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Would a kind passerby mind reviewing this article closely for quality and correctness? This is my first article from scratch and I'd like to know if I'm doing anything wrong before continuing or heavily editing similar articles. In particular, has the amount of objectivity in my references created a solid argument for notability? I think parkour.com, Marvel, and IMDb(?) create a good base. The others are a bit more subjective, but I'm assuming, still usable. E.g. Ryan is a founder of WFPF, but this is much more removed than, say, his personal website or YouTube page, which I've not referenced. (Are fully personal websites completely off the chart, or can they be lightly referenced, for instance, for biography information not covered elsewhere?) And while he's heavily involved with Red Bull, they seem a very reputable and established entity, affecting athletic culture and community rather than merely a product manufacturer. Can I assume this is an appropriate second-party(?) source? Thanks for your help! Squish7 ( talk) 20:18, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
This is for Peridon or anyone to comment on... I appreciate everyone's help so far with my first article, but there's still a huge abyss between what a lot of people have told me directly, and what I feel the spirit and wording of WP:RS cover. Particularly I've been struggling with the vehemency of this quote, being the epitome of a prevalent attitude:
Firstly, WP:RS directly states: Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field. Does this not declare Ryan's personal webpage and YouTube videos definitively allowable sources for all sorts of information, i.e. biography, childhood, tastes, philosophies, etc.? And, does this not by definition welcome event dates and statistics from Red Bull (i.e. NFL / NBA stats), Ryan's status in Red Bull community, etc?...
Second, WP:RS states that internal document context is 1/3 of the weight of reliability. In combination with that editors are generally dynamic people capable of putting together a complex scenario (including analysis of strictly verifiable third-party sources and their relation to potentially questionable sources), can't the 1/3 in theory torpedo potential unreliability in certain scenarios? Especially if others agree and meet the same conclusion?
The stub I wrote has been up for over a week, from which I induce general tacit approval of my methods. I wrote it intuitively, and it feels like I've been jumping through hoops to technically quantify and justify my methods. I want to continue intuitively but this gap between all your rules and what I feel to be correct (backed by the continued existence of the article) is abysmal. It's not about the past; it's about that I don't want to write an 80-page article and be told that my methods weren't really appropriate to begin with. From what you say, my first 3 sources, used for 8 different references, are taboo. Yet I feel they're very verifiable, and that my judgement in using them as a collective with all the sources is quite kosher, and, that the spirit and wording of the WP:RS backs that initial intuition up. However, this is totally opposite your general statements.
There's an absolute wealth of Ryan Doyle information on YouTube, his sites, redbull.com, objective parkour sites that link to these things (but only a scant handful, which I feel establishes the rest as credible and not fraud), etc., etc... He uploads a lot of external material, e.g. a Red Bull commerical, which I saw "air" on YouTube as an official advertisement (i.e. the YouTube equivalent of TV commercials). Do I really need to go locate an independent cable television broadcaster of the commercial, or locate a database of official YouTube advertisement videos, to confirm it wasn't fabricated, and be able to take the tone of it being an official Red Bull advertisement, not a personal video that Doyle fabricated and uploaded to his site?
That is the scenario with at least half of all these videos, documentaries, interviews, event footage, etc. etc. etc. etc.... Can I really not say "Ryan Doyle went to Mardin, Turkey", even though he's walking around a video that's apparently Mardin, Turkey, because it was a "personal YouTube video"? These types of things are not lightly, but completely forbidden, by these general taboos multiple admins have listed. I really want to continue with this article, but uber-reliable third-party sources barely cover the material. I appreciate assurance that the article is likely well-written due to its non-removal, but I need something more than an 85% chance someone wont't say, "Well you really shouldn't have been using XYZ to begin with, and your extension solidifies its inappropriateness, warranting removal."
Thanks. Squish7 ( talk) 03:44, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
The following was begun on Cindamuse's talk page; I moved it here because it was more relevant to this page.
Thank you for your help with the Ryan Doyle article. If I could throw out one nitpick question, why did you remove the internal link to parkour? Is it because I already linked "traceur" to the article? They're little-known terms, and anybody who doesn't happen to follow the traceur link won't know what parkour is. Thanks again for your help. Squish7 ( talk) 22:23, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I can't possibly state this crystal enough. 97% of the information administrators have linked me to over the past month I have either read already, or been so intimiately familiar with in spirit that I could have written the policy files near-verbatim myself. You've helped me achieve one thing: the skill to defend unorthodox arguments with red tape. I will state exactly one time and table forever that I am beyond disgusted for the need for such things in life. So many ideas go forth crippled because of the need to spend literally tens of thousands of dollars to protect an idea because we can't have a society where we simply respect each other's property. It's an evil in the world I can't extinguish alone; maybe someday as part of a paladin army, who knows...
All that said, I'll move on. I will be confused forever how it's fathomable you could not recognize my knowledge base, but I won't bicker. I can only say that I believe you're decent people acting in good faith, but vigorously urge you to pursue the goal of elite instinctual recogniztion of situations where your behavior will be insulting, destructive, or wasteful of your and/or others' time. While I have learned how to better communicate on my end, the next person who approaches you in the same manner will not have that experience. Retroactively, you must realize there's something that could improve about your recognition skills if you caused someone to feel so alienated, not-listened-to, etc. My prose in combination with the information available to you (my article, my history, etc..) was definitely enough information to deduce I was aware of all these help files and policies, albeit you didn't have time to take it all into account. Perhaps, then, you can work on how to parse/filter such information on the fly. How to recognize patterns that would have signified my absolutely frustration.
I'll give you one epitome example for the purpose for offering help for improvement in this area. You need not read it, but at the aboslute least, please respect the personal time I'm taking to offering you this constructive criticism. It's not lengthly any more than linking me to dozens of pages of detailed policies and examples is lengthy. I was told, "Have a look at WP:RS" as the first sentence than anyone on Wikipedia offered me in respnose to the writing of my first article, for which I'd asked close examinination to see if I'd properly adhered to the rules. Intrinsically, you must realize that this can easily be taken as absolutely hostile. What this basically says is, "You didn't even bothering examining Wikipedia policy before you wrote your article", or "You haven't edited enough to have any general sense of sourcing policy", etc. There's just no other interpretation with the context of an article than in retrospect was very well-sourced, for which I either had to have closely read the policy files, or was, again, so intimately aware of them that I could have written them.
Everything from there we could bicker over forever, but I humbly offer you that that first sentence is as rude as hell. Q: "Have I done a good job closely adhering to guidlines?" A: "Have a look at the guidelines." Strip everything else, examine that one five-word phrase, evaluate it in context with the all the information available at that time, and I think you will find it a very erroneous and insulting thing to say. With that springboard, I urge you to examine the manner in which you interacted with me, ending in most recently, referral to three more help files on top of everything else as a comment to removing my latest section, that I believe I adhered to every single clause and statement. There has to be a vicious abyss of communication there, so I leave it forever as a tool for you to better your ability to parse information and respond tactfully to others in such situations, because they won't have this experience.
What I'm going to do from here is play lawyer. I will suggest article improvements and give thorough justification from the clauses of all the policies I am now intimiate with in letter as well as spirit. You need not evaluate anything; I have no expectations, and I will post nothing prone to controversy without express consent here first. This doesn't necessarily mean I'm consenting that I agree with your interpretations, however. I feel my latest change adhered to every bit of the three listed guidelines in the removal comment. If you don't, please explain why. It's just plain rude to revert edits without explanation, and from discussions left floating. Squish7 ( talk) 21:33, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to back some of the changed I'd like to make strictly with the policy files I've been directed to, and with direct statements offered me in the above discussions. This process is not solely for this article, nor solely for me. I've spent a deal of time investigating related articles in the parkour / freerunning / tricking niche (other public figures, other disciplines, etc.), and feel the whole kabob could use intelligent interpretation of the explicit rules that exist, that I don't feel fully cover these scenarios. Please consider your contributions to this discussion productive toward that wider goal.
The "Teaching" section of this revision was removed, quoting 3 policies as justification. I want to address those points in order to explain my revision's logic, which I haven't yet done. I almost posted a draft before going live, but I was told removals weren't very time-sensitive, and thought the draft was good enough to warrant posting, its draftiness implying it wasn't perfect. I'll address those points now.
1 Original research.
A small amount of my blurb was based on general intuition, but I felt what I wrote was fully covered in the five sources I gave in the main paragraph I wrote. How is this original research? Should I have referenced the sources more in detail, or more precisely?
2 Not a manual / guide / textbook
Firstly, the techniques that Doyle covers in the listed works either have Wikipedia articles describing them, or are the exact types of things that would (a mere mention of them here even able to be considered a tiny suggestion for whole articles). Further, I don't actually go into the techniques; I simply list them, as one would list the published works of a reputable expert in any art, science, or discipline. This is the exact opposite of being a manual or guide. As to their encyclopedic value, it would be absolutely contradictory to call for inclusion of experts on certain subjects, deem them notable, and not consider their teaching style or tutorial works worthy of mentioning in an article. The lack of strict official publishing as WP sees and knows it is irrelevant in light of the existence of a publication medium with value and price (free) that dwarfs any particular business or organization. That is, strict scholastic publication used to signify what's official and not. It's becoming no longer necessary.
3 Encylopedic value of self-publication
It's nearly unarguable that videos published or linked to on/from multiple sources involved establishing Doyle's notability (his own pages, Red Bull, other sources listed, etc.) establishes general "self-publication". All the main factors listed why/when self-published materials are not acceptable (when the publisher is not an established expert or is not notable, etc.) do not apply. What's left is the absolute technicality of the degree of expertise and notability of the publisher (Ryan Doyle, and to an extent, Red Bull). Intelligent analysis of all available information--something strictly called for in policies that thoroughly use the words "generally"/etc--should yield these publications latitude in light of that the nature of them defies the point of official publishing as WP defines it. The web is a free and vastly efficient medium for free publication. This fact nullifies much of the point of strict scholastic publication. All the sub-policies are generated and ultimate stem from the general but strict wordings of the purpose of WP
4 Not a promotion / advertisement / blog / etc
It is 100% impossible to reference a work without providing a link to that work so others may examine the reference. It's completely isomorphic to sticking in a link to some videos to promote them without regard for WP guidelines/etc. In light of most YouTube videos vehemently failing WP criteria for encylopedic material, then my entry is clearly suspect to this no-no on surface examination. This is why 1/3 of the entry is a careful disclaimer that the entry has being thoroughly weighed and considered. My insert was 100% suspect by intrinsic wording to most of these no-nos. I therefore spent incredible care making sure the blurb especially did not fit under any of these categories when examined closely, including nothing that when examined closely would be nontrivially sketchy.
I am extremely open to input/opinion. Squish7 ( talk) 04:38, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
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Would this be an appropriate edit of the first line, to integrate nicknames: Ryan Doyle (born September 22, 1984), a.k.a. Rad and Ry, is an international freerunner/ traceur, stuntman, and actor.
Squish7 ( talk) 10:21, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
What follows is a deep claim of how Doyle stands a reliable source for relevant topics (technique, philosophy of parkour, etc), via the unorthodox nature of utilizing the medium of video networking (e.g. YouTube) as a primary means of professional publication and information release. Making major edits on the structural, intrinsic assumption these references are taboo (i.e. without carefully weighing multiple particular references and precise policy clauses), is directly against the wording and spirit of WP policy. Doyle has studied media and a major university, and his videos are embedded or linked to on many external reliable sources, both well-establishing his publication means as stable and reliable.
Here I will address the major concerns that are intrinsically raised by this use. This section's length and the involved analysis I ask before removing my work is a direct result of the complexity and rarity of that YouTube can constitute strict, verifiable, encyclopedic material. TL;DR does not apply as a defense of not considering these issues. I may file an immediate dispute claim if edits are made with no evaluation of the context and references of the article, or with no explanation other than general references to policy sections that, rhetorically, govern these issues. I am aware of the last-resort nature of such a claim, but I've already run through an exhausting step-by-step process with a reputable editor. It would be very unreasonable to ask me to go through that process with every, single, editor that has the exact same concerns. It would be a full time job; I can't do it, and I hope higher-level WP authorities and administrators respect that massive effort when considering the strange nature of such an instant request, and the exhaustive nature of having my character and integrity attacked. (I'm not identifying any editor(s) here.)
Here I address every policy that has been referred to me that governs or may potentially apply to the video use outlined above:
WP:RS -- 1. The very top of the "Reliable Sources" guideline state that an established expert or authority in a subject matter is a reliable source. This absolutely, directly establishes Doyle to be a reliable source for information about parkour technique and such. 2. His self-publication process, while unorthodox, is solid if examined intrinsically, not by structural patterns sans careful attention to the context of the involved sources. Mainly, he publishes video works that, while short, susinctly wrap up philosophies, techniques, and events. Please note he majored in media, giving him even more backing for utilizing the medium of video and the internet professionally.
WP:YT -- The very first sentence of this section is this: "There is no blanket ban on linking to YouTube or other user-submitted video sites, as long as the links abide by the guidelines on this page." The policies are much more lenient about referencing YouTube and such sites (including Doyle's homepage, on which he embeds many of the videos on his official YT channel) than many editors consider YouTube via experience dealing with abuse of them. Removing video references or links in the article with only a reference to general policy sections without taking into account context is completely against policy. If you think a particular video is an innapropriate reference, please quote policies precisely in combination with direct references to the video(s) you think are questionable.
WP:QS -- "Questionable sources should be used only as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves" (bold emphasis in help file, i.e. not added). Even if a certain video of Doyle's is considered a questionable source via policy and guidelines, it still may be used as a source about Doyle, "especially" in articles regarding him. This logically supports reliable (non-questionable) videos as extra usable for information about Doyle.
WP:SELFPUB -- "Self-published sources may be used as sources of information about themselves." (Support for above; the bold emphasis is part of the quote, not mine.)
WP:NOTGUIDE -- This long list of taboo things present strong suspicion and potential flags that use of Doyle's videos may be violatory. If you think any of these conditions apply to an edit, please consider all the precedents in WP for appropriate uses. E.g., if a video is listed with a description that you feel falls into such a category, please consider the appropriateness of a more minor entry. That is, in such a case, perhaps the description should be trivialized or eliminated, and the video publication in question listed in the way anyone's publications are listed, but not elaborated on. Simply removing a whole section on a vague, unbacked recognition of the general pattern (e.g. perhaps most people that link to a YouTube video commit one or several of the listed taboos), is extremely unwarranted.
WP:NOTPROMOTION -- It's difficult to quantify what does or does not constitute self-promotion in this arena. All I can say is that I personally will do my best not to commit any of these crimes. Again, what I'm mainly getting at in this blurb is the generals. If you consider all mere mention of notable video work taboo, you're demonstrating absolute inattention to the justifications I've layed out. Again, that's something I may simply file a dispute claim against, because I'm just tired of arguing these insanely overwhelming basics.
WP:OR -- I've done a thorough, exhaustive job considering all the information at hand. While I have done research outside of links directly provided, I've aimed to limit everything in the article to direct references. That said, those particular reference still call for careful analysis to verify or refute summaries and commentaries on them. Please make claims that the article contains O/R with caution, examining the sources listed yourself. If you're not doing this, you're ignoring every third clause of all policy help files that speak of a lack of blanket rules, and that there exceptions to such-and-such.
WP:V, WP:VRS, WP:GNG, WP:BIO, WP:RSN -- These are more sources that apply. I have not combed these sources, but I've been pretty familiar with them, and just can't provide an essay for every single clause in the policies that applies to editing an article. The above explanations should cover an extraordinary number of my justifications.
Squish7 ( talk) 00:01, 2 January 2012 (UTC) (most recent revision)
There don't seem to be any specific URLs on his homepage as you click around... it always says " http://www.ryandoyle.co.uk" in the address bar. What I've been doing is using the same URL, but tagging and titling references in a way that directs where to click to find the relevant reference, trying not to sound too techy. E.g.:
Unless there's some mechanism for handling this scenario, I think it's a good solution...(?) Squish7 ( talk) 06:07, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Tagged since January 2012 :
Just my view. Thanks.
benzband (
talk)
19:39, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Updated :
Note: A dispute regarding this issue is under resolution process at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Ryan Doyle.
Sleep? What is that? ;) Squish7 made it clear through various threats that he did not want me editing the article. In lieu of cleanup, I rather opted for the cleanup tags to officially indicate areas that need improvement. None were redundant or unexpected, with only the most specific and highest priority issues presented. Note, I didn't add "multiple tags", but consolidated issues in accordance with guidelines. All issues were previously discussed. Sometimes when others just refuse to "get it", the end result is to walk away. In the end, I chose to place the tags to officially identify the areas needing improvement. This was met with Squish7 removing the maintenance tags and filing a dispute. I refuse to engage in fruitless arguments with him. If he truly needs help, I'm here. My only goal has been to help him to ensure the article clearly establishes notability, which has been a bit borderline due to lack of significant reliable, secondary sources. As stated before, my support is not for my benefit, but for Squish7's and for the encyclopedia. Oy vey for trying to help. As far as your example, the links provided to Squish7 explain the issues in vast detail. In my opinion, it's redundant to copy and paste or paraphrase the guidelines for some readers that are unable to read them for themselves. But still, I have attempted to converse with him and provide guidance 'til I'm blue in the face. Claims that he read and "committed policies and guidelines to memory" are essentially met with a tilt of the head to the left and a right eyebrow lifted. This is not an insult, but observation, considering all factors. In good faith, at the most, he has been misinterpreting policy and guidelines. In my opinion, Squish7 either read the policies and guidelines and was unable to comprehend them, or chose to ignore them. Simply an honest and direct assessment about an editor's behavior. Nobody is perfect, but to claim to have a sure knowledge of the guidelines is questionable, based on his actions. In all regards, I sincerely appreciate your input. Best regards, Cind. amuse (Cindy) 00:01, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
I have a dispute with any editor challenging Doyle's reliability as an author for information about himself and of parkour technique. I've continued to evolve the clarity of my defenses. This is a starting point for explaining my root claim. I've given exhausting details elsewhere.
Ryan Doyle utilizes video networking as a primary means of publishing. He studied media in college, and deals with a discipline primarily youth-based (teens, 20s, etc.). This gives him incredible motive and right to utilize the web as a medium for professionally outputting official works. The problem with sourcing here is that the strong use of video references at a surface glance, reeks of probable violation of policy clauses outlining basic taboos. Worse, anyone truly versed in textual publications instinctively rejects the idea of utilizing video to publish professionally.
I was well aware of these warning flags in spirit as well as mechanism before I created the article, and have spent months collecting information and laying a solid foundation for Doyle's notability, expertise, encyclopedic worth, etc. The core entry has remained intact, but every time I try to minimally expand it utilizing Doyle's videos a major element, my work is removed.
Core arguments for the newest sections:
Philosophy of Parkour -- The guidelines say that questionable sources on social networking sites (e.g. YouTube) may be used especially for information about the author. Doyle's philosophies generally constitute information about himself. Their notability is a direct result of the general notability I've painstakingly established. I specifically referenced multiple sources that feature his videos, not just his YouTube channel.
Safety & Science -- An established expert is the epitome of a reliable source according to policy. Doyle would be a reliable source to quote in any external article about parkour techniques specific to his expertise. Hence, he's exceptionally reliable for his own dealings, teachings, etc., of parkour.
I've reduced what could easily be an 50-page article down to a couple mere paragraphs that near-infinitely adhere to policy. No one has yet to even discuss the particulars I've laid out. Please do so here, or see above for extended details. Squish7 ( talk) 21:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
The following is an excerpt from the dispute board; this is the only response I've received to date actually attentive to my requests for comments examining content and context. It's the type of thing I was looking for at my first question (please review the article). I consider it a general, semi-default analysis than your average editor would have addressing my question, so please feel free to jump in here and skip everything above. Squish7 ( talk) 08:03, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Before we talk about balance, let me dissect the sources you have used. First the ones you listed as being objective: I see Cayman Compass as being a reliable source that we can use, but I think that it is of limited use in determining notability because it is a local paper. (I've been in my local paper, and I wouldn't say I deserve a Wikipedia article.) Marvel Comics doesn't look like a reliable source, I'm afraid - they are obviously trying to promote their products, i.e. Daredevil, and I can't imagine that they have much independent fact-checking going on. I would maybe say we could use it to cite simple facts, but there are probably better sources for the few simple facts it contains anyway.
I would say that parkour.com and American Parkour are reliable sources, but beware of using them when drawing comparisons between parkour and other sports, as they will obviously treat parkour in a favourable light. The UWIRE interview is obviously a primary source, as it is Doyle himself providing most of the content - it does, however, show that someone considered him notable enough to interview him. I presume UWIRE is a student newspaper or something like that, though, which means they can only count towards notability so much. The argument for that is similar to the one for the Cayman Compass above. However, we must be careful to check who actually published it - in this case I see that the UWIRE interview was uploaded to YouTube by a user named RyanDoylePKTV, which makes me doubt that it has actually been published by someone independent of Doyle.
The sources you classified as "semi-objective" I would class as primary sources - they are obviously involved with Doyle and we shouldn't expect them to be impartial in their views on him. I think we should treat them the same as we would his personal sites. So at my count of secondary sources, we have three: two specialist parkour sources and one local newspaper. This is not the best evidence of notability, but I think that this, plus the other mentions in Google News, plus the fact that he won at least one major parkour competition would be enough to see the article kept were it nominated for deletion. Still, it doesn't look like enough to write a good-length article to me, so as I see it the article will have to be made shorter. You don't have to take my word for all of this though - that is what we have the reliable sources noticeboard for. Let me know what your thoughts are after reading this. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 20:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
I've pared down the article quite drastically - hopefully it obeys the policies and guidelines somewhat better now. If anyone has any questions about why I did what I did, feel free to ask. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 14:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
The Ultimate Parkour & Freerunning Book says Manchester. ESPN says Liverpool. Maybe he was born in one place but now lives in another? not sure but wanted to mention it. Cptnono ( talk) 21:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Recently there has been disagreement at this article about whether Doyle should be called a "parkour practioner", a "freerunner", or both. This has led to this edit being reverted four times, which amounts to edit warring, in my opinion. Faeress has outlined their position at User talk:Feraess. Faeress's argument is that mainstream sources such as this New York Times article are not reliable for calling Doyle a parkour practitioner, because they are misconstruing the nature of parkour. However, I would argue that the relative obscurity of the origins of parkour, coupled with the attention by mainstream sources like the NYT, has changed the definition of parkour itself.
I think that we should base our articles on what mainstream sources like the NYT define parkour as, rather than whatever the original definition might have been. Ignoring the majority of mainstream sources in this way seems to me to constitute original research, which is forbidden on Wikipedia. I would be open to a compromise solution, though - perhaps we can call Doyle a parkour practitioner, but say that what he does may not fit with the definition of parkour as it was originally intended? Let me know your thoughts on this. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 09:18, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
In order to include the statement "Ryan is a freerunner and Parkour practitioner" you have to provide evidence that he is a freerunner and you also have to provide evidence that he is a Parkour practitioner. If Parkour and Freerunning are the same thing then we don't need to use both names. One will suffice. However the statement in question treats them as two separate things, so to support it you need reliable sources for each. The fact is, there is lots of evidence to support the freerunner part and no evidence to support the Parkour part.
All of the sources describe Ryan as a freerunner. Even the Red Bull website which lists Ryan as a Parkour Ambassador describes him as a freerunner rather than a Parkour practitioner. There is only one source which contains any kind of statement about whether or not he practises Parkour, and that is the Daily Trojan article in which Ryan states that he is 'a freerunner who practises parkour', directly after the article states that he does not like to distinguish between the two. All other sources contain the same qualification. Even if you consider sources which only imply that Ryan practises Parkour rather than make a statement, the only sources that exist are those which also claim that Parkour and Freerunning are the same thing. There is no source which states that Ryan practises two separate things called Freerunning and Parkour.
Even though the sources are unreliable in their labelling, they are consistent in their descriptions of what he does. In every source, Ryan is described as someone who does acrobatics, flips and tricks, and uses movement as a form of expression. We know what he does, we just need to work out what label to use.
Stating that the definition of Parkour has changed seems to me to be original research. I don't know of any reliable sources which gives this view, and quite honestly I don't see how an article in the New York Times has any bearing on how the discipline is defined. Parkour is clearly defined by its creator and its practitioners, and the definition of Parkour seems to be a subject on which they have the final say, not the New York Times. There's no distinction between 'original Parkour' and 'modern Parkour'. Parkour hasn't changed. The situation is the same as it always has been. There are people who practise Parkour, there are people who do other things, and there are people who can't tell the difference.
Ignoring a large number of sources is not original research when those sources are unreliable. Parkour is a very popular subject with the media, but most importantly it's a new subject and a lot of stuff gets published without much fact-checking. See WP:CEE. It's harder to do a good job on fact-checking when you don't have access to anyone who knows the facts. As I said in our discussion on my talk page, given that most new practitioners based their understanding on poorly-checked media reports, you now have media organisations producing poorly-checked reports on practitoners whose own facts are poorly-checked. Consequently, many media organisations that would normally be considered reliable are unreliable on the subject of Parkour. The amount of nonsense written about Parkour is huge.
If a source gets basic facts about a subject wrong then we cannot consider it as a reliable source on that subject. Specifically, on the subject of whether or not Ryan practises Parkour, if a source gets basic facts about Parkour incorrect then it is not a reliable source. Also, Ryan himself is not a reliable source. He gives inconsistent definitions of what constitutes Parkour, none of which are entirely accurate.
If you think that Parkour absolutely has to be mentioned in this article, then it should say something accurate like, "Ryan is sometimes labeled as a Parkour practitioner by those who don't distinguish between Parkour, Freerunning and acrobatics [1]." It's not notable enough for the first sentence though.
We should leave a discussion of what constitutes Parkour to the Parkour article, where as a result of a lot of recent tidying and correction it's now clearly defined. Incidentally, it should have a capital P since it is the name of a specific discipline rather than just an activity. Feraess ( talk) 12:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
(BTW, I merged my section on this subject into yours since we posted concurrently) Feraess ( talk) 13:13, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
For reference there are some major holes in the article, the fact that Ryan runs a well-established academy and entertainment production company. It should especially be expanded to include his prominence as an educator, which there's support for, but I'm afraid not enough to insert this without argument sans milking all available sources. I think in general that an academy/school of substance is more notable than an individual, perhaps not in this case, but the following should at least be heavily observed for insertion here or new articles. Maybe a sentence or two here would at least suffice. I'm too fatigued haggling all these infinitesimal wordings to spare the time to do this, but they should be on a to-do list for this page in any case:
I'm increasingly of the opinion that Airborn Academy should have its own article, I just don't know if there are references to support it yet. In 2013 Art of Motion interview, Ryan called it the biggest indoor PK/FR training center in the UK. Squish7 ( talk) 00:44, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Ryan didn't compete in the 2013 AOM but was interviewed for several minutes, starting about 42:50. It was a prominent interview but due to some mic glitch it was next to inaudible; the video was also skipping here and there. I amplified it and did my best to transcribe it so there's at least one copy somewhere for permanent reference. While Ryan was recovering from an operation (treatment of his 2007 leg injury), it's not completely clear whether he would have competed if he'd been able to, as the video says it only took the top 6 contenders from last year, while he was 8th, though he does state he was hoping to compete.
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Would a kind passerby mind reviewing this article closely for quality and correctness? This is my first article from scratch and I'd like to know if I'm doing anything wrong before continuing or heavily editing similar articles. In particular, has the amount of objectivity in my references created a solid argument for notability? I think parkour.com, Marvel, and IMDb(?) create a good base. The others are a bit more subjective, but I'm assuming, still usable. E.g. Ryan is a founder of WFPF, but this is much more removed than, say, his personal website or YouTube page, which I've not referenced. (Are fully personal websites completely off the chart, or can they be lightly referenced, for instance, for biography information not covered elsewhere?) And while he's heavily involved with Red Bull, they seem a very reputable and established entity, affecting athletic culture and community rather than merely a product manufacturer. Can I assume this is an appropriate second-party(?) source? Thanks for your help! Squish7 ( talk) 20:18, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
This is for Peridon or anyone to comment on... I appreciate everyone's help so far with my first article, but there's still a huge abyss between what a lot of people have told me directly, and what I feel the spirit and wording of WP:RS cover. Particularly I've been struggling with the vehemency of this quote, being the epitome of a prevalent attitude:
Firstly, WP:RS directly states: Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field. Does this not declare Ryan's personal webpage and YouTube videos definitively allowable sources for all sorts of information, i.e. biography, childhood, tastes, philosophies, etc.? And, does this not by definition welcome event dates and statistics from Red Bull (i.e. NFL / NBA stats), Ryan's status in Red Bull community, etc?...
Second, WP:RS states that internal document context is 1/3 of the weight of reliability. In combination with that editors are generally dynamic people capable of putting together a complex scenario (including analysis of strictly verifiable third-party sources and their relation to potentially questionable sources), can't the 1/3 in theory torpedo potential unreliability in certain scenarios? Especially if others agree and meet the same conclusion?
The stub I wrote has been up for over a week, from which I induce general tacit approval of my methods. I wrote it intuitively, and it feels like I've been jumping through hoops to technically quantify and justify my methods. I want to continue intuitively but this gap between all your rules and what I feel to be correct (backed by the continued existence of the article) is abysmal. It's not about the past; it's about that I don't want to write an 80-page article and be told that my methods weren't really appropriate to begin with. From what you say, my first 3 sources, used for 8 different references, are taboo. Yet I feel they're very verifiable, and that my judgement in using them as a collective with all the sources is quite kosher, and, that the spirit and wording of the WP:RS backs that initial intuition up. However, this is totally opposite your general statements.
There's an absolute wealth of Ryan Doyle information on YouTube, his sites, redbull.com, objective parkour sites that link to these things (but only a scant handful, which I feel establishes the rest as credible and not fraud), etc., etc... He uploads a lot of external material, e.g. a Red Bull commerical, which I saw "air" on YouTube as an official advertisement (i.e. the YouTube equivalent of TV commercials). Do I really need to go locate an independent cable television broadcaster of the commercial, or locate a database of official YouTube advertisement videos, to confirm it wasn't fabricated, and be able to take the tone of it being an official Red Bull advertisement, not a personal video that Doyle fabricated and uploaded to his site?
That is the scenario with at least half of all these videos, documentaries, interviews, event footage, etc. etc. etc. etc.... Can I really not say "Ryan Doyle went to Mardin, Turkey", even though he's walking around a video that's apparently Mardin, Turkey, because it was a "personal YouTube video"? These types of things are not lightly, but completely forbidden, by these general taboos multiple admins have listed. I really want to continue with this article, but uber-reliable third-party sources barely cover the material. I appreciate assurance that the article is likely well-written due to its non-removal, but I need something more than an 85% chance someone wont't say, "Well you really shouldn't have been using XYZ to begin with, and your extension solidifies its inappropriateness, warranting removal."
Thanks. Squish7 ( talk) 03:44, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
The following was begun on Cindamuse's talk page; I moved it here because it was more relevant to this page.
Thank you for your help with the Ryan Doyle article. If I could throw out one nitpick question, why did you remove the internal link to parkour? Is it because I already linked "traceur" to the article? They're little-known terms, and anybody who doesn't happen to follow the traceur link won't know what parkour is. Thanks again for your help. Squish7 ( talk) 22:23, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I can't possibly state this crystal enough. 97% of the information administrators have linked me to over the past month I have either read already, or been so intimiately familiar with in spirit that I could have written the policy files near-verbatim myself. You've helped me achieve one thing: the skill to defend unorthodox arguments with red tape. I will state exactly one time and table forever that I am beyond disgusted for the need for such things in life. So many ideas go forth crippled because of the need to spend literally tens of thousands of dollars to protect an idea because we can't have a society where we simply respect each other's property. It's an evil in the world I can't extinguish alone; maybe someday as part of a paladin army, who knows...
All that said, I'll move on. I will be confused forever how it's fathomable you could not recognize my knowledge base, but I won't bicker. I can only say that I believe you're decent people acting in good faith, but vigorously urge you to pursue the goal of elite instinctual recogniztion of situations where your behavior will be insulting, destructive, or wasteful of your and/or others' time. While I have learned how to better communicate on my end, the next person who approaches you in the same manner will not have that experience. Retroactively, you must realize there's something that could improve about your recognition skills if you caused someone to feel so alienated, not-listened-to, etc. My prose in combination with the information available to you (my article, my history, etc..) was definitely enough information to deduce I was aware of all these help files and policies, albeit you didn't have time to take it all into account. Perhaps, then, you can work on how to parse/filter such information on the fly. How to recognize patterns that would have signified my absolutely frustration.
I'll give you one epitome example for the purpose for offering help for improvement in this area. You need not read it, but at the aboslute least, please respect the personal time I'm taking to offering you this constructive criticism. It's not lengthly any more than linking me to dozens of pages of detailed policies and examples is lengthy. I was told, "Have a look at WP:RS" as the first sentence than anyone on Wikipedia offered me in respnose to the writing of my first article, for which I'd asked close examinination to see if I'd properly adhered to the rules. Intrinsically, you must realize that this can easily be taken as absolutely hostile. What this basically says is, "You didn't even bothering examining Wikipedia policy before you wrote your article", or "You haven't edited enough to have any general sense of sourcing policy", etc. There's just no other interpretation with the context of an article than in retrospect was very well-sourced, for which I either had to have closely read the policy files, or was, again, so intimately aware of them that I could have written them.
Everything from there we could bicker over forever, but I humbly offer you that that first sentence is as rude as hell. Q: "Have I done a good job closely adhering to guidlines?" A: "Have a look at the guidelines." Strip everything else, examine that one five-word phrase, evaluate it in context with the all the information available at that time, and I think you will find it a very erroneous and insulting thing to say. With that springboard, I urge you to examine the manner in which you interacted with me, ending in most recently, referral to three more help files on top of everything else as a comment to removing my latest section, that I believe I adhered to every single clause and statement. There has to be a vicious abyss of communication there, so I leave it forever as a tool for you to better your ability to parse information and respond tactfully to others in such situations, because they won't have this experience.
What I'm going to do from here is play lawyer. I will suggest article improvements and give thorough justification from the clauses of all the policies I am now intimiate with in letter as well as spirit. You need not evaluate anything; I have no expectations, and I will post nothing prone to controversy without express consent here first. This doesn't necessarily mean I'm consenting that I agree with your interpretations, however. I feel my latest change adhered to every bit of the three listed guidelines in the removal comment. If you don't, please explain why. It's just plain rude to revert edits without explanation, and from discussions left floating. Squish7 ( talk) 21:33, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to back some of the changed I'd like to make strictly with the policy files I've been directed to, and with direct statements offered me in the above discussions. This process is not solely for this article, nor solely for me. I've spent a deal of time investigating related articles in the parkour / freerunning / tricking niche (other public figures, other disciplines, etc.), and feel the whole kabob could use intelligent interpretation of the explicit rules that exist, that I don't feel fully cover these scenarios. Please consider your contributions to this discussion productive toward that wider goal.
The "Teaching" section of this revision was removed, quoting 3 policies as justification. I want to address those points in order to explain my revision's logic, which I haven't yet done. I almost posted a draft before going live, but I was told removals weren't very time-sensitive, and thought the draft was good enough to warrant posting, its draftiness implying it wasn't perfect. I'll address those points now.
1 Original research.
A small amount of my blurb was based on general intuition, but I felt what I wrote was fully covered in the five sources I gave in the main paragraph I wrote. How is this original research? Should I have referenced the sources more in detail, or more precisely?
2 Not a manual / guide / textbook
Firstly, the techniques that Doyle covers in the listed works either have Wikipedia articles describing them, or are the exact types of things that would (a mere mention of them here even able to be considered a tiny suggestion for whole articles). Further, I don't actually go into the techniques; I simply list them, as one would list the published works of a reputable expert in any art, science, or discipline. This is the exact opposite of being a manual or guide. As to their encyclopedic value, it would be absolutely contradictory to call for inclusion of experts on certain subjects, deem them notable, and not consider their teaching style or tutorial works worthy of mentioning in an article. The lack of strict official publishing as WP sees and knows it is irrelevant in light of the existence of a publication medium with value and price (free) that dwarfs any particular business or organization. That is, strict scholastic publication used to signify what's official and not. It's becoming no longer necessary.
3 Encylopedic value of self-publication
It's nearly unarguable that videos published or linked to on/from multiple sources involved establishing Doyle's notability (his own pages, Red Bull, other sources listed, etc.) establishes general "self-publication". All the main factors listed why/when self-published materials are not acceptable (when the publisher is not an established expert or is not notable, etc.) do not apply. What's left is the absolute technicality of the degree of expertise and notability of the publisher (Ryan Doyle, and to an extent, Red Bull). Intelligent analysis of all available information--something strictly called for in policies that thoroughly use the words "generally"/etc--should yield these publications latitude in light of that the nature of them defies the point of official publishing as WP defines it. The web is a free and vastly efficient medium for free publication. This fact nullifies much of the point of strict scholastic publication. All the sub-policies are generated and ultimate stem from the general but strict wordings of the purpose of WP
4 Not a promotion / advertisement / blog / etc
It is 100% impossible to reference a work without providing a link to that work so others may examine the reference. It's completely isomorphic to sticking in a link to some videos to promote them without regard for WP guidelines/etc. In light of most YouTube videos vehemently failing WP criteria for encylopedic material, then my entry is clearly suspect to this no-no on surface examination. This is why 1/3 of the entry is a careful disclaimer that the entry has being thoroughly weighed and considered. My insert was 100% suspect by intrinsic wording to most of these no-nos. I therefore spent incredible care making sure the blurb especially did not fit under any of these categories when examined closely, including nothing that when examined closely would be nontrivially sketchy.
I am extremely open to input/opinion. Squish7 ( talk) 04:38, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
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Would this be an appropriate edit of the first line, to integrate nicknames: Ryan Doyle (born September 22, 1984), a.k.a. Rad and Ry, is an international freerunner/ traceur, stuntman, and actor.
Squish7 ( talk) 10:21, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
What follows is a deep claim of how Doyle stands a reliable source for relevant topics (technique, philosophy of parkour, etc), via the unorthodox nature of utilizing the medium of video networking (e.g. YouTube) as a primary means of professional publication and information release. Making major edits on the structural, intrinsic assumption these references are taboo (i.e. without carefully weighing multiple particular references and precise policy clauses), is directly against the wording and spirit of WP policy. Doyle has studied media and a major university, and his videos are embedded or linked to on many external reliable sources, both well-establishing his publication means as stable and reliable.
Here I will address the major concerns that are intrinsically raised by this use. This section's length and the involved analysis I ask before removing my work is a direct result of the complexity and rarity of that YouTube can constitute strict, verifiable, encyclopedic material. TL;DR does not apply as a defense of not considering these issues. I may file an immediate dispute claim if edits are made with no evaluation of the context and references of the article, or with no explanation other than general references to policy sections that, rhetorically, govern these issues. I am aware of the last-resort nature of such a claim, but I've already run through an exhausting step-by-step process with a reputable editor. It would be very unreasonable to ask me to go through that process with every, single, editor that has the exact same concerns. It would be a full time job; I can't do it, and I hope higher-level WP authorities and administrators respect that massive effort when considering the strange nature of such an instant request, and the exhaustive nature of having my character and integrity attacked. (I'm not identifying any editor(s) here.)
Here I address every policy that has been referred to me that governs or may potentially apply to the video use outlined above:
WP:RS -- 1. The very top of the "Reliable Sources" guideline state that an established expert or authority in a subject matter is a reliable source. This absolutely, directly establishes Doyle to be a reliable source for information about parkour technique and such. 2. His self-publication process, while unorthodox, is solid if examined intrinsically, not by structural patterns sans careful attention to the context of the involved sources. Mainly, he publishes video works that, while short, susinctly wrap up philosophies, techniques, and events. Please note he majored in media, giving him even more backing for utilizing the medium of video and the internet professionally.
WP:YT -- The very first sentence of this section is this: "There is no blanket ban on linking to YouTube or other user-submitted video sites, as long as the links abide by the guidelines on this page." The policies are much more lenient about referencing YouTube and such sites (including Doyle's homepage, on which he embeds many of the videos on his official YT channel) than many editors consider YouTube via experience dealing with abuse of them. Removing video references or links in the article with only a reference to general policy sections without taking into account context is completely against policy. If you think a particular video is an innapropriate reference, please quote policies precisely in combination with direct references to the video(s) you think are questionable.
WP:QS -- "Questionable sources should be used only as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves" (bold emphasis in help file, i.e. not added). Even if a certain video of Doyle's is considered a questionable source via policy and guidelines, it still may be used as a source about Doyle, "especially" in articles regarding him. This logically supports reliable (non-questionable) videos as extra usable for information about Doyle.
WP:SELFPUB -- "Self-published sources may be used as sources of information about themselves." (Support for above; the bold emphasis is part of the quote, not mine.)
WP:NOTGUIDE -- This long list of taboo things present strong suspicion and potential flags that use of Doyle's videos may be violatory. If you think any of these conditions apply to an edit, please consider all the precedents in WP for appropriate uses. E.g., if a video is listed with a description that you feel falls into such a category, please consider the appropriateness of a more minor entry. That is, in such a case, perhaps the description should be trivialized or eliminated, and the video publication in question listed in the way anyone's publications are listed, but not elaborated on. Simply removing a whole section on a vague, unbacked recognition of the general pattern (e.g. perhaps most people that link to a YouTube video commit one or several of the listed taboos), is extremely unwarranted.
WP:NOTPROMOTION -- It's difficult to quantify what does or does not constitute self-promotion in this arena. All I can say is that I personally will do my best not to commit any of these crimes. Again, what I'm mainly getting at in this blurb is the generals. If you consider all mere mention of notable video work taboo, you're demonstrating absolute inattention to the justifications I've layed out. Again, that's something I may simply file a dispute claim against, because I'm just tired of arguing these insanely overwhelming basics.
WP:OR -- I've done a thorough, exhaustive job considering all the information at hand. While I have done research outside of links directly provided, I've aimed to limit everything in the article to direct references. That said, those particular reference still call for careful analysis to verify or refute summaries and commentaries on them. Please make claims that the article contains O/R with caution, examining the sources listed yourself. If you're not doing this, you're ignoring every third clause of all policy help files that speak of a lack of blanket rules, and that there exceptions to such-and-such.
WP:V, WP:VRS, WP:GNG, WP:BIO, WP:RSN -- These are more sources that apply. I have not combed these sources, but I've been pretty familiar with them, and just can't provide an essay for every single clause in the policies that applies to editing an article. The above explanations should cover an extraordinary number of my justifications.
Squish7 ( talk) 00:01, 2 January 2012 (UTC) (most recent revision)
There don't seem to be any specific URLs on his homepage as you click around... it always says " http://www.ryandoyle.co.uk" in the address bar. What I've been doing is using the same URL, but tagging and titling references in a way that directs where to click to find the relevant reference, trying not to sound too techy. E.g.:
Unless there's some mechanism for handling this scenario, I think it's a good solution...(?) Squish7 ( talk) 06:07, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Tagged since January 2012 :
Just my view. Thanks.
benzband (
talk)
19:39, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Updated :
Note: A dispute regarding this issue is under resolution process at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Ryan Doyle.
Sleep? What is that? ;) Squish7 made it clear through various threats that he did not want me editing the article. In lieu of cleanup, I rather opted for the cleanup tags to officially indicate areas that need improvement. None were redundant or unexpected, with only the most specific and highest priority issues presented. Note, I didn't add "multiple tags", but consolidated issues in accordance with guidelines. All issues were previously discussed. Sometimes when others just refuse to "get it", the end result is to walk away. In the end, I chose to place the tags to officially identify the areas needing improvement. This was met with Squish7 removing the maintenance tags and filing a dispute. I refuse to engage in fruitless arguments with him. If he truly needs help, I'm here. My only goal has been to help him to ensure the article clearly establishes notability, which has been a bit borderline due to lack of significant reliable, secondary sources. As stated before, my support is not for my benefit, but for Squish7's and for the encyclopedia. Oy vey for trying to help. As far as your example, the links provided to Squish7 explain the issues in vast detail. In my opinion, it's redundant to copy and paste or paraphrase the guidelines for some readers that are unable to read them for themselves. But still, I have attempted to converse with him and provide guidance 'til I'm blue in the face. Claims that he read and "committed policies and guidelines to memory" are essentially met with a tilt of the head to the left and a right eyebrow lifted. This is not an insult, but observation, considering all factors. In good faith, at the most, he has been misinterpreting policy and guidelines. In my opinion, Squish7 either read the policies and guidelines and was unable to comprehend them, or chose to ignore them. Simply an honest and direct assessment about an editor's behavior. Nobody is perfect, but to claim to have a sure knowledge of the guidelines is questionable, based on his actions. In all regards, I sincerely appreciate your input. Best regards, Cind. amuse (Cindy) 00:01, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
I have a dispute with any editor challenging Doyle's reliability as an author for information about himself and of parkour technique. I've continued to evolve the clarity of my defenses. This is a starting point for explaining my root claim. I've given exhausting details elsewhere.
Ryan Doyle utilizes video networking as a primary means of publishing. He studied media in college, and deals with a discipline primarily youth-based (teens, 20s, etc.). This gives him incredible motive and right to utilize the web as a medium for professionally outputting official works. The problem with sourcing here is that the strong use of video references at a surface glance, reeks of probable violation of policy clauses outlining basic taboos. Worse, anyone truly versed in textual publications instinctively rejects the idea of utilizing video to publish professionally.
I was well aware of these warning flags in spirit as well as mechanism before I created the article, and have spent months collecting information and laying a solid foundation for Doyle's notability, expertise, encyclopedic worth, etc. The core entry has remained intact, but every time I try to minimally expand it utilizing Doyle's videos a major element, my work is removed.
Core arguments for the newest sections:
Philosophy of Parkour -- The guidelines say that questionable sources on social networking sites (e.g. YouTube) may be used especially for information about the author. Doyle's philosophies generally constitute information about himself. Their notability is a direct result of the general notability I've painstakingly established. I specifically referenced multiple sources that feature his videos, not just his YouTube channel.
Safety & Science -- An established expert is the epitome of a reliable source according to policy. Doyle would be a reliable source to quote in any external article about parkour techniques specific to his expertise. Hence, he's exceptionally reliable for his own dealings, teachings, etc., of parkour.
I've reduced what could easily be an 50-page article down to a couple mere paragraphs that near-infinitely adhere to policy. No one has yet to even discuss the particulars I've laid out. Please do so here, or see above for extended details. Squish7 ( talk) 21:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
The following is an excerpt from the dispute board; this is the only response I've received to date actually attentive to my requests for comments examining content and context. It's the type of thing I was looking for at my first question (please review the article). I consider it a general, semi-default analysis than your average editor would have addressing my question, so please feel free to jump in here and skip everything above. Squish7 ( talk) 08:03, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Before we talk about balance, let me dissect the sources you have used. First the ones you listed as being objective: I see Cayman Compass as being a reliable source that we can use, but I think that it is of limited use in determining notability because it is a local paper. (I've been in my local paper, and I wouldn't say I deserve a Wikipedia article.) Marvel Comics doesn't look like a reliable source, I'm afraid - they are obviously trying to promote their products, i.e. Daredevil, and I can't imagine that they have much independent fact-checking going on. I would maybe say we could use it to cite simple facts, but there are probably better sources for the few simple facts it contains anyway.
I would say that parkour.com and American Parkour are reliable sources, but beware of using them when drawing comparisons between parkour and other sports, as they will obviously treat parkour in a favourable light. The UWIRE interview is obviously a primary source, as it is Doyle himself providing most of the content - it does, however, show that someone considered him notable enough to interview him. I presume UWIRE is a student newspaper or something like that, though, which means they can only count towards notability so much. The argument for that is similar to the one for the Cayman Compass above. However, we must be careful to check who actually published it - in this case I see that the UWIRE interview was uploaded to YouTube by a user named RyanDoylePKTV, which makes me doubt that it has actually been published by someone independent of Doyle.
The sources you classified as "semi-objective" I would class as primary sources - they are obviously involved with Doyle and we shouldn't expect them to be impartial in their views on him. I think we should treat them the same as we would his personal sites. So at my count of secondary sources, we have three: two specialist parkour sources and one local newspaper. This is not the best evidence of notability, but I think that this, plus the other mentions in Google News, plus the fact that he won at least one major parkour competition would be enough to see the article kept were it nominated for deletion. Still, it doesn't look like enough to write a good-length article to me, so as I see it the article will have to be made shorter. You don't have to take my word for all of this though - that is what we have the reliable sources noticeboard for. Let me know what your thoughts are after reading this. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 20:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
I've pared down the article quite drastically - hopefully it obeys the policies and guidelines somewhat better now. If anyone has any questions about why I did what I did, feel free to ask. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 14:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
The Ultimate Parkour & Freerunning Book says Manchester. ESPN says Liverpool. Maybe he was born in one place but now lives in another? not sure but wanted to mention it. Cptnono ( talk) 21:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Recently there has been disagreement at this article about whether Doyle should be called a "parkour practioner", a "freerunner", or both. This has led to this edit being reverted four times, which amounts to edit warring, in my opinion. Faeress has outlined their position at User talk:Feraess. Faeress's argument is that mainstream sources such as this New York Times article are not reliable for calling Doyle a parkour practitioner, because they are misconstruing the nature of parkour. However, I would argue that the relative obscurity of the origins of parkour, coupled with the attention by mainstream sources like the NYT, has changed the definition of parkour itself.
I think that we should base our articles on what mainstream sources like the NYT define parkour as, rather than whatever the original definition might have been. Ignoring the majority of mainstream sources in this way seems to me to constitute original research, which is forbidden on Wikipedia. I would be open to a compromise solution, though - perhaps we can call Doyle a parkour practitioner, but say that what he does may not fit with the definition of parkour as it was originally intended? Let me know your thoughts on this. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 09:18, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
In order to include the statement "Ryan is a freerunner and Parkour practitioner" you have to provide evidence that he is a freerunner and you also have to provide evidence that he is a Parkour practitioner. If Parkour and Freerunning are the same thing then we don't need to use both names. One will suffice. However the statement in question treats them as two separate things, so to support it you need reliable sources for each. The fact is, there is lots of evidence to support the freerunner part and no evidence to support the Parkour part.
All of the sources describe Ryan as a freerunner. Even the Red Bull website which lists Ryan as a Parkour Ambassador describes him as a freerunner rather than a Parkour practitioner. There is only one source which contains any kind of statement about whether or not he practises Parkour, and that is the Daily Trojan article in which Ryan states that he is 'a freerunner who practises parkour', directly after the article states that he does not like to distinguish between the two. All other sources contain the same qualification. Even if you consider sources which only imply that Ryan practises Parkour rather than make a statement, the only sources that exist are those which also claim that Parkour and Freerunning are the same thing. There is no source which states that Ryan practises two separate things called Freerunning and Parkour.
Even though the sources are unreliable in their labelling, they are consistent in their descriptions of what he does. In every source, Ryan is described as someone who does acrobatics, flips and tricks, and uses movement as a form of expression. We know what he does, we just need to work out what label to use.
Stating that the definition of Parkour has changed seems to me to be original research. I don't know of any reliable sources which gives this view, and quite honestly I don't see how an article in the New York Times has any bearing on how the discipline is defined. Parkour is clearly defined by its creator and its practitioners, and the definition of Parkour seems to be a subject on which they have the final say, not the New York Times. There's no distinction between 'original Parkour' and 'modern Parkour'. Parkour hasn't changed. The situation is the same as it always has been. There are people who practise Parkour, there are people who do other things, and there are people who can't tell the difference.
Ignoring a large number of sources is not original research when those sources are unreliable. Parkour is a very popular subject with the media, but most importantly it's a new subject and a lot of stuff gets published without much fact-checking. See WP:CEE. It's harder to do a good job on fact-checking when you don't have access to anyone who knows the facts. As I said in our discussion on my talk page, given that most new practitioners based their understanding on poorly-checked media reports, you now have media organisations producing poorly-checked reports on practitoners whose own facts are poorly-checked. Consequently, many media organisations that would normally be considered reliable are unreliable on the subject of Parkour. The amount of nonsense written about Parkour is huge.
If a source gets basic facts about a subject wrong then we cannot consider it as a reliable source on that subject. Specifically, on the subject of whether or not Ryan practises Parkour, if a source gets basic facts about Parkour incorrect then it is not a reliable source. Also, Ryan himself is not a reliable source. He gives inconsistent definitions of what constitutes Parkour, none of which are entirely accurate.
If you think that Parkour absolutely has to be mentioned in this article, then it should say something accurate like, "Ryan is sometimes labeled as a Parkour practitioner by those who don't distinguish between Parkour, Freerunning and acrobatics [1]." It's not notable enough for the first sentence though.
We should leave a discussion of what constitutes Parkour to the Parkour article, where as a result of a lot of recent tidying and correction it's now clearly defined. Incidentally, it should have a capital P since it is the name of a specific discipline rather than just an activity. Feraess ( talk) 12:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
(BTW, I merged my section on this subject into yours since we posted concurrently) Feraess ( talk) 13:13, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
For reference there are some major holes in the article, the fact that Ryan runs a well-established academy and entertainment production company. It should especially be expanded to include his prominence as an educator, which there's support for, but I'm afraid not enough to insert this without argument sans milking all available sources. I think in general that an academy/school of substance is more notable than an individual, perhaps not in this case, but the following should at least be heavily observed for insertion here or new articles. Maybe a sentence or two here would at least suffice. I'm too fatigued haggling all these infinitesimal wordings to spare the time to do this, but they should be on a to-do list for this page in any case:
I'm increasingly of the opinion that Airborn Academy should have its own article, I just don't know if there are references to support it yet. In 2013 Art of Motion interview, Ryan called it the biggest indoor PK/FR training center in the UK. Squish7 ( talk) 00:44, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Ryan didn't compete in the 2013 AOM but was interviewed for several minutes, starting about 42:50. It was a prominent interview but due to some mic glitch it was next to inaudible; the video was also skipping here and there. I amplified it and did my best to transcribe it so there's at least one copy somewhere for permanent reference. While Ryan was recovering from an operation (treatment of his 2007 leg injury), it's not completely clear whether he would have competed if he'd been able to, as the video says it only took the top 6 contenders from last year, while he was 8th, though he does state he was hoping to compete.