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The lead section ends with the following sentence: "The Russian military has occupied Abkhazia and South Ossetia in violation of the ceasefire since August 2008.[32]" However, the citation leads to an article entitled "Georgia accuses Russia of violating international law over South Ossetia". Is Wikipedia blindly accepting one party's accusations as proof, without giving fair space for the other side's point of view? The sentence does not accurately report the information in the citation and is a blatant violation of Wikipedia's neutrality policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.1.158.251 ( talk) 02:21, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
The lede states that "Ossetian separatists began shelling Georgian villages on 1 August, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the region. The Georgian Army was sent to the conflict zone on 7 August to defend civilians and restore order. Most of Tskhinvali, capital of the self-proclaimed Republic of South Ossetia, was recaptured in hours. Georgia later said it was also responding to Russia moving non-peacekeeping units into the country."
This is in clear contradiction with the findings of the Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia. [1] Here is an excerpt (p 19, 14.)
"Open hostilities began with a large-scale Georgian military operation against the town of Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas, launched in the night of 7 to 8 August 2008. Operations started with a massive Georgian artillery attack. At the very outset of the operation the Commander of the Georgian contingent to the Joint Peacekeeping Forces (JPKF), Brigadier General Mamuka Kurashvili, stated that the operation was aimed at restoring the constitutional order in the territory of South Ossetia."
See also [2]. The report dates from 2009 so that, imho, a complete overhaul of the article is long overdue.
This is one of the worst articles I've seen on Wikipedia. Its biased, its selective in its presentation of sources, and there is literally no attempt at any sort of a balanced presentation. The introduction is ten times as long as it should be. A background section which starts dealing the mongol invasion and events in the 10th Century to deal with a short war in 2008 is absurd. The section "Geopolitical impact" is currently being used for what amount to political speeches. A "..." is used to completely distort a quote. The section "Humanitarian impact and war crimes" depends far too much on one source and is far too long. Especially in the cases where there are articles covering a particular subject, there is no need to go over the same subject at such incredible length in the main article. The Military Analysis sections are incredibly confused, biased and make no sense when read. The Georgian analysis starts out praising the Georgian military for shooting down aircraft. The Russian section starts out with "performed poorly", then moves on to accuse a minister of "negligence", then goes on to describe the "poor performance of the Russian Air Force". The "see also" section is surreal. The first two entries on the list are the German occupation of Czechoslovakia and the Shelling of Mainila. Most of the article should be shortened and rewritten. Since the narratives with regard to the start of the war are in absolute conflict with each other, its probably going to be necessary to present both of them. 75.17.127.27 ( talk) 01:26, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
This is indeed one of the worst articles on Wikipedia. Some parts even read like an editorial with dubious claims which cannot be verified. For example, the article claims that there is abundant evidence, including some in Russian media, that Russia actually started the war. The article does not specifiy where this "abundant evidence" can be found, and when checking the source for the claim, it turned out to be an opinion piece.
Is it that difficult to understand that opinion pieces and editorials can not be used as sources for claims that seek to present facts?
In the lead of the article one can read that the South Ossetians destroyed most ethnic Georgian villages in South Ossetia and were responsible for an ethnic cleansing of Georgians. This terrible allegation doesn't even cite a source!
Seriously, the user(s) writing this stuff shouldn't be editing on Wikipedia. — 37 (talk) 00:43, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
There was a lot of POV activity regarding this article since the very start. The neutrality was allways highly questionable and statements or claims mostly favoured the Russian standpoint at the beginning - neglecting and rejecting anything that might support or backup the Gerogian POV alltogheter. The ongoing cyber war is still not concluded. That way it is difficult to establish some decent neutral and solely fact based sections in response to claims and statements. If you have information with actual, topical, unbiased and preferably timely and valid sources that can varify events as they took place you are welcome to insert them. It's not like there is any restriction policy regarding that on wikipedia. But when you talk about "balance" and sources being "selective" it factualy goes both ways as everyone can see in the history. New studies are more important from a researchers perspective than just inserting some fact finding missions that were concluded in a matter of weeks after the conflict. Just complaining about replacing bias with what you personaly think is more bias is no sufficient complaint. If you are serious about establishing a neutral article, you should A. find valid sources that verify information, disregarding any possible bias from either side and B. when there are two opposite claims, then not just one, but both should be regarded, when they are further backed by valid sources. A source that concludes something backed by further reference and evidence - which happens to not saturate ones personal belief or POV - is not a biased source. It's a valid source. Just because you don't like it, doesn't give you the right to delete or replace it. If you can add something that backs up a different position than insert it as a contrast to the first one. That is the only way I see how this dispute can be settled. TheMightyGeneral ( talk) 09:33, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
As I have witnessed the unfold of the war in a live feed by BBC journalist in South Ossetia at the time when the rockets rained down the city before the Russian Army responded next day.
Current TEXT: Russia falsely accused Georgia of "aggression against South Ossetia",[30] and officially launched a large-scale land, air and sea invasion of Georgia on 8 August under the guise of "peace enforcement" operation.
My version: Russia accused Georgia of "aggression against South Ossetia",[30] and officially launched a large-scale land, air and sea invasion of Georgia on 8 August under the guise of "peace enforcement" operation.
The use of the word "falsely" already made judgement for readers who are unaware of the before and afters of the war. I cannot say for sure ALL events but at least I have seen the live footage from a BBC journalist who happened to be in the capital of South Ossetia at the time when the Georgian rockets rained down the city before Russian troops were stomping in next day. Therefore, using the word of "falsely" is not only controversial but also taking the situation out of context unless the author can prove the time, date and place of occurrence. Leave that word out and let the reader make their judgement. For example, after I read to that phrase "falsely accused", I have no more interest to read the rest of the article as I felt it will be biased and the so called "facts or incidents" in the subsequent paragraphs may be falsified World Citizen in New York ( talk) 14:37, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Indeed, there are massive problems here. The latest edit that included the "falsely" ( [2], subsequently edit-warred back in [3] [4] [5]) is just the icing on the cake. Even without that overtly POV addition, the wording of the intro is seriously skewed. Just compare the wording regarding the activities of the two main parties in the lead: the Georgian army "was sent" (passive voice, de-emphasizing agentivity and responsibility) "to defend civilians and restore order" (claiming legitimate goal as an unquestionable fact); Tskhinvali "was captured" (again passive voice). In contrast, Russia "launched an invasion" (active voice, emphasizing aggressive intent) "under the guise of 'peace enforcement' operation" (presenting motivation as false, using scare quotes); Russian forces "battled" Georgian ones (again, emphasizing aggressive agentivity and responsibility of Russian side). All these are covert POV messages through the choice of language alone; not even looking into the choice and weighting of facts and sources. I'm quite disappointed this was passed as GA when all this POV verbiage was already there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:42, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
While the current article is clearly biased in some areas, the arguments presented here are unconstructive or just further POV / mere assumptions and also trying to disqualify certain sources or views with personal complaints about non-relevant subjects as are an author's background etc. If appied, such arguments would apply both ways - see past edits, not solely on the content one dislikes or does not accept - not that it's a valid point in the first place. Such claims regarding single individuals are yet more POV, which negate a constructive discussion alltogheter. So without repeating myself, my statement from above section "POV problems throughout article" also applies here accordingly to the guidelines. Views of both sides are to be regarded especialy when backed up with valid sources and qualified information and research. Further one fact doesn't negate the other. For example: just because Russia responded to the attacks (Russian POV) / counterattacks (Georgian POV) on it's peacekeepers stationed in Tskhinvali, doesn't negate the fact that skirmishes took place days, weeks and months before the outbreak of large scale hostilities between the Georgian Armed Forces and the South Ossetian military. See articles on the timeline of events such as this: /info/en/?search=Timeline_of_the_Russo-Georgian_War. All - especialy certain incidents that took place days before - which contributed to the steady aggravation of tension that ultimately lead to a Georgian military incursion into South Ossetia and it's capital city and open hostilities with the Russian Federation. Give facts and views, but when doing so both sides are to be regarded not just heavily insisted on one position or one particular side of the conflict. TheMightyGeneral ( talk) 10:13, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
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Hey everyone. While I see some problems with this version of the article, what are the reason of deletion of the following parts:
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One issue I raised at the good article eligibility discussion was how the split of Georgia from Soviet Union was described in a different (positively framed) words from a split of South Ossetia from Georgia. I'm copying what I wrote and Kober's response below for convenience.
“ | Intro, paragraph 2. Different words are chosen to describe Georgia's separation from USSR and contemporary South Ossetia's separation from Georgia: "declared independence" vs "left under internationally unrecognised separatist de facto control". | ” |
“ | 1. Georgia's separation from the USSR and SO's secession from Georgia cannot be compared to each other. Despite the fact that Georgia was forcibly sovietized, its separation from the Soviet Union was the right envisaged by the Soviet constitution. South Ossetia was a Soviet-era creation with no constitutionally guaranteed right to secede. Furthermore, Georgia declared independence on the basis of a nationwide referendum which was internationally observed and monitored, while SO's wannabe referendum in 1992 asked question on independence retrospectively, with the exclusion of its Georgian population; the fighting was ongoing and there were no observers and monitors. | ” |
Speaking of the constitution, the law on the procedure of exit of a union republic from the Soviet Union (passed in 1990) required carrying out a referendum in all the autonomous entities in the union republic wishing to secede [6]. So actually the potential separation of autonomous entities from the union republic was envisaged. Alæxis ¿question? 18:08, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
The Title — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.221.12.195 ( talk) 09:21, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
This was primarily a war between Georgia and South Ossetian and Abkhazian Separatists who were supported by Russia. The Kosovo war was primarily a war between Serbia and Montenegro and the UCK that was supported by the US-dominated NATO and not a war between the NATO and Serbia and Montenegro. In the german-speaking Wikipedia the name of the article is Georgian war for example.--- The SBC Guy ( talk) 14:33, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
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Impartiality of source is disputed 73.41.239.230 ( talk) 05:26, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved per WP:SNOW. Combining forms that cannot stand on their own, such as 'Russo', take a hyphen, whereas regular adjectives take an en dash. See MOS:DASH. ( non-admin closure) RGloucester — ☎ 06:32, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
Russo-Georgian War → Russo–Georgian War – As seen with Soviet–Afghan War, Abkhaz–Georgian conflict, etc., en dash is the correct form. RadiculousJ ( talk) 03:06, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
This seems premature to me. The linked source begins with "Georgia accuses Russia ...", which makes it seem like an accusation, not an assertion of fact. The source goes on to say Georgia is accusing Russia of violating international law, which is not the same as the ceasefire agreement. In fact looking at the ceasefire agreement in this article I am not sure what clause Russia is violating here. The source might be cited for a different claim but it doesn't really back up this one. Banedon ( talk) 04:05, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
You are not answering the objections raised, but you are reverting [9]. I'm bringing this to DR/N, please comment [10]. Banedon ( talk) 13:31, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
The following sentence keeps having the underlined portion deleted:
The source for this sentence is:
The source says:
The source for this is an opinion-piece; i.e. it is a statement of the author's opinion. WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV says that "Biased statements of opinion can be presented only with attribution." This has been done by prefacing the statement in the article with "According to political scientist Svante Cornell".-- Toddy1 (talk) 22:39, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
so biased and badly written you wouldnt believe it was protected and allowed to exist in its current state. So pov and anti-russian its laughable — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:201:E700:6D5E:80C2:F710:4224 ( talk) 10:08, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
The EU itself did not publish the 2009 report. The conclusion blaming Georgia is just a personal opinion of Heidi Tagliavini. The 2009 report is a self-published work of the commission hired by the EU. The EU has never endorsed the final report. The 2009 report is outdated and unreliable. Science books of the 19th century were not retracted by their authors after new scientific discoveries were made in the 20th century, however these books do not remain valid sources of information by the mere fact they were not ever recalled. I did not post my thoughts, I cited the reliable and relevant EU source explaining Putin's modus operandi: "The 2008 war began when Russia-controlled fighters in the breakaway South Ossetia region in Georgia escalated skirmishes against Georgian troops." Georgia could not start the large-scale hostilities because they had already been initiated by Putin's stooges. What is the purpose of your edit? It does not add anything of value to the article. I reject your edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.12.160.4 ( talk) 10:43, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
No. This article is correct in general, except that the "war" and the "victory" in this "war" are too mighty words for this conflict. Just ignore russian troll-clowns in talk page and don't let them edit the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.95.245.132 ( talk) 20:51, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
I checked the archives and found no consensus that the BBC and Der Spiegel articles were not allowed. Since the publishers of these respected journals think the story is relevant, I see no reason why we shouldn't. – [12] – per WP:RS and WP:NPOV.
European Union – On 30 September 2009, the EU–sponsored Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia stated that, while preceded by months of mutual provocations, "open hostilities began with a large-scale Georgian military operation against the town of Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas, launched in the night of 7 to 8 August 2008. – "Georgia 'started unjustified war'". BBC News. 30 September 2009. – "EU Report: Independent Experts Blame Georgia for South Ossetia War". Der Spiegel. 21 September 2009.
-- Tobby72 ( talk) 08:36, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
It may be true that many in the EU thought in 2009 that the war was the result of Saakashvili's foolish provocation. However, it is now widely accepted that Putin's stooges started the war and forced Saakashvili's hand. https://euobserver.com/foreign/132425 Anybody, who says otherwise, must be either a victim of Russia's disinformation campaign or a shill. Pro-Russian people are the only cause of disputes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.12.160.5 ( talk) 20:06, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
European Union – On 30 September 2009, the EU–sponsored Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia stated that, while preceded by months of mutual provocations, "open hostilities began with a large-scale Georgian military operation against the town of Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas, launched in the night of 7 to 8 August 2008." – "Georgia 'started unjustified war'". BBC News. 30 September 2009. – "EU Report: Independent Experts Blame Georgia for South Ossetia War". Der Spiegel. 21 September 2009. – However, the ECFR article stated in August 2015: "The very limited Russian information operation were effective in influencing Western (particularly German) public opinion, which soon tilted towards the Russian version of the events. Lines of Russian disinformation even penetrated the EU's own final report, which overplayed the significance of US support and military assistance to Georgia." – " In the shadow of Ukraine: seven years on from Russian-Georgian war". European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR). August 6, 2015.
The EU itself did not publish the 2009 report. The conclusion blaming Georgia is just a personal opinion of Heidi Tagliavini. The 2009 report is a self-published work of the commission hired by the EU. The EU has never endorsed the final report. The 2009 report is outdated and unreliable. Science books of the 19th century were not retracted by their authors after new scientific discoveries were made in the 20th century, however these books do not remain valid sources of information by the mere fact they were not ever recalled. I did not post my thoughts, I cited the reliable and relevant EU source explaining Putin's modus operandi: "The 2008 war began when Russia-controlled fighters in the breakaway South Ossetia region in Georgia escalated skirmishes against Georgian troops." Georgia could not start the large-scale hostilities because they had already been initiated by Putin's stooges. What is the purpose of your edit? It does not add anything of value to the article. I reject your edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.12.160.4 ( talk)
Tobby72, I just looked over this page and I am shocked at how selective you are in which parts of the EU report you cite, and which you don't. You may want to read Wikipedia:Cherrypicking. You seem to have an agenda of making Georgia look bad, while covering Russian tracks, not just on this article, but across wikipedia. The EU report was much more nuanced than you make it seem and much more critical of Russia than you want it to appear. I went through the article history and discovered a rather good summary of the EU report that was apparently deleted by someone. I've attached it below. This is a good description of what the report actually said, as opposed to what you're saying
An international fact-finding commission headed by Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini was established by the EU to determine the causes of the war. The commission was given a budget of 1.6 million euros and relied on the expertise of military officials, political scientists, historians and international law experts, who issued their final report in September 2009. [3]
The report found that Russian and South Ossetian allegations of "genocide" committed by the Georgian side were "neither founded in law nor substantiated by factual evidence." [4] On the contrary, the commission found indicators of ethnic cleansing committed against Georgians themselves, saying that "several elements suggest the conclusion that ethnic cleansing was indeed practised against ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia both during and after the August 2008 conflict." [5] According to the commission, in many cases Russian forces did not act to prevent or stop South Ossetian forces from committing acts of deliberate violence against civilians during the conflict and after the cease-fire. [6]
The commission concluded that South Ossetian separatists could not validly invite Russia to support them militarily. [7] It also held that "Russian military activities against the Georgian military forces were not justified as collective self-defence under international law" [8] and could not be justified as a humanitarian intervention either. [9] According to the report, Russian citizenship, conferred to the vast part of Abkhaz and Ossetian populations, could not be considered legally binding under international law [10], and that the constitutional obligation to protect Russian nationals could not serve as a justification for intervention, since Russian domestic laws could not be invoked as justification for breaching international laws. [11] The commission concluded that Russian intervention in Georgia was not justified as a rescue operation for Russian citizens in Georgia. [12]
The commission held that the South Ossetian attacks on Georgian villages were equivalent to an "attack by the armed forces of a State on the territory of another State" resembling the situations described in Art. 3(a) of UN Resolution 3314. [13] As the South Ossetian attacks were "primarily" directed against Georgian peacekeepers and against Georgian police, this was an attack by the South Ossetian armed forces on the land forces of Georgia. [14] The report notes that Georgia's response to these deadly attacks was justified, albeit at times disproportionate. [15]
The report acknowledged that when Georgia started a military operation in South Ossetia, "a violent conflict had already been going on" [16] and that the operation "was only the culminating point of a long period of increasing tensions, provocations and incidents". [17] The commission saw "... no way to assign overall responsibility for the conflict to one side alone", [18] but it confirmed that Russian military "volunteers or mercenaries" illegally entered Georgia before the start of open hostilities and that there was already some presence of non-peacekeeping Russian troops in South Ossetia before the official intervention was announced by Russia. [19] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1003:B11A:C559:7989:8A95:9887:393C ( talk)
While I agree to the obvious namely that certain people are still trying to make the report and its conclusions seem one sided than they really are - in fact they are not at all, actualy the report concludes with blaming Georgia for the most evident = the disproportionate military intervention in response to seperatist provocations and assaults on civilian as well as law enforcement targets - facts are facts and you'd serve this article better if you simply expanded the section EU report to avoid false conclusions by the reader instead of just continuesly deleting those single excerpts. TheMightyGeneral ( talk) 09:54, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Tobby72 Really not, he has a very valid point here and needless to bring up brief news reports biased or not are not the best sources per se on a complex issue like this. Especialy in regards to whole documents of a fact finding mission etc. Should be expanded. Accurately. TheMightyGeneral ( talk) 10:00, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
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I am unable to find anything in the provided source to back up the following statement:
By August 1, 2008, Ossetian separatists began shelling Georgian villages, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the region. To put an end to these deadly attacks and restore order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August. [20]
I suggest it should be changed to:
By August 1, 2008, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August. [20]
Which is in fact stated in the provided source. Dan-klasson ( talk) 21:02, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Kober:@ Toddy1: regarding this edit.
I do not view the dispute as resolved. The linked section by Toddy1 in the edit summary does not deal with the text in question, rather something else (and he and I were more or less the only two people participating, hence "nobody agreed" with both sides). The text in dispute this time was discussed [33] and not resolved. Toddy1 please respond to the arguments I advanced then.
Personally I feel that this discussion is not likely to go anywhere (since views are entrenched) so it's better to settle this by RfC or by informal mediation. If either of you are happy to accelerate immediately to those venues of dispute resolution, we can go there at once. Banedon ( talk) 05:33, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Since this 'discussion' is barely happening I'm going to open an RfC in the upcoming days. If any objections - say so now. Banedon ( talk) 01:17, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
The sentence in dispute is this one: "According to political scientist Svante Cornell, the Kremlin spent millions in an international information campaign to blame Georgia for the war; however, there is evidence, including some in Russian media, that Russia actually started the war." Is the inclusion of the full sentence in the Media and cyber war section justified? Banedon ( talk) 00:49, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
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This still should have a neutrality tag on in it, the Guardian and Radio Free Europe references say very little of Ossetians starting the war on 1 August by attacking Georgians, referring instead to fighting breaking out; and the Georgian attack on the village on 7 August is universally described as artillery shelling but the wikipedia entry euphemistically calls it 'taking control within hours'.
The line: "By 1 August 2008, Ossetian separatists began shelling Georgian villages, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the region" is a direct quote from Saakashvili's version of events, disputed by the RFE journalist; suggest replace with: "By 1 August 2008 fighting had erupted between Ossetian separatists and the Georgian military".
As for the spectacularly biased and euphemistic: "To put an end to these attacks and restore order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August"; suggest change to "The outbreak of the war is usually dated to 7th August with the Georgian military artillery assault on Tskhinvali village, within the South Ossetian conflict zone."
146.199.83.165 ( talk) 15:33, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Please stick to the truth! This article is completely one-sided and ignores the independent EU Commission's 700 page paper on the causes, course and aftermath of the war. It is available at https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/HUDOC_38263_08_Annexes_ENG.pdf
Some of the key findings, which contradict much of the position taken in the Wiki article, can be found at pp. 22-24 (items 19-21) of the paper. Specifically, Georgia initiated the conflict by shelling South Ossetia on the night of 7-8 August, there is no evidence of Russian troops in South Ossetia prior to 8 August, and Russia was within its rights to respond at first, but disproportionate when it continued into Georgia proper:
"19.) There is the question of whether the use of force by Georgia in South Ossetia, beginning with the shelling of Tskhinvali during the night of 7/8 August 2008, was justifiable under international law. It was not. Georgia had acknowledged that the prohibition of the use of force was applicable to its conflict in South Ossetia in specific legally binding international documents, such as the Sochi Agreement of 1992 or the 1996 Memorandum on Measures to Provide Security and Strengthen Mutual Trust between the Sides in the Georgian-South Ossetian Conflict. Even if it were assumed that Georgia was repelling an attack, e.g. in response to South Ossetian attacks against Georgian populated 23 villages in the region, according to international law, its armed response would have to be both necessary and proportional. It is not possible to accept that the shelling of Tskhinvali during much of the night with GRAD multiple rocket launchers (MRLS) and heavy artillery would satisfy the requirements of having been necessary and proportionate in order to defend those villages. It follows from the illegal character of the Georgian military assault that South Ossetian defensive action in response did conform to international law in terms of legitimate self-defence. However, any operations of South Ossetian forces outside of the purpose of repelling the Georgian armed attack, in particular acts perpetrated against ethnic Georgians inside and outside South Ossetia, must be considered as having violated International Humanitarian Law and in many cases also Human Rights Law. Furthermore, all South Ossetian military actions directed against Georgian armed forces after the ceasefire agreement of 12 August 2008 had come into effect were illegal as well.
20.) At least as far as the initial phase of the conflict is concerned, an additional legal question is whether the Georgian use of force against Russian peacekeeping forces on Georgian territory, i.e. in South Ossetia, might have been justified. Again the answer is in the negative. There was no ongoing armed attack by Russia before the start of the Georgian operation. Georgian claims of a large-scale presence of Russian armed forces in South Ossetia prior to the Georgian offensive on 7/8 August could not be substantiated by the Mission. It could also not be verified that Russia was on the verge of such a major attack, in spite of certain elements and equipment having been made readily available. There is also no evidence to support any claims that Russian peacekeeping units in South Ossetia were in flagrant breach of their obligations under relevant international agreements such as the Sochi Agreement and thus may have forfeited their international legal status. Consequently, the use of force by Georgia against Russian peacekeeping forces in Tskhinvali in the night of 7/8 August 2008 was contrary to international law.
21.) When considering the legality of Russian military force against Georgia, the answer needs to be differentiated. The Russian reaction to the Georgian attack can be divided into two phases: first, the immediate reaction in order to defend Russian peacekeepers, and second, the invasion of Georgia by Russian armed forces reaching far beyond the administrative boundary of South Ossetia. In the first instance, there seems to be little doubt that if the Russian peacekeepers were attacked, Russia had the right to defend them using military means proportionate to the attack. Hence the Russian use of force for defensive purposes during the first phase of the conflict would be legal. On the second item, it must be ascertained whether the subsequent Russian military campaign deeper into Georgia was necessary and proportionate in terms of defensive action against the initial Georgian attack. Although it should be admitted that it is not easy to decide where the line must be drawn, it seems, however, that much of the Russian military action went far beyond the reasonable limits of defence. This holds true for all kinds of massive and extended military action ranging from the bombing of the upper Kodori Valley to the deployment of armoured units to reach extensive parts of Georgia, to the setting up of military positions in and nearby major Georgian towns as well as to control major highways, and to the deployment of navy units on the Black Sea. All this cannot be regarded as even remotely commensurate with the threat to Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. Furthermore, continued destruction which came after the ceasefire agreement was not justifiable by any means. It follows from this that insofar as such extended Russian military action reaching out into Georgia was conducted in violation of international law, Georgian military forces were acting in legitimate self-defence under Article 51 of the UN Charter. In a matter of a very few days, the pattern of legitimate and illegitimate military action had thus turned around between the two main actors Georgia and Russia." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.167.166.249 ( talk) 01:56, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Why the Georgian War crimes against South Ossetian and Abkhazian Civilians are not mentioned?-- Janos Hajnal ( talk) 15:27, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
The German Journalist Armin Wertz takes the line that the Rose Revolution in Georgia was an American Regime Change based on a Coverted Operation like the Operation Ajax so that would mean that all actions of Russia were reactions to the aggressive foreign policy of the US and not an Aggression against Georgia.-- 37.24.7.146 ( talk) 18:15, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Armin Wertz is not a Conspiracy Theoretic nor pro-Russian. And Wikipedia is also not a Forum to promote Propaganda of the White House.-- 37.24.7.146 ( talk) 11:58, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Complete horse shit pack of lies hit piece by total Wikipedia editor/censor/gatekeeper stooges. Disgraceful that the controlled Wikipedia touts the NWO and NeoCon line to the hilt. Shame.
The article blatantly contradicts the findings of the independent commission [41]. Leaving article as it is, is an intentional malicious disinformation. Its very name clearly POVish and shouldn't be here. Hellerick ( talk) 11:10, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Multiple INDEPENDENT sources have already reached the clear and undisputed conclusion that Georgia started the war in 2008. Yet this pure crap tries to state the opposite? Look at the damned FACTS, Russia is supposed to have started a war with a numerical disadvantage of 1 against 12? "Russian troops had illicitly crossed the Russo-Georgian state border and advanced into the South Ossetian conflict zone by 7 August"? Really, anyone who actually checked their sources knows this is bullshit. The only Russian troops in the conflict zone at the time were the peacekeepers and their replacements. Russia had also just finished its exercise in the area, and the vast majority of its troops even close to the area was moving AWAY from it, most of them were on trains, heading for their homebases. It took Russia THREE DAYS to get reinforcements to their peacekeeper troops, and they got them there by flying in airborne troops from OUTSIDE the region. And said peacekeeper troops were only still alive because they repelled the Georgian assault. This was information that I could get ahold of less than 5 days after the conflict started, and yet this shit is still perpetuated? Russian troops in the area was either in the South Ossetian capital in their barracks, or enroute there, 100% in accordance to the rules set for them to be present as peacekeepers. Georgian troops spent a frickin WEEK to mass artillery, tanks, infantry and vehicles in preparation for the attack, not to mention WEEKS of logistical preparations, hell they even set up a propaganda office in Belgium TWO WEEKS BEFORE THE ATTACK. This propagandapiece is falsifying history. Fix it. DW75 ( talk) 11:47, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Kitsmarishvili was unable to provide a name and stated for the record that he had a conversation with Ambassador Tefft in which Ambassador Tefft said unequivocally that military action was unacceptable and that the USG had not given anyone a "green light" for military action.
Kitsmarishvili clarified to the press that the "green light" to Georgian authorities from the USG had come directly from President Bush. (Note: Post has used Department press guidance to publicly deny this allegation. End Note).
The cables show that for several years, as Georgia entered an escalating contest with the Kremlin for the future of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, two breakaway enclaves out of Georgian control that received Russian support, Washington relied heavily on the Saakashvili government’s accounts of its own behavior. In neighboring countries, American diplomats often maintained their professional distance, and privately detailed their misgivings of their host governments. In Georgia, diplomats appeared to set aside skepticism and embrace Georgian versions of important and disputed events. By 2008, as the region slipped toward war, sources outside the Georgian government were played down or not included in important cables. Official Georgian versions of events were passed to Washington largely unchallenged.
Whoever is responsible for this article is a disgrace. Der Speigal is the New York Times of Germany, while VOA and the Swedish military establishment are both Western state funded intelligence assets. It's universally recognized that Georgia, a client state with a large percentage of its GDP consisting of American NGO cash, attacked, with a military armed with American weapons and advisers, South Ossetia. It took the Russians days to pass through the mountains to counter attack, as their token force in South Ossetia was overwhelmed in a day. This war was highly covered in the modern internet era. There is no contention of the facts by the world public and the world's major newspapers near universally acknowledge Georgia's attack on South Ossetia. Whoever said the Russian government, a bankrupt country with a smaller economy than Italy, uses German journalists as assets needs to go into comedy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.120.53.54 ( talk) 06:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
What was the rationale for removing this? Probably it's somewhere here, just couldn't find it. Alaexis ¿question? 07:02, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Der Spiegel is generally regarded as a reliable source. I'll note that the lede makes a rather bold claim based on
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty ("Artillery attacks by pro-Russian separatists broke a 1992 ceasefire agreement"), which unlike Der Spiegel, is actually a government-run propaganda outlet. Attacks on editors because of their supposed country of origin are totally out-of-bounds. Please
assume good faith and address the issues. -
Thucydides411 (
talk) 22:22, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
Russia is certainly known for using German journalists to influence public opinion. [47] Although there is no doubt about the existence of cables, the whole paragraph in question must be removed because it is influenced by a biased source containing untruthful statements. The paragraph places an WP:UNDUE emphasis on warmongering nature of Georgia. It is in stark contrast to the rest of the article, which shows warmongering nature of Russia-South Ossetia alliance and demonstrates that Georgia was acting defensively. Therefore, the paragraph in question violates WP:FRINGE policy. 89.246.111.98 ( talk) 14:15, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
"Although the Ossetians were initially discontented with the economic stance of Tbilisi authorities, the tension shortly transformed into ethnic conflict."
There is a contradiction. Why is being discontented contrasted with conflict? The latter directly comes from the former.--
Adûnâi (
talk) 05:11, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
The introduction section of the article seems really biased.
By 1 August 2008, South Ossetian separatists had begun shelling Georgian villages, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the area.[31][32][33][34][35] Artillery attacks by pro-Russian separatists broke a 1992 ceasefire agreement.[36][37] To put an end to these attacks and restore order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August.[38] Georgians took control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, in hours.
There is an official EU report about the events that led to the start of the war. This report was also requested by Georgian authorities themselves, according to [33], but then the opposite and wrong conclusions are presented to the reader. This is an official, independent report, redacted by the EU with the help of 30 legal and military experts, and it clearly states that "The shelling of Tskhinvali (the South Ossetian capital) by the Georgian armed forces during the night of 7 to 8 August 2008 marked the beginning of the large-scale armed conflict in Georgia, [...] There is the question of whether [this] use of force... was justifiable under international law. It was not.". The report is only cited in the EU response section at the bottom of the page, while the conclusions presented in the introduction are "biased" to say the least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.47.73.100 ( talk) 16:31, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
Nice to see that after several months nobody has taken the time to reply (even at least just to dismiss?). 2.38.8.249 ( talk) 16:29, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
roudik
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 |
The lead section ends with the following sentence: "The Russian military has occupied Abkhazia and South Ossetia in violation of the ceasefire since August 2008.[32]" However, the citation leads to an article entitled "Georgia accuses Russia of violating international law over South Ossetia". Is Wikipedia blindly accepting one party's accusations as proof, without giving fair space for the other side's point of view? The sentence does not accurately report the information in the citation and is a blatant violation of Wikipedia's neutrality policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.1.158.251 ( talk) 02:21, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
The lede states that "Ossetian separatists began shelling Georgian villages on 1 August, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the region. The Georgian Army was sent to the conflict zone on 7 August to defend civilians and restore order. Most of Tskhinvali, capital of the self-proclaimed Republic of South Ossetia, was recaptured in hours. Georgia later said it was also responding to Russia moving non-peacekeeping units into the country."
This is in clear contradiction with the findings of the Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia. [1] Here is an excerpt (p 19, 14.)
"Open hostilities began with a large-scale Georgian military operation against the town of Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas, launched in the night of 7 to 8 August 2008. Operations started with a massive Georgian artillery attack. At the very outset of the operation the Commander of the Georgian contingent to the Joint Peacekeeping Forces (JPKF), Brigadier General Mamuka Kurashvili, stated that the operation was aimed at restoring the constitutional order in the territory of South Ossetia."
See also [2]. The report dates from 2009 so that, imho, a complete overhaul of the article is long overdue.
This is one of the worst articles I've seen on Wikipedia. Its biased, its selective in its presentation of sources, and there is literally no attempt at any sort of a balanced presentation. The introduction is ten times as long as it should be. A background section which starts dealing the mongol invasion and events in the 10th Century to deal with a short war in 2008 is absurd. The section "Geopolitical impact" is currently being used for what amount to political speeches. A "..." is used to completely distort a quote. The section "Humanitarian impact and war crimes" depends far too much on one source and is far too long. Especially in the cases where there are articles covering a particular subject, there is no need to go over the same subject at such incredible length in the main article. The Military Analysis sections are incredibly confused, biased and make no sense when read. The Georgian analysis starts out praising the Georgian military for shooting down aircraft. The Russian section starts out with "performed poorly", then moves on to accuse a minister of "negligence", then goes on to describe the "poor performance of the Russian Air Force". The "see also" section is surreal. The first two entries on the list are the German occupation of Czechoslovakia and the Shelling of Mainila. Most of the article should be shortened and rewritten. Since the narratives with regard to the start of the war are in absolute conflict with each other, its probably going to be necessary to present both of them. 75.17.127.27 ( talk) 01:26, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
This is indeed one of the worst articles on Wikipedia. Some parts even read like an editorial with dubious claims which cannot be verified. For example, the article claims that there is abundant evidence, including some in Russian media, that Russia actually started the war. The article does not specifiy where this "abundant evidence" can be found, and when checking the source for the claim, it turned out to be an opinion piece.
Is it that difficult to understand that opinion pieces and editorials can not be used as sources for claims that seek to present facts?
In the lead of the article one can read that the South Ossetians destroyed most ethnic Georgian villages in South Ossetia and were responsible for an ethnic cleansing of Georgians. This terrible allegation doesn't even cite a source!
Seriously, the user(s) writing this stuff shouldn't be editing on Wikipedia. — 37 (talk) 00:43, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
There was a lot of POV activity regarding this article since the very start. The neutrality was allways highly questionable and statements or claims mostly favoured the Russian standpoint at the beginning - neglecting and rejecting anything that might support or backup the Gerogian POV alltogheter. The ongoing cyber war is still not concluded. That way it is difficult to establish some decent neutral and solely fact based sections in response to claims and statements. If you have information with actual, topical, unbiased and preferably timely and valid sources that can varify events as they took place you are welcome to insert them. It's not like there is any restriction policy regarding that on wikipedia. But when you talk about "balance" and sources being "selective" it factualy goes both ways as everyone can see in the history. New studies are more important from a researchers perspective than just inserting some fact finding missions that were concluded in a matter of weeks after the conflict. Just complaining about replacing bias with what you personaly think is more bias is no sufficient complaint. If you are serious about establishing a neutral article, you should A. find valid sources that verify information, disregarding any possible bias from either side and B. when there are two opposite claims, then not just one, but both should be regarded, when they are further backed by valid sources. A source that concludes something backed by further reference and evidence - which happens to not saturate ones personal belief or POV - is not a biased source. It's a valid source. Just because you don't like it, doesn't give you the right to delete or replace it. If you can add something that backs up a different position than insert it as a contrast to the first one. That is the only way I see how this dispute can be settled. TheMightyGeneral ( talk) 09:33, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
As I have witnessed the unfold of the war in a live feed by BBC journalist in South Ossetia at the time when the rockets rained down the city before the Russian Army responded next day.
Current TEXT: Russia falsely accused Georgia of "aggression against South Ossetia",[30] and officially launched a large-scale land, air and sea invasion of Georgia on 8 August under the guise of "peace enforcement" operation.
My version: Russia accused Georgia of "aggression against South Ossetia",[30] and officially launched a large-scale land, air and sea invasion of Georgia on 8 August under the guise of "peace enforcement" operation.
The use of the word "falsely" already made judgement for readers who are unaware of the before and afters of the war. I cannot say for sure ALL events but at least I have seen the live footage from a BBC journalist who happened to be in the capital of South Ossetia at the time when the Georgian rockets rained down the city before Russian troops were stomping in next day. Therefore, using the word of "falsely" is not only controversial but also taking the situation out of context unless the author can prove the time, date and place of occurrence. Leave that word out and let the reader make their judgement. For example, after I read to that phrase "falsely accused", I have no more interest to read the rest of the article as I felt it will be biased and the so called "facts or incidents" in the subsequent paragraphs may be falsified World Citizen in New York ( talk) 14:37, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Indeed, there are massive problems here. The latest edit that included the "falsely" ( [2], subsequently edit-warred back in [3] [4] [5]) is just the icing on the cake. Even without that overtly POV addition, the wording of the intro is seriously skewed. Just compare the wording regarding the activities of the two main parties in the lead: the Georgian army "was sent" (passive voice, de-emphasizing agentivity and responsibility) "to defend civilians and restore order" (claiming legitimate goal as an unquestionable fact); Tskhinvali "was captured" (again passive voice). In contrast, Russia "launched an invasion" (active voice, emphasizing aggressive intent) "under the guise of 'peace enforcement' operation" (presenting motivation as false, using scare quotes); Russian forces "battled" Georgian ones (again, emphasizing aggressive agentivity and responsibility of Russian side). All these are covert POV messages through the choice of language alone; not even looking into the choice and weighting of facts and sources. I'm quite disappointed this was passed as GA when all this POV verbiage was already there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:42, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
While the current article is clearly biased in some areas, the arguments presented here are unconstructive or just further POV / mere assumptions and also trying to disqualify certain sources or views with personal complaints about non-relevant subjects as are an author's background etc. If appied, such arguments would apply both ways - see past edits, not solely on the content one dislikes or does not accept - not that it's a valid point in the first place. Such claims regarding single individuals are yet more POV, which negate a constructive discussion alltogheter. So without repeating myself, my statement from above section "POV problems throughout article" also applies here accordingly to the guidelines. Views of both sides are to be regarded especialy when backed up with valid sources and qualified information and research. Further one fact doesn't negate the other. For example: just because Russia responded to the attacks (Russian POV) / counterattacks (Georgian POV) on it's peacekeepers stationed in Tskhinvali, doesn't negate the fact that skirmishes took place days, weeks and months before the outbreak of large scale hostilities between the Georgian Armed Forces and the South Ossetian military. See articles on the timeline of events such as this: /info/en/?search=Timeline_of_the_Russo-Georgian_War. All - especialy certain incidents that took place days before - which contributed to the steady aggravation of tension that ultimately lead to a Georgian military incursion into South Ossetia and it's capital city and open hostilities with the Russian Federation. Give facts and views, but when doing so both sides are to be regarded not just heavily insisted on one position or one particular side of the conflict. TheMightyGeneral ( talk) 10:13, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
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Hey everyone. While I see some problems with this version of the article, what are the reason of deletion of the following parts:
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One issue I raised at the good article eligibility discussion was how the split of Georgia from Soviet Union was described in a different (positively framed) words from a split of South Ossetia from Georgia. I'm copying what I wrote and Kober's response below for convenience.
“ | Intro, paragraph 2. Different words are chosen to describe Georgia's separation from USSR and contemporary South Ossetia's separation from Georgia: "declared independence" vs "left under internationally unrecognised separatist de facto control". | ” |
“ | 1. Georgia's separation from the USSR and SO's secession from Georgia cannot be compared to each other. Despite the fact that Georgia was forcibly sovietized, its separation from the Soviet Union was the right envisaged by the Soviet constitution. South Ossetia was a Soviet-era creation with no constitutionally guaranteed right to secede. Furthermore, Georgia declared independence on the basis of a nationwide referendum which was internationally observed and monitored, while SO's wannabe referendum in 1992 asked question on independence retrospectively, with the exclusion of its Georgian population; the fighting was ongoing and there were no observers and monitors. | ” |
Speaking of the constitution, the law on the procedure of exit of a union republic from the Soviet Union (passed in 1990) required carrying out a referendum in all the autonomous entities in the union republic wishing to secede [6]. So actually the potential separation of autonomous entities from the union republic was envisaged. Alæxis ¿question? 18:08, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
The Title — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.221.12.195 ( talk) 09:21, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
This was primarily a war between Georgia and South Ossetian and Abkhazian Separatists who were supported by Russia. The Kosovo war was primarily a war between Serbia and Montenegro and the UCK that was supported by the US-dominated NATO and not a war between the NATO and Serbia and Montenegro. In the german-speaking Wikipedia the name of the article is Georgian war for example.--- The SBC Guy ( talk) 14:33, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
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Impartiality of source is disputed 73.41.239.230 ( talk) 05:26, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved per WP:SNOW. Combining forms that cannot stand on their own, such as 'Russo', take a hyphen, whereas regular adjectives take an en dash. See MOS:DASH. ( non-admin closure) RGloucester — ☎ 06:32, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
Russo-Georgian War → Russo–Georgian War – As seen with Soviet–Afghan War, Abkhaz–Georgian conflict, etc., en dash is the correct form. RadiculousJ ( talk) 03:06, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
This seems premature to me. The linked source begins with "Georgia accuses Russia ...", which makes it seem like an accusation, not an assertion of fact. The source goes on to say Georgia is accusing Russia of violating international law, which is not the same as the ceasefire agreement. In fact looking at the ceasefire agreement in this article I am not sure what clause Russia is violating here. The source might be cited for a different claim but it doesn't really back up this one. Banedon ( talk) 04:05, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
You are not answering the objections raised, but you are reverting [9]. I'm bringing this to DR/N, please comment [10]. Banedon ( talk) 13:31, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
The following sentence keeps having the underlined portion deleted:
The source for this sentence is:
The source says:
The source for this is an opinion-piece; i.e. it is a statement of the author's opinion. WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV says that "Biased statements of opinion can be presented only with attribution." This has been done by prefacing the statement in the article with "According to political scientist Svante Cornell".-- Toddy1 (talk) 22:39, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
so biased and badly written you wouldnt believe it was protected and allowed to exist in its current state. So pov and anti-russian its laughable — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:201:E700:6D5E:80C2:F710:4224 ( talk) 10:08, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
The EU itself did not publish the 2009 report. The conclusion blaming Georgia is just a personal opinion of Heidi Tagliavini. The 2009 report is a self-published work of the commission hired by the EU. The EU has never endorsed the final report. The 2009 report is outdated and unreliable. Science books of the 19th century were not retracted by their authors after new scientific discoveries were made in the 20th century, however these books do not remain valid sources of information by the mere fact they were not ever recalled. I did not post my thoughts, I cited the reliable and relevant EU source explaining Putin's modus operandi: "The 2008 war began when Russia-controlled fighters in the breakaway South Ossetia region in Georgia escalated skirmishes against Georgian troops." Georgia could not start the large-scale hostilities because they had already been initiated by Putin's stooges. What is the purpose of your edit? It does not add anything of value to the article. I reject your edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.12.160.4 ( talk) 10:43, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
No. This article is correct in general, except that the "war" and the "victory" in this "war" are too mighty words for this conflict. Just ignore russian troll-clowns in talk page and don't let them edit the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.95.245.132 ( talk) 20:51, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
I checked the archives and found no consensus that the BBC and Der Spiegel articles were not allowed. Since the publishers of these respected journals think the story is relevant, I see no reason why we shouldn't. – [12] – per WP:RS and WP:NPOV.
European Union – On 30 September 2009, the EU–sponsored Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia stated that, while preceded by months of mutual provocations, "open hostilities began with a large-scale Georgian military operation against the town of Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas, launched in the night of 7 to 8 August 2008. – "Georgia 'started unjustified war'". BBC News. 30 September 2009. – "EU Report: Independent Experts Blame Georgia for South Ossetia War". Der Spiegel. 21 September 2009.
-- Tobby72 ( talk) 08:36, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
It may be true that many in the EU thought in 2009 that the war was the result of Saakashvili's foolish provocation. However, it is now widely accepted that Putin's stooges started the war and forced Saakashvili's hand. https://euobserver.com/foreign/132425 Anybody, who says otherwise, must be either a victim of Russia's disinformation campaign or a shill. Pro-Russian people are the only cause of disputes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.12.160.5 ( talk) 20:06, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
European Union – On 30 September 2009, the EU–sponsored Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia stated that, while preceded by months of mutual provocations, "open hostilities began with a large-scale Georgian military operation against the town of Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas, launched in the night of 7 to 8 August 2008." – "Georgia 'started unjustified war'". BBC News. 30 September 2009. – "EU Report: Independent Experts Blame Georgia for South Ossetia War". Der Spiegel. 21 September 2009. – However, the ECFR article stated in August 2015: "The very limited Russian information operation were effective in influencing Western (particularly German) public opinion, which soon tilted towards the Russian version of the events. Lines of Russian disinformation even penetrated the EU's own final report, which overplayed the significance of US support and military assistance to Georgia." – " In the shadow of Ukraine: seven years on from Russian-Georgian war". European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR). August 6, 2015.
The EU itself did not publish the 2009 report. The conclusion blaming Georgia is just a personal opinion of Heidi Tagliavini. The 2009 report is a self-published work of the commission hired by the EU. The EU has never endorsed the final report. The 2009 report is outdated and unreliable. Science books of the 19th century were not retracted by their authors after new scientific discoveries were made in the 20th century, however these books do not remain valid sources of information by the mere fact they were not ever recalled. I did not post my thoughts, I cited the reliable and relevant EU source explaining Putin's modus operandi: "The 2008 war began when Russia-controlled fighters in the breakaway South Ossetia region in Georgia escalated skirmishes against Georgian troops." Georgia could not start the large-scale hostilities because they had already been initiated by Putin's stooges. What is the purpose of your edit? It does not add anything of value to the article. I reject your edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.12.160.4 ( talk)
Tobby72, I just looked over this page and I am shocked at how selective you are in which parts of the EU report you cite, and which you don't. You may want to read Wikipedia:Cherrypicking. You seem to have an agenda of making Georgia look bad, while covering Russian tracks, not just on this article, but across wikipedia. The EU report was much more nuanced than you make it seem and much more critical of Russia than you want it to appear. I went through the article history and discovered a rather good summary of the EU report that was apparently deleted by someone. I've attached it below. This is a good description of what the report actually said, as opposed to what you're saying
An international fact-finding commission headed by Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini was established by the EU to determine the causes of the war. The commission was given a budget of 1.6 million euros and relied on the expertise of military officials, political scientists, historians and international law experts, who issued their final report in September 2009. [3]
The report found that Russian and South Ossetian allegations of "genocide" committed by the Georgian side were "neither founded in law nor substantiated by factual evidence." [4] On the contrary, the commission found indicators of ethnic cleansing committed against Georgians themselves, saying that "several elements suggest the conclusion that ethnic cleansing was indeed practised against ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia both during and after the August 2008 conflict." [5] According to the commission, in many cases Russian forces did not act to prevent or stop South Ossetian forces from committing acts of deliberate violence against civilians during the conflict and after the cease-fire. [6]
The commission concluded that South Ossetian separatists could not validly invite Russia to support them militarily. [7] It also held that "Russian military activities against the Georgian military forces were not justified as collective self-defence under international law" [8] and could not be justified as a humanitarian intervention either. [9] According to the report, Russian citizenship, conferred to the vast part of Abkhaz and Ossetian populations, could not be considered legally binding under international law [10], and that the constitutional obligation to protect Russian nationals could not serve as a justification for intervention, since Russian domestic laws could not be invoked as justification for breaching international laws. [11] The commission concluded that Russian intervention in Georgia was not justified as a rescue operation for Russian citizens in Georgia. [12]
The commission held that the South Ossetian attacks on Georgian villages were equivalent to an "attack by the armed forces of a State on the territory of another State" resembling the situations described in Art. 3(a) of UN Resolution 3314. [13] As the South Ossetian attacks were "primarily" directed against Georgian peacekeepers and against Georgian police, this was an attack by the South Ossetian armed forces on the land forces of Georgia. [14] The report notes that Georgia's response to these deadly attacks was justified, albeit at times disproportionate. [15]
The report acknowledged that when Georgia started a military operation in South Ossetia, "a violent conflict had already been going on" [16] and that the operation "was only the culminating point of a long period of increasing tensions, provocations and incidents". [17] The commission saw "... no way to assign overall responsibility for the conflict to one side alone", [18] but it confirmed that Russian military "volunteers or mercenaries" illegally entered Georgia before the start of open hostilities and that there was already some presence of non-peacekeeping Russian troops in South Ossetia before the official intervention was announced by Russia. [19] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1003:B11A:C559:7989:8A95:9887:393C ( talk)
While I agree to the obvious namely that certain people are still trying to make the report and its conclusions seem one sided than they really are - in fact they are not at all, actualy the report concludes with blaming Georgia for the most evident = the disproportionate military intervention in response to seperatist provocations and assaults on civilian as well as law enforcement targets - facts are facts and you'd serve this article better if you simply expanded the section EU report to avoid false conclusions by the reader instead of just continuesly deleting those single excerpts. TheMightyGeneral ( talk) 09:54, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Tobby72 Really not, he has a very valid point here and needless to bring up brief news reports biased or not are not the best sources per se on a complex issue like this. Especialy in regards to whole documents of a fact finding mission etc. Should be expanded. Accurately. TheMightyGeneral ( talk) 10:00, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Russo-Georgian War has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I am unable to find anything in the provided source to back up the following statement:
By August 1, 2008, Ossetian separatists began shelling Georgian villages, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the region. To put an end to these deadly attacks and restore order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August. [20]
I suggest it should be changed to:
By August 1, 2008, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August. [20]
Which is in fact stated in the provided source. Dan-klasson ( talk) 21:02, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Kober:@ Toddy1: regarding this edit.
I do not view the dispute as resolved. The linked section by Toddy1 in the edit summary does not deal with the text in question, rather something else (and he and I were more or less the only two people participating, hence "nobody agreed" with both sides). The text in dispute this time was discussed [33] and not resolved. Toddy1 please respond to the arguments I advanced then.
Personally I feel that this discussion is not likely to go anywhere (since views are entrenched) so it's better to settle this by RfC or by informal mediation. If either of you are happy to accelerate immediately to those venues of dispute resolution, we can go there at once. Banedon ( talk) 05:33, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Since this 'discussion' is barely happening I'm going to open an RfC in the upcoming days. If any objections - say so now. Banedon ( talk) 01:17, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
The sentence in dispute is this one: "According to political scientist Svante Cornell, the Kremlin spent millions in an international information campaign to blame Georgia for the war; however, there is evidence, including some in Russian media, that Russia actually started the war." Is the inclusion of the full sentence in the Media and cyber war section justified? Banedon ( talk) 00:49, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
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This still should have a neutrality tag on in it, the Guardian and Radio Free Europe references say very little of Ossetians starting the war on 1 August by attacking Georgians, referring instead to fighting breaking out; and the Georgian attack on the village on 7 August is universally described as artillery shelling but the wikipedia entry euphemistically calls it 'taking control within hours'.
The line: "By 1 August 2008, Ossetian separatists began shelling Georgian villages, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the region" is a direct quote from Saakashvili's version of events, disputed by the RFE journalist; suggest replace with: "By 1 August 2008 fighting had erupted between Ossetian separatists and the Georgian military".
As for the spectacularly biased and euphemistic: "To put an end to these attacks and restore order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August"; suggest change to "The outbreak of the war is usually dated to 7th August with the Georgian military artillery assault on Tskhinvali village, within the South Ossetian conflict zone."
146.199.83.165 ( talk) 15:33, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Please stick to the truth! This article is completely one-sided and ignores the independent EU Commission's 700 page paper on the causes, course and aftermath of the war. It is available at https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/HUDOC_38263_08_Annexes_ENG.pdf
Some of the key findings, which contradict much of the position taken in the Wiki article, can be found at pp. 22-24 (items 19-21) of the paper. Specifically, Georgia initiated the conflict by shelling South Ossetia on the night of 7-8 August, there is no evidence of Russian troops in South Ossetia prior to 8 August, and Russia was within its rights to respond at first, but disproportionate when it continued into Georgia proper:
"19.) There is the question of whether the use of force by Georgia in South Ossetia, beginning with the shelling of Tskhinvali during the night of 7/8 August 2008, was justifiable under international law. It was not. Georgia had acknowledged that the prohibition of the use of force was applicable to its conflict in South Ossetia in specific legally binding international documents, such as the Sochi Agreement of 1992 or the 1996 Memorandum on Measures to Provide Security and Strengthen Mutual Trust between the Sides in the Georgian-South Ossetian Conflict. Even if it were assumed that Georgia was repelling an attack, e.g. in response to South Ossetian attacks against Georgian populated 23 villages in the region, according to international law, its armed response would have to be both necessary and proportional. It is not possible to accept that the shelling of Tskhinvali during much of the night with GRAD multiple rocket launchers (MRLS) and heavy artillery would satisfy the requirements of having been necessary and proportionate in order to defend those villages. It follows from the illegal character of the Georgian military assault that South Ossetian defensive action in response did conform to international law in terms of legitimate self-defence. However, any operations of South Ossetian forces outside of the purpose of repelling the Georgian armed attack, in particular acts perpetrated against ethnic Georgians inside and outside South Ossetia, must be considered as having violated International Humanitarian Law and in many cases also Human Rights Law. Furthermore, all South Ossetian military actions directed against Georgian armed forces after the ceasefire agreement of 12 August 2008 had come into effect were illegal as well.
20.) At least as far as the initial phase of the conflict is concerned, an additional legal question is whether the Georgian use of force against Russian peacekeeping forces on Georgian territory, i.e. in South Ossetia, might have been justified. Again the answer is in the negative. There was no ongoing armed attack by Russia before the start of the Georgian operation. Georgian claims of a large-scale presence of Russian armed forces in South Ossetia prior to the Georgian offensive on 7/8 August could not be substantiated by the Mission. It could also not be verified that Russia was on the verge of such a major attack, in spite of certain elements and equipment having been made readily available. There is also no evidence to support any claims that Russian peacekeeping units in South Ossetia were in flagrant breach of their obligations under relevant international agreements such as the Sochi Agreement and thus may have forfeited their international legal status. Consequently, the use of force by Georgia against Russian peacekeeping forces in Tskhinvali in the night of 7/8 August 2008 was contrary to international law.
21.) When considering the legality of Russian military force against Georgia, the answer needs to be differentiated. The Russian reaction to the Georgian attack can be divided into two phases: first, the immediate reaction in order to defend Russian peacekeepers, and second, the invasion of Georgia by Russian armed forces reaching far beyond the administrative boundary of South Ossetia. In the first instance, there seems to be little doubt that if the Russian peacekeepers were attacked, Russia had the right to defend them using military means proportionate to the attack. Hence the Russian use of force for defensive purposes during the first phase of the conflict would be legal. On the second item, it must be ascertained whether the subsequent Russian military campaign deeper into Georgia was necessary and proportionate in terms of defensive action against the initial Georgian attack. Although it should be admitted that it is not easy to decide where the line must be drawn, it seems, however, that much of the Russian military action went far beyond the reasonable limits of defence. This holds true for all kinds of massive and extended military action ranging from the bombing of the upper Kodori Valley to the deployment of armoured units to reach extensive parts of Georgia, to the setting up of military positions in and nearby major Georgian towns as well as to control major highways, and to the deployment of navy units on the Black Sea. All this cannot be regarded as even remotely commensurate with the threat to Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. Furthermore, continued destruction which came after the ceasefire agreement was not justifiable by any means. It follows from this that insofar as such extended Russian military action reaching out into Georgia was conducted in violation of international law, Georgian military forces were acting in legitimate self-defence under Article 51 of the UN Charter. In a matter of a very few days, the pattern of legitimate and illegitimate military action had thus turned around between the two main actors Georgia and Russia." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.167.166.249 ( talk) 01:56, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Why the Georgian War crimes against South Ossetian and Abkhazian Civilians are not mentioned?-- Janos Hajnal ( talk) 15:27, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
The German Journalist Armin Wertz takes the line that the Rose Revolution in Georgia was an American Regime Change based on a Coverted Operation like the Operation Ajax so that would mean that all actions of Russia were reactions to the aggressive foreign policy of the US and not an Aggression against Georgia.-- 37.24.7.146 ( talk) 18:15, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Armin Wertz is not a Conspiracy Theoretic nor pro-Russian. And Wikipedia is also not a Forum to promote Propaganda of the White House.-- 37.24.7.146 ( talk) 11:58, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Complete horse shit pack of lies hit piece by total Wikipedia editor/censor/gatekeeper stooges. Disgraceful that the controlled Wikipedia touts the NWO and NeoCon line to the hilt. Shame.
The article blatantly contradicts the findings of the independent commission [41]. Leaving article as it is, is an intentional malicious disinformation. Its very name clearly POVish and shouldn't be here. Hellerick ( talk) 11:10, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Multiple INDEPENDENT sources have already reached the clear and undisputed conclusion that Georgia started the war in 2008. Yet this pure crap tries to state the opposite? Look at the damned FACTS, Russia is supposed to have started a war with a numerical disadvantage of 1 against 12? "Russian troops had illicitly crossed the Russo-Georgian state border and advanced into the South Ossetian conflict zone by 7 August"? Really, anyone who actually checked their sources knows this is bullshit. The only Russian troops in the conflict zone at the time were the peacekeepers and their replacements. Russia had also just finished its exercise in the area, and the vast majority of its troops even close to the area was moving AWAY from it, most of them were on trains, heading for their homebases. It took Russia THREE DAYS to get reinforcements to their peacekeeper troops, and they got them there by flying in airborne troops from OUTSIDE the region. And said peacekeeper troops were only still alive because they repelled the Georgian assault. This was information that I could get ahold of less than 5 days after the conflict started, and yet this shit is still perpetuated? Russian troops in the area was either in the South Ossetian capital in their barracks, or enroute there, 100% in accordance to the rules set for them to be present as peacekeepers. Georgian troops spent a frickin WEEK to mass artillery, tanks, infantry and vehicles in preparation for the attack, not to mention WEEKS of logistical preparations, hell they even set up a propaganda office in Belgium TWO WEEKS BEFORE THE ATTACK. This propagandapiece is falsifying history. Fix it. DW75 ( talk) 11:47, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Kitsmarishvili was unable to provide a name and stated for the record that he had a conversation with Ambassador Tefft in which Ambassador Tefft said unequivocally that military action was unacceptable and that the USG had not given anyone a "green light" for military action.
Kitsmarishvili clarified to the press that the "green light" to Georgian authorities from the USG had come directly from President Bush. (Note: Post has used Department press guidance to publicly deny this allegation. End Note).
The cables show that for several years, as Georgia entered an escalating contest with the Kremlin for the future of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, two breakaway enclaves out of Georgian control that received Russian support, Washington relied heavily on the Saakashvili government’s accounts of its own behavior. In neighboring countries, American diplomats often maintained their professional distance, and privately detailed their misgivings of their host governments. In Georgia, diplomats appeared to set aside skepticism and embrace Georgian versions of important and disputed events. By 2008, as the region slipped toward war, sources outside the Georgian government were played down or not included in important cables. Official Georgian versions of events were passed to Washington largely unchallenged.
Whoever is responsible for this article is a disgrace. Der Speigal is the New York Times of Germany, while VOA and the Swedish military establishment are both Western state funded intelligence assets. It's universally recognized that Georgia, a client state with a large percentage of its GDP consisting of American NGO cash, attacked, with a military armed with American weapons and advisers, South Ossetia. It took the Russians days to pass through the mountains to counter attack, as their token force in South Ossetia was overwhelmed in a day. This war was highly covered in the modern internet era. There is no contention of the facts by the world public and the world's major newspapers near universally acknowledge Georgia's attack on South Ossetia. Whoever said the Russian government, a bankrupt country with a smaller economy than Italy, uses German journalists as assets needs to go into comedy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.120.53.54 ( talk) 06:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
What was the rationale for removing this? Probably it's somewhere here, just couldn't find it. Alaexis ¿question? 07:02, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Der Spiegel is generally regarded as a reliable source. I'll note that the lede makes a rather bold claim based on
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty ("Artillery attacks by pro-Russian separatists broke a 1992 ceasefire agreement"), which unlike Der Spiegel, is actually a government-run propaganda outlet. Attacks on editors because of their supposed country of origin are totally out-of-bounds. Please
assume good faith and address the issues. -
Thucydides411 (
talk) 22:22, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
Russia is certainly known for using German journalists to influence public opinion. [47] Although there is no doubt about the existence of cables, the whole paragraph in question must be removed because it is influenced by a biased source containing untruthful statements. The paragraph places an WP:UNDUE emphasis on warmongering nature of Georgia. It is in stark contrast to the rest of the article, which shows warmongering nature of Russia-South Ossetia alliance and demonstrates that Georgia was acting defensively. Therefore, the paragraph in question violates WP:FRINGE policy. 89.246.111.98 ( talk) 14:15, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
"Although the Ossetians were initially discontented with the economic stance of Tbilisi authorities, the tension shortly transformed into ethnic conflict."
There is a contradiction. Why is being discontented contrasted with conflict? The latter directly comes from the former.--
Adûnâi (
talk) 05:11, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
The introduction section of the article seems really biased.
By 1 August 2008, South Ossetian separatists had begun shelling Georgian villages, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the area.[31][32][33][34][35] Artillery attacks by pro-Russian separatists broke a 1992 ceasefire agreement.[36][37] To put an end to these attacks and restore order, the Georgian Army was sent to the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August.[38] Georgians took control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, in hours.
There is an official EU report about the events that led to the start of the war. This report was also requested by Georgian authorities themselves, according to [33], but then the opposite and wrong conclusions are presented to the reader. This is an official, independent report, redacted by the EU with the help of 30 legal and military experts, and it clearly states that "The shelling of Tskhinvali (the South Ossetian capital) by the Georgian armed forces during the night of 7 to 8 August 2008 marked the beginning of the large-scale armed conflict in Georgia, [...] There is the question of whether [this] use of force... was justifiable under international law. It was not.". The report is only cited in the EU response section at the bottom of the page, while the conclusions presented in the introduction are "biased" to say the least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.47.73.100 ( talk) 16:31, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
Nice to see that after several months nobody has taken the time to reply (even at least just to dismiss?). 2.38.8.249 ( talk) 16:29, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
roudik
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).