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The sources in the Maze Escape section do not back up the assertion that McElwaine was interrogated by the SAS before his death. The An Phlobacht source is not considered reliable for information of this kind (and does not assert this fact anyway, instead stating that he was "executed") and the other source doesn't even mention him (at least thats what my Mozilla search says, if its wrong please point out where he is discussed). Please can somebody address this issue.-- Jackyd101 11:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
An IP editor made this edit, which I'm reverting. Firstly after a lengthy discussion over on the Village Pump, killing is used to describe the death of someone, then murder is used to describe any subsequent convictions, which is exactly what was happening before. Secondly the names of the victims are not relevant, and the part about one being shot in front of his wife is not in any source therefore it's original research. The various locations being added are not particularly relevant either, just trivia that makes the flow of the text worse. As such, I'm reverting back to the previous version. One Night In Hackney 303 06:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Coneypiece, have a look at this Google Search Its spelt Roslea, even on the Fermanagh District Council website.-- padraig 22:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
It does need to be 'accurate' and in this case accurate means official. Shame you have no other method but call it a lame edit war, when you actively took part out of the blue, that reminds me, Padraig where did you go? Or are you happy enough to let Hackney try to fight your battles? Point remains, its not the official name, Roslea is slang, it is not staying. Conypiece 23:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Good to see your resorting to the methods previously used by your big buddy Hackney, ie calling everything lame. Rosslea is official. Hard luck. Conypiece 23:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
In June 2005, the Arbitration Committee ruled that when either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for an editor to change an article from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so (for example, it is acceptable to change from American to British spelling if the article concerns a British topic, and vice versa). Edit warring over optional styles is unacceptable. If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a style-independent reason. When it is unclear whether an article has been stable, defer to the style used by the first major contributor. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jguk.
Conypiece "If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a style-independent reason." Now please stop pushing your opinions, and not just on this article. Be civil, show some respect for editors. -- Domer48 22:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
You describe this as the 'lamest edit war'. Care to tell us all then why you came back to fuel it? Now tell me, have you done any research in regards to this name dispute? Conypiece 18:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
But surely in the interest of accuarcy, we should use the most commonly used name? Take the Londonderry Vs Derry issue for example. Oh did you check it for a rough precentage? Conypiece 21:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
So how is my guess wrong? The BBC have a policy of leaving it up to the editors and presenters themselves. This is made very clear and most people know what each of the BBC presenters preference is. I'm sorry but you cannot edit and run, Padraig did that, but I kept up with him until recently it seems he's been very quiet. You cannot walk away from this discussion, you made a decision to get involved so you should remain until the dispute is resolved or stay away from this issue altogether. Oh and before you run, care to answer me by telling us what the BBC use more Rosslea/Roslea? Oh theres still a discussion going on at the Gerry Adams' page, you have a pending question, will you be back to it? Conypiece 22:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Considering ONiH has now left the arena failing to adequately back up his claims, I am just asking if anyone else has an issue with the Rosslea name? I would ask people to read the above discussion before commenting. The sooner this issue is resolved the better! Conypiece 23:09, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Well Conypiece since you have come on today you have set about causing problems and editwars on at least 13 articles. [5] are you going for some sort of record. -- Domer48 21:36, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Ye read the discussion, and get concensus. The article was stable till you decided to edit war. Final Decision, get concensus. -- Domer48 22:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
As per the previous discussion. -- Domer48 22:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
As per the previous discussion.-- Domer48 22:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
No discussion, just facts and other useful information. Ah just another idea, we could get an admin (not involved with UK/Irish editors or the arbitration) to review all evidence and come to a final decision.
No dispute, see above discussion. -- Domer48 22:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
A claim has been made that "McElwaine" is incorrect, without providing a source that actually says so. Sources on Google News and Google Books favour McElwaine over McElwain by a 3-1 majority, and books I have that aren't available on Google Books also tend to favour McElwaine. I'm not saying which is correct, but in the absence of a source which says which one is actually correct it makes sense to go with the majority, especially since official reports (such as the Hennessy report, who you would definitely expect to know the correct name) favour McElwaine also. 2 lines of K 303 13:06, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
"McElwaine" IS incorrect, please take note of the spelling on the Memorial Monument in Corlat. "McElwaine" is the other "protestant variation" of the name. Also, Séamus is my first cousin once removed. So I know. EverydayMuffin ( talk) 22:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Miles Creagh has reverted my edit claiming "inquest sources don't say anything about interrogation". I'd think "The inquest found that he had been wounded and incapacitated, questioned by the soldiers, then, within five minutes, shot dead" is pretty clear that he was questioned after being wounded, and "interrogated" is a reasonable enough paraphrase. I see he's also adding Urban to question Lynch's account, while ignorning that Urban's full sentence reads "Such allegations cannot be corroborated independently and, as of mid 1991, no inquest had taken place at which pathological evidence on the nature of McElwaine's gunshot wounds could be presented". Since the inquest has taken place now the first part of the sentence is null and void. 2 lines of K 303 08:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure that " interrogated" is a reasonable paraphrase for "questioned" as it suggests a period of intensive questioning designed to solicit tactical or strategic information. Urban recounts that the soldier who discovered Sean Lynch hiding in a ditch asked "have you ben shot, mate?" That may be questioning, but hardly interrogation. I wouldn't be surprised if McElwaine was asked something similar. Best to stick with the actual wording of the source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles Creagh ( talk • contribs) 14:18, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
There's no source that actually uses the word " interrogated" though, is there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles Creagh ( talk • contribs) 16:27, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
i'm not seeing support in the sources for the claim that Seamus was interrogated before he was killed. i do see support for him being killed some period of minutes after he was first shot, but not for what happened in the intervening period. Am I missing some language in the sources that speciffically supports the claim of interrogation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles Creagh ( talk • contribs) 14:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
If you think thre's no difference between " interrogated" and "questioned" then why use the former when the source says the latter? Why not just go with the actual wording from the source, which you say means the same thing anyway? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles Creagh ( talk • contribs) 16:21, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Intetesting. That seems to suggest that an inline citation is required here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles Creagh ( talk • contribs) 17:00, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
The image of the memorial is captioned with Seamus's surname spelt with the - e ending. However from the image itself it's clear it was spelt without the -e. Should we remove the -e from the caption to make it consistent with the memorial? Or is the memorial itself incorrect as to the spelling of the name?
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"It was reported that McElwaine died from his wounds, although a jury found that he had been interrogated while incapacitated for several minutes and then shot dead" is inaccurate and the first part is unsupported by the sources. This edit removed the original text of "McElwaine was interrogated for several minutes and then killed", claiming that "Interrogation then killed claim not sourced. An Phoblacht is partisan". However the text was sourced by the existing reference (and indeed, others further down in the same section), United Kingdom/Northern Ireland Human Rights, 1993, which was cited after the others. The relevant text from it is "A January inquest into the 1986 killing of Seamus McElwaine, an acknowledged Provisional IRA volunteer and escaped prisoner, ruled that soldiers had opened fire without giving him the opportunity to surrender and that McElwaine had actually been killed 5 minutes after being wounded in the initial gunfire".
Now that the original version of the text has been established and that the removal of text was in error, I am reinstating an amended version of that text consistent with the sources. Regards. 176.253.247.109 ( talk) 19:55, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
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The sources in the Maze Escape section do not back up the assertion that McElwaine was interrogated by the SAS before his death. The An Phlobacht source is not considered reliable for information of this kind (and does not assert this fact anyway, instead stating that he was "executed") and the other source doesn't even mention him (at least thats what my Mozilla search says, if its wrong please point out where he is discussed). Please can somebody address this issue.-- Jackyd101 11:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
An IP editor made this edit, which I'm reverting. Firstly after a lengthy discussion over on the Village Pump, killing is used to describe the death of someone, then murder is used to describe any subsequent convictions, which is exactly what was happening before. Secondly the names of the victims are not relevant, and the part about one being shot in front of his wife is not in any source therefore it's original research. The various locations being added are not particularly relevant either, just trivia that makes the flow of the text worse. As such, I'm reverting back to the previous version. One Night In Hackney 303 06:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Coneypiece, have a look at this Google Search Its spelt Roslea, even on the Fermanagh District Council website.-- padraig 22:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
It does need to be 'accurate' and in this case accurate means official. Shame you have no other method but call it a lame edit war, when you actively took part out of the blue, that reminds me, Padraig where did you go? Or are you happy enough to let Hackney try to fight your battles? Point remains, its not the official name, Roslea is slang, it is not staying. Conypiece 23:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Good to see your resorting to the methods previously used by your big buddy Hackney, ie calling everything lame. Rosslea is official. Hard luck. Conypiece 23:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
In June 2005, the Arbitration Committee ruled that when either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for an editor to change an article from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so (for example, it is acceptable to change from American to British spelling if the article concerns a British topic, and vice versa). Edit warring over optional styles is unacceptable. If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a style-independent reason. When it is unclear whether an article has been stable, defer to the style used by the first major contributor. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jguk.
Conypiece "If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a style-independent reason." Now please stop pushing your opinions, and not just on this article. Be civil, show some respect for editors. -- Domer48 22:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
You describe this as the 'lamest edit war'. Care to tell us all then why you came back to fuel it? Now tell me, have you done any research in regards to this name dispute? Conypiece 18:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
But surely in the interest of accuarcy, we should use the most commonly used name? Take the Londonderry Vs Derry issue for example. Oh did you check it for a rough precentage? Conypiece 21:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
So how is my guess wrong? The BBC have a policy of leaving it up to the editors and presenters themselves. This is made very clear and most people know what each of the BBC presenters preference is. I'm sorry but you cannot edit and run, Padraig did that, but I kept up with him until recently it seems he's been very quiet. You cannot walk away from this discussion, you made a decision to get involved so you should remain until the dispute is resolved or stay away from this issue altogether. Oh and before you run, care to answer me by telling us what the BBC use more Rosslea/Roslea? Oh theres still a discussion going on at the Gerry Adams' page, you have a pending question, will you be back to it? Conypiece 22:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Considering ONiH has now left the arena failing to adequately back up his claims, I am just asking if anyone else has an issue with the Rosslea name? I would ask people to read the above discussion before commenting. The sooner this issue is resolved the better! Conypiece 23:09, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Well Conypiece since you have come on today you have set about causing problems and editwars on at least 13 articles. [5] are you going for some sort of record. -- Domer48 21:36, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Ye read the discussion, and get concensus. The article was stable till you decided to edit war. Final Decision, get concensus. -- Domer48 22:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
As per the previous discussion. -- Domer48 22:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
As per the previous discussion.-- Domer48 22:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
No discussion, just facts and other useful information. Ah just another idea, we could get an admin (not involved with UK/Irish editors or the arbitration) to review all evidence and come to a final decision.
No dispute, see above discussion. -- Domer48 22:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
A claim has been made that "McElwaine" is incorrect, without providing a source that actually says so. Sources on Google News and Google Books favour McElwaine over McElwain by a 3-1 majority, and books I have that aren't available on Google Books also tend to favour McElwaine. I'm not saying which is correct, but in the absence of a source which says which one is actually correct it makes sense to go with the majority, especially since official reports (such as the Hennessy report, who you would definitely expect to know the correct name) favour McElwaine also. 2 lines of K 303 13:06, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
"McElwaine" IS incorrect, please take note of the spelling on the Memorial Monument in Corlat. "McElwaine" is the other "protestant variation" of the name. Also, Séamus is my first cousin once removed. So I know. EverydayMuffin ( talk) 22:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Miles Creagh has reverted my edit claiming "inquest sources don't say anything about interrogation". I'd think "The inquest found that he had been wounded and incapacitated, questioned by the soldiers, then, within five minutes, shot dead" is pretty clear that he was questioned after being wounded, and "interrogated" is a reasonable enough paraphrase. I see he's also adding Urban to question Lynch's account, while ignorning that Urban's full sentence reads "Such allegations cannot be corroborated independently and, as of mid 1991, no inquest had taken place at which pathological evidence on the nature of McElwaine's gunshot wounds could be presented". Since the inquest has taken place now the first part of the sentence is null and void. 2 lines of K 303 08:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure that " interrogated" is a reasonable paraphrase for "questioned" as it suggests a period of intensive questioning designed to solicit tactical or strategic information. Urban recounts that the soldier who discovered Sean Lynch hiding in a ditch asked "have you ben shot, mate?" That may be questioning, but hardly interrogation. I wouldn't be surprised if McElwaine was asked something similar. Best to stick with the actual wording of the source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles Creagh ( talk • contribs) 14:18, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
There's no source that actually uses the word " interrogated" though, is there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles Creagh ( talk • contribs) 16:27, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
i'm not seeing support in the sources for the claim that Seamus was interrogated before he was killed. i do see support for him being killed some period of minutes after he was first shot, but not for what happened in the intervening period. Am I missing some language in the sources that speciffically supports the claim of interrogation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles Creagh ( talk • contribs) 14:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
If you think thre's no difference between " interrogated" and "questioned" then why use the former when the source says the latter? Why not just go with the actual wording from the source, which you say means the same thing anyway? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles Creagh ( talk • contribs) 16:21, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Intetesting. That seems to suggest that an inline citation is required here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles Creagh ( talk • contribs) 17:00, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
The image of the memorial is captioned with Seamus's surname spelt with the - e ending. However from the image itself it's clear it was spelt without the -e. Should we remove the -e from the caption to make it consistent with the memorial? Or is the memorial itself incorrect as to the spelling of the name?
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 00:51, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
"It was reported that McElwaine died from his wounds, although a jury found that he had been interrogated while incapacitated for several minutes and then shot dead" is inaccurate and the first part is unsupported by the sources. This edit removed the original text of "McElwaine was interrogated for several minutes and then killed", claiming that "Interrogation then killed claim not sourced. An Phoblacht is partisan". However the text was sourced by the existing reference (and indeed, others further down in the same section), United Kingdom/Northern Ireland Human Rights, 1993, which was cited after the others. The relevant text from it is "A January inquest into the 1986 killing of Seamus McElwaine, an acknowledged Provisional IRA volunteer and escaped prisoner, ruled that soldiers had opened fire without giving him the opportunity to surrender and that McElwaine had actually been killed 5 minutes after being wounded in the initial gunfire".
Now that the original version of the text has been established and that the removal of text was in error, I am reinstating an amended version of that text consistent with the sources. Regards. 176.253.247.109 ( talk) 19:55, 26 May 2016 (UTC)