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Russian North-Caucasian military region have more then 100 thousands solders. 620 tanks, 200 APC, 875 Artitllery units Airforces 60 Su24, 100 Mig 29, 100 Su 25, 40 L-39 and 30 Su24MP, and 75 Mi24
South ossetia have 87 T72 and T55, 95 Art units (include 72 howitzers), 180 APC, no warplanes, 3 Mi8 (transport) 5 thousand solders and 15 thousands in reserve
Georgian army have 29 thousands solders (100 thousands in mobilisation) 165 tanks (T-72 and T-55), 180 APC, more then 200 art. units, 180 mortars 10 Su-25KM, 2 Su 25Ub, 6 L-39, 9 L-29. 28 Mi's helecopters (at least 3 Mi24), 6 Bell-212, and 6 UH-1H (presented by USA)
Taken from http://lenta.ru/articles/2008/08/08/forces/
93.92.202.124 ( talk) 16:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Wait with it. Wait to the end of the latest war for the merge. To obscure right now. Apperently, this is not just another part of the conflict but a real war. Just wait. We could always do it later.
Biased Russian sources should not be used, because they are merely quoting South Ossetian terrorists reports, ignoring official Georgian side. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.1.129 ( talk) 00:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Therefore, I agree with Anthony Ivanoff (below) that "all the sources should be mentioned while stating to whom the statement belongs". -- Victor V V ( talk) 03:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
(Note: off-topic chatter removed.) Moreschi ( talk) ( debate) 15:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Definitely see some of the current sources for this article as problematic. I see Jon's point as a valid one; both Georgian and Russian sources should be treated with suspicion, as their reports can obviously be biased. As for the point raised by both Victor V and Anthony Ivanoff, I agree that it is possible that sources from neutral countries may also have either a pro-Russian or pro-Georgian bias, depending on the source in question. Using multiple sources from different neutral countries is likely to produce the most balanced view.
Based on the discussion here, I'm modifying the Casualties section of the article. The source used is RussiaToday, which does not quote its source regarding the Georgian casualty figure. Thus, I feel that "Up to 30 casualties claimed by August 8th" is the most appropriate wording until someone finds an official Georgian admission of casualties. The Russian casualties are backed up by a statement of a member of Russian military, so I think that can be considered as a reliable admission of casualties and does not need to be reworded. However, I'm taking out the words "officially" (if it's confirmed, it is obviously official) and "peacekeepers" (I feel the expression contains pro-Russian bias when used without quotes and pro-Georgian bias when quoted). Tritec ( talk) 20:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
fn.64 has a link to a report, which gives prominence to a link to a video, which states that bloggers are comparing the Georgian president to Adolf Hitler (photos of the mustachioed one included). Seems like a sly way of using Wikipedia to disseminate propaganda.-- Shtove ( talk) 00:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I've added the "current event" tag back in because this seems like one of the most important events right now internationally. If an escalating war involving a nuclear power isn't a "current event", what is? Esn ( talk) 07:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Concerning this edit, is it really WP:OR if the Georgian president says that Russia is involved, and if Putin says that "retaliatory actions will be taken"? Esn ( talk) 08:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The Georgian president or officials can say whatever they want, they are contradicted by Russian officials say that they are trying to keep the peace, not taking sides.-- Miyokan ( talk) 09:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Question for Miyokan: where/when exactly has Russia said that they're not taking sides? Is that sourced? Esn ( talk) 09:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
News: unnamed number of Russian peace-keeper casualties: [2] Esn ( talk) 10:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The source (life.ru) is by no means reliable (I haven't heard about it until today) but the video is interesting. Furthermore it's written there that:
“ | Как стало известно LIFE.RU, в сторону Цхинвала по единственной дороге, связывающей Южную и Северную Осетию, движется колонна бронетехники с российскими флагами. Это ракетные системы залпового огня "Град", 122-мм и 155-мм гаубицы, БТР и танки. | ” |
So, according to this source, a column of armed forces (including tanks, APCs, howitzers and Grad systems) under Russian flag moves by the Transkam towards Tskhinvali. Alæxis ¿question? 10:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Ossetian source claims ( [3]) that Ossetian sites ( http://osinform.ru/, http://cominf.org/) are under DDOS attacks now. I think this should be mentioned in the article.
Btw, I have now problems accessing Rustavi 2 site ( [4]). Please try to go to this site and write whether you have succeeded. Alæxis ¿question? 10:57, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Apperently the Ministry of Foreign Affairs got defaced and pictures of a minister portraied as hitler were put op. Site currently not loading http://www.mfa.gov.ge/
09 Aug 2008 2:05:47AM EDT: no response from server, guessing servers are experiencing loads nearing levels of a DDoS attack (too many users?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.121.75 ( talk) 06:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Made a mistake trying to insert info that was already cited in the article. Just getting back into the swing of Wiki'ing again. Petercorless ( talk) 12:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Please block this article from anonymous users. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 12:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I am registered byt i cant edit the article, why is that? (wanted to add that the US is sending an envoy as reported here -- Frodoqui 16:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The information from Russian media about Georgian Military falling back from Tskhinvali is probably false, and not yet confirmed by any other medias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markuspint ( talk • contribs) 12:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Better now —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markuspint ( talk • contribs) 12:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Just in case, information in Western and even Georgian media is sometimes false too, let's not forget about it. 85.202.113.34 ( talk) 02:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Dmitry
Support the motion here. Esn ( talk) 13:49, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Watch out for that "Russian peacekeeping" violates WP:NPOV. -- 76.19.149.244 ( talk) 14:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Stop pushing badly written, unsourced, broken English stuff.
This is really silly. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Mirotvortsy ARE soldiers. Russian Army active duty soldiers. They are NOT United Nations troops.
Not to mention that "more than 10" is not "10" and "about 30" is not "30". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about "sildiers", though. Srsly: Please come back when you learn some English. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Mirotvortsi in not only in Russian, Russia also understands it's very differently (than your standard Blue Helmets from the UN). For Russia they defend "Russian citiziens" (whom they gave passports AFTER the secession). For Georgia they are Russian occupational troops defending a de facto annexation of the region by Russia - and now invaders ("150 armoured vehicles" crossing the official border). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The sources call the killed Russians "peacekeepers", not soldiers. When the sources start talking about "soldiers", then we can call them soldiers. Offliner ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
It should be clearly written they are Russian soldiers (with heavy weapons and combat aircraft) on what Russia and some of their allies call a peacekeeping mission to "defend the Russia's citiziens" - and not the Russian UN peacekeeping troops sent into a random region by United Nations. For the uninformed reader who would think otherwise. Plus, they just apparently crossed the official international border in a large number with tanks - and if true, this is an invasion (just as Georgians apparently also invade their own breakway territory). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 15:08, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
You're talking like a UN Peacekeeper and a Russian Peacekeeper are somehow different. UN Peacekeepers carried guns and bullets and were real soldiers trained to kill just like any soldiers. Peacekeepers ARE soldiers. They are the same thing. Just ask the Canadians who fought at Medak Pocket...stop making asinine comparisons. A peacekeeper is a soldier, full stop. Every peacekeeper is a soldier, but not every soldier is a peacekeeper, it is only one type of mission on which he may be employed. 139.48.25.61 ( talk) 16:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia could call these soldiers flower salesmen: it's semantics. The fact is any unwanted incursion on sovereign territory is an invasion. Invading another country because you undermined its authority by giving out phony passports is an act of war. It is semantically correct to call these soldiers "invaders" or "the invasionary forces". It would be preferable to simply refer to them as "the soldiers", "the troops" etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.163.28 ( talk) 05:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
From NATO's Official Website:
"Statement by the NATO Secretary General on events in South Ossetia
The NATO Secretary General, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, is seriously concerned about the events that are taking place in the Georgian region of South Ossetia and said that the Alliance is closely following the situation. The Secretary General calls on all sides for an immediate end of the armed clashes and direct talks between the parties"
Source: Statement by the NATO Secretary General on events in South Ossetia LCpl ( talk) 14:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I wonder what with the other 428 voluntary Cossack divisions.
Is this a comedy relief or something? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
In russian wiki, there are Don Cossack voluntary fighters listed as part of the Ossetian side: 23px Донское Войско (добровольцы) 90.190.166.173 ( talk) 20:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Chystal has removed the sentence I added in the introduction about the presence of Russian troops. The explanation doesn't make much sense to me. I'm not sure what the wording should be, but I am sure that the fact that Russian troops are directly involved is a big part of the importance of the subject. Therefore we need a sentence on it in the article lead; what do others think? -- SCZenz ( talk) 14:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
So we can say "[acronym] troops" or whatever.
Also, I'd prefer "Russian troops" (because they are Russian troops and the rest - "peacekeepers" or "occupiers" - is POV). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 15:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
"Peacekeepers" should seriously be replaced by something else. Not only in Georgia, but also in the west they have often expressed their dissatisfaction about russian presence here. A term like that carries a moral judgement and fails wp:npov. - Pieter_v ( talk) 16:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
as
Russia obviously considers it their right to invade countries that had once been part of the U.S.S.R. in order to "back up" ethnic Russians. This is the problem. All of the countries that used to be part of the U.S.S.R. are being bullied by this military "Right" of Russia. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 17:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia has a mandate under OSCE Mission to Ossetia to maintain what is called a "peacekeeping" force there. Here's a reference: http://www.osce.org/georgia/22955.html 97.104.12.80 ( talk) 17:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
" Peacekeeping, as defined by the United Nations, is "a way to help countries torn by conflict create conditions for sustainable peace."[1] Peacekeepers monitor and observe peace processes in post-conflict areas and assist ex-combatants in implementing the peace agreements they may have signed. Such assistance comes in many forms, including confidence-building measures, power-sharing arrangements, electoral support, strengthening the rule of law, and economic and social development."
So, are they now "peacekeeping" (UN-definition, not Russia's) or not? If not, they are not "peacekeepers". By this I meant the "peackeeping battalions", because the "reinforcement" are obviosuly not. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Peacekeepers? Two regions of Georgia, which just happen to be of differing ethnic backgrounds and allies of Russia try to break away. Both have almost no military at the time...... And now, there are Russian soldiers within Georgia forcing their desires. Both regions have magically gained Tanks, RPG's, and more. And, the Russian "Peacekeepers" are invading Georgia. The term is "occupying army" or "invaders". And, does the word DURESS mean anything to you??.. Look it up. [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duress] Georgia never "wanted" Russian military within their borders. It was a forced occupation made under duress. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 22:24, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
So, how did the Russians come up with the IMMEDIATE ability to invade Georgia if all they are is "Peacekeepers"? And, how did a "humanitarian aid" convoy appear within hours after Georgia began to move in? 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 23:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Please, no more personal attacks. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 22:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
THIS is war room so let's argue here instead of edi-warring over war Okay? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Just stumbled upon this article looking for more information. Is there an available map like the ones commonly found on Wikipedia? The region in grey and the highlighted version in green, or something like that. Anything better than the black-and-white present one. It's not very informative. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.252.80.65 ( talk) 16:49, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Since this is an event on earth (as opposed to outer space), local time zones are prefered with UTC in ()s. So as part of the wikification process to Aug 8th (and also later portions of the previous section), the times should be changed to the local timezone for South Ossetia. (Hopefully the combatants are in agrement on what timezone should apply to South Ossetia.) Jon ( talk) 17:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I'd really like to add info about the Russian equipment which is in South Ossetia now. According to sources 58th Army and the 4th Air Army are "there." Does this mean they have all the equipment listed in the wikipedia articles of those units with them? Is it safe to add those to the article? Offliner ( talk) 18:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Dear wikieditors, please do not remove important information which is sourced by Russian or Georgian-language sources. Biased as they are, they present the most immediate sources of information, being closer to the conflict than Western sources. I really understand that most of you cannot read Russian, but you may use http://translate.google.com to get a good idea of what Russian-language article is saying. -- Anthony Ivanoff ( talk) 18:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Own official, okay? Like what Georgia says about Georgian. AND SOURCED. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Two Russian planes downed, a Su-25 and a Tu-22, confirmed by Russian military. Source. -- Illythr ( talk) 09:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Official and soursed numbers for South Ossetia are: 1400 civilian casualties during the first day of Georgian offensive after bombardments of Tskhinvali (Kokoity, the president of South Ossetia republic as quoted by (The Independent), (Reuters)). Please include this number in the article, as it now states that Ossetian casualties 'unknown'. Please also consider that these claim of casualties was done BEFORE and one of THE REASONS why Russian army entered the conflict. Please mind that and do not let the article on that matter read as if these casualties were in any part caused by Russian fire. 85.202.113.34 ( talk) 11:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Dmitry
The article is based mostly on Russian official statements and Russian news services. Therefore the article can not be taken very seriously unless the balance of sources and accuracy is increased significantly. I´m concerned about the neutrality-realistic-informational presentation of this article. Karabinier ( talk) 21:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Please add something on Russian cyberattacks on Georgian government websites. Minsitry of Foreign Affaris website http://www.mfa.gov.ge/ was first to be attacked. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 19:01, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Russian-speakers can read a very interesting opinion [6]. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 19:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Someone please do something about the troll. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
According to several sources two bombs were dropped on Vaziani military base. And they report that the aircraft that bombed Vaziani base had taken off from the territory of Russian army’s 102nd base in Gumru, Armenia. [7] This fact should be taken into consideration and placed in the article. Baku87 ( talk) 19:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Under "International organizations", it says "European Union - On August 9, Nicolas Sarkozy ... announced" - but the Le Monde article linked to is clearly dated August 8. The first time given there is 19h28 (presumably French time), in which case surely it would be before midnight even in Georgia. Loganberry ( Talk) 19:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Isn't this against standard Wikipedia procedures? I think outside users would have a lot of specific knowledge to add here. Tfine80 ( talk) 19:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes I agree with whats being said in the above by Tfine80. This censorship is new and not good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.176.17.233 ( talk) 01:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Azerbaijani governmential officials have repeatedly supported Georgia in this matter, here is a quote by the spokesman for Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry:
Azerbaijan recognizes the territorial integrity of Georgia and the conflict should be settled on the basis of this very principle. He also said that in line with international law Georgia has a right to restore its territorial integrity and the UN charter is a proof of it. Georgia's actions comply with international law.
Thats whats been said from the Azerbaijani side Baku87 ( talk) 19:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be the time when massive hostilities started, that is on August 7, the date of "Georgian operation begins"? I can't take "sniper war" seriously - I never heard of such thing, it's "incidents" not "war". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
So? August 1 or 7/8? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 21:25, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Turkey has, according to Reuters, agreed to supply electricity over and above the usual Georgian requirements. This is in response to a Georgian request. Worthy of addition to the section on Turkish reaction to the crisis? Source: http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKL86733520080808 Thuycidides the Younger ( talk) 20:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I noticed in the "Reactions" section that we've noted John McCain's response to the events, but not Obama's. We should include either both or neither of them.
Russians are repulsed from Tskhinvali, but they then bombed the Georgian vital port of Poti and the town of Senaki. Please add recent actions by the Russian imperialists to the article. There are several casualties among civilians but thousands are volunteering in the army. Thousands of Georgians are holding a rally at the Russian embassy in Tbilisi. The Russian ambassador is reportedly evacuated because of a fear of public revenge. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 20:24, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
According to the newsgeorgia.ru site [8], a military base near the Vaziani has been bombed again tonight. Vaziani is the base used as the site of U.S. training operations. News about the base: [9] (it has been bombed again tonight). I can't add this to the page (can't get autoconfirmed status), so please someone do it. Sorhed ( talk) 22:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The table showing military equipment should not be removed. I don't necessarily agree with Georgian and Russian country statistics, however. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ehaalandtluk ( talk • contribs) 20:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
It is what the main Russian English-language propaganda outlet ( Russia Today) is saying - unless there are neutral reports of "hundreds" of "volunteers" (and not dozens and not thousands and not two and their dog), for example, we can't present it's as a fact. Same for casualties - it is the Russian command saying the [number] dead/injured are "peacekeepers". It's not facts, it's what the propaganda sources are claiming.
Also maybe it should be "officially" instad of "confirmed". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 20:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually the "peacekeepers" and "volunteers" means something different in the sources. It's a citation. For example: According to Mr. Blah there are "hundreds" of "peacekeepers" in the region. Meaning that the Mr. Blah says they are peacekeepers, and he says there are hundreds of them, but the newspaper doesn't neccesarily agree or not-agree with him on the number or the title. It only states that this is what someone said. I think it's good and NPOV practice. Suva Чего? 22:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry that I cannot provide sources because most of English-language Georgia websites have been cyber-attacked. The Russian air strikes are expected in Georgia's capital Tbilisi. The president's palace, parliament, and ministries are being evacuated. Hospitals are full of wounded and injured. People are adviced to go into the subway. The Russians launched another round of strikes against the Georgian ports. Some reports say they have already opened the second front in Abkhazia. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 21:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, but the world mass media spared some correspondents from Beijing to Tbilisi, so it's not like if it's an English-languagen information blockade but we'll wait for what the "official" reports say. I'm not following updating of this article, though. I was concentrating on the infobox - and I still don't think Russia should still retain any kind of "peacekeeping" pretense after becoming a combatant side and apparently even attacking targets outside South Ossetia. (Reports like "Despite denials from Moscow, the Russian air force has been carrying out air raids in South Ossetia and Georgia itself, says the BBC's Richard Galpin, in Gori, eastern Georgia.") -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 21:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Removed (OR, incomplete/misleading), so here
Type | Georgian Army | South Ossetian Army | Russian Army |
---|---|---|---|
Tanks | T-72, T-55 | 15 T-55 and T-72 tanks [9] | T-80 |
APC's/IFV's | Otokar Cobra, BTR-80 | 24 APCs [9] | |
Artillery | VZ 77 Dana, BM-21 | 120 mm mortars | 2S3 Akatsiya |
Air Defence | BUK-M1, S-125 | 6 Osa, 3 Tunguska, 3 Shilka, and 6 Strela-10, 12 23-mm ZU-23/2 [9] | |
Aircraft | Su-25, MiG-25 | Su-25 (Rumored) | Su-25, Su-24, Su-27 |
Helicopters | UH-1H, Mi-24 | 4 MI-8 [9] | |
Small Arms, Light Weapons | M-4, M-16, G-36, Tavor, AK-47, AK-74, RPG-7 | AK-47, RPG-7, 9K111 Fagot and Konkurs anti-tank rocket systems [9] | AK-74 |
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 21:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Currently citation number 10 in the article links to a Georgian website. This is the website: http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=18871
The site has gone down. My presumption is that this was a legitimate citation that has gone down due to Russian action, but I don't know. Do we pull the citation or not? If we do, then it seems like the events themselves are dictating their Wikipedia coverage, and there is a risk of this and future conflicts receiving unbalanced coverage favoring the side that is able to maintain its own websites and take down those of its opponent. This would inevitably result in coverage at least a little biased in favor of the strong. However, if we don't take the citation down then we can't be sure that it is legitimate and even if it is we risk creating a precedent for leaving up unverifiable citations which could lead to illegitimate citation in this or future conflicts. I am at a loss as to how best to proceed. Christiangoth ( talk) 21:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Leave it for now and look for an alternative source for this. Also try Google cache is possible. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 21:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm not necessarily certain this is Russian/South Ossetian cyberwarfare, I think it's just the Georgian servers getting overwhelmed. I was able to access the page without too much delay. Kingnavland ( talk) 21:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Baku87, we all know that Azerbaijan spreads fairy tales about Armenia, Karabakh's history, and cultural monuments in Nakhichevan, but please let it not spread here. If they did fly from there, and if it indeed was a violation, find a more reliable source than something produced in Azerbaijan (topix.com is not reliable and it looks like they've just cut & pasted from the Azeri website).-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 22:11, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Since you dont even want to consider looking into the source, I will post it here for you:
Russian aircraft bombing near Tbilisi took off from Russian base in Armenia Georgian new agencies report that Russian military aircrafts bombed Vaziani base near Tbilisi at 15.10 by local time. Two bombs were reportedly dropped on the military base. No casualties are reported in the base. Gruziya Online website reports that the aircraft that bombed Vaziani base had taken off from the territory of Armenia. The agency mentions that there is an air regiment in Russian army’s 102nd base in Gumru, Armenia. According to the agreement signed between Georgia and Armenia, Armenia can not allow any other state to attack Georgia from its territory. Full Story: www.guardian.co.uk This is a reliable source and it seems you are the one who is to prove this did not occur. So please provide me with a source of your own proving this fact wrong. Dont start playing revert games, but rather proof this wrong. Baku87 ( talk) 00:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[11]
Also I read Dutch sources that according to Kacha Lomaia, Mikhail is about to, or already has declared war on Russia. Maybe this article will become the
Russian-Georgian War?
- Pieter_v (
talk) 22:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
"Georgia's pro-Western President Mikheil Saakashvili said the two states were at war." [12] - Pieter_v ( talk) 22:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia, Foreign relations of Russia, Territorial disputes of the Russian Federation, absolutely striking how undeveloped they are. -- Leladax ( talk) 22:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The Don Republic article badly needs a good translation of the Russian article. It's not the same as the Don Cossacks, as far as I can make out (see outside reaction section). I myself am very confused about what it is exactly. Esn ( talk) 23:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, also serving as the OSCE chairman-in-office, has been in contact with both Tbilisi and Tskhinvali, urging the parties to stop any military action and to try and restore direct talks instead. He has decided to deploy his Special Envoy immediately to Georgia, and is also himself preparing to travel to the region.
http://www.formin.fi/Public/default.aspx?contentid=134713&nodeid=15145&culture=en-US
- Mimu Bunnylin 213.159.245.240 ( talk) 23:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Who are the Russian volunteers? Average Ivans from Moscow or North Ossetians with Russian citizenships? If not then why aren't North Ossetian volunteers listed?
What about Don Cossack's 450 signed up people from "volunteer 429th independent motor rifle regiment" they will be listed if/when they ever reach Ossetia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 23:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I added some info about Terek Cossack volunteer involvement: [14] Esn ( talk) 01:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358 "Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital of breakaway..."
What does that article mean? That Israelis helped plan the attack or what? (1st source I see mentioning Israel)
Nothing seems to be working. -- Leladax ( talk) 00:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
What's the meaning of this text from the Russian wiki entry for Don Republic?
ВКО объединяет т. н. «реестровых» казаков, то есть состоящих на государственной службе в соответствии с Федеральным законом от 05 декабря 2005 г. N 154-ФЗ «О государственной службе российского казачества», а его Устав утверждён Указом Президента РФ от 17 июня 1997 г. № 612.
There are some links to the relevant government documents. Just what kind of organization is this? The Russian article also says that there are 135,000 members.
Esn ( talk) 00:24, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I'd add it but I'm not whole good with the reference thing...
Hey, this might be odd, but I think this should be the talk page topic to formally discuss casualties for the entire history of this article. Debate and whatnot regarding them here as well. Anywho: 1- Any word on the exact configuration of the 30 Georgian casualties? Do these include the losses in the recent bombings? 2- What about the forces of South Ossetia and their allies(Non-Russian): ANY word on them? -Shane
Look at these two links:
So, this information has not been proven true and could actually just be a rumor. The article should accommodate this information.
Also, it seems that Israel is selling arms to Georgia because of the fact that Russia is selling advanced military tech to Israel's enemies.
Contralya (
talk) 01:14, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I would have to disagree. I don't think many would argue that Putin is not still the real power within Russia. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 04:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I read on the BBC that Georgia does not accept the name South Ossetia and calls the region by its ancient name or its capital city. If this is true, then we have to think whether our name of the article (2008 South Ossetia War) could be viewed as POV. NerdyNSK ( talk) 01:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Don't do this! It creates broken links and is very annoying to fix! Try not to delete any references before checking if they are used somewhere else first!
Thanks in advance... Esn ( talk) 01:37, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This Russian article says that there are 29,000 troops on the Georgian side. Should it be added to the infobox and table at the bottom, maybe? Esn ( talk) 01:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I find it very interesting that the involved parties are also present with peacekeeping forces. That has to become confusing to everybody in the end. Why on earth was that solution chosen and not peacekeeping forces from either China, South Africa, Saudi Arabia or any other nation not directly involved in these matters? (is there an Wikipedia article on this?) Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 02:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsgeorgia.ru%2F Militaryace ( talk) 02:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps we should have some unrevokable facts presented on actual involvement by volunteers in combat before we add them to the article?
It seems silly to include them to the battle scene before they have actually faced it.
Furthermore, are the Russian peacekeepers really going to allow citizens of the Russian Federation to form paramilitary units and engage in combat in a conflict the Russians themselves have to peacekeep?
Talk/
♥фĩłдωəß♥\
Work 02:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The Abkhaz are, indeed, already in Georgian territory. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.196.154.49 (
talk) 07:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Russian North-Caucasian military region have more then 100 thousands solders. 620 tanks, 200 APC, 875 Artitllery units Airforces 60 Su24, 100 Mig 29, 100 Su 25, 40 L-39 and 30 Su24MP, and 75 Mi24
South ossetia have 87 T72 and T55, 95 Art units (include 72 howitzers), 180 APC, no warplanes, 3 Mi8 (transport) 5 thousand solders and 15 thousands in reserve
Georgian army have 29 thousands solders (100 thousands in mobilisation) 165 tanks (T-72 and T-55), 180 APC, more then 200 art. units, 180 mortars 10 Su-25KM, 2 Su 25Ub, 6 L-39, 9 L-29. 28 Mi's helecopters (at least 3 Mi24), 6 Bell-212, and 6 UH-1H (presented by USA)
Taken from http://lenta.ru/articles/2008/08/08/forces/
93.92.202.124 ( talk) 16:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Wait with it. Wait to the end of the latest war for the merge. To obscure right now. Apperently, this is not just another part of the conflict but a real war. Just wait. We could always do it later.
Biased Russian sources should not be used, because they are merely quoting South Ossetian terrorists reports, ignoring official Georgian side. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.1.129 ( talk) 00:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Therefore, I agree with Anthony Ivanoff (below) that "all the sources should be mentioned while stating to whom the statement belongs". -- Victor V V ( talk) 03:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
(Note: off-topic chatter removed.) Moreschi ( talk) ( debate) 15:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Definitely see some of the current sources for this article as problematic. I see Jon's point as a valid one; both Georgian and Russian sources should be treated with suspicion, as their reports can obviously be biased. As for the point raised by both Victor V and Anthony Ivanoff, I agree that it is possible that sources from neutral countries may also have either a pro-Russian or pro-Georgian bias, depending on the source in question. Using multiple sources from different neutral countries is likely to produce the most balanced view.
Based on the discussion here, I'm modifying the Casualties section of the article. The source used is RussiaToday, which does not quote its source regarding the Georgian casualty figure. Thus, I feel that "Up to 30 casualties claimed by August 8th" is the most appropriate wording until someone finds an official Georgian admission of casualties. The Russian casualties are backed up by a statement of a member of Russian military, so I think that can be considered as a reliable admission of casualties and does not need to be reworded. However, I'm taking out the words "officially" (if it's confirmed, it is obviously official) and "peacekeepers" (I feel the expression contains pro-Russian bias when used without quotes and pro-Georgian bias when quoted). Tritec ( talk) 20:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
fn.64 has a link to a report, which gives prominence to a link to a video, which states that bloggers are comparing the Georgian president to Adolf Hitler (photos of the mustachioed one included). Seems like a sly way of using Wikipedia to disseminate propaganda.-- Shtove ( talk) 00:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I've added the "current event" tag back in because this seems like one of the most important events right now internationally. If an escalating war involving a nuclear power isn't a "current event", what is? Esn ( talk) 07:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Concerning this edit, is it really WP:OR if the Georgian president says that Russia is involved, and if Putin says that "retaliatory actions will be taken"? Esn ( talk) 08:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The Georgian president or officials can say whatever they want, they are contradicted by Russian officials say that they are trying to keep the peace, not taking sides.-- Miyokan ( talk) 09:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Question for Miyokan: where/when exactly has Russia said that they're not taking sides? Is that sourced? Esn ( talk) 09:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
News: unnamed number of Russian peace-keeper casualties: [2] Esn ( talk) 10:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The source (life.ru) is by no means reliable (I haven't heard about it until today) but the video is interesting. Furthermore it's written there that:
“ | Как стало известно LIFE.RU, в сторону Цхинвала по единственной дороге, связывающей Южную и Северную Осетию, движется колонна бронетехники с российскими флагами. Это ракетные системы залпового огня "Град", 122-мм и 155-мм гаубицы, БТР и танки. | ” |
So, according to this source, a column of armed forces (including tanks, APCs, howitzers and Grad systems) under Russian flag moves by the Transkam towards Tskhinvali. Alæxis ¿question? 10:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Ossetian source claims ( [3]) that Ossetian sites ( http://osinform.ru/, http://cominf.org/) are under DDOS attacks now. I think this should be mentioned in the article.
Btw, I have now problems accessing Rustavi 2 site ( [4]). Please try to go to this site and write whether you have succeeded. Alæxis ¿question? 10:57, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Apperently the Ministry of Foreign Affairs got defaced and pictures of a minister portraied as hitler were put op. Site currently not loading http://www.mfa.gov.ge/
09 Aug 2008 2:05:47AM EDT: no response from server, guessing servers are experiencing loads nearing levels of a DDoS attack (too many users?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.121.75 ( talk) 06:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Made a mistake trying to insert info that was already cited in the article. Just getting back into the swing of Wiki'ing again. Petercorless ( talk) 12:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Please block this article from anonymous users. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 12:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I am registered byt i cant edit the article, why is that? (wanted to add that the US is sending an envoy as reported here -- Frodoqui 16:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The information from Russian media about Georgian Military falling back from Tskhinvali is probably false, and not yet confirmed by any other medias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markuspint ( talk • contribs) 12:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Better now —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markuspint ( talk • contribs) 12:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Just in case, information in Western and even Georgian media is sometimes false too, let's not forget about it. 85.202.113.34 ( talk) 02:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Dmitry
Support the motion here. Esn ( talk) 13:49, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Watch out for that "Russian peacekeeping" violates WP:NPOV. -- 76.19.149.244 ( talk) 14:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Stop pushing badly written, unsourced, broken English stuff.
This is really silly. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Mirotvortsy ARE soldiers. Russian Army active duty soldiers. They are NOT United Nations troops.
Not to mention that "more than 10" is not "10" and "about 30" is not "30". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about "sildiers", though. Srsly: Please come back when you learn some English. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Mirotvortsi in not only in Russian, Russia also understands it's very differently (than your standard Blue Helmets from the UN). For Russia they defend "Russian citiziens" (whom they gave passports AFTER the secession). For Georgia they are Russian occupational troops defending a de facto annexation of the region by Russia - and now invaders ("150 armoured vehicles" crossing the official border). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The sources call the killed Russians "peacekeepers", not soldiers. When the sources start talking about "soldiers", then we can call them soldiers. Offliner ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
It should be clearly written they are Russian soldiers (with heavy weapons and combat aircraft) on what Russia and some of their allies call a peacekeeping mission to "defend the Russia's citiziens" - and not the Russian UN peacekeeping troops sent into a random region by United Nations. For the uninformed reader who would think otherwise. Plus, they just apparently crossed the official international border in a large number with tanks - and if true, this is an invasion (just as Georgians apparently also invade their own breakway territory). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 15:08, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
You're talking like a UN Peacekeeper and a Russian Peacekeeper are somehow different. UN Peacekeepers carried guns and bullets and were real soldiers trained to kill just like any soldiers. Peacekeepers ARE soldiers. They are the same thing. Just ask the Canadians who fought at Medak Pocket...stop making asinine comparisons. A peacekeeper is a soldier, full stop. Every peacekeeper is a soldier, but not every soldier is a peacekeeper, it is only one type of mission on which he may be employed. 139.48.25.61 ( talk) 16:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia could call these soldiers flower salesmen: it's semantics. The fact is any unwanted incursion on sovereign territory is an invasion. Invading another country because you undermined its authority by giving out phony passports is an act of war. It is semantically correct to call these soldiers "invaders" or "the invasionary forces". It would be preferable to simply refer to them as "the soldiers", "the troops" etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.163.28 ( talk) 05:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
From NATO's Official Website:
"Statement by the NATO Secretary General on events in South Ossetia
The NATO Secretary General, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, is seriously concerned about the events that are taking place in the Georgian region of South Ossetia and said that the Alliance is closely following the situation. The Secretary General calls on all sides for an immediate end of the armed clashes and direct talks between the parties"
Source: Statement by the NATO Secretary General on events in South Ossetia LCpl ( talk) 14:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I wonder what with the other 428 voluntary Cossack divisions.
Is this a comedy relief or something? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
In russian wiki, there are Don Cossack voluntary fighters listed as part of the Ossetian side: 23px Донское Войско (добровольцы) 90.190.166.173 ( talk) 20:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Chystal has removed the sentence I added in the introduction about the presence of Russian troops. The explanation doesn't make much sense to me. I'm not sure what the wording should be, but I am sure that the fact that Russian troops are directly involved is a big part of the importance of the subject. Therefore we need a sentence on it in the article lead; what do others think? -- SCZenz ( talk) 14:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
So we can say "[acronym] troops" or whatever.
Also, I'd prefer "Russian troops" (because they are Russian troops and the rest - "peacekeepers" or "occupiers" - is POV). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 15:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
"Peacekeepers" should seriously be replaced by something else. Not only in Georgia, but also in the west they have often expressed their dissatisfaction about russian presence here. A term like that carries a moral judgement and fails wp:npov. - Pieter_v ( talk) 16:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
as
Russia obviously considers it their right to invade countries that had once been part of the U.S.S.R. in order to "back up" ethnic Russians. This is the problem. All of the countries that used to be part of the U.S.S.R. are being bullied by this military "Right" of Russia. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 17:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia has a mandate under OSCE Mission to Ossetia to maintain what is called a "peacekeeping" force there. Here's a reference: http://www.osce.org/georgia/22955.html 97.104.12.80 ( talk) 17:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
" Peacekeeping, as defined by the United Nations, is "a way to help countries torn by conflict create conditions for sustainable peace."[1] Peacekeepers monitor and observe peace processes in post-conflict areas and assist ex-combatants in implementing the peace agreements they may have signed. Such assistance comes in many forms, including confidence-building measures, power-sharing arrangements, electoral support, strengthening the rule of law, and economic and social development."
So, are they now "peacekeeping" (UN-definition, not Russia's) or not? If not, they are not "peacekeepers". By this I meant the "peackeeping battalions", because the "reinforcement" are obviosuly not. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Peacekeepers? Two regions of Georgia, which just happen to be of differing ethnic backgrounds and allies of Russia try to break away. Both have almost no military at the time...... And now, there are Russian soldiers within Georgia forcing their desires. Both regions have magically gained Tanks, RPG's, and more. And, the Russian "Peacekeepers" are invading Georgia. The term is "occupying army" or "invaders". And, does the word DURESS mean anything to you??.. Look it up. [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duress] Georgia never "wanted" Russian military within their borders. It was a forced occupation made under duress. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 22:24, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
So, how did the Russians come up with the IMMEDIATE ability to invade Georgia if all they are is "Peacekeepers"? And, how did a "humanitarian aid" convoy appear within hours after Georgia began to move in? 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 23:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Please, no more personal attacks. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 22:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
THIS is war room so let's argue here instead of edi-warring over war Okay? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Just stumbled upon this article looking for more information. Is there an available map like the ones commonly found on Wikipedia? The region in grey and the highlighted version in green, or something like that. Anything better than the black-and-white present one. It's not very informative. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.252.80.65 ( talk) 16:49, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Since this is an event on earth (as opposed to outer space), local time zones are prefered with UTC in ()s. So as part of the wikification process to Aug 8th (and also later portions of the previous section), the times should be changed to the local timezone for South Ossetia. (Hopefully the combatants are in agrement on what timezone should apply to South Ossetia.) Jon ( talk) 17:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I'd really like to add info about the Russian equipment which is in South Ossetia now. According to sources 58th Army and the 4th Air Army are "there." Does this mean they have all the equipment listed in the wikipedia articles of those units with them? Is it safe to add those to the article? Offliner ( talk) 18:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Dear wikieditors, please do not remove important information which is sourced by Russian or Georgian-language sources. Biased as they are, they present the most immediate sources of information, being closer to the conflict than Western sources. I really understand that most of you cannot read Russian, but you may use http://translate.google.com to get a good idea of what Russian-language article is saying. -- Anthony Ivanoff ( talk) 18:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Own official, okay? Like what Georgia says about Georgian. AND SOURCED. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Two Russian planes downed, a Su-25 and a Tu-22, confirmed by Russian military. Source. -- Illythr ( talk) 09:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Official and soursed numbers for South Ossetia are: 1400 civilian casualties during the first day of Georgian offensive after bombardments of Tskhinvali (Kokoity, the president of South Ossetia republic as quoted by (The Independent), (Reuters)). Please include this number in the article, as it now states that Ossetian casualties 'unknown'. Please also consider that these claim of casualties was done BEFORE and one of THE REASONS why Russian army entered the conflict. Please mind that and do not let the article on that matter read as if these casualties were in any part caused by Russian fire. 85.202.113.34 ( talk) 11:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Dmitry
The article is based mostly on Russian official statements and Russian news services. Therefore the article can not be taken very seriously unless the balance of sources and accuracy is increased significantly. I´m concerned about the neutrality-realistic-informational presentation of this article. Karabinier ( talk) 21:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Please add something on Russian cyberattacks on Georgian government websites. Minsitry of Foreign Affaris website http://www.mfa.gov.ge/ was first to be attacked. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 19:01, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Russian-speakers can read a very interesting opinion [6]. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 19:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Someone please do something about the troll. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
According to several sources two bombs were dropped on Vaziani military base. And they report that the aircraft that bombed Vaziani base had taken off from the territory of Russian army’s 102nd base in Gumru, Armenia. [7] This fact should be taken into consideration and placed in the article. Baku87 ( talk) 19:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Under "International organizations", it says "European Union - On August 9, Nicolas Sarkozy ... announced" - but the Le Monde article linked to is clearly dated August 8. The first time given there is 19h28 (presumably French time), in which case surely it would be before midnight even in Georgia. Loganberry ( Talk) 19:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Isn't this against standard Wikipedia procedures? I think outside users would have a lot of specific knowledge to add here. Tfine80 ( talk) 19:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes I agree with whats being said in the above by Tfine80. This censorship is new and not good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.176.17.233 ( talk) 01:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Azerbaijani governmential officials have repeatedly supported Georgia in this matter, here is a quote by the spokesman for Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry:
Azerbaijan recognizes the territorial integrity of Georgia and the conflict should be settled on the basis of this very principle. He also said that in line with international law Georgia has a right to restore its territorial integrity and the UN charter is a proof of it. Georgia's actions comply with international law.
Thats whats been said from the Azerbaijani side Baku87 ( talk) 19:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be the time when massive hostilities started, that is on August 7, the date of "Georgian operation begins"? I can't take "sniper war" seriously - I never heard of such thing, it's "incidents" not "war". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
So? August 1 or 7/8? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 21:25, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Turkey has, according to Reuters, agreed to supply electricity over and above the usual Georgian requirements. This is in response to a Georgian request. Worthy of addition to the section on Turkish reaction to the crisis? Source: http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKL86733520080808 Thuycidides the Younger ( talk) 20:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I noticed in the "Reactions" section that we've noted John McCain's response to the events, but not Obama's. We should include either both or neither of them.
Russians are repulsed from Tskhinvali, but they then bombed the Georgian vital port of Poti and the town of Senaki. Please add recent actions by the Russian imperialists to the article. There are several casualties among civilians but thousands are volunteering in the army. Thousands of Georgians are holding a rally at the Russian embassy in Tbilisi. The Russian ambassador is reportedly evacuated because of a fear of public revenge. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 20:24, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
According to the newsgeorgia.ru site [8], a military base near the Vaziani has been bombed again tonight. Vaziani is the base used as the site of U.S. training operations. News about the base: [9] (it has been bombed again tonight). I can't add this to the page (can't get autoconfirmed status), so please someone do it. Sorhed ( talk) 22:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The table showing military equipment should not be removed. I don't necessarily agree with Georgian and Russian country statistics, however. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ehaalandtluk ( talk • contribs) 20:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
It is what the main Russian English-language propaganda outlet ( Russia Today) is saying - unless there are neutral reports of "hundreds" of "volunteers" (and not dozens and not thousands and not two and their dog), for example, we can't present it's as a fact. Same for casualties - it is the Russian command saying the [number] dead/injured are "peacekeepers". It's not facts, it's what the propaganda sources are claiming.
Also maybe it should be "officially" instad of "confirmed". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 20:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually the "peacekeepers" and "volunteers" means something different in the sources. It's a citation. For example: According to Mr. Blah there are "hundreds" of "peacekeepers" in the region. Meaning that the Mr. Blah says they are peacekeepers, and he says there are hundreds of them, but the newspaper doesn't neccesarily agree or not-agree with him on the number or the title. It only states that this is what someone said. I think it's good and NPOV practice. Suva Чего? 22:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry that I cannot provide sources because most of English-language Georgia websites have been cyber-attacked. The Russian air strikes are expected in Georgia's capital Tbilisi. The president's palace, parliament, and ministries are being evacuated. Hospitals are full of wounded and injured. People are adviced to go into the subway. The Russians launched another round of strikes against the Georgian ports. Some reports say they have already opened the second front in Abkhazia. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 21:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, but the world mass media spared some correspondents from Beijing to Tbilisi, so it's not like if it's an English-languagen information blockade but we'll wait for what the "official" reports say. I'm not following updating of this article, though. I was concentrating on the infobox - and I still don't think Russia should still retain any kind of "peacekeeping" pretense after becoming a combatant side and apparently even attacking targets outside South Ossetia. (Reports like "Despite denials from Moscow, the Russian air force has been carrying out air raids in South Ossetia and Georgia itself, says the BBC's Richard Galpin, in Gori, eastern Georgia.") -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 21:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Removed (OR, incomplete/misleading), so here
Type | Georgian Army | South Ossetian Army | Russian Army |
---|---|---|---|
Tanks | T-72, T-55 | 15 T-55 and T-72 tanks [9] | T-80 |
APC's/IFV's | Otokar Cobra, BTR-80 | 24 APCs [9] | |
Artillery | VZ 77 Dana, BM-21 | 120 mm mortars | 2S3 Akatsiya |
Air Defence | BUK-M1, S-125 | 6 Osa, 3 Tunguska, 3 Shilka, and 6 Strela-10, 12 23-mm ZU-23/2 [9] | |
Aircraft | Su-25, MiG-25 | Su-25 (Rumored) | Su-25, Su-24, Su-27 |
Helicopters | UH-1H, Mi-24 | 4 MI-8 [9] | |
Small Arms, Light Weapons | M-4, M-16, G-36, Tavor, AK-47, AK-74, RPG-7 | AK-47, RPG-7, 9K111 Fagot and Konkurs anti-tank rocket systems [9] | AK-74 |
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 21:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Currently citation number 10 in the article links to a Georgian website. This is the website: http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=18871
The site has gone down. My presumption is that this was a legitimate citation that has gone down due to Russian action, but I don't know. Do we pull the citation or not? If we do, then it seems like the events themselves are dictating their Wikipedia coverage, and there is a risk of this and future conflicts receiving unbalanced coverage favoring the side that is able to maintain its own websites and take down those of its opponent. This would inevitably result in coverage at least a little biased in favor of the strong. However, if we don't take the citation down then we can't be sure that it is legitimate and even if it is we risk creating a precedent for leaving up unverifiable citations which could lead to illegitimate citation in this or future conflicts. I am at a loss as to how best to proceed. Christiangoth ( talk) 21:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Leave it for now and look for an alternative source for this. Also try Google cache is possible. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 21:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm not necessarily certain this is Russian/South Ossetian cyberwarfare, I think it's just the Georgian servers getting overwhelmed. I was able to access the page without too much delay. Kingnavland ( talk) 21:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Baku87, we all know that Azerbaijan spreads fairy tales about Armenia, Karabakh's history, and cultural monuments in Nakhichevan, but please let it not spread here. If they did fly from there, and if it indeed was a violation, find a more reliable source than something produced in Azerbaijan (topix.com is not reliable and it looks like they've just cut & pasted from the Azeri website).-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 22:11, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Since you dont even want to consider looking into the source, I will post it here for you:
Russian aircraft bombing near Tbilisi took off from Russian base in Armenia Georgian new agencies report that Russian military aircrafts bombed Vaziani base near Tbilisi at 15.10 by local time. Two bombs were reportedly dropped on the military base. No casualties are reported in the base. Gruziya Online website reports that the aircraft that bombed Vaziani base had taken off from the territory of Armenia. The agency mentions that there is an air regiment in Russian army’s 102nd base in Gumru, Armenia. According to the agreement signed between Georgia and Armenia, Armenia can not allow any other state to attack Georgia from its territory. Full Story: www.guardian.co.uk This is a reliable source and it seems you are the one who is to prove this did not occur. So please provide me with a source of your own proving this fact wrong. Dont start playing revert games, but rather proof this wrong. Baku87 ( talk) 00:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[11]
Also I read Dutch sources that according to Kacha Lomaia, Mikhail is about to, or already has declared war on Russia. Maybe this article will become the
Russian-Georgian War?
- Pieter_v (
talk) 22:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
"Georgia's pro-Western President Mikheil Saakashvili said the two states were at war." [12] - Pieter_v ( talk) 22:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia, Foreign relations of Russia, Territorial disputes of the Russian Federation, absolutely striking how undeveloped they are. -- Leladax ( talk) 22:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The Don Republic article badly needs a good translation of the Russian article. It's not the same as the Don Cossacks, as far as I can make out (see outside reaction section). I myself am very confused about what it is exactly. Esn ( talk) 23:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, also serving as the OSCE chairman-in-office, has been in contact with both Tbilisi and Tskhinvali, urging the parties to stop any military action and to try and restore direct talks instead. He has decided to deploy his Special Envoy immediately to Georgia, and is also himself preparing to travel to the region.
http://www.formin.fi/Public/default.aspx?contentid=134713&nodeid=15145&culture=en-US
- Mimu Bunnylin 213.159.245.240 ( talk) 23:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Who are the Russian volunteers? Average Ivans from Moscow or North Ossetians with Russian citizenships? If not then why aren't North Ossetian volunteers listed?
What about Don Cossack's 450 signed up people from "volunteer 429th independent motor rifle regiment" they will be listed if/when they ever reach Ossetia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 23:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I added some info about Terek Cossack volunteer involvement: [14] Esn ( talk) 01:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358 "Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital of breakaway..."
What does that article mean? That Israelis helped plan the attack or what? (1st source I see mentioning Israel)
Nothing seems to be working. -- Leladax ( talk) 00:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
What's the meaning of this text from the Russian wiki entry for Don Republic?
ВКО объединяет т. н. «реестровых» казаков, то есть состоящих на государственной службе в соответствии с Федеральным законом от 05 декабря 2005 г. N 154-ФЗ «О государственной службе российского казачества», а его Устав утверждён Указом Президента РФ от 17 июня 1997 г. № 612.
There are some links to the relevant government documents. Just what kind of organization is this? The Russian article also says that there are 135,000 members.
Esn ( talk) 00:24, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I'd add it but I'm not whole good with the reference thing...
Hey, this might be odd, but I think this should be the talk page topic to formally discuss casualties for the entire history of this article. Debate and whatnot regarding them here as well. Anywho: 1- Any word on the exact configuration of the 30 Georgian casualties? Do these include the losses in the recent bombings? 2- What about the forces of South Ossetia and their allies(Non-Russian): ANY word on them? -Shane
Look at these two links:
So, this information has not been proven true and could actually just be a rumor. The article should accommodate this information.
Also, it seems that Israel is selling arms to Georgia because of the fact that Russia is selling advanced military tech to Israel's enemies.
Contralya (
talk) 01:14, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I would have to disagree. I don't think many would argue that Putin is not still the real power within Russia. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 04:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I read on the BBC that Georgia does not accept the name South Ossetia and calls the region by its ancient name or its capital city. If this is true, then we have to think whether our name of the article (2008 South Ossetia War) could be viewed as POV. NerdyNSK ( talk) 01:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Don't do this! It creates broken links and is very annoying to fix! Try not to delete any references before checking if they are used somewhere else first!
Thanks in advance... Esn ( talk) 01:37, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This Russian article says that there are 29,000 troops on the Georgian side. Should it be added to the infobox and table at the bottom, maybe? Esn ( talk) 01:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I find it very interesting that the involved parties are also present with peacekeeping forces. That has to become confusing to everybody in the end. Why on earth was that solution chosen and not peacekeeping forces from either China, South Africa, Saudi Arabia or any other nation not directly involved in these matters? (is there an Wikipedia article on this?) Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 02:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsgeorgia.ru%2F Militaryace ( talk) 02:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps we should have some unrevokable facts presented on actual involvement by volunteers in combat before we add them to the article?
It seems silly to include them to the battle scene before they have actually faced it.
Furthermore, are the Russian peacekeepers really going to allow citizens of the Russian Federation to form paramilitary units and engage in combat in a conflict the Russians themselves have to peacekeep?
Talk/
♥фĩłдωəß♥\
Work 02:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The Abkhaz are, indeed, already in Georgian territory. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.196.154.49 (
talk) 07:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
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