![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
This is for "South Ossetia" section on Wikipedia:
On August 8, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated: "Georgia’s actions have led to human losses, including among Russian peacekeepers... Georgian peacekeepers were opening fire at Russian peacekeepers with whom they were supposed to work together in... maintaining peace in the region. Civilians, women, children and old people are dying today in South Ossetia, and the majority of them are citizens of the Russian Federation".[1]
On August 8, the International Red Cross urged the combatants to make a humanitarian corridor to evacuate the wounded and civilians from Tskhinvali.[2][3]According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali's main city hospital was non-functional, and ambulances could not reach the wounded, while Georgia continued to bomb the hospital. Twenty-two wounded remained in the building, which reportedly had only two storeys left.[4]International Red Cross spokeswoman Anna Nelson said it had received reports that hospitals in Tskhinvali were "overflowing" with casualties.[5]According to Russia Today, more than 150 people were trapped under the rubble of the city hospital.[6] Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin alleged that Georgia was responsible for a "complete genocide."[7]
The UN refugee agency, UNHCR, said that thousands of refugees left South Ossetia, mostly for North Ossetia in Russia within the first days of the conflict.[8] About 140 buses, carrying thousands of refugees, had already arrived in North Ossetia on Friday evening, August 8, according to Reuters.[9]
Human Rights Watch visited a camp for the displaced in the village of Alagir and interviewed more than a dozen people, including those from Tskhinvali and neighboring villages. Those from the city reported spending more than three days in the basements of their houses, unable to come out because of the incessant shelling. Residents of Satikhar village said that after the village came under heavy artillery fire on the night of August 7, all women, children and elderly (more than 100 people) started fleeing their homes. Most of them spent the next two days hiding in the woods and then trying to make their way toward the Russian border. Later, the Russian military in the village of Ger helped in the displaced civilians' transport to North Ossetia.[10]
Eduard Kokoity stated from South Ossetia that the death toll has risen to 1,400 in South Ossetia.[11] Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin on August 9 upon his return from Beijing to Vladikavkaz claimed that "tens of people killed, hundreds wounded" and 34,000 refugees had crossed the Russian border.[12]The United Nations refugee agency said that between 10,000 and 20,000 people have been displaced within Georgia.[13]According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali was lying in ruins, and more than ten border villages were burnt to the ground as of August 9.[14][15]According to western media who arrived in the city later, however, "[s]everal residential areas seemed to have little damage" and "[r]eporters witnessed more than a dozen fires in what appeared to be deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods and saw evidence of looting in those areas.[16] According to Chicago Tribune, theater and typesetting school were heavily damaged or destroyed.[17]
The fighting interrupted electricity and telephone service in Tskhinvali, and some inhabitants sheltered in basements[18] with no access to water or medicines.[19] Human Rights Watch interviewed an Ossetian man who noted that Ossetians had lost property "in Tskhinvali and other places".[20]
Russian media reported on August 9 that several journalists were hiding in the basements, as they appealed to world society for a peace corridor to let them out of Tskhinvali.[21][22]
At a makeshift hospital camp in Alagir on August 9, Prime Minister Putin was told that Georgian troops had set fire to a house with several young women inside. "They were rounded up like cattle, shut into the house, and set on fire. In another place, we saw a tank run over an old woman who was running away with two children. We saw how they slashed up an 18-month child," a refugee said.[23] Russian reports cited the representative of South Ossetia administration who asserted that Georgian troops opened an irrigation canal to flood the basements of Tskhinvali in order to prevent people from hiding in the basements of the buildings during bombings.[24] and that Georgian tanks ran people down and that soldiers took away women.[25]
Human Rights Watch entered Tskhinvali on August 13 and reported that it saw numerous apartment buildings and houses damaged by shelling. It said some of them had been hit by "inherently indiscriminate" weapons that should not be used in areas populated by civilians, such as rockets most likely fired from Grad launchers. It said there was evidence of firing being directed into locations where civilians frequently choose as a place of shelter, such as basements. Human Rights Watch talked to a teacher at the local kindergarten, who said: "They were shooting from Grad rocket launchers, paying no attention to civilians living in these houses. We went deaf from the shelling. They simply wanted to wipe us off the face of the earth." The woman showed Human Rights Watch researchers the kindergarten building hit by the Grad rockets, as well as fragments of the rocket itself. [26]
What we got here?
Also, there's no mention(!) of the plight Georgians in Abkhazia. UNHCR via Reuters Reliefweb:
More than 700 frightened residents of the remote Khodori Valley in Georgia's breakaway Abkhazia region have been escorted to safety in a two-day operation mounted by UN refugee agency staff. ( UNHCR secures safe passage for Georgians fearing further fighting)
Why are they "frightened" and need to be evacuated from the territory controlled by "peacekeepers", where the Georgian army did not attack so there's no "revenge"?
By the same article: Right now there are 118,000 refugees, including 15,000 Georgians from SO (practically all of the Georgian population there) and 73,000 Georgians from "Georgia proper" (maybe including Abkhazia in the report), mostly Gori.
Of ~118,000 refugees, only 1/4 are Ossetians. The rest are Georgians. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, what remains should be cleaned up, becuase it' badly written and mostly look like just copy-pasted (and doesn't matter if's in citation marks, it should be edited, it's supposedly encyclopedia and not a blog entry or a press article - if anyone wants to read more, they can click the link rwead in the source).
For example, the apparant copypasta of:
Human Rights Watch talked to a teacher at the local kindergarten, who said: "They were shooting from Grad rocket launchers, paying no attention to civilians living in these houses. We went deaf from the shelling. They simply wanted to wipe us off the face of the earth." The woman showed Human Rights Watch researchers the kindergarten building hit by the Grad rockets, as well as fragments of the rocket itself.
Should instad be:
HRW researchers found a kindergarten building hit by the Grad rockets, as well as fragments of the rocket itself.
If I'm back and nobody cleaned up this, I'll do it myself. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
If there was such a section one could fill it with reports from CNN, who do nothing but ignore the Russians and totally side with the Georgian President, who for the theatre of world media is playing the wounded aggressor. luckluckluck —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luckluckluck ( talk • contribs) 08:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
There's no such section, but should be (about the stuff which was presented as facts and provided as a justification for the invasion, but later turned out to be untrue). For example, we take the lie of:
According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali's main city hospital was non-functional, and ambulances could not reach the wounded, while Georgia continued to bomb the hospital. Twenty-two wounded remained in the building, which reportedly had only two storeys left.[4]
and the lie of:
According to Russia Today, more than 150 people were trapped under the rubble of the city hospital.[6]
and make it:
Instead, Wikipedia is promoting disproved lies as "humanitarian impact". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Captain and his bloody hungry beast - How much people you need bleeding and dying to call in "humanitarian impact"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.102.43.111 ( talk) 13:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
If there is to be a section of this kind, I think ” Propaganda” is too wide a term. I propose ” Information warfare” instead, or possibly ” Disinformation”, or ”Alleged disinformation”, if you like.-- gnirre ( talk) 21:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
OK.
I didn't even chceck the Georgia section, but I guess it may has similar problems.(?) "Buses" link was dead. (And yes, I check the links and the content - everyone editing should.) -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:52, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
And yeah, Georgia proper reports also should be cleared of media sensationalism and the possibly rumour-type stories of panicky refugees (which may be or may not be confirmed later) and only post the preliminarily confirmed reports (of which some might also be corrected later). For example, the Cluster bombing of Gori. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 15:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
"Since Georgian and Russian forces use identical Soviet-era weapons systems including Grad rockets, HRW couldn't definitely attribute specific battle damage to a particular belligerent" What a bunch of crap. Why would Russian bomb South Ossetians? They are our friends. They are on our side. Its OBVIOUS that this was the work of the Georgians.-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 17:46, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Besides, there're many blogs with photo/video of Georgian atrocities, as well as Russian media is filled with them. So both Russian and HRW/US claims should be put in the same section, with 'alleged' word preceding them. Once any of those gets confirmed by diffrent media source, some can be ruled as 'trustworthy' and some as 'information warfare'. As for Georgians, their media is filled with sick statements too. Their claims of Roki tunnel destruction, Russian tanks assaulting Tbilisi, etc. etc. were all later declared untrue. 78.29.67.134 ( talk) 18:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Since Georgian and Russian forces use identical Soviet-era weapons systems including main battle tanks, Grad multiple-launch rockets, BMP infantry fighting vehicles and tube artillery, Human Rights Watch cannot definitely attribute specific battle damage to a particular belligerent, but witness accounts and the timing of the damage would point to Georgian fire accounting for much of the damage described below.
Anything else? And didn't Russia bomb the Russian citiziens in Grozny - a much larger city on a much larger scale, and much longer too (to say least)? What's so supposedly different between the Russian army in Russia (Grozny) and the Russian army in Georgia (Tskhinvali) to make it even a littlest bit incredible? Russia literally(!) leveled much of a city of Grozny, but couldn't even damage a town of Tskhinvali? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Strike-through text
Considering that the US held military operations with Georgia just before this, that the US wants to put ABM's in Georgia, President Bush's various pronouncements, McCains pronouncements and that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili says "he talks to McCain, a personal friend, several times a day," it seems there needs to be such a section. (According to Dan Eggan and Robert Barnes, McCain's Focus on Georgia Raises Question of Propriety, Washington Post, Friday, August 15, 2008, A16. McCain also announced this week that two of his closest allies, Sens. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) and Joseph I. Lieberman (I-Conn.), would travel to Georgia's capital of Tbilisi on his behalf, after a similar journey by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice....The extent of McCain's involvement in the military conflict in Georgia appears remarkable among presidential candidates, who traditionally have kept some distance from unfolding crises out of deference to whoever is occupying the White House. Carol Moore 15:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
It should be noted that the children began to be evacuated on the 2nd; and, was over by the 5th. Prior to a "Georgian aggression".
[5] [6] [7] PlanetCeres ( talk) 15:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Specifically the sentence within the introduction,
refers to it happening afterwards. When a large part happened before. PlanetCeres ( talk) 15:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
It was on the 8th when the Russians invaded that it became an international problem! Bdell555 ( talk) 16:35, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
An estimated 24,000 to 30,000 out of the 70,000 South Ossetian population fled into North Ossetia (in Russia), some of them before the intense fighting broke out.
-- CopperKettle ( talk) 16:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
btw if i remember right then also there were somekind evacuation of Georgian civilians from SO somewhere between August 1-7 and it was speculated that it is pretty certain indicator for war that both sides are evacuating their people -- Zache ( talk) 17:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
-- CopperKettle ( talk) 17:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)Starting on the 2nd of August and increasing with the intensifying fighting, a stream of refugees from South Ossetia fled into Russian region of North Ossetia, reaching an estimated 24 000 to 30 000 of the 70 000 overal population.
The Roki tunnel between Georgia's South Ossetia and Russia has been a source of dispute between Russia and Georgia since the 1990s. Just two days (!) before the war erupted, US State Department spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos said that Washington would like to see "joint Georgian-Russian monitoring of the Roki tunnel, to stem the flow of illicit arms, ammunition and armed groups into the region." [8]. This is important enough to be mentioned in the article, methinks.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 18:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The information about Kosovo and it's relation to this conflict is excessive. For example, it is the largest subheading in the background section, but gives very little information about South Ossetia; although, it gives extremely repetitive information (mostly pulling from quotations) about why Russia cites the situation as a precedent for sending their own troops into the breakaway provinces of Georgia and Georgia proper. Some of these quotations are not cited well and/or are wholly unnecessary to this article: "An UN Security Council diplomat said "Strategically, the Russians have been sending signals that they really wanted to flex their muscles, and they’re upset about Kosovo."" Who is this Security Council diplomat? What country are they from? Does this information have anything to do with Georgia? And if everything is legitimate then (grammar) some should change "An" to an "A". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Menrunningpast ( talk • contribs) 17:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I offer for the possible improvement of this article the following from the Sunday Times (in the UK) which offers some interesting background regarding the "behind the scenes" issues leading up to the conflict in South Ossetia - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4545980.ece
doktorb words deeds 19:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Novaya Gazeta tells of this incident thus:The US State Department’s internal timeline of the crisis pinpoints the explosion on August 1 of two roadside bombs, believed to have been planted by South Ossetian separatists sympathetic to Russia, as a decisive moment. Five Georgian policemen were injured, one severely.
Best regards, -- CopperKettle ( talk) 21:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)..This war was brewing up for a long time, but one incident served as a formal pretext. On the 31th of July, a Georgian police car was blasted using a self-made remotely controlled device on a detour road near the Eredvi village to the east of Tskhinvali. Russian peacekeepers had time to carry out an investigation and found that two 122 mm Russian-type howitzer shells were used.
The policemen's Toyota was totally wrecked, and five Geogrians were injured. Just at the same spot, but on the 4th of July that year, similar explosive was used to destroy a car that carried the head of the provisional pro-Georgian administration of South Ossetia Dmitry Sanakoyev. After the blast the car was fired upon, but Sanakoyev came out unscathed though his bodyguards were wounded. Sanakoyev had been a minister of defence in the separatist government of South Ossetia, but later broke up from Kokoyti and passed to the Georgian side with a group of his Ossetian militant followers. Kokoyti and his supporters consider Sanakoev a traitor.
On the 1st of August the Georgians striked back and fired at Ossetian positions, for the first time using long-range big-caliber rifles. The separatists didn't expect such an attack and suffered noticeable losses, replying with a mortar fire directed at Georgian villages, and this fact was noted by the Russian peacekeepers. In the following days the Ossetians started an active provocation campaign, apparently aiming to bring on the full-blown conflict and draw in the Russians, and in this they funally succeded. ..
..etc. -- CopperKettle ( talk)Whatever the final death toll, few dispute that the city suffered destruction and that civilians were hardest hit. Nor is there any doubting Albina Shanazarov’s tragic fate. A 13-year-old girl, she sought to flee the city with her mother and three sisters...
Only stupid people take everything published in British, or for that matter any country's newspapers, as true. I remember, in the run up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, MI6 had Czech Intelligence place a fabricated article about Iraqi WMD in their newspapers, so that it could be picked up by British newspapers and republished, so as to add materially to the fiction. And that is just one example of how we are daily fed fiction from a rich tapestry of lies. 192.190.108.28 ( talk) 01:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
May I ask why exactly pictures that I uploaded under Creative Commons Attribution by Arkady Babchenko were deleted? I uploaded a bunch of them, and asked the author (Arkady Babchenko) personally if it was alright to use them. Direct quote: "Огромная просьба, когда будете выкладывать их где-либо в сети, упоминайте не только авторство Аркадия Бабченко, но и то, что они принадлежат Альманаху «Искусство Войны» ( http://www.navoine.ru)." Translation: "if you post these pictures somewhere else, please note the author, Arkady Babchenko, and navoine.ru".
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=610#610
-- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 19:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The georgian armed forces suffered losses about 133 servicemen. That was confirmed on Sunday 17th august 2008 by georgian soldiers during an interview at a military base —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL ( talk • contribs) 20:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I have edited rather drastically. My view continues to be that neither the Russian nor the Georgian (nor the American) Government is a reliable source, and we can leave out claims which are solely reprinting their various spokebeings. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
This is unacceptable. The Russian Government cannot confirm anything; nor can the Georgian Government: they are the interested parties, and we are not here to reprint their public statements.. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
In brief, don't cite people who "are apt to misinform". There is no good reason for doing so, unless better citations are not available; and even then there's a sound case for silence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The most directly relevant policy statement can be found at WP:PRIMARY. The publications of an interested party to a dispute or issue are generally regarded as primary sources. As such, they are not to be used except as descriptions of the various positions. If Russia says that the war began with A and Georgia says it began with B, then NPOV allows and encourages the article to recount those positions as positions. It does not allow the article to leave matters there if there are any secondary sources that are reasonably independent of the parties and that can provide context. Robert A.West ( Talk) 02:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
The article has many date references, some in the format of ex. August 17 or August 17, 2008, but there is no consistency in the format. Also, dates are being internally linked i.e August 17, 2008 and is it really necessary to do so? There are so many blue links that I feel the reader gets so mind boggled that he/she won't notice links that might enhance their understanding of the crisis.
So can we:
I don't mind going through the article and reformating to whatever we can come to an agreement on. «Javier»| Talk 00:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I understand there is a lot of editing on this page and it is difficult to keep track of all the edits, but the introduction is really hard to read for a native speaker without wincing, it seems to have been edited by many of the locals with their limited knowledge of English grammar. Does a native speaker have the time to revise at least the first 4 paragraphs? -- Lgriot ( talk) 06:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Not only the introduction; and the problem is not only non-native speakers. A group of editors might be able to meet separately to come up with a well written introduction, but I’m not sure how this would be done. Regardless, it seems there is way too much hostility over content to try to improve the writing -- charges of propaganda would follow. Right now it looks like this article will be written by those with the most time and stamina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adjpro ( talk • contribs) 15:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed a line which said there were two polls for independence in 1992, which showed the will of the people wanted indepence. The article which is quoted for this is *before* the second poll (and so the sentence is not backed up by the article) and the first poll was not internationally recongized - not mentioning this is misleading. (Speaking purely personally, a 98% vote for anything smacks of vote rigging.) Toby Douglass ( talk) 07:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=232637655&oldid=232610559
A huge block of copypasted text.
Someone PLZ lock it from the new and unexperienced editors. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me please, but recently I started a new section here, advising that we need to add info about that Georgia attacked it all first, about that it attacks Russian peacemakers base and that we need to add "USA interest" section to Russia interest, Osethias interest and so on. Now I can't see any tracks of these my text. It is not even in a "history". How's that?-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
WRITE (!!!!)
What the hell? Som guys put links alone, destroying references section. Others write things like "NY Times" (instead of The New York Times). As I said above, admins should protect this page from new users. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Use aany of this elsewhere if you want and if notable.
Remove an item from this list if used. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This article contains a
list of miscellaneous information. (August 2008) |
The general staff in Moscow stated on the 16th,, "There is a presence of our armed forces near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it," "They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever." it said. [43] [44]
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
An interesting article today from the McClatchy newspapers, a US newspaper chain. | Tour of Tskhinvali undercuts Russian version of fighting. I suspect that it ought to be discussed here on the Talk page before inserting anything into the contentious article based on this source. N2e ( talk) 11:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
"On August 16, Russia put this number at over 10,000 refugees." Citied article says about present number, not total. So, this formulating is not correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.42.63.113 ( talk) 14:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Reading from a paper, Barak Obama issues his first statement about the current crisis. The video is a (possibly partisan) comparison between the two main contenders in the upcomming U.S. presidential election. (Youtube video Obama/McCain) -- Hapsala ( talk) 15:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
It may be helpful: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3571263,00.html Vadimkaa ( talk) 15:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=prev&oldid=232701715
Definitely not a hearsay. Perhaps a source with a "wrong" date for Igny ?? Elysander ( talk) 17:12, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
If you want to know the story of this war, see this Guardian article. Bdell555 ( talk) 01:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The information about Kosovo and it's relation to this conflict is excessive. For example, it is the largest subheading in the background section, but gives very little information about South Ossetia; although, it gives extremely repetitive information (mostly pulling from quotations) about why Russia cites the situation as a precedent for sending their own troops into the breakaway provinces of Georgia and Georgia proper. Some of these quotations are not cited well and/or are wholly unnecessary to this article: "An UN Security Council diplomat said "Strategically, the Russians have been sending signals that they really wanted to flex their muscles, and they’re upset about Kosovo."" Who is this Security Council diplomat? What country are they from? Does this information have anything to do with Georgia? And if everything is legitimate then (grammar) some should change "An" to an "A". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Menrunningpast ( talk • contribs) 17:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Kosovo text needs to go, as does the reference to NATO. Background for the conflict should not also include speculation as to why the conflict began. IMO this should be a seperate section for now as the conflict is ongoing. History can be linked to South Ossetia and Georgia Wiki, as it is. Backround should involve the key players: Georgia, Russia and South Ossetia and historically documented events as well as those in 2008 which lead up to the war. Additionally there are no background/historical citations of appeals to international organizations to become involved in the conflict or this being blocked. I find this odd as I know Georgia has made appeals for international peacekeepers in the conflict areas. 70.193.42.221 ( talk) 03:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
If Kosovo text is here, why not adding
Manchukuo as a comparison as well?--
Kittyhawk2 (
talk)
15:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I offer for the possible improvement of this article the following from the Sunday Times (in the UK) which offers some interesting background regarding the "behind the scenes" issues leading up to the conflict in South Ossetia - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4545980.ece
doktorb words deeds 19:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Novaya Gazeta tells of this incident thus:The US State Department’s internal timeline of the crisis pinpoints the explosion on August 1 of two roadside bombs, believed to have been planted by South Ossetian separatists sympathetic to Russia, as a decisive moment. Five Georgian policemen were injured, one severely.
Best regards, -- CopperKettle ( talk) 21:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)..This war was brewing up for a long time, but one incident served as a formal pretext. On the 31th of July, a Georgian police car was blasted using a self-made remotely controlled device on a detour road near the Eredvi village to the east of Tskhinvali. Russian peacekeepers had time to carry out an investigation and found that two 122 mm Russian-type howitzer shells were used. The policemen's Toyota was totally wrecked, and five Geogrians were injured. Just at the same spot, but on the 4th of July that year, similar explosive was used to destroy a car that carried the head of the provisional pro-Georgian administration of South Ossetia Dmitry Sanakoyev. After the blast the car was fired upon, but Sanakoyev came out unscathed though his bodyguards were wounded. Sanakoyev had been a minister of defence in the separatist government of South Ossetia, but later broke up from Kokoyti and passed to the Georgian side with a group of his Ossetian militant followers. Kokoyti and his supporters consider Sanakoev a traitor. On the 1st of August the Georgians striked back and fired at Ossetian positions, for the first time using long-range big-caliber rifles. The separatists didn't expect such an attack and suffered noticeable losses, replying with a mortar fire directed at Georgian villages, and this fact was noted by the Russian peacekeepers. In the following days the Ossetians started an active provocation campaign, apparently aiming to bring on the full-blown conflict and draw in the Russians, and in this they funally succeded. ..
..etc. -- CopperKettle ( talk)Whatever the final death toll, few dispute that the city suffered destruction and that civilians were hardest hit. Nor is there any doubting Albina Shanazarov’s tragic fate. A 13-year-old girl, she sought to flee the city with her mother and three sisters...
Only stupid people take everything published in British, or for that matter any country's newspapers, as true. I remember, in the run up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, MI6 had Czech Intelligence place a fabricated article about Iraqi WMD in their newspapers, so that it could be picked up by British newspapers and republished, so as to add materially to the fiction. And that is just one example of how we are daily fed fiction from a rich tapestry of lies. 192.190.108.28 ( talk) 01:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Also the incidents of August 1st are referred to in a BBC article: "The separatist government in the breakaway province of South Ossetia has accused Georgia of killing six people and injuring seven in an attack. It quoted hospital sources as saying five civilians and a peacekeeper from the Russian province of North Ossetia were killed...
Georgia's interior ministry said that Georgian checkpoints had come under fire first and troops had responded. Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili also reported that South Ossetian forces had blown up a Georgian police car with a mine earlier on Friday, injuring six policemen. " [10] -- Tananka ( talk) 01:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
May I ask why exactly pictures that I uploaded under Creative Commons Attribution by Arkady Babchenko were deleted? I uploaded a bunch of them, and asked the author (Arkady Babchenko) personally if it was alright to use them. Direct quote: "Огромная просьба, когда будете выкладывать их где-либо в сети, упоминайте не только авторство Аркадия Бабченко, но и то, что они принадлежат Альманаху «Искусство Войны» ( http://www.navoine.ru)." Translation: "if you post these pictures somewhere else, please note the author, Arkady Babchenko, and navoine.ru".
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=610#610
-- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 19:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The georgian armed forces suffered losses about 133 servicemen. That was confirmed on Sunday 17th august 2008 by georgian soldiers during an interview at a military base —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL ( talk • contribs) 20:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I have edited rather drastically. My view continues to be that neither the Russian nor the Georgian (nor the American) Government is a reliable source, and we can leave out claims which are solely reprinting their various spokebeings. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
This is unacceptable. The Russian Government cannot confirm anything; nor can the Georgian Government: they are the interested parties, and we are not here to reprint their public statements.. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
In brief, don't cite people who "are apt to misinform". There is no good reason for doing so, unless better citations are not available; and even then there's a sound case for silence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The most directly relevant policy statement can be found at WP:PRIMARY. The publications of an interested party to a dispute or issue are generally regarded as primary sources. As such, they are not to be used except as descriptions of the various positions. If Russia says that the war began with A and Georgia says it began with B, then NPOV allows and encourages the article to recount those positions as positions. It does not allow the article to leave matters there if there are any secondary sources that are reasonably independent of the parties and that can provide context. Robert A.West ( Talk) 02:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Additional input, improvement, involvement, etc. at New Cold War would be helpful, and this seems like an obvious place to find interested parties... user:j (aka justen) 22:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The article has many date references, some in the format of ex. August 17 or August 17, 2008, but there is no consistency in the format. Also, dates are being internally linked i.e August 17, 2008 and is it really necessary to do so? There are so many blue links that I feel the reader gets so mind boggled that he/she won't notice links that might enhance their understanding of the crisis.
So can we:
I don't mind going through the article and reformating to whatever we can come to an agreement on. «Javier»| Talk 00:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I understand there is a lot of editing on this page and it is difficult to keep track of all the edits, but the introduction is really hard to read for a native speaker without wincing, it seems to have been edited by many of the locals with their limited knowledge of English grammar. Does a native speaker have the time to revise at least the first 4 paragraphs? -- Lgriot ( talk) 06:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Not only the introduction; and the problem is not only non-native speakers. A group of editors might be able to meet separately to come up with a well written introduction, but I’m not sure how this would be done. Regardless, it seems there is way too much hostility over content to try to improve the writing -- charges of propaganda would follow. Right now it looks like this article will be written by those with the most time and stamina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adjpro ( talk • contribs) 15:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed a line which said there were two polls for independence in 1992, which showed the will of the people wanted indepence. The article which is quoted for this is *before* the second poll (and so the sentence is not backed up by the article) and the first poll was not internationally recongized - not mentioning this is misleading. (Speaking purely personally, a 98% vote for anything smacks of vote rigging.) Toby Douglass ( talk) 07:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Can we include the different Russian cossacks in the infobox? since it is included in the War in Abkhazia (1992–1993) article.
Cossack units should be recognized if sourced properly. In the interest of objectivity, please also include references to any military actions of these units and any attrocities committed by Cossack units. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4543756.ece 70.193.63.107 ( talk) 04:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=232637655&oldid=232610559
A huge block of copypasted text.
Someone PLZ lock it from the new and unexperienced editors. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me please, but recently I started a new section here, advising that we need to add info about that Georgia attacked it all first, about that it attacks Russian peacemakers base and that we need to add "USA interest" section to Russia interest, Osethias interest and so on. Now I can't see any tracks of these my text. It is not even in a "history". How's that?-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
WRITE (!!!!)
What the hell? Som guys put links alone, destroying references section. Others write things like "NY Times" (instead of The New York Times). As I said above, admins should protect this page from new users. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Use aany of this elsewhere if you want and if notable.
Remove an item from this list if used. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This article contains a
list of miscellaneous information. (August 2008) |
The general staff in Moscow stated on the 16th,, "There is a presence of our armed forces near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it," "They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever." it said. [71] [72]
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
An interesting article today from the McClatchy newspapers, a US newspaper chain. | Tour of Tskhinvali undercuts Russian version of fighting. I suspect that it ought to be discussed here on the Talk page before inserting anything into the contentious article based on this source. N2e ( talk) 11:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia Should Curb Militias and Allow in Humanitarian Aid
Investigate Violations and Protect Civilians
photos for those interested. Bdell555 ( talk) 14:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
"On August 16, Russia put this number at over 10,000 refugees." Citied article says about present number, not total. So, this formulating is not correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.42.63.113 ( talk) 14:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Reading from a paper, Barak Obama issues his first statement about the current crisis. The video is a (possibly partisan) comparison between the two main contenders in the upcomming U.S. presidential election. (Youtube video Obama/McCain) -- Hapsala ( talk) 15:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
It may be helpful: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3571263,00.html Vadimkaa ( talk) 15:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=prev&oldid=232701715
Definitely not a hearsay. Perhaps a source with a "wrong" date for Igny ?? Elysander ( talk) 17:12, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Will someone who is a registared editor change the data on military losses.
The Georgian military losses should be changed to 160 killed and 300 missing because here is a reference [ [11]] that says the Georgian Ministry of Defence claiming to have confirmed 160 soldiers killed and 300 missing.
Originally, when the conflict was wholly or largely confined to South Ossetia, my sense was that the media generally referred to it as the South Ossetia war or the South Ossetia conflict. Now that much of the action and occupation has taken place inside undisputed Georgian territory, as well as in Abkhazia and even in Georgian territorial waters, the media has switched to refering to it as the Georgian conflict or the Russian-Georgian conflict. I propose that in the interests of accuracy, we follow suit. (Incidentially, it might be worth considering whether there should be a separate article just on the initial fighting in South Ossetia alone. However, this is a separate question and this article certainly does not have that limited scope). On the renaming question, I favour the 2008 Russian-Georgian conflict but could support something similar. Greenshed ( talk) 19:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_1.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_2.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_3.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_4.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_5.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_6.jpg GNU license. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ru magister ( talk • contribs) 19:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
"Used them in Battle of Tskhinvali. Btw, the story of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_2.jpg is BS - it's not WWII and the modern tanks can't burned with petrol bombs (the old tanks would be if hit near the engine), can be only set on fire which will destroy the paint on them. Ossetians not only had plenty of RPGs, they had also many tanks on their own. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 20:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Interesting Article about the Georgian Military's performance
4,000 killed - mostly civilians and mostly in villages in SO or near Gori. (in Polish) http://tygodnik.onet.pl/31,0,13603,wojna_po_wojnie,artykul.html
Supposedly kept in secret to not upset the public. Gvt said "no comment". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 20:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
While Russia says only over 10,000 Ossetian (and there are only about 55,000 South Ossetians total).
Russia trains its missiles on Tbilisi, AFP, August 19, 2008 -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 22:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Following that request, I am doing some special analyses, so you might be interested in those page hit analyses as well... --- Best regards, Melancholie ( talk) 23:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
allow words pointing to the pros and cons..removing the failures gives undue importance to a unworthy inference..
the Guardian reference (ref number 22) says:
Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch (HRW), who is leading a team investigating the humanitarian damage in South Ossetia, told the Guardian that Russian estimates of 2,000 dead in the conflict were "suspicious".
"The figure of 2,000 people killed is very doubtful," she said. "Our findings so far do not in any way confirm the Russian statistics. On the contrary, they suggest the numbers are exaggerated."
Neistat said that HRW investigators had, today and yesterday, recorded cases of Ossetian fighters burning and looting Georgian villages north of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.
"The torching of houses in these villages is in some ways a result of the massive Russia propaganda machine which constantly repeats claims of genocide and exaggerates the scale of casualties," she said. "That is then used to justify retribution."
Neistat said that doctors at Tskhinvali hospital had provided figures that 273 wounded people had been treated there during the conflict and a total of 44 dead people had been brought to the city morgue. Russian and South Ossetian officials have claimed that 1,400 people were killed in the first day of fighting, mostly in Tskhinvali.
There have been reports of Ossetians burying relatives in their allotments and there are no lists of the casualties. Neistat stressed that HRW's investigation was not complete
so stop sexing up with a georgian or us govt. slave like position..please be neutral (NOTE THAT I DIDNT ASK YOU TO BE A OSSETIAN)..
so please stop acting too smart..your cooperation is welcomed.. Cityvalyu ( talk) 00:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC) either state both sides or remove the sentence outright..restoring neutral version as i am not violating 3rr ... Cityvalyu ( talk) 00:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
"Georgian units are attempting to increase their combat readiness and have intensified ‘subversive’ operations against Russian servicemen, according to the Deputy Chief of the Russian General Staff. In a news briefing on Monday, he said: 'I cannot rule out that they might use mercenaries with Slavic appearance for a provocation, clad in the uniform of Russian servicemen, in order to commit subversive acts both on Ossetian and Russian territory.'" [12] -- Tananka ( talk) 02:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I reverted the edits by Ijanderson977 Taamu ( talk) 06:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Some damaged and destroyed Georgian ships: [13]. -- Namenlos Ein ( talk) 08:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24203940-2703,00.html claims 158.000 citing the UNHCR. However the webpage of UNHCR claims only 118.000. http://www.unhcr.org/news/NEWS/48a57cd34.html Can anybody confirm the 158.000 figure?. -- Jaimevelasco ( talk) 08:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
«Russia never deployed missile complex 'Tochka-U' in South Ossetia»: [14]. So, «Russia has moved short-range SS-21 missiles into South Ossetia, possibly putting the Georgian capital Tbilisi in range, a US defense official said Monday.», is just another case of (dis)information war. -- Namenlos Ein ( talk) 09:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Til now an open question. Can we clear terminus "civilians"? Southossetian sources did include volunteers and militias in their countings of civilian refugees and dead civilians. The "downshifting" of the official dates for Southossetia from russian side is remarkable > 1) over 2000 , 2) 2000 , 3) 1600 , 4) 1400 . Only one is obvious: too many refugees and too many dead & wounded people on both sides Elysander ( talk) 12:41, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
From the article: "Russian/Ossetian estimate more than 2,000 South Ossetians killed.[9] Russian/Ossetian claim a confirmed 60-200 Ossetian civilian corpses identified and 500 more unaccounted for.[10]"
So, they now say that more than 1,300 killed/missing in the "genocide" were "Russian citizien" combatants, right? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373322 -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 12:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia gave Russia 5 POWS and Russia gave Georgia 15 POWS (2 civilians) citation needed Weren't there reports of Georgians surrendering in their hundreds to South Ossetians and civilians being taken prisoner? There were two separate reports of 7 and 9 captured? Were the "NATO Troops" and "mercenaries" released too? What about those captured by Ossetians? With 300 missing in the cluster fuck that retreat was its hard to believe only 13 combatants were taken prisoner. South Ossetia being an internationally unrecognized state do they even have to release prisoners? Basically they are just criminals in Georgia like the Mahdi Army is in Iraq or Al-Qaeda in Iraq that announced their own government in Al Anbar province in Iraq? The way I see it they don't have to do anything and only Georgia can legally make them release or free the prisoners by enforcing law in Georgia. If South Ossetia wants to act like a legal state which South Ossetia proclaims it to be shouldn't they release the prisoners?
[16] Interesting article on Russian propaganda war. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 13:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Why there is still no info about damage and losses in military weapons and equipment? I saw some statements appeared on the page but they were deleted soon afterwards. I think it is justified to make two subsections: "Claims by Georgia" and "Claims by Russia" describing the official statements of each side on this issue. - Jake7 ( talk) 14:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Do we need to keep the infrastructure damage subject if now it's clear that Russia hadn't bombed the Tbilisi Airport? Taamu ( talk) 09:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Propaganda?? Do you have any sense of dignity? I'm from Gori and these marauding hordes your admired czar send in to plunder Georgia razed my neighborhood to the ground. You used cluster bombs to destroy the civilians and attacked a local hospital. All foreign jouranlists and the UN representatives have confirmed these facts. I can send you my own photos, but I'm sure you will still blubber of "media bias" and "western conspiracy". That's how modern Russian neo-bolshevist propaganda works. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 12:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
100% propaganda! In the best traditions of the propaganda war Nazi Germany and its Soviet allies waged prior to the invasion and partition of Poland. "All foreign jouranlists and the UN representatives can confirm whatever will be useful for the US government." - Ha, ha! So all foreign jouranlists and the UN representatives work for the US government, right? Typically Russian conspiracy theories and paranoia. There is no cure for that. If you want to see pro&#$tute, go to the Kremlin. We all know how they protect their citizens in Chechnya, Beslan, Ingushetia and now in Georgia. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 13:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
From the introduction:
Russian armed forces quickly responded with a large scale counter-attack into South Ossetia but largely refrained from invading Georgia proper.
What does "largely refrained" mean? You either refrain or you don't. How far the invasion went, futhermore, and how far someone wanted to invade (and then generously "refrained") is open to interpretation (making the sentence POV, methinks.) -- megA ( talk) 11:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Just wow. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Hmm...
-- megA ( talk) 22:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Specifically, like this. When your edit summary talks about removing weasel words, the last thing you should do is add them... ExOttoyuhr ( talk) 21:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
USER:Cityvalyu has many complaints against him for making extremely biased edits and then editing warring his garbage, currently he is listed under request for editor help and WP:AN with a huge wrap sheet of POV edits, childish behavior, inserting weasel words while caliming to remove them, vandalism and harassing other editors via their talk page - he will probably be banned soon, feel free to undo any biased edits he makes.-- Papajohnin ( talk) 23:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I wonder how "The 2008 South Ossetia war formally began on August 7, 2008" can be either NPOV, community consensus or a matter of fact.
While it is a war (as a consensus), it has not been declared, and the declaration date is not the start date mentioned above. The war is never formally started, but as a matter of results of several escalation of violence. It is not disputed violence happens before 1-Aug, before 7-Aug and before 8-Aug. Choice of 1-Aug, 7-Aug and 8-Aug is completely arbitrary depends on your view how much state-sponsored violence is a war, and depends on whether violence happens on a single de jure territory is considered a war (In my POV whether de jure is not important, but it is POV). -- Kittyhawk2 ( talk) 12:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia's PM Vladimir Putin is currently not included in the infobox, or should he? Swedish foreign secretary Carl Bildt says that the Russian invasion is partly Putin's personal revenge and something that he even warned U.S. President Bush for during a dinner session in Sochi. [24] If that's correct, and Putin is not de facto transformed into a lame duck, he may very well qualify for an inclusion in the infobox. -- Hapsala ( talk) 12:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Infobox should contain only commanders, while Putin is Prime Minister. Removing Putin. It was discussed earlier, see Talk:2008 South Ossetia war/Archive 1#Commanders -- Anton Gutsunaev ( talk) 18:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry -- I contributed to the confusion here: I missed that Carl Bildt said it. It's notable -- it should probably be in the article. ExOttoyuhr ( talk) 20:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, then Dick Cheney needs to be included in infobox of this article along with Rumsfeld and Powell. Only those commanding military forces (commander-in-chief/presindent) and in charge of operations on the ground (e.g. marshals or generals) should be included in the "Commanders" box. Putin neither of those things and should be removed. Zealander ( talk) 23:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I did write an edit summary explaining why I reinserted "EU-brokered..." in the section's title. It is because I think that brings clarity in relation to which agreement it is, as opposed to any other deal. - SSJ ☎ 14:04, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Your addition of the German occupation of Czechoslovakia to the "See Also" section went overboard. Comparisons to Hitler's annexation of Czechoslovakia should be done by historians, after the conflict is over; at the present, such a comparison is just inflammatory, even though the Russians are hardly acting virtuously. If notable people compare the conflict to the Sudetenland -- and I'm sure that some have -- you could mention that with suitable citations, here or in the article on international reactions, but Wikipedia is neutral on the issue and will remain so until a consensus emerges among historians. ExOttoyuhr ( talk) 14:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Agree, but then I question how NPOV an article can be that is about an ongoing event. I do however question the link between the Sudatenland and South Ossetia.[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 17:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)]]
rt
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).rb
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).at war
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |work=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
bbctanks
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |work=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |work=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |work=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
This is for "South Ossetia" section on Wikipedia:
On August 8, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated: "Georgia’s actions have led to human losses, including among Russian peacekeepers... Georgian peacekeepers were opening fire at Russian peacekeepers with whom they were supposed to work together in... maintaining peace in the region. Civilians, women, children and old people are dying today in South Ossetia, and the majority of them are citizens of the Russian Federation".[1]
On August 8, the International Red Cross urged the combatants to make a humanitarian corridor to evacuate the wounded and civilians from Tskhinvali.[2][3]According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali's main city hospital was non-functional, and ambulances could not reach the wounded, while Georgia continued to bomb the hospital. Twenty-two wounded remained in the building, which reportedly had only two storeys left.[4]International Red Cross spokeswoman Anna Nelson said it had received reports that hospitals in Tskhinvali were "overflowing" with casualties.[5]According to Russia Today, more than 150 people were trapped under the rubble of the city hospital.[6] Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin alleged that Georgia was responsible for a "complete genocide."[7]
The UN refugee agency, UNHCR, said that thousands of refugees left South Ossetia, mostly for North Ossetia in Russia within the first days of the conflict.[8] About 140 buses, carrying thousands of refugees, had already arrived in North Ossetia on Friday evening, August 8, according to Reuters.[9]
Human Rights Watch visited a camp for the displaced in the village of Alagir and interviewed more than a dozen people, including those from Tskhinvali and neighboring villages. Those from the city reported spending more than three days in the basements of their houses, unable to come out because of the incessant shelling. Residents of Satikhar village said that after the village came under heavy artillery fire on the night of August 7, all women, children and elderly (more than 100 people) started fleeing their homes. Most of them spent the next two days hiding in the woods and then trying to make their way toward the Russian border. Later, the Russian military in the village of Ger helped in the displaced civilians' transport to North Ossetia.[10]
Eduard Kokoity stated from South Ossetia that the death toll has risen to 1,400 in South Ossetia.[11] Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin on August 9 upon his return from Beijing to Vladikavkaz claimed that "tens of people killed, hundreds wounded" and 34,000 refugees had crossed the Russian border.[12]The United Nations refugee agency said that between 10,000 and 20,000 people have been displaced within Georgia.[13]According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali was lying in ruins, and more than ten border villages were burnt to the ground as of August 9.[14][15]According to western media who arrived in the city later, however, "[s]everal residential areas seemed to have little damage" and "[r]eporters witnessed more than a dozen fires in what appeared to be deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods and saw evidence of looting in those areas.[16] According to Chicago Tribune, theater and typesetting school were heavily damaged or destroyed.[17]
The fighting interrupted electricity and telephone service in Tskhinvali, and some inhabitants sheltered in basements[18] with no access to water or medicines.[19] Human Rights Watch interviewed an Ossetian man who noted that Ossetians had lost property "in Tskhinvali and other places".[20]
Russian media reported on August 9 that several journalists were hiding in the basements, as they appealed to world society for a peace corridor to let them out of Tskhinvali.[21][22]
At a makeshift hospital camp in Alagir on August 9, Prime Minister Putin was told that Georgian troops had set fire to a house with several young women inside. "They were rounded up like cattle, shut into the house, and set on fire. In another place, we saw a tank run over an old woman who was running away with two children. We saw how they slashed up an 18-month child," a refugee said.[23] Russian reports cited the representative of South Ossetia administration who asserted that Georgian troops opened an irrigation canal to flood the basements of Tskhinvali in order to prevent people from hiding in the basements of the buildings during bombings.[24] and that Georgian tanks ran people down and that soldiers took away women.[25]
Human Rights Watch entered Tskhinvali on August 13 and reported that it saw numerous apartment buildings and houses damaged by shelling. It said some of them had been hit by "inherently indiscriminate" weapons that should not be used in areas populated by civilians, such as rockets most likely fired from Grad launchers. It said there was evidence of firing being directed into locations where civilians frequently choose as a place of shelter, such as basements. Human Rights Watch talked to a teacher at the local kindergarten, who said: "They were shooting from Grad rocket launchers, paying no attention to civilians living in these houses. We went deaf from the shelling. They simply wanted to wipe us off the face of the earth." The woman showed Human Rights Watch researchers the kindergarten building hit by the Grad rockets, as well as fragments of the rocket itself. [26]
What we got here?
Also, there's no mention(!) of the plight Georgians in Abkhazia. UNHCR via Reuters Reliefweb:
More than 700 frightened residents of the remote Khodori Valley in Georgia's breakaway Abkhazia region have been escorted to safety in a two-day operation mounted by UN refugee agency staff. ( UNHCR secures safe passage for Georgians fearing further fighting)
Why are they "frightened" and need to be evacuated from the territory controlled by "peacekeepers", where the Georgian army did not attack so there's no "revenge"?
By the same article: Right now there are 118,000 refugees, including 15,000 Georgians from SO (practically all of the Georgian population there) and 73,000 Georgians from "Georgia proper" (maybe including Abkhazia in the report), mostly Gori.
Of ~118,000 refugees, only 1/4 are Ossetians. The rest are Georgians. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, what remains should be cleaned up, becuase it' badly written and mostly look like just copy-pasted (and doesn't matter if's in citation marks, it should be edited, it's supposedly encyclopedia and not a blog entry or a press article - if anyone wants to read more, they can click the link rwead in the source).
For example, the apparant copypasta of:
Human Rights Watch talked to a teacher at the local kindergarten, who said: "They were shooting from Grad rocket launchers, paying no attention to civilians living in these houses. We went deaf from the shelling. They simply wanted to wipe us off the face of the earth." The woman showed Human Rights Watch researchers the kindergarten building hit by the Grad rockets, as well as fragments of the rocket itself.
Should instad be:
HRW researchers found a kindergarten building hit by the Grad rockets, as well as fragments of the rocket itself.
If I'm back and nobody cleaned up this, I'll do it myself. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
If there was such a section one could fill it with reports from CNN, who do nothing but ignore the Russians and totally side with the Georgian President, who for the theatre of world media is playing the wounded aggressor. luckluckluck —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luckluckluck ( talk • contribs) 08:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
There's no such section, but should be (about the stuff which was presented as facts and provided as a justification for the invasion, but later turned out to be untrue). For example, we take the lie of:
According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali's main city hospital was non-functional, and ambulances could not reach the wounded, while Georgia continued to bomb the hospital. Twenty-two wounded remained in the building, which reportedly had only two storeys left.[4]
and the lie of:
According to Russia Today, more than 150 people were trapped under the rubble of the city hospital.[6]
and make it:
Instead, Wikipedia is promoting disproved lies as "humanitarian impact". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Captain and his bloody hungry beast - How much people you need bleeding and dying to call in "humanitarian impact"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.102.43.111 ( talk) 13:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
If there is to be a section of this kind, I think ” Propaganda” is too wide a term. I propose ” Information warfare” instead, or possibly ” Disinformation”, or ”Alleged disinformation”, if you like.-- gnirre ( talk) 21:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
OK.
I didn't even chceck the Georgia section, but I guess it may has similar problems.(?) "Buses" link was dead. (And yes, I check the links and the content - everyone editing should.) -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:52, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
And yeah, Georgia proper reports also should be cleared of media sensationalism and the possibly rumour-type stories of panicky refugees (which may be or may not be confirmed later) and only post the preliminarily confirmed reports (of which some might also be corrected later). For example, the Cluster bombing of Gori. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 15:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
"Since Georgian and Russian forces use identical Soviet-era weapons systems including Grad rockets, HRW couldn't definitely attribute specific battle damage to a particular belligerent" What a bunch of crap. Why would Russian bomb South Ossetians? They are our friends. They are on our side. Its OBVIOUS that this was the work of the Georgians.-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 17:46, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Besides, there're many blogs with photo/video of Georgian atrocities, as well as Russian media is filled with them. So both Russian and HRW/US claims should be put in the same section, with 'alleged' word preceding them. Once any of those gets confirmed by diffrent media source, some can be ruled as 'trustworthy' and some as 'information warfare'. As for Georgians, their media is filled with sick statements too. Their claims of Roki tunnel destruction, Russian tanks assaulting Tbilisi, etc. etc. were all later declared untrue. 78.29.67.134 ( talk) 18:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Since Georgian and Russian forces use identical Soviet-era weapons systems including main battle tanks, Grad multiple-launch rockets, BMP infantry fighting vehicles and tube artillery, Human Rights Watch cannot definitely attribute specific battle damage to a particular belligerent, but witness accounts and the timing of the damage would point to Georgian fire accounting for much of the damage described below.
Anything else? And didn't Russia bomb the Russian citiziens in Grozny - a much larger city on a much larger scale, and much longer too (to say least)? What's so supposedly different between the Russian army in Russia (Grozny) and the Russian army in Georgia (Tskhinvali) to make it even a littlest bit incredible? Russia literally(!) leveled much of a city of Grozny, but couldn't even damage a town of Tskhinvali? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Strike-through text
Considering that the US held military operations with Georgia just before this, that the US wants to put ABM's in Georgia, President Bush's various pronouncements, McCains pronouncements and that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili says "he talks to McCain, a personal friend, several times a day," it seems there needs to be such a section. (According to Dan Eggan and Robert Barnes, McCain's Focus on Georgia Raises Question of Propriety, Washington Post, Friday, August 15, 2008, A16. McCain also announced this week that two of his closest allies, Sens. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) and Joseph I. Lieberman (I-Conn.), would travel to Georgia's capital of Tbilisi on his behalf, after a similar journey by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice....The extent of McCain's involvement in the military conflict in Georgia appears remarkable among presidential candidates, who traditionally have kept some distance from unfolding crises out of deference to whoever is occupying the White House. Carol Moore 15:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
It should be noted that the children began to be evacuated on the 2nd; and, was over by the 5th. Prior to a "Georgian aggression".
[5] [6] [7] PlanetCeres ( talk) 15:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Specifically the sentence within the introduction,
refers to it happening afterwards. When a large part happened before. PlanetCeres ( talk) 15:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
It was on the 8th when the Russians invaded that it became an international problem! Bdell555 ( talk) 16:35, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
An estimated 24,000 to 30,000 out of the 70,000 South Ossetian population fled into North Ossetia (in Russia), some of them before the intense fighting broke out.
-- CopperKettle ( talk) 16:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
btw if i remember right then also there were somekind evacuation of Georgian civilians from SO somewhere between August 1-7 and it was speculated that it is pretty certain indicator for war that both sides are evacuating their people -- Zache ( talk) 17:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
-- CopperKettle ( talk) 17:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)Starting on the 2nd of August and increasing with the intensifying fighting, a stream of refugees from South Ossetia fled into Russian region of North Ossetia, reaching an estimated 24 000 to 30 000 of the 70 000 overal population.
The Roki tunnel between Georgia's South Ossetia and Russia has been a source of dispute between Russia and Georgia since the 1990s. Just two days (!) before the war erupted, US State Department spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos said that Washington would like to see "joint Georgian-Russian monitoring of the Roki tunnel, to stem the flow of illicit arms, ammunition and armed groups into the region." [8]. This is important enough to be mentioned in the article, methinks.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 18:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The information about Kosovo and it's relation to this conflict is excessive. For example, it is the largest subheading in the background section, but gives very little information about South Ossetia; although, it gives extremely repetitive information (mostly pulling from quotations) about why Russia cites the situation as a precedent for sending their own troops into the breakaway provinces of Georgia and Georgia proper. Some of these quotations are not cited well and/or are wholly unnecessary to this article: "An UN Security Council diplomat said "Strategically, the Russians have been sending signals that they really wanted to flex their muscles, and they’re upset about Kosovo."" Who is this Security Council diplomat? What country are they from? Does this information have anything to do with Georgia? And if everything is legitimate then (grammar) some should change "An" to an "A". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Menrunningpast ( talk • contribs) 17:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I offer for the possible improvement of this article the following from the Sunday Times (in the UK) which offers some interesting background regarding the "behind the scenes" issues leading up to the conflict in South Ossetia - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4545980.ece
doktorb words deeds 19:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Novaya Gazeta tells of this incident thus:The US State Department’s internal timeline of the crisis pinpoints the explosion on August 1 of two roadside bombs, believed to have been planted by South Ossetian separatists sympathetic to Russia, as a decisive moment. Five Georgian policemen were injured, one severely.
Best regards, -- CopperKettle ( talk) 21:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)..This war was brewing up for a long time, but one incident served as a formal pretext. On the 31th of July, a Georgian police car was blasted using a self-made remotely controlled device on a detour road near the Eredvi village to the east of Tskhinvali. Russian peacekeepers had time to carry out an investigation and found that two 122 mm Russian-type howitzer shells were used.
The policemen's Toyota was totally wrecked, and five Geogrians were injured. Just at the same spot, but on the 4th of July that year, similar explosive was used to destroy a car that carried the head of the provisional pro-Georgian administration of South Ossetia Dmitry Sanakoyev. After the blast the car was fired upon, but Sanakoyev came out unscathed though his bodyguards were wounded. Sanakoyev had been a minister of defence in the separatist government of South Ossetia, but later broke up from Kokoyti and passed to the Georgian side with a group of his Ossetian militant followers. Kokoyti and his supporters consider Sanakoev a traitor.
On the 1st of August the Georgians striked back and fired at Ossetian positions, for the first time using long-range big-caliber rifles. The separatists didn't expect such an attack and suffered noticeable losses, replying with a mortar fire directed at Georgian villages, and this fact was noted by the Russian peacekeepers. In the following days the Ossetians started an active provocation campaign, apparently aiming to bring on the full-blown conflict and draw in the Russians, and in this they funally succeded. ..
..etc. -- CopperKettle ( talk)Whatever the final death toll, few dispute that the city suffered destruction and that civilians were hardest hit. Nor is there any doubting Albina Shanazarov’s tragic fate. A 13-year-old girl, she sought to flee the city with her mother and three sisters...
Only stupid people take everything published in British, or for that matter any country's newspapers, as true. I remember, in the run up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, MI6 had Czech Intelligence place a fabricated article about Iraqi WMD in their newspapers, so that it could be picked up by British newspapers and republished, so as to add materially to the fiction. And that is just one example of how we are daily fed fiction from a rich tapestry of lies. 192.190.108.28 ( talk) 01:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
May I ask why exactly pictures that I uploaded under Creative Commons Attribution by Arkady Babchenko were deleted? I uploaded a bunch of them, and asked the author (Arkady Babchenko) personally if it was alright to use them. Direct quote: "Огромная просьба, когда будете выкладывать их где-либо в сети, упоминайте не только авторство Аркадия Бабченко, но и то, что они принадлежат Альманаху «Искусство Войны» ( http://www.navoine.ru)." Translation: "if you post these pictures somewhere else, please note the author, Arkady Babchenko, and navoine.ru".
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=610#610
-- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 19:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The georgian armed forces suffered losses about 133 servicemen. That was confirmed on Sunday 17th august 2008 by georgian soldiers during an interview at a military base —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL ( talk • contribs) 20:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I have edited rather drastically. My view continues to be that neither the Russian nor the Georgian (nor the American) Government is a reliable source, and we can leave out claims which are solely reprinting their various spokebeings. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
This is unacceptable. The Russian Government cannot confirm anything; nor can the Georgian Government: they are the interested parties, and we are not here to reprint their public statements.. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
In brief, don't cite people who "are apt to misinform". There is no good reason for doing so, unless better citations are not available; and even then there's a sound case for silence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The most directly relevant policy statement can be found at WP:PRIMARY. The publications of an interested party to a dispute or issue are generally regarded as primary sources. As such, they are not to be used except as descriptions of the various positions. If Russia says that the war began with A and Georgia says it began with B, then NPOV allows and encourages the article to recount those positions as positions. It does not allow the article to leave matters there if there are any secondary sources that are reasonably independent of the parties and that can provide context. Robert A.West ( Talk) 02:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
The article has many date references, some in the format of ex. August 17 or August 17, 2008, but there is no consistency in the format. Also, dates are being internally linked i.e August 17, 2008 and is it really necessary to do so? There are so many blue links that I feel the reader gets so mind boggled that he/she won't notice links that might enhance their understanding of the crisis.
So can we:
I don't mind going through the article and reformating to whatever we can come to an agreement on. «Javier»| Talk 00:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I understand there is a lot of editing on this page and it is difficult to keep track of all the edits, but the introduction is really hard to read for a native speaker without wincing, it seems to have been edited by many of the locals with their limited knowledge of English grammar. Does a native speaker have the time to revise at least the first 4 paragraphs? -- Lgriot ( talk) 06:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Not only the introduction; and the problem is not only non-native speakers. A group of editors might be able to meet separately to come up with a well written introduction, but I’m not sure how this would be done. Regardless, it seems there is way too much hostility over content to try to improve the writing -- charges of propaganda would follow. Right now it looks like this article will be written by those with the most time and stamina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adjpro ( talk • contribs) 15:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed a line which said there were two polls for independence in 1992, which showed the will of the people wanted indepence. The article which is quoted for this is *before* the second poll (and so the sentence is not backed up by the article) and the first poll was not internationally recongized - not mentioning this is misleading. (Speaking purely personally, a 98% vote for anything smacks of vote rigging.) Toby Douglass ( talk) 07:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=232637655&oldid=232610559
A huge block of copypasted text.
Someone PLZ lock it from the new and unexperienced editors. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me please, but recently I started a new section here, advising that we need to add info about that Georgia attacked it all first, about that it attacks Russian peacemakers base and that we need to add "USA interest" section to Russia interest, Osethias interest and so on. Now I can't see any tracks of these my text. It is not even in a "history". How's that?-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
WRITE (!!!!)
What the hell? Som guys put links alone, destroying references section. Others write things like "NY Times" (instead of The New York Times). As I said above, admins should protect this page from new users. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Use aany of this elsewhere if you want and if notable.
Remove an item from this list if used. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This article contains a
list of miscellaneous information. (August 2008) |
The general staff in Moscow stated on the 16th,, "There is a presence of our armed forces near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it," "They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever." it said. [43] [44]
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
An interesting article today from the McClatchy newspapers, a US newspaper chain. | Tour of Tskhinvali undercuts Russian version of fighting. I suspect that it ought to be discussed here on the Talk page before inserting anything into the contentious article based on this source. N2e ( talk) 11:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
"On August 16, Russia put this number at over 10,000 refugees." Citied article says about present number, not total. So, this formulating is not correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.42.63.113 ( talk) 14:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Reading from a paper, Barak Obama issues his first statement about the current crisis. The video is a (possibly partisan) comparison between the two main contenders in the upcomming U.S. presidential election. (Youtube video Obama/McCain) -- Hapsala ( talk) 15:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
It may be helpful: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3571263,00.html Vadimkaa ( talk) 15:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=prev&oldid=232701715
Definitely not a hearsay. Perhaps a source with a "wrong" date for Igny ?? Elysander ( talk) 17:12, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
If you want to know the story of this war, see this Guardian article. Bdell555 ( talk) 01:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The information about Kosovo and it's relation to this conflict is excessive. For example, it is the largest subheading in the background section, but gives very little information about South Ossetia; although, it gives extremely repetitive information (mostly pulling from quotations) about why Russia cites the situation as a precedent for sending their own troops into the breakaway provinces of Georgia and Georgia proper. Some of these quotations are not cited well and/or are wholly unnecessary to this article: "An UN Security Council diplomat said "Strategically, the Russians have been sending signals that they really wanted to flex their muscles, and they’re upset about Kosovo."" Who is this Security Council diplomat? What country are they from? Does this information have anything to do with Georgia? And if everything is legitimate then (grammar) some should change "An" to an "A". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Menrunningpast ( talk • contribs) 17:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Kosovo text needs to go, as does the reference to NATO. Background for the conflict should not also include speculation as to why the conflict began. IMO this should be a seperate section for now as the conflict is ongoing. History can be linked to South Ossetia and Georgia Wiki, as it is. Backround should involve the key players: Georgia, Russia and South Ossetia and historically documented events as well as those in 2008 which lead up to the war. Additionally there are no background/historical citations of appeals to international organizations to become involved in the conflict or this being blocked. I find this odd as I know Georgia has made appeals for international peacekeepers in the conflict areas. 70.193.42.221 ( talk) 03:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
If Kosovo text is here, why not adding
Manchukuo as a comparison as well?--
Kittyhawk2 (
talk)
15:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I offer for the possible improvement of this article the following from the Sunday Times (in the UK) which offers some interesting background regarding the "behind the scenes" issues leading up to the conflict in South Ossetia - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4545980.ece
doktorb words deeds 19:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Novaya Gazeta tells of this incident thus:The US State Department’s internal timeline of the crisis pinpoints the explosion on August 1 of two roadside bombs, believed to have been planted by South Ossetian separatists sympathetic to Russia, as a decisive moment. Five Georgian policemen were injured, one severely.
Best regards, -- CopperKettle ( talk) 21:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)..This war was brewing up for a long time, but one incident served as a formal pretext. On the 31th of July, a Georgian police car was blasted using a self-made remotely controlled device on a detour road near the Eredvi village to the east of Tskhinvali. Russian peacekeepers had time to carry out an investigation and found that two 122 mm Russian-type howitzer shells were used. The policemen's Toyota was totally wrecked, and five Geogrians were injured. Just at the same spot, but on the 4th of July that year, similar explosive was used to destroy a car that carried the head of the provisional pro-Georgian administration of South Ossetia Dmitry Sanakoyev. After the blast the car was fired upon, but Sanakoyev came out unscathed though his bodyguards were wounded. Sanakoyev had been a minister of defence in the separatist government of South Ossetia, but later broke up from Kokoyti and passed to the Georgian side with a group of his Ossetian militant followers. Kokoyti and his supporters consider Sanakoev a traitor. On the 1st of August the Georgians striked back and fired at Ossetian positions, for the first time using long-range big-caliber rifles. The separatists didn't expect such an attack and suffered noticeable losses, replying with a mortar fire directed at Georgian villages, and this fact was noted by the Russian peacekeepers. In the following days the Ossetians started an active provocation campaign, apparently aiming to bring on the full-blown conflict and draw in the Russians, and in this they funally succeded. ..
..etc. -- CopperKettle ( talk)Whatever the final death toll, few dispute that the city suffered destruction and that civilians were hardest hit. Nor is there any doubting Albina Shanazarov’s tragic fate. A 13-year-old girl, she sought to flee the city with her mother and three sisters...
Only stupid people take everything published in British, or for that matter any country's newspapers, as true. I remember, in the run up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, MI6 had Czech Intelligence place a fabricated article about Iraqi WMD in their newspapers, so that it could be picked up by British newspapers and republished, so as to add materially to the fiction. And that is just one example of how we are daily fed fiction from a rich tapestry of lies. 192.190.108.28 ( talk) 01:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Also the incidents of August 1st are referred to in a BBC article: "The separatist government in the breakaway province of South Ossetia has accused Georgia of killing six people and injuring seven in an attack. It quoted hospital sources as saying five civilians and a peacekeeper from the Russian province of North Ossetia were killed...
Georgia's interior ministry said that Georgian checkpoints had come under fire first and troops had responded. Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili also reported that South Ossetian forces had blown up a Georgian police car with a mine earlier on Friday, injuring six policemen. " [10] -- Tananka ( talk) 01:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
May I ask why exactly pictures that I uploaded under Creative Commons Attribution by Arkady Babchenko were deleted? I uploaded a bunch of them, and asked the author (Arkady Babchenko) personally if it was alright to use them. Direct quote: "Огромная просьба, когда будете выкладывать их где-либо в сети, упоминайте не только авторство Аркадия Бабченко, но и то, что они принадлежат Альманаху «Искусство Войны» ( http://www.navoine.ru)." Translation: "if you post these pictures somewhere else, please note the author, Arkady Babchenko, and navoine.ru".
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=610#610
-- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 19:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The georgian armed forces suffered losses about 133 servicemen. That was confirmed on Sunday 17th august 2008 by georgian soldiers during an interview at a military base —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL ( talk • contribs) 20:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I have edited rather drastically. My view continues to be that neither the Russian nor the Georgian (nor the American) Government is a reliable source, and we can leave out claims which are solely reprinting their various spokebeings. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
This is unacceptable. The Russian Government cannot confirm anything; nor can the Georgian Government: they are the interested parties, and we are not here to reprint their public statements.. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
In brief, don't cite people who "are apt to misinform". There is no good reason for doing so, unless better citations are not available; and even then there's a sound case for silence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The most directly relevant policy statement can be found at WP:PRIMARY. The publications of an interested party to a dispute or issue are generally regarded as primary sources. As such, they are not to be used except as descriptions of the various positions. If Russia says that the war began with A and Georgia says it began with B, then NPOV allows and encourages the article to recount those positions as positions. It does not allow the article to leave matters there if there are any secondary sources that are reasonably independent of the parties and that can provide context. Robert A.West ( Talk) 02:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Additional input, improvement, involvement, etc. at New Cold War would be helpful, and this seems like an obvious place to find interested parties... user:j (aka justen) 22:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The article has many date references, some in the format of ex. August 17 or August 17, 2008, but there is no consistency in the format. Also, dates are being internally linked i.e August 17, 2008 and is it really necessary to do so? There are so many blue links that I feel the reader gets so mind boggled that he/she won't notice links that might enhance their understanding of the crisis.
So can we:
I don't mind going through the article and reformating to whatever we can come to an agreement on. «Javier»| Talk 00:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I understand there is a lot of editing on this page and it is difficult to keep track of all the edits, but the introduction is really hard to read for a native speaker without wincing, it seems to have been edited by many of the locals with their limited knowledge of English grammar. Does a native speaker have the time to revise at least the first 4 paragraphs? -- Lgriot ( talk) 06:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Not only the introduction; and the problem is not only non-native speakers. A group of editors might be able to meet separately to come up with a well written introduction, but I’m not sure how this would be done. Regardless, it seems there is way too much hostility over content to try to improve the writing -- charges of propaganda would follow. Right now it looks like this article will be written by those with the most time and stamina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adjpro ( talk • contribs) 15:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed a line which said there were two polls for independence in 1992, which showed the will of the people wanted indepence. The article which is quoted for this is *before* the second poll (and so the sentence is not backed up by the article) and the first poll was not internationally recongized - not mentioning this is misleading. (Speaking purely personally, a 98% vote for anything smacks of vote rigging.) Toby Douglass ( talk) 07:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Can we include the different Russian cossacks in the infobox? since it is included in the War in Abkhazia (1992–1993) article.
Cossack units should be recognized if sourced properly. In the interest of objectivity, please also include references to any military actions of these units and any attrocities committed by Cossack units. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4543756.ece 70.193.63.107 ( talk) 04:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=232637655&oldid=232610559
A huge block of copypasted text.
Someone PLZ lock it from the new and unexperienced editors. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me please, but recently I started a new section here, advising that we need to add info about that Georgia attacked it all first, about that it attacks Russian peacemakers base and that we need to add "USA interest" section to Russia interest, Osethias interest and so on. Now I can't see any tracks of these my text. It is not even in a "history". How's that?-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
WRITE (!!!!)
What the hell? Som guys put links alone, destroying references section. Others write things like "NY Times" (instead of The New York Times). As I said above, admins should protect this page from new users. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Use aany of this elsewhere if you want and if notable.
Remove an item from this list if used. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This article contains a
list of miscellaneous information. (August 2008) |
The general staff in Moscow stated on the 16th,, "There is a presence of our armed forces near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it," "They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever." it said. [71] [72]
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
An interesting article today from the McClatchy newspapers, a US newspaper chain. | Tour of Tskhinvali undercuts Russian version of fighting. I suspect that it ought to be discussed here on the Talk page before inserting anything into the contentious article based on this source. N2e ( talk) 11:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia Should Curb Militias and Allow in Humanitarian Aid
Investigate Violations and Protect Civilians
photos for those interested. Bdell555 ( talk) 14:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
"On August 16, Russia put this number at over 10,000 refugees." Citied article says about present number, not total. So, this formulating is not correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.42.63.113 ( talk) 14:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Reading from a paper, Barak Obama issues his first statement about the current crisis. The video is a (possibly partisan) comparison between the two main contenders in the upcomming U.S. presidential election. (Youtube video Obama/McCain) -- Hapsala ( talk) 15:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
It may be helpful: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3571263,00.html Vadimkaa ( talk) 15:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=prev&oldid=232701715
Definitely not a hearsay. Perhaps a source with a "wrong" date for Igny ?? Elysander ( talk) 17:12, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Will someone who is a registared editor change the data on military losses.
The Georgian military losses should be changed to 160 killed and 300 missing because here is a reference [ [11]] that says the Georgian Ministry of Defence claiming to have confirmed 160 soldiers killed and 300 missing.
Originally, when the conflict was wholly or largely confined to South Ossetia, my sense was that the media generally referred to it as the South Ossetia war or the South Ossetia conflict. Now that much of the action and occupation has taken place inside undisputed Georgian territory, as well as in Abkhazia and even in Georgian territorial waters, the media has switched to refering to it as the Georgian conflict or the Russian-Georgian conflict. I propose that in the interests of accuracy, we follow suit. (Incidentially, it might be worth considering whether there should be a separate article just on the initial fighting in South Ossetia alone. However, this is a separate question and this article certainly does not have that limited scope). On the renaming question, I favour the 2008 Russian-Georgian conflict but could support something similar. Greenshed ( talk) 19:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_1.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_2.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_3.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_4.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_5.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_6.jpg GNU license. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ru magister ( talk • contribs) 19:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
"Used them in Battle of Tskhinvali. Btw, the story of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_2.jpg is BS - it's not WWII and the modern tanks can't burned with petrol bombs (the old tanks would be if hit near the engine), can be only set on fire which will destroy the paint on them. Ossetians not only had plenty of RPGs, they had also many tanks on their own. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 20:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Interesting Article about the Georgian Military's performance
4,000 killed - mostly civilians and mostly in villages in SO or near Gori. (in Polish) http://tygodnik.onet.pl/31,0,13603,wojna_po_wojnie,artykul.html
Supposedly kept in secret to not upset the public. Gvt said "no comment". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 20:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
While Russia says only over 10,000 Ossetian (and there are only about 55,000 South Ossetians total).
Russia trains its missiles on Tbilisi, AFP, August 19, 2008 -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 22:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Following that request, I am doing some special analyses, so you might be interested in those page hit analyses as well... --- Best regards, Melancholie ( talk) 23:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
allow words pointing to the pros and cons..removing the failures gives undue importance to a unworthy inference..
the Guardian reference (ref number 22) says:
Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch (HRW), who is leading a team investigating the humanitarian damage in South Ossetia, told the Guardian that Russian estimates of 2,000 dead in the conflict were "suspicious".
"The figure of 2,000 people killed is very doubtful," she said. "Our findings so far do not in any way confirm the Russian statistics. On the contrary, they suggest the numbers are exaggerated."
Neistat said that HRW investigators had, today and yesterday, recorded cases of Ossetian fighters burning and looting Georgian villages north of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.
"The torching of houses in these villages is in some ways a result of the massive Russia propaganda machine which constantly repeats claims of genocide and exaggerates the scale of casualties," she said. "That is then used to justify retribution."
Neistat said that doctors at Tskhinvali hospital had provided figures that 273 wounded people had been treated there during the conflict and a total of 44 dead people had been brought to the city morgue. Russian and South Ossetian officials have claimed that 1,400 people were killed in the first day of fighting, mostly in Tskhinvali.
There have been reports of Ossetians burying relatives in their allotments and there are no lists of the casualties. Neistat stressed that HRW's investigation was not complete
so stop sexing up with a georgian or us govt. slave like position..please be neutral (NOTE THAT I DIDNT ASK YOU TO BE A OSSETIAN)..
so please stop acting too smart..your cooperation is welcomed.. Cityvalyu ( talk) 00:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC) either state both sides or remove the sentence outright..restoring neutral version as i am not violating 3rr ... Cityvalyu ( talk) 00:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
"Georgian units are attempting to increase their combat readiness and have intensified ‘subversive’ operations against Russian servicemen, according to the Deputy Chief of the Russian General Staff. In a news briefing on Monday, he said: 'I cannot rule out that they might use mercenaries with Slavic appearance for a provocation, clad in the uniform of Russian servicemen, in order to commit subversive acts both on Ossetian and Russian territory.'" [12] -- Tananka ( talk) 02:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I reverted the edits by Ijanderson977 Taamu ( talk) 06:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Some damaged and destroyed Georgian ships: [13]. -- Namenlos Ein ( talk) 08:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24203940-2703,00.html claims 158.000 citing the UNHCR. However the webpage of UNHCR claims only 118.000. http://www.unhcr.org/news/NEWS/48a57cd34.html Can anybody confirm the 158.000 figure?. -- Jaimevelasco ( talk) 08:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
«Russia never deployed missile complex 'Tochka-U' in South Ossetia»: [14]. So, «Russia has moved short-range SS-21 missiles into South Ossetia, possibly putting the Georgian capital Tbilisi in range, a US defense official said Monday.», is just another case of (dis)information war. -- Namenlos Ein ( talk) 09:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Til now an open question. Can we clear terminus "civilians"? Southossetian sources did include volunteers and militias in their countings of civilian refugees and dead civilians. The "downshifting" of the official dates for Southossetia from russian side is remarkable > 1) over 2000 , 2) 2000 , 3) 1600 , 4) 1400 . Only one is obvious: too many refugees and too many dead & wounded people on both sides Elysander ( talk) 12:41, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
From the article: "Russian/Ossetian estimate more than 2,000 South Ossetians killed.[9] Russian/Ossetian claim a confirmed 60-200 Ossetian civilian corpses identified and 500 more unaccounted for.[10]"
So, they now say that more than 1,300 killed/missing in the "genocide" were "Russian citizien" combatants, right? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373322 -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 12:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia gave Russia 5 POWS and Russia gave Georgia 15 POWS (2 civilians) citation needed Weren't there reports of Georgians surrendering in their hundreds to South Ossetians and civilians being taken prisoner? There were two separate reports of 7 and 9 captured? Were the "NATO Troops" and "mercenaries" released too? What about those captured by Ossetians? With 300 missing in the cluster fuck that retreat was its hard to believe only 13 combatants were taken prisoner. South Ossetia being an internationally unrecognized state do they even have to release prisoners? Basically they are just criminals in Georgia like the Mahdi Army is in Iraq or Al-Qaeda in Iraq that announced their own government in Al Anbar province in Iraq? The way I see it they don't have to do anything and only Georgia can legally make them release or free the prisoners by enforcing law in Georgia. If South Ossetia wants to act like a legal state which South Ossetia proclaims it to be shouldn't they release the prisoners?
[16] Interesting article on Russian propaganda war. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 13:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Why there is still no info about damage and losses in military weapons and equipment? I saw some statements appeared on the page but they were deleted soon afterwards. I think it is justified to make two subsections: "Claims by Georgia" and "Claims by Russia" describing the official statements of each side on this issue. - Jake7 ( talk) 14:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Do we need to keep the infrastructure damage subject if now it's clear that Russia hadn't bombed the Tbilisi Airport? Taamu ( talk) 09:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Propaganda?? Do you have any sense of dignity? I'm from Gori and these marauding hordes your admired czar send in to plunder Georgia razed my neighborhood to the ground. You used cluster bombs to destroy the civilians and attacked a local hospital. All foreign jouranlists and the UN representatives have confirmed these facts. I can send you my own photos, but I'm sure you will still blubber of "media bias" and "western conspiracy". That's how modern Russian neo-bolshevist propaganda works. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 12:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
100% propaganda! In the best traditions of the propaganda war Nazi Germany and its Soviet allies waged prior to the invasion and partition of Poland. "All foreign jouranlists and the UN representatives can confirm whatever will be useful for the US government." - Ha, ha! So all foreign jouranlists and the UN representatives work for the US government, right? Typically Russian conspiracy theories and paranoia. There is no cure for that. If you want to see pro&#$tute, go to the Kremlin. We all know how they protect their citizens in Chechnya, Beslan, Ingushetia and now in Georgia. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 13:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
From the introduction:
Russian armed forces quickly responded with a large scale counter-attack into South Ossetia but largely refrained from invading Georgia proper.
What does "largely refrained" mean? You either refrain or you don't. How far the invasion went, futhermore, and how far someone wanted to invade (and then generously "refrained") is open to interpretation (making the sentence POV, methinks.) -- megA ( talk) 11:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Just wow. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Hmm...
-- megA ( talk) 22:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Specifically, like this. When your edit summary talks about removing weasel words, the last thing you should do is add them... ExOttoyuhr ( talk) 21:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
USER:Cityvalyu has many complaints against him for making extremely biased edits and then editing warring his garbage, currently he is listed under request for editor help and WP:AN with a huge wrap sheet of POV edits, childish behavior, inserting weasel words while caliming to remove them, vandalism and harassing other editors via their talk page - he will probably be banned soon, feel free to undo any biased edits he makes.-- Papajohnin ( talk) 23:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I wonder how "The 2008 South Ossetia war formally began on August 7, 2008" can be either NPOV, community consensus or a matter of fact.
While it is a war (as a consensus), it has not been declared, and the declaration date is not the start date mentioned above. The war is never formally started, but as a matter of results of several escalation of violence. It is not disputed violence happens before 1-Aug, before 7-Aug and before 8-Aug. Choice of 1-Aug, 7-Aug and 8-Aug is completely arbitrary depends on your view how much state-sponsored violence is a war, and depends on whether violence happens on a single de jure territory is considered a war (In my POV whether de jure is not important, but it is POV). -- Kittyhawk2 ( talk) 12:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia's PM Vladimir Putin is currently not included in the infobox, or should he? Swedish foreign secretary Carl Bildt says that the Russian invasion is partly Putin's personal revenge and something that he even warned U.S. President Bush for during a dinner session in Sochi. [24] If that's correct, and Putin is not de facto transformed into a lame duck, he may very well qualify for an inclusion in the infobox. -- Hapsala ( talk) 12:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Infobox should contain only commanders, while Putin is Prime Minister. Removing Putin. It was discussed earlier, see Talk:2008 South Ossetia war/Archive 1#Commanders -- Anton Gutsunaev ( talk) 18:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry -- I contributed to the confusion here: I missed that Carl Bildt said it. It's notable -- it should probably be in the article. ExOttoyuhr ( talk) 20:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, then Dick Cheney needs to be included in infobox of this article along with Rumsfeld and Powell. Only those commanding military forces (commander-in-chief/presindent) and in charge of operations on the ground (e.g. marshals or generals) should be included in the "Commanders" box. Putin neither of those things and should be removed. Zealander ( talk) 23:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I did write an edit summary explaining why I reinserted "EU-brokered..." in the section's title. It is because I think that brings clarity in relation to which agreement it is, as opposed to any other deal. - SSJ ☎ 14:04, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Your addition of the German occupation of Czechoslovakia to the "See Also" section went overboard. Comparisons to Hitler's annexation of Czechoslovakia should be done by historians, after the conflict is over; at the present, such a comparison is just inflammatory, even though the Russians are hardly acting virtuously. If notable people compare the conflict to the Sudetenland -- and I'm sure that some have -- you could mention that with suitable citations, here or in the article on international reactions, but Wikipedia is neutral on the issue and will remain so until a consensus emerges among historians. ExOttoyuhr ( talk) 14:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Agree, but then I question how NPOV an article can be that is about an ongoing event. I do however question the link between the Sudatenland and South Ossetia.[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 17:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)]]
rt
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).rb
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).at war
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |work=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
bbctanks
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |work=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |work=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |work=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)