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By the project scale, I would rate importance as "high", as Rusyns would qualfy as an "ethnic group" Pustelnik 20:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Doesnt the article I now post eliminate a need for this page? Who is wikipedia to debate the ethnicity of the Rusyns when Ukraine now recognizes them as an ethnic minority? [2]
OK with me. I have inserted ratings. I'm keeping this section open in case something thinks they deserve a higher or lower rating. Why is Ukraine's recognition of the Rusyns as an ethnic group relevant or important? Pustelnik 19:13, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I would be very interested in an article about any transient independent state. I have likened this to Carpathian Ruthenia, which implies a legally autonomous area in the post World War I era, with little detail. Can someone clarify or expand this? Pustelnik 13:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree. They're closer related to cucumbers.-- Bandurist ( talk) 17:54, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Are we witnessing ethnicities being created here? I think we are but I'm not sure where... My ancestors referred to themselves as Rusyn (or Ruthenian, same thing, germanic version). They were not separate from the people that call themselves Ukrainians today. I think this splitting of words is completely based on politics. I think the Ukrainians realize that they share a history with the russians but are recoiling from the communist russia of the previous century. I think maybe those who refer to themselves as 'rusyn' or 'ruthenian' these days are recoiling from the nationalistic attitudes of Ukraine. Maybe the ruthenians are filled with a sense of pan-slavism. They should be careful of that. They should remember that this pan-slavism idea was :exploited by the Russians to give a purpose to invading the nations that surround them. They should also remember that they (the rusyns) :and the Ukrainians share the name Rusyn historically, while the Russians were Muscovites. To me Rusyn, Ruthenian and Ukrainian are all part of the same body. I'm guessing that this wikipedia article was written by Magcosi. I've read that he has written many books on the subject. In fact, I'm under the impression that he invented to idea of Rusyn's being a separate people. -Joe Yakimicki
The truth is Rusyns are Ukrainians, and Ukrainians are Rusyns, "russians" are muscovians (moskali), the only reason Ukrainians call themselves Ukrainians is because muscovians stole the 'Rus' name because of how famous Kyivan Rus was at the time, muscovians wanted to become more famous. Ukrainians wanted to show they are not muscovians, people who call themselves Rusyns probably didn't know of muscovians stealing the name, thus they didn't see a reason to change their name to Ukrainians. So if we wanted to be really correct we would call Ukrainians/Rusyns Russians or Rusyns, and 'russians' muscovians! Nroscha 17:11, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
As a side commnent, when speaking of the people in Transcarpathia in his book on Ukrainian history Magosci consistantly refers to its people as "Rusyns/Ukrainians." Faustian 14:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Checking in nearly 10 years after my previous comment-- I just wanted to update this to say that 10 more years of interest and research have really only led me to this: Perhaps some geographic and temporal locations had a stronger sense of demarcation between Rusyn, Ruthenian, Ukrainian, etc. I think the lines of demarcation are very fuzzy in many locations and periods of time. Times of conflict often seem to lead to seeing black and white in a place where that is very gray. (Joe Yakimicki, April 2017) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jyakimic ( talk • contribs) 19:37, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Nroscha. Rusyns are people of the Rus or Ruthenia (Latinized version), but such an entity fell into oblivion since the XIII century. The primary decedant of that state is Ukraine. Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 21:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
When my Grandmother came to the US in the early 1900's she refered to herself as a Ruthenian. When I found her entry in a ships log through Ellis Island she is listed as Ruthenian and the term Russian was crossed out. Just my two cents. ---Steve
I'm an American, but I had Rusyn ancestors. Some were imprisoned at Talerhof, some formed the Lemko-Rusyn Republic, and others were deported in the Vistula operation. One even wrote a Rusyn Primer and reader in the 1930's, which was later suppressed by the Polish government. For the most part, they did not consider themselves to be Ukrainians, but Lemkos. My grandmother's sister immigrated to Canada, and did consider herself to be Ukrainian. Of course, the Canadian government considered her ethnic group to be "Austrians", and interned them in WW I. I would consider ethnicity to be self-defined. I resent someone insisting that my ancestors were Ukrainians, as they showed by their actions that they did not consider themslves to be Ukrainians. Pustelnik 18:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I was born in the US. My grandmother (Anna Hunchar Potocnak) always referred to herself as Ruthenian (Rusyn) Ukrainian, and Orthodox Catholic. She was quite adamant on her self-identification, and even stated she spoke both Ukrainian and Ruthenian (along with a few other languages). I do not think Rusyns are a subgroup that does not deserve an entry - quite the opposite. If she felt that adamant about her identification, obviously it meant quite a lot to those who fled the area to the US "diaspora". Winterlongone 21:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
This article seemed to have been cut and pasted and re-editted to the extent that it did not make sense as a whole. I added a slew of links to connect it with other articles as well as enforced the term "Rusyns" throughout the article in order to not confuse the reader. I also added a section for references, should anyone have the time to peruse the major writings and expand this article. As for bias, I attempted to be neutral and hope that I presented as many viewpoints as possible.-- tufkaa 16:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC) p.s.:Someone please correct my horrible translation of the Polish-language reference.-- tufkaa 16:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm wondering what you find objectionable about the above phrase. Also, given that most of historical Ruthenians/Rusyns (in Galicia, including the vast majority of Zakarpatia) consider themselves Ukrainian today, the Ukrainian focus seems appropriate. On a personal note, a know many recent immigrants from Zakarpatia (Prykarpatia) in the USA, none of whom considers themsevles Rusyn despite the different dialect (an example that sticks in my mind is the word for socks - "shtrympfy" - rather than "skarpetky". Faustian 22:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I find it sad and fascinating at the same time that some in Ukraine (neither Faustian nor Tufkaa are among them but I don't want to call names of some editors) like to talk about bads of the SU in relationtion with an effective denial of Ukrainian identity (or keeping it exclusively to folklore stuff) but as the same time, following the Ukrainian attainment of independence, do the same to Rusyns, calling them "Ukrainians". Remember the " Romanians who forgot their native language" thingy? I remember very well like some of our Verkhovna Rada deputies (I think it was the Plushch' time) screamed inside the parliament about the dangers of "Political Ruthenianism" (Політичний русинізм) in the '90s. A similar interview of Mykhailo Tyvodar I linked to the article a while ago to provide the diversity of opinions also speaks along those lines. To those who think that Rusyns are just Ukrainians, I suggest to go to any Rusyn web-sites and, don't read the Propaganda, but just look at the articles. This one for instance? Is this Ukrainian language? I remember a long discussion with User:PANONIAN and others where we tried to figure what "Перед кунківском церквю капітан ПВ одберат мельдунок" is supposed to mean.
So, let's separate two issues. Actually three issues. The first one is that in the Austrian Empire what we now call "Ukrainians" were all called "Ruthenians" (Russinen?) and given some reasonable freedom compared to their Ukrainian brethren of, say, Volhynia, of the RU empire, in order to prevent any splitting of the people's loyalty towards the more Russia-leaning parts of Ukraine as well as to Ukraine itself. Some of those people were, perhaps, simply Ukrainians in modern sense. Some where Rusyn. That's the first point. The second point is that the issue exists along with people. Due to its unfortunate politization, statistical data has to be treated with care but there is a significant amount of research (including but not limited to Magocsi) on the subject. And the third connected issue is that this politicization is harmful and editors should not scrutinize others exclusively to try to deduce some hidden political agenda.
Fazil Iskander wrote in his book that "Our science is so politicized that people somehow forget that the truth is interesting in its own right". ( У нас наука настолько политизирована, что люди как-то забывают, что истина и сама по себе интересна) in connection with a dispute about the authorship of the "Great Abkhazian Wall". A useful reread for some (not the editors above) who are perpetually seeking a hidden agenda in every statement anyone makes at Wikipedia. -- Irpen 15:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the interesting commentary. The linked article [ [3] was a fascinating read. Irpen, have you ever heard a "pure" Galician dialect? (nowadays it is more common among grandparents in the diaspora than in Ukraine, at least according to my visits there) I am no professional linguist, but to me the Lemko passage seems to be a combination of Galician and Russian. Perhaps that reflects a similarity with Belorusyn of which I am unfamiliar, or even an insertion of Russian words by the Russophile coders of the Rusyn language, comparable to the Church Slavonic insertions into the literary Russian language when it was first codified. The use of the passive tense (?) ся or ce comparable to Spanish se is typical of Galicia as well. I found lists of some Galician words (which didn't include the Galician spatzeruvaty for huliaty or the Austrian-derived greeting servus): [4] [5]. But unfortunately I haven't been able to get an entire passage, as a comparison to the Lemko passage would have been interesting. Perhaps they would be equally far apart from literary Ukrainian language based on the Poltava (central/eastern Ukraine) dialect. All of which point to the numerous potential possibilities inherent in national identitification and language. It is a fascinating subject, and perhaps if I have time I will try to devote an article to it - it would take a couple of hours, though, so who knows when that will happen.
As for Ukrainian sensitivity to the Rusyn issue, I think it stems from several sources. Firstly, the issues and conflict are quite familar in the nationalistic West. There, where the local dialect is similar to Rusyn, the same conflict between Ukrainophiles and Rusynophiles and Russophiles also played out, in the 19th century. The victor in Galicia is quite clear. To a Galician, a Rusynophile from America or across the Slovak border may seem like an unpleasant throwback to an earlier heretofore resolved conflict.
Secondly, the Rusynophile orientation was explicitly utilised by Hungarian and Polish authorites in their respective lands to try to seperate their subject peoples' from the greater Ukrainian nation. In the case of the Poles, Austrian neutrality prevented the Poles from fully using their resources and the Russinophile orientation withered in Galicia, although the Poles tried to revive it after 1920 by forcing Galician Ukrainians to refer to themselves as Rusyns in official documents. By then it was too late, the Ukrainian identity had been set, and the result was only resentment for "Rusynism." In the lands under Hungary (Zakarpatia), in contrast, before 1914 Rusynism received the explicit support of the state and therefore survived, albeit even with the state support it was no more than equal to the Ukrainophile orientation there (according to Magosci's book on Ukrainian history). All of these events have led many Ukrainians to view Rusynism as a sort of foreign (Polish, Hungarian, or Russian)intrigue and its proponents as some sort of collaborators. The irony here is obvious, as the same accusations have been levelled against Ukrainanism itself by some Russians.
Thirdly, the similarities between Rusyn and other western Ukrainian cultures and language are so great that it is frankly difficult for (particularly Western) Ukrainians to view Rusyns as a different people. It would be analogous, perhaps, to a situation in which some Alabamans insisted that Alabama was a seperate nation with its own language, codified the language of Faulkner (which, obviously, is quite different from standard English), while Mississipians remained "patriotic Americans" and merged their speech with that of standard American English.
My own personal opinion is that national identity depends on the people's self-identification. If most Rusyns come to feel themselves as a separate nation, than for whatever reason they arrive at this conclusuion it is their right to do so. But this issue should be independent from one of ethnicity or linguistic categorization. And it is still far from settled. As I mentioned earlier, Rusyns may become like Austrians in relation to Germans, a seperate nation. Or their national orientation may turn out to have been a fashion, like the supposed unique ethnicity of Polish nobles ( Sarmatism) or the Bavarian indepenence movement [6]. Faustian 19:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
And a Lviv dictionary: [7]. Faustian 20:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Now "Pannonian Rusyns" are a different ethnicity than "Rusyns" because they live in a different location and speak a different language. Well then I guess "German Americans" are a separate ethnicity from "Germans". See Pannonian Rusyn. 72.144.68.226 23:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
'even more new ethnicities' was a bad title Idiszero 01:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I wonder why the "Famous Rusyns" section was removed? -- ISasha 19:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
It is a shame, considering the notable personalities that are identified with the Rusyn heritage: Andy Warhol, Peter Wilhousky, Tom Ridge, Michael Strank et al. ( 192.77.143.154 14:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)) ~~
Please be aware that this page contains some very biassed opinions by the members of Ukrainian community. Ukrainian nationalists are very well known for denying Rusyns being a separate ethnicity. In the history of this page you can see a number of edits which were clearly caused by one's personal subjective views. One good example would be a number of Rusyns population these days. 54000 is a ridiculous number which does not represent the reality in any way.
Certainly, it's a right of every individual to be able to say what they want but I would take it with a grain of salt when Chinese nationalists talk about Tibetans or when Russian nationalists talk about Ukrainians. Or when Ukrainian nationalists talk about Rusyns.
Nationalism is a European concept superimposed on us. We hate it. We are composed of over 400 cultural-lingual groups in which Tibetian is a term used by British to create a lie that there was a Tibetian Kingdom. There are over 200 Living Buddhas in Four separate sects who are independent, of whom Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama are the leaders of the Yellow Sect, and there are Red Sect, Black Sect and Flower Sect. Keep your ignorance to your own, so not use us to againt the Han brothers.
(Fixing the formatting as the old one is nigh impossible to read)
Panchelan
The figure of 54,000 or so is from official census data. Sorry, but only about 10,000 people in Ukraine actually identified themselves as Rusyns on the last Ukrainian census. In modern Ukraine most Rusyns consider themselves of Ukrainian nationality. Faustian 16:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Some Rusyns don't even subscribe to the idea of a separate Rusyn nation, and would bristle at the idea of being called Ukrainian. I come from a Rusyn family that identifies heavily with being Russian, although their language and culture is decidedly more Ukrainian than Russian. I believe the term for people like me is "Russophile" and I know of many Rusyns who are similarly aligned.
to add
Ruthenians and Rusyns are name for nowadays Ukrainians. All my father’s family are Lemko Rusyns. Still they are Ukrainians. My mother's family from Bucovyna are Rusyns is well, and they are Ukrainians. Will give you an example of Ruthenians from Bukovyna. I want to show that Ruthenian or Rusyns is the name for Ukrainians on the example of postcards from time of Austro-Hungarian Empire from Bucovyna:
http://www.ljplus.ru/img3/a/r/aritmija/image032.jpg
http://pics.livejournal.com/igorsova/pic/00001696
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3605/ukrainiansis2.jpg
And here some fragments from a book "Русини а Москалі", written by Bucovinian Rusyns (Ukrainians) in Rutheian language (Ukrainian), dated 1911, from Chernivtsi where strongly emphasised that Rusyns are not Moscovites (Russians):
http://choana.livejournal.com/114557.html#cutid1
My Greatgrandparents were Rusyn immigrants from WESTERN SLOVAKIA (NOT UKRAINE). I consider myself of Rusyn decent, not Slovakian and certainly not Ukrainian. My Greatgrandmother would proudly proclaim she was Rusyn, not Russian. I find it very disappointing to:
1.) Find a Wikipedia Article that is under a series on Ukraine instead of on its' own proud Rusyn heritage.
2.) That this is obviously a site where Ukrainians are claiming that anyone who identifies themselves as Rusyn is actually a misguided Ukrainian. That is very insulting- it is like telling Ukrainians they are misguided Russians.
All this Ukrainian-identity should be kept to a brief statement and allow Rusyns to explain themselves. If you want to say you are Ukrainian and not Rusyn, then you should go to a "proud-to-be-Ukrainian site" instead. KURTAK 16 January 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.115.248.223 ( talk) 20:23, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn’t this be at Rusyn people? — Wiki Wikardo 23:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Podkarpatskije Rusiny is considered the Rusyn "national anthem", Ja Rusyn byl jesm' i budu - should it have a comma: Ja Rusyn byl, jesm' i budu? (meaning would be I was Rusyn, [I] am and will be)-- Constanz - Talk 12:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Adding up numbers by yourself is original research, especially when you do it from multiple sources. Conqueror100, please review these policies before reverting again. Khoi khoi 07:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
about US census here are some numbers: http://www.everyculture com/North-America/European-Americans-Bibliography.html In 1980 about 600,000 Americans were of Carpatho-Rusyn ancestry, although only 8,485 claimed such ancestry in the 1980 census. This is in part because many identify themselves as Ukrainians or Russians and because the U.S. census no longer considers the Carpatho-Rusyns as a distinct group. Magocsi, Paul R. (1984). Our People: Carpatho-Rusyns and Their Descendants in North America. Toronto: Multicultural History Society of Ontario.
Carpatho Rusyn 3,997 http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=D&-ds_name=D&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false&-mt_name=ACS_2002_EST_G2000_PCT026
I am 100% Rusyn. My grandparents were from Galicia (now in Poland), Northeast Slovakia and Ukraine (all in the Carpathian mountains). They identified themselves as Ruthenians when they came to the U.S. They spoke the Rusyn language (different but similar dialects), went to Greek Catholic and Orthodox churches (Byzantine), depending on what region they were from, followed Rusyn customs, etc. I love our old customs. When I went to Europe, I found that in each area they had their own Rusyn schools, beautiful wooden churches - everything was distinctly Rusyn. I have read that Ukraine is now recognizing the Rusyns as a separate and distinct people. Now maybe the Rusyns there will not be afraid to identify themselves as Rusyns and you will see the numbers go up. When I visited my family there, they were afraid to say they were Rusyn and were so happy that I was an American and proud to be a Rusyn. We had an interesting discussion about this issue. Creating ethnicities? I don't think so. I am a Rusyn, my parents were Rusyn, my grandparents were Rusyn, etc. ( RusynA 14:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC))
This debate is purely semantical. There is no certain way to tell the dialect from the language as well as to tell a national subgroup from a separate nation. And, yes, these issues are affected by politics as well. We should just describe the situation without attaching any labels ourselves. -- Irpen 17:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
A reasonable conclusion, as usual. Faustian 17:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Just because certain countries want to try and snuff out ethnic minorities doesn't mean the people themselves don't identify as a separate culture. language content has been discussed, but really, just the number of websites and ORGANIZED SOCIETIES pertaining to the Rusyn people indicates that a significant amount of Rusyns identify themselves as Rusyn, NOT Ukranian, Slovak, Polish, Serbian, etc. Observe these links. [8] [9] [10] [11] lists other scholarly organizations identifying with the Rusyn people. [12] [13] I challenge any Ukranian to see if this language is their own.
Interesting
- Faustian 04:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Ruthenians and Rusyns are name for nowadays Ukrainians. All my father’s family are Lemko Rusyns. Still they are Ukrainians. My mother's family from Bucovyna are Rusyns is well, and they are Ukrainians. Will give you an example of Ruthenians from Bukovyna. I want to show that Ruthenian or Rusyns is the name for Ukrainians on the example of postcards from time of Austro-Hungarian Empire from Bucovyna:
http://www.ljplus.ru/img3/a/r/aritmija/image032.jpg
http://pics.livejournal.com/igorsova/pic/00001696
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3605/ukrainiansis2.jpg
And here some fragments from a book "Русини а Москалі", written by Bucovinian Rusyns (Ukrainians) in Rutheian language (Ukrainian), dated 1911, from Chernivtsi where strongly emphasised that Rusyns are not Moscovites (Russians):
http://choana.livejournal.com/114557.html#cutid1
The problem is very simple - Rusyns are not Ukrainians but Ukrainians are Rusyns. "Ukrainian" is just a weird name designed for them that's why Slovak Rusyns can't adopt it... 91.127.47.237 17:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Ukrainians and Rusyns are the same nation. Just like Greeks and Ellinicos, Georgians and Sakartvelo, Armenians and Hayer.
seven
Ladies and Gentelmen! I would like to remind you, that the mission of Wikipedia is descriptive rather than prescriptive. This means that we are here not to decide whether Rusyns are a separate ethnos or a subethnos of Ukrainians. We have just to describe facts: some number of people in Slovac Republic, Poland and Ukraine identify themselves as Rusyn and do not consider themselves Ukrainian. This is just a plain fact.
On the other hand there is no facts supporting the claim that nearly the whole population of Transkarpattia Oblast are Rusyns. As well as there is no fact indicating that any significant number of Hutsuls and Boikos identify themselves as Rusyns. Concerning Lemkos, the situation is different. A significant part of them claim distinct from Ukrainian (Rusyn or a separate Lemko) ethnicity. But we should not forget the fact that a significant number of Lemkos do identify themselves as Ukrainians.
Let us just describe these facts in Wikipedia. Our own views on the subject can be discussed at internet forums rather than at Wikipedia. Regards, -- AndriyK 08:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
It exists 60,000 people, who claim that they are Rusyns. These are numbers from national official bureaus for statistics:
So I came to the conclusion that 24,201+15,626+10,100+2,337+5,800+1,098+1,106=60,268. It is standard counting of numbers and it does not violate WP:SYN. Conqueror100 16:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Faustian 16:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no data concerning Ukraine. No Rusyns are mentioned here ( http://ukrcensus.gov.ua/results/general/nationality/zakarpatia/.) Your calculations are wrong-- 133.41.84.172 10:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
When you guys are done with revert warring and have the article unprotected, please add this ref to an article. In the meanwhile, please read it.
It is easy to google the credentials of this respected scholar. BTW, he is the author of the current Britannica's article on Ukraine. Happy edits. -- Irpen 17:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I chose the images of the four most recognisable Rusyns (and who have free images, so the image wont be removed due to license problems) and compiled an image for the article. I think it came out pretty good so... enjoy :-) (it's about time the article has it's image). M.V.E.i. 22:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The almost part of Lemkos call themself Rusyns, but almost Hutsuls and Boikos call themself Ukrainians. First Ukrainians immigrants came to Argentina in 1897. They were from southwestern Ukraine (Boikivhchyna, Trancarpathia, Hutsulshchyna, Bukovyna, Podillia and Besarabia). The immigrants from Boikivschyna, Transcarpathia and Hutsulshchyna called themself Ukrainians. My grandparents were Boikos´and Hutsuls´sons and they called themself Ukrainians. These immigrants were proud be Ukrainians. I´m proud too be descendent of Ukrainian Hutsuls and Boikos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.55.77.228 ( talk) 03:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have a map or can make a map of the location in Europe where most Rusyns live?-- Boguslav M 23:49, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Can someone knowledgeable about Rusyn cuisine help with a question? Is there a dish called levish or leviš (which is dumplings and cheese), possibly traditional around the area of Strážske? If you have information about it, can you please post at Talk:Slovak cuisine? Thank you in advance for your help. Badagnani ( talk) 03:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi, people who added "1,710,000" figure as population in Ukraine - please explain where it is from. -- windyhead ( talk) 19:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Joensuu 77 ( talk) 22:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Answer: Please, read the article you comment properly through from the beginning to the end. I speak about ancestral Rusyns, and represent both the sources and calculation procedure I have used. In the same way, the size of ethnic minorities sometimes has to be estimated e.g. in France, where all the ethnic groups are legally unrecognized by the state. The Romance minorities of France are an analogy with the status of Slavonic Rusyns in Ukraine. Actually, the way of estimation I have used is relatively moderate, because the Rusyns probably living in Ukraine, outside their rodina, are not included. This kind of people surely exist. "joensuu_77"
As far as we know, the immense majority of the population of Zakarpattia oblast (close to one million) in Ukraine defines themselves as Ukrainians, not Rusyns.
In many old Kingdom of Hungary ethnographic maps, Rusyns/Ruthenians and Ukrainians are in fact counted as one ethnic group.
So... what’s behind the current supposed “surge” in Rusyn nationalism in Ukraine? Well, the Russian state-controlled Russia Today can give you some clues. More details, in this article from The Jamestown Foundation.
I read that Father Sidor has been offering Russian passports to the Rusyns. ҃҃ ҃҃҃҃
There's more Hugarians in Zakarpattia than Rusyns. It's just an extremist (Sidor) handing out passports, trying to stir up trouble-- Lvivske ( talk) 18:07, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, we do witness here in English Wikipedia the creation of Rusys which are generally known as Ruthenians elsewhere in Europe. This area was ruled by the Hungarian Kings since Arpad and later since 1867 by Hapsburg Monarchs to 1918. Not any connection to Imperial Russia at all. Inside Dual Monarchy this part belonged to Hungary, not Austrian adminstration, as Austrian (Polish) Galicia and Lodomeria. After The Peace Treaty of Trianon on June 4, 1920 to 1939 Ruthenia belonged to Republic of Czechoslovakia and Hungarians occupied this former Czechoslovakian Province in two parts, the southern part including Munkacs and Ungvar in November 1938 and the northern and the most eastern part on March 15, 1939. In October 1944 the Hungarian army retreated, by orders given by Hungarian Regent Miklos von Horthy, from Karpathians without any fight and the Red Army and the Soviets marched in Karpathian Ruthenia on October 15,1944. According to the Czechoslovakian offical statistic of 1931 the area of Podkarpatské Rusi was 12.617 km2. Total population was 725.000 inhabitants of which 62 % were Ukraineans (449.500), 15 % Hungarians (108.750) and 4.5 % (32.625) were Chechs and Slovaks. The rest of the population (134.125) were classified as others of their origin including Poles, Germans, Russians, and Roumanians in addition to Jews and Gipsy (Roma) people. All offical names were written at first in Latin letters, then followed in Kyrillic letters. Former Ungarian small town Körösmezö become Jasina and Kiraly-Haza become Korolevo. Raho become Rachov e.t.c. On May 8, 1944 the Exile Czechoslovakian Government in London had nominated Dr. Fr. Nemec to its legal representantive in Province of Podkarpatské Rusi but the Soviet authorities prevented his delegation of working in Town Hust (Hungarian Huzst). The Soviets collected some left wing activists or symphatiers from local population but some Ruthenian refugees where collected from all over Soviet Union, even from GULAG prison camps to Munkacévo (Munkacs) to form a "National Assembly" with 603 representantives. It was this "National Assembly" which voted to "Incorporate the Podkarpatské Rusi territory into Soviet Union" on November 25 / 26, 1944. The Czechoslovakian Government accepted this in meeting on June 29, 1945, just before the Postdam Conference to gain Stalin´s support against the Polish demands over Cesky Tesin (Teschen). But the old Provincial frontier was not enough for the Soviets. They wanted all railway line from Cop (Csap) through Uzhorod (Ungvar) to Polish border on Ung Pass, to be included into ceded area and the Czechoslovakian Government had to accept this demand. Thus, the border was changed to more western direction. This is the real history how the Zakarpitskaja Oblast inside Ukraijna SSR was created and Ruthenians turned to be Rusys, as it happened in 1945. The Austrian Bukowina with its capital Czernowitz did not belong to Upper Hungary, but direct to Austria. Czernowitz was offically renamed to Roumanian Cernauti. If someone shows an Ukraineans living in Bukowina as living in Podkarpatské Rusi, then it is time to study more of European history. If someone was living at Stanislau (Stanislawow), Kolomea (Kolomyja) or Delatyn, he / she was living in Austrian Galicia, not Podkarpatské Rusi. The border between Galicia and Bukowina run at Nepolokoutz. Luzan was in Northern Bukowina. Between Podkarpatské Rusi and Galicia the admistrative border between Austria and Hungary were at Woronienka at Jablonka Pass, and at Beskid Pass north of Munkacs. Ung Pass was adminstrationally in Slovakia then indide Ung Province in Kingdom of Hungary, later inside Slovakia in Czechoslovakia. Bukowina meant Land of Beechs. Before Austrians it was ruled by Ottoman Sultans from Constantinople. But from Kijev, never in known history before 1940. But it did not prevent the part of people to be Malo Russians e.g. Ukraineans. (Border landerers). As were the part of "Lembergerers" inside borders of Austria in Danube Dual Monarchy.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.122.217 ( talk) 12:46, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I have: Most Rusyns are Byzantine rite Catholics, who since the Union of Brest in 1596 and the Union of Uzhhorod in 1646 have been in communion with the Holy See. However, they have their own particular Church, the Ruthenian Catholic Church, and retain the Byzantine Rite liturgy in Old Slavonic and most of the outward forms of Byzantine or Eastern Christianity. You have: in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.
The Catholic church means Universl church. It consists of a number of different rites.Each rite has a number of differnt churches. Currently there are 7 rites. previously there were 14. The largest being the Roman or Latin rite.
The second largest is the Byzantine (or Greek, or Constatinian rite) which is the second largest in number of adherents and includes the Albenese church, Belarusian church, Bulgarian church, Greek church, Hungarian church,Mcedonian, Romanian, Russian, Rutenian, Slovak, and Ukrainian churches
The Alexandrian rite includes the Coptic and Ethiopic churches. The Armenian rite has the Armenian church. The Antiochean rite which includes the Maronite and Syrian churches.
The Chaldean rite and eastern rite churches also exist.
These churches are either in communion with Rome or part of the Catholic church, but are not in communion with the Roman Catholci church (which is a seperate rite.
Its a very minor difference and something many lay people often mistake, but it is a mistake none the less.
Many people automatically say Roman when talking about the Catholic church because it is the largest rite and because the seat of the Holy See is in Rome. The correction was made not because it sounds in a particular way but because it was technically wrong.҃҃҃҃ Bandurist ( talk) 03:52, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
As we know the populations of the Slavic world in particular in Eastern Slavic world is dropping considerably. Ukraine has one of the largest population drops (28%) by 2050 falling to 33.1 million from the current 46 million. The Bulgarian statistics are even more shocking falling at the rate of 38%.
Unfortunately Rusyn is not one of the groups that was not listed but could probably have a similar population drop between Polish and Ukrainisn in the high 20's to 30's.
With many Rusyns living outside of the ancestoral home the rate may be higher, however if Rusyns continue to be strictly pious they may not control their birth rate and the numbers may be lower. In any case we can expect about half the population of Rusyns by 2050, and almost total decimation by 2080 (0nly a guestimate). What are people's thoughts regard to the raqpid change in Rusyn demographics. Bandurist ( talk) 03:52, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
The article seems to cover all the relvent point of view, and all facts are referenced to appropriate sources. I am removing the nuetrality tag; if there's a problem we should discuss it here. Faustian ( talk) 14:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Now, quite frankly, I don't understand the need for any users out there to be reverting or deleting every single edit on this page, many of which were constructive and just basic cleaning up of the article. Any users who took issue with edits, post it up so we can talk about this and hammer this out.-- Львівське ( talk) 17:20, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Andy Warhol was a US citizen, born in Pittsburgh. His parents were of Rusyn ethnicity but I believe they were from Austria-Hungary. He might be considered a Rusyn American if a reliable source can be provided that he self-identified as such, but he's clearly not Rusyn. I removed him from the montage and my edit was reverted, thus I bring up the issue here. -- Nuujinn ( talk) 00:28, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Andy's biographies emphasize his ethnic background we must not deny his descent. 1 [17] Fakirbakir ( talk) 01:41, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
I suggest this article be changed to Carpatho-Rusyn, since that's what it primarily is about. The Pannonian-Rusyn article is separate, and I think the Ruthenian article should act as an index for all things Rusyn/Ruthenian to both avoid confusion and clarify the distinction between modern Rusyns and the use of 'Rusyn' before it split into Ukrainian/White Rusyn-- Львівське ( talk) 04:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Lemkos would disagree. Many Lemkos consider themslves to be Rusyn, but the Lemko Republic was not allowed to join Carpathian Ruthenia. Pustelnik ( talk) 00:32, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move but creating a narrower topic at Carpatho-Rusyns is permissable. Graeme Bartlett ( talk) 05:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC) Graeme Bartlett ( talk) 05:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Rusyns →
Carpatho-Rusyns — Move the article to more accurately reflect the subject matter. Current article is ambiguous and covers Ruthenes, Pannonian Rusyns, American diaspora....its just too indirect. Catch-all material should be covered in the Ruthenians article, "Rusyns" should be a disambig page.--
Львівське (
talk)
22:37, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Oppose You aren't making one suggestion, you are making two. You are suggesting (1) that the article be moved to Carpatho-Rusyn becasue that is what it should be about and (2) that it is currently too broad because it not only covers Carpatho-Rusyns but also covers Pannonian Rusyns and the American diaspora. You cannot argue that this article should not exist because another article with another name and on a differently focused topic should exist. Rather, maintain Ruthenians as the very broad article that it is, maintain this as an article dealing with Rusyns proper, and, if the material warrants it, then split out from this one a separate article for only Carpatho Rusyns. μηδείς ( talk) 05:43, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Current dispute as to whether to include Lemkos in Poland as part of the general population of Carpatho-Rusyns here. The Polish census lists Rusyns and Lemkos as separate ethnic groups, to which I contest, that to combine them into a single entity constitutes original research. According to Magocsi, Rusyns in Subcarpathia self-identify as Ukrainians today (as with the rest of Ruthenians who now identify as Ukrainian) but in Poland, Rusyns changed their identity to Lemkos.
by the twentieth century, in particular its second half, the historic names Rusyn/Rusniak were replaced by others, such as Ukrainian in Soviet Transcarpathia and the Presov Region of Slovakia, or Lemko in Poland.
As such, if one were to "undo" this change in identity to make Lemkos constitute Rusyns, you would also have to do the same for all Rusyns who now consider themselves Ukrainian. Which is original research as far as Wiki is concerned, as he also says:
some people will say that Rusyn is simply the older historic name for Ukrainian, and that Lemko is a regional name of Ukrainian, while others are convinced that the names Lemko or Rusniak are regional forms for Rusyn which, in turn, designates a people that is distinct from the Ukrainian and every other surrounding nationality.
Based solely on statistics in a census, how are we in a position to decide whether Rusyns should be lumped in with Ukrainians, or Lemkos with Ukrainians; or if Lemkos should be lumped in with Rusyn based on the premise of "some people say it"--
Львівське (
говорити)
04:26, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Another
source,--
Львівське (
говорити)
04:55, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
By the early twentieth century the Rusyns living on the northern slopes of the Carpathians had given up their traditional ethnonym, Rusnak, for the name Lemko. As the Rusnaks north of the mountains adopted the new name Lemko, they also evolved from an ethnographic to an ethnonational group.
Whatever they call themselves, they speak the Rusyn language and are part of the Rusyn people. This not the Carpathian Ruthenia article it's the wider Rusyn article. Magocsi says 2/3 of Rusyns are of Lemko origin.
http://books.google.com/books?id=dbUuX0mnvQMC&pg=PA341&dq=magocsi+encyclopedia+lemko&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-J79UrHcMueusATbk4CICQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=magocsi%20encyclopedia%20lemko&f=false
The simple answer hear is to give the Polish census numbers for both groups per WP:ATTRIBUTE. According to the Lemko article, there are 6,000 full-blooded Lemkos, and 4,000 half blooded Polish, and 1,000 none-Polish Lemkos. I don't know if that should be counted as 6,000 Lemkos, the 11,000 total, or 6,000 + 5,000/2 = 8,500 Lemkos. For now I'll say 6,000. [1] μηδείς ( talk) 05:13, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Yes, simple solutions are always the best. Obviously, conflating this article in order to create one neat category with a corresponding single article ( what synth is not) must be the logical solution (!?) -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 05:50, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Lemkos, while they identify primarily as Lemkos, also generally consider themselves to be a subgroup of Rusyns. See for example here: [22] [23] or here [24] Ausir ( talk) 00:36, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
References
WARNING regarding Wiki naming policy for ethnic groups and self-identification Just a reminder of Wiki naming policy for ethnic groups: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(ethnicities_and_tribes) "Self-identification-How the group self-identifies should be considered. If their autonym is commonly used in English, it would be the best article title. Any terms regarded as derogatory by members of the ethnic group in question should be avoided." As noted by Paul Robert Magosci, there is an ethnic group known in English as Ruthenians, but which self identifies as Carpatho-Rusyns, or simply Rusyns. They do not self-identify as Ukrainians. In fact, they find the Ukrainian label offensive. Anyone refering to Carpatho-Rusyns as Ukrainians may result in complaints being lodged in the appropriate Wiki forums. 37.200.224.205 ( talk) 02:02, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
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@ Geohem: The paragraph, that starts from the sentence "Until the middle of the 19th century, ethnic Ukrainians referred to themselves as Ruthenians ("Rusyns" in Ukrainian, "Rutén" in Hungary)" need for a more general overview of how the term "Rusyn" from a common East-Slavic endoethnonym became the ethnonym of the small ethnic group. In my correction, sources were cited.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 12:19, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
all the Eastern Slavs up to the Baltic Sea not so long ago used "Rusyn" as endoethnonym-- this statement is false. 17th centrury is pretty long time ago. Staszek Lem ( talk) 21:28, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Comment This article is about modern ethnic group or Rusyns. How East Slavs were self-laming in the past belongs to article Ruthenians. Staszek Lem ( talk) 21:38, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Until the middle of the 19th century, ethnic Ukrainians referred to themselves.... So, the question how East Slavs were self-naming in the past belongs to this article. By the way, this statement is not confirmed by any sources, but I do not see any attempts to remove it. This is very similar to POV-pushing.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 22:00, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
i see in the article-- feel free to delete it. Staszek Lem ( talk) 22:07, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
So, the question how East Slavs were self-naming in the past belongs to this articleVery weak argument in wikipedia. At the very top of the article there is the disambiguation note about other uses of the term Staszek Lem ( talk) 22:07, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes, today Rusyns are subgroup of Ukrainianss, in majority view.- Perhaps, but this is not the only point of view. Now the article contains Lie by omission. Ukrainians called themselves Ruthenians? Oh sure, but not only they. As to a "majority view": "Rusyn <...> - any of several East Slavic peoples (modern-day Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Carpatho-Rusyns) [26].-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 07:05, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
There is WP:SYNTH happening on the the Ruthenians article. Would other editors knowledgeable in this area please take a look assist in clearing up the dispute on the article's talk page? Thank you. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 04:31, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
Русины, Рутены (нем. Russinen, Ruthenen) — употребляемое преимущественно поляками и немцами название русского населения австро-венгерских земель, в отличие от русских (русских подданных), причем название рутены — средневековое латинское название вообще русских, а Р. — неправильное образование множественного числа от единственного числа русин. Сами Р. зовут себя в единственном числе русин, во множественном числе — русскими, веру свою — русской, свой народ и язык — русскими. Р. живут по обоим склонам Карпат, в Галиции, Буковине и Венгрии, и принадлежат к южнорусской части русского племени, отличаясь от малорусов (украинцев) как особенностями языка, так и физическим складом и этнографическими признаками
Eng (my translation):
Rusyns, Ruthenians (German Russinen, Ruthenen) - used primarily by the Poles and Germans, the name of the Russian population of the Austro-Hungarian lands, in contrast to the Russian (Russian subjects), and besides the name Ruthenians - the medieval Latin name of all Russians, and R. - incorrect plural formation from an singular rusyn. R. call themselves in the singular rusyn, in plural - Russian, their faith - Russian, their people and language - Russian. R. live on both slopes of the Carpathians, in Galicia, Bukovina and Hungary, and belong to the South Russian part of the Russian tribe, differing from the Little Russians (Ukrainians) in their language, physical characteristics and ethnographic features
When is this name first attested in relation to them? -- Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii ( talk) 09:38, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
a solution has to be found - I have no problem with majority of your improvements - but identifying Rusyns of Transcarpathia as "Ukrainians" is heavily misleading (shall it be by good faith, or by negligence, or ny a non-precise source) earlier the 1930s' Ukrainist movement - that affected and was adopted only by the part of the population -. In Hungary (inluding Transcarpathia with or within) only the second half of the 20th century Ukrainians settled, until it was populated solely by Rusyns. The Ruthenians as an old term were not just used for Ukrainians and Belorussians, but Rusyns as well and even for Russians or all of he ancestors of these.
1. So it has to be also identified, the term Ruthenian were used for Rusyns as well (not just in the Austrian Empire, but officially in the Kingdom of Hungary)
2. Is not enough that "came to be associated primarily with those Ukrainians who lived under ... Trancarpathia", because mainly in was associated with the Rusyn population of Transcarpathia, the selective timeline the Ukrainian populations was missing (18th cent-1945), or being marginal (between 1930-1945 followers of the Ukrainist movement).
Please have in mind we should be totally neutral and not take sides or support even by mistake or negligence that Ukrainist idea that tries to deny the existence of the historical Rusyn people who never called them Ukrainians before, and not even today all of the accepted or adopted thhis ethnonym, this separate view (Rusyn vs. Ukrainian) identity and classification is identifed and mentioned without taking sides in all related articles.
Thus a proper copy-edit, rephrasing or supplement in the section and in the sentence is needed, otherwise there is no consesus for this addition justlike this. Thanky You( KIENGIR ( talk) 15:24, 22 June 2019 (UTC))
we as editors only cite what's said in RS-- Britannica is a fairly reliable source for you? "Rusyn <...> - any of several East Slavic peoples (modern-day Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Carpatho-Rusyns) [27]. And this has already been discussed earlier.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 22:22, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
Please note that I've reverted the article to an older, consensus variant prior the strange development of an anthropology section, as well as a DNA section.
Articles on far larger ethnic groups don't have 'anthropology' sections, and DNA/Genetics sections are approached with extreme caution. Wikipedia most certainly doesn't base a genetics section on a single research paper for various reasons, not the least of which is WP:COPYVIO.
While I can appreciate the desire to improve the article, improvements must be made following WP:CAREFUL: that is, BOLD is great, but caution is essential.
Before further development, could contributors please bring their thoughts and sources to the talk page and consult with other editors as to additions and changes to content. No editors WP:OWN any given article (and I'm directing ownership issues at myself here), but policy and guidelines exist for a reason. It's tempting develop an article giving it the gravitas one thinks is owed to the subject, but not at the price of overwriting it depending on SYNTH, not adhering to WEIGHT, and using the findings of a single report to create a contentious section. Ethnicity is a complex issue. Trying to simplify it by treating it as if there were easy markers by which an ethnic group could be identified is antithetical to Wikipedia's core policies.
I do think some valid improvements were made to the article, but I'd like to see the genetics section removed altogether for the time being (invoking COPYVIO and WP:CHERRY here). General removals and additions need to be discussed, as does the structure of the article. Thank you for discussing before editing. Iryna Harpy ( talk) 00:51, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
As far as I know, there is n no certainty where exactly the White Croats lived. I began to check the sources. The book of Sedov [2] says (mostly google-translate):
"In the historical literature there are many hypotheses and speculations regarding the localization of the place of residence of the “White Croats” from which the Dalmatian Croats came. Most researchers place these lands in the Czech Republic, since Konstantin Bagryanonny reports that they live "beyond Bagivaria" (Bavaria?), "On the other side of Turkia (Hungary), near Frangia (Franconia), and border on the Slavs - unbaptized Serbs." But this is the home of Czech Croats, who were well known both in Byzantium and in the Frankish kingdom in the 10th century. These Croatian lands, much more likely, were mistaken by the Byzantines for the ancient home of the Croatian tribe. Already V. Yagich argued that the Croats could not come to Dalmatia from the basin of Laba, they moved from more eastern regions, from the Vistula River and the Dniester. The researcher resolutely rejected the existence of Great Croatia in the north, considering it to be the fantasy of Constantin Porphyrogenitus [19].
At the same time, the message about White (or Great) Croatia as the ancient homeland of the Croats by other researchers was recognized as a reality. In particular, L. Niderle believed that Great Croatia was in the Carpathian region. The Arab authors of the 9th-10th centuries allegedly testify to its existence. (Slavic region Chordab, Chravat, Chrvat) [20]. In the scientific literature, attempts have been made to specify information about Greater Croatia. Thus, the Polish researcher E. Gaczynski believed that this Croatian community dates back to the 5th-8th centuries and occupied the space north of Carpathian Mountains, from the headwaters of the Oder in the west to Goryn in the east. He admitted that Horvath, the leader of the Alani detachment, ruled these lands as the governor of the Huns and after his death the term "Croats" formed from this anthroponym came into use among the local Slavs, becoming their ethnonym [21]. Other historians also placed White or Great Croatia there. F. Dvornik extended its territory to the upper Elbe in the west and to the Western Bug in the east."
Sedov himself concludes: "These hypothetical constructions are now of purely historiographic interest, since they do not find any confirmation in archaeological materials. On the basis of the latter, it is possible to assert with all certainty that the Croats began their history in the Ants environment, moved to the west from there, and divided into several groups, settled in various regions of the early medieval Slavic territory."
I think we can not refer to this book in support of this sentence: "The region of Ukrainian Carpathians (including Zakarpattia and Prykarpattia) since the Early Middle Age was inhabited by the tribes of White Croats."— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicoljaus ( talk • contribs) 07:24, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
The lack of term "White" does not matter as the White Croats mean all those who did not live in the South.The question of who the White Croats are is too complicated. In the book of Mayorov there is an example, when White Croatia is located in the South, in Dalmatia: "Croatia Alba, que et inferior Dalmatia dicitur". May be it will be better to replace "tribes of White Croats" (no one knows who they were and where they lived) by "tribes of ancient Croats" (there is no discrepancy in the sources)-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 14:19, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Sedov in the next sentence rejects that opinion you push forward, mentions the issue on the existence of White Croatia and that it more probably existed in the East, near rivers Vistula and Dniester as well the Carpathians.You are mistaken. Sedov doesn't mentioned Carpathians at this "next sentence" and this is not his own opinion. His opinion is: "These hypothetical constructions are now of purely historiographic interest, since they do not find any confirmation in archaeological materials. On the basis of the latter, it is possible to assert with all certainty that the Croats began their history in the Ants environment, moved to the west from there, and divided into several groups, settled in various regions of the early medieval Slavic territory." Did you hear that the Antes lived in the Carpathians? Me not.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 20:00, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
I've found quite a good article by FRANCESCO BORRI who makes a conclusion: "The only thing we can say with some degree of certainty is that, according to Constantine Porphyrogenitus, White Croatia was: ‘somewhere in Central Europe near Bavaria, beyond Hungary and next to the Frankish empire’" [3] Why he did not mention "Ukrainian Carpathians (including Zakarpattia and Prykarpattia)", I am surprised.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 07:50, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
I submitted a request here: Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Rusyns#White_Croats-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 08:48, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
@
TaivoLinguist: Hello. Could you expand your idea from the description of
this edit in more detail? I agree with the message, but you removed references to recent works (books of 1995 and 2011, written by recognized experts, as well as the modern encyclopedia of 2013). I would prefer to remove redundant references to the Great Russian Encyclopedia, which is known for copy-paste from Wikipedia, as well as link to the article of Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine, which was written in 1985 and contains obvious errors (which are discussed in sources you deleted).--
Nicoljaus (
talk)
14:03, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
the most common name to differentiate all these tribes from the Croats (nation) in the Balkans.The repetition of the same talking points, not supporting them with anything, is a form of a disruptive behavior.
updated and revised in the last ten years? I do not see any differences.
I highly doubt you are capable to differentiate reliable from unreliable source.you are constantly at the bottom of the pyramid. If you really see the problem in my edits - open the topic in the appropriate noticeboards. Let's see whose behavior will be considered destructive in fact.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 07:54, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Because that's the general scholarship name for them to not mistake them with the Croats in the Balkans.Well, I will ask only one last time - to provide a reliable source that describes the situation in this way. What I have seen so far suggests otherwise: for example, "it is mistake to call the Carpathian Croats “white”" or "“White Croats” are localized in Serbia" etc. If you ignore this request again and continue the blanc reverting without any search for consensus, I will go to ANI.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 13:41, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
References
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
By the project scale, I would rate importance as "high", as Rusyns would qualfy as an "ethnic group" Pustelnik 20:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Doesnt the article I now post eliminate a need for this page? Who is wikipedia to debate the ethnicity of the Rusyns when Ukraine now recognizes them as an ethnic minority? [2]
OK with me. I have inserted ratings. I'm keeping this section open in case something thinks they deserve a higher or lower rating. Why is Ukraine's recognition of the Rusyns as an ethnic group relevant or important? Pustelnik 19:13, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I would be very interested in an article about any transient independent state. I have likened this to Carpathian Ruthenia, which implies a legally autonomous area in the post World War I era, with little detail. Can someone clarify or expand this? Pustelnik 13:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree. They're closer related to cucumbers.-- Bandurist ( talk) 17:54, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Are we witnessing ethnicities being created here? I think we are but I'm not sure where... My ancestors referred to themselves as Rusyn (or Ruthenian, same thing, germanic version). They were not separate from the people that call themselves Ukrainians today. I think this splitting of words is completely based on politics. I think the Ukrainians realize that they share a history with the russians but are recoiling from the communist russia of the previous century. I think maybe those who refer to themselves as 'rusyn' or 'ruthenian' these days are recoiling from the nationalistic attitudes of Ukraine. Maybe the ruthenians are filled with a sense of pan-slavism. They should be careful of that. They should remember that this pan-slavism idea was :exploited by the Russians to give a purpose to invading the nations that surround them. They should also remember that they (the rusyns) :and the Ukrainians share the name Rusyn historically, while the Russians were Muscovites. To me Rusyn, Ruthenian and Ukrainian are all part of the same body. I'm guessing that this wikipedia article was written by Magcosi. I've read that he has written many books on the subject. In fact, I'm under the impression that he invented to idea of Rusyn's being a separate people. -Joe Yakimicki
The truth is Rusyns are Ukrainians, and Ukrainians are Rusyns, "russians" are muscovians (moskali), the only reason Ukrainians call themselves Ukrainians is because muscovians stole the 'Rus' name because of how famous Kyivan Rus was at the time, muscovians wanted to become more famous. Ukrainians wanted to show they are not muscovians, people who call themselves Rusyns probably didn't know of muscovians stealing the name, thus they didn't see a reason to change their name to Ukrainians. So if we wanted to be really correct we would call Ukrainians/Rusyns Russians or Rusyns, and 'russians' muscovians! Nroscha 17:11, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
As a side commnent, when speaking of the people in Transcarpathia in his book on Ukrainian history Magosci consistantly refers to its people as "Rusyns/Ukrainians." Faustian 14:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Checking in nearly 10 years after my previous comment-- I just wanted to update this to say that 10 more years of interest and research have really only led me to this: Perhaps some geographic and temporal locations had a stronger sense of demarcation between Rusyn, Ruthenian, Ukrainian, etc. I think the lines of demarcation are very fuzzy in many locations and periods of time. Times of conflict often seem to lead to seeing black and white in a place where that is very gray. (Joe Yakimicki, April 2017) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jyakimic ( talk • contribs) 19:37, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Nroscha. Rusyns are people of the Rus or Ruthenia (Latinized version), but such an entity fell into oblivion since the XIII century. The primary decedant of that state is Ukraine. Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 21:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
When my Grandmother came to the US in the early 1900's she refered to herself as a Ruthenian. When I found her entry in a ships log through Ellis Island she is listed as Ruthenian and the term Russian was crossed out. Just my two cents. ---Steve
I'm an American, but I had Rusyn ancestors. Some were imprisoned at Talerhof, some formed the Lemko-Rusyn Republic, and others were deported in the Vistula operation. One even wrote a Rusyn Primer and reader in the 1930's, which was later suppressed by the Polish government. For the most part, they did not consider themselves to be Ukrainians, but Lemkos. My grandmother's sister immigrated to Canada, and did consider herself to be Ukrainian. Of course, the Canadian government considered her ethnic group to be "Austrians", and interned them in WW I. I would consider ethnicity to be self-defined. I resent someone insisting that my ancestors were Ukrainians, as they showed by their actions that they did not consider themslves to be Ukrainians. Pustelnik 18:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I was born in the US. My grandmother (Anna Hunchar Potocnak) always referred to herself as Ruthenian (Rusyn) Ukrainian, and Orthodox Catholic. She was quite adamant on her self-identification, and even stated she spoke both Ukrainian and Ruthenian (along with a few other languages). I do not think Rusyns are a subgroup that does not deserve an entry - quite the opposite. If she felt that adamant about her identification, obviously it meant quite a lot to those who fled the area to the US "diaspora". Winterlongone 21:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
This article seemed to have been cut and pasted and re-editted to the extent that it did not make sense as a whole. I added a slew of links to connect it with other articles as well as enforced the term "Rusyns" throughout the article in order to not confuse the reader. I also added a section for references, should anyone have the time to peruse the major writings and expand this article. As for bias, I attempted to be neutral and hope that I presented as many viewpoints as possible.-- tufkaa 16:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC) p.s.:Someone please correct my horrible translation of the Polish-language reference.-- tufkaa 16:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm wondering what you find objectionable about the above phrase. Also, given that most of historical Ruthenians/Rusyns (in Galicia, including the vast majority of Zakarpatia) consider themselves Ukrainian today, the Ukrainian focus seems appropriate. On a personal note, a know many recent immigrants from Zakarpatia (Prykarpatia) in the USA, none of whom considers themsevles Rusyn despite the different dialect (an example that sticks in my mind is the word for socks - "shtrympfy" - rather than "skarpetky". Faustian 22:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I find it sad and fascinating at the same time that some in Ukraine (neither Faustian nor Tufkaa are among them but I don't want to call names of some editors) like to talk about bads of the SU in relationtion with an effective denial of Ukrainian identity (or keeping it exclusively to folklore stuff) but as the same time, following the Ukrainian attainment of independence, do the same to Rusyns, calling them "Ukrainians". Remember the " Romanians who forgot their native language" thingy? I remember very well like some of our Verkhovna Rada deputies (I think it was the Plushch' time) screamed inside the parliament about the dangers of "Political Ruthenianism" (Політичний русинізм) in the '90s. A similar interview of Mykhailo Tyvodar I linked to the article a while ago to provide the diversity of opinions also speaks along those lines. To those who think that Rusyns are just Ukrainians, I suggest to go to any Rusyn web-sites and, don't read the Propaganda, but just look at the articles. This one for instance? Is this Ukrainian language? I remember a long discussion with User:PANONIAN and others where we tried to figure what "Перед кунківском церквю капітан ПВ одберат мельдунок" is supposed to mean.
So, let's separate two issues. Actually three issues. The first one is that in the Austrian Empire what we now call "Ukrainians" were all called "Ruthenians" (Russinen?) and given some reasonable freedom compared to their Ukrainian brethren of, say, Volhynia, of the RU empire, in order to prevent any splitting of the people's loyalty towards the more Russia-leaning parts of Ukraine as well as to Ukraine itself. Some of those people were, perhaps, simply Ukrainians in modern sense. Some where Rusyn. That's the first point. The second point is that the issue exists along with people. Due to its unfortunate politization, statistical data has to be treated with care but there is a significant amount of research (including but not limited to Magocsi) on the subject. And the third connected issue is that this politicization is harmful and editors should not scrutinize others exclusively to try to deduce some hidden political agenda.
Fazil Iskander wrote in his book that "Our science is so politicized that people somehow forget that the truth is interesting in its own right". ( У нас наука настолько политизирована, что люди как-то забывают, что истина и сама по себе интересна) in connection with a dispute about the authorship of the "Great Abkhazian Wall". A useful reread for some (not the editors above) who are perpetually seeking a hidden agenda in every statement anyone makes at Wikipedia. -- Irpen 15:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the interesting commentary. The linked article [ [3] was a fascinating read. Irpen, have you ever heard a "pure" Galician dialect? (nowadays it is more common among grandparents in the diaspora than in Ukraine, at least according to my visits there) I am no professional linguist, but to me the Lemko passage seems to be a combination of Galician and Russian. Perhaps that reflects a similarity with Belorusyn of which I am unfamiliar, or even an insertion of Russian words by the Russophile coders of the Rusyn language, comparable to the Church Slavonic insertions into the literary Russian language when it was first codified. The use of the passive tense (?) ся or ce comparable to Spanish se is typical of Galicia as well. I found lists of some Galician words (which didn't include the Galician spatzeruvaty for huliaty or the Austrian-derived greeting servus): [4] [5]. But unfortunately I haven't been able to get an entire passage, as a comparison to the Lemko passage would have been interesting. Perhaps they would be equally far apart from literary Ukrainian language based on the Poltava (central/eastern Ukraine) dialect. All of which point to the numerous potential possibilities inherent in national identitification and language. It is a fascinating subject, and perhaps if I have time I will try to devote an article to it - it would take a couple of hours, though, so who knows when that will happen.
As for Ukrainian sensitivity to the Rusyn issue, I think it stems from several sources. Firstly, the issues and conflict are quite familar in the nationalistic West. There, where the local dialect is similar to Rusyn, the same conflict between Ukrainophiles and Rusynophiles and Russophiles also played out, in the 19th century. The victor in Galicia is quite clear. To a Galician, a Rusynophile from America or across the Slovak border may seem like an unpleasant throwback to an earlier heretofore resolved conflict.
Secondly, the Rusynophile orientation was explicitly utilised by Hungarian and Polish authorites in their respective lands to try to seperate their subject peoples' from the greater Ukrainian nation. In the case of the Poles, Austrian neutrality prevented the Poles from fully using their resources and the Russinophile orientation withered in Galicia, although the Poles tried to revive it after 1920 by forcing Galician Ukrainians to refer to themselves as Rusyns in official documents. By then it was too late, the Ukrainian identity had been set, and the result was only resentment for "Rusynism." In the lands under Hungary (Zakarpatia), in contrast, before 1914 Rusynism received the explicit support of the state and therefore survived, albeit even with the state support it was no more than equal to the Ukrainophile orientation there (according to Magosci's book on Ukrainian history). All of these events have led many Ukrainians to view Rusynism as a sort of foreign (Polish, Hungarian, or Russian)intrigue and its proponents as some sort of collaborators. The irony here is obvious, as the same accusations have been levelled against Ukrainanism itself by some Russians.
Thirdly, the similarities between Rusyn and other western Ukrainian cultures and language are so great that it is frankly difficult for (particularly Western) Ukrainians to view Rusyns as a different people. It would be analogous, perhaps, to a situation in which some Alabamans insisted that Alabama was a seperate nation with its own language, codified the language of Faulkner (which, obviously, is quite different from standard English), while Mississipians remained "patriotic Americans" and merged their speech with that of standard American English.
My own personal opinion is that national identity depends on the people's self-identification. If most Rusyns come to feel themselves as a separate nation, than for whatever reason they arrive at this conclusuion it is their right to do so. But this issue should be independent from one of ethnicity or linguistic categorization. And it is still far from settled. As I mentioned earlier, Rusyns may become like Austrians in relation to Germans, a seperate nation. Or their national orientation may turn out to have been a fashion, like the supposed unique ethnicity of Polish nobles ( Sarmatism) or the Bavarian indepenence movement [6]. Faustian 19:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
And a Lviv dictionary: [7]. Faustian 20:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Now "Pannonian Rusyns" are a different ethnicity than "Rusyns" because they live in a different location and speak a different language. Well then I guess "German Americans" are a separate ethnicity from "Germans". See Pannonian Rusyn. 72.144.68.226 23:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
'even more new ethnicities' was a bad title Idiszero 01:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I wonder why the "Famous Rusyns" section was removed? -- ISasha 19:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
It is a shame, considering the notable personalities that are identified with the Rusyn heritage: Andy Warhol, Peter Wilhousky, Tom Ridge, Michael Strank et al. ( 192.77.143.154 14:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)) ~~
Please be aware that this page contains some very biassed opinions by the members of Ukrainian community. Ukrainian nationalists are very well known for denying Rusyns being a separate ethnicity. In the history of this page you can see a number of edits which were clearly caused by one's personal subjective views. One good example would be a number of Rusyns population these days. 54000 is a ridiculous number which does not represent the reality in any way.
Certainly, it's a right of every individual to be able to say what they want but I would take it with a grain of salt when Chinese nationalists talk about Tibetans or when Russian nationalists talk about Ukrainians. Or when Ukrainian nationalists talk about Rusyns.
Nationalism is a European concept superimposed on us. We hate it. We are composed of over 400 cultural-lingual groups in which Tibetian is a term used by British to create a lie that there was a Tibetian Kingdom. There are over 200 Living Buddhas in Four separate sects who are independent, of whom Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama are the leaders of the Yellow Sect, and there are Red Sect, Black Sect and Flower Sect. Keep your ignorance to your own, so not use us to againt the Han brothers.
(Fixing the formatting as the old one is nigh impossible to read)
Panchelan
The figure of 54,000 or so is from official census data. Sorry, but only about 10,000 people in Ukraine actually identified themselves as Rusyns on the last Ukrainian census. In modern Ukraine most Rusyns consider themselves of Ukrainian nationality. Faustian 16:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Some Rusyns don't even subscribe to the idea of a separate Rusyn nation, and would bristle at the idea of being called Ukrainian. I come from a Rusyn family that identifies heavily with being Russian, although their language and culture is decidedly more Ukrainian than Russian. I believe the term for people like me is "Russophile" and I know of many Rusyns who are similarly aligned.
to add
Ruthenians and Rusyns are name for nowadays Ukrainians. All my father’s family are Lemko Rusyns. Still they are Ukrainians. My mother's family from Bucovyna are Rusyns is well, and they are Ukrainians. Will give you an example of Ruthenians from Bukovyna. I want to show that Ruthenian or Rusyns is the name for Ukrainians on the example of postcards from time of Austro-Hungarian Empire from Bucovyna:
http://www.ljplus.ru/img3/a/r/aritmija/image032.jpg
http://pics.livejournal.com/igorsova/pic/00001696
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3605/ukrainiansis2.jpg
And here some fragments from a book "Русини а Москалі", written by Bucovinian Rusyns (Ukrainians) in Rutheian language (Ukrainian), dated 1911, from Chernivtsi where strongly emphasised that Rusyns are not Moscovites (Russians):
http://choana.livejournal.com/114557.html#cutid1
My Greatgrandparents were Rusyn immigrants from WESTERN SLOVAKIA (NOT UKRAINE). I consider myself of Rusyn decent, not Slovakian and certainly not Ukrainian. My Greatgrandmother would proudly proclaim she was Rusyn, not Russian. I find it very disappointing to:
1.) Find a Wikipedia Article that is under a series on Ukraine instead of on its' own proud Rusyn heritage.
2.) That this is obviously a site where Ukrainians are claiming that anyone who identifies themselves as Rusyn is actually a misguided Ukrainian. That is very insulting- it is like telling Ukrainians they are misguided Russians.
All this Ukrainian-identity should be kept to a brief statement and allow Rusyns to explain themselves. If you want to say you are Ukrainian and not Rusyn, then you should go to a "proud-to-be-Ukrainian site" instead. KURTAK 16 January 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.115.248.223 ( talk) 20:23, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn’t this be at Rusyn people? — Wiki Wikardo 23:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Podkarpatskije Rusiny is considered the Rusyn "national anthem", Ja Rusyn byl jesm' i budu - should it have a comma: Ja Rusyn byl, jesm' i budu? (meaning would be I was Rusyn, [I] am and will be)-- Constanz - Talk 12:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Adding up numbers by yourself is original research, especially when you do it from multiple sources. Conqueror100, please review these policies before reverting again. Khoi khoi 07:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
about US census here are some numbers: http://www.everyculture com/North-America/European-Americans-Bibliography.html In 1980 about 600,000 Americans were of Carpatho-Rusyn ancestry, although only 8,485 claimed such ancestry in the 1980 census. This is in part because many identify themselves as Ukrainians or Russians and because the U.S. census no longer considers the Carpatho-Rusyns as a distinct group. Magocsi, Paul R. (1984). Our People: Carpatho-Rusyns and Their Descendants in North America. Toronto: Multicultural History Society of Ontario.
Carpatho Rusyn 3,997 http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=D&-ds_name=D&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false&-mt_name=ACS_2002_EST_G2000_PCT026
I am 100% Rusyn. My grandparents were from Galicia (now in Poland), Northeast Slovakia and Ukraine (all in the Carpathian mountains). They identified themselves as Ruthenians when they came to the U.S. They spoke the Rusyn language (different but similar dialects), went to Greek Catholic and Orthodox churches (Byzantine), depending on what region they were from, followed Rusyn customs, etc. I love our old customs. When I went to Europe, I found that in each area they had their own Rusyn schools, beautiful wooden churches - everything was distinctly Rusyn. I have read that Ukraine is now recognizing the Rusyns as a separate and distinct people. Now maybe the Rusyns there will not be afraid to identify themselves as Rusyns and you will see the numbers go up. When I visited my family there, they were afraid to say they were Rusyn and were so happy that I was an American and proud to be a Rusyn. We had an interesting discussion about this issue. Creating ethnicities? I don't think so. I am a Rusyn, my parents were Rusyn, my grandparents were Rusyn, etc. ( RusynA 14:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC))
This debate is purely semantical. There is no certain way to tell the dialect from the language as well as to tell a national subgroup from a separate nation. And, yes, these issues are affected by politics as well. We should just describe the situation without attaching any labels ourselves. -- Irpen 17:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
A reasonable conclusion, as usual. Faustian 17:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Just because certain countries want to try and snuff out ethnic minorities doesn't mean the people themselves don't identify as a separate culture. language content has been discussed, but really, just the number of websites and ORGANIZED SOCIETIES pertaining to the Rusyn people indicates that a significant amount of Rusyns identify themselves as Rusyn, NOT Ukranian, Slovak, Polish, Serbian, etc. Observe these links. [8] [9] [10] [11] lists other scholarly organizations identifying with the Rusyn people. [12] [13] I challenge any Ukranian to see if this language is their own.
Interesting
- Faustian 04:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Ruthenians and Rusyns are name for nowadays Ukrainians. All my father’s family are Lemko Rusyns. Still they are Ukrainians. My mother's family from Bucovyna are Rusyns is well, and they are Ukrainians. Will give you an example of Ruthenians from Bukovyna. I want to show that Ruthenian or Rusyns is the name for Ukrainians on the example of postcards from time of Austro-Hungarian Empire from Bucovyna:
http://www.ljplus.ru/img3/a/r/aritmija/image032.jpg
http://pics.livejournal.com/igorsova/pic/00001696
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3605/ukrainiansis2.jpg
And here some fragments from a book "Русини а Москалі", written by Bucovinian Rusyns (Ukrainians) in Rutheian language (Ukrainian), dated 1911, from Chernivtsi where strongly emphasised that Rusyns are not Moscovites (Russians):
http://choana.livejournal.com/114557.html#cutid1
The problem is very simple - Rusyns are not Ukrainians but Ukrainians are Rusyns. "Ukrainian" is just a weird name designed for them that's why Slovak Rusyns can't adopt it... 91.127.47.237 17:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Ukrainians and Rusyns are the same nation. Just like Greeks and Ellinicos, Georgians and Sakartvelo, Armenians and Hayer.
seven
Ladies and Gentelmen! I would like to remind you, that the mission of Wikipedia is descriptive rather than prescriptive. This means that we are here not to decide whether Rusyns are a separate ethnos or a subethnos of Ukrainians. We have just to describe facts: some number of people in Slovac Republic, Poland and Ukraine identify themselves as Rusyn and do not consider themselves Ukrainian. This is just a plain fact.
On the other hand there is no facts supporting the claim that nearly the whole population of Transkarpattia Oblast are Rusyns. As well as there is no fact indicating that any significant number of Hutsuls and Boikos identify themselves as Rusyns. Concerning Lemkos, the situation is different. A significant part of them claim distinct from Ukrainian (Rusyn or a separate Lemko) ethnicity. But we should not forget the fact that a significant number of Lemkos do identify themselves as Ukrainians.
Let us just describe these facts in Wikipedia. Our own views on the subject can be discussed at internet forums rather than at Wikipedia. Regards, -- AndriyK 08:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
It exists 60,000 people, who claim that they are Rusyns. These are numbers from national official bureaus for statistics:
So I came to the conclusion that 24,201+15,626+10,100+2,337+5,800+1,098+1,106=60,268. It is standard counting of numbers and it does not violate WP:SYN. Conqueror100 16:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Faustian 16:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no data concerning Ukraine. No Rusyns are mentioned here ( http://ukrcensus.gov.ua/results/general/nationality/zakarpatia/.) Your calculations are wrong-- 133.41.84.172 10:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
When you guys are done with revert warring and have the article unprotected, please add this ref to an article. In the meanwhile, please read it.
It is easy to google the credentials of this respected scholar. BTW, he is the author of the current Britannica's article on Ukraine. Happy edits. -- Irpen 17:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I chose the images of the four most recognisable Rusyns (and who have free images, so the image wont be removed due to license problems) and compiled an image for the article. I think it came out pretty good so... enjoy :-) (it's about time the article has it's image). M.V.E.i. 22:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The almost part of Lemkos call themself Rusyns, but almost Hutsuls and Boikos call themself Ukrainians. First Ukrainians immigrants came to Argentina in 1897. They were from southwestern Ukraine (Boikivhchyna, Trancarpathia, Hutsulshchyna, Bukovyna, Podillia and Besarabia). The immigrants from Boikivschyna, Transcarpathia and Hutsulshchyna called themself Ukrainians. My grandparents were Boikos´and Hutsuls´sons and they called themself Ukrainians. These immigrants were proud be Ukrainians. I´m proud too be descendent of Ukrainian Hutsuls and Boikos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.55.77.228 ( talk) 03:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have a map or can make a map of the location in Europe where most Rusyns live?-- Boguslav M 23:49, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Can someone knowledgeable about Rusyn cuisine help with a question? Is there a dish called levish or leviš (which is dumplings and cheese), possibly traditional around the area of Strážske? If you have information about it, can you please post at Talk:Slovak cuisine? Thank you in advance for your help. Badagnani ( talk) 03:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi, people who added "1,710,000" figure as population in Ukraine - please explain where it is from. -- windyhead ( talk) 19:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Joensuu 77 ( talk) 22:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Answer: Please, read the article you comment properly through from the beginning to the end. I speak about ancestral Rusyns, and represent both the sources and calculation procedure I have used. In the same way, the size of ethnic minorities sometimes has to be estimated e.g. in France, where all the ethnic groups are legally unrecognized by the state. The Romance minorities of France are an analogy with the status of Slavonic Rusyns in Ukraine. Actually, the way of estimation I have used is relatively moderate, because the Rusyns probably living in Ukraine, outside their rodina, are not included. This kind of people surely exist. "joensuu_77"
As far as we know, the immense majority of the population of Zakarpattia oblast (close to one million) in Ukraine defines themselves as Ukrainians, not Rusyns.
In many old Kingdom of Hungary ethnographic maps, Rusyns/Ruthenians and Ukrainians are in fact counted as one ethnic group.
So... what’s behind the current supposed “surge” in Rusyn nationalism in Ukraine? Well, the Russian state-controlled Russia Today can give you some clues. More details, in this article from The Jamestown Foundation.
I read that Father Sidor has been offering Russian passports to the Rusyns. ҃҃ ҃҃҃҃
There's more Hugarians in Zakarpattia than Rusyns. It's just an extremist (Sidor) handing out passports, trying to stir up trouble-- Lvivske ( talk) 18:07, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, we do witness here in English Wikipedia the creation of Rusys which are generally known as Ruthenians elsewhere in Europe. This area was ruled by the Hungarian Kings since Arpad and later since 1867 by Hapsburg Monarchs to 1918. Not any connection to Imperial Russia at all. Inside Dual Monarchy this part belonged to Hungary, not Austrian adminstration, as Austrian (Polish) Galicia and Lodomeria. After The Peace Treaty of Trianon on June 4, 1920 to 1939 Ruthenia belonged to Republic of Czechoslovakia and Hungarians occupied this former Czechoslovakian Province in two parts, the southern part including Munkacs and Ungvar in November 1938 and the northern and the most eastern part on March 15, 1939. In October 1944 the Hungarian army retreated, by orders given by Hungarian Regent Miklos von Horthy, from Karpathians without any fight and the Red Army and the Soviets marched in Karpathian Ruthenia on October 15,1944. According to the Czechoslovakian offical statistic of 1931 the area of Podkarpatské Rusi was 12.617 km2. Total population was 725.000 inhabitants of which 62 % were Ukraineans (449.500), 15 % Hungarians (108.750) and 4.5 % (32.625) were Chechs and Slovaks. The rest of the population (134.125) were classified as others of their origin including Poles, Germans, Russians, and Roumanians in addition to Jews and Gipsy (Roma) people. All offical names were written at first in Latin letters, then followed in Kyrillic letters. Former Ungarian small town Körösmezö become Jasina and Kiraly-Haza become Korolevo. Raho become Rachov e.t.c. On May 8, 1944 the Exile Czechoslovakian Government in London had nominated Dr. Fr. Nemec to its legal representantive in Province of Podkarpatské Rusi but the Soviet authorities prevented his delegation of working in Town Hust (Hungarian Huzst). The Soviets collected some left wing activists or symphatiers from local population but some Ruthenian refugees where collected from all over Soviet Union, even from GULAG prison camps to Munkacévo (Munkacs) to form a "National Assembly" with 603 representantives. It was this "National Assembly" which voted to "Incorporate the Podkarpatské Rusi territory into Soviet Union" on November 25 / 26, 1944. The Czechoslovakian Government accepted this in meeting on June 29, 1945, just before the Postdam Conference to gain Stalin´s support against the Polish demands over Cesky Tesin (Teschen). But the old Provincial frontier was not enough for the Soviets. They wanted all railway line from Cop (Csap) through Uzhorod (Ungvar) to Polish border on Ung Pass, to be included into ceded area and the Czechoslovakian Government had to accept this demand. Thus, the border was changed to more western direction. This is the real history how the Zakarpitskaja Oblast inside Ukraijna SSR was created and Ruthenians turned to be Rusys, as it happened in 1945. The Austrian Bukowina with its capital Czernowitz did not belong to Upper Hungary, but direct to Austria. Czernowitz was offically renamed to Roumanian Cernauti. If someone shows an Ukraineans living in Bukowina as living in Podkarpatské Rusi, then it is time to study more of European history. If someone was living at Stanislau (Stanislawow), Kolomea (Kolomyja) or Delatyn, he / she was living in Austrian Galicia, not Podkarpatské Rusi. The border between Galicia and Bukowina run at Nepolokoutz. Luzan was in Northern Bukowina. Between Podkarpatské Rusi and Galicia the admistrative border between Austria and Hungary were at Woronienka at Jablonka Pass, and at Beskid Pass north of Munkacs. Ung Pass was adminstrationally in Slovakia then indide Ung Province in Kingdom of Hungary, later inside Slovakia in Czechoslovakia. Bukowina meant Land of Beechs. Before Austrians it was ruled by Ottoman Sultans from Constantinople. But from Kijev, never in known history before 1940. But it did not prevent the part of people to be Malo Russians e.g. Ukraineans. (Border landerers). As were the part of "Lembergerers" inside borders of Austria in Danube Dual Monarchy.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.122.217 ( talk) 12:46, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I have: Most Rusyns are Byzantine rite Catholics, who since the Union of Brest in 1596 and the Union of Uzhhorod in 1646 have been in communion with the Holy See. However, they have their own particular Church, the Ruthenian Catholic Church, and retain the Byzantine Rite liturgy in Old Slavonic and most of the outward forms of Byzantine or Eastern Christianity. You have: in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.
The Catholic church means Universl church. It consists of a number of different rites.Each rite has a number of differnt churches. Currently there are 7 rites. previously there were 14. The largest being the Roman or Latin rite.
The second largest is the Byzantine (or Greek, or Constatinian rite) which is the second largest in number of adherents and includes the Albenese church, Belarusian church, Bulgarian church, Greek church, Hungarian church,Mcedonian, Romanian, Russian, Rutenian, Slovak, and Ukrainian churches
The Alexandrian rite includes the Coptic and Ethiopic churches. The Armenian rite has the Armenian church. The Antiochean rite which includes the Maronite and Syrian churches.
The Chaldean rite and eastern rite churches also exist.
These churches are either in communion with Rome or part of the Catholic church, but are not in communion with the Roman Catholci church (which is a seperate rite.
Its a very minor difference and something many lay people often mistake, but it is a mistake none the less.
Many people automatically say Roman when talking about the Catholic church because it is the largest rite and because the seat of the Holy See is in Rome. The correction was made not because it sounds in a particular way but because it was technically wrong.҃҃҃҃ Bandurist ( talk) 03:52, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
As we know the populations of the Slavic world in particular in Eastern Slavic world is dropping considerably. Ukraine has one of the largest population drops (28%) by 2050 falling to 33.1 million from the current 46 million. The Bulgarian statistics are even more shocking falling at the rate of 38%.
Unfortunately Rusyn is not one of the groups that was not listed but could probably have a similar population drop between Polish and Ukrainisn in the high 20's to 30's.
With many Rusyns living outside of the ancestoral home the rate may be higher, however if Rusyns continue to be strictly pious they may not control their birth rate and the numbers may be lower. In any case we can expect about half the population of Rusyns by 2050, and almost total decimation by 2080 (0nly a guestimate). What are people's thoughts regard to the raqpid change in Rusyn demographics. Bandurist ( talk) 03:52, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
The article seems to cover all the relvent point of view, and all facts are referenced to appropriate sources. I am removing the nuetrality tag; if there's a problem we should discuss it here. Faustian ( talk) 14:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Now, quite frankly, I don't understand the need for any users out there to be reverting or deleting every single edit on this page, many of which were constructive and just basic cleaning up of the article. Any users who took issue with edits, post it up so we can talk about this and hammer this out.-- Львівське ( talk) 17:20, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Andy Warhol was a US citizen, born in Pittsburgh. His parents were of Rusyn ethnicity but I believe they were from Austria-Hungary. He might be considered a Rusyn American if a reliable source can be provided that he self-identified as such, but he's clearly not Rusyn. I removed him from the montage and my edit was reverted, thus I bring up the issue here. -- Nuujinn ( talk) 00:28, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Andy's biographies emphasize his ethnic background we must not deny his descent. 1 [17] Fakirbakir ( talk) 01:41, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
I suggest this article be changed to Carpatho-Rusyn, since that's what it primarily is about. The Pannonian-Rusyn article is separate, and I think the Ruthenian article should act as an index for all things Rusyn/Ruthenian to both avoid confusion and clarify the distinction between modern Rusyns and the use of 'Rusyn' before it split into Ukrainian/White Rusyn-- Львівське ( talk) 04:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Lemkos would disagree. Many Lemkos consider themslves to be Rusyn, but the Lemko Republic was not allowed to join Carpathian Ruthenia. Pustelnik ( talk) 00:32, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move but creating a narrower topic at Carpatho-Rusyns is permissable. Graeme Bartlett ( talk) 05:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC) Graeme Bartlett ( talk) 05:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Rusyns →
Carpatho-Rusyns — Move the article to more accurately reflect the subject matter. Current article is ambiguous and covers Ruthenes, Pannonian Rusyns, American diaspora....its just too indirect. Catch-all material should be covered in the Ruthenians article, "Rusyns" should be a disambig page.--
Львівське (
talk)
22:37, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Oppose You aren't making one suggestion, you are making two. You are suggesting (1) that the article be moved to Carpatho-Rusyn becasue that is what it should be about and (2) that it is currently too broad because it not only covers Carpatho-Rusyns but also covers Pannonian Rusyns and the American diaspora. You cannot argue that this article should not exist because another article with another name and on a differently focused topic should exist. Rather, maintain Ruthenians as the very broad article that it is, maintain this as an article dealing with Rusyns proper, and, if the material warrants it, then split out from this one a separate article for only Carpatho Rusyns. μηδείς ( talk) 05:43, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Current dispute as to whether to include Lemkos in Poland as part of the general population of Carpatho-Rusyns here. The Polish census lists Rusyns and Lemkos as separate ethnic groups, to which I contest, that to combine them into a single entity constitutes original research. According to Magocsi, Rusyns in Subcarpathia self-identify as Ukrainians today (as with the rest of Ruthenians who now identify as Ukrainian) but in Poland, Rusyns changed their identity to Lemkos.
by the twentieth century, in particular its second half, the historic names Rusyn/Rusniak were replaced by others, such as Ukrainian in Soviet Transcarpathia and the Presov Region of Slovakia, or Lemko in Poland.
As such, if one were to "undo" this change in identity to make Lemkos constitute Rusyns, you would also have to do the same for all Rusyns who now consider themselves Ukrainian. Which is original research as far as Wiki is concerned, as he also says:
some people will say that Rusyn is simply the older historic name for Ukrainian, and that Lemko is a regional name of Ukrainian, while others are convinced that the names Lemko or Rusniak are regional forms for Rusyn which, in turn, designates a people that is distinct from the Ukrainian and every other surrounding nationality.
Based solely on statistics in a census, how are we in a position to decide whether Rusyns should be lumped in with Ukrainians, or Lemkos with Ukrainians; or if Lemkos should be lumped in with Rusyn based on the premise of "some people say it"--
Львівське (
говорити)
04:26, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Another
source,--
Львівське (
говорити)
04:55, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
By the early twentieth century the Rusyns living on the northern slopes of the Carpathians had given up their traditional ethnonym, Rusnak, for the name Lemko. As the Rusnaks north of the mountains adopted the new name Lemko, they also evolved from an ethnographic to an ethnonational group.
Whatever they call themselves, they speak the Rusyn language and are part of the Rusyn people. This not the Carpathian Ruthenia article it's the wider Rusyn article. Magocsi says 2/3 of Rusyns are of Lemko origin.
http://books.google.com/books?id=dbUuX0mnvQMC&pg=PA341&dq=magocsi+encyclopedia+lemko&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-J79UrHcMueusATbk4CICQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=magocsi%20encyclopedia%20lemko&f=false
The simple answer hear is to give the Polish census numbers for both groups per WP:ATTRIBUTE. According to the Lemko article, there are 6,000 full-blooded Lemkos, and 4,000 half blooded Polish, and 1,000 none-Polish Lemkos. I don't know if that should be counted as 6,000 Lemkos, the 11,000 total, or 6,000 + 5,000/2 = 8,500 Lemkos. For now I'll say 6,000. [1] μηδείς ( talk) 05:13, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Yes, simple solutions are always the best. Obviously, conflating this article in order to create one neat category with a corresponding single article ( what synth is not) must be the logical solution (!?) -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 05:50, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Lemkos, while they identify primarily as Lemkos, also generally consider themselves to be a subgroup of Rusyns. See for example here: [22] [23] or here [24] Ausir ( talk) 00:36, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
References
WARNING regarding Wiki naming policy for ethnic groups and self-identification Just a reminder of Wiki naming policy for ethnic groups: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(ethnicities_and_tribes) "Self-identification-How the group self-identifies should be considered. If their autonym is commonly used in English, it would be the best article title. Any terms regarded as derogatory by members of the ethnic group in question should be avoided." As noted by Paul Robert Magosci, there is an ethnic group known in English as Ruthenians, but which self identifies as Carpatho-Rusyns, or simply Rusyns. They do not self-identify as Ukrainians. In fact, they find the Ukrainian label offensive. Anyone refering to Carpatho-Rusyns as Ukrainians may result in complaints being lodged in the appropriate Wiki forums. 37.200.224.205 ( talk) 02:02, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
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@ Geohem: The paragraph, that starts from the sentence "Until the middle of the 19th century, ethnic Ukrainians referred to themselves as Ruthenians ("Rusyns" in Ukrainian, "Rutén" in Hungary)" need for a more general overview of how the term "Rusyn" from a common East-Slavic endoethnonym became the ethnonym of the small ethnic group. In my correction, sources were cited.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 12:19, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
all the Eastern Slavs up to the Baltic Sea not so long ago used "Rusyn" as endoethnonym-- this statement is false. 17th centrury is pretty long time ago. Staszek Lem ( talk) 21:28, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Comment This article is about modern ethnic group or Rusyns. How East Slavs were self-laming in the past belongs to article Ruthenians. Staszek Lem ( talk) 21:38, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Until the middle of the 19th century, ethnic Ukrainians referred to themselves.... So, the question how East Slavs were self-naming in the past belongs to this article. By the way, this statement is not confirmed by any sources, but I do not see any attempts to remove it. This is very similar to POV-pushing.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 22:00, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
i see in the article-- feel free to delete it. Staszek Lem ( talk) 22:07, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
So, the question how East Slavs were self-naming in the past belongs to this articleVery weak argument in wikipedia. At the very top of the article there is the disambiguation note about other uses of the term Staszek Lem ( talk) 22:07, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes, today Rusyns are subgroup of Ukrainianss, in majority view.- Perhaps, but this is not the only point of view. Now the article contains Lie by omission. Ukrainians called themselves Ruthenians? Oh sure, but not only they. As to a "majority view": "Rusyn <...> - any of several East Slavic peoples (modern-day Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Carpatho-Rusyns) [26].-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 07:05, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
There is WP:SYNTH happening on the the Ruthenians article. Would other editors knowledgeable in this area please take a look assist in clearing up the dispute on the article's talk page? Thank you. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 04:31, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
Русины, Рутены (нем. Russinen, Ruthenen) — употребляемое преимущественно поляками и немцами название русского населения австро-венгерских земель, в отличие от русских (русских подданных), причем название рутены — средневековое латинское название вообще русских, а Р. — неправильное образование множественного числа от единственного числа русин. Сами Р. зовут себя в единственном числе русин, во множественном числе — русскими, веру свою — русской, свой народ и язык — русскими. Р. живут по обоим склонам Карпат, в Галиции, Буковине и Венгрии, и принадлежат к южнорусской части русского племени, отличаясь от малорусов (украинцев) как особенностями языка, так и физическим складом и этнографическими признаками
Eng (my translation):
Rusyns, Ruthenians (German Russinen, Ruthenen) - used primarily by the Poles and Germans, the name of the Russian population of the Austro-Hungarian lands, in contrast to the Russian (Russian subjects), and besides the name Ruthenians - the medieval Latin name of all Russians, and R. - incorrect plural formation from an singular rusyn. R. call themselves in the singular rusyn, in plural - Russian, their faith - Russian, their people and language - Russian. R. live on both slopes of the Carpathians, in Galicia, Bukovina and Hungary, and belong to the South Russian part of the Russian tribe, differing from the Little Russians (Ukrainians) in their language, physical characteristics and ethnographic features
When is this name first attested in relation to them? -- Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii ( talk) 09:38, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
a solution has to be found - I have no problem with majority of your improvements - but identifying Rusyns of Transcarpathia as "Ukrainians" is heavily misleading (shall it be by good faith, or by negligence, or ny a non-precise source) earlier the 1930s' Ukrainist movement - that affected and was adopted only by the part of the population -. In Hungary (inluding Transcarpathia with or within) only the second half of the 20th century Ukrainians settled, until it was populated solely by Rusyns. The Ruthenians as an old term were not just used for Ukrainians and Belorussians, but Rusyns as well and even for Russians or all of he ancestors of these.
1. So it has to be also identified, the term Ruthenian were used for Rusyns as well (not just in the Austrian Empire, but officially in the Kingdom of Hungary)
2. Is not enough that "came to be associated primarily with those Ukrainians who lived under ... Trancarpathia", because mainly in was associated with the Rusyn population of Transcarpathia, the selective timeline the Ukrainian populations was missing (18th cent-1945), or being marginal (between 1930-1945 followers of the Ukrainist movement).
Please have in mind we should be totally neutral and not take sides or support even by mistake or negligence that Ukrainist idea that tries to deny the existence of the historical Rusyn people who never called them Ukrainians before, and not even today all of the accepted or adopted thhis ethnonym, this separate view (Rusyn vs. Ukrainian) identity and classification is identifed and mentioned without taking sides in all related articles.
Thus a proper copy-edit, rephrasing or supplement in the section and in the sentence is needed, otherwise there is no consesus for this addition justlike this. Thanky You( KIENGIR ( talk) 15:24, 22 June 2019 (UTC))
we as editors only cite what's said in RS-- Britannica is a fairly reliable source for you? "Rusyn <...> - any of several East Slavic peoples (modern-day Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Carpatho-Rusyns) [27]. And this has already been discussed earlier.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 22:22, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
Please note that I've reverted the article to an older, consensus variant prior the strange development of an anthropology section, as well as a DNA section.
Articles on far larger ethnic groups don't have 'anthropology' sections, and DNA/Genetics sections are approached with extreme caution. Wikipedia most certainly doesn't base a genetics section on a single research paper for various reasons, not the least of which is WP:COPYVIO.
While I can appreciate the desire to improve the article, improvements must be made following WP:CAREFUL: that is, BOLD is great, but caution is essential.
Before further development, could contributors please bring their thoughts and sources to the talk page and consult with other editors as to additions and changes to content. No editors WP:OWN any given article (and I'm directing ownership issues at myself here), but policy and guidelines exist for a reason. It's tempting develop an article giving it the gravitas one thinks is owed to the subject, but not at the price of overwriting it depending on SYNTH, not adhering to WEIGHT, and using the findings of a single report to create a contentious section. Ethnicity is a complex issue. Trying to simplify it by treating it as if there were easy markers by which an ethnic group could be identified is antithetical to Wikipedia's core policies.
I do think some valid improvements were made to the article, but I'd like to see the genetics section removed altogether for the time being (invoking COPYVIO and WP:CHERRY here). General removals and additions need to be discussed, as does the structure of the article. Thank you for discussing before editing. Iryna Harpy ( talk) 00:51, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
As far as I know, there is n no certainty where exactly the White Croats lived. I began to check the sources. The book of Sedov [2] says (mostly google-translate):
"In the historical literature there are many hypotheses and speculations regarding the localization of the place of residence of the “White Croats” from which the Dalmatian Croats came. Most researchers place these lands in the Czech Republic, since Konstantin Bagryanonny reports that they live "beyond Bagivaria" (Bavaria?), "On the other side of Turkia (Hungary), near Frangia (Franconia), and border on the Slavs - unbaptized Serbs." But this is the home of Czech Croats, who were well known both in Byzantium and in the Frankish kingdom in the 10th century. These Croatian lands, much more likely, were mistaken by the Byzantines for the ancient home of the Croatian tribe. Already V. Yagich argued that the Croats could not come to Dalmatia from the basin of Laba, they moved from more eastern regions, from the Vistula River and the Dniester. The researcher resolutely rejected the existence of Great Croatia in the north, considering it to be the fantasy of Constantin Porphyrogenitus [19].
At the same time, the message about White (or Great) Croatia as the ancient homeland of the Croats by other researchers was recognized as a reality. In particular, L. Niderle believed that Great Croatia was in the Carpathian region. The Arab authors of the 9th-10th centuries allegedly testify to its existence. (Slavic region Chordab, Chravat, Chrvat) [20]. In the scientific literature, attempts have been made to specify information about Greater Croatia. Thus, the Polish researcher E. Gaczynski believed that this Croatian community dates back to the 5th-8th centuries and occupied the space north of Carpathian Mountains, from the headwaters of the Oder in the west to Goryn in the east. He admitted that Horvath, the leader of the Alani detachment, ruled these lands as the governor of the Huns and after his death the term "Croats" formed from this anthroponym came into use among the local Slavs, becoming their ethnonym [21]. Other historians also placed White or Great Croatia there. F. Dvornik extended its territory to the upper Elbe in the west and to the Western Bug in the east."
Sedov himself concludes: "These hypothetical constructions are now of purely historiographic interest, since they do not find any confirmation in archaeological materials. On the basis of the latter, it is possible to assert with all certainty that the Croats began their history in the Ants environment, moved to the west from there, and divided into several groups, settled in various regions of the early medieval Slavic territory."
I think we can not refer to this book in support of this sentence: "The region of Ukrainian Carpathians (including Zakarpattia and Prykarpattia) since the Early Middle Age was inhabited by the tribes of White Croats."— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicoljaus ( talk • contribs) 07:24, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
The lack of term "White" does not matter as the White Croats mean all those who did not live in the South.The question of who the White Croats are is too complicated. In the book of Mayorov there is an example, when White Croatia is located in the South, in Dalmatia: "Croatia Alba, que et inferior Dalmatia dicitur". May be it will be better to replace "tribes of White Croats" (no one knows who they were and where they lived) by "tribes of ancient Croats" (there is no discrepancy in the sources)-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 14:19, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Sedov in the next sentence rejects that opinion you push forward, mentions the issue on the existence of White Croatia and that it more probably existed in the East, near rivers Vistula and Dniester as well the Carpathians.You are mistaken. Sedov doesn't mentioned Carpathians at this "next sentence" and this is not his own opinion. His opinion is: "These hypothetical constructions are now of purely historiographic interest, since they do not find any confirmation in archaeological materials. On the basis of the latter, it is possible to assert with all certainty that the Croats began their history in the Ants environment, moved to the west from there, and divided into several groups, settled in various regions of the early medieval Slavic territory." Did you hear that the Antes lived in the Carpathians? Me not.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 20:00, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
I've found quite a good article by FRANCESCO BORRI who makes a conclusion: "The only thing we can say with some degree of certainty is that, according to Constantine Porphyrogenitus, White Croatia was: ‘somewhere in Central Europe near Bavaria, beyond Hungary and next to the Frankish empire’" [3] Why he did not mention "Ukrainian Carpathians (including Zakarpattia and Prykarpattia)", I am surprised.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 07:50, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
I submitted a request here: Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Rusyns#White_Croats-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 08:48, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
@
TaivoLinguist: Hello. Could you expand your idea from the description of
this edit in more detail? I agree with the message, but you removed references to recent works (books of 1995 and 2011, written by recognized experts, as well as the modern encyclopedia of 2013). I would prefer to remove redundant references to the Great Russian Encyclopedia, which is known for copy-paste from Wikipedia, as well as link to the article of Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine, which was written in 1985 and contains obvious errors (which are discussed in sources you deleted).--
Nicoljaus (
talk)
14:03, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
the most common name to differentiate all these tribes from the Croats (nation) in the Balkans.The repetition of the same talking points, not supporting them with anything, is a form of a disruptive behavior.
updated and revised in the last ten years? I do not see any differences.
I highly doubt you are capable to differentiate reliable from unreliable source.you are constantly at the bottom of the pyramid. If you really see the problem in my edits - open the topic in the appropriate noticeboards. Let's see whose behavior will be considered destructive in fact.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 07:54, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Because that's the general scholarship name for them to not mistake them with the Croats in the Balkans.Well, I will ask only one last time - to provide a reliable source that describes the situation in this way. What I have seen so far suggests otherwise: for example, "it is mistake to call the Carpathian Croats “white”" or "“White Croats” are localized in Serbia" etc. If you ignore this request again and continue the blanc reverting without any search for consensus, I will go to ANI.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 13:41, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
References