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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4566892.ece As per this times article is it worth mentioning that after the "peace deal" Russia is continuing to attack Georgian positions, bases, and destroy not only military assets but also civilian rescoucse and infrastructure. They are also “capturing” (read kidnapping) military personnel from outside the areas they occupied when the peace deal was signed. Additionally they have stolen US vehicles that were awaiting shipment back the US (they were not being used by the Georgians) All of this is not only in breach of the terms of the “peace deal” but also breaks international law, could someone please include this into the main article, maybe a section on Russia’s breaking of treaties, as well as breaking of international law (possibly war crimes)? 81.149.82.243 ( talk) 16:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Have you wondered that maybe they are trying to weaken the Georgian army so this won't happen again anytime soon? -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 18:24, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
On US vehicles, the Russians took four amphibious-kit Humvees -- see here for instance. I hadn't thought that the Russian detention of Georgian soldiers, with a ceasefire signed, is likelier to be kidnapping than capturing... But still, even though it doesn't appear (yet?) on the list of WP:NOTs, Wikipedia is not the Hague Tribunal. Reuters, Human Rights Watch, the AP, and so on are giving very clear evidence of war crimes and an ugly sort of malfeasance, but we don't know how far up the chain culpability runs -- we should wait until a notable source makes indictments, and then document that action, rather than making the indictment ourselves. If you know of such sources, however, please add them: I certainly will if I encounter any. ExOttoyuhr ( talk) 19:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
"Operating without command" is not a valid reason to kidnap someone, they weren't armed at the time, and weren't attacking the Russians, and were also on the Georgian side of the lines which were established pre the "cease fire". Launching a raid over a cease fire line after a cease fire has been signed to capture anyone (millitary personel or otherwise) is kidnap, not arrest or capture according to the rules of war. The Humvees were vehicles belonging to the US millitary, but it's not as if they were tanks, they didnt have any weapons on them, so that's like saying you can steal any vehicle because "it might be used for military purposes" (additionally they were actually packed in locked shipping containers ready for shipment, and the Georgians hadnt even gone near them as they were in a civilian port), additionally Russia had to ADVANCE AFTER THE "CEASE FIRE" to steal the vehicles, it has also been destroying civillian infrastructure, vehicles, ships, buildings and property, also there are numerous reports (from verifiable international press sources) of Russian armed forces looting from Georgian Civillians, both in Georgia proper, and in the South Ossetian region. As well as the fact that the 20% of buildings that are claimed to have been damaged or destroyed in the action in South Ossetia, it is estimated that 2-4% were damaged by Georgian troops, with the remaining 16-18% destroyed in the subsequent Russian Invasion. 81.149.82.243 ( talk) 08:55, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
According to the article as it currently stands, the war is simply caused by conflicting interests as regards to a tiny province called South Ossetia north of the capital of Georgia. The article doesn't really deal with ex Soviet republic of Georgia's aspiration of Nato membership, Russia's geopolitical interests, particularly as regards to its "backyard" (i.e. former Soveiet republics as a whole, and maybe what used to be Europe to east of the Iron curtain), the message Krimlin wants to send to neighbors who intend to go against Russia's intersts. Etc, etc. So, how about an introductory article section called geopolitical backround dealing with these issues? -- Hapsala ( talk) 19:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
its about keeping georgia out of NATO by toppling their crazy president —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.76.40.251 ( talk) 03:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The war is related to the current Russian regime (Putin et al) to recreate the USSR with them as it's dictators, to do so they are moving down the route of anexxing parts of surrounding nations, and will eventually attempt to install puppet regimes, or mount full scale invasions under some kind of pretext. 81.149.82.243 ( talk) 09:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
As you can see there are a lot of point of view, that are opposite to one each other. The idea of finding the reason of the war /the way it is stated in the head/ is great, but I don't see how we can do it here w/o starting another editors war.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian Federation
ComanL ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia have it's 14 or 15 soldiers captured.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
"Anatoly Nogovitsin, the deputy chief of staff, said at a news conference on August 13, that although no verified data was available, but “I’ve heard Georgia has lost 4,000 men.” " Hearsay? I don't know, he just "heard". I don't know if we can write the 4,000 figure with just that source-- Jaimevelasco ( talk) 21:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
A search on Google News bring up the following results for each potential name:
I should note several of the results on Georgia war/conflict actually refer to it as Russia-Georgia. This probably doesn't even accurately reflect the extent of media coverage as the results for South Ossetia also include results from the days leading up to the major conflict. One also has to take into consideration the organizations using these terms. Those using South Ossetia are primarily regional news organizations while those calling it a Russia-Georgia conflict include CNN, AFP, AP, Reuters, NPR, The Times, The Guardian, MSNBC, Fox News, Business Week, USA Today, Financial Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, International Herald Tribune, Xinhua, and countless others. This clearly is the name which has been adopted. Whether this will be the name history gives it is a much later question, but for now it is clear what this article should be called. It's time to stop all this idiotic bickering over whether there has been a consensus on naming, it's not like we can't include the names in the intro like every other conflict. I suggest the article be renamed Russia-Georgia Conflict with the intro providing some of the other popular names.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 01:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I did not find any article that did not refer to this particular conflict but I suppose some may be. Variations include "Russian invasion of Georgia", "Georgia: Russian invasion", "Russian invasion of a neighboring country", etc. For example: "Russian invasion of Georgia": 446 results ---( PaC ( talk) 04:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC))
As someone mentioned a week ago about this same issue; wikipedia is not a popularity contest. The Hundred Years War was not called so until after the fact ... which doesn't make much of an argument, but I think that the conflict began in the geographical region of South Ossetia, and therefore it defines the conflict, like "100 years" defines that conflict (even if it wasn't 100 years long). It isn't like Russia and Georgia went to all out war against one another, there were no formal declarations, and if they did, Russian troops would be in Tbilisi. I personally think that by leaving the title that is in place now, all concerned parties will know exactly what the article is talking about. Let's face it, in citing all those American based sources, most news anchors can't pronounce "Ossetia" and "Russia vs. Georgia" registers much clearer with American viewers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Menrunningpast ( talk • contribs) 04:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
A search on Google: "Bush is a fool" - 78 800 results. Магистер ( talk) 10:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
If you search "Putin Terrorist" in Google, you get 3.4 million results, so your point is? "Results 1 - 10 of about 3,400,000 for putin terrorist. (0.20 seconds)" MattUK ( talk) 10:20, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
If you put quotetion marks around it for more precision, you get this:
So, the name, in my opinion, should be "South Ossetian Conflict". -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 12:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Comments on the article's name are welcome at Talk:2008 South Ossetia war/Article title. Greenshed ( talk) 14:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
An interesting look at the back story of this conflict [1] from the BBC, who would have thought oil might be a motive? (Hypnosadist) 02:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
There are repots on the Times online website that say that Russia bombed the pipeline, it's not so much to gain control of the oil and natural gas, but to for it's flow to be though Russia, under the control of Moscow, rather than letting countries have independant control of their own rescources. MattUK ( talk) 10:38, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Just a point I would like to mention, and defer to the more experianced editors on here, but is anyone else having problems with posts which are made in one section appearing in the section above or below the one it was meant to be in. I'm not clicking the wrong "edit" link, as I've checked the "Subject/headline:" field before posting, any ideas out there from the more knowledgable Wikipedians? MattUK ( talk) 10:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
A McClatchy report from Tskhinvali confirms 40 killed there, a number very close to that of Human Rights Watch. I suggest adjusting the 44 number to "40-odd" or "low 40s" and say "According to HRW and McClatchy..." or something like that. Bdell555 ( talk) 01:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
And where do you think McClatchy got his number, rounded? :) BTW, that "44 dead" figure doesn't mean "total dead" at all, these are wounded people who died in the hospital of Tskhinvali - methinks it should be made more clear in the article. Corpses from the streets were not transported to the hospital (its morgue is probably too small anyway), they're being collected into the mobile refrigerators (also there's a lot of improvised graves according to reporters). Nor does it include casualties in nearby villages, or people evacuated into North Ossetia and later dying there. I can't provide link now, i had seen that on TV only. Still no official number afaik, investigation is underway. 195.218.210.172 ( talk) 03:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be quite naive to assume that Tkhinvlis destruction was perpetrated by Georgians alone. Georgians took the city with a rapid advance supported by artillery. Russia dislodged the Georgians from the city with artillery, tanks and bombers. Grozny shows the history of Russian tactics to dislodge opposing forces. The destrucion of Tskhinvali was perpetrated by mutual forces. A clear aspect of bias is present here as the only sources we have for Tkhinvalis destrucion, even today, are Russian. NO international media has been allowed that far north. 70.193.63.107 ( talk) 04:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Just a heads up, but linking to the video on youtube is a violation of Fox New's copyright and isn't allowed per WP:YOUTUBE. I'd say the coverage in other sources should be enough to discuss the alleged missteps on youtube's part. If you feel a video of the interview is necessary, you'll have to find it through Fox New's site. A ni Mate 03:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC) cunty
WHY someone keeps deleting this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCwTo9AdT2c ? From the Talk section, wth? I think it has to be discussed as well. Maybe someone can find official link, so it can go into main article. 195.218.210.175 ( talk) 19:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
From Your Local Infobox:
"Russian/Ossetian estimate more than 2,000 South Ossetians killed.[10] Russian/Ossetian claim a confirmed 60-200 Ossetian civilian corpses identified and 500 more unaccounted for.[11]"
Which would make 560-700, but not 2,000. So...? And how can you "confirm 60-200"? Either one single number is confirmed or it's another estimate.--
megA (
talk)
19:50, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
HRW's reports should be taken with care, but IMO thay aren't bad.
Number 60-200 is pretty wide, but I think it's more or less realistic. 1500-2000 was taken from Osethian government. In the begining Prime Minister Putin sad about Tshinvali "Tens are dead and hundreds are wounded" - I think it is pretty realable.--
Oleg Str (
talk)
09:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Really now? The only thing that the section says that asserts actual withdrawal is a claim about Reuters which their article doesn't actually say. (It says some vehicles left Gori, but it doesn't say where to.) The title is therefore inaccurate, and (since only the Russians claim, so far, there is a withdrawal) POV. And even if we knew more, the assertion that this is the beginning of something not yet happened is purest WP:CRYSTAL. Unsupported Russian claims do not belong in the timeline, any more than they did yesterday. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Well there is something to thik about. Yeah right. But for some pplz life seems sweeter, when they think that it's only Russia's Putin you can't believe. Not own Bush, Ushenko, Mihiko or whoever ^-). There were no battle for Gori, cos Georgians military left it. There also left no administration in Gori. There are numerous reports of Western journalists, that soldiers here are jumping on their trucks and leaving to the Tbilisi at hight speed. City admninstration and Police, some civilians folowed them. So ppls were left just like this. While main Russian forces stayed out of a city. Some Russian squads where there to take a Police role. They are not numerous enough to make a military force. And waiting for the georgian police to come. That's what I know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oleg Str ( talk • contribs)
Russia has yet to begin withdrawal, they have in fact advanced from the lines they held pre the "cease fire", this has been verified many times by Georgian officials, foreign officials, neutral observers (HRW, UNHRC), as well as extra-governmental organisations such as NATO (Virtually every reliable news source has these news stories), the only people claiming that they are withdrawing were the Russians, and they backtracked once they were caught out. One of the reasons the Russian government, officials and media (which is state controlled) is not a reliable source is that they have consistantly lied from the begining, only to change their story when they get caught out but reliable sources. MattUK ( talk) 10:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I would like to remove the first paragraph of the Russian Intervention section:
In the opinion of the independent Russian military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer, "Russia's invasion of Georgia had been planned in advance, with the final political decision to complete the preparations and start war in August apparently having been made back in April."[65]
I think Pavel's opinion adds nothing to the goal of neutrally presenting the information. I do not see that his opinion belongs here. Yourcomrade ( talk) 22:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC) User:yourcomrade
Pavel Felgenhauer ~~ Why should be the citation of an essay from a well known Russian defence analyst published in a Russian media that's not controlled anyway by Russian state against the goal of neutrality ?? Elysander ( talk) 23:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
And a little bit ;-) earlier than Felgenhauer >> Monday, August 4th 2008 : Moscow Orchestrates War Scare in South Ossetia - http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373282 - Elysander ( talk) 23:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
This is a difficult point to argue, would you say that an American crack down on illegal immigrants in Calaforina made a Mexican invasion of the Southern USA acceptable? I certainly wouldnt. Georgia was acting within it's own (internationally recognised) territory, the so called Russian "Peacekeepers" (not internationally recognised, only accepted by Georgia a few years ago at gun point (let them stay or we'll attack you) after the Russians basically invaded South Ossetia under a pretext) borders, Russia then preceded to invade not only the region of South Ossetia, but large areas of the rest of Georgia, and then destroyed large amounts of infrastructure and property (there are at the moment unverified reports of Russian millitary personel demolishing buildings and then claiming that they were destroyed by Georgians, these will probably be verified by HWR or some other international observers soon enough). Under all international laws Russias actions are illegal, they invaded a soverign nation, attacked that countries millitary and civillians within it's own boarders, destroyed civillian infrastructure, looted civillian property (there are reports unverified reports of rape and beatings) as well as other illegal actions, some of which may be classed as war crimes. MattUK ( talk) 09:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
While it is deplorable, civilian casualties are not a new thing at all. Reporting on it is absolutely necessary, but are we going to label Russia, U.S.A., China, Britain, France, ad infinitum as personally grotesque for their participation in these attrocities as in blaming the one instead of the other? Japan fought a war of indescribable abuse and misery and the U.S.A. responded with THE most horrific weapon known to man and used it on civilians. Really, the worst thing about war is war itself. Adding up civilian casualties on the one side over the other seems to me remarkably dangerous. Imagine a war without civilian casualties. I suspect that the combatants would find what they were doing - fighting in a remote desert with not a civilian around, rather absurd. Then, when the victor returns to the "conquered territory" only to find that the disappointed citizens of that land have decided to mount an armed insurgence - My God!! We love to kill, don't we. Leather-stockings ( talk) 00:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The current status is "Conflict ongoing, ceasefire currently in effect", would this be better worded as "Conflict ongoing, ceasefire currently observed by the Georgian Millitary", I say this on the basis that the Russian armed forces and the Russian backed and equipped Militias have advanced since the cease fire, captured more Georgian personell and equipment and continued destruction of Georgian millitary and civillian property and infrastructre in contravention of the cease fire document which stated that all actions by the millitaries and militias would cease with immediate effect, and all sides would withdraw to the positions before the conflict began. MattUK ( talk) 10:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
it isn't useful to try and keep this article updated up-to-the-minute. So the Russians prance around a few days before retreating. The ceasefire is still in effect, and in the larger schemes of things, it is hardly important if the Russians withdrew on 18 or on 21 August. We can change the note as soon as the Russians confirmedly violate the ceasefire. -- dab (𒁳) 13:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
New reference, especially for those who are against Russian intervention. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 14:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Latest from BBC.
Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.
The figure is far lower than the 1,600 people Russia initially said had died.
Please update the infobox with the latest information. For my part, I am glad the human toll has been so much lower than initially feared. 76.64.217.42 ( talk) 16:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
What happened to the 19 Russian MIA? And the 74 dead has been changed to 64 dead. They corrected the figure by a factor of 10. I don't know how can you list 10 people more dead than there actually are but W/E. http://gazeta.ru/news/lenta/2008/0/20/n_1260079.shtml
Потери российских войск в Южной Осетии составили 64 погибшими и 323 ранеными, привел уточненные данные замначальника Генштаба ВС России Анатолий Ноговицын. Ранее сообщалось, что 74 миротворца погибли и 171 был ранен. «Число погибших на сегодняшний день уменьшилось. От заявленных 74 человек 10-го числа сегодня количество погибших миротворцев составляет 64 человека», – сказал Ноговицын. По его словам, ранения различной степени получили 323 российских миротворца
Google-translation----------------------
Losses of Russian troops in South Ossetia was 64 dead and 323 wounded, led refined data VS Russia Deputy Chief of General Staff Anatoly Nogovitsyn. Previously, it was reported that 74 peacekeepers were killed and 171 injured. "The death toll so far declined. From 10 claimed 74 people - the first of today the number of peacekeepers killed 64 people ", - Nogovitsyn said. According to him, wounds of varying degrees were 323 Russian peacekeepers
Just because they don't mention the MIA doesn't mean there aren't any. It should be changed back to 19 until they state that they have been found.
The official name of Russia is The Russian Federation. I changed it, please do not edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sturm31 ( talk • contribs) 19:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Someone should add in the russian section of casualties 5 captured [1] and add in the georgian section of casualties 37 captured [2] [3]. Also the current estimate of 215 killed and 300 missing georgian soldiers is not correct. The 215 killed estimate includes both soldiers, civilians and soldiers. That reference that states 215 killed says 69 civilians, 13 policemen and 133 soldiers killed, it also says 70 soldiers missing. The other reference put says 160 soldiers killed and 300 missing. So the Georgian section of casualties should say something like this:
Confirmed by Georgia:
160 soldiers killed and 300 missing
[4] (One official's estimate from 8/18)
133 soldiers and 13 policemen killed, 70 soldiers missing [5] (One official's estimate from 8/19)
Btw, INFOBOX IS WRONG! Now it reads: "Russian/Ossetian initial estimate of more than 2,000 South Ossetians killed; later scaled down to 133.", but it should read "Russian/Ossetian initial estimate of more than 2,000 South Ossetians killed; later scaled down to 1492, with 133 confirmed by name". 133 isn't an estimate, 1492 is! 80.82.38.14 ( talk) 20:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
According to other wikipedia (the spanish) some of the facts in the infobox are wrong. 2000 civilians dead was a very initial estimate, because soon the ministry of interior of Russia changed it to 1600. 1,492 is actually not the russian number, but the number given by the goverment of South Ossetia (here we could argue about how much it's controlled by Russia). However as far as I know the russian goverment still hasn't moved from the 1600 number. (-- Jaimevelasco ( talk) 03:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
This is not Wikinews. We need not include every estimate, especially an offhand comment from which the BBC distances itself, by an interested source, for the number of refugees. We have 158,000 already. We should have an estimate from some such authority as the UNHCR all too soon. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
As much of "U.S. organization and source" as the UN (with its HQ also in NYC). I see some Russian editors just can't get it. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 21:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Here's the word on it:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=atzbkPai3Y20&refer=home http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=3e09be4d-96d2-4d78-93c9-d315748af630 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4572733.ece
It seems almost a certainty that Russia will recognize them on Monday, but I'm not sure where exactly this should be put here or if it should even be included in the article.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 23:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
This article says "According to Russian President Medvedev, 90% of South Ossetians possess Russian passports and thereby qualify for protection under article 80 of the Russian constitution", but neither of the two sources cited (BBC, Deutsche Welle) say "90%". Does anyone have any other sources? Khoi khoi 03:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
How to click the link:
You're welcome. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Introduction abuses the word "quickly". Could somebody edit it and remove all those works like "quickly" and other similar adjectives to ensure that, at least, introduction contains facts and only facts without any POVs. 89.113.128.63 ( talk) 07:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Moscow, Russia - Three Sukhoi Su-25s and a Tupolev Tu-22 (WAPA) - Four Russian airplanes have been shot down few days ago during a mission in the conflict area between Georgia and South Ossetia by an Ukraine air-defense missile systems BUK-M1, Russian General Anatoli Nogovitsin reported today.
According to General Nogovitsin, three Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot fighters and a Tupoolev Tu-22 strategical bomber were carrying out a reconnaissance mission in the region of the city of Gori, the main command centre of Georgian Army. (Avionews) [9] JCDenton2052 ( talk) 09:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
first sentence now reads "...attack by Georgia into South Ossetia, one of two provinces which had declared independence ..." Did South Ossetia ever declare independence? Another question, wasn't there a total of 4 regions that wanted autonomy, with 2 of them now under full Georgian control? Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 11:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- A South Ossetian declaration of independence (within the U.S.S.R.) in September of 1990 was met with a firm negation from the Georgian government, and in December Georgia abolished South Ossetia’s status as an autonomous oblast and declared a state of emergency in the region.
Russian editors remove the recent history from "History" section. See also the article's talk page. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
and...
Captured Russian Pilots Leave Georgia Voicing Gratitude, Regret -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 12:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia 'distributing passports in the Crimea' (Ukraine)
"The allegation has prompted accusations that Russia is using the same tactics employed in the Georgian breakaway regions of Abhkazia and South Ossetia in order to create a pretext for a war. Russia handed out passports to the residents of the two provinces, which have long looked to Moscow for support, five years ago. The Kremlin has justified its invasion of Georgia in terms of defending its citizens in Abkhazia and South Ossetia from Georgian "aggression"." [10]. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 18:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainians in a West Ukraine are holding Romaninan and Polanda passports, so it's realy not the case. And the most important - when its Georgia started Grad's firing at Osethia Russias action are called "agression". Another reason of Russias invasion is again Georgian attack on it's peacemakers base. Which ussualy forgoten on Western press. Son I don' think we should include this "passport case" here, untill more dteails are revealed. Like how many passports and so on.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:24, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia gave out passports in South Ossetia to use it as a pretect to war, and they are also begining to do it in Ukraine for the same purpose, it seems that with out NATO membership when the Russian lease runs out on Sebastapol in 2017 the Russians will invade part of Ukraine under the pretext of "protecting our citizens whereever they are in the world". MattUK ( talk) 10:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Both Russia and Georgia use International Dating (day month year) format, and I can't see any good reason to use American (month day year) dating format in this article. -- Pete ( talk) 01:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Is it really the "South Ossetia war" and not the "Georgia-Russia war"? __ meco ( talk) 19:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Comments are welcome at Talk:2008 South Ossetia war/Article title Greenshed ( talk) 21:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
half of the background section is taken up by discussion of Georgia's desires for joining NATO, and Kosovo precedent and so forth. Is there any evidence of relevance of this discussion, or is it in the contributor's mind?
Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 20:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The analysis in the press is opinion, not fact, I don't see direct relevance to the topic. Even if we do decide to publish journalists' opinions as content, the connection needs to made in the next with specific references. If not made, I propose scapping all text describing NATO membership application and Kosovo. Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 22:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
It's been over 24 hours, nobody objected or added any additional text to clarify, I am going to remove all talk of NATO and Kosovo from the background. If we want to conjecture about what else might be relevant to the background I suggest we include references in the text on who actually suggested what, and then judge whether such suggestions are notable. Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 19:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Sergej Petrunin >> http://www.sobkorr.ru/news/48A91CE5E0D84.html - Elysander ( talk) 21:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
News Agency Rosbalt published a summary of statements made by several opposition's representatives ( Kasparow, Kowaljow, Mitrochin, Kasjanow. but Limonow and Belych too) > http://www.rosbalt.ru/2008/08/14/513721.html - Elysander ( talk) 23:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The allegation has prompted accusations that Russia is using the same tactics employed in the Georgian breakaway regions of Abhkazia and South Ossetia in order to create a pretext for a war. [11] -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 22:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Fake. Магистер ( talk) 00:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia is selective about extending citizenship and passports to citizens of former Soviet republics who do not have a permanent residence in Russia. Many Ukrainians question this practice and take it personally that South Ossetians were granted passports while the same opportunity is not available to Ukrainians. USchick ( talk) 17:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
This sentence is tagged {{ weasel}}; why? No English speaker would phrase it quite this way, but where's the weasel-wording? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:31, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Resurrecting this conversation.
This article is about military conflict, plain and simple and only those in actual and legitimate control of the military operations should be mentioned in the commanders box. This how I see the list of commanders:
Dmitry Medvedev - Commander-in-Chief (Russia)
Anatoly Khrulyov - Lt. General (Russian Army)
Vladimir Shamanov - Lt. General (Russian Army)
Vyacheslav Borisov - Mj. General (Russian Airforce)
Marat Kulakhmetov - Mj. General (Russian Peacekeepers)
Sulim Yamadayev - Lt. Colonel (Russian Spec. Forces "Vostok")
Eduard Kokoity - Commander-in-Chief (South Ossetia)
Sergei Bagapsh - Commander-in-Chief (Abkhazia)
Mikheil Saakashvili - Commander-in-Chief (Georgia)
Zaza Gogava - Br. General (Georgian Army)
Mamuka Kurashvili - Br. General (Georgian Peacekeepers)
Neither Putin nor Georgian defense minster Davit Kezerashvili belong on the list. Zealander ( talk) 04:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Technically Mendev is "Commander in Cheif" of the Russian armed forces, however however Putin is "Commander in Cheif" of Mendev (not on any open legal basis, more if you dont do everything I tell you my ex-KGB friends will cause you, or members of your family to "disappear"), so he really should be up there. MattUK ( talk) 08:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Why in the article there are no information on the Russian peacekeepers which were in South Ossetia legally and have been killed by the Georgian armies in the first days of the conflict? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.15.253.240 ( talk) 11:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
According to one Russian reporter (written in Russian) the conflict may have started when an altercation erupted between Georgian troops and Russian peacekeepers who were all eating a meal together, where 15 of the Russian peacekeepers ended up being shot. The fact that Russian reporters are the only ones who have access to the area, means that their reports may be first ones available, and sometimes the only ones. Here's the link to the article. No source is cited, mentioned toward the end as something the writer heard, but no one knows for sure. http://www.expert.ru/articles/2008/08/13/kochetkov_photo/ USchick ( talk) 20:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
This article (on Wikipedia) may be the most comprehensive discussion of this historical event. Great job guys!!!!! USchick ( talk) 18:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Introduction is still not limited to facts, as I see. It introduces a lot of POV via adjectives. The reader should make its own judgment of whether something is "significant" or "massive". The judgment should not be imposed upon the reader. I'll try to cite all I see here:
Will somebody remove those adjectives, please (and maybe I've missed something else, too) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.113.128.63 ( talk) 17:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=prev&oldid=233361922
Faking of quotations !! Elysander ( talk) 17:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Why is there a random hyperlink at the top of this article? Could an admin please stick it in its rightful place, please. (Ta, muchly!) Orthorhombic ( talk) 20:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Do we really need to internally link the date and year? There is so many "blue links" it's making the article hard to navigate. It really adds nothing to the article and clutters navigating to links that may add to the readers understanding of this conflict. -- «Javier»| Talk 20:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=prev&oldid=232701715 (vandalized by Igny )
Did interfax delete following self-compromising news in its online archive http://www.interfax.com/3/416284/news.aspx released on August 4th, 2008 ?? Content >> Southossetian envoy in Moskow did report about Russian volunteers streaming to the frontlines in the South Kaukasus. << Elysander ( talk) 21:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Would it be possible to suggest the following as a rejigged introduction, correcting some of the grammatical errors, and paring down the size of the introductory text significantly:
The 2008 South Ossetia war began on August 7, 2008, with a military attack by Georgia into the break-away province of South Ossetia, which since 1992 de facto has enjoyed a high degree of autonomy.[18] [19] Russian armed forces responded with a counter-attack into South Ossetia, also advancing into provinces of Georgia outside South Ossetia. A preliminary cease-fire was signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008.
On August 2, 2008, conflict between Georgian and South Ossetian forces increased sharply, with the former claiming to be motivated by rocket attacks and the latter claiming to be responding to a heavy bombarbment of Tshinvallia. A stream of refugees from South Ossetia fled into Russian region of North Ossetia, reaching an estimated 30,000 of the 70,000 overall population.[23] More than 11,000 of them would return after the intervention of Russia in the war.[24]
The direct involvement of the Russian Federation began on August 7 by with an attack on Georgian forces in South Ossetia. They were successful in driving the Georgian troops out of Tskhinvali and struck targets in and around the city of Gori. By August 18, about 100,000 ethnic Georgians had fled their homes in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Georgia proper due to the conflict,[29] while many of their homes were reportedly looted and destroyed by pro-Russian irregular forces.
At present, the Russian military has announced that it has begun a ten day withdrawl from advance positions. Western nations have largely condemned the Russian actions, but the conflict is seen by all parties as connected to the expansion of NATO into Eastern Europe.
I really do think that this is fair. This speel needs to be pared down: it is an introduction after all. As to any POV issues regarding my edits, I have tried to present known facts and a balance of opinions, before ending by placing the conflict in its broader global realpolitik context.
If cannot please both sides, then the least that I hope that it will do is please neither side. Suggestions welcome.
Currently we have:
By preliminary estimate the 2008 South Ossetia war began on August 7, 2008 with a military attack by Georgia into its break-away province South Ossetia, since 1992 a de facto independent entity.[18] [19] Russian armed forces responded with a counter-attack into South Ossetia, also advancing into provinces of Georgia outside South Ossetia. A preliminary cease-fire was arranged by the President-in-Office of the European Union, French President Nicolas Sarkozy, on August 12, and signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008.
The war involves the country of Georgia, the Russian Federation and the breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Just hours after Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili declared a cease-fire with South Ossetian separatist troops, Georgian military forces unleashed a barrage of shelling on the province's capital, Tskhinvali, late Thursday and early Friday. Georgia then proceeded to launch a massive military offensive in South Ossetia.[20][21] The Georgian government said the troops had been sent to end the shelling of Georgian civilians by South Ossetian secessionists.[22] In the following battle, the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, was damaged. Starting on the August 2 and increasing with the intensifying fighting, a stream of refugees from South Ossetia fled into Russian region of North Ossetia, reaching an estimated 30,000 of the 70,000 overall population.[23] More than 11,000 of them returned after the intervention of Russia in the war.[24] South Ossetian and Russian authorities alleged a civilian death toll of over 2,000 early in the conflict.[25] However, on August 13 Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch, while acknowledging that investigation was not yet complete, said that this figure was "suspicious" and "very doubtful", citing a Tshinvalli hospital report of 273 wounded and 44 dead.[26].
Russia responded the next day by large scale bombardment of Georgian military and civilian targets by sending troops and armor into South Ossetia, driving the Georgian troops out of Tskhinvali. The Russian air attacks on the Georgian city of Gori also hit civilian targets.[27] The president of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili claims that Russia is attempting to cause a regime change to depose the democraticly elected Georgian government due to Georgia's close relations with Western nations.[28] By August 18, about 100,000 ethnic Georgians have fled their homes in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Georgia proper due to the conflict,[29] while many of their homes were reportedly looted and destroyed by pro-Russian irregular forces. By August 17, the United Nations confirmed "massive looting" in Gori,[30] while South Ossetia acknowledged it is keeping more than 100 Georgian civilians hostage, including women and children.[31]
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin accused Georgia of committing "genocide"[32] while President Dmitry Medvedev stated that his country's goal was "to force the Georgian side to peace", and that he "must protect lives and the dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are."[32] The Georgian leader has also appealed to the world for help after accusing Russia of conducting "ethnic cleansing" in his country,[33][34] claiming that it had depopulated the entire South Ossetia region of its Georgian civilians and that almost all Georgian residents of Kodori Valley were expelled by the Abkhaz separatists with the aid of the Russian military. The Georgian side has also filed a lawsuit against Russia in the International Court of Justice, claiming Russia, through the separatist authorities in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, violated a convention meant to eliminate racism.[35] South Ossetian separatist leadership said it does "not intend" to let the Georgian civilians return to their homes.[36]
August 12, Georgia launched the application against actions of Russia in the International Court of Justice [37]. Orthorhombic ( talk) 21:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree, the introduction will need to be revised as we continue to have the benefit of hindsight. However:
"On August 2, 2008, conflict between Georgian and South Ossetian forces increased sharply, with the former claiming to be motivated by rocket attacks and the latter claiming to be responding to a heavy bombarbment of Tshinvallia."
Is this a fact? Can it be referenced please? It may be more accurate to state that both sides blame each other for starting the conflict, with ongoing minor hostilities dating back for several decades. According to one Russian report, the hostilities may have started initially with an argument that erupted during dinner, resulting with 15 Russian peacekeepers getting shot in the process. Clearly, these guys are not diplomats with pens as their weapons. :-) Here is the link in Russian.
http://www.expert.ru/articles/2008/08/13/kochetkov_photo/
USchick (
talk)
21:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The introduction should follow the rules of journalism and state undisputed facts. How the war started and who did what will continue to be debated throughout history. In the meantime, what are the facts that we can all agree on? Everyone's opinion here is welcome and valued. 1. This was an armed conflict that started in August of 2008. (Exact date seems to be in question and can be answered in a timeline of events section, unless it is undisputed that August 7 is the official date.) 2. The participants were Georgia on one side. SO, Abkhazia, and Russia on the other side. 3. Both sides blame eachother for starting the conflict. 4. President-in-Office of the European Union and President of France, Nicolas Sarkozy, brokered a cease-fire on August 12, that was signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008. 5. Tshinvalli was the location of the first major battle, with major destruction to non-military targets. Other battles and locations can be listed in a separate section. 6. Civillian refugees trying to get out of the way created a humanitarian crisis. 7. The world watched in horror as this seemingly local border dispute erupted into a nightmare. (This last part is my opinion, but something similar can be said to reflect the fact that the result was severe devastation and that no one else got involved with military action.)
Please contribute other facts or feel free to comment on the ones listed. Once we agree on the facts, let's put them into paragraph form, and viola! that's the introduction, followed by a timeline of events. :-) USchick ( talk) 05:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, taking on board as many people's suggestions as possible, may I suggest this as a rejigged version of the initial paragraph. If it is not able to satisfy both sides (people in perfect agreement don't go to war!), then at the very least it will hopefully satisfy neither side.
The 2008 South Ossetia war began around August 7 was a land, sea and air war fought between the Republic of Georgia on one side and the separatist regions, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and the Russian Federation, on the other, with the earliest battles being fought in and around the city of Tshinvalli. Both parties have blamed the other for starting the war.
The number of refugees from South Ossetia fleeing into Russia reached an estimated 30,000 of the 70,000 overall population. Meanwhile by 18th August, about 100,000 ethnic Georgians had fled their homes due to the conflict,[29] with property reportedly having been looted.
A preliminary ceasefire was signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008. The Russian military has announced a ten-day withdrawal from advance positions, while Georgian authorities have expressed discontent with the rate and extent of the pull-back, and with the continuing Russian presence in port of Poti.
Western nations have largely condemned the Russian actions, while Russia has accused the West of double standards in the light of recent Balkan politics and NATO expansion in Eastern Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orthorhombic ( talk • contribs) 15:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
coming from US ambassador to Russia, this should be worked into the introduction
The U.S. ambassador to Moscow, in a rare U.S. comment endorsing Russia's initial moves in Georgia, described the Kremlin's first military response as legitimate after Russian troops came under attack.
Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 12:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Good description from the article: "Georgian forces attacked South Ossetia, triggering a massive Russian reaction when its peacekeepers there came under fire." Can we use it without infringing on their copyright? Would someone like to take a stab at writing the introduction now, and the rest of us try to be nice about commenting on it? USchick ( talk) 15:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
As far as copyright, I think the rules are that one or two sentences are okay, even if taken verbatim.
The key statement quoted by Globe and Mail seems to only be present in the Russian language page of Kommersant "Мы видим, что российские войска вполне обоснованно ответили на нападение на миротворцев РФ в Южной Осетии." My translation would be "Russian forces responded in a reasonable fashion", not necessarily "legitimate". Too bad it's not clear if the interview was in Russian or English.
Reuters now reports the quote as "justified", saying "...ambassador to Moscow describes Kremlin's first military response as justified after Russian troops came under attack." (Reuters-Ynetnews ) Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 19:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Is it the opinion of the members that Globe and Mail is a reliable source? It's been over 24 hours and neither the Dept of State nor US embassy to Russia has raised any objections. It appears the GnM report can be now treated as a source. Full Russian text of Kommersant interview including quote of interest is still linked on US embassy web page. Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 14:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.crisisgroup.org/library/documents/europe/caucasus/195_russia_vs_georgia___the_fallout.pdf New report by the Crisis Group: a comprehensive history and analysis of the conflict. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 17:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Currently, the article claims that:
the phrasing is clearly intended to convey it as a fact, and does not specifically say who did the counting; however, two references for that senses are not as clear-cut. AP:
RIA Novosti:
So the numbers come from South Ossetian sources, and there is no consensus on how truthful they are. Note that even Russians still only confirm 133 deaths. Considering all this, perhaps it is worth rephrasing the paragraph? -- int19h ( talk) 19:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
We should wait til Southossetia clears its own definition of "Civilian". Elysander ( talk) 11:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Why do Putin supporters remove his name from the infobox and the rest of the article? Maybe Putin wants to work under cover? John McCain said something like this: I looked Putin in his eyes, and it said K G B... 213.50.111.114 ( talk) 21:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I propose the following introduction based on known facts and refraining from any statements that are not facts. If you would like to comment, please read the previous posts discussing what constitutes a fact and what needs to be included. The introduction needs to be followed with a timeline of events. All informed opinions are welcome and valued, please be objective in your comments. Ok, here it is, let the (new) battle begin....
The 2008 South Ossetia War is a military conflict that started on August 7, in the South Caucasus region when Georgian forces attacked the city of Tskhinvali, triggering a massive reaction from Russia when its peacekeepers located there came under fire. Russian troops had military support from South Ossetia, and Abkhazia, two de-facto independent regions located within the country of Georgia. Both sides blamed each other for provoking the use of force and continued to use heavy military action in spite of repeated cease-fire claims.
The first battle took place in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, and resulted in major casualties as well as substantial damage to non-military targets. Civilian refugees attempting to flee from the conflict were not initially allowed safe passage out of the war zone, resulting in a humanitarian crisis. Major battles took place in South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and spread to Tbillisi, the Capital of Georgia, with Russian troops occupying the affected territory.
President-in-Office of the European Union, Nicolas Sarkozy, brokered a cease-fire on August 12 that was signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008. Both sides agreed to a six-point peace plan and to end the military hostilities. USchick ( talk) 22:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
A rather interesting piece of data from CERN: http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/asp/prod_free.asp?pid=1246 Might come in handy as a reference in Damages/Humanitarian Impact sections. From the page:
An estimated total of 438 buildings within the mapped extent of Tskhinvali have been classified either as destroyed or severely damaged. An important preliminary finding of this satellite damage analysis is the observed heavy concentration of building damages within clearly defined residential areas.
Gleb ( talk) 01:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
I am not trying to make a point. The assessment contains factual data which can be incorporated into the second paragraph of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war#South_Ossetians, which currently references anecdotal sources. Something like:
According to a preliminary satellite damage assessment of Tskinvali carried out by United Nations UNOSAT program, "[a]n estimated total of 438 buildings . . . have been classified either as destroyed or severely damaged" with "observed heavy concentration of building damages within clearly defined residential areas".
Gleb ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Could someone please update occupation of Gori and raid on Poti? Thanks! — Nightstallion 09:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
The Economist in its August 16th print issue, on p. 11 (see [14] online) writes: "Russia has made perfunctory attempts to justify the invasion. It claimed that it was defending Russian citizens. This excuse, as Sweden’s foreign minister tartly noted, recalled Hitler’s justifications of Nazi invasions." User:Mateat 2:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
The Economist has such a stellar reputation of predicting Russian military actions, that it's managed to call every Russian military conflict dead wrong. Just read their editorials on Russia losing the Second Chechen Wars. Or their editorials on the US winning in Iraq. Or the one about Ukraine going to war with Russia. How can any military professional take them seriously? Militarily, they're a joke, and this is a war, ergo military, article. The Economist is a respectable source in ECONOMY, not in military history, where they, quite frankly, get nearly everything wrong. Also, comparisons are irrelevant. I can easily write up an article comparing Saakashvili to Stalin, and anyone, with enough imagination, can compare Bush and/or Putin to Stalin as well. Stalin's so popular these days, I think there has to be a wikipedia article about him somewhere. Honorable Wikipedia editors, Mateat and Narking, you can help out the Stalin Article, and create the list of the people he's been compared to, because for this article, it's irrelevant! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.166.129.39 ( talk) 07:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Following news was publshed by interfax on August 5th , 2008 - and then obviously deleted in its newsarchive after August 11th. The news according google cache: http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:hP3H7LWp00MJ:www.interfax.com/3/416284/news.aspx+http://www.interfax.com/3/416284/news.aspx&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=de
11:06 GMT, Aug 05, 2008 Volunteers arriving in South Ossetia - president's envoy MOSCOW. Aug 5 (Interfax) - Volunteers are arriving in South Ossetia to offer help in the event of Georgian aggression, Dmitry Medoyev, a South Ossetian presidential envoy, has said. "Volunteers are arriving already, primarily from North Ossetia. Ossetians are one nation and one culture," Medoyev said at a news conference in Moscow on Tuesday. Russian regions in the North Caucasus, and Russian Cossacks have demonstrated readiness to support South Ossetia, he said. "We have received offers of help from the North Caucasus and from the Cossacks in southern Russia," Medoyev said. "But Tskhinvali will count on its own forces in the first instance. We have armed forces of our own," he said. A guerilla war will begin in the event of Georgian aggression against South Ossetia, and South Ossetia will launch a railway warfare against Georgia, Medoyev said. "We will watch how Georgia will manage to fulfill its oil transit obligations then," said Medoyev.
Hmmm... in the early days of the Russia-Georgia war, there were several reports at gazeta.ru and lenta.ru about the big losses suffered by the Russians between Tchinvali and Dzhava. They were then deleted within a few hours. The FSB guys act quickly... -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 08:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Here's the
original article in Russian. The news archive database of interfax.com seems to be much smaller. --
Illythr (
talk)
12:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
More of this story is at http://www.ogj.com/search/results.cfm?si=OGJ&collection=ogj&keywords=Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan&x=17&y=11 the oil and gas journal. (Hypnosadist) 13:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
User:Advokat has just removed the UN official's report of massive looting in Georgian settlements as an "unconfirmed information with a link to a non-existing page". This is a lie. http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LH617289.htm the page is accessible and the article says:
"A United Nations aid convoy managed to enter Gori on Sunday, the first time U.N. organisations have reached the Georgian town since fighting started last week, and found signs of "massive looting". -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 08:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Ive been looking around, and apparently Russian forces have taken several United States Humvees that were at docks for transport. Can anyone find more sources for this? Does this merit inclusion?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-seizes-us-vehicles-902432.html Dtheweather9 ( talk) 21:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
There are rumors of hundreds of Russian dead. My question is how can Russia even hide those hundreds of dead? Do they release the names of the dead or do they just give numbers? I understand why they'd want to hide the dead if they really have ~500 dead, but the truth would finally come out. I think that the Georgians just mistaked the Russians with South Ossetians when they were killing them. Especially that the Ossetians aren't releasing any combatant deaths and only give out numbers like 2000 civilians. The Russians and Ossetians have the same equipment and both looked "rag-tag" I wouldn't be able to tell the difference at first glance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 09:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Should we have new articles about South Ossetia buffer zone and Abkhazia buffer zone since these two areas are new reality on the ground? See: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/2008820143346769471.html 212.69.4.242 ( talk) 19:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
The buffer zones were defined in 1999 and 1992 agreements, does WP have articles on these agreements? That would probably be more important than an article on the zones themselves, or maps of such zones. Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 16:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
The present infobox is rather peculiar - another good night's sleep for Russia's No. 1 - Vladimir Putin. According to WP consensus (huh...) Putin has nothing to do with this war... Why, btw, are the Russians so anxious of cleaning the article from his name? I thought Putin was the role model for contemporary Russians. What Putin does is always right. Nothing to be ashamed of. Or is it? 213.50.111.114 ( talk) 21:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
A solitary user has been changing the dating scheme to 23 August 2008. This is contrary to Wikipedia custom and guidance, and disruptive on this article, where we have more important things to do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:39, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
For the record, the section referred to has half-a-dozen editors. Another editor dissented on the (accurate) ground that we have too many American dates to convert; another supported on the sole ground that autoformating will only work with British dates. This is not true; and we're not autoformatting now anyway. In short, not consensus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Policies and guidelines express standards that have community consensus. Policies are considered a standard that all editors should follow, whereas guidelines are more advisory in nature. Both need to be approached with common sense: adhere to the spirit rather than the letter of the rules, and be prepared to ignore the rules on the rare occasions when they conflict with the goal of improving the encyclopedia. Those who edit in good faith, are civil, seek consensus, and work towards the goal of creating a great encyclopedia should find a welcoming environment.
I heard an expert (dont remember his name) on the BBC who said that the war could have been avoided, should the EU just have deployed some peacekeepers in the two breakaway republics. According to the expert, Russia would not likely break through EU peacekeepers' line. I dont think the Russians would care so much about breaking through an EU peackeeping line. Anyway, I wonder if such a mission has ever been planned by the EU (or Nato) and possible Russian reaction to prevent such a mission to be deployed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.121.84.241 ( talk) 12:27, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
There is talk about using OSCE peacekeepers in the buffer zones, as Sarkozy and Medvedev had discussed (AlJazeera) but it's hard to find amongst all the opinion articles... Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 16:28, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Should the Status section now ready "Russia Occupation of Northern Georgia" rather than "Ceasefire in effect" as both the Georgians and the EU/USA (who brokered the peace deal) say that Russia is in breach of the cease fire agreement. MattUK ( talk) 13:01, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
The views of Russia, that it is allowed to invade sovergin nations when it wants to, that wouldnt be NPOV, according to the text of the cease fire, Russia is in breach of the deal, and is according to international law an occupying force in Georgia, so it's not POV, it is FACT! MattUK ( talk) 14:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
We need an article and map regarding the Russian buffer zones in Georgia. I'm really interested to see how large they are. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 15:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Regarding all talk of "occupation" and peacekeeper status, OSCE monitors are beginning to arrive (OSCE_Arriving), any and all POV comments should be held off until they make statements. Opinions on compliance with the six-point peace plan are only opinions, they will only become fact if ICJ rules on it. Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 15:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can tell the "buffer zones" you refer to were created in four-party talks in 1999, and will be manned in the near future fully by OSCE personnel, so calling them "Russian" is a POV position. perhaps "Buffer zones around SO and Abkhazia", or just "Buffer zones in Georgia" would be NPOV Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 18:25, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
This article
It appears the sole reference for the whole first paragraph has been mangled. It now links to "BBC, US warship reaches Georgian port, 24.08.2008", can anyone restore? Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 17:51, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
“ | Russia's four-day war with Georgia erupted after Tbilisi tried to retake South Ossetia - which broke away in 1992 and was supported by Moscow - in a surprise offensive on 7 August. The offensive followed a series of clashes between Georgian and South Ossetian forces. | ” |
This has already been discussed in the Talk page at considerable length. The BBC does say "surprise", however the overwhelming majority of reliable media sources do not use such language. There was no Georgian "attack" from out of the bright blue sky of peace and harmony to those who followed the background to this conflict. There were a serious of provocations and spiralling tensions. Again, we've been over this before. If there is going to be any assignment to either Russia or Georgia as the instigator, neutrality demands that the counterargument be included as well. It follows that this cannot be covered off in a single clause like "the war began with a surprise attack by Georgia". One could easily say the war began with a Russian invasion on September 8, with the Georgian move analogous to the Georgian moves that retook the Gorge and Batumi. Those events arguably didn't start "wars". Bdell555 ( talk) 18:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
It's not clear that such summaries of opinion pieces add much to the article. But do they add anything at all to the timeline, where I found it? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
A lot of US aligned Eastern European countries, commonly considered part of the "New Europe", were neutral: the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia, (and a lot without an official position: Hungary, Slovenia, Republic of Macedonia, Albania). So the "International reactions" section presents an inaccurate view. Baltaci ( talk) 19:53, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the last para of the "media bias" section should be deleted. That's simply because wire story titles change all the time. This is not news. Newspapers can title wire stories whatever they want and often change them, other times they don't change them while the wire service does. The title often changes throughout the day as well. I don't see how this relates to media bias. Bdell555 ( talk) 21:21, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
On the 23 August, a story was published on Reuters entitled "Georgian forces back in control of strategic road" by Margarita Antidze [8], various news websites had republished it including: Times of Malta, Washington Post, ReliefWeb, Khaleej Times, Economic Times, Canada.com, elEconomista.es, Calgary Herald, The Gazette (Montreal), and MorungExpress. However, during the day, the story had been changed, on the Reuters website, and was later entitled "Russian forces still in Georgia" by Niko Mchedlishvili. [9] Whereas most news website had kept the original story, the Washington post and Yahoo news stories had been changed as had Reuters'. Gareth Jones had signed the initial version, "Russia troops still in Georgia after pullout" [10]. Between 3:15-6:19 am GMT the article was edited and signed Gareth Jones again. [11]. 6:57-8:22 am GMT the article is replaced and now entitled "Georgia back in control of strategic road" by Margarita Antidze [12], which is then edited before 9:27 GMT [8]. It is later replaced yet again to end up as "Russian forces still in Georgia" by Niko Mchedlishvili [9]
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4566892.ece As per this times article is it worth mentioning that after the "peace deal" Russia is continuing to attack Georgian positions, bases, and destroy not only military assets but also civilian rescoucse and infrastructure. They are also “capturing” (read kidnapping) military personnel from outside the areas they occupied when the peace deal was signed. Additionally they have stolen US vehicles that were awaiting shipment back the US (they were not being used by the Georgians) All of this is not only in breach of the terms of the “peace deal” but also breaks international law, could someone please include this into the main article, maybe a section on Russia’s breaking of treaties, as well as breaking of international law (possibly war crimes)? 81.149.82.243 ( talk) 16:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Have you wondered that maybe they are trying to weaken the Georgian army so this won't happen again anytime soon? -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 18:24, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
On US vehicles, the Russians took four amphibious-kit Humvees -- see here for instance. I hadn't thought that the Russian detention of Georgian soldiers, with a ceasefire signed, is likelier to be kidnapping than capturing... But still, even though it doesn't appear (yet?) on the list of WP:NOTs, Wikipedia is not the Hague Tribunal. Reuters, Human Rights Watch, the AP, and so on are giving very clear evidence of war crimes and an ugly sort of malfeasance, but we don't know how far up the chain culpability runs -- we should wait until a notable source makes indictments, and then document that action, rather than making the indictment ourselves. If you know of such sources, however, please add them: I certainly will if I encounter any. ExOttoyuhr ( talk) 19:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
"Operating without command" is not a valid reason to kidnap someone, they weren't armed at the time, and weren't attacking the Russians, and were also on the Georgian side of the lines which were established pre the "cease fire". Launching a raid over a cease fire line after a cease fire has been signed to capture anyone (millitary personel or otherwise) is kidnap, not arrest or capture according to the rules of war. The Humvees were vehicles belonging to the US millitary, but it's not as if they were tanks, they didnt have any weapons on them, so that's like saying you can steal any vehicle because "it might be used for military purposes" (additionally they were actually packed in locked shipping containers ready for shipment, and the Georgians hadnt even gone near them as they were in a civilian port), additionally Russia had to ADVANCE AFTER THE "CEASE FIRE" to steal the vehicles, it has also been destroying civillian infrastructure, vehicles, ships, buildings and property, also there are numerous reports (from verifiable international press sources) of Russian armed forces looting from Georgian Civillians, both in Georgia proper, and in the South Ossetian region. As well as the fact that the 20% of buildings that are claimed to have been damaged or destroyed in the action in South Ossetia, it is estimated that 2-4% were damaged by Georgian troops, with the remaining 16-18% destroyed in the subsequent Russian Invasion. 81.149.82.243 ( talk) 08:55, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
According to the article as it currently stands, the war is simply caused by conflicting interests as regards to a tiny province called South Ossetia north of the capital of Georgia. The article doesn't really deal with ex Soviet republic of Georgia's aspiration of Nato membership, Russia's geopolitical interests, particularly as regards to its "backyard" (i.e. former Soveiet republics as a whole, and maybe what used to be Europe to east of the Iron curtain), the message Krimlin wants to send to neighbors who intend to go against Russia's intersts. Etc, etc. So, how about an introductory article section called geopolitical backround dealing with these issues? -- Hapsala ( talk) 19:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
its about keeping georgia out of NATO by toppling their crazy president —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.76.40.251 ( talk) 03:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The war is related to the current Russian regime (Putin et al) to recreate the USSR with them as it's dictators, to do so they are moving down the route of anexxing parts of surrounding nations, and will eventually attempt to install puppet regimes, or mount full scale invasions under some kind of pretext. 81.149.82.243 ( talk) 09:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
As you can see there are a lot of point of view, that are opposite to one each other. The idea of finding the reason of the war /the way it is stated in the head/ is great, but I don't see how we can do it here w/o starting another editors war.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian Federation
ComanL ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia have it's 14 or 15 soldiers captured.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
"Anatoly Nogovitsin, the deputy chief of staff, said at a news conference on August 13, that although no verified data was available, but “I’ve heard Georgia has lost 4,000 men.” " Hearsay? I don't know, he just "heard". I don't know if we can write the 4,000 figure with just that source-- Jaimevelasco ( talk) 21:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
A search on Google News bring up the following results for each potential name:
I should note several of the results on Georgia war/conflict actually refer to it as Russia-Georgia. This probably doesn't even accurately reflect the extent of media coverage as the results for South Ossetia also include results from the days leading up to the major conflict. One also has to take into consideration the organizations using these terms. Those using South Ossetia are primarily regional news organizations while those calling it a Russia-Georgia conflict include CNN, AFP, AP, Reuters, NPR, The Times, The Guardian, MSNBC, Fox News, Business Week, USA Today, Financial Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, International Herald Tribune, Xinhua, and countless others. This clearly is the name which has been adopted. Whether this will be the name history gives it is a much later question, but for now it is clear what this article should be called. It's time to stop all this idiotic bickering over whether there has been a consensus on naming, it's not like we can't include the names in the intro like every other conflict. I suggest the article be renamed Russia-Georgia Conflict with the intro providing some of the other popular names.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 01:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I did not find any article that did not refer to this particular conflict but I suppose some may be. Variations include "Russian invasion of Georgia", "Georgia: Russian invasion", "Russian invasion of a neighboring country", etc. For example: "Russian invasion of Georgia": 446 results ---( PaC ( talk) 04:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC))
As someone mentioned a week ago about this same issue; wikipedia is not a popularity contest. The Hundred Years War was not called so until after the fact ... which doesn't make much of an argument, but I think that the conflict began in the geographical region of South Ossetia, and therefore it defines the conflict, like "100 years" defines that conflict (even if it wasn't 100 years long). It isn't like Russia and Georgia went to all out war against one another, there were no formal declarations, and if they did, Russian troops would be in Tbilisi. I personally think that by leaving the title that is in place now, all concerned parties will know exactly what the article is talking about. Let's face it, in citing all those American based sources, most news anchors can't pronounce "Ossetia" and "Russia vs. Georgia" registers much clearer with American viewers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Menrunningpast ( talk • contribs) 04:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
A search on Google: "Bush is a fool" - 78 800 results. Магистер ( talk) 10:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
If you search "Putin Terrorist" in Google, you get 3.4 million results, so your point is? "Results 1 - 10 of about 3,400,000 for putin terrorist. (0.20 seconds)" MattUK ( talk) 10:20, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
If you put quotetion marks around it for more precision, you get this:
So, the name, in my opinion, should be "South Ossetian Conflict". -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 12:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Comments on the article's name are welcome at Talk:2008 South Ossetia war/Article title. Greenshed ( talk) 14:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
An interesting look at the back story of this conflict [1] from the BBC, who would have thought oil might be a motive? (Hypnosadist) 02:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
There are repots on the Times online website that say that Russia bombed the pipeline, it's not so much to gain control of the oil and natural gas, but to for it's flow to be though Russia, under the control of Moscow, rather than letting countries have independant control of their own rescources. MattUK ( talk) 10:38, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Just a point I would like to mention, and defer to the more experianced editors on here, but is anyone else having problems with posts which are made in one section appearing in the section above or below the one it was meant to be in. I'm not clicking the wrong "edit" link, as I've checked the "Subject/headline:" field before posting, any ideas out there from the more knowledgable Wikipedians? MattUK ( talk) 10:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
A McClatchy report from Tskhinvali confirms 40 killed there, a number very close to that of Human Rights Watch. I suggest adjusting the 44 number to "40-odd" or "low 40s" and say "According to HRW and McClatchy..." or something like that. Bdell555 ( talk) 01:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
And where do you think McClatchy got his number, rounded? :) BTW, that "44 dead" figure doesn't mean "total dead" at all, these are wounded people who died in the hospital of Tskhinvali - methinks it should be made more clear in the article. Corpses from the streets were not transported to the hospital (its morgue is probably too small anyway), they're being collected into the mobile refrigerators (also there's a lot of improvised graves according to reporters). Nor does it include casualties in nearby villages, or people evacuated into North Ossetia and later dying there. I can't provide link now, i had seen that on TV only. Still no official number afaik, investigation is underway. 195.218.210.172 ( talk) 03:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be quite naive to assume that Tkhinvlis destruction was perpetrated by Georgians alone. Georgians took the city with a rapid advance supported by artillery. Russia dislodged the Georgians from the city with artillery, tanks and bombers. Grozny shows the history of Russian tactics to dislodge opposing forces. The destrucion of Tskhinvali was perpetrated by mutual forces. A clear aspect of bias is present here as the only sources we have for Tkhinvalis destrucion, even today, are Russian. NO international media has been allowed that far north. 70.193.63.107 ( talk) 04:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Just a heads up, but linking to the video on youtube is a violation of Fox New's copyright and isn't allowed per WP:YOUTUBE. I'd say the coverage in other sources should be enough to discuss the alleged missteps on youtube's part. If you feel a video of the interview is necessary, you'll have to find it through Fox New's site. A ni Mate 03:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC) cunty
WHY someone keeps deleting this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCwTo9AdT2c ? From the Talk section, wth? I think it has to be discussed as well. Maybe someone can find official link, so it can go into main article. 195.218.210.175 ( talk) 19:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
From Your Local Infobox:
"Russian/Ossetian estimate more than 2,000 South Ossetians killed.[10] Russian/Ossetian claim a confirmed 60-200 Ossetian civilian corpses identified and 500 more unaccounted for.[11]"
Which would make 560-700, but not 2,000. So...? And how can you "confirm 60-200"? Either one single number is confirmed or it's another estimate.--
megA (
talk)
19:50, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
HRW's reports should be taken with care, but IMO thay aren't bad.
Number 60-200 is pretty wide, but I think it's more or less realistic. 1500-2000 was taken from Osethian government. In the begining Prime Minister Putin sad about Tshinvali "Tens are dead and hundreds are wounded" - I think it is pretty realable.--
Oleg Str (
talk)
09:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Really now? The only thing that the section says that asserts actual withdrawal is a claim about Reuters which their article doesn't actually say. (It says some vehicles left Gori, but it doesn't say where to.) The title is therefore inaccurate, and (since only the Russians claim, so far, there is a withdrawal) POV. And even if we knew more, the assertion that this is the beginning of something not yet happened is purest WP:CRYSTAL. Unsupported Russian claims do not belong in the timeline, any more than they did yesterday. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Well there is something to thik about. Yeah right. But for some pplz life seems sweeter, when they think that it's only Russia's Putin you can't believe. Not own Bush, Ushenko, Mihiko or whoever ^-). There were no battle for Gori, cos Georgians military left it. There also left no administration in Gori. There are numerous reports of Western journalists, that soldiers here are jumping on their trucks and leaving to the Tbilisi at hight speed. City admninstration and Police, some civilians folowed them. So ppls were left just like this. While main Russian forces stayed out of a city. Some Russian squads where there to take a Police role. They are not numerous enough to make a military force. And waiting for the georgian police to come. That's what I know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oleg Str ( talk • contribs)
Russia has yet to begin withdrawal, they have in fact advanced from the lines they held pre the "cease fire", this has been verified many times by Georgian officials, foreign officials, neutral observers (HRW, UNHRC), as well as extra-governmental organisations such as NATO (Virtually every reliable news source has these news stories), the only people claiming that they are withdrawing were the Russians, and they backtracked once they were caught out. One of the reasons the Russian government, officials and media (which is state controlled) is not a reliable source is that they have consistantly lied from the begining, only to change their story when they get caught out but reliable sources. MattUK ( talk) 10:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I would like to remove the first paragraph of the Russian Intervention section:
In the opinion of the independent Russian military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer, "Russia's invasion of Georgia had been planned in advance, with the final political decision to complete the preparations and start war in August apparently having been made back in April."[65]
I think Pavel's opinion adds nothing to the goal of neutrally presenting the information. I do not see that his opinion belongs here. Yourcomrade ( talk) 22:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC) User:yourcomrade
Pavel Felgenhauer ~~ Why should be the citation of an essay from a well known Russian defence analyst published in a Russian media that's not controlled anyway by Russian state against the goal of neutrality ?? Elysander ( talk) 23:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
And a little bit ;-) earlier than Felgenhauer >> Monday, August 4th 2008 : Moscow Orchestrates War Scare in South Ossetia - http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373282 - Elysander ( talk) 23:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
This is a difficult point to argue, would you say that an American crack down on illegal immigrants in Calaforina made a Mexican invasion of the Southern USA acceptable? I certainly wouldnt. Georgia was acting within it's own (internationally recognised) territory, the so called Russian "Peacekeepers" (not internationally recognised, only accepted by Georgia a few years ago at gun point (let them stay or we'll attack you) after the Russians basically invaded South Ossetia under a pretext) borders, Russia then preceded to invade not only the region of South Ossetia, but large areas of the rest of Georgia, and then destroyed large amounts of infrastructure and property (there are at the moment unverified reports of Russian millitary personel demolishing buildings and then claiming that they were destroyed by Georgians, these will probably be verified by HWR or some other international observers soon enough). Under all international laws Russias actions are illegal, they invaded a soverign nation, attacked that countries millitary and civillians within it's own boarders, destroyed civillian infrastructure, looted civillian property (there are reports unverified reports of rape and beatings) as well as other illegal actions, some of which may be classed as war crimes. MattUK ( talk) 09:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
While it is deplorable, civilian casualties are not a new thing at all. Reporting on it is absolutely necessary, but are we going to label Russia, U.S.A., China, Britain, France, ad infinitum as personally grotesque for their participation in these attrocities as in blaming the one instead of the other? Japan fought a war of indescribable abuse and misery and the U.S.A. responded with THE most horrific weapon known to man and used it on civilians. Really, the worst thing about war is war itself. Adding up civilian casualties on the one side over the other seems to me remarkably dangerous. Imagine a war without civilian casualties. I suspect that the combatants would find what they were doing - fighting in a remote desert with not a civilian around, rather absurd. Then, when the victor returns to the "conquered territory" only to find that the disappointed citizens of that land have decided to mount an armed insurgence - My God!! We love to kill, don't we. Leather-stockings ( talk) 00:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The current status is "Conflict ongoing, ceasefire currently in effect", would this be better worded as "Conflict ongoing, ceasefire currently observed by the Georgian Millitary", I say this on the basis that the Russian armed forces and the Russian backed and equipped Militias have advanced since the cease fire, captured more Georgian personell and equipment and continued destruction of Georgian millitary and civillian property and infrastructre in contravention of the cease fire document which stated that all actions by the millitaries and militias would cease with immediate effect, and all sides would withdraw to the positions before the conflict began. MattUK ( talk) 10:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
it isn't useful to try and keep this article updated up-to-the-minute. So the Russians prance around a few days before retreating. The ceasefire is still in effect, and in the larger schemes of things, it is hardly important if the Russians withdrew on 18 or on 21 August. We can change the note as soon as the Russians confirmedly violate the ceasefire. -- dab (𒁳) 13:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
New reference, especially for those who are against Russian intervention. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 14:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Latest from BBC.
Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.
The figure is far lower than the 1,600 people Russia initially said had died.
Please update the infobox with the latest information. For my part, I am glad the human toll has been so much lower than initially feared. 76.64.217.42 ( talk) 16:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
What happened to the 19 Russian MIA? And the 74 dead has been changed to 64 dead. They corrected the figure by a factor of 10. I don't know how can you list 10 people more dead than there actually are but W/E. http://gazeta.ru/news/lenta/2008/0/20/n_1260079.shtml
Потери российских войск в Южной Осетии составили 64 погибшими и 323 ранеными, привел уточненные данные замначальника Генштаба ВС России Анатолий Ноговицын. Ранее сообщалось, что 74 миротворца погибли и 171 был ранен. «Число погибших на сегодняшний день уменьшилось. От заявленных 74 человек 10-го числа сегодня количество погибших миротворцев составляет 64 человека», – сказал Ноговицын. По его словам, ранения различной степени получили 323 российских миротворца
Google-translation----------------------
Losses of Russian troops in South Ossetia was 64 dead and 323 wounded, led refined data VS Russia Deputy Chief of General Staff Anatoly Nogovitsyn. Previously, it was reported that 74 peacekeepers were killed and 171 injured. "The death toll so far declined. From 10 claimed 74 people - the first of today the number of peacekeepers killed 64 people ", - Nogovitsyn said. According to him, wounds of varying degrees were 323 Russian peacekeepers
Just because they don't mention the MIA doesn't mean there aren't any. It should be changed back to 19 until they state that they have been found.
The official name of Russia is The Russian Federation. I changed it, please do not edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sturm31 ( talk • contribs) 19:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Someone should add in the russian section of casualties 5 captured [1] and add in the georgian section of casualties 37 captured [2] [3]. Also the current estimate of 215 killed and 300 missing georgian soldiers is not correct. The 215 killed estimate includes both soldiers, civilians and soldiers. That reference that states 215 killed says 69 civilians, 13 policemen and 133 soldiers killed, it also says 70 soldiers missing. The other reference put says 160 soldiers killed and 300 missing. So the Georgian section of casualties should say something like this:
Confirmed by Georgia:
160 soldiers killed and 300 missing
[4] (One official's estimate from 8/18)
133 soldiers and 13 policemen killed, 70 soldiers missing [5] (One official's estimate from 8/19)
Btw, INFOBOX IS WRONG! Now it reads: "Russian/Ossetian initial estimate of more than 2,000 South Ossetians killed; later scaled down to 133.", but it should read "Russian/Ossetian initial estimate of more than 2,000 South Ossetians killed; later scaled down to 1492, with 133 confirmed by name". 133 isn't an estimate, 1492 is! 80.82.38.14 ( talk) 20:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
According to other wikipedia (the spanish) some of the facts in the infobox are wrong. 2000 civilians dead was a very initial estimate, because soon the ministry of interior of Russia changed it to 1600. 1,492 is actually not the russian number, but the number given by the goverment of South Ossetia (here we could argue about how much it's controlled by Russia). However as far as I know the russian goverment still hasn't moved from the 1600 number. (-- Jaimevelasco ( talk) 03:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
This is not Wikinews. We need not include every estimate, especially an offhand comment from which the BBC distances itself, by an interested source, for the number of refugees. We have 158,000 already. We should have an estimate from some such authority as the UNHCR all too soon. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
As much of "U.S. organization and source" as the UN (with its HQ also in NYC). I see some Russian editors just can't get it. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 21:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Here's the word on it:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=atzbkPai3Y20&refer=home http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=3e09be4d-96d2-4d78-93c9-d315748af630 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4572733.ece
It seems almost a certainty that Russia will recognize them on Monday, but I'm not sure where exactly this should be put here or if it should even be included in the article.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 23:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
This article says "According to Russian President Medvedev, 90% of South Ossetians possess Russian passports and thereby qualify for protection under article 80 of the Russian constitution", but neither of the two sources cited (BBC, Deutsche Welle) say "90%". Does anyone have any other sources? Khoi khoi 03:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
How to click the link:
You're welcome. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Introduction abuses the word "quickly". Could somebody edit it and remove all those works like "quickly" and other similar adjectives to ensure that, at least, introduction contains facts and only facts without any POVs. 89.113.128.63 ( talk) 07:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Moscow, Russia - Three Sukhoi Su-25s and a Tupolev Tu-22 (WAPA) - Four Russian airplanes have been shot down few days ago during a mission in the conflict area between Georgia and South Ossetia by an Ukraine air-defense missile systems BUK-M1, Russian General Anatoli Nogovitsin reported today.
According to General Nogovitsin, three Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot fighters and a Tupoolev Tu-22 strategical bomber were carrying out a reconnaissance mission in the region of the city of Gori, the main command centre of Georgian Army. (Avionews) [9] JCDenton2052 ( talk) 09:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
first sentence now reads "...attack by Georgia into South Ossetia, one of two provinces which had declared independence ..." Did South Ossetia ever declare independence? Another question, wasn't there a total of 4 regions that wanted autonomy, with 2 of them now under full Georgian control? Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 11:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- A South Ossetian declaration of independence (within the U.S.S.R.) in September of 1990 was met with a firm negation from the Georgian government, and in December Georgia abolished South Ossetia’s status as an autonomous oblast and declared a state of emergency in the region.
Russian editors remove the recent history from "History" section. See also the article's talk page. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
and...
Captured Russian Pilots Leave Georgia Voicing Gratitude, Regret -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 12:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia 'distributing passports in the Crimea' (Ukraine)
"The allegation has prompted accusations that Russia is using the same tactics employed in the Georgian breakaway regions of Abhkazia and South Ossetia in order to create a pretext for a war. Russia handed out passports to the residents of the two provinces, which have long looked to Moscow for support, five years ago. The Kremlin has justified its invasion of Georgia in terms of defending its citizens in Abkhazia and South Ossetia from Georgian "aggression"." [10]. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 18:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainians in a West Ukraine are holding Romaninan and Polanda passports, so it's realy not the case. And the most important - when its Georgia started Grad's firing at Osethia Russias action are called "agression". Another reason of Russias invasion is again Georgian attack on it's peacemakers base. Which ussualy forgoten on Western press. Son I don' think we should include this "passport case" here, untill more dteails are revealed. Like how many passports and so on.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:24, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia gave out passports in South Ossetia to use it as a pretect to war, and they are also begining to do it in Ukraine for the same purpose, it seems that with out NATO membership when the Russian lease runs out on Sebastapol in 2017 the Russians will invade part of Ukraine under the pretext of "protecting our citizens whereever they are in the world". MattUK ( talk) 10:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Both Russia and Georgia use International Dating (day month year) format, and I can't see any good reason to use American (month day year) dating format in this article. -- Pete ( talk) 01:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Is it really the "South Ossetia war" and not the "Georgia-Russia war"? __ meco ( talk) 19:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Comments are welcome at Talk:2008 South Ossetia war/Article title Greenshed ( talk) 21:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
half of the background section is taken up by discussion of Georgia's desires for joining NATO, and Kosovo precedent and so forth. Is there any evidence of relevance of this discussion, or is it in the contributor's mind?
Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 20:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The analysis in the press is opinion, not fact, I don't see direct relevance to the topic. Even if we do decide to publish journalists' opinions as content, the connection needs to made in the next with specific references. If not made, I propose scapping all text describing NATO membership application and Kosovo. Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 22:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
It's been over 24 hours, nobody objected or added any additional text to clarify, I am going to remove all talk of NATO and Kosovo from the background. If we want to conjecture about what else might be relevant to the background I suggest we include references in the text on who actually suggested what, and then judge whether such suggestions are notable. Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 19:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Sergej Petrunin >> http://www.sobkorr.ru/news/48A91CE5E0D84.html - Elysander ( talk) 21:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
News Agency Rosbalt published a summary of statements made by several opposition's representatives ( Kasparow, Kowaljow, Mitrochin, Kasjanow. but Limonow and Belych too) > http://www.rosbalt.ru/2008/08/14/513721.html - Elysander ( talk) 23:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The allegation has prompted accusations that Russia is using the same tactics employed in the Georgian breakaway regions of Abhkazia and South Ossetia in order to create a pretext for a war. [11] -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 22:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Fake. Магистер ( talk) 00:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia is selective about extending citizenship and passports to citizens of former Soviet republics who do not have a permanent residence in Russia. Many Ukrainians question this practice and take it personally that South Ossetians were granted passports while the same opportunity is not available to Ukrainians. USchick ( talk) 17:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
This sentence is tagged {{ weasel}}; why? No English speaker would phrase it quite this way, but where's the weasel-wording? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:31, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Resurrecting this conversation.
This article is about military conflict, plain and simple and only those in actual and legitimate control of the military operations should be mentioned in the commanders box. This how I see the list of commanders:
Dmitry Medvedev - Commander-in-Chief (Russia)
Anatoly Khrulyov - Lt. General (Russian Army)
Vladimir Shamanov - Lt. General (Russian Army)
Vyacheslav Borisov - Mj. General (Russian Airforce)
Marat Kulakhmetov - Mj. General (Russian Peacekeepers)
Sulim Yamadayev - Lt. Colonel (Russian Spec. Forces "Vostok")
Eduard Kokoity - Commander-in-Chief (South Ossetia)
Sergei Bagapsh - Commander-in-Chief (Abkhazia)
Mikheil Saakashvili - Commander-in-Chief (Georgia)
Zaza Gogava - Br. General (Georgian Army)
Mamuka Kurashvili - Br. General (Georgian Peacekeepers)
Neither Putin nor Georgian defense minster Davit Kezerashvili belong on the list. Zealander ( talk) 04:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Technically Mendev is "Commander in Cheif" of the Russian armed forces, however however Putin is "Commander in Cheif" of Mendev (not on any open legal basis, more if you dont do everything I tell you my ex-KGB friends will cause you, or members of your family to "disappear"), so he really should be up there. MattUK ( talk) 08:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Why in the article there are no information on the Russian peacekeepers which were in South Ossetia legally and have been killed by the Georgian armies in the first days of the conflict? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.15.253.240 ( talk) 11:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
According to one Russian reporter (written in Russian) the conflict may have started when an altercation erupted between Georgian troops and Russian peacekeepers who were all eating a meal together, where 15 of the Russian peacekeepers ended up being shot. The fact that Russian reporters are the only ones who have access to the area, means that their reports may be first ones available, and sometimes the only ones. Here's the link to the article. No source is cited, mentioned toward the end as something the writer heard, but no one knows for sure. http://www.expert.ru/articles/2008/08/13/kochetkov_photo/ USchick ( talk) 20:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
This article (on Wikipedia) may be the most comprehensive discussion of this historical event. Great job guys!!!!! USchick ( talk) 18:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Introduction is still not limited to facts, as I see. It introduces a lot of POV via adjectives. The reader should make its own judgment of whether something is "significant" or "massive". The judgment should not be imposed upon the reader. I'll try to cite all I see here:
Will somebody remove those adjectives, please (and maybe I've missed something else, too) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.113.128.63 ( talk) 17:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=prev&oldid=233361922
Faking of quotations !! Elysander ( talk) 17:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Why is there a random hyperlink at the top of this article? Could an admin please stick it in its rightful place, please. (Ta, muchly!) Orthorhombic ( talk) 20:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Do we really need to internally link the date and year? There is so many "blue links" it's making the article hard to navigate. It really adds nothing to the article and clutters navigating to links that may add to the readers understanding of this conflict. -- «Javier»| Talk 20:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=prev&oldid=232701715 (vandalized by Igny )
Did interfax delete following self-compromising news in its online archive http://www.interfax.com/3/416284/news.aspx released on August 4th, 2008 ?? Content >> Southossetian envoy in Moskow did report about Russian volunteers streaming to the frontlines in the South Kaukasus. << Elysander ( talk) 21:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Would it be possible to suggest the following as a rejigged introduction, correcting some of the grammatical errors, and paring down the size of the introductory text significantly:
The 2008 South Ossetia war began on August 7, 2008, with a military attack by Georgia into the break-away province of South Ossetia, which since 1992 de facto has enjoyed a high degree of autonomy.[18] [19] Russian armed forces responded with a counter-attack into South Ossetia, also advancing into provinces of Georgia outside South Ossetia. A preliminary cease-fire was signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008.
On August 2, 2008, conflict between Georgian and South Ossetian forces increased sharply, with the former claiming to be motivated by rocket attacks and the latter claiming to be responding to a heavy bombarbment of Tshinvallia. A stream of refugees from South Ossetia fled into Russian region of North Ossetia, reaching an estimated 30,000 of the 70,000 overall population.[23] More than 11,000 of them would return after the intervention of Russia in the war.[24]
The direct involvement of the Russian Federation began on August 7 by with an attack on Georgian forces in South Ossetia. They were successful in driving the Georgian troops out of Tskhinvali and struck targets in and around the city of Gori. By August 18, about 100,000 ethnic Georgians had fled their homes in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Georgia proper due to the conflict,[29] while many of their homes were reportedly looted and destroyed by pro-Russian irregular forces.
At present, the Russian military has announced that it has begun a ten day withdrawl from advance positions. Western nations have largely condemned the Russian actions, but the conflict is seen by all parties as connected to the expansion of NATO into Eastern Europe.
I really do think that this is fair. This speel needs to be pared down: it is an introduction after all. As to any POV issues regarding my edits, I have tried to present known facts and a balance of opinions, before ending by placing the conflict in its broader global realpolitik context.
If cannot please both sides, then the least that I hope that it will do is please neither side. Suggestions welcome.
Currently we have:
By preliminary estimate the 2008 South Ossetia war began on August 7, 2008 with a military attack by Georgia into its break-away province South Ossetia, since 1992 a de facto independent entity.[18] [19] Russian armed forces responded with a counter-attack into South Ossetia, also advancing into provinces of Georgia outside South Ossetia. A preliminary cease-fire was arranged by the President-in-Office of the European Union, French President Nicolas Sarkozy, on August 12, and signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008.
The war involves the country of Georgia, the Russian Federation and the breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Just hours after Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili declared a cease-fire with South Ossetian separatist troops, Georgian military forces unleashed a barrage of shelling on the province's capital, Tskhinvali, late Thursday and early Friday. Georgia then proceeded to launch a massive military offensive in South Ossetia.[20][21] The Georgian government said the troops had been sent to end the shelling of Georgian civilians by South Ossetian secessionists.[22] In the following battle, the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, was damaged. Starting on the August 2 and increasing with the intensifying fighting, a stream of refugees from South Ossetia fled into Russian region of North Ossetia, reaching an estimated 30,000 of the 70,000 overall population.[23] More than 11,000 of them returned after the intervention of Russia in the war.[24] South Ossetian and Russian authorities alleged a civilian death toll of over 2,000 early in the conflict.[25] However, on August 13 Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch, while acknowledging that investigation was not yet complete, said that this figure was "suspicious" and "very doubtful", citing a Tshinvalli hospital report of 273 wounded and 44 dead.[26].
Russia responded the next day by large scale bombardment of Georgian military and civilian targets by sending troops and armor into South Ossetia, driving the Georgian troops out of Tskhinvali. The Russian air attacks on the Georgian city of Gori also hit civilian targets.[27] The president of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili claims that Russia is attempting to cause a regime change to depose the democraticly elected Georgian government due to Georgia's close relations with Western nations.[28] By August 18, about 100,000 ethnic Georgians have fled their homes in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Georgia proper due to the conflict,[29] while many of their homes were reportedly looted and destroyed by pro-Russian irregular forces. By August 17, the United Nations confirmed "massive looting" in Gori,[30] while South Ossetia acknowledged it is keeping more than 100 Georgian civilians hostage, including women and children.[31]
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin accused Georgia of committing "genocide"[32] while President Dmitry Medvedev stated that his country's goal was "to force the Georgian side to peace", and that he "must protect lives and the dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are."[32] The Georgian leader has also appealed to the world for help after accusing Russia of conducting "ethnic cleansing" in his country,[33][34] claiming that it had depopulated the entire South Ossetia region of its Georgian civilians and that almost all Georgian residents of Kodori Valley were expelled by the Abkhaz separatists with the aid of the Russian military. The Georgian side has also filed a lawsuit against Russia in the International Court of Justice, claiming Russia, through the separatist authorities in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, violated a convention meant to eliminate racism.[35] South Ossetian separatist leadership said it does "not intend" to let the Georgian civilians return to their homes.[36]
August 12, Georgia launched the application against actions of Russia in the International Court of Justice [37]. Orthorhombic ( talk) 21:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree, the introduction will need to be revised as we continue to have the benefit of hindsight. However:
"On August 2, 2008, conflict between Georgian and South Ossetian forces increased sharply, with the former claiming to be motivated by rocket attacks and the latter claiming to be responding to a heavy bombarbment of Tshinvallia."
Is this a fact? Can it be referenced please? It may be more accurate to state that both sides blame each other for starting the conflict, with ongoing minor hostilities dating back for several decades. According to one Russian report, the hostilities may have started initially with an argument that erupted during dinner, resulting with 15 Russian peacekeepers getting shot in the process. Clearly, these guys are not diplomats with pens as their weapons. :-) Here is the link in Russian.
http://www.expert.ru/articles/2008/08/13/kochetkov_photo/
USchick (
talk)
21:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The introduction should follow the rules of journalism and state undisputed facts. How the war started and who did what will continue to be debated throughout history. In the meantime, what are the facts that we can all agree on? Everyone's opinion here is welcome and valued. 1. This was an armed conflict that started in August of 2008. (Exact date seems to be in question and can be answered in a timeline of events section, unless it is undisputed that August 7 is the official date.) 2. The participants were Georgia on one side. SO, Abkhazia, and Russia on the other side. 3. Both sides blame eachother for starting the conflict. 4. President-in-Office of the European Union and President of France, Nicolas Sarkozy, brokered a cease-fire on August 12, that was signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008. 5. Tshinvalli was the location of the first major battle, with major destruction to non-military targets. Other battles and locations can be listed in a separate section. 6. Civillian refugees trying to get out of the way created a humanitarian crisis. 7. The world watched in horror as this seemingly local border dispute erupted into a nightmare. (This last part is my opinion, but something similar can be said to reflect the fact that the result was severe devastation and that no one else got involved with military action.)
Please contribute other facts or feel free to comment on the ones listed. Once we agree on the facts, let's put them into paragraph form, and viola! that's the introduction, followed by a timeline of events. :-) USchick ( talk) 05:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, taking on board as many people's suggestions as possible, may I suggest this as a rejigged version of the initial paragraph. If it is not able to satisfy both sides (people in perfect agreement don't go to war!), then at the very least it will hopefully satisfy neither side.
The 2008 South Ossetia war began around August 7 was a land, sea and air war fought between the Republic of Georgia on one side and the separatist regions, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and the Russian Federation, on the other, with the earliest battles being fought in and around the city of Tshinvalli. Both parties have blamed the other for starting the war.
The number of refugees from South Ossetia fleeing into Russia reached an estimated 30,000 of the 70,000 overall population. Meanwhile by 18th August, about 100,000 ethnic Georgians had fled their homes due to the conflict,[29] with property reportedly having been looted.
A preliminary ceasefire was signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008. The Russian military has announced a ten-day withdrawal from advance positions, while Georgian authorities have expressed discontent with the rate and extent of the pull-back, and with the continuing Russian presence in port of Poti.
Western nations have largely condemned the Russian actions, while Russia has accused the West of double standards in the light of recent Balkan politics and NATO expansion in Eastern Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orthorhombic ( talk • contribs) 15:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
coming from US ambassador to Russia, this should be worked into the introduction
The U.S. ambassador to Moscow, in a rare U.S. comment endorsing Russia's initial moves in Georgia, described the Kremlin's first military response as legitimate after Russian troops came under attack.
Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 12:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Good description from the article: "Georgian forces attacked South Ossetia, triggering a massive Russian reaction when its peacekeepers there came under fire." Can we use it without infringing on their copyright? Would someone like to take a stab at writing the introduction now, and the rest of us try to be nice about commenting on it? USchick ( talk) 15:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
As far as copyright, I think the rules are that one or two sentences are okay, even if taken verbatim.
The key statement quoted by Globe and Mail seems to only be present in the Russian language page of Kommersant "Мы видим, что российские войска вполне обоснованно ответили на нападение на миротворцев РФ в Южной Осетии." My translation would be "Russian forces responded in a reasonable fashion", not necessarily "legitimate". Too bad it's not clear if the interview was in Russian or English.
Reuters now reports the quote as "justified", saying "...ambassador to Moscow describes Kremlin's first military response as justified after Russian troops came under attack." (Reuters-Ynetnews ) Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 19:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Is it the opinion of the members that Globe and Mail is a reliable source? It's been over 24 hours and neither the Dept of State nor US embassy to Russia has raised any objections. It appears the GnM report can be now treated as a source. Full Russian text of Kommersant interview including quote of interest is still linked on US embassy web page. Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 14:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.crisisgroup.org/library/documents/europe/caucasus/195_russia_vs_georgia___the_fallout.pdf New report by the Crisis Group: a comprehensive history and analysis of the conflict. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 17:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Currently, the article claims that:
the phrasing is clearly intended to convey it as a fact, and does not specifically say who did the counting; however, two references for that senses are not as clear-cut. AP:
RIA Novosti:
So the numbers come from South Ossetian sources, and there is no consensus on how truthful they are. Note that even Russians still only confirm 133 deaths. Considering all this, perhaps it is worth rephrasing the paragraph? -- int19h ( talk) 19:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
We should wait til Southossetia clears its own definition of "Civilian". Elysander ( talk) 11:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Why do Putin supporters remove his name from the infobox and the rest of the article? Maybe Putin wants to work under cover? John McCain said something like this: I looked Putin in his eyes, and it said K G B... 213.50.111.114 ( talk) 21:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I propose the following introduction based on known facts and refraining from any statements that are not facts. If you would like to comment, please read the previous posts discussing what constitutes a fact and what needs to be included. The introduction needs to be followed with a timeline of events. All informed opinions are welcome and valued, please be objective in your comments. Ok, here it is, let the (new) battle begin....
The 2008 South Ossetia War is a military conflict that started on August 7, in the South Caucasus region when Georgian forces attacked the city of Tskhinvali, triggering a massive reaction from Russia when its peacekeepers located there came under fire. Russian troops had military support from South Ossetia, and Abkhazia, two de-facto independent regions located within the country of Georgia. Both sides blamed each other for provoking the use of force and continued to use heavy military action in spite of repeated cease-fire claims.
The first battle took place in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, and resulted in major casualties as well as substantial damage to non-military targets. Civilian refugees attempting to flee from the conflict were not initially allowed safe passage out of the war zone, resulting in a humanitarian crisis. Major battles took place in South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and spread to Tbillisi, the Capital of Georgia, with Russian troops occupying the affected territory.
President-in-Office of the European Union, Nicolas Sarkozy, brokered a cease-fire on August 12 that was signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008. Both sides agreed to a six-point peace plan and to end the military hostilities. USchick ( talk) 22:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
A rather interesting piece of data from CERN: http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/asp/prod_free.asp?pid=1246 Might come in handy as a reference in Damages/Humanitarian Impact sections. From the page:
An estimated total of 438 buildings within the mapped extent of Tskhinvali have been classified either as destroyed or severely damaged. An important preliminary finding of this satellite damage analysis is the observed heavy concentration of building damages within clearly defined residential areas.
Gleb ( talk) 01:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
I am not trying to make a point. The assessment contains factual data which can be incorporated into the second paragraph of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war#South_Ossetians, which currently references anecdotal sources. Something like:
According to a preliminary satellite damage assessment of Tskinvali carried out by United Nations UNOSAT program, "[a]n estimated total of 438 buildings . . . have been classified either as destroyed or severely damaged" with "observed heavy concentration of building damages within clearly defined residential areas".
Gleb ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Could someone please update occupation of Gori and raid on Poti? Thanks! — Nightstallion 09:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
The Economist in its August 16th print issue, on p. 11 (see [14] online) writes: "Russia has made perfunctory attempts to justify the invasion. It claimed that it was defending Russian citizens. This excuse, as Sweden’s foreign minister tartly noted, recalled Hitler’s justifications of Nazi invasions." User:Mateat 2:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
The Economist has such a stellar reputation of predicting Russian military actions, that it's managed to call every Russian military conflict dead wrong. Just read their editorials on Russia losing the Second Chechen Wars. Or their editorials on the US winning in Iraq. Or the one about Ukraine going to war with Russia. How can any military professional take them seriously? Militarily, they're a joke, and this is a war, ergo military, article. The Economist is a respectable source in ECONOMY, not in military history, where they, quite frankly, get nearly everything wrong. Also, comparisons are irrelevant. I can easily write up an article comparing Saakashvili to Stalin, and anyone, with enough imagination, can compare Bush and/or Putin to Stalin as well. Stalin's so popular these days, I think there has to be a wikipedia article about him somewhere. Honorable Wikipedia editors, Mateat and Narking, you can help out the Stalin Article, and create the list of the people he's been compared to, because for this article, it's irrelevant! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.166.129.39 ( talk) 07:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Following news was publshed by interfax on August 5th , 2008 - and then obviously deleted in its newsarchive after August 11th. The news according google cache: http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:hP3H7LWp00MJ:www.interfax.com/3/416284/news.aspx+http://www.interfax.com/3/416284/news.aspx&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=de
11:06 GMT, Aug 05, 2008 Volunteers arriving in South Ossetia - president's envoy MOSCOW. Aug 5 (Interfax) - Volunteers are arriving in South Ossetia to offer help in the event of Georgian aggression, Dmitry Medoyev, a South Ossetian presidential envoy, has said. "Volunteers are arriving already, primarily from North Ossetia. Ossetians are one nation and one culture," Medoyev said at a news conference in Moscow on Tuesday. Russian regions in the North Caucasus, and Russian Cossacks have demonstrated readiness to support South Ossetia, he said. "We have received offers of help from the North Caucasus and from the Cossacks in southern Russia," Medoyev said. "But Tskhinvali will count on its own forces in the first instance. We have armed forces of our own," he said. A guerilla war will begin in the event of Georgian aggression against South Ossetia, and South Ossetia will launch a railway warfare against Georgia, Medoyev said. "We will watch how Georgia will manage to fulfill its oil transit obligations then," said Medoyev.
Hmmm... in the early days of the Russia-Georgia war, there were several reports at gazeta.ru and lenta.ru about the big losses suffered by the Russians between Tchinvali and Dzhava. They were then deleted within a few hours. The FSB guys act quickly... -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 08:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Here's the
original article in Russian. The news archive database of interfax.com seems to be much smaller. --
Illythr (
talk)
12:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
More of this story is at http://www.ogj.com/search/results.cfm?si=OGJ&collection=ogj&keywords=Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan&x=17&y=11 the oil and gas journal. (Hypnosadist) 13:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
User:Advokat has just removed the UN official's report of massive looting in Georgian settlements as an "unconfirmed information with a link to a non-existing page". This is a lie. http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LH617289.htm the page is accessible and the article says:
"A United Nations aid convoy managed to enter Gori on Sunday, the first time U.N. organisations have reached the Georgian town since fighting started last week, and found signs of "massive looting". -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 08:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Ive been looking around, and apparently Russian forces have taken several United States Humvees that were at docks for transport. Can anyone find more sources for this? Does this merit inclusion?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-seizes-us-vehicles-902432.html Dtheweather9 ( talk) 21:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
There are rumors of hundreds of Russian dead. My question is how can Russia even hide those hundreds of dead? Do they release the names of the dead or do they just give numbers? I understand why they'd want to hide the dead if they really have ~500 dead, but the truth would finally come out. I think that the Georgians just mistaked the Russians with South Ossetians when they were killing them. Especially that the Ossetians aren't releasing any combatant deaths and only give out numbers like 2000 civilians. The Russians and Ossetians have the same equipment and both looked "rag-tag" I wouldn't be able to tell the difference at first glance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 09:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Should we have new articles about South Ossetia buffer zone and Abkhazia buffer zone since these two areas are new reality on the ground? See: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/2008820143346769471.html 212.69.4.242 ( talk) 19:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
The buffer zones were defined in 1999 and 1992 agreements, does WP have articles on these agreements? That would probably be more important than an article on the zones themselves, or maps of such zones. Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 16:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
The present infobox is rather peculiar - another good night's sleep for Russia's No. 1 - Vladimir Putin. According to WP consensus (huh...) Putin has nothing to do with this war... Why, btw, are the Russians so anxious of cleaning the article from his name? I thought Putin was the role model for contemporary Russians. What Putin does is always right. Nothing to be ashamed of. Or is it? 213.50.111.114 ( talk) 21:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
A solitary user has been changing the dating scheme to 23 August 2008. This is contrary to Wikipedia custom and guidance, and disruptive on this article, where we have more important things to do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:39, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
For the record, the section referred to has half-a-dozen editors. Another editor dissented on the (accurate) ground that we have too many American dates to convert; another supported on the sole ground that autoformating will only work with British dates. This is not true; and we're not autoformatting now anyway. In short, not consensus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Policies and guidelines express standards that have community consensus. Policies are considered a standard that all editors should follow, whereas guidelines are more advisory in nature. Both need to be approached with common sense: adhere to the spirit rather than the letter of the rules, and be prepared to ignore the rules on the rare occasions when they conflict with the goal of improving the encyclopedia. Those who edit in good faith, are civil, seek consensus, and work towards the goal of creating a great encyclopedia should find a welcoming environment.
I heard an expert (dont remember his name) on the BBC who said that the war could have been avoided, should the EU just have deployed some peacekeepers in the two breakaway republics. According to the expert, Russia would not likely break through EU peacekeepers' line. I dont think the Russians would care so much about breaking through an EU peackeeping line. Anyway, I wonder if such a mission has ever been planned by the EU (or Nato) and possible Russian reaction to prevent such a mission to be deployed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.121.84.241 ( talk) 12:27, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
There is talk about using OSCE peacekeepers in the buffer zones, as Sarkozy and Medvedev had discussed (AlJazeera) but it's hard to find amongst all the opinion articles... Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 16:28, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Should the Status section now ready "Russia Occupation of Northern Georgia" rather than "Ceasefire in effect" as both the Georgians and the EU/USA (who brokered the peace deal) say that Russia is in breach of the cease fire agreement. MattUK ( talk) 13:01, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
The views of Russia, that it is allowed to invade sovergin nations when it wants to, that wouldnt be NPOV, according to the text of the cease fire, Russia is in breach of the deal, and is according to international law an occupying force in Georgia, so it's not POV, it is FACT! MattUK ( talk) 14:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
We need an article and map regarding the Russian buffer zones in Georgia. I'm really interested to see how large they are. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 15:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Regarding all talk of "occupation" and peacekeeper status, OSCE monitors are beginning to arrive (OSCE_Arriving), any and all POV comments should be held off until they make statements. Opinions on compliance with the six-point peace plan are only opinions, they will only become fact if ICJ rules on it. Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 15:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can tell the "buffer zones" you refer to were created in four-party talks in 1999, and will be manned in the near future fully by OSCE personnel, so calling them "Russian" is a POV position. perhaps "Buffer zones around SO and Abkhazia", or just "Buffer zones in Georgia" would be NPOV Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 18:25, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
This article
It appears the sole reference for the whole first paragraph has been mangled. It now links to "BBC, US warship reaches Georgian port, 24.08.2008", can anyone restore? Anatoly.bourov ( talk) 17:51, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
“ | Russia's four-day war with Georgia erupted after Tbilisi tried to retake South Ossetia - which broke away in 1992 and was supported by Moscow - in a surprise offensive on 7 August. The offensive followed a series of clashes between Georgian and South Ossetian forces. | ” |
This has already been discussed in the Talk page at considerable length. The BBC does say "surprise", however the overwhelming majority of reliable media sources do not use such language. There was no Georgian "attack" from out of the bright blue sky of peace and harmony to those who followed the background to this conflict. There were a serious of provocations and spiralling tensions. Again, we've been over this before. If there is going to be any assignment to either Russia or Georgia as the instigator, neutrality demands that the counterargument be included as well. It follows that this cannot be covered off in a single clause like "the war began with a surprise attack by Georgia". One could easily say the war began with a Russian invasion on September 8, with the Georgian move analogous to the Georgian moves that retook the Gorge and Batumi. Those events arguably didn't start "wars". Bdell555 ( talk) 18:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
It's not clear that such summaries of opinion pieces add much to the article. But do they add anything at all to the timeline, where I found it? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
A lot of US aligned Eastern European countries, commonly considered part of the "New Europe", were neutral: the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia, (and a lot without an official position: Hungary, Slovenia, Republic of Macedonia, Albania). So the "International reactions" section presents an inaccurate view. Baltaci ( talk) 19:53, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the last para of the "media bias" section should be deleted. That's simply because wire story titles change all the time. This is not news. Newspapers can title wire stories whatever they want and often change them, other times they don't change them while the wire service does. The title often changes throughout the day as well. I don't see how this relates to media bias. Bdell555 ( talk) 21:21, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
On the 23 August, a story was published on Reuters entitled "Georgian forces back in control of strategic road" by Margarita Antidze [8], various news websites had republished it including: Times of Malta, Washington Post, ReliefWeb, Khaleej Times, Economic Times, Canada.com, elEconomista.es, Calgary Herald, The Gazette (Montreal), and MorungExpress. However, during the day, the story had been changed, on the Reuters website, and was later entitled "Russian forces still in Georgia" by Niko Mchedlishvili. [9] Whereas most news website had kept the original story, the Washington post and Yahoo news stories had been changed as had Reuters'. Gareth Jones had signed the initial version, "Russia troops still in Georgia after pullout" [10]. Between 3:15-6:19 am GMT the article was edited and signed Gareth Jones again. [11]. 6:57-8:22 am GMT the article is replaced and now entitled "Georgia back in control of strategic road" by Margarita Antidze [12], which is then edited before 9:27 GMT [8]. It is later replaced yet again to end up as "Russian forces still in Georgia" by Niko Mchedlishvili [9]