This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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per WP:BLPCAT, I'm not sure that this would really be public self identification with Catholicism, she sounds more like an ex (or lapsed) catholic. Valenciano ( talk) 15:28, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
There seems to be some non- NPOV de-categorisation mischief-making going on (and a clumsy attempt at times too, if I may say so!), but anyway, isn't the categorisation of Dudley Edwards as "Irish" slightly misleading, when she has been living in England (rather than Ireland) for many years, if not decades, and in all likelihood probably also has British citizenship and a British second passport? Her personal site for example uses the " .co.uk", rather than the " .ie", domain. -- KC9TV 03:47, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Murry, if you're using 'Ireland' to refer to the Republic, perhaps you ought to specify this or even pipe it. When I see an unlinked reference to 'Ireland', I immediately think of the island and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. People will then wonder why you're using a mix of geographical and political terms. Gob Lofa ( talk) 11:24, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes Goba Lof? As per IMOS as it is at the moment. Murry1975 ( talk) 19:32, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
The article consists of 27 lines. Of those, 5 lines, almost 20 per cent, are devoted to a contentious quote from the elderly Catholic nationalist and former senator John A. Murphy, b.1927 (who in 2015 denounced gay marriage as 'grotesque nonsense'), and this lengthy and largely irrelevant quote explains how Protestants are evil and Catholics are good. Bit of a problem there. Khamba Tendal ( talk) 19:07, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Describing Dudley Edwards as 'an Irish Unionist' in the lead sentence is misleading, and mentioning her political allegiance in the lead section is overweight. I am discussing ComradeKublai's partial revert of my edit:
I did not remove the cited material completely, I only removed two of the three mentions of it. ComradeKublai may not have noticed that we also mention it in the 'Unionism and anti-Irish republicanism' section, citing the same source.
The Manual of Style indicates that the lead sentence of a biographical article should include Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable ( MOS:LEADBIO). This is usually implemented by giving the subject's nationality, and in an Irish context this might be extended to the cultural group or community. There are of course many shades of meaning, but my immediate interpretation of 'Irish Unionist' in the lead sentence was that she is a member of the Ulster loyalist community. She is not. Even where the words can be parsed to give an accurate meaning, we should aim for clarity and avoid the risk for misunderstanding.
In the cited source Dudley Edwards is discussing her political opinions:
My second issue is whether we should mention her Unionism in the lead section. MOS:LEADBIO says "The lead section should summarise the life and works of the person with due weight". Dudley Edwards is not a politician, and her political views are not relevant to her notability. MOS:CONTEXTBIO does not mention political allegiance, but the examples it gives suggest that we should not normally include this in the lead section. We should only mention her politics in the body of the article. Verbcatcher ( talk) 16:55, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm not trying to revive an old discussion here but whether or not she should be described as a 'Unionist', she is not a 'Unionist historian'. I'd like to put a comma between 'Unionist' and 'historian' but am not sufficiently skilled to do this without messing with the formatting. 95.44.48.119 ( talk) 14:36, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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per WP:BLPCAT, I'm not sure that this would really be public self identification with Catholicism, she sounds more like an ex (or lapsed) catholic. Valenciano ( talk) 15:28, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
There seems to be some non- NPOV de-categorisation mischief-making going on (and a clumsy attempt at times too, if I may say so!), but anyway, isn't the categorisation of Dudley Edwards as "Irish" slightly misleading, when she has been living in England (rather than Ireland) for many years, if not decades, and in all likelihood probably also has British citizenship and a British second passport? Her personal site for example uses the " .co.uk", rather than the " .ie", domain. -- KC9TV 03:47, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Murry, if you're using 'Ireland' to refer to the Republic, perhaps you ought to specify this or even pipe it. When I see an unlinked reference to 'Ireland', I immediately think of the island and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. People will then wonder why you're using a mix of geographical and political terms. Gob Lofa ( talk) 11:24, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes Goba Lof? As per IMOS as it is at the moment. Murry1975 ( talk) 19:32, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
The article consists of 27 lines. Of those, 5 lines, almost 20 per cent, are devoted to a contentious quote from the elderly Catholic nationalist and former senator John A. Murphy, b.1927 (who in 2015 denounced gay marriage as 'grotesque nonsense'), and this lengthy and largely irrelevant quote explains how Protestants are evil and Catholics are good. Bit of a problem there. Khamba Tendal ( talk) 19:07, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Describing Dudley Edwards as 'an Irish Unionist' in the lead sentence is misleading, and mentioning her political allegiance in the lead section is overweight. I am discussing ComradeKublai's partial revert of my edit:
I did not remove the cited material completely, I only removed two of the three mentions of it. ComradeKublai may not have noticed that we also mention it in the 'Unionism and anti-Irish republicanism' section, citing the same source.
The Manual of Style indicates that the lead sentence of a biographical article should include Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable ( MOS:LEADBIO). This is usually implemented by giving the subject's nationality, and in an Irish context this might be extended to the cultural group or community. There are of course many shades of meaning, but my immediate interpretation of 'Irish Unionist' in the lead sentence was that she is a member of the Ulster loyalist community. She is not. Even where the words can be parsed to give an accurate meaning, we should aim for clarity and avoid the risk for misunderstanding.
In the cited source Dudley Edwards is discussing her political opinions:
My second issue is whether we should mention her Unionism in the lead section. MOS:LEADBIO says "The lead section should summarise the life and works of the person with due weight". Dudley Edwards is not a politician, and her political views are not relevant to her notability. MOS:CONTEXTBIO does not mention political allegiance, but the examples it gives suggest that we should not normally include this in the lead section. We should only mention her politics in the body of the article. Verbcatcher ( talk) 16:55, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm not trying to revive an old discussion here but whether or not she should be described as a 'Unionist', she is not a 'Unionist historian'. I'd like to put a comma between 'Unionist' and 'historian' but am not sufficiently skilled to do this without messing with the formatting. 95.44.48.119 ( talk) 14:36, 5 July 2023 (UTC)