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I think you can modify the "Conflict ongoing" tag. [1]
Russia and Georgia have agreed a truce brokered by French President Nicolas Sarkozy, and have approved the principles of a full peace plan.
The only intelligent thing I heard about Russia and Georgia in about a week. It's over, and let's hope it stays that way. Qubix 82.208.174.72 ( talk) 22:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian Defence Ministry said it has no plans to attack Tbilisi. "We do not have and have never had any plans to advance on Tbilisi," cites Interfax agency a source in Russian command. Also Russian troops reportedly left Senaki military base. Russia says no plan to attack Tbilisi Российские войска покинули район города Сенаки
Seems to be getting over. Russia needs not Tbilisi, Georgia retreats from Tskhinvali. Garret Beaumain ( talk) 20:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
AP report from yahoo.com [ [3]]
An advance and claimed withdrawal from Senaki.
"Russian armored personnel carriers moved into Senaki, a town 20 miles inland from Georgia's Black Sea port of Poti, Lomaia said. Russian news agencies late Monday cited the Defense Ministry as saying the troops had left Senaki "after liquidating the danger," but did not give details."
Russians holding on to Zugdidi, and Abkhaz militias move into Kurga (in Georgia proper, not the disputed Kodori Gorge).
"Russian forces also moved into Zugdidi, near Abkhazia, and seized police stations, while their Abkhazian allies took control of the nearby village of Kurga, according to witnesses and Georgian officials."
"In Zugdidi, an AP reporter saw five or six Russian soldiers posted outside an Interior Ministry building."
Similar information from cnn.com [ [4]]
Similar information about Senaki citing the Russian ministry of Defence from lemonde.fr [ [5]]
"Des soldats russes sont entrés en territoire géorgien, près de Senaki, pour empêcher de nouvelles attaques géorgiennes contre l'Ossétie du Sud, annonce le ministère de la défense russe." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.44.195 ( talk) 20:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Another French source (Le Figaro) giving the same information. [ [6]]
"L'armée russe a occupé une base militaire près de la ville de Senaki «pour empêcher de nouvelles attaques géorgiennes en Ossétie du Sud». Dans la soirée, le ministère russe de la défense assure que les soldats se sont retirés de cette ville. Un haut responsable géorgien indique également que les forces russes occupent Gori, la plus grande ville géorgienne près de l'Ossétie du Sud, ce que le ministère russe de la défense dément. Des soldats russes sont également entrés dans la ville de Zougdidi, près de l'Abkhazie, selon un photographe de presse sur place."
Russia Warns Baltics, Poland To Pay For Georgia Stance. 132.68.248.44 ( talk) 20:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
As the conflict grows older, the difference in losses reported by one side and those acknowledged by the other seems to grow. This is a phenomenon common in warfare; usually the truth lies somewhere in between.
In order to clearly distinguish between figures claimed by side A and those acknowledged by side B, I've modified the Casualties and Losses section. For both sides, it now contains separate sections on how many casualties the side has admitted to have suffered and on how many casualties the other side claims it has inflicted.
I feel that this is the best way to keep the figures from being mixed up and to prevent edit-wars. Please comment if you disagree, otherwise please add as much sourced information as possible.
Whoops, too fast. That was me. Tritec ( talk) 20:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Question: What do we do about the 21 dead reported earlier and the 18 dead reported today? Is it 39 that we can report for Russia as confirmed, since they had confirmed 21 at one point then 18 at another without much clarification? 70.131.218.57 ( talk) 20:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
And how would a new member do so since this article is, rightly. semi-protected?
ShaneMarsh (
talk) 20:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
God damn, no. The fog of war and/or propaganda war is so great they even don't know/don't want to reveal their own losses, and you want to publish also their enemy losses claims? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 20:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Reading some of the debates ongoing around references I thought I'd do some analysis of the sources by country. As of 2:00pm PST there were 274 reference links and they break down as follows:
Macutty ( talk) 21:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Upon returning to the White House from China George Bush has given a speech setting out that the US interpretation of the Russian motive is regime change and their intelligence indicates Russian planes are preparing to sortie a massive raid on the civilian Tblisi International Airport. He goes on to condemn attacks on communication infrastructure and repeats the previously stated US position that Russia should cease hostilities and withdraw to the August 6th lines. WatcherZero ( talk) 21:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I updated the 10 August emergency session of the United Nations Security Council section by substituting text from the UN transcript http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N08/455/78/PDF/N0845578.pdf?OpenElement. It is a very interesting transcript Jason3777 ( talk) 21:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
concerning the edit I made18:34, August 11, 2008 Jason3777 (Talk | contribs) (137,993 bytes) (→August 10: Georgia begins withdrawing from Tskhinvali: removed alleged "regime change" becauce not documented in state Russian source.) should read "stated". Sorry Jason3777 ( talk) 22:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to thank you Jason3777 for putting this here. It was a most informative and interesting read. A shame we can't just add the whole page as citation. 210.215.75.4 ( talk) 03:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Apparently I am not eligible to make any edits, but there were a few sentences / concepts that were worded in a confusing or improper manner. Can someone make these changes?
First, in the introduction: "The conflict began in August 2008; after declaring a ceasefire." This is not correctly punctuated. A dash may be more appropriate, but a semi-colon suggests that a new idea was begun that requires both a subject and verb. The second problem with this is that it is a confusing statement. Usually cease-fires require conflict to have alread ensued. What cease-fire is being referred to? If it is referring to the conflict in the early 90's, the phrase could probably be completely removed as previous sentences implied that those conflicts had been at least temporarily resolved. If the phrase is retained, however, it should be clarified what the cease-fire refers to.
The second, also in the introduction: "South Ossetian leadership claimed that the Georgian side begun shooting first." This statement already has the problem of being uncited, but the word "begun" is not the correct word. Either "began" or "had begun". As it stands, it is grammatically incorrect.
The final oddity is referred to above over the dispute regarding occupation of Gori: "According to Georgian officials, the city of Gori, 40 miles (64 km) from the Georgain capital, has fallen to Russian forces.[163] Russian's defense ministry denied the information, claiming there were no russian troops on Gori. [164]. Also, this was confirmed by Reuters reporters James Kilner and Margarita Antidze, who said that there is no any "trace of troops or military vehicles, it is absolutely deserted".[165] This has also been stated by the British Foreign Secretary who said '...British representatives on the ground and the media have reported that Russia has extended the fighting today well beyond South Ossetia, attacking the Georgian port of Poti ,and the town of Gori, ... I deplore this.'[166]" The way it is currently phrased ("This has also been stated...") implies that the statement from the UK should reinforce the assertion that Gori was not, in fact, occupied. The statement made seems to do quite the opposite. The person cited only makes the statement that his sources said that Gori had been occupied and that he does not approve. It does not back-up the Reuters report, as the text currently implies that it should. The text should be changed accordingly.
Could an editor that is able to make these changes please do so? Thanks.
BobertWABC (
talk) 21:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I just created a new map showing the development of the first few days of the conflict / war ... however you want to call it. It may be interesting for the article. -- DanteRay ( talk) 22:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The map is not written in proper English (for example, "Chechenia"). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 23:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It seems you're marking areas which have merely been bombed as "fights" but you haven't actually marked the bombing campaign against the Kodori Gorge, which doesn't make a lot of sense.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 23:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Okay, Chechnya is finally written correctly; I added that the troups came through the Roki Tunnel; -- DanteRay ( talk) 15:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I have a few comments, suggestions: major raids in the Kodori Valley in Abkhazia were or are being carried out by air, so instead of tanks the arrow should show airplanes. The tanks were deployed in Ochamchira port town of Abkhazia by a carrier ship, which then entered Zugdidi and went to Senaki. So ideally, another arrow should show tanks entering from the sea. Also, I haven't heard about any fighting or explosiions near Gagra (north of Abkhazia). If that's verified, ok, but otherwise that mark needs to be removed. Thanks. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 14:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Guys, pls correct the map [7] - Russian forces approached Tzkhinvaly by Dzari's road, which goes around as the main road (through Kurta and Tamarasheni) was controlled by Georgian militaries and they wouldn't be able to get to the city. 87.236.29.60 ( talk) 21:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)Al
Georgia Conflict Alert: Russia must withdraw its troops from Georgia
Tbilisi/Brussels, 11 August 2008: Russia must cease its advances within Georgia, immediately withdraw its troops to its peacekeeping positions, and restore the status quo ante.
During the course of today, 11 August 2008, Russian troops, backed by its air force, advanced deep into Georgia, well beyond the boundaries of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and apparently took control of the Georgian towns of Gori, Senaki and Zugdidi, among others.
Russia has no legitimate security interests justifying its advance beyond the boundaries of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. It is not performing a peacekeeping function or defending the rights of Russian citizens. Today’s advances and attacks raise real doubts about Russia’s intentions with respect to Georgia. These steps appear aimed at undermining Georgia’s capacity to function as a state.
Russia must immediately agree to the ceasefire proposal made by European Union and Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) envoys, the French and Finnish Foreign Ministers Bernard Kouchner and Alexander Stubb, which Georgia has signed.
The international community, and particularly the United States and the European Union, must make it unequivocally clear that Russia’s aggression is a flagrant violation of international law and undermines its legitimacy as a defender of that law. It must also declare that failure to withdraw its troops back to South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and then to Russia, will be strongly condemned and will significantly damage Russia’s relations with the U.S. and EU. Western heads of state should deliver this message forcefully to the Russian president and prime minister, including in person in Moscow.
Once hostilities have ceased and withdrawal occurred, negotiations should take place between Russia, Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia to sign a non-resumption of hostilities text and agree to a revised peacekeeping arrangement and new negotiations format. All parties must secure the return of displaced persons and provide humanitarian assistance. [8]-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 22:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The BBC's latest headline report on the conflict (last updated 21:39 GMT on August 11th) cites a Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman as saying that Russian troops were never in Gori: The conflict over South Ossetia also appeared to have widened when Georgia accused Russia of capturing the town of Gori, just 76km (47 miles) from Tbilisi.
"This is a total onslaught," Georgia's National Security Council secretary Alexander Lomaia told the AFP news agency, adding that Georgian troops were pulling back to defend Tbilisi.
Russia's defence ministry quickly issued a statement rejecting the claim, saying there were none of its troops in Gori.
Later, a spokesman for the Georgian interior ministry told the BBC that there had never been Russian troops in Gori.
He said the Russian Army had taken up a position just outside the town after destroying a military base and admitted the Georgian army had fled the area without putting up a fight.
Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze then said.... and the article goes to outline more claims and counterclaims.
For the whole article see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm
Perhaps this should be added to the section on the article about the claims surrounding Gori? 72.27.174.160 ( talk) 22:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I believe the Russians have occupied the area around Gori and the suburbs. Thats from local Georgians I have talked to. Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 23:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
this again and again and again - while there's actually NOTHING about "180" in the article (not even to mention anything about "180 soldiers killed at Tskhinvali" - plus, even few hours ago Georgia was saying it didn't lost that many soldiers TOTAL).
I told him. In the talk page, in the edit summary, even in the article's body. He knows. And he did it anyway. Can he be blocked from editing at least one article? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 22:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
As former citizens of the now non-existent USSR, many residents of South Ossetia chose to exercise their right to Russian citizenship (citiation to the relevant 1991 Russian law provision needed) in order to obtain Russian social security benefits, which Georgia did not provide to the separatist region. (Lennie 00:00 GMT 12.08.08)
Can we agree on one HERE?
From my side - the short-lived ceasefire was uniliteral Georgian (it should be noted), so the rebels technically couldn't broke it, as they were not binded by any agreements. (it's kinda like the later Georgian uniliteral ceasefires/ceasefire offers, all ignored by Russia.) Btw, Georgia said 10 Georgians civilians and peacekeepers were killed in the alleged initial rebel attack. [10] -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 23:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
(I am sorry, I don't know how to add to the above section) - Since it is alleged that Russia "handed out" passports to create a pre-text for invading Georgia, the position should be clarified in this article. The issue of passports is so often quoted in the media that it should be given appropiate space here. There is a good reference to it in the interview with Foreign MInister of Russia Lavrov, which can be found here: http://www.ln.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/f68cd37b84711611c3256f6d00541094/f87a3fb7a7f669ebc32574a100262597?OpenDocument (Lennie, 00:36 GMT 12.08.08)
A bit too long a Separate Article called Humanitarian impact of the 2008_South_Ossetia_war Could help cut the length down. ARBAY TALKies 23:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It isn't quite August 12 yet, but there is information posted as of now under the Aug 12 heading, but then again, it depends on your time zone. Should the article's timeline use UTC dates? -- Josephdurnal ( talk) 23:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Which is it? The lede says that it began on 7 August. Then it says it began on 8 August. Is this a local time/UTC discrepancy? -- Elliskev 23:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Rebels allegedly "broke" the small-level conflict ceasefire (which was Georgian uniliteral) on August 7 and on the same day Georgian artillery started firing back. On the early hours of August 8 the Georgians launched a barrage on the rebel capital, and at dawn the ground offensive. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 23:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm not fond of watching over american elections, but it is somewhat related:
John McCain's top foreign-policy adviser, Randy Scheunemann, is a leading expert on U.S.-allied Georgia -- and was a paid lobbyist for the former Soviet republic until March, in the run-up to what has become a major battle between Georgia and Russia.
Democratic rival Barack Obama's presidential campaign was quick to try to paint Mr. Scheunemann's dual roles as a conflict of interest after Sen. McCain swiftly took Georgia's side in the dispute, and cited it as evidence that Sen. McCain is "ensconced in a lobbyist culture," as Obama spokesman Hari Sevugan told reporters over the weekend.
McCain may lose some points and Obama win some. Does it fit "International reaction", perhaps?
Captain Obvious, please be polite and don't simply remove what you don't like. I suppose it may be useful information for article and perhaps even more articles in Wikipedia. Garret Beaumain ( talk) 00:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
July 31 was ended "Immediate Response" NATO training at Vaziani Military Base (near Tbilisi), with 1000 US military specialists (from United States Army Europe, 3rd Battalion, 25th Marine Expeditionary Unit, 1st Battalion 121 Infantry Regiment Georgian National Guard (Atlanta, Georgia) and 5045th General Support Unit.) Ru magister ( talk) 00:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
If it wouldn't be a problem - and I realise the situation is very fluid - could somebody please create a map showing the portions of Georgia under Russian occupation? Thanks! Canadian Bobby ( talk) 00:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war#Number_of_Georgian_refugees for example. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 00:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"The European Union and the United States expressed a will to send a joint delegation to try to negotiate a cease-fire.[31" makes them all look completely neutral, while in fact the Western European countries and the United States condamned Russia in many, many often really sharp statements (which of course Russia all ignored, but it's another thing), which here are not represented even at International reaction to the 2008 South Ossetia war. They also took some actual if sometimes pactically symbolic action (besides stuff like Ukraine closing Crimea ports after Russian navy leaves or US airlifting Georgian soldiers back from Iraq, for example Poland gave Georgia the Polish president's own server to break the information blockade). But instead of the condemnation and the calls for Russia to AGREE to ceasefire, it's:
On August 10, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said the silence of Western nations during Georgia's initial incursion into South Ossetia "raises very serious questions about sincerity and their attitude towards our country," and also accused Western media of a reporting bias and lack of objectivity.[247] He ruled out peace talks with Georgia until it pulled back its forces beyond the borders of South Ossetia and signed a legally binding pact renouncing the use of force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another breakaway territory of Georgia. Moscow has deployed warships off the Georgian coast to prevent the smuggling in of arms and other military supplies.[248]
in the section "Demands to end conflict" (about half of it). What the hell? Can it get any more biased?
Look at this:
U.S. President George W. Bush urged Russia on Monday to end its armed conflict with Georgia after Moscow's forces advanced deeper into the territory of its pro-Western neighbor, ignoring Western pleas to halt.
"Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century," Bush said.
"The Russian government must reverse the course that it appears to be on...," he added, urging Russia to agree to a ceasefire offer by Georgia. [15]
A difference? An actual "demand to end conflict" instead of (for whatever reason) the Russian whining about the western "bias and lack of objectivity" in the section titled "Demands to end conflict"?
The article is lacking so many things I won't even even try to list them all now. The intro should be rewritten and updated. The "combatant reaction" section should be SERIOUSLY cleaned up. Lots and lots of stuff.
If you don't want to get "into detail" why so much focus on Russia's POV and what they think about the third party actions, instead of writing on these actual actions? (Like "Five liberal leaders from central and eastern Europe -- Poland, Ukraine and the three Baltic states -- planned to visit Tbilisi in a show or support for Saakashvili." from the same article). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 01:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Did I mention most of this stuff here is also either badly written or appears to be just copy/pasted randomly? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 01:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
There are major ground battles with Russia and Geogria in central and eastern Geogria, why they are missing? Is it because the name of the war is "South Ossetia" and the battle far from South Ossetia are excluded?-- Kittyhawk2 ( talk) 01:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Under August 10th actions, the following paragraph appears:
On August 10, at around 3:20 p.m. UTC, Georgia said that they ordered a ceasefire, and offered to start talks with Russia over an end to hostilities in South Ossetia.[138] Russia confirmed receiving the offer but said that "the Georgian side has not stopped military actions in South Ossetia, Georgian troops continued shelling."[139]
Source 138 is down, while 139 is this: [16] Unfortunately, a Google translation of 139 seems to directly contradict rather than support the information we have in this paragraph of the Wikipedia article. I do not have perfect trust in Google translation, so it may only be a translation issue. I would welcome other sources for this paragraph, and if several users all agree that no other sources are forthcoming and 139 is opposition to the paragraph then I suggest it be pulled. Christiangoth ( talk) 01:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"The MID (Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs) confirms that a cease-fire note has been delivered to the Russian embassy in Tbilisi, but they point out the continued military operations by Tbilisi in Southern Ossetia. 'Such a note does indeed exist' a source from RF MoFA told Interfax on Sunday evening. At the same time, according to him 'the Georgian side did not cease military operations in Southern Ossetia, Georgian troops continue shelling'. Another source in Russian MoFA remarked also that the statements of the Georgian side about stopping the military operations and about withdrawal of their forces from the zone of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict do not correspond to reality." 132.68.248.44 ( talk) 02:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I think these articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Kodori_Gorge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_10_August_2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tskhinvali http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war
Should all be comnined in one article Russo-Georgian War of 2008 or Russia-Georgia War of 2008.-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 20:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Vitaly Churkin, Russian Representative in UN, declared to journalist that Russia will not accept the resolution on South Ossetia, prepared by France. It is not exactly sure when Churkin had made the statement - before or during negotiations over the resolution. The document proposes an immediate cease-fire, and restoring the territory of Georgia as it was before the begining of the confronations. [191]
Should be "confrontations" I guess. Maybe somebody who can edit the article might change that? OelnJa ( talk) 01:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The separatist government in South Ossetia is funded by Russia. Two-thirds of their budget is supplied by Moscow. Gazprom, which is state-controlled, has made investments worth hundreds of millions of dollars in South Ossetia. These facts need to be included in the background section to explain the relationship Russia has with the separatists.
Currently the article claims that South Ossetia is de facto independent and that Russia plays the role of peacekeeper. Both of these are contentious claims and are misleading without clarifying the dominant role Russia has in South Ossetia and how dependent the separatists are on Moscow.-- Kelstonian ( talk) 01:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Dear Biophys, I tried to find Russian sources for the sake of neutrality. Here they are:
Morozov - http://www.ossetia.ru/news/ur-mor
Lunev - http://www.uralweb.ru/news/n328942.html
Barankevich - http://www.utro.ru/articles/2005/01/18/397255.shtml
Mindzaev - http://www.lenta.ru/lib/14190856/
-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 03:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I will remove this statement
The separatist government in South Ossetia is funded by Russia. Two-thirds of their budget is supplied by Moscow. Gazprom, which is state-controlled, has made investments worth hundreds of millions of dollars in South Ossetia.
until the proper evidence is provided.
A citation from one article by Reuters without an author (!), not analytical, without reeferences, can not serve as a reliable source for the Background section. Sounds like Yellow Pages. I can put it like this:
Some sources claim that the South Ossetian separatist government is "dependent on Russia", although these sources do not provide any reliable evidence or reference. These sources also say that the South Ossetian separatist government "is funded by Moscow", which "supplies two thirds of their annual budget" and the Russian state-controlled gas company Gazprom has made "investments worth hundreds of millions of dollars" in South Ossetia.
-- Victor V V ( talk) 09:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I just wonder why no one else paid attention to the significant fact that the "source" lacks references and in fact serves merely as an anti-Russian propaganda. Above mentioned Yulia Latynina is more known as novelist.
By parity, all who try to trace the funding issues forget to mention that Saakashvili and his ministers directly receive salary from Washington - dozens of articles can be provided as sources. Do you need this?-- Victor V V ( talk) 16:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Why are South Ossetia and Abkhazia labelled as "secessionists" under the belligerents heading in the infobox? They both have a constitution, their own elected president and parliament. Yes, they are unrecognized breakaway states but the fact remains: they are sovereign enough to run their own government. -Timberlax 01:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The best thing to do is to add "secessionists governments". Robin Hood 1212 ( talk) 21:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"The full independence of South Ossetia was supported by 99% of South Ossetia's civil population according to the South Ossetian independence referendum with 95.2% of the population participating in the referendum." - this sentence is misleading. It should be mentioned that 99% of South Ossetia's current ethnically Ossetian civil population supported it, but not the total, because ethnically Georgians (earlier mentioned comprising 20% of total pop.) have either boycotted it or were unable to vote. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 02:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Recommended reading on the historical background: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4498709.ece
When editing do not move one's text from one section to another. That will mislead the reader or create confusion-- Kittyhawk2 ( talk) 04:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"He looked up and ran like crazy, his body guards chased him down and tackled him down and covered him with a vest "Bronijelet"."
http://www.1tv.ru/news/ (3 movie on the left)
I think that this is important to mention that Georgian President loose his minds.
It was agreed that Russian dead are 21+18=39 It was changed to 39, but changed back. Could it be changed to 39 again, if not, then why not?
Your comment is an example of what is wrong with this article. Before the war is even over, you want all the details about the dead. You also want to publish details about what happened. Why not wait until the facts come out instead of speculating. If we had to believe everything on TV the whole of Georgia would be under Russian communist rule and the whole of Ossettia would have been wiped out. Just have patience. 196.38.218.24 ( talk) 14:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)DawnTreader
Apparently, the UN has accepted Russia has invaded Georgia Proper, can we put this in there? Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 02:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Agreed with Kittyhawk2. With a standing army of over 1 million i would think the international community would be very friggin carefull on how they worded something like that. A confirmed invasion would mean that the UN would have an obligation to take more action than they currently are. Even if we all realise that this is an invasion (not saying it is), the UN would dance around actually announcing it untill they had absolutely no other option.... I think we're all agreed this could get much messier than it already is. 210.215.75.4 ( talk) 03:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Here is the source http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_re_eu/un_georgia_russia Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 06:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Please put into article that it was Russia who requested security council to hold emergency session on the 7th of August after Georgia started the attack, but before Russian troops were moved into the S.Ossetia. Source - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7546639.stm Lucidlook ( talk) 08:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed that thew stated number of recalled troops from Iraq is listed as 1,000 and lacks a citation. In fact, 2000 troops have finished being airlifted back by the U.S. as reported by the Pentagon (see Yahoo: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_russia_georgia ) Just an fyi for anyone interested in updating the information. 207.7.179.62 ( talk) 03:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, we have Russia And Georgia Giving Opposite Reports, and the majority of the news are following with georgia. But, are they right? We can't really trust even foreign news because either they are following the russian statement of the georgian statements, so, who are we using, really, the only people that can be trusted is anybody who has contacts on the inside, and officals not in the sides.
The question is, canm we trust the sources to be true?-- Jakezing ( talk) 03:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
oops i forgot the squiggly things Andrew's Concience ( talk) 05:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that the external links contain two websites relating to the Polish President. http://www.president.pl/x.node?id=479 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_Republic_of_Poland . Isn't this confusing. What do these two Polish links have to be with the Georgian - South Ossetian conflict? werldwayd ( talk) 05:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I took the liberty of editing out the Polish website because if was generally for the president with only a hint of Georgia info. If need be that article should be sourced for something within this wikisite, but the whole Polish website as an external link is unnecessary. I also added the Georgian Presidency. And just for reference there already is an external links section in the archives: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war/Archive_5#external_links Lihaas ( talk) 06:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"On request of the President of Georgia, President of the Republic of Poland has provided the website of the President of Poland for dissemination of information. [...] Communiquès have been published on the website www.president.pl without any changes in their content introduced by us, in the form delivered by the sender." Cyberwarfare or not, this assistance is a real event and much more than "only a hint of Georgia info". Therefore the references should stay. Also, the Georgian infos from this website may be useful for Wikipedia as a source (at least temporary) on the Georgian version of events, e.g. this Timeline by 11th of August 19.30. The official website of the President of Georgia is not accessible at the moment, contrary to the "perfectly working" claim above. 132.68.72.110 ( talk) 11:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Please do not place Vostok, Zapad and Spetsnaz of 45th Regiment under any other unit except GRU itself. GRU is under direct commandment of Russian General Staff, it's submission order is not geographically based. Vostok and Zapad do not belong to North Caucasian Military district, nor to 58th Army or any other. 45th Regiment does not commanded by Moscow Military District commanders. Etc. Let's keep that in fact. Placing they under any other Russian units is big mistake. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 06:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Please add reference to a Wall Street Journal article by Saakashvili and its discussion in the Opinion Journal Forum there: http://forums.wsj.com/viewtopic.php?t=3644 —Preceding unsigned comment added by ACrush ( talk • contribs) 06:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
«Russian paramilitary troops cross into Georgian territory» under photo with BRDM-2 on it is completely wrong. Russia don't have any paramilitary units. (06:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC))
Russia has begun carrying out air defense drills in southern Russia. [17] [18] JCDenton2052 ( talk) 07:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
This is a request to some more experienced Wiki editor: Please consider adding this information to this website, as I am not experienced. A Polish well known and respected war correspondent Wojciech Jagielski reached Tskhinvali two days ago, and, according to his report, the claims that Tskhinvali was totally devastated (which also appear on this Wiki website) are strongly overstated. In this article: http://wyborcza.pl/1,75477,5574360,Rosja_wziela_Osetie.html Jagielski writes (in original): "Widziane ze wzgórz na przedmieściach Cchinwali nie sprawia wrażenia zrównanego z ziemią. Wysokie domy w śródmieściu są osmalone dymem z pożarów, ale stoją. Niskie domostwa rozrzucone wśród zielonych, dojrzewających sadów na niewysokich wzgórzach są nietknięte, choć całkowicie wymarłe." My amateur's translation of this passage follows: "Tskhinvali seen from the hills at its suburbs, does not yield impression to be pulled down to earth. High houses in the city center are charred by smoke from fires, but they are standing. Low homesteads scattered around green, ripening orchards on low-lying hills are untouched, though totally emptied." Please whoever speaks Polish, confirm the veracity of this passage and my translation. I believe that this witness' report is very important for the verification of claims of the Russian and Ossetian side about an alleged complete demolition of Tskhinvali. ( 129.206.32.243 ( talk) 07:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC))
A reminder of Wikipedia's policy on controversial foreign-language sources:
Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. Where editors use a non-English source to support material that others are likely to challenge, or translate any direct quote, they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors.
WP:V is a core policy and material which fails to comply may be deleted. -- Folantin ( talk) 07:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) "Where editors use a non-English source to support material that others are likely to challenge..." That doesn't just refer to direct quotations. "Likely to challenge" - I see a lot of editors on these talk pages challenging such material. I'm certainly going to (if I can edit the page). I'm fed up with being hoodwinked by foreign language references which are (a) unreliable and (b) do not back the claims Wikipedia editors say they do. -- Folantin ( talk) 10:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Yesterday the entry was readable and informative. Today the grammar has degraded noticably. The failure to use the English language articles (a, an, the) is jarring to the reader. The Russian language doesn't use articles (from what Russians have told me), and it is obvious that people from the region are contributing when they simply lack the English skills to do so in a way that actually helps the reader. It is also obvious that the entry itself has become a propaganda war. I've never seen a page go so "bad" in a single day. It was so remarkable that it motivated me to finally create a username. Sorry to vent, but if this were the future of en.Wikipedia, it would be a short future indeed. This entry is a broth that could use a lot fewer cooks. Roger Midnight ( talk) 12:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Some stats. Total count of references is increased from yesterdays 255 to todays 293. Count of non-english sources isn't really changed (around 85) but today is less russian refs than yesterday, but there is some estonian, polish, french etc refs more . -- Zache ( talk) 15:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
This is not up to those writers to decide who is accurate and who is inaccurate. This is up to reader to decide. Most Reader cannot decide it when it is minority Language. I don't mind personally if it is Chinese, how about you?This is not about edit war, think about it.-- Kittyhawk2 ( talk) 13:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The article size is 150kb now, and this section is quite big alone. I think we should leave the key points in there, and split the rest off to new articles, i.e. Humanitarian impact of the 2008 South Ossetia war in South Ossetia (not a good title name I know, but we can discuss that). D.M.N. ( talk) 07:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I will remove the map from the article. First of all, it's in Polish. Secondly, it's strongly POV. The title states "Russian aggression against Georgia" Óðinn ( talk) 07:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Naurmacil removed my previous edit and explained: "remove war propaganda - a UK source claims they're fighting propaganda. What makes you think the UK source isn't propaganda itself? It's unlikely, but it's purely POV."
So what is not a propaganda? However, please notice that both sides accuses "the other side" of using propaganda. So it is clear that at least one side uses propaganda, then it is enough to talk about a propaganda war. In addition it was UK website of Reuters. Reuters is not a reliable source? Please answer. I decided to rewrite it a bit and added again.
Besides, it would be great to extend the 'information warfare' paragraph because today it is almost as important as real warfare. Kieraf ( talk) 16:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
One more note to Propaganda Section. Georgian President Saakashvili is often appealing to Georgian in English, while the only official language in Georgia is Georgian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vadimkaa ( talk • contribs) 23:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
E verybody is denouncing Russia in this war, worth mentioning the intro?? It's blatantly obvious that if we had to shun aynbody here, it's unarguably Russia. The rest of the world can see this, that's why they're denouncing Russia. Should we include the notable opposition to Russia in this war in the intro or no? Hellothar999 ( talk) 04:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Some info from http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/200881241938917173.html sources for the rest will likely pop up on some Web news in the near future. The general picture is one of calm in the center, heat in the west.
The BBC is reporting now that President Medvedev has ordered an end to the Russian "operation" in Georgia...that almost certainly does not signal an intention to pull out of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, but perhaps may indicate that there is no intention to press further into Georgia "proper?" See link: BBC article —Preceding unsigned comment added by The paccagnellan ( talk • contribs) 09:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Someone can add this stuff to the ceasefire section if seems relevant. Lihaas ( talk) 10:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The question is whether there ever was any plan to press into Georgia "proper". As it seems at present, no, there wasn't. Russian troops are basically idling in most places of the frontline since 20 hours or so, and the "taking" of Poti and Senaki were actually raids by marine/airborne commandos (at least for the latter also confirmed by Tbilisi, so I guess it's legit). Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 14:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
When discussing Abkhazia, please distinguish between Russian forces and Abkhazian ones. They have an army in their own right. For example, Russia did not send troops to Kadori, the Abkhazians did. Thanks 196.38.218.24 ( talk) 14:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC) DawnTreader.
The leader of Abkhazia claims two units of 250 Abkhazia soldiers are fighting to take the gorge backed by artillery and jets of the Abkhazia airforce, Abkhazia does not have an airforce and earlier claims of it shooting down Georgian unmanned drones a few weeks ago with traning fighters were shown to be the Russian Airforce planes. AP also widely reportedly claims to have counted 150 Russian armoured vehicles passing them towards the Abkhazia/Georgia border so conflict in that region appears to be ongoing. WatcherZero ( talk) 18:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
In 'August 12', near the end, there is an almost indecipherable paragraph about some Vostok commander, his brother, and a federal crime. Either this is not relevant or needs to be explained better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.225.236 ( talk) 11:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
A Dutch journalist named "Stan Storimans", working for the Dutch news program "RTL Nieuws", has been killed by a bombardment on Gori from the Russians.
Dutch source:
http://www.rtl.nl/(/actueel/rtlnieuws/binnenland/articleview/)/components/actueel/rtlnieuws/2008/08_augustus/12/binnenland/0812_0915_RTL-journalisten_slachtoffer_Gori.xml —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
ADB15 (
talk •
contribs) 11:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
There have been some dead in Gori due to incoming; that much seems reliable, but the details are very sketchy. At least two attacks on the people (military and civilians) that retreated from the town seem to be confirmed, one in the outskirts which was witnessed by an Al J reporter, one in town which was implicity mentioned as having been witnessed by reporters. Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 14:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm new to editing wikipedia articles, but here is an update. After seven hours of calls to the Russian Red Cross and local health care workers, I discovered that the reporters Winston Featherly and Temouri Kigouradze were transported to the Republican Hospital in Vladikavkaz, Russia. Mr. Featherly was shot in the leg and is in stable condition (I talked to him on the phone), but Mr. Kigouradze is unconscious and seriously wounded. The Russian military is guarding their hospital room, and has already "interrogated" both of them in a verbally aggressive manner.
abc Anchorage, Alaska —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anc abc ( talk • contribs) 11:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Under Aug 12 it says "The Foreign Minister of Italy, Franco Frattini announced that Italy was ready to send troops to South Ossetia if the European Union decides to intervene on Monday." What I believe it should say is "On Monday the Foreign Minister of Italy, Franco Frattini announced that Italy was ready to send troops to South Ossetia if the European Union decides to intervene." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 12:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Why does it say August 7th as the beginning when the fighting started on August 1st? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.139.138 ( talk) 13:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
«Casualties and losses
Claimed by Russia:
2 helicopters lost
1 missile boat sunk»
This is incomplete list. Read this: http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/11/su/ — «В Южной Осетии сбит грузинский Су-25» (Georgian Su-25 shot down in South Ossetia), near Eredvi. ( Namenlos Ein ( talk) 13:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC))
Russian Wikikpedia 2008 South Ossetia War 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 13:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia's military attacks on Georgia will damage both Moscow's and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's image abroad, Sweden's Foreign secretary and Chairman of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe Carl Bildt said in an interview with Swedish Radio on today. "Russia will sooner or later have to pay a high price for this," Bildt said in a telephone interview from the Georgian capital Tbilisi. "It changes Russia's image, there is no doubt about it," he said, adding that the attacks bore witness to "a strong element of revenge, particularly from Prime Minister Putin." [21] Hapsala ( talk) 14:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"2000 dead" is almost certainly an exaggeration. But the town was hit very hard and much of its infrastructure have been destroyed. As per AFP on-ground report, neither a hospital nor a graveyard deserving of such a name exist anymore.
(The AFP report is probably the best and most detailed and possibly the only somewhat relaible news from South Ossetia we have for the last 24 hours). To find the report, you might try searching for "AFP" and "Nodar" (the head doctor in town and quoted in the article.)
The following,
South Ossetia and Abkhazia are territories within Georgia that declared independence from Georgia and have been acting in a de facto independent capacity since the early 1990s. Neither state has been diplomatically recognised by any member of the United Nations. In the early 2000s, it was reported that 95% of the population in South Ossetia were Russian citizens.[25]
Doesn't mention that Russia was supporting the breakaways and that Georgia had been trying to consolidate the whole time. Don't know if this is too biased for intro. PlanetCeres ( talk) 14:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have the times and dates that these people became "Russian citizens"? Was this during the "Peacekeeper" time? 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 14:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
first hand, no source except russian army: Georgian forces that was delivered by US Air Forces to Tbilisi airport begans their new attack on Tskhinvali. Russian army checking and destroying Georgian artillery positions. toxygen ( talk) 14:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The fact that South Ossetia and Abkhazia both obtained Russian weapons during the "Peacekeeper" time is not mentioned early enough. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 14:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Yet another georgian webiste defaced and hacked. http://www.yandex.ge/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.64.206.162 ( talk) 15:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Look, it over now as this shows. So, change the "result" to "Georgian attack repulsed" and "Russians hold territory in Georgia proper". Sparten ( talk) 15:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Article on Russian Radio Liberty web-site about Human Rights Watch mission (Russian branch, three people) to South Ossetia: http://www.svobodanews.ru/Article/2008/08/12/20080812140328000.html
It says that it`s difficult in count civilian casualties because almost all ossetians man are participating in militia in one way way or another, so ossetians see no difference between militia man and normal citizen. So when there was militia man killed, he is always reported as civilian casualty. According to article, there are really lots of volunteers from North Ossetia and other parts of Russian Caucasus, including cossacks (they fight in ossetian militia clothes). Also noted that number of casualties by officials are probably overestimated (i.e. HRW mission found that only ~110 people were delivered to Java hospital starting from 8 august). 91.203.158.3 ( talk) 15:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
This has got to be the only place not calling this a Russia-Georgia war. There was an attack on Kodori Gorge and invasion of a large part of Georgia launched from Abkhazia. Continuing to call this the South Ossetia War ignores the very basic reality that this is a much broader conflict. While Russia does have separatist backers in the region those backers are fighting on Russia's side. The main fighting is between Russia and Georgia not only in South Ossetia but in various areas outside of South Ossetia. There is absolutely no justification for keeping this name.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 15:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Actualy most popular name used by the international sources should be chosen. If majority of world calls it "South Ossetia War" then that should be name, if most popular name is "Russo-Georgian War" then that should be chosen. Wikipedians can't invent their own names.-- Staberinde ( talk) 18:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
There are lots of, lots of changes to the lead here, leading to quite some edit warring and a lot of confusion. I don't think anyone of us want that. Plus, a lot of false information and sourceless material gets in there during the edit warring. I'm proposing here that a group of contributors here discuss and decide the composition of the whole lead and the warbox before making changes to the article, instead of edit warring over every single point. Here, for a start, the lead now:
The 2008 South Ossetia war is a military conflict that started on August 7, 2008 involving Georgia, South Ossetian and Abkhazian secessionists, and the Russian Federation. South Ossetia and Abkhazia are territories within Georgia that declared independence from Georgia and have been acting in a de facto independent capacity since the early 1990s. Neither state has been diplomatically recognised by any member of the United Nations. In the early 2000s, it was reported that 95% of the native population in South Ossetia adopted Russian citizenship.[25]On 7 August 2008, Georgia claimed that South Ossetian separatists had shelled Georgian villages in violation of a ceasefire. Georgia launched a military offensive to surround and capture the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali[26]. South Ossetia denies provoking conflict.[27][22]Russia moved its troops across the Georgian border, bringing ground forces into South Ossetia and Abkhazia and launching airstrikes on targets elsewhere in the country. The Russian government's stated justification for entering Georgian territory was to protect its own citizens and to prevent "a genocide by Georgian forces".[28][22] Georgia retreated from its offensive in South Ossetia due to Russian intervention (labelled as "Russian aggression.")[29] Separatists claim that Georgians killed at least 1000 South Ossetian people before the Russians intervened.[30] Russia responded to the charge in the United Nations, saying Georgia had started the war by conducting a military operation against South Ossetia.[22] Georgia insisted it had earlier been provoked by attacks by South Ossetian militants, which South Ossetia repeatedly denies.[27]Most international observers have called for a peaceful solution to the conflict[31] The European Union and the United States expressed a will to send a joint delegation to try to negotiate a cease-fire.[32] Russia ruled out peace talks with Georgia until the latter withdrew from South Ossetia and signed a legally binding pact renouncing the use of force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia.[33]Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said early on August 12 that he had ordered an end to military operations in Georgia.[34] Yet, fighting continued and Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze said that Russian jets were still targeting civilians.[35]
Here are some changes I propose:
I consider that POV and untrue. Sorry. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Sequence. Militants is right (depending) ... "all men are participating in S. Ossetia", Georgia began calling for cease Saturday. Still wish for better org. world opinion. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm saying it depends on what you refer and the time. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Disagree with conflict starting with "surprise attack".. There seems to have been a breakout of violence. (To be determined.) firstly. The word "surprise" is not justified. None of the participants had been "surprised". "Genocide" has no support outside Russia. Don't think we need both "genocide" sentence and the Russia thinks Georgia started. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Information Farware could be expanded or made as new article, as reader of both Russian and American news sites i can tell that its actually amazing to see the difference between what media spills on both sides. Or rather what media doesn't tell. For example all of United Nations emergency meetings were open yet almost no speeches were shown.
[22] Video and translated text of Vitaliy Churkin (Russian representative at UN) speech about whole Georgian-South Ossetian crisis.
Also it was reported and confirmed (yet never mentioned in western media i think) that Georgia captured two to four russian military officers including col. Igor Zinov, they were shot from TU-22P plane while conducting reconnaissance mission. Georgia claims that they were shot during bombing run on Gori. They are held in hospital in city called Gudushauri and they were shown laing on a beds and supposedly confirming what Georgia claims.
Well, there is this article from Radio Free Europe discussing the differences between the Western and Russian media coverages of the war. One excerpt:
“ | ‘Any such conflict affects the internal political situation by stimulating flag-waving patriotism,’ says Russian political analyst Fyodor Lukyanov. ‘This is particularly unpleasant, considering the extremely distressing anti-Georgia campaign we saw two years ago. If the armed conflict continues to escalate, I think the Russian leadership will have to take the utmost measures to prevent anti-Georgian agitation in the country.’ | ” |
“ | ‘Like any military man knows, and not only the military, when this kind of operation is under way, the overwhelming goal is not only directly in the conflict area, but sometimes beyond. Those goals, which used to support military action. This we have seen repeatedly in different situations. For example in the case of Kosovo, no special definitions itself is not limited to, but simply have to bomb the capital Belgrade and bridges on the Danube, which were in the hundreds of kilometres from the conflict zone.’ | ” |
-- 85.141.84.61 ( talk) 17:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that there is not any mention of the strategic position of S. Ossetia for Russian aggression. S. Ossetia provides a platform for invading the Georgian Heartland and protect the tunnel through the mountains. That those mountains would otherwise provide a natural defense for Georgia. Thus, the importance to both sides. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 14:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Intro or background... I'll go look. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 14:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia: Avoiding War in South Ossetia
Secition D, Pages 8-9
65.68.1.90 ( talk) 15:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Military importance of South Ossetia
65.68.1.90 ( talk) 15:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
July 26th - - Russia Profile - South Ossetia Looks North
Last two paragraphs of "Rising Tensions"
65.68.1.90 ( talk) 15:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia And Russia Collide In South Ossetia
Fourth paragraph from the bottom.
65.68.1.90 ( talk) 15:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
OK fine... You don't think Russia was trying to get a reaction from Gerogria? That's a POV to me. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Agree with NPOV while providing equal shares of relevant POV's. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Something is terribly wrong with the layout (at least for me). Could somebody please fix the infobox? -- 88.70.70.159 ( talk) 16:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} There needs to be a period after the sentence "Most international observers have called for a peaceful solution to the conflict" in the introduction. Spencer T♦ C 16:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Little is known about the involvement of the United States in this war. We know that the US Air Force delivered 2000 Georgian troops and equipment using C-17s, but there has to be more to it. Was cover provided by combat aircraft? Did Russia guarantee the safety of the aircraft and crews? I doubt the US would fly transport sorties without such assurances or/and air cover. I would like to know more, but most mainstream news sources aren't reporting much. -- Josephdurnal ( talk) 16:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no reference that the training received was for the intent of S. Ossetian conflict. And, there is reference to attempts to keep this training from being used against people within Georgia. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Less important then Russia providing weapons to the breakaways. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 17:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Pentagon officials would not say where the C-17s dropped off the Georgian troops or if they entered Georgian airspace, but Associated Press photos show the Georgian troops disembarking in Tblisi, Georgia’s capital.
It was reported that Russia called a ceasefire today, claiming it had accomplished its mission to protect its citizens and peace-keepers. Russia is reported to be in full control of S. Ossetia. 68.40.244.138 ( talk) 17:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC) (Mactruth)
Yes, it should be noted that three days after Georgia called for a ceasefire Russia began to call for one.
65.68.1.90 (
talk) 17:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Who broke what, where, and when is something to be determined later. Both, POV's should be given. And, given with less importance until more is known. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 17:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
There are numerous sources of conflict prior to that happening. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 17:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
AFP - US urges Russia to avoid provocation in South Ossetia
65.68.1.90 ( talk) 17:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The sentence,
Georgia then claimed that South Ossetian separatists had shelled Georgian villages in violation of a ceasefire.
implies that conflict had not been going on and that only after they moved in did they claim conflict had.
65.68.1.90 ( talk) 17:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
These mutual artillery duels have been constant occurrence during the last 4 years or so.
But there is another thing: what about the claims by Saakashvali that he was duped - that he was led to believe an unannounced(? do they have to announce these?) Russian "peacekeeper" convoy moving into S Ossetia on the 7th or early 8th was part of an invasion: Russia had quite obviously concentrated troops in N Ossetia since the start of April, with little effort to hide it from Georgian eyes (apparently Putin even told GWB in person, knowing one Texan who can't keep his mouth shut when he sees one), but took pains to deny any knowledge of the troop concentration to Georgian officials. And that then he broke and overreacted, ordering the Russians (a handful or two of BMPs) to be stopped with all force necessary, which was promptly done courtesy of a Georigan artillery unit? And that then there was a Russian bombing raid "into Georgia" (which according to Tbilisi includes S Ossetia of course, so if this artillery ambush happened, the "peacepkeepers" might just have wired for CAS which oh-so-conveniently was instantly available). In response to which he ordered the assault on Tskhanvali, in response to which a suspiciously ready-to-rumble Russian force waltzed in?
As The Independent puts it:
[Saakashvali] called Mr Putin's bluff, and Mr Putin, with some trademark harsh words, laid down a full house...
There was no real "provocation" in the shelling, that was just the usual bad blood. Has happened over and over again since the last ceasefire. But Putin seems to have invited Saakashvali to a fight and for reasons that are utterly baffling Saasakshvali took the bait. So basically Putin seems to have dangled something in front of Saakashvali's nose to see whether he understood it as Russian provocation, but if he did, things were arranged so that it would technically be a Georgian provocation (an unpremediated attack on "Russian peacekeepers" which it that's what happened probably were exactly that - why waste good troops?).
That is what I can glean from the cryptic comments of a Mr Saakashvali who was at that time (2 days ago) too close to a nervous breakdown to be comfortable with it. Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 18:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the reason the South Ossetian shelled Georgian villages was probably because of Georgian snipers taking pot-shots at them from those villages. There exists no motive why South Ossetia would try and deliberately start a War with Georgia, because they would be the main people to suffer regardless and potentially be annexed if Russia didn't come to their rescue. The reverse is not the case. Georgia has all the motives to try and 'reclaim' South Ossetia.
I've already started a discussion on this. It's in the archives here. I thought, based on the discussion, and on the predominance of format, that there was a consensus that this article should use dd Month yyyy format.
It's getting pretty annoying chasing date preference changes all over this article. I'm trying to get all dates in a consistent format. User:Tocino is now following me, reverting my date format edits. -- Elliskev 17:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Either format is acceptable, especially here, where the topic has no particular relation to any English speaking country. Please leave it alone, all of you. We have more urgent problems. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Besides, most of the dates are linked and this is not reasonable (what is a link to August 12 doing in this article for example...) Someone with AWB please fix it. -- Tone 18:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The main reason for autoformating was to stop all the arguments like this one. But apparently that isn't enough anymore. Rmhermen ( talk) 19:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
{{
editsemiprotected}}
Please add sentance "BP said it has seen no evidence of Russian attacks against the pipeline and 'no reports from people on the ground of any effect on the pipe at all.' " http://www.silobreaker.com/DocumentReader.aspx?Item=5_890468872
after words: "Georgia claims Russia is targeting the pipeline"
The pipeline thing looks like a merge candidate to the "Propaganda" section. Not because the Georgian claims are bound to be false (though the half-life of Georgian claims is about 12 hours of this war), but because if it were true, the Russians are missing far too often (not even a single bomb hitting even close by in 7+ attacks and counting? Ehm, no.). So the whole pipeline thing is really a psychological game, no matter if any airstrikes were flown or not. Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 19:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The term 'successionists' has apparantly been added beneath Abkhazia and South Ossettia. However nowhere in else in Wikipedia (including old wars involving these) are they referred too as 'successionists', only as South Ossetia.
This is POV stuff, since South Ossettia and Abkhazia are independant at least de-facto, they are therefore no longer 'successionists' except from a Georgian POV.
Also the war starts on August 1st, not August 7th when the Georgians started sniping at the South Ossetian army, not when the offensive was launched. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slayer of Cliffracers ( talk • contribs) 17:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The situation's has been sorted out, but I don't see why it's Government of Abkhazia, rather than just Abkhazia (is it the Abkhazian volunteers fighting on the other side?). And Russia is fine, although Russian Federation would do as well, it is shorter.
Oh it seems that it's been edited back to seperatists. This is Pro-Georgia POV because it is not neutral to refer to a country as seperatists unless they are fighting their initial war to obtain independance. Reffering to them as internationally unrecognised would be correct and NPOV, but unneceserily long since it is not a secret.
For instance, in the Iraq War thread say we don't call the USA the.
Seperatist government of the USA. Just the USA. Because it isn't their initial war of independance. According to the principle set down by this thread we should since they were seperatists against the British Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slayer of Cliffracers ( talk • contribs) 22:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I'm going to suggest a few POVs that editors might want to consider changing.
From the lead:
- Georgia then claimed that South Ossetian separatists had shelled Georgian villages in violation of a ceasefire.
It might be unintentional, but the use of the word 'then' makes it sound like the Georgians didn't come up with this claim until after the fact.
- Georgia retreated from its offensive in South Ossetia, then claimed to be defending itself against "Russian aggression.
Again it sound like they are retreating and then thinking up a justification afterwards. Also, retreating and defending in this context are contradictory, so it makes it sound like the Georgians are doing one thing and then saying another.
- Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili proposed a new peace accord, under which South Ossetia would be given "a large degree of autonomy" (which they already had in any case) within a federal state.
The section in brackets is pure editorializing.
- The Georgian budget contains military costs estimated at just under US$1 billion[45][46] or a 7 fold jump from 0.59% to about 4.5% of GDP (purchasing power parity),[47] .This does not include the U.S. Army aid which includes substantial amounts to support and train Georgia since 2002.[48]Russian military spending is almost static with US$40 billion, with a 16% increase over last year.[49]
Why does Georgian military spending come under Georgia's interests? Why is there not a similar discussion of Russia's military spending in Russian interests? You know why: POV.
137.44.13.70 (
talk) 17:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
You are only seperatists on your 1st War to obtain Independance. Since this is not the 1st War, then South Ossetia and Abkhazia being Seperatist Government is blatently POV, since to do so implicity recognises the Georgian claim on those places. That South Ossetia and Abygazia are unrecognised is already stated on their pages, so the NPOV position is actually to call them the Republics of Abykhazia and South Ossetia.
Calling them seperatists is a bit like calling the USA seperatists in the present day, because they originally were seperatists against Britain.
Any reports on pow's
As Russia claims, there is no war and thus no pow's, just lost Georgian soldiers :-) 90.191.22.22 ( talk) 18:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian services are active on the net, web blogs, and forums(see Web brigades) and its more then likely they infiltrated Wikipedia as well. Additionally the level of activism from nationalistic minded Russian users from pro-government organisations will ensure(combined with the average higher determination and numeric quantity) that the article will be always a battlefield for Russian nationalists supporting the invasion and bringing about Russian made claims. Since most users are not determined enough to keep on trying to neutralise it in face of such massive activity and Georgians are far fewer then the consequences are obvious.-- Molobo ( talk) 19:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"60 civilians were killed when at least one bomb hit an apartment in Gori", - is a lie. Russian warplane dropped the one bomb exactly on an armament depot near these buildings. Casualties was the result of explosion of an ammunition. About 60 civilians were wounded, unknown (?) number of civilians was lost. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ru magister ( talk • contribs) 19:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
They were reports of planned Russian invasion of Georgia relased by Chechen seperatists in July. According to them the invasion was to begin on 18th August. The report can be tracked to July and is detailed. Also US officials now claim that Russian movements earlier this month suggest Russians were using railways to transport large number of troops in preperation for invasion. All the above can be sourced to news reports. The planned arrival of several NATO leaders in Georgia's capital during the invasion and Lithuania's declaration that it will call for NATO to consider military intervention was probably the deciding factor why Russians broke off the attempt to take over Georgia-it was on the brink of confrontation with NATO.-- Molobo ( talk) 19:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
RM-70 is NOT a Czech weapon, but a Slovak one. It has been produced in Slovakia (Dubnica) ever since, both before and after the split of Czecho-Slovakia. It should be therefore referred to as either Czecho-Slovak (Czechoslovak) or Slovak. For more info see e.g. Czech version of the RM-70 wikipedia article, certainly a good reference in this context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.94.137.86 ( talk) 19:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
[23] As said above.-- Molobo ( talk) 19:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, it appears that Russia began a build up. Conflicts began to break out. Georgia began planning a response. Georgia lied about their response plans. Georgia then went in, forcefully. Russia then went in, forcefully. Now wer're here.
65.68.1.90 (
talk) 20:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Since a notable amount of combat has taken place during this war outside of South Ossetia, specifically in Abkhazia and Georgia proper (by Georgia proper, I am referring to all of Georgia bar the three disputed territories), I think this article should have its title changed to reflect that, as "2008 South Ossetia war" suggests that combat is limited to that disputed territory alone. Perhaps a new title could be "2008 Russian-Georgian War". 86.146.241.248 ( talk) 19:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Although I am not able to prove it, I would like to state that I am not a troll. As Dysmorodrepanis suggested, I had not observed that proposals for a move had already been made, before I made my own request. I apologise for starting a new discussion regarding a possible move of this article, as a result. Having said that, I would like to respond to some of the points that have been made in this discussion. I can understand Gleb's reasoning behind him saying "Current title reflects the cause of the conflict well enough." I do not agree with his point, though, as that would be suggesting that World War One should be called the "Serbian War 1914" (as another user in another discussion on this talk page suggested). On another point, as you have acknowledged Gleb, the conflict involves other "disputed territories". As a result, I believe the title should be changed to reflect the fact that more territories than just South Ossetia alone are being fought over. 86.146.241.248 ( talk) 21:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Leaders of NATO countries Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia are in Tibilisi now speaking at the rally. Also is present the leader of Ukraine. President Kaczynski " - We are to take on the fight. For the first time since a long period our neighbours showed their faces that we know for hundreds of years. Our neighbours believe that nations around them should serve them. We say no!"
A loose translation. I believe it is notable international event-4 NATO countries and Ukraine leaders declaring their will to resist Russian invasions of neighbouring countries. Oh and before somebody asks-they were on route to Georgia's capital before Russians broke off their invasion-- Molobo ( talk) 20:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The trip was in progress when Russian invasion continued. They were to land in Azari capital and then move by armed convoy to Tibilisi. A larger version of the speech is here: [24] -- Molobo ( talk) 20:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
To be frank:NATO will be dead, since France and Germany actually sided with Russia during its invasion of Georgia. What we will possibly see is Alliance of Democracies supported by McCain if he wins. But regardless, this can be sourced, I will see for larger version of the speech and speeches of others who spoke. -- Molobo ( talk) 20:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
[25] International Herald Tribune "Poland's President Lech Kaczynski has told the gathered Georgians, "Our neighbor thinks it can fight us. We are telling it no." He was referring to Russia, which has sent tanks and jets to repel a Georgian advance on a separatist region.
Kaczyinski says Russia wants a return to "old times."
Ukraine's President Viktor Yushchenko told the huge crowd "freedom is worth fighting for." -- Molobo ( talk) 21:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I hate to impose. But, could I see the articles about France and Germany? Not arguing. Interested. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
German vice minister of foreign affairs supported Russia and attacked Georgia, Sarkozy supported Russia as well saying "it had right to protect Russian citizens abroad". This can be sourced.-- Molobo ( talk) 21:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Is it a violation of Wikipedias policy to use photos of the war from news articles based on yahoo.com? Homan05
Good question. Rules is why I'm not on the front trying to edit the article myself.
65.68.1.90 (
talk) 20:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm laughing..... A lot, or is it, alot??? 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 20:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
In the section "Night of August 7 – August 8: Georgian attacks" there is a typo. It starts out:
According to spokesman for Georgia's Interior Ministry statement, during the night and early morning,...
It should be
According to a spokesman for Georgia's Interior Ministry, during the night and early morning,...
or
According to a statement by Georgia's Interior Ministry, during the night and early morning,...
Is there any word on the status of the United Nations Observer Mission in Georgia? – Zntrip 20:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
[26] New York Times article Other Internet experts in the United States said the attacks against Georgia’s Internet infrastructure began as early as July 20, with coordinated barrages of millions of requests — known as distributed denial of service, or D.D.O.S., attacks — that overloaded certain Georgian servers.
-- Molobo ( talk) 20:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
According to this article from Time magazine:
“ | Indeed, the human suffering is impossible to ignore. Hundreds have been killed and many more wounded. Refugees from South Ossetia continue to arrive in the area outside the capital, looking for somewhere to live. The last few hours may have been the worst. Late in the morning on Tuesday, four attack helicopters swept in over the brow of the hill and fired incendiary bombs into the wheat field. Villagers ran for cover. It was the second attack in less than 12 hours. In the early hours of this morning, a group of Russian jets bombed a cement factory and railway line in the neighboring village. In nearby Gori, the hospital was attacked; a Dutch journalist was killed.
Across the road from the burning farmer's field, three Georgian brothers in their 80s sat on a bench, resting their feet. They had walked 60 km (37 miles) since early Monday and did not know where to go. They are from a small ethnically mixed village in the Liakhvi gorge in South Ossetia. Their families left their homes earlier but, as old people, they stayed behind thinking that they would not be molested. But on Monday morning, Levan Khaduri, 84, a tiny gray-haired man with a deep tan, was putting up a new fence around the home that he was born in when a neighbor, who is Ossetian, said ‘Don't bother. That is not your home any more. Just go.’ ‘These were our own neighbors. We knew them!’ says Khaduri, still amazed. ‘We don't know what to do. If I go back. I don't have a house. I don't have cows. Nothing.’ As we talked, another open truck piled high with the belongings of refugees, carpets, clothes, a TV, trundled by on the road to Tbilisi. Even if the war is over for others, these refugees' struggle may be only beginning. They won't be returning to territory now controlled by Russian troops. |
” |
But you can put eyewitness accounts from the Russian side of "rampaging baby-killing Georgian murderers who run over old women with tanks and shoot wounded Russians" eh?
Russians twist the truth on casualties, as they did in Chechnya, they lost there well over 10 000 soldiers, i believe 21 is not correct, it will be around 100, try to get number from russian and georgian news websites! Mirandamir ( talk) 21:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC) If you need help just ask me, I am historian!
I suppose that in the future historical reserches will be a lot of timeline versions how did this WAR start. Let's collect it ?
BBC version http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7551576.stm
THURSDAY 7 AUGUST
Georgian forces and separatists in South Ossetia agree to observe a ceasefire and hold Russian-mediated talks to end their long-simmering conflict. Hours later, Georgian forces launch a surprise attack, sending a large force against the breakaway province and reaching the capital Tskhinvali. South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity accuses Georgia of a "perfidious and base step". The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia says the operation is intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government says the troops are "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians". Russia's special envoy in South Ossetia, Yury Popov, says Georgia's military operation shows that it cannot be trusted and he calls on Nato to reconsider plans to offer it membership. ...
-- Niggle ( talk) 21:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
18th July 2008:Polish media report about Russian plan to invade Georgia in August [27] -- Molobo ( talk) 21:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
I think you can modify the "Conflict ongoing" tag. [1]
Russia and Georgia have agreed a truce brokered by French President Nicolas Sarkozy, and have approved the principles of a full peace plan.
The only intelligent thing I heard about Russia and Georgia in about a week. It's over, and let's hope it stays that way. Qubix 82.208.174.72 ( talk) 22:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian Defence Ministry said it has no plans to attack Tbilisi. "We do not have and have never had any plans to advance on Tbilisi," cites Interfax agency a source in Russian command. Also Russian troops reportedly left Senaki military base. Russia says no plan to attack Tbilisi Российские войска покинули район города Сенаки
Seems to be getting over. Russia needs not Tbilisi, Georgia retreats from Tskhinvali. Garret Beaumain ( talk) 20:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
AP report from yahoo.com [ [3]]
An advance and claimed withdrawal from Senaki.
"Russian armored personnel carriers moved into Senaki, a town 20 miles inland from Georgia's Black Sea port of Poti, Lomaia said. Russian news agencies late Monday cited the Defense Ministry as saying the troops had left Senaki "after liquidating the danger," but did not give details."
Russians holding on to Zugdidi, and Abkhaz militias move into Kurga (in Georgia proper, not the disputed Kodori Gorge).
"Russian forces also moved into Zugdidi, near Abkhazia, and seized police stations, while their Abkhazian allies took control of the nearby village of Kurga, according to witnesses and Georgian officials."
"In Zugdidi, an AP reporter saw five or six Russian soldiers posted outside an Interior Ministry building."
Similar information from cnn.com [ [4]]
Similar information about Senaki citing the Russian ministry of Defence from lemonde.fr [ [5]]
"Des soldats russes sont entrés en territoire géorgien, près de Senaki, pour empêcher de nouvelles attaques géorgiennes contre l'Ossétie du Sud, annonce le ministère de la défense russe." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.44.195 ( talk) 20:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Another French source (Le Figaro) giving the same information. [ [6]]
"L'armée russe a occupé une base militaire près de la ville de Senaki «pour empêcher de nouvelles attaques géorgiennes en Ossétie du Sud». Dans la soirée, le ministère russe de la défense assure que les soldats se sont retirés de cette ville. Un haut responsable géorgien indique également que les forces russes occupent Gori, la plus grande ville géorgienne près de l'Ossétie du Sud, ce que le ministère russe de la défense dément. Des soldats russes sont également entrés dans la ville de Zougdidi, près de l'Abkhazie, selon un photographe de presse sur place."
Russia Warns Baltics, Poland To Pay For Georgia Stance. 132.68.248.44 ( talk) 20:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
As the conflict grows older, the difference in losses reported by one side and those acknowledged by the other seems to grow. This is a phenomenon common in warfare; usually the truth lies somewhere in between.
In order to clearly distinguish between figures claimed by side A and those acknowledged by side B, I've modified the Casualties and Losses section. For both sides, it now contains separate sections on how many casualties the side has admitted to have suffered and on how many casualties the other side claims it has inflicted.
I feel that this is the best way to keep the figures from being mixed up and to prevent edit-wars. Please comment if you disagree, otherwise please add as much sourced information as possible.
Whoops, too fast. That was me. Tritec ( talk) 20:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Question: What do we do about the 21 dead reported earlier and the 18 dead reported today? Is it 39 that we can report for Russia as confirmed, since they had confirmed 21 at one point then 18 at another without much clarification? 70.131.218.57 ( talk) 20:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
And how would a new member do so since this article is, rightly. semi-protected?
ShaneMarsh (
talk) 20:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
God damn, no. The fog of war and/or propaganda war is so great they even don't know/don't want to reveal their own losses, and you want to publish also their enemy losses claims? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 20:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Reading some of the debates ongoing around references I thought I'd do some analysis of the sources by country. As of 2:00pm PST there were 274 reference links and they break down as follows:
Macutty ( talk) 21:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Upon returning to the White House from China George Bush has given a speech setting out that the US interpretation of the Russian motive is regime change and their intelligence indicates Russian planes are preparing to sortie a massive raid on the civilian Tblisi International Airport. He goes on to condemn attacks on communication infrastructure and repeats the previously stated US position that Russia should cease hostilities and withdraw to the August 6th lines. WatcherZero ( talk) 21:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I updated the 10 August emergency session of the United Nations Security Council section by substituting text from the UN transcript http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N08/455/78/PDF/N0845578.pdf?OpenElement. It is a very interesting transcript Jason3777 ( talk) 21:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
concerning the edit I made18:34, August 11, 2008 Jason3777 (Talk | contribs) (137,993 bytes) (→August 10: Georgia begins withdrawing from Tskhinvali: removed alleged "regime change" becauce not documented in state Russian source.) should read "stated". Sorry Jason3777 ( talk) 22:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to thank you Jason3777 for putting this here. It was a most informative and interesting read. A shame we can't just add the whole page as citation. 210.215.75.4 ( talk) 03:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Apparently I am not eligible to make any edits, but there were a few sentences / concepts that were worded in a confusing or improper manner. Can someone make these changes?
First, in the introduction: "The conflict began in August 2008; after declaring a ceasefire." This is not correctly punctuated. A dash may be more appropriate, but a semi-colon suggests that a new idea was begun that requires both a subject and verb. The second problem with this is that it is a confusing statement. Usually cease-fires require conflict to have alread ensued. What cease-fire is being referred to? If it is referring to the conflict in the early 90's, the phrase could probably be completely removed as previous sentences implied that those conflicts had been at least temporarily resolved. If the phrase is retained, however, it should be clarified what the cease-fire refers to.
The second, also in the introduction: "South Ossetian leadership claimed that the Georgian side begun shooting first." This statement already has the problem of being uncited, but the word "begun" is not the correct word. Either "began" or "had begun". As it stands, it is grammatically incorrect.
The final oddity is referred to above over the dispute regarding occupation of Gori: "According to Georgian officials, the city of Gori, 40 miles (64 km) from the Georgain capital, has fallen to Russian forces.[163] Russian's defense ministry denied the information, claiming there were no russian troops on Gori. [164]. Also, this was confirmed by Reuters reporters James Kilner and Margarita Antidze, who said that there is no any "trace of troops or military vehicles, it is absolutely deserted".[165] This has also been stated by the British Foreign Secretary who said '...British representatives on the ground and the media have reported that Russia has extended the fighting today well beyond South Ossetia, attacking the Georgian port of Poti ,and the town of Gori, ... I deplore this.'[166]" The way it is currently phrased ("This has also been stated...") implies that the statement from the UK should reinforce the assertion that Gori was not, in fact, occupied. The statement made seems to do quite the opposite. The person cited only makes the statement that his sources said that Gori had been occupied and that he does not approve. It does not back-up the Reuters report, as the text currently implies that it should. The text should be changed accordingly.
Could an editor that is able to make these changes please do so? Thanks.
BobertWABC (
talk) 21:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I just created a new map showing the development of the first few days of the conflict / war ... however you want to call it. It may be interesting for the article. -- DanteRay ( talk) 22:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The map is not written in proper English (for example, "Chechenia"). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 23:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It seems you're marking areas which have merely been bombed as "fights" but you haven't actually marked the bombing campaign against the Kodori Gorge, which doesn't make a lot of sense.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 23:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Okay, Chechnya is finally written correctly; I added that the troups came through the Roki Tunnel; -- DanteRay ( talk) 15:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I have a few comments, suggestions: major raids in the Kodori Valley in Abkhazia were or are being carried out by air, so instead of tanks the arrow should show airplanes. The tanks were deployed in Ochamchira port town of Abkhazia by a carrier ship, which then entered Zugdidi and went to Senaki. So ideally, another arrow should show tanks entering from the sea. Also, I haven't heard about any fighting or explosiions near Gagra (north of Abkhazia). If that's verified, ok, but otherwise that mark needs to be removed. Thanks. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 14:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Guys, pls correct the map [7] - Russian forces approached Tzkhinvaly by Dzari's road, which goes around as the main road (through Kurta and Tamarasheni) was controlled by Georgian militaries and they wouldn't be able to get to the city. 87.236.29.60 ( talk) 21:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)Al
Georgia Conflict Alert: Russia must withdraw its troops from Georgia
Tbilisi/Brussels, 11 August 2008: Russia must cease its advances within Georgia, immediately withdraw its troops to its peacekeeping positions, and restore the status quo ante.
During the course of today, 11 August 2008, Russian troops, backed by its air force, advanced deep into Georgia, well beyond the boundaries of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and apparently took control of the Georgian towns of Gori, Senaki and Zugdidi, among others.
Russia has no legitimate security interests justifying its advance beyond the boundaries of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. It is not performing a peacekeeping function or defending the rights of Russian citizens. Today’s advances and attacks raise real doubts about Russia’s intentions with respect to Georgia. These steps appear aimed at undermining Georgia’s capacity to function as a state.
Russia must immediately agree to the ceasefire proposal made by European Union and Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) envoys, the French and Finnish Foreign Ministers Bernard Kouchner and Alexander Stubb, which Georgia has signed.
The international community, and particularly the United States and the European Union, must make it unequivocally clear that Russia’s aggression is a flagrant violation of international law and undermines its legitimacy as a defender of that law. It must also declare that failure to withdraw its troops back to South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and then to Russia, will be strongly condemned and will significantly damage Russia’s relations with the U.S. and EU. Western heads of state should deliver this message forcefully to the Russian president and prime minister, including in person in Moscow.
Once hostilities have ceased and withdrawal occurred, negotiations should take place between Russia, Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia to sign a non-resumption of hostilities text and agree to a revised peacekeeping arrangement and new negotiations format. All parties must secure the return of displaced persons and provide humanitarian assistance. [8]-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 22:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The BBC's latest headline report on the conflict (last updated 21:39 GMT on August 11th) cites a Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman as saying that Russian troops were never in Gori: The conflict over South Ossetia also appeared to have widened when Georgia accused Russia of capturing the town of Gori, just 76km (47 miles) from Tbilisi.
"This is a total onslaught," Georgia's National Security Council secretary Alexander Lomaia told the AFP news agency, adding that Georgian troops were pulling back to defend Tbilisi.
Russia's defence ministry quickly issued a statement rejecting the claim, saying there were none of its troops in Gori.
Later, a spokesman for the Georgian interior ministry told the BBC that there had never been Russian troops in Gori.
He said the Russian Army had taken up a position just outside the town after destroying a military base and admitted the Georgian army had fled the area without putting up a fight.
Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze then said.... and the article goes to outline more claims and counterclaims.
For the whole article see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm
Perhaps this should be added to the section on the article about the claims surrounding Gori? 72.27.174.160 ( talk) 22:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I believe the Russians have occupied the area around Gori and the suburbs. Thats from local Georgians I have talked to. Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 23:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
this again and again and again - while there's actually NOTHING about "180" in the article (not even to mention anything about "180 soldiers killed at Tskhinvali" - plus, even few hours ago Georgia was saying it didn't lost that many soldiers TOTAL).
I told him. In the talk page, in the edit summary, even in the article's body. He knows. And he did it anyway. Can he be blocked from editing at least one article? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 22:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
As former citizens of the now non-existent USSR, many residents of South Ossetia chose to exercise their right to Russian citizenship (citiation to the relevant 1991 Russian law provision needed) in order to obtain Russian social security benefits, which Georgia did not provide to the separatist region. (Lennie 00:00 GMT 12.08.08)
Can we agree on one HERE?
From my side - the short-lived ceasefire was uniliteral Georgian (it should be noted), so the rebels technically couldn't broke it, as they were not binded by any agreements. (it's kinda like the later Georgian uniliteral ceasefires/ceasefire offers, all ignored by Russia.) Btw, Georgia said 10 Georgians civilians and peacekeepers were killed in the alleged initial rebel attack. [10] -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 23:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
(I am sorry, I don't know how to add to the above section) - Since it is alleged that Russia "handed out" passports to create a pre-text for invading Georgia, the position should be clarified in this article. The issue of passports is so often quoted in the media that it should be given appropiate space here. There is a good reference to it in the interview with Foreign MInister of Russia Lavrov, which can be found here: http://www.ln.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/f68cd37b84711611c3256f6d00541094/f87a3fb7a7f669ebc32574a100262597?OpenDocument (Lennie, 00:36 GMT 12.08.08)
A bit too long a Separate Article called Humanitarian impact of the 2008_South_Ossetia_war Could help cut the length down. ARBAY TALKies 23:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It isn't quite August 12 yet, but there is information posted as of now under the Aug 12 heading, but then again, it depends on your time zone. Should the article's timeline use UTC dates? -- Josephdurnal ( talk) 23:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Which is it? The lede says that it began on 7 August. Then it says it began on 8 August. Is this a local time/UTC discrepancy? -- Elliskev 23:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Rebels allegedly "broke" the small-level conflict ceasefire (which was Georgian uniliteral) on August 7 and on the same day Georgian artillery started firing back. On the early hours of August 8 the Georgians launched a barrage on the rebel capital, and at dawn the ground offensive. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 23:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm not fond of watching over american elections, but it is somewhat related:
John McCain's top foreign-policy adviser, Randy Scheunemann, is a leading expert on U.S.-allied Georgia -- and was a paid lobbyist for the former Soviet republic until March, in the run-up to what has become a major battle between Georgia and Russia.
Democratic rival Barack Obama's presidential campaign was quick to try to paint Mr. Scheunemann's dual roles as a conflict of interest after Sen. McCain swiftly took Georgia's side in the dispute, and cited it as evidence that Sen. McCain is "ensconced in a lobbyist culture," as Obama spokesman Hari Sevugan told reporters over the weekend.
McCain may lose some points and Obama win some. Does it fit "International reaction", perhaps?
Captain Obvious, please be polite and don't simply remove what you don't like. I suppose it may be useful information for article and perhaps even more articles in Wikipedia. Garret Beaumain ( talk) 00:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
July 31 was ended "Immediate Response" NATO training at Vaziani Military Base (near Tbilisi), with 1000 US military specialists (from United States Army Europe, 3rd Battalion, 25th Marine Expeditionary Unit, 1st Battalion 121 Infantry Regiment Georgian National Guard (Atlanta, Georgia) and 5045th General Support Unit.) Ru magister ( talk) 00:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
If it wouldn't be a problem - and I realise the situation is very fluid - could somebody please create a map showing the portions of Georgia under Russian occupation? Thanks! Canadian Bobby ( talk) 00:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war#Number_of_Georgian_refugees for example. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 00:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"The European Union and the United States expressed a will to send a joint delegation to try to negotiate a cease-fire.[31" makes them all look completely neutral, while in fact the Western European countries and the United States condamned Russia in many, many often really sharp statements (which of course Russia all ignored, but it's another thing), which here are not represented even at International reaction to the 2008 South Ossetia war. They also took some actual if sometimes pactically symbolic action (besides stuff like Ukraine closing Crimea ports after Russian navy leaves or US airlifting Georgian soldiers back from Iraq, for example Poland gave Georgia the Polish president's own server to break the information blockade). But instead of the condemnation and the calls for Russia to AGREE to ceasefire, it's:
On August 10, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said the silence of Western nations during Georgia's initial incursion into South Ossetia "raises very serious questions about sincerity and their attitude towards our country," and also accused Western media of a reporting bias and lack of objectivity.[247] He ruled out peace talks with Georgia until it pulled back its forces beyond the borders of South Ossetia and signed a legally binding pact renouncing the use of force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another breakaway territory of Georgia. Moscow has deployed warships off the Georgian coast to prevent the smuggling in of arms and other military supplies.[248]
in the section "Demands to end conflict" (about half of it). What the hell? Can it get any more biased?
Look at this:
U.S. President George W. Bush urged Russia on Monday to end its armed conflict with Georgia after Moscow's forces advanced deeper into the territory of its pro-Western neighbor, ignoring Western pleas to halt.
"Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century," Bush said.
"The Russian government must reverse the course that it appears to be on...," he added, urging Russia to agree to a ceasefire offer by Georgia. [15]
A difference? An actual "demand to end conflict" instead of (for whatever reason) the Russian whining about the western "bias and lack of objectivity" in the section titled "Demands to end conflict"?
The article is lacking so many things I won't even even try to list them all now. The intro should be rewritten and updated. The "combatant reaction" section should be SERIOUSLY cleaned up. Lots and lots of stuff.
If you don't want to get "into detail" why so much focus on Russia's POV and what they think about the third party actions, instead of writing on these actual actions? (Like "Five liberal leaders from central and eastern Europe -- Poland, Ukraine and the three Baltic states -- planned to visit Tbilisi in a show or support for Saakashvili." from the same article). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 01:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Did I mention most of this stuff here is also either badly written or appears to be just copy/pasted randomly? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 01:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
There are major ground battles with Russia and Geogria in central and eastern Geogria, why they are missing? Is it because the name of the war is "South Ossetia" and the battle far from South Ossetia are excluded?-- Kittyhawk2 ( talk) 01:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Under August 10th actions, the following paragraph appears:
On August 10, at around 3:20 p.m. UTC, Georgia said that they ordered a ceasefire, and offered to start talks with Russia over an end to hostilities in South Ossetia.[138] Russia confirmed receiving the offer but said that "the Georgian side has not stopped military actions in South Ossetia, Georgian troops continued shelling."[139]
Source 138 is down, while 139 is this: [16] Unfortunately, a Google translation of 139 seems to directly contradict rather than support the information we have in this paragraph of the Wikipedia article. I do not have perfect trust in Google translation, so it may only be a translation issue. I would welcome other sources for this paragraph, and if several users all agree that no other sources are forthcoming and 139 is opposition to the paragraph then I suggest it be pulled. Christiangoth ( talk) 01:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"The MID (Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs) confirms that a cease-fire note has been delivered to the Russian embassy in Tbilisi, but they point out the continued military operations by Tbilisi in Southern Ossetia. 'Such a note does indeed exist' a source from RF MoFA told Interfax on Sunday evening. At the same time, according to him 'the Georgian side did not cease military operations in Southern Ossetia, Georgian troops continue shelling'. Another source in Russian MoFA remarked also that the statements of the Georgian side about stopping the military operations and about withdrawal of their forces from the zone of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict do not correspond to reality." 132.68.248.44 ( talk) 02:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I think these articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Kodori_Gorge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_10_August_2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tskhinvali http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war
Should all be comnined in one article Russo-Georgian War of 2008 or Russia-Georgia War of 2008.-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 20:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Vitaly Churkin, Russian Representative in UN, declared to journalist that Russia will not accept the resolution on South Ossetia, prepared by France. It is not exactly sure when Churkin had made the statement - before or during negotiations over the resolution. The document proposes an immediate cease-fire, and restoring the territory of Georgia as it was before the begining of the confronations. [191]
Should be "confrontations" I guess. Maybe somebody who can edit the article might change that? OelnJa ( talk) 01:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The separatist government in South Ossetia is funded by Russia. Two-thirds of their budget is supplied by Moscow. Gazprom, which is state-controlled, has made investments worth hundreds of millions of dollars in South Ossetia. These facts need to be included in the background section to explain the relationship Russia has with the separatists.
Currently the article claims that South Ossetia is de facto independent and that Russia plays the role of peacekeeper. Both of these are contentious claims and are misleading without clarifying the dominant role Russia has in South Ossetia and how dependent the separatists are on Moscow.-- Kelstonian ( talk) 01:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Dear Biophys, I tried to find Russian sources for the sake of neutrality. Here they are:
Morozov - http://www.ossetia.ru/news/ur-mor
Lunev - http://www.uralweb.ru/news/n328942.html
Barankevich - http://www.utro.ru/articles/2005/01/18/397255.shtml
Mindzaev - http://www.lenta.ru/lib/14190856/
-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 03:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I will remove this statement
The separatist government in South Ossetia is funded by Russia. Two-thirds of their budget is supplied by Moscow. Gazprom, which is state-controlled, has made investments worth hundreds of millions of dollars in South Ossetia.
until the proper evidence is provided.
A citation from one article by Reuters without an author (!), not analytical, without reeferences, can not serve as a reliable source for the Background section. Sounds like Yellow Pages. I can put it like this:
Some sources claim that the South Ossetian separatist government is "dependent on Russia", although these sources do not provide any reliable evidence or reference. These sources also say that the South Ossetian separatist government "is funded by Moscow", which "supplies two thirds of their annual budget" and the Russian state-controlled gas company Gazprom has made "investments worth hundreds of millions of dollars" in South Ossetia.
-- Victor V V ( talk) 09:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I just wonder why no one else paid attention to the significant fact that the "source" lacks references and in fact serves merely as an anti-Russian propaganda. Above mentioned Yulia Latynina is more known as novelist.
By parity, all who try to trace the funding issues forget to mention that Saakashvili and his ministers directly receive salary from Washington - dozens of articles can be provided as sources. Do you need this?-- Victor V V ( talk) 16:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Why are South Ossetia and Abkhazia labelled as "secessionists" under the belligerents heading in the infobox? They both have a constitution, their own elected president and parliament. Yes, they are unrecognized breakaway states but the fact remains: they are sovereign enough to run their own government. -Timberlax 01:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The best thing to do is to add "secessionists governments". Robin Hood 1212 ( talk) 21:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"The full independence of South Ossetia was supported by 99% of South Ossetia's civil population according to the South Ossetian independence referendum with 95.2% of the population participating in the referendum." - this sentence is misleading. It should be mentioned that 99% of South Ossetia's current ethnically Ossetian civil population supported it, but not the total, because ethnically Georgians (earlier mentioned comprising 20% of total pop.) have either boycotted it or were unable to vote. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 02:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Recommended reading on the historical background: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4498709.ece
When editing do not move one's text from one section to another. That will mislead the reader or create confusion-- Kittyhawk2 ( talk) 04:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"He looked up and ran like crazy, his body guards chased him down and tackled him down and covered him with a vest "Bronijelet"."
http://www.1tv.ru/news/ (3 movie on the left)
I think that this is important to mention that Georgian President loose his minds.
It was agreed that Russian dead are 21+18=39 It was changed to 39, but changed back. Could it be changed to 39 again, if not, then why not?
Your comment is an example of what is wrong with this article. Before the war is even over, you want all the details about the dead. You also want to publish details about what happened. Why not wait until the facts come out instead of speculating. If we had to believe everything on TV the whole of Georgia would be under Russian communist rule and the whole of Ossettia would have been wiped out. Just have patience. 196.38.218.24 ( talk) 14:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)DawnTreader
Apparently, the UN has accepted Russia has invaded Georgia Proper, can we put this in there? Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 02:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Agreed with Kittyhawk2. With a standing army of over 1 million i would think the international community would be very friggin carefull on how they worded something like that. A confirmed invasion would mean that the UN would have an obligation to take more action than they currently are. Even if we all realise that this is an invasion (not saying it is), the UN would dance around actually announcing it untill they had absolutely no other option.... I think we're all agreed this could get much messier than it already is. 210.215.75.4 ( talk) 03:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Here is the source http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_re_eu/un_georgia_russia Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 06:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Please put into article that it was Russia who requested security council to hold emergency session on the 7th of August after Georgia started the attack, but before Russian troops were moved into the S.Ossetia. Source - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7546639.stm Lucidlook ( talk) 08:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed that thew stated number of recalled troops from Iraq is listed as 1,000 and lacks a citation. In fact, 2000 troops have finished being airlifted back by the U.S. as reported by the Pentagon (see Yahoo: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_russia_georgia ) Just an fyi for anyone interested in updating the information. 207.7.179.62 ( talk) 03:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, we have Russia And Georgia Giving Opposite Reports, and the majority of the news are following with georgia. But, are they right? We can't really trust even foreign news because either they are following the russian statement of the georgian statements, so, who are we using, really, the only people that can be trusted is anybody who has contacts on the inside, and officals not in the sides.
The question is, canm we trust the sources to be true?-- Jakezing ( talk) 03:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
oops i forgot the squiggly things Andrew's Concience ( talk) 05:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that the external links contain two websites relating to the Polish President. http://www.president.pl/x.node?id=479 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_Republic_of_Poland . Isn't this confusing. What do these two Polish links have to be with the Georgian - South Ossetian conflict? werldwayd ( talk) 05:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I took the liberty of editing out the Polish website because if was generally for the president with only a hint of Georgia info. If need be that article should be sourced for something within this wikisite, but the whole Polish website as an external link is unnecessary. I also added the Georgian Presidency. And just for reference there already is an external links section in the archives: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war/Archive_5#external_links Lihaas ( talk) 06:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"On request of the President of Georgia, President of the Republic of Poland has provided the website of the President of Poland for dissemination of information. [...] Communiquès have been published on the website www.president.pl without any changes in their content introduced by us, in the form delivered by the sender." Cyberwarfare or not, this assistance is a real event and much more than "only a hint of Georgia info". Therefore the references should stay. Also, the Georgian infos from this website may be useful for Wikipedia as a source (at least temporary) on the Georgian version of events, e.g. this Timeline by 11th of August 19.30. The official website of the President of Georgia is not accessible at the moment, contrary to the "perfectly working" claim above. 132.68.72.110 ( talk) 11:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Please do not place Vostok, Zapad and Spetsnaz of 45th Regiment under any other unit except GRU itself. GRU is under direct commandment of Russian General Staff, it's submission order is not geographically based. Vostok and Zapad do not belong to North Caucasian Military district, nor to 58th Army or any other. 45th Regiment does not commanded by Moscow Military District commanders. Etc. Let's keep that in fact. Placing they under any other Russian units is big mistake. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 06:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Please add reference to a Wall Street Journal article by Saakashvili and its discussion in the Opinion Journal Forum there: http://forums.wsj.com/viewtopic.php?t=3644 —Preceding unsigned comment added by ACrush ( talk • contribs) 06:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
«Russian paramilitary troops cross into Georgian territory» under photo with BRDM-2 on it is completely wrong. Russia don't have any paramilitary units. (06:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC))
Russia has begun carrying out air defense drills in southern Russia. [17] [18] JCDenton2052 ( talk) 07:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
This is a request to some more experienced Wiki editor: Please consider adding this information to this website, as I am not experienced. A Polish well known and respected war correspondent Wojciech Jagielski reached Tskhinvali two days ago, and, according to his report, the claims that Tskhinvali was totally devastated (which also appear on this Wiki website) are strongly overstated. In this article: http://wyborcza.pl/1,75477,5574360,Rosja_wziela_Osetie.html Jagielski writes (in original): "Widziane ze wzgórz na przedmieściach Cchinwali nie sprawia wrażenia zrównanego z ziemią. Wysokie domy w śródmieściu są osmalone dymem z pożarów, ale stoją. Niskie domostwa rozrzucone wśród zielonych, dojrzewających sadów na niewysokich wzgórzach są nietknięte, choć całkowicie wymarłe." My amateur's translation of this passage follows: "Tskhinvali seen from the hills at its suburbs, does not yield impression to be pulled down to earth. High houses in the city center are charred by smoke from fires, but they are standing. Low homesteads scattered around green, ripening orchards on low-lying hills are untouched, though totally emptied." Please whoever speaks Polish, confirm the veracity of this passage and my translation. I believe that this witness' report is very important for the verification of claims of the Russian and Ossetian side about an alleged complete demolition of Tskhinvali. ( 129.206.32.243 ( talk) 07:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC))
A reminder of Wikipedia's policy on controversial foreign-language sources:
Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. Where editors use a non-English source to support material that others are likely to challenge, or translate any direct quote, they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors.
WP:V is a core policy and material which fails to comply may be deleted. -- Folantin ( talk) 07:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) "Where editors use a non-English source to support material that others are likely to challenge..." That doesn't just refer to direct quotations. "Likely to challenge" - I see a lot of editors on these talk pages challenging such material. I'm certainly going to (if I can edit the page). I'm fed up with being hoodwinked by foreign language references which are (a) unreliable and (b) do not back the claims Wikipedia editors say they do. -- Folantin ( talk) 10:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Yesterday the entry was readable and informative. Today the grammar has degraded noticably. The failure to use the English language articles (a, an, the) is jarring to the reader. The Russian language doesn't use articles (from what Russians have told me), and it is obvious that people from the region are contributing when they simply lack the English skills to do so in a way that actually helps the reader. It is also obvious that the entry itself has become a propaganda war. I've never seen a page go so "bad" in a single day. It was so remarkable that it motivated me to finally create a username. Sorry to vent, but if this were the future of en.Wikipedia, it would be a short future indeed. This entry is a broth that could use a lot fewer cooks. Roger Midnight ( talk) 12:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Some stats. Total count of references is increased from yesterdays 255 to todays 293. Count of non-english sources isn't really changed (around 85) but today is less russian refs than yesterday, but there is some estonian, polish, french etc refs more . -- Zache ( talk) 15:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
This is not up to those writers to decide who is accurate and who is inaccurate. This is up to reader to decide. Most Reader cannot decide it when it is minority Language. I don't mind personally if it is Chinese, how about you?This is not about edit war, think about it.-- Kittyhawk2 ( talk) 13:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The article size is 150kb now, and this section is quite big alone. I think we should leave the key points in there, and split the rest off to new articles, i.e. Humanitarian impact of the 2008 South Ossetia war in South Ossetia (not a good title name I know, but we can discuss that). D.M.N. ( talk) 07:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I will remove the map from the article. First of all, it's in Polish. Secondly, it's strongly POV. The title states "Russian aggression against Georgia" Óðinn ( talk) 07:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Naurmacil removed my previous edit and explained: "remove war propaganda - a UK source claims they're fighting propaganda. What makes you think the UK source isn't propaganda itself? It's unlikely, but it's purely POV."
So what is not a propaganda? However, please notice that both sides accuses "the other side" of using propaganda. So it is clear that at least one side uses propaganda, then it is enough to talk about a propaganda war. In addition it was UK website of Reuters. Reuters is not a reliable source? Please answer. I decided to rewrite it a bit and added again.
Besides, it would be great to extend the 'information warfare' paragraph because today it is almost as important as real warfare. Kieraf ( talk) 16:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
One more note to Propaganda Section. Georgian President Saakashvili is often appealing to Georgian in English, while the only official language in Georgia is Georgian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vadimkaa ( talk • contribs) 23:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
E verybody is denouncing Russia in this war, worth mentioning the intro?? It's blatantly obvious that if we had to shun aynbody here, it's unarguably Russia. The rest of the world can see this, that's why they're denouncing Russia. Should we include the notable opposition to Russia in this war in the intro or no? Hellothar999 ( talk) 04:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Some info from http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/200881241938917173.html sources for the rest will likely pop up on some Web news in the near future. The general picture is one of calm in the center, heat in the west.
The BBC is reporting now that President Medvedev has ordered an end to the Russian "operation" in Georgia...that almost certainly does not signal an intention to pull out of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, but perhaps may indicate that there is no intention to press further into Georgia "proper?" See link: BBC article —Preceding unsigned comment added by The paccagnellan ( talk • contribs) 09:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Someone can add this stuff to the ceasefire section if seems relevant. Lihaas ( talk) 10:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The question is whether there ever was any plan to press into Georgia "proper". As it seems at present, no, there wasn't. Russian troops are basically idling in most places of the frontline since 20 hours or so, and the "taking" of Poti and Senaki were actually raids by marine/airborne commandos (at least for the latter also confirmed by Tbilisi, so I guess it's legit). Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 14:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
When discussing Abkhazia, please distinguish between Russian forces and Abkhazian ones. They have an army in their own right. For example, Russia did not send troops to Kadori, the Abkhazians did. Thanks 196.38.218.24 ( talk) 14:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC) DawnTreader.
The leader of Abkhazia claims two units of 250 Abkhazia soldiers are fighting to take the gorge backed by artillery and jets of the Abkhazia airforce, Abkhazia does not have an airforce and earlier claims of it shooting down Georgian unmanned drones a few weeks ago with traning fighters were shown to be the Russian Airforce planes. AP also widely reportedly claims to have counted 150 Russian armoured vehicles passing them towards the Abkhazia/Georgia border so conflict in that region appears to be ongoing. WatcherZero ( talk) 18:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
In 'August 12', near the end, there is an almost indecipherable paragraph about some Vostok commander, his brother, and a federal crime. Either this is not relevant or needs to be explained better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.225.236 ( talk) 11:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
A Dutch journalist named "Stan Storimans", working for the Dutch news program "RTL Nieuws", has been killed by a bombardment on Gori from the Russians.
Dutch source:
http://www.rtl.nl/(/actueel/rtlnieuws/binnenland/articleview/)/components/actueel/rtlnieuws/2008/08_augustus/12/binnenland/0812_0915_RTL-journalisten_slachtoffer_Gori.xml —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
ADB15 (
talk •
contribs) 11:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
There have been some dead in Gori due to incoming; that much seems reliable, but the details are very sketchy. At least two attacks on the people (military and civilians) that retreated from the town seem to be confirmed, one in the outskirts which was witnessed by an Al J reporter, one in town which was implicity mentioned as having been witnessed by reporters. Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 14:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm new to editing wikipedia articles, but here is an update. After seven hours of calls to the Russian Red Cross and local health care workers, I discovered that the reporters Winston Featherly and Temouri Kigouradze were transported to the Republican Hospital in Vladikavkaz, Russia. Mr. Featherly was shot in the leg and is in stable condition (I talked to him on the phone), but Mr. Kigouradze is unconscious and seriously wounded. The Russian military is guarding their hospital room, and has already "interrogated" both of them in a verbally aggressive manner.
abc Anchorage, Alaska —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anc abc ( talk • contribs) 11:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Under Aug 12 it says "The Foreign Minister of Italy, Franco Frattini announced that Italy was ready to send troops to South Ossetia if the European Union decides to intervene on Monday." What I believe it should say is "On Monday the Foreign Minister of Italy, Franco Frattini announced that Italy was ready to send troops to South Ossetia if the European Union decides to intervene." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 12:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Why does it say August 7th as the beginning when the fighting started on August 1st? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.139.138 ( talk) 13:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
«Casualties and losses
Claimed by Russia:
2 helicopters lost
1 missile boat sunk»
This is incomplete list. Read this: http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/11/su/ — «В Южной Осетии сбит грузинский Су-25» (Georgian Su-25 shot down in South Ossetia), near Eredvi. ( Namenlos Ein ( talk) 13:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC))
Russian Wikikpedia 2008 South Ossetia War 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 13:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia's military attacks on Georgia will damage both Moscow's and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's image abroad, Sweden's Foreign secretary and Chairman of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe Carl Bildt said in an interview with Swedish Radio on today. "Russia will sooner or later have to pay a high price for this," Bildt said in a telephone interview from the Georgian capital Tbilisi. "It changes Russia's image, there is no doubt about it," he said, adding that the attacks bore witness to "a strong element of revenge, particularly from Prime Minister Putin." [21] Hapsala ( talk) 14:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"2000 dead" is almost certainly an exaggeration. But the town was hit very hard and much of its infrastructure have been destroyed. As per AFP on-ground report, neither a hospital nor a graveyard deserving of such a name exist anymore.
(The AFP report is probably the best and most detailed and possibly the only somewhat relaible news from South Ossetia we have for the last 24 hours). To find the report, you might try searching for "AFP" and "Nodar" (the head doctor in town and quoted in the article.)
The following,
South Ossetia and Abkhazia are territories within Georgia that declared independence from Georgia and have been acting in a de facto independent capacity since the early 1990s. Neither state has been diplomatically recognised by any member of the United Nations. In the early 2000s, it was reported that 95% of the population in South Ossetia were Russian citizens.[25]
Doesn't mention that Russia was supporting the breakaways and that Georgia had been trying to consolidate the whole time. Don't know if this is too biased for intro. PlanetCeres ( talk) 14:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have the times and dates that these people became "Russian citizens"? Was this during the "Peacekeeper" time? 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 14:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
first hand, no source except russian army: Georgian forces that was delivered by US Air Forces to Tbilisi airport begans their new attack on Tskhinvali. Russian army checking and destroying Georgian artillery positions. toxygen ( talk) 14:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The fact that South Ossetia and Abkhazia both obtained Russian weapons during the "Peacekeeper" time is not mentioned early enough. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 14:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Yet another georgian webiste defaced and hacked. http://www.yandex.ge/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.64.206.162 ( talk) 15:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Look, it over now as this shows. So, change the "result" to "Georgian attack repulsed" and "Russians hold territory in Georgia proper". Sparten ( talk) 15:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Article on Russian Radio Liberty web-site about Human Rights Watch mission (Russian branch, three people) to South Ossetia: http://www.svobodanews.ru/Article/2008/08/12/20080812140328000.html
It says that it`s difficult in count civilian casualties because almost all ossetians man are participating in militia in one way way or another, so ossetians see no difference between militia man and normal citizen. So when there was militia man killed, he is always reported as civilian casualty. According to article, there are really lots of volunteers from North Ossetia and other parts of Russian Caucasus, including cossacks (they fight in ossetian militia clothes). Also noted that number of casualties by officials are probably overestimated (i.e. HRW mission found that only ~110 people were delivered to Java hospital starting from 8 august). 91.203.158.3 ( talk) 15:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
This has got to be the only place not calling this a Russia-Georgia war. There was an attack on Kodori Gorge and invasion of a large part of Georgia launched from Abkhazia. Continuing to call this the South Ossetia War ignores the very basic reality that this is a much broader conflict. While Russia does have separatist backers in the region those backers are fighting on Russia's side. The main fighting is between Russia and Georgia not only in South Ossetia but in various areas outside of South Ossetia. There is absolutely no justification for keeping this name.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 15:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Actualy most popular name used by the international sources should be chosen. If majority of world calls it "South Ossetia War" then that should be name, if most popular name is "Russo-Georgian War" then that should be chosen. Wikipedians can't invent their own names.-- Staberinde ( talk) 18:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
There are lots of, lots of changes to the lead here, leading to quite some edit warring and a lot of confusion. I don't think anyone of us want that. Plus, a lot of false information and sourceless material gets in there during the edit warring. I'm proposing here that a group of contributors here discuss and decide the composition of the whole lead and the warbox before making changes to the article, instead of edit warring over every single point. Here, for a start, the lead now:
The 2008 South Ossetia war is a military conflict that started on August 7, 2008 involving Georgia, South Ossetian and Abkhazian secessionists, and the Russian Federation. South Ossetia and Abkhazia are territories within Georgia that declared independence from Georgia and have been acting in a de facto independent capacity since the early 1990s. Neither state has been diplomatically recognised by any member of the United Nations. In the early 2000s, it was reported that 95% of the native population in South Ossetia adopted Russian citizenship.[25]On 7 August 2008, Georgia claimed that South Ossetian separatists had shelled Georgian villages in violation of a ceasefire. Georgia launched a military offensive to surround and capture the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali[26]. South Ossetia denies provoking conflict.[27][22]Russia moved its troops across the Georgian border, bringing ground forces into South Ossetia and Abkhazia and launching airstrikes on targets elsewhere in the country. The Russian government's stated justification for entering Georgian territory was to protect its own citizens and to prevent "a genocide by Georgian forces".[28][22] Georgia retreated from its offensive in South Ossetia due to Russian intervention (labelled as "Russian aggression.")[29] Separatists claim that Georgians killed at least 1000 South Ossetian people before the Russians intervened.[30] Russia responded to the charge in the United Nations, saying Georgia had started the war by conducting a military operation against South Ossetia.[22] Georgia insisted it had earlier been provoked by attacks by South Ossetian militants, which South Ossetia repeatedly denies.[27]Most international observers have called for a peaceful solution to the conflict[31] The European Union and the United States expressed a will to send a joint delegation to try to negotiate a cease-fire.[32] Russia ruled out peace talks with Georgia until the latter withdrew from South Ossetia and signed a legally binding pact renouncing the use of force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia.[33]Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said early on August 12 that he had ordered an end to military operations in Georgia.[34] Yet, fighting continued and Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze said that Russian jets were still targeting civilians.[35]
Here are some changes I propose:
I consider that POV and untrue. Sorry. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Sequence. Militants is right (depending) ... "all men are participating in S. Ossetia", Georgia began calling for cease Saturday. Still wish for better org. world opinion. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm saying it depends on what you refer and the time. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Disagree with conflict starting with "surprise attack".. There seems to have been a breakout of violence. (To be determined.) firstly. The word "surprise" is not justified. None of the participants had been "surprised". "Genocide" has no support outside Russia. Don't think we need both "genocide" sentence and the Russia thinks Georgia started. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Information Farware could be expanded or made as new article, as reader of both Russian and American news sites i can tell that its actually amazing to see the difference between what media spills on both sides. Or rather what media doesn't tell. For example all of United Nations emergency meetings were open yet almost no speeches were shown.
[22] Video and translated text of Vitaliy Churkin (Russian representative at UN) speech about whole Georgian-South Ossetian crisis.
Also it was reported and confirmed (yet never mentioned in western media i think) that Georgia captured two to four russian military officers including col. Igor Zinov, they were shot from TU-22P plane while conducting reconnaissance mission. Georgia claims that they were shot during bombing run on Gori. They are held in hospital in city called Gudushauri and they were shown laing on a beds and supposedly confirming what Georgia claims.
Well, there is this article from Radio Free Europe discussing the differences between the Western and Russian media coverages of the war. One excerpt:
“ | ‘Any such conflict affects the internal political situation by stimulating flag-waving patriotism,’ says Russian political analyst Fyodor Lukyanov. ‘This is particularly unpleasant, considering the extremely distressing anti-Georgia campaign we saw two years ago. If the armed conflict continues to escalate, I think the Russian leadership will have to take the utmost measures to prevent anti-Georgian agitation in the country.’ | ” |
“ | ‘Like any military man knows, and not only the military, when this kind of operation is under way, the overwhelming goal is not only directly in the conflict area, but sometimes beyond. Those goals, which used to support military action. This we have seen repeatedly in different situations. For example in the case of Kosovo, no special definitions itself is not limited to, but simply have to bomb the capital Belgrade and bridges on the Danube, which were in the hundreds of kilometres from the conflict zone.’ | ” |
-- 85.141.84.61 ( talk) 17:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that there is not any mention of the strategic position of S. Ossetia for Russian aggression. S. Ossetia provides a platform for invading the Georgian Heartland and protect the tunnel through the mountains. That those mountains would otherwise provide a natural defense for Georgia. Thus, the importance to both sides. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 14:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Intro or background... I'll go look. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 14:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia: Avoiding War in South Ossetia
Secition D, Pages 8-9
65.68.1.90 ( talk) 15:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Military importance of South Ossetia
65.68.1.90 ( talk) 15:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
July 26th - - Russia Profile - South Ossetia Looks North
Last two paragraphs of "Rising Tensions"
65.68.1.90 ( talk) 15:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia And Russia Collide In South Ossetia
Fourth paragraph from the bottom.
65.68.1.90 ( talk) 15:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
OK fine... You don't think Russia was trying to get a reaction from Gerogria? That's a POV to me. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Agree with NPOV while providing equal shares of relevant POV's. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Something is terribly wrong with the layout (at least for me). Could somebody please fix the infobox? -- 88.70.70.159 ( talk) 16:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} There needs to be a period after the sentence "Most international observers have called for a peaceful solution to the conflict" in the introduction. Spencer T♦ C 16:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Little is known about the involvement of the United States in this war. We know that the US Air Force delivered 2000 Georgian troops and equipment using C-17s, but there has to be more to it. Was cover provided by combat aircraft? Did Russia guarantee the safety of the aircraft and crews? I doubt the US would fly transport sorties without such assurances or/and air cover. I would like to know more, but most mainstream news sources aren't reporting much. -- Josephdurnal ( talk) 16:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no reference that the training received was for the intent of S. Ossetian conflict. And, there is reference to attempts to keep this training from being used against people within Georgia. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Less important then Russia providing weapons to the breakaways. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 17:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Pentagon officials would not say where the C-17s dropped off the Georgian troops or if they entered Georgian airspace, but Associated Press photos show the Georgian troops disembarking in Tblisi, Georgia’s capital.
It was reported that Russia called a ceasefire today, claiming it had accomplished its mission to protect its citizens and peace-keepers. Russia is reported to be in full control of S. Ossetia. 68.40.244.138 ( talk) 17:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC) (Mactruth)
Yes, it should be noted that three days after Georgia called for a ceasefire Russia began to call for one.
65.68.1.90 (
talk) 17:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Who broke what, where, and when is something to be determined later. Both, POV's should be given. And, given with less importance until more is known. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 17:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
There are numerous sources of conflict prior to that happening. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 17:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
AFP - US urges Russia to avoid provocation in South Ossetia
65.68.1.90 ( talk) 17:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The sentence,
Georgia then claimed that South Ossetian separatists had shelled Georgian villages in violation of a ceasefire.
implies that conflict had not been going on and that only after they moved in did they claim conflict had.
65.68.1.90 ( talk) 17:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
These mutual artillery duels have been constant occurrence during the last 4 years or so.
But there is another thing: what about the claims by Saakashvali that he was duped - that he was led to believe an unannounced(? do they have to announce these?) Russian "peacekeeper" convoy moving into S Ossetia on the 7th or early 8th was part of an invasion: Russia had quite obviously concentrated troops in N Ossetia since the start of April, with little effort to hide it from Georgian eyes (apparently Putin even told GWB in person, knowing one Texan who can't keep his mouth shut when he sees one), but took pains to deny any knowledge of the troop concentration to Georgian officials. And that then he broke and overreacted, ordering the Russians (a handful or two of BMPs) to be stopped with all force necessary, which was promptly done courtesy of a Georigan artillery unit? And that then there was a Russian bombing raid "into Georgia" (which according to Tbilisi includes S Ossetia of course, so if this artillery ambush happened, the "peacepkeepers" might just have wired for CAS which oh-so-conveniently was instantly available). In response to which he ordered the assault on Tskhanvali, in response to which a suspiciously ready-to-rumble Russian force waltzed in?
As The Independent puts it:
[Saakashvali] called Mr Putin's bluff, and Mr Putin, with some trademark harsh words, laid down a full house...
There was no real "provocation" in the shelling, that was just the usual bad blood. Has happened over and over again since the last ceasefire. But Putin seems to have invited Saakashvali to a fight and for reasons that are utterly baffling Saasakshvali took the bait. So basically Putin seems to have dangled something in front of Saakashvali's nose to see whether he understood it as Russian provocation, but if he did, things were arranged so that it would technically be a Georgian provocation (an unpremediated attack on "Russian peacekeepers" which it that's what happened probably were exactly that - why waste good troops?).
That is what I can glean from the cryptic comments of a Mr Saakashvali who was at that time (2 days ago) too close to a nervous breakdown to be comfortable with it. Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 18:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the reason the South Ossetian shelled Georgian villages was probably because of Georgian snipers taking pot-shots at them from those villages. There exists no motive why South Ossetia would try and deliberately start a War with Georgia, because they would be the main people to suffer regardless and potentially be annexed if Russia didn't come to their rescue. The reverse is not the case. Georgia has all the motives to try and 'reclaim' South Ossetia.
I've already started a discussion on this. It's in the archives here. I thought, based on the discussion, and on the predominance of format, that there was a consensus that this article should use dd Month yyyy format.
It's getting pretty annoying chasing date preference changes all over this article. I'm trying to get all dates in a consistent format. User:Tocino is now following me, reverting my date format edits. -- Elliskev 17:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Either format is acceptable, especially here, where the topic has no particular relation to any English speaking country. Please leave it alone, all of you. We have more urgent problems. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Besides, most of the dates are linked and this is not reasonable (what is a link to August 12 doing in this article for example...) Someone with AWB please fix it. -- Tone 18:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The main reason for autoformating was to stop all the arguments like this one. But apparently that isn't enough anymore. Rmhermen ( talk) 19:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
{{
editsemiprotected}}
Please add sentance "BP said it has seen no evidence of Russian attacks against the pipeline and 'no reports from people on the ground of any effect on the pipe at all.' " http://www.silobreaker.com/DocumentReader.aspx?Item=5_890468872
after words: "Georgia claims Russia is targeting the pipeline"
The pipeline thing looks like a merge candidate to the "Propaganda" section. Not because the Georgian claims are bound to be false (though the half-life of Georgian claims is about 12 hours of this war), but because if it were true, the Russians are missing far too often (not even a single bomb hitting even close by in 7+ attacks and counting? Ehm, no.). So the whole pipeline thing is really a psychological game, no matter if any airstrikes were flown or not. Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 19:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The term 'successionists' has apparantly been added beneath Abkhazia and South Ossettia. However nowhere in else in Wikipedia (including old wars involving these) are they referred too as 'successionists', only as South Ossetia.
This is POV stuff, since South Ossettia and Abkhazia are independant at least de-facto, they are therefore no longer 'successionists' except from a Georgian POV.
Also the war starts on August 1st, not August 7th when the Georgians started sniping at the South Ossetian army, not when the offensive was launched. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slayer of Cliffracers ( talk • contribs) 17:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The situation's has been sorted out, but I don't see why it's Government of Abkhazia, rather than just Abkhazia (is it the Abkhazian volunteers fighting on the other side?). And Russia is fine, although Russian Federation would do as well, it is shorter.
Oh it seems that it's been edited back to seperatists. This is Pro-Georgia POV because it is not neutral to refer to a country as seperatists unless they are fighting their initial war to obtain independance. Reffering to them as internationally unrecognised would be correct and NPOV, but unneceserily long since it is not a secret.
For instance, in the Iraq War thread say we don't call the USA the.
Seperatist government of the USA. Just the USA. Because it isn't their initial war of independance. According to the principle set down by this thread we should since they were seperatists against the British Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slayer of Cliffracers ( talk • contribs) 22:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I'm going to suggest a few POVs that editors might want to consider changing.
From the lead:
- Georgia then claimed that South Ossetian separatists had shelled Georgian villages in violation of a ceasefire.
It might be unintentional, but the use of the word 'then' makes it sound like the Georgians didn't come up with this claim until after the fact.
- Georgia retreated from its offensive in South Ossetia, then claimed to be defending itself against "Russian aggression.
Again it sound like they are retreating and then thinking up a justification afterwards. Also, retreating and defending in this context are contradictory, so it makes it sound like the Georgians are doing one thing and then saying another.
- Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili proposed a new peace accord, under which South Ossetia would be given "a large degree of autonomy" (which they already had in any case) within a federal state.
The section in brackets is pure editorializing.
- The Georgian budget contains military costs estimated at just under US$1 billion[45][46] or a 7 fold jump from 0.59% to about 4.5% of GDP (purchasing power parity),[47] .This does not include the U.S. Army aid which includes substantial amounts to support and train Georgia since 2002.[48]Russian military spending is almost static with US$40 billion, with a 16% increase over last year.[49]
Why does Georgian military spending come under Georgia's interests? Why is there not a similar discussion of Russia's military spending in Russian interests? You know why: POV.
137.44.13.70 (
talk) 17:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
You are only seperatists on your 1st War to obtain Independance. Since this is not the 1st War, then South Ossetia and Abkhazia being Seperatist Government is blatently POV, since to do so implicity recognises the Georgian claim on those places. That South Ossetia and Abygazia are unrecognised is already stated on their pages, so the NPOV position is actually to call them the Republics of Abykhazia and South Ossetia.
Calling them seperatists is a bit like calling the USA seperatists in the present day, because they originally were seperatists against Britain.
Any reports on pow's
As Russia claims, there is no war and thus no pow's, just lost Georgian soldiers :-) 90.191.22.22 ( talk) 18:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian services are active on the net, web blogs, and forums(see Web brigades) and its more then likely they infiltrated Wikipedia as well. Additionally the level of activism from nationalistic minded Russian users from pro-government organisations will ensure(combined with the average higher determination and numeric quantity) that the article will be always a battlefield for Russian nationalists supporting the invasion and bringing about Russian made claims. Since most users are not determined enough to keep on trying to neutralise it in face of such massive activity and Georgians are far fewer then the consequences are obvious.-- Molobo ( talk) 19:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"60 civilians were killed when at least one bomb hit an apartment in Gori", - is a lie. Russian warplane dropped the one bomb exactly on an armament depot near these buildings. Casualties was the result of explosion of an ammunition. About 60 civilians were wounded, unknown (?) number of civilians was lost. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ru magister ( talk • contribs) 19:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
They were reports of planned Russian invasion of Georgia relased by Chechen seperatists in July. According to them the invasion was to begin on 18th August. The report can be tracked to July and is detailed. Also US officials now claim that Russian movements earlier this month suggest Russians were using railways to transport large number of troops in preperation for invasion. All the above can be sourced to news reports. The planned arrival of several NATO leaders in Georgia's capital during the invasion and Lithuania's declaration that it will call for NATO to consider military intervention was probably the deciding factor why Russians broke off the attempt to take over Georgia-it was on the brink of confrontation with NATO.-- Molobo ( talk) 19:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
RM-70 is NOT a Czech weapon, but a Slovak one. It has been produced in Slovakia (Dubnica) ever since, both before and after the split of Czecho-Slovakia. It should be therefore referred to as either Czecho-Slovak (Czechoslovak) or Slovak. For more info see e.g. Czech version of the RM-70 wikipedia article, certainly a good reference in this context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.94.137.86 ( talk) 19:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
[23] As said above.-- Molobo ( talk) 19:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, it appears that Russia began a build up. Conflicts began to break out. Georgia began planning a response. Georgia lied about their response plans. Georgia then went in, forcefully. Russia then went in, forcefully. Now wer're here.
65.68.1.90 (
talk) 20:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Since a notable amount of combat has taken place during this war outside of South Ossetia, specifically in Abkhazia and Georgia proper (by Georgia proper, I am referring to all of Georgia bar the three disputed territories), I think this article should have its title changed to reflect that, as "2008 South Ossetia war" suggests that combat is limited to that disputed territory alone. Perhaps a new title could be "2008 Russian-Georgian War". 86.146.241.248 ( talk) 19:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Although I am not able to prove it, I would like to state that I am not a troll. As Dysmorodrepanis suggested, I had not observed that proposals for a move had already been made, before I made my own request. I apologise for starting a new discussion regarding a possible move of this article, as a result. Having said that, I would like to respond to some of the points that have been made in this discussion. I can understand Gleb's reasoning behind him saying "Current title reflects the cause of the conflict well enough." I do not agree with his point, though, as that would be suggesting that World War One should be called the "Serbian War 1914" (as another user in another discussion on this talk page suggested). On another point, as you have acknowledged Gleb, the conflict involves other "disputed territories". As a result, I believe the title should be changed to reflect the fact that more territories than just South Ossetia alone are being fought over. 86.146.241.248 ( talk) 21:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Leaders of NATO countries Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia are in Tibilisi now speaking at the rally. Also is present the leader of Ukraine. President Kaczynski " - We are to take on the fight. For the first time since a long period our neighbours showed their faces that we know for hundreds of years. Our neighbours believe that nations around them should serve them. We say no!"
A loose translation. I believe it is notable international event-4 NATO countries and Ukraine leaders declaring their will to resist Russian invasions of neighbouring countries. Oh and before somebody asks-they were on route to Georgia's capital before Russians broke off their invasion-- Molobo ( talk) 20:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The trip was in progress when Russian invasion continued. They were to land in Azari capital and then move by armed convoy to Tibilisi. A larger version of the speech is here: [24] -- Molobo ( talk) 20:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
To be frank:NATO will be dead, since France and Germany actually sided with Russia during its invasion of Georgia. What we will possibly see is Alliance of Democracies supported by McCain if he wins. But regardless, this can be sourced, I will see for larger version of the speech and speeches of others who spoke. -- Molobo ( talk) 20:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
[25] International Herald Tribune "Poland's President Lech Kaczynski has told the gathered Georgians, "Our neighbor thinks it can fight us. We are telling it no." He was referring to Russia, which has sent tanks and jets to repel a Georgian advance on a separatist region.
Kaczyinski says Russia wants a return to "old times."
Ukraine's President Viktor Yushchenko told the huge crowd "freedom is worth fighting for." -- Molobo ( talk) 21:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I hate to impose. But, could I see the articles about France and Germany? Not arguing. Interested. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
German vice minister of foreign affairs supported Russia and attacked Georgia, Sarkozy supported Russia as well saying "it had right to protect Russian citizens abroad". This can be sourced.-- Molobo ( talk) 21:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Is it a violation of Wikipedias policy to use photos of the war from news articles based on yahoo.com? Homan05
Good question. Rules is why I'm not on the front trying to edit the article myself.
65.68.1.90 (
talk) 20:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm laughing..... A lot, or is it, alot??? 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 20:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
In the section "Night of August 7 – August 8: Georgian attacks" there is a typo. It starts out:
According to spokesman for Georgia's Interior Ministry statement, during the night and early morning,...
It should be
According to a spokesman for Georgia's Interior Ministry, during the night and early morning,...
or
According to a statement by Georgia's Interior Ministry, during the night and early morning,...
Is there any word on the status of the United Nations Observer Mission in Georgia? – Zntrip 20:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
[26] New York Times article Other Internet experts in the United States said the attacks against Georgia’s Internet infrastructure began as early as July 20, with coordinated barrages of millions of requests — known as distributed denial of service, or D.D.O.S., attacks — that overloaded certain Georgian servers.
-- Molobo ( talk) 20:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
According to this article from Time magazine:
“ | Indeed, the human suffering is impossible to ignore. Hundreds have been killed and many more wounded. Refugees from South Ossetia continue to arrive in the area outside the capital, looking for somewhere to live. The last few hours may have been the worst. Late in the morning on Tuesday, four attack helicopters swept in over the brow of the hill and fired incendiary bombs into the wheat field. Villagers ran for cover. It was the second attack in less than 12 hours. In the early hours of this morning, a group of Russian jets bombed a cement factory and railway line in the neighboring village. In nearby Gori, the hospital was attacked; a Dutch journalist was killed.
Across the road from the burning farmer's field, three Georgian brothers in their 80s sat on a bench, resting their feet. They had walked 60 km (37 miles) since early Monday and did not know where to go. They are from a small ethnically mixed village in the Liakhvi gorge in South Ossetia. Their families left their homes earlier but, as old people, they stayed behind thinking that they would not be molested. But on Monday morning, Levan Khaduri, 84, a tiny gray-haired man with a deep tan, was putting up a new fence around the home that he was born in when a neighbor, who is Ossetian, said ‘Don't bother. That is not your home any more. Just go.’ ‘These were our own neighbors. We knew them!’ says Khaduri, still amazed. ‘We don't know what to do. If I go back. I don't have a house. I don't have cows. Nothing.’ As we talked, another open truck piled high with the belongings of refugees, carpets, clothes, a TV, trundled by on the road to Tbilisi. Even if the war is over for others, these refugees' struggle may be only beginning. They won't be returning to territory now controlled by Russian troops. |
” |
But you can put eyewitness accounts from the Russian side of "rampaging baby-killing Georgian murderers who run over old women with tanks and shoot wounded Russians" eh?
Russians twist the truth on casualties, as they did in Chechnya, they lost there well over 10 000 soldiers, i believe 21 is not correct, it will be around 100, try to get number from russian and georgian news websites! Mirandamir ( talk) 21:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC) If you need help just ask me, I am historian!
I suppose that in the future historical reserches will be a lot of timeline versions how did this WAR start. Let's collect it ?
BBC version http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7551576.stm
THURSDAY 7 AUGUST
Georgian forces and separatists in South Ossetia agree to observe a ceasefire and hold Russian-mediated talks to end their long-simmering conflict. Hours later, Georgian forces launch a surprise attack, sending a large force against the breakaway province and reaching the capital Tskhinvali. South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity accuses Georgia of a "perfidious and base step". The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia says the operation is intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government says the troops are "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians". Russia's special envoy in South Ossetia, Yury Popov, says Georgia's military operation shows that it cannot be trusted and he calls on Nato to reconsider plans to offer it membership. ...
-- Niggle ( talk) 21:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
18th July 2008:Polish media report about Russian plan to invade Georgia in August [27] -- Molobo ( talk) 21:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)