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The Russian Chief of the General Staff at the time Army General Nikolai Makarov was not included under the Commanders and leaders section on the Russian side. 219.74.157.84 ( talk) 21:30, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
According to the article text itself and the separate article covering the timeline of the war, fighting in the conflict actually started on August 1 rather than August 7. I propose changing the start date in the infobox to August 1st to reflect such. If no one opposes, i'll be bold and do it myself. XavierGreen ( talk) 15:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
Google translate
Leaving Gori, Russian troops left on the walls of the Georgian military base a quote from V. I. Lenin
"Comrades Georgians, study military art in a real way !!! We will come and check !!! 71 Guards SMEs" (71st Red Banner Order of Kutuzov Guards Motorized Rifle Regiment, Khankala)
https://kprf.ru/rus_soc/59486.html
https://www.google.com/search?q=%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%89%D0%B8+%D0%B3%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B+%D1%83%D1%87%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%8C+%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%83+%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%83&rlz=1C1GKLB_enKZ658KZ658&oq=njdfhbob+uhepby&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l2.7475j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 -- 145.255.168.249 ( talk) 20:50, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Per WP:LEDE, the lede should introduce and summarise the topic, mentioning only the most important events. Here the events leading to the war are important and they are also controversial, even the facts that everyone agrees on are interpreted differently. In the article we can write about all that in line with WP:NPOV however in the lede there is no space for that. Therefore I believe that in the lede only the basic facts need to be mentioned. These are the basic facts as described in the EU independent fact-finding mission report about this period:
“ | The beginning of August 2008 was marked by an even further deterioration of the security situation in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone ... During the evening and night of 1-2 August, a series of intense and extensive exchanges of fire including sniper fire and mortar shelling occurred in the ... conflict zone, causing fatalities and casualties ... Beginning in the afternoon of 6 August fire was exchanged along virtually the whole line of contact between the Georgian and South Ossetian sides | ” |
“ | The shelling of Tskhinvali by the Georgian armed forces during the night of 7 to 8 August 2008 marked the beginning of the large-scale armed conflict in Georgia, yet it was only the culminating point of a long period of increasing tensions, provocations and incidents. | ” |
This is not me cherry-picking words from the report, see this Telegraph article for a summary.
In view of all this, I believe that Thucydides411's version is superior as it mentions both SO shelling of Georgian villages and the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali and does not put all the blame for breaking the ceasefire on the SO forces. Alaexis ¿question? 08:28, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
“ | Artillery attacks by pro-Russian separatists broke a 1992 ceasefire agreement. [1] [2] To put an end to these attacks and restore order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August. [3] | ” |
I don[t think this is a problem with sources. It's a problem of some editors wanting what follows Kremlin's favorite talking points and in this case that happens to be the favorite EU report. As for why we may trust OSCE over EU, here's one reason: Russia kicked OSCE out of Georgia by refusing to agree continued mission. Anyone Russia does not want on the ground is likely to be more impartial as far as I understand. And let not start talk about false moral equivalence between Russia and the rest. Also, Håkan Karlsson is a respected academic who does not have political conflict of interest like some EU bureaucrats and also does not come from a country with history of revolving door of officials working for boards of Russian energy companies to make $$$$.-- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 17:14, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
“ | Artillery attacks by pro-Russian separatists broke a 1992 ceasefire agreement.[37][38] With the declared goal of ending these attacks and restoring order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August.[39] Georgians took control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, in hours. | ” |
“ | There were increasing clashes between Georgian troops and South Ossetian paramilitaries in and around Tskhinvali for at least a week before 7 August 2008. On 1 August, five Georgian peacekeepers were wounded in a bomb attack attributed to Ossetian paramilitaries. Heavy fighting in Tskhinvali led to the death of six Ossetians and the wounding of 15 others later that night. More clashes were reported on 6 August, with numerous wounded on both sides. | ” |
@
LeontinaVarlamonva: Please stop making personal attacks. Your
second revert accused either
Alaexis or me of using a typical soviet tactic
, and above, you've accused some editors
of wanting what follows Kremlin's favorite talking points
[sic]. Throwing around these accusations just poisons the atmosphere, and violates one of the central pillars of Wikipedia policy:
WP:CIVIL. I'll also note that reverting the same content
multiple
times could be seen as edit-warring.
As for the content question, the current text uncritically reproduces the Georgian government's version of events, despite the fact that this version is, to be charitable, heavily disputed:
Artillery attacks by pro-Russian separatists broke a 1992 ceasefire agreement. To put an end to these attacks and restore order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August. Georgians took control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, in hours.
First, it blames the South Ossetian separatsists for breaking the 1992 ceasefire, though there is considerable dispute over how the escalation occurred, and at the very least, the fact that both sides fired across the de facto border in the days preceding 7 August 2008 is well documented. Second, the text claims that the Georgian army aimed to end these attacks and restore order
, taking the Georgian government's official (and again, contested) position at face value. An alternative interpretation is that the Georgian army moved in to conquer the territory. It is best to simply leave these sorts of subjective statements out of the lede, and to simply state what happened:
The Georgian army advanced into separatist-held territory in South Ossetia on 7 August, taking control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, in hours.
Finally, the US government outlet Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, which was founded explicitly as an anti-Soviet propaganda station, should not be used a source for contentious statements about geopolitical issues in Eastern Europe - or at least, it should be used sparingly and only with attribution of its statements, as we would do with other opinionated sources. Likewise, I would be wary of using reports produced by the Swedish Defence University.
One more point: the lede claims, Russian troops had illicitly crossed the Russo-Georgian state border and advanced into the South Ossetian conflict zone by 7 August before the Georgian military response.
There are five sources given. The first source (from the Swedish Defence University) actually states the opposite: that Russia responded to the Georgian military's offensive into South Ossetia. The second source (the Moscow Times) discusses Georgian claims that they were responding to a Russian incursion, but does not state that these claims are true. The third source (Chifu) does make this claim, but the report was funded by a US government think tank, the
German Marshall Fund, and it does not cite any sources for its claims. The
report produced by the European Union's fact-finding mission on the war notes the Georgian government's claims that Russian forces entered South Ossetia before the Georgian military began its operation, but the EU report is unable to substantiate nor rule out the Georgian claims (see pp. 220-221). At the very least, the claim that Russian troops entered South Ossetia prior to the conflict, and that the Georgian military operation was a response
, is contentious. It should not be stated in Wikivoice, but should rather be described as an allegation made by the Georgian government and denied by Russia. -
Thucydides411 (
talk)
16:19, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
In early August 2008, the South Ossetian separatists, apparently encouraged by Russia, began shelling Georgian villages in breach of a 1992 armistice and Russian military units illegally entered into South Ossetia.
victimyou're referencing, but the lede contains strongly POV material that states contested Georgian-government claims in Wikivoice, and this is unacceptable. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 16:58, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
“ | Already on 8 August, some seven hours after the start of the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali, Russian troops were pouring through the Roki tunnel to engage Georgian forces. | ” |
“ | Artillery attacks by pro-Russian separatists may have constituted breach of the 1992 ceasefire agreement.[37][38] With the declared goal of ending these attacks and restoring order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August.[39] Georgians took control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, in hours. | ” |
-- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 21:44, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
"The attacks on Georgian villages (Zemo Nikozi, Kvemo Nikozi, Avnevi, Nuli, Ergneti, Eredvi and Zemo Prisi) by South Ossetian forces can be qualified as equivalent to an “attack by the armed forces of a State on the territory of another State”
"As the upper Kodori Valley did not belong to the Abkhaz-controlled territory under the provisions of the Moscow Agreement, the attack against it by Abkhaz units supported by Russian forces constituted an illegal use of force as prohibited by the Ceasefire Agreement"
-- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 17:06, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
There is nothing in that specific part of Karlsson's assessment that the EU report refutes or contests, in fact areas I identified suggest opposite. Not addressing something or not specifically stating is not same as not agreeing with or contesting.-- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 10:27, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
References
Should the lede contain only the basic facts (e.g., "A attacked B and then C bombed D") or also opinions (e.g.,"X broke the ceasefire, Y is responsible for escalation")? For the facts that are disputed, is there a consensus or should we mention disagreements? Alaexis ¿question? 19:41, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
When I say basic facts I mean statements like "Russian army entered South Ossetia", "Georgian villages were ethnically cleansed", "Russia occupied Gori and Poti", "Georgian forces attacked Tskhinvali" etc. (not necessarily in that order). There is no disagreement in reliable sources that all of these events happened. On the other hand, such statements as "open hostilities started with a large-scale Georgian operation against Tskhinvali" [1] or "South Ossetian separatists ... began shelling Georgian villages in breach of a 1992 armistice" [2] express opinions about which there is no widely held consensus. My position is that it's preferable to stick to uncontroversial facts in the lede and mention notable opinions in the body of the article.
A separate issue is how to treat facts about which reliable sources disagree. The main such fact is whether there was a significant presence of Russian forces in South Ossetia before the Georgian attack. The EU fact-finding mission found that Georgian claims of a large-scale presence of Russian armed forces in South Ossetia prior to the Georgian offensive could not be substantiated. [3] On the other hand, certain Hakon Karlsson writes "Russian military units illegally entered into South Ossetia. Georgia rashly responded to these manifestly aggressive actions by attempting to recapture South Ossetia by force." [4]. It has not been demonstrated that one view or the other commands overwhelming support, so I believe both should be mentioned in the lede. Alaexis ¿question? 19:42, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
LeontinaVarlamonva, Thucydides411, please be aware of the RfC. Alaexis ¿question? 19:46, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
“ | The shelling of Tskhinvali by the Georgian armed forces during the night of 7 to 8 August 2008 marked the beginning of the large-scale armed conflict in Georgia | ” |
“ | Open hostilities began with a large-scale Georgian military operation against the town of Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas | ” |
“ | The Mission is not in a position to consider as sufficiently substantiated the Georgian claim concerning a large-scale Russian military incursion into South Ossetia before 8 August 2008 | ” |
Alaexis, I am very confused why you even want to clarify all this in introduction. Currently, introduction does not claim that Russia broke cease-fire or that it invaded Georgia before the Georgian move on Tskinvali. It only talks about the separatist actions, and there has never been any doubt separatists were there all along or that there was shelling from them. Sequence of events is already very clear in the introduction: sporadic shelling, Georgian operation, and then "Russia accused Georgia of "aggression against South Ossetia",[39] and launched a large-scale land, air and sea invasion of Georgia on 8 August with the stated goal of a peace enforcement operation" Nowhere in introduction does it say it was an unprovoked invasion.
"The attacks on Georgian villages (Zemo Nikozi, Kvemo Nikozi, Avnevi, Nuli, Ergneti, Eredvi and Zemo Prisi) by South Ossetian forces can be qualified as equivalent to an “attack by the armed forces of a State on the territory of another State”
and this:
"a violent conflict had already been going on before in South Ossetia,"
But then again I don't think any of this discussion is that necessary because introduction does not say anywhere that Russia attacked first, it only talk about separatist attacks. -- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 00:43, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
“ | By 1 August 2008, South Ossetian separatists had begun shelling Georgian villages, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the area.[32][33][34][35][36] According to Håkan Karlsson the South Ossetian forces were responsible for breaking the 1992 ceasefire agreement.[37][38] The EU fact-finding mission report says that open hostilities started with a large-scale Georgian operation against Tskhinvali on 7 August.[39] The declared goal of the operation was putting an end to Ossetia attacks and restoring order[40] and the Georgians took control of most of Tskhinvali in hours.
The official position of Georgia which is shared by some experts is that Russian troops had illicitly crossed the Russo-Georgian state border and advanced into the South Ossetian conflict zone by 7 August before the Georgian military response.[38][41][42][43][44] According to other sources there was no armed attack by Russia before the Georgian invasion and that the Georgian claims of large-scale presence of Russian troops in South Ossetia "could not be substantiated."[39] |
” |
comment - Question isn't worded properly for RFC, but I would lean towards basic facts for the lede. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 00:00, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
It looks like we are not going to get any more comments. I'll try to summarise the received feedback
I'll try to come up with a version which takes this into account. I'd also be happy if someone else takes the initiative. Alaexis ¿question? 21:04, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Kober I'm for making the lede more concise but these changes have major issues. By moving the information from the EU report to a separate section you left only one position in the lede (that Russian forces moved into SO before the Georgian attack) which violates NPOV. Alaexis ¿question? 19:48, 12 November 2021 (UTC) By the way, the changes were discussed at length a few months ago, so now a case must be made for any changes to the current consensus version. Alaexis ¿question? 20:11, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
The Wall Street Journal, The Guardian, the CNN, the Financial Times, the Parliament of Canada, the Library of Congress and the US Army are pretty much mainstream sources. The argument that the United States Army Special Operations Command, Estonian National Defence College and German Marshall Fund-funded Romanian think-tank are biased because they don't support the Russian POV and EU report is reliable due to its pro-Russian bias is pretty weak. The Moscow Times says that Russian-installed president of South Ossetia has confirmed the deployment of the Russian troops before the Georgian counterattack on Tskhinvali.
The pro-Russian view is not mainstream. Wikipedia requires that the lede must reflect mainstream views and not place too much importance on the fringe views. The EU report has long been found to be unreliable source and had deliberately omitted certain facts to make Georgia look like the aggressor as evidenced by the sources added by Kober. Alaexis has not presented one shred of evidence that anti-Russian sources are not reliable, just his personal opinion. Therefore it's the EU report that should be deleted from the lede as unreliable.
The language used by Alaexis is not neutral. "Georgian invasion" in the lede is pretty biased wording because it disregards the fact that South Ossetia was recognised as Georgian territory by Russia in early August 2008. Generally, invasion refers to one country's army taking over a piece of land in another country. About half of the territory claimed by South Ossetia was already controlled by Georgia before August 8. "Georgian attack" mentioned by Alaexis in this discussion is not a neutral statement. The war was started by South Ossetia by launching an attack on the Georgian-controlled areas and therefore Georgia's move was a retaliation, not invasion. The current version is not "consensus version" because only two Russian editors were edti-warring the POV changes months ago and one other editor was resisting them with numerous solid arguments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.10.116.84 ( talk) 16:50, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
Canome, can you explain why you removed referenced content from the lede? The source for the passage that you removed is The Daily Telegraph. Alaexis ¿question? 11:44, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources which say that there are differing opinions on the responsibility for starting the hostilities.
1. Warning about War: Conflict, Persuasion and Foreign Policy by Christoph O. Meyer, Chiara De Franco, Florian Otto, published in 2019. See p. 215
“ | There is substantial evidence, albeit contested by some, that the war was triggered by a surprise attack by Georgian armed forces on Tskhinvali | ” |
2. Towards Global Justice: Sovereignty in an Interdependent World by Simona Ţuţuianu, published in 2012, p. 77
“ | In the case of the war between Russia and Georgia in August 2008, there are numerous interpretations regarding the responsibility of initiating the hostilities | ” |
3. The Making of Modern Georgia, 1918-2012 by Stephen F. Jones, published in 2014, p. 54
“ | ...Russia and Georgia clashed in a five-day war after Georgian troops, following an intensive exchange of fire and an anticipated invasion by Russian forces, attempted to assert control over the breakaway region of South Ossetia | ” |
The current version ignores this complexity and presents only one view: that Russia invaded SO and Georgia responded to it. It's a clear violation of WP:NPOV. Alaexis ¿question? 12:24, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
Speaking of Wikipedia policies, read WP:FRINGE and WP:GEVAL. Just because there are differing views from the mainstream view, this does not mean that they should be treated equally. You found some biased/unreliable source making extraordinary claim that "There is substantial evidence, albeit contested by some, that the war was triggered by a surprise attack by Georgian armed forces on Tskhinvali." What kind of substantial evidence? There simply can not be such evidence because there is an evidence that the Ossetians initiated the attacks on the Georgian villages and Georgia was not preparing to attack Tskhinvali in August 2008. The U.S. intel leaked by WikiLeaks is cited in the article. It states: "All evidence available to the country team supports [Georgian President Mikheil] Saakashvili’s statement that this fight was not Georgia’s original intention." It also states: "As late as 22:30 Georgian Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Foreign Affairs officials were still hopeful that the unilateral cease-fire announced by President Saakashvili will hold. Only when the South Ossetians opened up with artillery on Georgian villages, did the offensive to take Tskhinvali begin." If Saakashvili was planning an invasion of South Ossetia in August 2008, surely the Americans would have known it and mentioned it in their cables.
The mainstream view is that the Ossetians provoked the war and Russia had already started an invasion of Georgia or was ready for launching an invasion before the Georgian counterattack on August 8. This is supported by the pro-government Russian sources linked by an IP editor.
1. The report published in 2020 by History (American TV network).
“ | After accusations of aggression from both sides throughout the spring and summer, South Ossetian troops violated the ceasefire by shelling Georgian villages on August 1. Sporadic fighting and shelling ensued over the coming days, until Saakashvili declared a ceasefire on August 7. Just before midnight, seeing that the separatists would not, in fact, cease firing, Georgia’s military launched an attack on Tskhinvali in South Ossetia. Russian troops had already entered South Ossetia—illegally—and responded quickly to the Georgian attack. | ” |
2. The report published in 2020 by The Jerusalem Post.
“ | The 2008 Russo-Georgian War took place on August 7-12, over the regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in Georgia, where there were pro-Russian separatists. Amid deteriorating relations between Tbilisi’s pro-Western government and Moscow, Russia stopped its sanctions on the separatists. When South Ossetian separatists shelled Georgian villages, the Georgian Army entered the area to stop them. Russia invaded Georgia by land, sea and air, claiming that they were enforcing the peace in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. | ” |
3. The report published in 2020 by InformNapalm.
“ | On the eve of the invasion of Georgia, Russia conducted large-scale military exercises Caucasus-2008. Increasing the intensity of provocations, Moscow was waiting for a good excuse for open aggression. Their excuse was the Georgian army’s attempt to put an end to the Ossetian shelling and the creeping occupation of the border territories. | ” |
4. The report by UCLA's Foreign Affairs Magazine.
“ | On August 7th, 2008, the leaders of the Russian Federation shocked the world and made the controversial decision to mobilize and invade Georgia, a small, sovereign nation located in the Caucasus Mountains just south of Russia. The Georgian military had been engaged with separatists from the regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia for just under a week, yet by the time a large batch of Russian military personnel entered their territory through the mountainous Roki tunnel at 11:00 PM, it was too late. | ” |
5. The report by Agence France-Presse.
“ | On August 8, 2008, the Russian army swept into Georgia - bombing targets and occupying large swathes of territory - after Tbilisi launched a large-scale military operation against South Ossetian separatist forces who had been shelling Georgian villages in the region. | ” |
6. The report by the Atlantic Council.
“ | On August 7, 2008, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili swiftly responded to the deployment of Russian troops into South Ossetia, which violated Georgian territorial sovereignty. Russia, accusing Georgia of aggression and provoking war, began shelling Georgian villages, with Putin declaring “war has started.” | ” |
The version before your revert reflected the majority mainstream view on the subject and did not give undue weight to a fringe statement by the report not endorsed by scholarly consensus. Therefore that version is the NPOV version. Canome ( talk) 17:00, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
-- Labrang ( talk) 02:52, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
Plenty of sources say that the Georgian attack preceded the Russian invasion (see the list in the beginning of this section). Therefore per WP:NPOV this position should be mentioned in the lede. Now it's not, so considering that the discussion is stuck now, we'll need an RfC. Alaexis ¿question? 08:59, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
The first source provided in this discussion is erroneous since it makes an extraordinary claim that "There is substantial evidence, albeit contested by some, that the war was triggered by a surprise attack by Georgian armed forces on Tskhinvali." Where this evidence can be seen? The evidence that Russian troops invaded Tskhinvali first is available to the public and is pretty damning. More than 13 years have passed since the 2008 conflict and no Georgian soldier has admitted so far that the Georgian Army was preparing to start a war in South Ossetia in August 2008 so how can such evidence imputing Georgia really exist? The only available source containing the testimonies of the Georgian soldiers is this article.
“ | Georgian military sources now state that an attack had earlier been expected from Abkhazia, but never from South Ossetia. "We were indeed preparing for something in May when Georgia was denied NATO membership [a Membership Action Plan]," said the 4th Brigade senior lieutenant, but there "were no preparations made" for a military operation in South Ossetia this August. "Many were on vacation and we were preparing to go Iraq in the fall." | ” |
The following source provides the evidence that Georgia was not planning to start a war in August 2008:
“ | At that time most of the decision makers, the President, the Minister of Defense, the President of the Parliament and others from the inner circle of decision, were out of the country. This alongside the fact that 2000 of the best Georgian troops were in Iraq at the time, was the most solid evidence that there was no Georgian plan of attack. | ” |
American sources agree that the presence of the Georgian government and the best troops out of the country is evidence that Georgia did not intend to start the war in August 2008.
“ | The absence of Georgia’s best troops has also been cited as being one of the clearest signs that Tbilisi did not have a premeditated intention to get into a war, and certainly not one with the Russian military. It stands to reason that if that had been Georgia’s aim, it would have much preferred to have their combat-tested, well-trained battalions in Georgia instead of watching their country get trampled from TV screens in Mesopotamia. | ” |
The Russian propaganda is real and aims to blame Georgia for the war and obfuscate the crimes committed by Russia. The following source gives a detailed explanation how the Russian propaganda works.
“ | The August 7th start date is also debated as part of a determined Russian effort to maintain a strategic narrative of being the victim of Georgian aggression. | ” |
“ | Russia flew approximately fifty Russian reporters to Tskhinvali just days before the August 7th invasion.250 The presence of these reporters and the lack of Western war correspondents enabled Putin to control the narrative that was disseminated through Western news media outlets, and subsequently shape the opinions of the Western public and policy makers. The Russian narrative of Georgian aggression against South Ossetians, who were conveniently now Russian citizens due to the liberal issuance of Russian passports in the years prior to 2008, and Russian steps to stop “genocide” in progress is still the Russian version of the start of the war. This narrative, carefully managed by Russian reporters, and personally delivered to U.S. President George W. Bush by Vladimir Putin, the freshly appointed Russian Prime Minister, at the opening ceremony to the Beijing Olympic Games, largely succeeded in minimizing any outcry from the West.251 The Russian narrative dismisses claims that the Russians deliberately invaded Georgia | ” |
One can easily see how some Wikipedia editors dismiss the fact that Russia invaded Georgia on August 7 without any provocation just like the Russian propaganda does. Neutral observers will of course connect the dots. The argument that "Plenty of sources say that the Georgian attack preceded the Russian invasion" is not a compelling one to push the Russian POV. Plenty of sources can be found that state that Euromaidan was a coup d'état by Ukrainian fascists and local Russian-speaking patriots of Donbass foiled a genocide attempt by illegitimate Kiev junta with their bare hands. But WP policies such as WP:Gevаl are in place to prevent pushing of such revisionist propaganda sources. If some editors continue to argue for the pro-Russian POV under the guise of the NPOV just like they have been doing for years, they will benefit from a quick trip to WP:ANI or WP:AE and topic ban from Russian topic area.
Labrang's version added a mention of the ceasefire on late August 7 which was violated by the Ossetians. Such excessive details are not suitable for the lede, since the lede had already determined that Georgians responded to the Ossetian attacks which began on August 1. The lede currently also describes the start of the Russian invasion on August 7 as being insisted by Georgia. But the cited sources do not date the start of the invasion on August 7 because Georgia said so. They specifically refer to the testimonies of the Russian troops as evidence. The infamous EU report is not a reliable source as the discussion here has already determined it was written under the influence of the Russian propaganda, so it is not suitable for the inclusion in the lede. The previous version was more neutral and succinct and to the point. 68.237.83.40 ( talk) 15:53, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
In the Prelude section, April-July 2008, there is an image for "Situation in Georgia before the war." The legend for the image could be improved: a. the green area of the map does not have a legend description, b. the grey legend item does not appear in the map, c. the word "zone" in the legend does not fit within the border of the image, d. the conflict areas circled by thin blue lines, are poorly contrasted with the river blue lines and the sea edge blue lines. SquashEngineer ( talk) 13:21, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
Due to the invasion of the Eastern European Nation of Ukraine by Russian Federation (a unilateral act of a UN Nation which received widespread world condemnation in 2022), we did go back to Russia and the Nation of Georgia in 2008. Russia legislature (the Duma) used the same "Russian-backed separatist provinces" as does this wikipedia to claim it did not violate Georgia's sovereign borders, called Georgia's regional governments rebel entities of theirs (large Russian country), and continues to claim that Georgia is not an independent Nation similar to their claims to new US ambassadors that Ukraine is not a separate Nation. Regretfully, we also detoured to Russia and Chechyna, and atrocities at the city of Grozny. 2603:7081:2000:3EF3:652E:C1DE:FBC2:3F24 ( talk) 16:17, 5 April 2022 (UTC)JARacino 2603:7081:2000:3EF3:652E:C1DE:FBC2:3F24 ( talk) 16:17, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
Not understanding how someone can say there were "no issues" with including that controversial line from EU report when this talk page shows that is exactly what the issue was all along. Huge multi hundred page report say many contradictory things, privileging one line that Russia likes to hear over hundreds others is very undue. Please let not hide behind this RFC, which apparently was not even formulated correctly and also from what I see did not provide grounds for including this undue single liner from the report. The EU report itself implies focusing on this is undue, in their own words:
"This Report shows that any explanation of the origins of the conflict cannot focus solely on the artillery attack on Tskhinvali in the night of 7/8 August" [5]
Despite this from report writers themselves, it seem we keep going in the direction of making that one line about artillery attack a centerpiece, which seem undue.-- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 23:03, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
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I'm not sure why you not content with current version, which includes most of your additions. For example, look at this sentence "Other sources say that there was no armed attack by Russia before the Georgian invasion and that the Georgian claims of large-scale presence of Russian troops in South Ossetia could not be substantiated." The fact that it uses "Georgian invasion" is very strong wording and makes clear different viewpoint, I think you should leave at that because inserting anything more is simply tilting things too much in way that is undue. Considering report itself says that "any explanation of the origins of the conflict cannot focus solely on the artillery attack on Tskhinvali", showcasing that as definitive proof of when "open hostilities" began is questionable and undue. Current version based on your addition seem the most reasonable and sustainable. -- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 09:14, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
In particular, the article contains the assertion that the act of aggression came from the Russian side. And cited as sources only links to articles in biased media, and not a single INDEPENDENT source. In the meantime, as in the very first days of the conflict, an independent commission was created, which unequivocally recognized the guilt of Georgia: the military used cluster munitions to bomb civilians in Tskhinval. Links: http://www.weaponslaw.org/cases/ceu-iiffmcg-report-2009 https://www.mpil.de/files/pdf4/IIFFMCG_Volume_I2.pdf
Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia (September 2009). — Volume I. Архивная копия от 5 марта 2016 на Wayback Machine — The Conflict in Georgia in August 2008. — P. 11. — «The shelling of Tskhinvali by the Georgian armed forces during the night of 7 to 8 August 2008 marked the beginning of the large-scale armed conflict in Georgia, yet it was only the culminating point of a long period of increasing tensions, provocations and incidents.»
In addition, Russian peacekeeping forces were stationed on the territory of South Ossetia. They were there with the PERMISSION OF BOTH PARTIES (Georgia and South Ossetia) in order to stop and prevent bloodshed. The locations of these units were also subjected to shelling from Georgia. To which Russia was obliged to respond, which was done. Blatant lies in the article and distortion of facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reveal lies1 ( talk • contribs) 19:04, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
RUS Знаменитая надпись - «Товарищи грузины, учитесь военному делу настоящим образом. Приедем - проверим!» 71 гвардейский мотострелковый полк
ENG (Google tranlate) The famous inscription - “Comrade Georgians, learn military science in a real way. We'll come and check it out!" 71st Guards Motor Rifle Regiment
Please add to the text of the article.
-- 2.132.233.198 ( talk) 20:05, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi, I found this in the second pharagraph:
"...On 1 August 2008, the Russian-backed South Ossetian forces started shelling Georgian villages, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the area. Intensifying artillery attacks by the South Ossetians broke a 1992 ceasefire agreement. To put an end to these, the Georgian army units were sent in to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August. On the offensive, Georgian took control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, in hours. Some Russian troops had illicitly crossed the Russo-Georgian state border through the Roki Tunnel and advanced into the South Ossetian conflict zone by 7 August before the large-scale Georgian military response."
The citations to explain the actions of 1st of august are from september (a month later?) and only from one sided references.
Then, presents the Georgian response to be of "military units dispached on 7th august" that were attacked on 8th of august. Poor military units, send to be doomed, when it was stated that the georgian military executed a prepared offensive over Tskhinvali.
"Russia falsely accused Georgia of committing "genocide" and "aggression against South Ossetia"."
Referenced as false by a jpurnalist article only. Not refuted or compared to any other source. It's documented than georgian military fire indiscriminate artillery over the city.
Can you revise the wording and clean the article? As it is, is biased. 190.188.140.133 ( talk) 15:31, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
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The Russian Chief of the General Staff at the time Army General Nikolai Makarov was not included under the Commanders and leaders section on the Russian side. 219.74.157.84 ( talk) 21:30, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
According to the article text itself and the separate article covering the timeline of the war, fighting in the conflict actually started on August 1 rather than August 7. I propose changing the start date in the infobox to August 1st to reflect such. If no one opposes, i'll be bold and do it myself. XavierGreen ( talk) 15:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
Google translate
Leaving Gori, Russian troops left on the walls of the Georgian military base a quote from V. I. Lenin
"Comrades Georgians, study military art in a real way !!! We will come and check !!! 71 Guards SMEs" (71st Red Banner Order of Kutuzov Guards Motorized Rifle Regiment, Khankala)
https://kprf.ru/rus_soc/59486.html
https://www.google.com/search?q=%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%89%D0%B8+%D0%B3%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B+%D1%83%D1%87%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%8C+%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%83+%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%83&rlz=1C1GKLB_enKZ658KZ658&oq=njdfhbob+uhepby&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l2.7475j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 -- 145.255.168.249 ( talk) 20:50, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Per WP:LEDE, the lede should introduce and summarise the topic, mentioning only the most important events. Here the events leading to the war are important and they are also controversial, even the facts that everyone agrees on are interpreted differently. In the article we can write about all that in line with WP:NPOV however in the lede there is no space for that. Therefore I believe that in the lede only the basic facts need to be mentioned. These are the basic facts as described in the EU independent fact-finding mission report about this period:
“ | The beginning of August 2008 was marked by an even further deterioration of the security situation in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone ... During the evening and night of 1-2 August, a series of intense and extensive exchanges of fire including sniper fire and mortar shelling occurred in the ... conflict zone, causing fatalities and casualties ... Beginning in the afternoon of 6 August fire was exchanged along virtually the whole line of contact between the Georgian and South Ossetian sides | ” |
“ | The shelling of Tskhinvali by the Georgian armed forces during the night of 7 to 8 August 2008 marked the beginning of the large-scale armed conflict in Georgia, yet it was only the culminating point of a long period of increasing tensions, provocations and incidents. | ” |
This is not me cherry-picking words from the report, see this Telegraph article for a summary.
In view of all this, I believe that Thucydides411's version is superior as it mentions both SO shelling of Georgian villages and the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali and does not put all the blame for breaking the ceasefire on the SO forces. Alaexis ¿question? 08:28, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
“ | Artillery attacks by pro-Russian separatists broke a 1992 ceasefire agreement. [1] [2] To put an end to these attacks and restore order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August. [3] | ” |
I don[t think this is a problem with sources. It's a problem of some editors wanting what follows Kremlin's favorite talking points and in this case that happens to be the favorite EU report. As for why we may trust OSCE over EU, here's one reason: Russia kicked OSCE out of Georgia by refusing to agree continued mission. Anyone Russia does not want on the ground is likely to be more impartial as far as I understand. And let not start talk about false moral equivalence between Russia and the rest. Also, Håkan Karlsson is a respected academic who does not have political conflict of interest like some EU bureaucrats and also does not come from a country with history of revolving door of officials working for boards of Russian energy companies to make $$$$.-- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 17:14, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
“ | Artillery attacks by pro-Russian separatists broke a 1992 ceasefire agreement.[37][38] With the declared goal of ending these attacks and restoring order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August.[39] Georgians took control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, in hours. | ” |
“ | There were increasing clashes between Georgian troops and South Ossetian paramilitaries in and around Tskhinvali for at least a week before 7 August 2008. On 1 August, five Georgian peacekeepers were wounded in a bomb attack attributed to Ossetian paramilitaries. Heavy fighting in Tskhinvali led to the death of six Ossetians and the wounding of 15 others later that night. More clashes were reported on 6 August, with numerous wounded on both sides. | ” |
@
LeontinaVarlamonva: Please stop making personal attacks. Your
second revert accused either
Alaexis or me of using a typical soviet tactic
, and above, you've accused some editors
of wanting what follows Kremlin's favorite talking points
[sic]. Throwing around these accusations just poisons the atmosphere, and violates one of the central pillars of Wikipedia policy:
WP:CIVIL. I'll also note that reverting the same content
multiple
times could be seen as edit-warring.
As for the content question, the current text uncritically reproduces the Georgian government's version of events, despite the fact that this version is, to be charitable, heavily disputed:
Artillery attacks by pro-Russian separatists broke a 1992 ceasefire agreement. To put an end to these attacks and restore order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August. Georgians took control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, in hours.
First, it blames the South Ossetian separatsists for breaking the 1992 ceasefire, though there is considerable dispute over how the escalation occurred, and at the very least, the fact that both sides fired across the de facto border in the days preceding 7 August 2008 is well documented. Second, the text claims that the Georgian army aimed to end these attacks and restore order
, taking the Georgian government's official (and again, contested) position at face value. An alternative interpretation is that the Georgian army moved in to conquer the territory. It is best to simply leave these sorts of subjective statements out of the lede, and to simply state what happened:
The Georgian army advanced into separatist-held territory in South Ossetia on 7 August, taking control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, in hours.
Finally, the US government outlet Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, which was founded explicitly as an anti-Soviet propaganda station, should not be used a source for contentious statements about geopolitical issues in Eastern Europe - or at least, it should be used sparingly and only with attribution of its statements, as we would do with other opinionated sources. Likewise, I would be wary of using reports produced by the Swedish Defence University.
One more point: the lede claims, Russian troops had illicitly crossed the Russo-Georgian state border and advanced into the South Ossetian conflict zone by 7 August before the Georgian military response.
There are five sources given. The first source (from the Swedish Defence University) actually states the opposite: that Russia responded to the Georgian military's offensive into South Ossetia. The second source (the Moscow Times) discusses Georgian claims that they were responding to a Russian incursion, but does not state that these claims are true. The third source (Chifu) does make this claim, but the report was funded by a US government think tank, the
German Marshall Fund, and it does not cite any sources for its claims. The
report produced by the European Union's fact-finding mission on the war notes the Georgian government's claims that Russian forces entered South Ossetia before the Georgian military began its operation, but the EU report is unable to substantiate nor rule out the Georgian claims (see pp. 220-221). At the very least, the claim that Russian troops entered South Ossetia prior to the conflict, and that the Georgian military operation was a response
, is contentious. It should not be stated in Wikivoice, but should rather be described as an allegation made by the Georgian government and denied by Russia. -
Thucydides411 (
talk)
16:19, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
In early August 2008, the South Ossetian separatists, apparently encouraged by Russia, began shelling Georgian villages in breach of a 1992 armistice and Russian military units illegally entered into South Ossetia.
victimyou're referencing, but the lede contains strongly POV material that states contested Georgian-government claims in Wikivoice, and this is unacceptable. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 16:58, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
“ | Already on 8 August, some seven hours after the start of the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali, Russian troops were pouring through the Roki tunnel to engage Georgian forces. | ” |
“ | Artillery attacks by pro-Russian separatists may have constituted breach of the 1992 ceasefire agreement.[37][38] With the declared goal of ending these attacks and restoring order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August.[39] Georgians took control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, in hours. | ” |
-- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 21:44, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
"The attacks on Georgian villages (Zemo Nikozi, Kvemo Nikozi, Avnevi, Nuli, Ergneti, Eredvi and Zemo Prisi) by South Ossetian forces can be qualified as equivalent to an “attack by the armed forces of a State on the territory of another State”
"As the upper Kodori Valley did not belong to the Abkhaz-controlled territory under the provisions of the Moscow Agreement, the attack against it by Abkhaz units supported by Russian forces constituted an illegal use of force as prohibited by the Ceasefire Agreement"
-- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 17:06, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
There is nothing in that specific part of Karlsson's assessment that the EU report refutes or contests, in fact areas I identified suggest opposite. Not addressing something or not specifically stating is not same as not agreeing with or contesting.-- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 10:27, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
References
Should the lede contain only the basic facts (e.g., "A attacked B and then C bombed D") or also opinions (e.g.,"X broke the ceasefire, Y is responsible for escalation")? For the facts that are disputed, is there a consensus or should we mention disagreements? Alaexis ¿question? 19:41, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
When I say basic facts I mean statements like "Russian army entered South Ossetia", "Georgian villages were ethnically cleansed", "Russia occupied Gori and Poti", "Georgian forces attacked Tskhinvali" etc. (not necessarily in that order). There is no disagreement in reliable sources that all of these events happened. On the other hand, such statements as "open hostilities started with a large-scale Georgian operation against Tskhinvali" [1] or "South Ossetian separatists ... began shelling Georgian villages in breach of a 1992 armistice" [2] express opinions about which there is no widely held consensus. My position is that it's preferable to stick to uncontroversial facts in the lede and mention notable opinions in the body of the article.
A separate issue is how to treat facts about which reliable sources disagree. The main such fact is whether there was a significant presence of Russian forces in South Ossetia before the Georgian attack. The EU fact-finding mission found that Georgian claims of a large-scale presence of Russian armed forces in South Ossetia prior to the Georgian offensive could not be substantiated. [3] On the other hand, certain Hakon Karlsson writes "Russian military units illegally entered into South Ossetia. Georgia rashly responded to these manifestly aggressive actions by attempting to recapture South Ossetia by force." [4]. It has not been demonstrated that one view or the other commands overwhelming support, so I believe both should be mentioned in the lede. Alaexis ¿question? 19:42, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
LeontinaVarlamonva, Thucydides411, please be aware of the RfC. Alaexis ¿question? 19:46, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
“ | The shelling of Tskhinvali by the Georgian armed forces during the night of 7 to 8 August 2008 marked the beginning of the large-scale armed conflict in Georgia | ” |
“ | Open hostilities began with a large-scale Georgian military operation against the town of Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas | ” |
“ | The Mission is not in a position to consider as sufficiently substantiated the Georgian claim concerning a large-scale Russian military incursion into South Ossetia before 8 August 2008 | ” |
Alaexis, I am very confused why you even want to clarify all this in introduction. Currently, introduction does not claim that Russia broke cease-fire or that it invaded Georgia before the Georgian move on Tskinvali. It only talks about the separatist actions, and there has never been any doubt separatists were there all along or that there was shelling from them. Sequence of events is already very clear in the introduction: sporadic shelling, Georgian operation, and then "Russia accused Georgia of "aggression against South Ossetia",[39] and launched a large-scale land, air and sea invasion of Georgia on 8 August with the stated goal of a peace enforcement operation" Nowhere in introduction does it say it was an unprovoked invasion.
"The attacks on Georgian villages (Zemo Nikozi, Kvemo Nikozi, Avnevi, Nuli, Ergneti, Eredvi and Zemo Prisi) by South Ossetian forces can be qualified as equivalent to an “attack by the armed forces of a State on the territory of another State”
and this:
"a violent conflict had already been going on before in South Ossetia,"
But then again I don't think any of this discussion is that necessary because introduction does not say anywhere that Russia attacked first, it only talk about separatist attacks. -- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 00:43, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
“ | By 1 August 2008, South Ossetian separatists had begun shelling Georgian villages, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the area.[32][33][34][35][36] According to Håkan Karlsson the South Ossetian forces were responsible for breaking the 1992 ceasefire agreement.[37][38] The EU fact-finding mission report says that open hostilities started with a large-scale Georgian operation against Tskhinvali on 7 August.[39] The declared goal of the operation was putting an end to Ossetia attacks and restoring order[40] and the Georgians took control of most of Tskhinvali in hours.
The official position of Georgia which is shared by some experts is that Russian troops had illicitly crossed the Russo-Georgian state border and advanced into the South Ossetian conflict zone by 7 August before the Georgian military response.[38][41][42][43][44] According to other sources there was no armed attack by Russia before the Georgian invasion and that the Georgian claims of large-scale presence of Russian troops in South Ossetia "could not be substantiated."[39] |
” |
comment - Question isn't worded properly for RFC, but I would lean towards basic facts for the lede. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 00:00, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
It looks like we are not going to get any more comments. I'll try to summarise the received feedback
I'll try to come up with a version which takes this into account. I'd also be happy if someone else takes the initiative. Alaexis ¿question? 21:04, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Kober I'm for making the lede more concise but these changes have major issues. By moving the information from the EU report to a separate section you left only one position in the lede (that Russian forces moved into SO before the Georgian attack) which violates NPOV. Alaexis ¿question? 19:48, 12 November 2021 (UTC) By the way, the changes were discussed at length a few months ago, so now a case must be made for any changes to the current consensus version. Alaexis ¿question? 20:11, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
The Wall Street Journal, The Guardian, the CNN, the Financial Times, the Parliament of Canada, the Library of Congress and the US Army are pretty much mainstream sources. The argument that the United States Army Special Operations Command, Estonian National Defence College and German Marshall Fund-funded Romanian think-tank are biased because they don't support the Russian POV and EU report is reliable due to its pro-Russian bias is pretty weak. The Moscow Times says that Russian-installed president of South Ossetia has confirmed the deployment of the Russian troops before the Georgian counterattack on Tskhinvali.
The pro-Russian view is not mainstream. Wikipedia requires that the lede must reflect mainstream views and not place too much importance on the fringe views. The EU report has long been found to be unreliable source and had deliberately omitted certain facts to make Georgia look like the aggressor as evidenced by the sources added by Kober. Alaexis has not presented one shred of evidence that anti-Russian sources are not reliable, just his personal opinion. Therefore it's the EU report that should be deleted from the lede as unreliable.
The language used by Alaexis is not neutral. "Georgian invasion" in the lede is pretty biased wording because it disregards the fact that South Ossetia was recognised as Georgian territory by Russia in early August 2008. Generally, invasion refers to one country's army taking over a piece of land in another country. About half of the territory claimed by South Ossetia was already controlled by Georgia before August 8. "Georgian attack" mentioned by Alaexis in this discussion is not a neutral statement. The war was started by South Ossetia by launching an attack on the Georgian-controlled areas and therefore Georgia's move was a retaliation, not invasion. The current version is not "consensus version" because only two Russian editors were edti-warring the POV changes months ago and one other editor was resisting them with numerous solid arguments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.10.116.84 ( talk) 16:50, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
Canome, can you explain why you removed referenced content from the lede? The source for the passage that you removed is The Daily Telegraph. Alaexis ¿question? 11:44, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources which say that there are differing opinions on the responsibility for starting the hostilities.
1. Warning about War: Conflict, Persuasion and Foreign Policy by Christoph O. Meyer, Chiara De Franco, Florian Otto, published in 2019. See p. 215
“ | There is substantial evidence, albeit contested by some, that the war was triggered by a surprise attack by Georgian armed forces on Tskhinvali | ” |
2. Towards Global Justice: Sovereignty in an Interdependent World by Simona Ţuţuianu, published in 2012, p. 77
“ | In the case of the war between Russia and Georgia in August 2008, there are numerous interpretations regarding the responsibility of initiating the hostilities | ” |
3. The Making of Modern Georgia, 1918-2012 by Stephen F. Jones, published in 2014, p. 54
“ | ...Russia and Georgia clashed in a five-day war after Georgian troops, following an intensive exchange of fire and an anticipated invasion by Russian forces, attempted to assert control over the breakaway region of South Ossetia | ” |
The current version ignores this complexity and presents only one view: that Russia invaded SO and Georgia responded to it. It's a clear violation of WP:NPOV. Alaexis ¿question? 12:24, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
Speaking of Wikipedia policies, read WP:FRINGE and WP:GEVAL. Just because there are differing views from the mainstream view, this does not mean that they should be treated equally. You found some biased/unreliable source making extraordinary claim that "There is substantial evidence, albeit contested by some, that the war was triggered by a surprise attack by Georgian armed forces on Tskhinvali." What kind of substantial evidence? There simply can not be such evidence because there is an evidence that the Ossetians initiated the attacks on the Georgian villages and Georgia was not preparing to attack Tskhinvali in August 2008. The U.S. intel leaked by WikiLeaks is cited in the article. It states: "All evidence available to the country team supports [Georgian President Mikheil] Saakashvili’s statement that this fight was not Georgia’s original intention." It also states: "As late as 22:30 Georgian Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Foreign Affairs officials were still hopeful that the unilateral cease-fire announced by President Saakashvili will hold. Only when the South Ossetians opened up with artillery on Georgian villages, did the offensive to take Tskhinvali begin." If Saakashvili was planning an invasion of South Ossetia in August 2008, surely the Americans would have known it and mentioned it in their cables.
The mainstream view is that the Ossetians provoked the war and Russia had already started an invasion of Georgia or was ready for launching an invasion before the Georgian counterattack on August 8. This is supported by the pro-government Russian sources linked by an IP editor.
1. The report published in 2020 by History (American TV network).
“ | After accusations of aggression from both sides throughout the spring and summer, South Ossetian troops violated the ceasefire by shelling Georgian villages on August 1. Sporadic fighting and shelling ensued over the coming days, until Saakashvili declared a ceasefire on August 7. Just before midnight, seeing that the separatists would not, in fact, cease firing, Georgia’s military launched an attack on Tskhinvali in South Ossetia. Russian troops had already entered South Ossetia—illegally—and responded quickly to the Georgian attack. | ” |
2. The report published in 2020 by The Jerusalem Post.
“ | The 2008 Russo-Georgian War took place on August 7-12, over the regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in Georgia, where there were pro-Russian separatists. Amid deteriorating relations between Tbilisi’s pro-Western government and Moscow, Russia stopped its sanctions on the separatists. When South Ossetian separatists shelled Georgian villages, the Georgian Army entered the area to stop them. Russia invaded Georgia by land, sea and air, claiming that they were enforcing the peace in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. | ” |
3. The report published in 2020 by InformNapalm.
“ | On the eve of the invasion of Georgia, Russia conducted large-scale military exercises Caucasus-2008. Increasing the intensity of provocations, Moscow was waiting for a good excuse for open aggression. Their excuse was the Georgian army’s attempt to put an end to the Ossetian shelling and the creeping occupation of the border territories. | ” |
4. The report by UCLA's Foreign Affairs Magazine.
“ | On August 7th, 2008, the leaders of the Russian Federation shocked the world and made the controversial decision to mobilize and invade Georgia, a small, sovereign nation located in the Caucasus Mountains just south of Russia. The Georgian military had been engaged with separatists from the regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia for just under a week, yet by the time a large batch of Russian military personnel entered their territory through the mountainous Roki tunnel at 11:00 PM, it was too late. | ” |
5. The report by Agence France-Presse.
“ | On August 8, 2008, the Russian army swept into Georgia - bombing targets and occupying large swathes of territory - after Tbilisi launched a large-scale military operation against South Ossetian separatist forces who had been shelling Georgian villages in the region. | ” |
6. The report by the Atlantic Council.
“ | On August 7, 2008, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili swiftly responded to the deployment of Russian troops into South Ossetia, which violated Georgian territorial sovereignty. Russia, accusing Georgia of aggression and provoking war, began shelling Georgian villages, with Putin declaring “war has started.” | ” |
The version before your revert reflected the majority mainstream view on the subject and did not give undue weight to a fringe statement by the report not endorsed by scholarly consensus. Therefore that version is the NPOV version. Canome ( talk) 17:00, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
-- Labrang ( talk) 02:52, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
Plenty of sources say that the Georgian attack preceded the Russian invasion (see the list in the beginning of this section). Therefore per WP:NPOV this position should be mentioned in the lede. Now it's not, so considering that the discussion is stuck now, we'll need an RfC. Alaexis ¿question? 08:59, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
The first source provided in this discussion is erroneous since it makes an extraordinary claim that "There is substantial evidence, albeit contested by some, that the war was triggered by a surprise attack by Georgian armed forces on Tskhinvali." Where this evidence can be seen? The evidence that Russian troops invaded Tskhinvali first is available to the public and is pretty damning. More than 13 years have passed since the 2008 conflict and no Georgian soldier has admitted so far that the Georgian Army was preparing to start a war in South Ossetia in August 2008 so how can such evidence imputing Georgia really exist? The only available source containing the testimonies of the Georgian soldiers is this article.
“ | Georgian military sources now state that an attack had earlier been expected from Abkhazia, but never from South Ossetia. "We were indeed preparing for something in May when Georgia was denied NATO membership [a Membership Action Plan]," said the 4th Brigade senior lieutenant, but there "were no preparations made" for a military operation in South Ossetia this August. "Many were on vacation and we were preparing to go Iraq in the fall." | ” |
The following source provides the evidence that Georgia was not planning to start a war in August 2008:
“ | At that time most of the decision makers, the President, the Minister of Defense, the President of the Parliament and others from the inner circle of decision, were out of the country. This alongside the fact that 2000 of the best Georgian troops were in Iraq at the time, was the most solid evidence that there was no Georgian plan of attack. | ” |
American sources agree that the presence of the Georgian government and the best troops out of the country is evidence that Georgia did not intend to start the war in August 2008.
“ | The absence of Georgia’s best troops has also been cited as being one of the clearest signs that Tbilisi did not have a premeditated intention to get into a war, and certainly not one with the Russian military. It stands to reason that if that had been Georgia’s aim, it would have much preferred to have their combat-tested, well-trained battalions in Georgia instead of watching their country get trampled from TV screens in Mesopotamia. | ” |
The Russian propaganda is real and aims to blame Georgia for the war and obfuscate the crimes committed by Russia. The following source gives a detailed explanation how the Russian propaganda works.
“ | The August 7th start date is also debated as part of a determined Russian effort to maintain a strategic narrative of being the victim of Georgian aggression. | ” |
“ | Russia flew approximately fifty Russian reporters to Tskhinvali just days before the August 7th invasion.250 The presence of these reporters and the lack of Western war correspondents enabled Putin to control the narrative that was disseminated through Western news media outlets, and subsequently shape the opinions of the Western public and policy makers. The Russian narrative of Georgian aggression against South Ossetians, who were conveniently now Russian citizens due to the liberal issuance of Russian passports in the years prior to 2008, and Russian steps to stop “genocide” in progress is still the Russian version of the start of the war. This narrative, carefully managed by Russian reporters, and personally delivered to U.S. President George W. Bush by Vladimir Putin, the freshly appointed Russian Prime Minister, at the opening ceremony to the Beijing Olympic Games, largely succeeded in minimizing any outcry from the West.251 The Russian narrative dismisses claims that the Russians deliberately invaded Georgia | ” |
One can easily see how some Wikipedia editors dismiss the fact that Russia invaded Georgia on August 7 without any provocation just like the Russian propaganda does. Neutral observers will of course connect the dots. The argument that "Plenty of sources say that the Georgian attack preceded the Russian invasion" is not a compelling one to push the Russian POV. Plenty of sources can be found that state that Euromaidan was a coup d'état by Ukrainian fascists and local Russian-speaking patriots of Donbass foiled a genocide attempt by illegitimate Kiev junta with their bare hands. But WP policies such as WP:Gevаl are in place to prevent pushing of such revisionist propaganda sources. If some editors continue to argue for the pro-Russian POV under the guise of the NPOV just like they have been doing for years, they will benefit from a quick trip to WP:ANI or WP:AE and topic ban from Russian topic area.
Labrang's version added a mention of the ceasefire on late August 7 which was violated by the Ossetians. Such excessive details are not suitable for the lede, since the lede had already determined that Georgians responded to the Ossetian attacks which began on August 1. The lede currently also describes the start of the Russian invasion on August 7 as being insisted by Georgia. But the cited sources do not date the start of the invasion on August 7 because Georgia said so. They specifically refer to the testimonies of the Russian troops as evidence. The infamous EU report is not a reliable source as the discussion here has already determined it was written under the influence of the Russian propaganda, so it is not suitable for the inclusion in the lede. The previous version was more neutral and succinct and to the point. 68.237.83.40 ( talk) 15:53, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
In the Prelude section, April-July 2008, there is an image for "Situation in Georgia before the war." The legend for the image could be improved: a. the green area of the map does not have a legend description, b. the grey legend item does not appear in the map, c. the word "zone" in the legend does not fit within the border of the image, d. the conflict areas circled by thin blue lines, are poorly contrasted with the river blue lines and the sea edge blue lines. SquashEngineer ( talk) 13:21, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
Due to the invasion of the Eastern European Nation of Ukraine by Russian Federation (a unilateral act of a UN Nation which received widespread world condemnation in 2022), we did go back to Russia and the Nation of Georgia in 2008. Russia legislature (the Duma) used the same "Russian-backed separatist provinces" as does this wikipedia to claim it did not violate Georgia's sovereign borders, called Georgia's regional governments rebel entities of theirs (large Russian country), and continues to claim that Georgia is not an independent Nation similar to their claims to new US ambassadors that Ukraine is not a separate Nation. Regretfully, we also detoured to Russia and Chechyna, and atrocities at the city of Grozny. 2603:7081:2000:3EF3:652E:C1DE:FBC2:3F24 ( talk) 16:17, 5 April 2022 (UTC)JARacino 2603:7081:2000:3EF3:652E:C1DE:FBC2:3F24 ( talk) 16:17, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
Not understanding how someone can say there were "no issues" with including that controversial line from EU report when this talk page shows that is exactly what the issue was all along. Huge multi hundred page report say many contradictory things, privileging one line that Russia likes to hear over hundreds others is very undue. Please let not hide behind this RFC, which apparently was not even formulated correctly and also from what I see did not provide grounds for including this undue single liner from the report. The EU report itself implies focusing on this is undue, in their own words:
"This Report shows that any explanation of the origins of the conflict cannot focus solely on the artillery attack on Tskhinvali in the night of 7/8 August" [5]
Despite this from report writers themselves, it seem we keep going in the direction of making that one line about artillery attack a centerpiece, which seem undue.-- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 23:03, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
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I'm not sure why you not content with current version, which includes most of your additions. For example, look at this sentence "Other sources say that there was no armed attack by Russia before the Georgian invasion and that the Georgian claims of large-scale presence of Russian troops in South Ossetia could not be substantiated." The fact that it uses "Georgian invasion" is very strong wording and makes clear different viewpoint, I think you should leave at that because inserting anything more is simply tilting things too much in way that is undue. Considering report itself says that "any explanation of the origins of the conflict cannot focus solely on the artillery attack on Tskhinvali", showcasing that as definitive proof of when "open hostilities" began is questionable and undue. Current version based on your addition seem the most reasonable and sustainable. -- LeontinaVarlamonva ( talk) 09:14, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
In particular, the article contains the assertion that the act of aggression came from the Russian side. And cited as sources only links to articles in biased media, and not a single INDEPENDENT source. In the meantime, as in the very first days of the conflict, an independent commission was created, which unequivocally recognized the guilt of Georgia: the military used cluster munitions to bomb civilians in Tskhinval. Links: http://www.weaponslaw.org/cases/ceu-iiffmcg-report-2009 https://www.mpil.de/files/pdf4/IIFFMCG_Volume_I2.pdf
Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia (September 2009). — Volume I. Архивная копия от 5 марта 2016 на Wayback Machine — The Conflict in Georgia in August 2008. — P. 11. — «The shelling of Tskhinvali by the Georgian armed forces during the night of 7 to 8 August 2008 marked the beginning of the large-scale armed conflict in Georgia, yet it was only the culminating point of a long period of increasing tensions, provocations and incidents.»
In addition, Russian peacekeeping forces were stationed on the territory of South Ossetia. They were there with the PERMISSION OF BOTH PARTIES (Georgia and South Ossetia) in order to stop and prevent bloodshed. The locations of these units were also subjected to shelling from Georgia. To which Russia was obliged to respond, which was done. Blatant lies in the article and distortion of facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reveal lies1 ( talk • contribs) 19:04, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
RUS Знаменитая надпись - «Товарищи грузины, учитесь военному делу настоящим образом. Приедем - проверим!» 71 гвардейский мотострелковый полк
ENG (Google tranlate) The famous inscription - “Comrade Georgians, learn military science in a real way. We'll come and check it out!" 71st Guards Motor Rifle Regiment
Please add to the text of the article.
-- 2.132.233.198 ( talk) 20:05, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi, I found this in the second pharagraph:
"...On 1 August 2008, the Russian-backed South Ossetian forces started shelling Georgian villages, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the area. Intensifying artillery attacks by the South Ossetians broke a 1992 ceasefire agreement. To put an end to these, the Georgian army units were sent in to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August. On the offensive, Georgian took control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, in hours. Some Russian troops had illicitly crossed the Russo-Georgian state border through the Roki Tunnel and advanced into the South Ossetian conflict zone by 7 August before the large-scale Georgian military response."
The citations to explain the actions of 1st of august are from september (a month later?) and only from one sided references.
Then, presents the Georgian response to be of "military units dispached on 7th august" that were attacked on 8th of august. Poor military units, send to be doomed, when it was stated that the georgian military executed a prepared offensive over Tskhinvali.
"Russia falsely accused Georgia of committing "genocide" and "aggression against South Ossetia"."
Referenced as false by a jpurnalist article only. Not refuted or compared to any other source. It's documented than georgian military fire indiscriminate artillery over the city.
Can you revise the wording and clean the article? As it is, is biased. 190.188.140.133 ( talk) 15:31, 26 September 2022 (UTC)