I imagine it would help if somebody hit this with scholarly sources someday too... Dvyost 14:30, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article is absolutely terrible. The fact that the article keeps repeating that the french soldiers that carried out the massacre were "80% african" makes it read like it was writte by an apologist that is trying to whitewash the entire thing. Other examples of this tendency include the fact that it talks about the number of Algerian dead without ever indicating where they were civilian or not, but then when it talks about the 104 dead french civilians, it specifically says that over half were women and children. In addition, the article says nothing about what the massacre did to the Algerian national psyche, how it contributed to the formation of the Algerian resistance movement, etc. This article needs to be completely overhauled, although I am not the person to do it. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.165.142.84 ( talk) 13:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
...are some of the links listed at the end of the articel very questionable looking? I'm not feeling quite bold enough to remove some of them, so am asking here... 68.39.174.238 03:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
The number of protesters in the city of Sétif is evaluated to 2000 to 5000 in the latest study on the subject. Vicq 15:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Muslim Algerians are killed systemically, although there was no war in 1945. The French military units included Muslim tirailleurs and goumiers too, but they came from the French forces of WWII. French forces may contain Muslims or not, French forces killed a religious group systemically with order and not in a war.
Sétif incident is not done "unnecessarily", nor "indiscriminate" Just Muslim Algerians are killed by French forces for a reason systemically without war.
This incident is more than a massacre, it's a genocide. Dr.tolga ( talk) 01:59, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Is there information in this article about Guelma, as per the title? Perhaps it could be made more explicit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.27.69 ( talk) 14:45, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 20:07, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
How is there absolutely NO mention of this at all? Even the Algerian government itself has asked France to apologize for the 'Algerian Genocide'.
The issue at hand is not whether it is a massacre or a genocide, it isn't up to us to decide that. However, it is up to us to inform people as well as we can and that includes mentioning genocide claims.
This, the article in its current state, is just whitewashing. Clear and simple. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.111.61.102 ( talk) 09:25, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
More than 2 million Algerians were killed by the French. I believe this constitutes an Algerian Genocide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.74.186.109 ( talk) 06:20, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
Tracymacl ( talk) 12:41, 9 July 2022 (UTC)On page 38 of his book The Wretched of the Earth, Frantz Fanon documents the dead as 45,000.
As a reasonable representative of the typical WP reader who might visit this article (amateur interest in WWII, no background in French-Algerian relations), I'll raise two points of mild confusion that I'm hoping someone might address:
1) The decision to put the "context" section third is atypical for articles like this. With almost no additional work, this section could be renamed "background" and moved before the "outbreak" section. This section might also benefit from one additional introductory sentence clarifying that France had in fact colonized Algeria, probably with an approximate date (these are assumed as background).
2) The "context" section says:
"With the end of World War II, 4,000 protesters took to the streets of Sétif, a town in northern Algeria, to press new demands for independence on the French administration."
...and the "outbreak" section says:
"A parade by about 5,000 of the Muslim Algerian population of Sétif to celebrate the victory ended in clashes between the marchers and the local French gendarmerie, when the latter tried to seize banners attacking colonial rule."
To a naive reader, it's highly unclear whether (a) these are referring to the same event, (b) why the numbers don't agree, and (c) whether the primary motivation for the event was celebration or protest.
I recommend moving the "context" section to a leading "background" section, clarifying this discrepancy, ending the "background" section with the clarified description of the event, and starting the "outbreak" section from the point at which the demonstration/parade was already happening. I think these relatively small changes will improve readability quite a bit.
Thanks!
LittleWalrus ( talk)
The colonial settlers are called "terrorists" literally six times throughout the article, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is against wikipedia policy. This cannot stand, I'm removing it. 2604:6000:FFC0:54:5D97:40B6:3599:6C13 ( talk) 02:57, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
@ Drmies: With all due respect, did you even read the diff you reverted? This is a blatantly obvious display of vandalism. 2604:6000:FFC0:54:5D97:40B6:3599:6C13 ( talk) 13:47, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
European terrorists including Andre Achiary the man responsible for the Guelma massacres
@ Drmies: So you really think that it's acceptable to describe the settlers as "terrorists" multiple times in the article? Please explain to me how that's NPOV. 2604:6000:FFC0:54:5D97:40B6:3599:6C13 ( talk) 22:35, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
"European terrorists including Andre Achiary, the man responsible for the Guelma massacres"(emphasis mine) [1]-- SharʿabSalam▼ ( talk) 12:00, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:14, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sétif and Guelma massacre article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from Sétif and Guelma massacre appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 29 June 2005. The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on May 8, 2011, May 8, 2013, May 8, 2016, May 8, 2017, May 8, 2018, May 8, 2020, and May 8, 2023. |
References added, but I imagine it would help if somebody hit this with scholarly sources someday too... Dvyost 14:30, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article is absolutely terrible. The fact that the article keeps repeating that the french soldiers that carried out the massacre were "80% african" makes it read like it was writte by an apologist that is trying to whitewash the entire thing. Other examples of this tendency include the fact that it talks about the number of Algerian dead without ever indicating where they were civilian or not, but then when it talks about the 104 dead french civilians, it specifically says that over half were women and children. In addition, the article says nothing about what the massacre did to the Algerian national psyche, how it contributed to the formation of the Algerian resistance movement, etc. This article needs to be completely overhauled, although I am not the person to do it. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.165.142.84 ( talk) 13:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
...are some of the links listed at the end of the articel very questionable looking? I'm not feeling quite bold enough to remove some of them, so am asking here... 68.39.174.238 03:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
The number of protesters in the city of Sétif is evaluated to 2000 to 5000 in the latest study on the subject. Vicq 15:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Muslim Algerians are killed systemically, although there was no war in 1945. The French military units included Muslim tirailleurs and goumiers too, but they came from the French forces of WWII. French forces may contain Muslims or not, French forces killed a religious group systemically with order and not in a war.
Sétif incident is not done "unnecessarily", nor "indiscriminate" Just Muslim Algerians are killed by French forces for a reason systemically without war.
This incident is more than a massacre, it's a genocide. Dr.tolga ( talk) 01:59, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Is there information in this article about Guelma, as per the title? Perhaps it could be made more explicit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.27.69 ( talk) 14:45, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Sétif and Guelma massacre. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 20:07, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
How is there absolutely NO mention of this at all? Even the Algerian government itself has asked France to apologize for the 'Algerian Genocide'.
The issue at hand is not whether it is a massacre or a genocide, it isn't up to us to decide that. However, it is up to us to inform people as well as we can and that includes mentioning genocide claims.
This, the article in its current state, is just whitewashing. Clear and simple. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.111.61.102 ( talk) 09:25, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
More than 2 million Algerians were killed by the French. I believe this constitutes an Algerian Genocide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.74.186.109 ( talk) 06:20, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
Tracymacl ( talk) 12:41, 9 July 2022 (UTC)On page 38 of his book The Wretched of the Earth, Frantz Fanon documents the dead as 45,000.
As a reasonable representative of the typical WP reader who might visit this article (amateur interest in WWII, no background in French-Algerian relations), I'll raise two points of mild confusion that I'm hoping someone might address:
1) The decision to put the "context" section third is atypical for articles like this. With almost no additional work, this section could be renamed "background" and moved before the "outbreak" section. This section might also benefit from one additional introductory sentence clarifying that France had in fact colonized Algeria, probably with an approximate date (these are assumed as background).
2) The "context" section says:
"With the end of World War II, 4,000 protesters took to the streets of Sétif, a town in northern Algeria, to press new demands for independence on the French administration."
...and the "outbreak" section says:
"A parade by about 5,000 of the Muslim Algerian population of Sétif to celebrate the victory ended in clashes between the marchers and the local French gendarmerie, when the latter tried to seize banners attacking colonial rule."
To a naive reader, it's highly unclear whether (a) these are referring to the same event, (b) why the numbers don't agree, and (c) whether the primary motivation for the event was celebration or protest.
I recommend moving the "context" section to a leading "background" section, clarifying this discrepancy, ending the "background" section with the clarified description of the event, and starting the "outbreak" section from the point at which the demonstration/parade was already happening. I think these relatively small changes will improve readability quite a bit.
Thanks!
LittleWalrus ( talk)
The colonial settlers are called "terrorists" literally six times throughout the article, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is against wikipedia policy. This cannot stand, I'm removing it. 2604:6000:FFC0:54:5D97:40B6:3599:6C13 ( talk) 02:57, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
@ Drmies: With all due respect, did you even read the diff you reverted? This is a blatantly obvious display of vandalism. 2604:6000:FFC0:54:5D97:40B6:3599:6C13 ( talk) 13:47, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
European terrorists including Andre Achiary the man responsible for the Guelma massacres
@ Drmies: So you really think that it's acceptable to describe the settlers as "terrorists" multiple times in the article? Please explain to me how that's NPOV. 2604:6000:FFC0:54:5D97:40B6:3599:6C13 ( talk) 22:35, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
"European terrorists including Andre Achiary, the man responsible for the Guelma massacres"(emphasis mine) [1]-- SharʿabSalam▼ ( talk) 12:00, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:14, 6 April 2021 (UTC)