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For an article on "Donbass People's Militia", this article looks remarkably like a collection of weapons? Is the article a weapons manual? See what Wikipedia is not, per is not indiscriminate collection of lists, cruft, etc. The entire "Equipment" subsection is three times the length of the subject of the title and detracts from the content. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 00:49, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
All sources for the relevant section are Russian yellow press or independent propaganda sites (i.e., ultimately, self-published). Reliable sources are needed, particularly when speculating on the nationality of volunteers who have joined the separatists. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 10:36, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Both Kiev & Moscow sources reported on September 16 the creation of the "United Armed Forces of Novorossiya", so I think that the article should be renamed and expanded to the rest of Lugansk battallions (Zarya, for example).-- HC PUNXKID 22:51, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
As Iryna Harpy mentioned, the article is getting too lengthy due to the equipment section. Now that the militias merged into a single group, we should move the section into a new page called "List of equipment of the United Armed Forces of Novorossiya". SkoraPobeda ( talk) 14:14, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Don't know who commands it. They have a bat patch.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=226850&d=1414697342 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 ( talk) 22:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
They have a sunwheel patch.
[depreciated URL] liveleak /view?i=adf_1413145576&comments=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 ( talk) 21:35, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/s/t/starshinazapasa/alia.jpg
http://www.globalterrorwatch.ch/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Battalion-Aliya.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 ( talk) 21:42, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
To the anon IP who keeps adding a link to the photo gallery from Vkontakte [1] - from your edit summary it appears you've misunderstood my point. Yes, I know Vkontakte is the Russian version of Facebook. But that is precisely why it's not encyclopedic and why it's not appropriate to include a link here. When I said "Not Facebook" I did NOT mean "it's not Facebook so we can't put it here". What I meant is "Wikipedia is not Facebook, or Vkontakte, so we can't put it here. It's an encyclopedia not a social networking site". See WP:NOTFACEBOOK. Volunteer Marek 04:40, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
Borodai says that "Novorossia" is a dead concept and rebels themselves on the ground refer to the "Armed Forces of the Donetsk People's Republic", not the "NAF" - is this original research at this point to attribute this group as a functioning unit? It certainly is not centralized. -- LeVivsky ( ಠ_ಠ) 02:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
"Aliyah" battalion was an immigrant battalion used by the Israeli army for settlement patrol. Later it began a registered non-profit association dedicated to direct Russian-speakers in Israel's attention to fight againt "terrorism and violence" (See Russian Wikipedia article: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BE%D0%BD_%C2%AB%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%8F%C2%BB). It was disbanded around 2002.
A person called "Avigdor Eskin" (Авигдор Эскин) strolls around telling that he is the establisher of this organization, which is not true. No Israelis are fighting in Donetsk and there is not evidence to establish that they call themselves "Aliyah" or acting on behalf of the Israeli government. The patch depicted in the pictures article is a patch of the IDF and was not seen in Ukraine whatsoever. The picture of the patch is from Israel and not a recent one.
Israeli Russian-speaking Channel 9 article of this "Aliyah Battalion". http://9tv.co.il/news/2014/06/02/177085.html Note the comments speaking of it being not true. Israel's ambassador to Ukraine, Reuven Din-El, has said that "No Israelis are fighting in Ukraine" http://evreiskiy.kiev.ua/posol-izrailja-v-ukraine-batalon-alija-13365.html
Please erase that for it is not true. 12:52, 4 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moto53 ( talk • contribs)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There is this IP (94.45.129.180) that is constantly deleting my contributions about Essence of Time armed division (in Vostok) and Bryanca SSSR (in Prizrak). I'm now here on Wikipedia, there is a way to stop him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhorg ( talk • contribs) 00:36, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
I made this revert because it was referenced from a clearly non-neutral source. Unfortunately Ukraine is at an information war, so statements about opponents must be carefully filtered in wikipedia. Staszek Lem ( talk) 17:35, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
The reason why I reverted it is because the flags on the side are for the most notable battalions and brigades. The RNU Volunteer Corps have neither been notable enough or big in size to just put that swastika-having flag in the middle of all the other flags. Show me at least two recent RS about the RNU being active in the fighting for Donetsk Airport or Debaltseve. If not, then you're showing me that you just want it there so that people can see that there are neo-nazis in the militias. No kidding, there's all sorts of volunteers in it ranging from communists to monarchists. SkoraPobeda ( talk) 14:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
I reviewed the coverage for RNU, bout in refs and in google. Here are my two major findings:
Therefore I would agree with deletion per WP:NOR until better evidence.
That said, there is indeed the evidence that RNU, Dugin's, and others are volunteering in Donbas. But they are included in other formations, either individually or as companies, but not as a major military unit worth notice. This may be a subject of another article, about Russian volunteers in Donbas. Do we have any? Staszek Lem ( talk) 19:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Now, about " so that people can see that there are neo-nazis in the militias". As it is, there is nothing wrong with this. There is plenty of noise that there are neo-nazis on the Ukrainian side. Same goes with Russian side, right? In any revolution, civil war, etc., thugs and extremists are only happy to flex muscle and are welcome until victory and then quietly gotten rid of not to mar an image of the "Victorious Truth and Justice". Staszek Lem ( talk) 19:25, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
https://pp.vk.me/c625724/v625724290/358aa/_1Lng03SCc4.jpg
207.35.219.34 ( talk) 20:28, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
I've reverted SkoraPobeda's latest changes for a few reasons, but most prominently because we're now facing WP:OR issues surrounding the articles. We all know that the project folded at the beginning of May, but the content is conflating various militias under that umbrella as if it were still an ongoing project.
Before any more changes are made, I think we need to treat this (and other articles) as historical and move any relevant content that might be lost to existing articles for DPR, LPR, etc. If the content is not appropriate to other articles, it may be time to consider some form of 'after' Novorossiya article. I'm at a loss as to how to do this without original research as to an appropriate WP:TITLE. Any thoughts/comments from other editors? -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 00:55, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Why somebody deleted ranks of Pro-Russian forces? I've posted yesterday all ranks which are in use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.56.3 ( talk) 16:54, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Needs to be added to the article.
http://i59.tinypic.com/118hij4.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/dpemvl.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/25q3qyo.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.35.219.34 ( talk) 15:30, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
https://twitter.com/onlinemagazin/status/556034738247720960
207.35.219.34 ( talk) 22:33, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
at 3:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7bvEE9dbr4w
207.35.219.34 ( talk) 21:18, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMPWDRwKHKs
216.165.210.167 ( talk) 13:51, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Currently, there is an unresolved problem that is quite annoying. Flags such as the Donbass People's Militia, Somalia Battalion and some insignias have been deleted over licensing issues. MrPenguin20's Somalia Battalion flag was nominated for deletion over the "self|cc-by-sa-4.0" license. I tried preventing it from getting deleted by placing the "PD-textlogo" in its place, only to still have it deleted regardless. The problem here is that we need Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics licenses for the sake of identifying flags and insignias of various factions. "PD-UA-exempt" doesn't apply since they are not a part of Ukraine. Also, I couldn't find any copyright laws on the DPR's website so far either [3]. Iryna Harpy, perhaps you can help us find a way to create at least some temporary exempt license, to prevent any more of these unnecessary deletions. SkoraPobeda ( talk) 20:40, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
It is no longer correct to suggest that official Russian involvement in only suspected. Even Putin now admits Russian armed forces involvement - though it was never actually in doubt. Royalcourtier ( talk) 00:44, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Looking at the article, it seems to be a lot of original research. "Novorossia" doesn't exist and never really did. The article mostly lists different militia groups that operate under different commands. Without a central command structure, how can this article, quite flatly, pretend there is a "United Armed Forces of Novorossiya"? If they are disunited and decentralized and not operating under the name 'Novorossiya'? I think at the minimum the article should be renamed 'Pro-Russian militant groups in Ukraine' or something, because it's mostly just a fan fiction. --BLACK FUTURE ( tlk2meh) 21:08, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: Suggested Move unopposed. clarified move to singular Separatist forces of the War in Donbass (non-admin closure) — Andy W. ( talk · ctb) 21:11, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
United Armed Forces of Novorossiya → Separatists forces of the War in Donbass – WP:common name and common sense. No majority of independent, reliable English-language source does refere to the armed forces described in this article as "United Armed Forces of Novorossiya" and even before they hardly did but rather called them "separatists", "pro-Russian rebels" etc. The Novorossiya (confederation) project has been put on hold for more than a year now and the armed forces described in this article do not fight for (a) "Novorossiya" (anymore). (As far as I know the armed forces described in this article do not call themselves "United Armed Forces of Novorossiya" (anymore).) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:11, 4 August 2016 (UTC) --See relisting comment — Andy W. ( talk · ctb) 20:48, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
The " Structure" section doesn't say anything about how organization. It just lists a bunch of different military groups.... in a way that makes it look these groups don't coordinate anything.... Is there a central command who tells these groups what to do?
The section should look (ideally) like FARC#Organization and structure. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:53, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
The current " Structure" section lists a bunch of different military groups. Is this list currently up to date? An Ukrainian military spokesman today spoke of there being a separatists "9th Regiment" ( Novoazovsk), and another "7th Brigade" ( Debaltseve). None of which is currently mentioned in this Wikipedia article.... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:01, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for this update SkoraPobeda. It gives insight in what is going on in Donbass (the Donetsk People's Republic appears to be better organised then in which 2014). I am also not a fan of using Russian or Ukrainian language sources, which would be considered non-RS. The only reason I put information in the article by the The Ukrainian Week is that without information about the command structure of these forces it would look like there is no coordination of these forces. Without coordination logic dictates that they should have been overrun by the Ukrainian army a long time ago. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 21:37, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
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There is no forml novorossiya today. The article must be correctd accordingly. Also the title is false because polls consistently show that the majority is for staying within ukraine.- üser:Altenmann >t 19:25, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
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"Although the Russian government often denies direct involvement stating that their soldiers were there voluntarily and not under orders, some of them were detained riding their combat vehicles with documents proving their origin in Russian armed forces."
Russia did not deny their origin in the Russian armed forces. The sentence could be flipped: Although some of them [the soldiers] were detained riding their combat vehicles with documents proving their origin in Russian armed forces, the Russian government often denies direct involvement stating that their soldiers were there voluntarily and not under orders. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.174.227.118 ( talk) 22:08, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 ( talk) 22:12, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
Russian separatist forces in Donbas → Separatist forces in Donbas
Today I had moved the title Russian separatist forces in Donbas to Separatist forces in Donbas - removing a single word. Through the revision and suggestion of Mikehawk10, this discussion will be taken here.
As you can may notice in prior discussions above, there was an agreed upon Requested move 4 August 2016, which changed the title from United Armed Forces of Novorossiya → Separatists forces of the War in Donbass.
The most recent title changes began on April 1, 2021: a new user named Falloutguy 1914 (who apparently has been blocked since August) unanimously moved the page to Separatist forces in Donbass. Then on April 5th, they moved it to Russian Separatist forces in Donbass - once again without any consensus. Then on April 14th, Mzajac changed it to Russian separatist forces in Donbas since most Wikipedia entries of the word Donbass had been changed to the Ukrainian spelling of Donbas. (Although this change still should not affect terms such as Donbass People's Militia since it's based on the Russian spelling, not Ukrainian one.)
However, the newer title Russian separatist forces is still misleading. My reasoning for this is because ever since the beginning of the conflict, the militias of the DPR and LPR have been mostly comprised of locals. Yes there are Russian volunteers and covert Russian assistance, though this does not in any way suggest that all of them are from Russia. They are Russian speaking, yes. Though they are local Ukrainian citizens that have Russian or Ukrainian ethnic backgrounds who predominantly speak Russian. By naming this article Separatist forces in Donbas, it makes it more NPOV and accurate; since the DPR and LPR forces are most commonly known as separatists. They might be occasionally called "Russian-backed separatists", but regardless, they are just separatists and not Russian separatists. —
SkoraPobeda (
talk)
19:01, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
I have changed my focused reasoning for the move since it came from an original research standpoint, which I admit may not have been the best suggestion for it. However, I can't emphasize enough that most reliable sources still call them either Russian-backed separatists or pro-Russian separatists. There appears to be very few examples of them being called Russian separatists. Sources from this year - 1 2 3 4 5 I still propose my suggested move of shortening the title to Separatist forces in Donbas, or having a new suggested title altogether. — SkoraPobeda ( talk) 05:41, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
A small group of editors have recently deleted content about far-right Russian nationalists from this article and related articles. Please see the discussion here. ~ Asarlaí 17:50, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
I restored the information about Alexander "de Krog" Matyushin being a neo-Nazi and member of Russkiy Obraz. He has a totenkopf tattoo, was a member of NBP and ESM, head of Russkiy Obraz in Donetsk, and described himself as an "Orthodox fascist." Please let me know if you believe he was not a neo-Nazi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Disconnected Phrases ( talk • contribs) 05:39, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
(from Donetsk People's Republic & Right-wing nationalism)
According to the Italian newspaper la Repubblica, well-known Italian neo-fascist Andrea Palmeri (former member of the far-right New Force party) has been fighting for the Donetsk People's Republic since 2014 and was hailed by Gubarev as a "real fascist" when he joined the DNR militias. [1] Professor Anton Shekhovtsov, an expert on far-right movement in Russia and abroad, reported in 2014 that Polish neo-fascist group "Falanga", Italian far-right group "Millennium" and French Eurasianists had also joined the Donbas separatists. [2] [3] [4]
An article in Dissent noted that "despite their neo-Stalinist paraphernalia, many of the Russian-speaking nationalists Russia supports in the Donbass are just as right-wing as their counterparts from the Azov Battalion". [5]
In April 2022, news outlets noted that a video posted on Donetsk People's Republic's website showed Denis Pushilin awarding a medal to Lieutenant Roman Vorobyov ( Somalia Battalion), while Vorobyov was wearing patches affiliated with neo-Nazism: the Totenkopf used by the 3rd SS Panzer Division, and the valknut. However, the video did not show Vorobyov getting his medal when it was posted on Pushilin's website. [6] [7]
in addition, link the articles " Far-right politics in Ukraine & Pro-Russian separatism" and " Donetsk People's Republic & Right-wing nationalism" on the right-wing nationalism section here.
187.39.133.201 ( talk) 16:22, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
It's frustrating that we have to do this again so soon. Mzajac, it is confusing that you tell me to bring the discussion here, while you unilaterally changed the title of the article last year without any backed discussion. Despite my last requested move being overlooked, this time I thought my new move was going to be neutral enough to where nobody would oppose (By adding just one word).
So let me ask you then, what is the issue with calling them Pro-Russian separatists? Where are the sources that directly call them Russian separatists? They are mostly referred to as pro-Russians by most reliable sources. Al Jazeera 1, Al Jazeera 2, NPR , NBC. There was only one example I could find where they are called Russian-separatist authorities, and yet in their title they still called them Pro-Russian separatists... The Guardian
Another title idea might be Russian-backed separatist forces in Donbas? (Like TFSA, Turkish-backed Free Syrian Army in the Syrian conflict.) SkoraPobeda ( talk) 22:39, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Source, please?If I google "the pro-Russian separatists" (article "the" is important), I get 58.500 results. Among them, I get Human Rights Watch [17], 3+ articles by Amnesty International (e.g. [18]), 8+ articles by the New York Times (e.g. [19]), 20+ articles by BBC (e.g. [20]), Foreign Affairs [21]. "Pro-Russian separatists" is also used in the officials documents of the EU (e.g. [22]). If I google "the Russian separatists" basically I get Wikipedia articles, plus a lot of quora.com entries and little more: 61 results overall, and among them only a couple of BBC (e.g. [23]), one Deutsche Welle [24] and one NYT [25]. So "Russian separatists" is basically a mistake and we should correct it. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 19:13, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
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im going to start a discussion about this here.
so, due to the varyag, rusich and svarozhich units having either been named after neo-Nazi units (varyag) or having Slavic swastikas on their badges (and links to neo-Nazi extremism, such as rusich and svarozhich), i think its appropriate to put them as such, furthermore, the use of extremist also makes sense. the rule, as far as i saw, mainly applies to BLP (biographies of living people), not to battalions or divisions, and considering what is mentioned in the section, using "extremist" should apply on this case, any opinions on that?
ZoopyCat ( talk) 22:18, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
![]() | It was proposed in this section that
Russian separatist forces in Donbas be
renamed and moved to
Pro-Russian separatist forces in Donbas.
result: Move logs:
source title ·
target title
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Russian separatist forces in Donbas → Pro-Russian separatist forces in Donbas – "Pro-Russian" is BY FAR more common in all reliable sources (see my comment here above at 19:13, 5 August 2022) and is also more precise, because the separatists are not necessarily Russian, but are always pro-Russia. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 22:05, 13 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky ( talk) 03:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky ( talk) 10:43, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
"they are not truly Ukrainians, they are foreign enemies!", which is a quote of yours from above that is seemingly tongue-in-cheek, i.e. accusing the opposition of holding this viewpoint, which implies that you yourself hold the opposite viewpoint. It can be presumed from this quote that you personally hold the opinion that the citizens of the DPR and LPR should be labelled as "Ukrainians, from inside Ukraine", presumably as some kind of "pro-Russian dissidents in Ukraine", to be precise.
It can be presumed from this quote that you personally hold the opinion that the citizens of the DPR and LPR should be labelled as "Ukrainians, from inside Ukraine". No, it can't. I argued that their nationality and/or ethnicity are irrelevant for the purposes of deciding the title of this article. Political goals ("pro-Russian separatist...") and military activities ("...forces in Donbas") are sufficient for identifying the subject. This is the denomination RS use, and so should we. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 14:09, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
We have WP:CRITERIA precisely to avoid unfettered NNPOV speculations about the authentic nature of the subject ("they are not truly Ukrainians, they are foreign enemies!").
oppose. Per common name, is not clear. "Common name" is the reason given by those who support the requested move. Did you mean "support" and wrote "oppose" by mistake? If that's not the case, and you meant what you wrote, could you please explain why you believe that "Russian separatist forces" is the WP:COMMONNAME of the subject of the article? If you don't explain your views, the closer will not know if and how to take them into account. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 14:42, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
I voted to call them Russian supported. But that's not an option here. If you vote "oppose", you get "Russian separatist forces". To have "Russian-backed separatists" you'll have to open another RM
Most of the sources cited on the page calling them "Pro-Russian separatists" are from 2014. Sources continue to call them "pro-Russian". A few examples from 2022: Politico, Reuters, Guardian, Al Jazeera, EJIL_Talk!, Euractiv, Washington Post, ABC, NBC. Nobody calls them "Russian separatists".
I was under the impression that Western media tended (before February 2022) to refer to these people as "Russian-backed separatists". I'm okay with this descriptor, although I oppose "pro-Russian", since that implies that they aren't Russians themselves. Jargo Nautilus ( talk) 09:07, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
As I've suggested in some of my comments above, the descriptor "Russian" can refer to two main things. Either, it refers to the links between the separatists and the Russian government (i.e. "the Kremlin", "the Russian Federation", etc.), or it refers to the ethnic (cultural), racial, genetic, linguistic, or national (self-identification) identity of the separatists. Whilst it might be somewhat difficult to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that these separatists are inextricably linked to the Russian government, I believe that it's a lot easier to prove that these people are ethnic-Russians. So, they can still be described as "Russian" either way, regardless of whether they have proven links to the Russian government or not. Jargo Nautilus ( talk) 10:02, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
Evidence suggests that not all "citizens" of the DPR and the LPR actually identify as Russians. 1 It's pretty unclear as to what "DPR and LPR citizenship" even is. I'm just using that term as a shorthand for people who are ruled by the DPR and LPR governments. A lot of DPR and LPR residents seem to actually be either Ukrainian citizens or Russian citizens. And if there's such a thing as DPR and LPR citizenship, then I think it isn't recognised by the international community, except for maybe by Russia and Russia's proxies elsewhere. Jargo Nautilus ( talk) 10:14, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
First, I would like to add that since my initial comments, I didn't realize it would turn into this large discussion/debate. A main issue with the whole title for me is that it suggests that they are from Russia. Sure, they can identify as Russian and have definite Russian military assistance now. But as far as the DPR 1st Army Corps and LPR 2nd Army Corps goes, these are separatist military formations that went from being militias in 2014-2015 to becoming a regular ground forces based off of the Russian military. (Even though they aren't actually a part of the Russian Ground Forces.) Perhaps you are right Jargo, maybe the title should be renamed something closer to "Russian-backed separatist forces in Donbas", since that would be an accurate assessment of them as well. As I stated back in May, in the Syrian war, the Turkish-backed Free Syrian Army (TFSA) is generalized with that name, despite their official name being the Syrian National Army (SNA). The topic at hand here is two separatist military formations being generalized to something we can all agree on. Yet as @ Gitz6666: was saying, RS tends to call these armed groups as pro-Russians. That's just how they've been called since 2014 to this day. Prior to Falloutguy 1914's unilateral move on April 5, 2021 of turning the title from Separatist forces in Donbas to Russian separatist forces in Donbas, there were no problems over what to name the title for years. One word - 'Russian' - was able to change a whole meaning. And the same goes now with the word 'Pro'. This is definitely some next level debate over the use and addition of one single word.
I also would like to bring up a few quotes said by Jargo earlier: "The war is genocidal by nature, and, contrary to Russian claims, the genocide is mainly being conducted by the Russians, not by the Ukrainians." and "Conversely, how many Donbas civilians did Ukraine kill between April 2014 and February 2022? Civilians, not combatants. Not many, I suspect?"
I have been following Ukraine's crisis since November 2013 (and yes, my user profile doesn't hide what my views are). My mom in fact was lucky enough to visit her relatives in the Donetsk region prior to the war - in August 2013. Imagine, she landed in Donetsk Airport a whole year before it was destroyed, who would have thought back then? Life was stable and nobody cared whether you were Russian or Ukrainian, at least in Eastern Ukraine that is. In the Western Ukrainian regions, they never liked Russians or the entire Soviet period despite gaining plenty of new territory through their independence, this is a fact. Now with this war, everything has been portrayed very different by each side. The West and Ukraine share the same narratives, they go hand-in-hand all the time. Many fellow editors who live in America or Canada with Ukrainian roots will see things only from their side (and understandably so, since they probably have relatives who are in the military with their lives at stake). The non-RS perspective by the separatists and Russian media is the one that typically gets ignored the most. However, since my family and a few acquaintances are still there in Donbas, they have had first-hand experience and of course try to keep certain details to a minimum. What is clear is that despite my family being under Ukrainian control all these years, the Ukrainian government did not and still does not care about the people of Donbas. They have not paid them their salaries for half a year prior to Russia's invasion (at least in my mom's town). To make matter worse, outside their town is currently under the control of a neo-Nazi Right Sector paramilitary known as Ukrainian Volunteer Corps. And it is a fact that Ukraine's government uses them, along with Azov, Kraken Regiments and many others to not only fight the war, but to punish civilians. Both in separatist/Russian and Ukrainian controlled territory. Jargo, civilians in Donbas have been shelled non-stop by Ukraine for 8 years now. This has not been reported by the RS media. Donetsk and Gorlovka/Horlivka have been hit the hardest all this time. You can look up the Anna Tuv Story to get a glimpse of it. Over a thousand civilians died by Ukrainian shelling (mostly by neo-Nazi paramilitary groups, not standard Ukrainian Army) from 2015-2022, that is for sure. I'm sure DPR/LPR and Russian sources would put the estimate higher. Ukrainian war crimes are hidden under the blanket excuse that "Russia did it", and so nobody bothers to investigate it because Western sources take Ukrainian spokesmen at face value every time. Ukrainian false flag attacks have occurred many times since Russia's invasion. And Mariupol was a siege because the major neo-Nazi groups were holding the civilians as human shields, when they tried escaping, they were killed by Azov. This is confirmed by independent Telegram videos and by certain Western journalists who interviewed dozens of civilians in Donbas, and they become completely vilified for disagreeing with the official narrative. These men are Graham Phillips and Patrick Lancaster. With time, their brave journalism will be acknowledged. For now, we get contradictory media statements on how for example "Ukraine launched a successful counter-offensive in Kherson" only for it to be a total disaster and the media tries to quietly shift gears. Most people have little to no knowledge of how this conflict was built up in 2013-14, especially with US State Department involvement in regime change. SkoraPobeda ( talk) 08:42, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
I will get back to you on these comments later: please, do it in their user talk page. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 09:40, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Why would you even call them separatists? Separatists are by definition trying to set up an independent state. While so-called LPR/DPR were waiting to be annexed by Russia from the very start. I thought that would be obvious if not in 2014, then at least after Feb 24, 2022. We don't call /info/en/?search=Finnish_Democratic_Republic separatists, do we? Lvoloshyn ( talk) 07:21, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
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Link of source No. 63 is outdated. Article has been moved to: https://tass.com/world/739790 Catastropeia ( talk) 22:05, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
The militias were financed, armed and controlled by Russia. The article should describe the connections. Some local leaders were killed. Xx236 ( talk) 10:34, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
“The militias were responsible for shooting down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in July 2014, but the separatist leaders denied it.[8]”
The source cited here still stands as (albeit reasonable) conjecture re: the claim that the militias were responsible. 83.137.6.235 ( talk) 15:26, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
Shouldn't we move this article to Donetsk and Luhansk People's Militias? No RS calls these forces "Russian people's militias in Ukraine", while "Donetsk and Luhansk People's Militias" is supported by RSs [44] [45] [46]. That title is also more NPOV because it neither assumes that these forces are "Russian" (the annexation of Luhansk and Donetsk is not internationally recognised) nor that they are "in Ukraine" (which Russia and their allies deny). Finally, "Donetsk and Luhansk People's Militias" corresponds to the official name of these forces, and it's more simple, precise and recognizable to readers. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 01:20, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Video shared by Storyful shows a soldier, named as Lieutenant Roman Vorobyov from the "Somalia" motorized rifle battalion, receiving the "St. George's Cross II" award while wearing far-right insignia.
The head of the breakaway Donetsk People's Republic in Ukraine has been seen in a video awarding a medal to a fighter ... Published on April 3 through the Russia-backed republic's website, the footage also shows the fighter wearing symbols used by neo-Nazis. [...] the video posted on Pushilin's official website did not show Vorobyov receiving his medal
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
For an article on "Donbass People's Militia", this article looks remarkably like a collection of weapons? Is the article a weapons manual? See what Wikipedia is not, per is not indiscriminate collection of lists, cruft, etc. The entire "Equipment" subsection is three times the length of the subject of the title and detracts from the content. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 00:49, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
All sources for the relevant section are Russian yellow press or independent propaganda sites (i.e., ultimately, self-published). Reliable sources are needed, particularly when speculating on the nationality of volunteers who have joined the separatists. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 10:36, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Both Kiev & Moscow sources reported on September 16 the creation of the "United Armed Forces of Novorossiya", so I think that the article should be renamed and expanded to the rest of Lugansk battallions (Zarya, for example).-- HC PUNXKID 22:51, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
As Iryna Harpy mentioned, the article is getting too lengthy due to the equipment section. Now that the militias merged into a single group, we should move the section into a new page called "List of equipment of the United Armed Forces of Novorossiya". SkoraPobeda ( talk) 14:14, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Don't know who commands it. They have a bat patch.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=226850&d=1414697342 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 ( talk) 22:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
They have a sunwheel patch.
[depreciated URL] liveleak /view?i=adf_1413145576&comments=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 ( talk) 21:35, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/s/t/starshinazapasa/alia.jpg
http://www.globalterrorwatch.ch/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Battalion-Aliya.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 ( talk) 21:42, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
To the anon IP who keeps adding a link to the photo gallery from Vkontakte [1] - from your edit summary it appears you've misunderstood my point. Yes, I know Vkontakte is the Russian version of Facebook. But that is precisely why it's not encyclopedic and why it's not appropriate to include a link here. When I said "Not Facebook" I did NOT mean "it's not Facebook so we can't put it here". What I meant is "Wikipedia is not Facebook, or Vkontakte, so we can't put it here. It's an encyclopedia not a social networking site". See WP:NOTFACEBOOK. Volunteer Marek 04:40, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
Borodai says that "Novorossia" is a dead concept and rebels themselves on the ground refer to the "Armed Forces of the Donetsk People's Republic", not the "NAF" - is this original research at this point to attribute this group as a functioning unit? It certainly is not centralized. -- LeVivsky ( ಠ_ಠ) 02:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
"Aliyah" battalion was an immigrant battalion used by the Israeli army for settlement patrol. Later it began a registered non-profit association dedicated to direct Russian-speakers in Israel's attention to fight againt "terrorism and violence" (See Russian Wikipedia article: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BE%D0%BD_%C2%AB%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%8F%C2%BB). It was disbanded around 2002.
A person called "Avigdor Eskin" (Авигдор Эскин) strolls around telling that he is the establisher of this organization, which is not true. No Israelis are fighting in Donetsk and there is not evidence to establish that they call themselves "Aliyah" or acting on behalf of the Israeli government. The patch depicted in the pictures article is a patch of the IDF and was not seen in Ukraine whatsoever. The picture of the patch is from Israel and not a recent one.
Israeli Russian-speaking Channel 9 article of this "Aliyah Battalion". http://9tv.co.il/news/2014/06/02/177085.html Note the comments speaking of it being not true. Israel's ambassador to Ukraine, Reuven Din-El, has said that "No Israelis are fighting in Ukraine" http://evreiskiy.kiev.ua/posol-izrailja-v-ukraine-batalon-alija-13365.html
Please erase that for it is not true. 12:52, 4 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moto53 ( talk • contribs)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There is this IP (94.45.129.180) that is constantly deleting my contributions about Essence of Time armed division (in Vostok) and Bryanca SSSR (in Prizrak). I'm now here on Wikipedia, there is a way to stop him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhorg ( talk • contribs) 00:36, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
I made this revert because it was referenced from a clearly non-neutral source. Unfortunately Ukraine is at an information war, so statements about opponents must be carefully filtered in wikipedia. Staszek Lem ( talk) 17:35, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
The reason why I reverted it is because the flags on the side are for the most notable battalions and brigades. The RNU Volunteer Corps have neither been notable enough or big in size to just put that swastika-having flag in the middle of all the other flags. Show me at least two recent RS about the RNU being active in the fighting for Donetsk Airport or Debaltseve. If not, then you're showing me that you just want it there so that people can see that there are neo-nazis in the militias. No kidding, there's all sorts of volunteers in it ranging from communists to monarchists. SkoraPobeda ( talk) 14:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
I reviewed the coverage for RNU, bout in refs and in google. Here are my two major findings:
Therefore I would agree with deletion per WP:NOR until better evidence.
That said, there is indeed the evidence that RNU, Dugin's, and others are volunteering in Donbas. But they are included in other formations, either individually or as companies, but not as a major military unit worth notice. This may be a subject of another article, about Russian volunteers in Donbas. Do we have any? Staszek Lem ( talk) 19:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Now, about " so that people can see that there are neo-nazis in the militias". As it is, there is nothing wrong with this. There is plenty of noise that there are neo-nazis on the Ukrainian side. Same goes with Russian side, right? In any revolution, civil war, etc., thugs and extremists are only happy to flex muscle and are welcome until victory and then quietly gotten rid of not to mar an image of the "Victorious Truth and Justice". Staszek Lem ( talk) 19:25, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
https://pp.vk.me/c625724/v625724290/358aa/_1Lng03SCc4.jpg
207.35.219.34 ( talk) 20:28, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
I've reverted SkoraPobeda's latest changes for a few reasons, but most prominently because we're now facing WP:OR issues surrounding the articles. We all know that the project folded at the beginning of May, but the content is conflating various militias under that umbrella as if it were still an ongoing project.
Before any more changes are made, I think we need to treat this (and other articles) as historical and move any relevant content that might be lost to existing articles for DPR, LPR, etc. If the content is not appropriate to other articles, it may be time to consider some form of 'after' Novorossiya article. I'm at a loss as to how to do this without original research as to an appropriate WP:TITLE. Any thoughts/comments from other editors? -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 00:55, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Why somebody deleted ranks of Pro-Russian forces? I've posted yesterday all ranks which are in use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.56.3 ( talk) 16:54, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Needs to be added to the article.
http://i59.tinypic.com/118hij4.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/dpemvl.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/25q3qyo.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.35.219.34 ( talk) 15:30, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
https://twitter.com/onlinemagazin/status/556034738247720960
207.35.219.34 ( talk) 22:33, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
at 3:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7bvEE9dbr4w
207.35.219.34 ( talk) 21:18, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMPWDRwKHKs
216.165.210.167 ( talk) 13:51, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Currently, there is an unresolved problem that is quite annoying. Flags such as the Donbass People's Militia, Somalia Battalion and some insignias have been deleted over licensing issues. MrPenguin20's Somalia Battalion flag was nominated for deletion over the "self|cc-by-sa-4.0" license. I tried preventing it from getting deleted by placing the "PD-textlogo" in its place, only to still have it deleted regardless. The problem here is that we need Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics licenses for the sake of identifying flags and insignias of various factions. "PD-UA-exempt" doesn't apply since they are not a part of Ukraine. Also, I couldn't find any copyright laws on the DPR's website so far either [3]. Iryna Harpy, perhaps you can help us find a way to create at least some temporary exempt license, to prevent any more of these unnecessary deletions. SkoraPobeda ( talk) 20:40, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
It is no longer correct to suggest that official Russian involvement in only suspected. Even Putin now admits Russian armed forces involvement - though it was never actually in doubt. Royalcourtier ( talk) 00:44, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Looking at the article, it seems to be a lot of original research. "Novorossia" doesn't exist and never really did. The article mostly lists different militia groups that operate under different commands. Without a central command structure, how can this article, quite flatly, pretend there is a "United Armed Forces of Novorossiya"? If they are disunited and decentralized and not operating under the name 'Novorossiya'? I think at the minimum the article should be renamed 'Pro-Russian militant groups in Ukraine' or something, because it's mostly just a fan fiction. --BLACK FUTURE ( tlk2meh) 21:08, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: Suggested Move unopposed. clarified move to singular Separatist forces of the War in Donbass (non-admin closure) — Andy W. ( talk · ctb) 21:11, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
United Armed Forces of Novorossiya → Separatists forces of the War in Donbass – WP:common name and common sense. No majority of independent, reliable English-language source does refere to the armed forces described in this article as "United Armed Forces of Novorossiya" and even before they hardly did but rather called them "separatists", "pro-Russian rebels" etc. The Novorossiya (confederation) project has been put on hold for more than a year now and the armed forces described in this article do not fight for (a) "Novorossiya" (anymore). (As far as I know the armed forces described in this article do not call themselves "United Armed Forces of Novorossiya" (anymore).) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:11, 4 August 2016 (UTC) --See relisting comment — Andy W. ( talk · ctb) 20:48, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
The " Structure" section doesn't say anything about how organization. It just lists a bunch of different military groups.... in a way that makes it look these groups don't coordinate anything.... Is there a central command who tells these groups what to do?
The section should look (ideally) like FARC#Organization and structure. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:53, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
The current " Structure" section lists a bunch of different military groups. Is this list currently up to date? An Ukrainian military spokesman today spoke of there being a separatists "9th Regiment" ( Novoazovsk), and another "7th Brigade" ( Debaltseve). None of which is currently mentioned in this Wikipedia article.... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:01, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for this update SkoraPobeda. It gives insight in what is going on in Donbass (the Donetsk People's Republic appears to be better organised then in which 2014). I am also not a fan of using Russian or Ukrainian language sources, which would be considered non-RS. The only reason I put information in the article by the The Ukrainian Week is that without information about the command structure of these forces it would look like there is no coordination of these forces. Without coordination logic dictates that they should have been overrun by the Ukrainian army a long time ago. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 21:37, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
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There is no forml novorossiya today. The article must be correctd accordingly. Also the title is false because polls consistently show that the majority is for staying within ukraine.- üser:Altenmann >t 19:25, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
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"Although the Russian government often denies direct involvement stating that their soldiers were there voluntarily and not under orders, some of them were detained riding their combat vehicles with documents proving their origin in Russian armed forces."
Russia did not deny their origin in the Russian armed forces. The sentence could be flipped: Although some of them [the soldiers] were detained riding their combat vehicles with documents proving their origin in Russian armed forces, the Russian government often denies direct involvement stating that their soldiers were there voluntarily and not under orders. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.174.227.118 ( talk) 22:08, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 ( talk) 22:12, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
Russian separatist forces in Donbas → Separatist forces in Donbas
Today I had moved the title Russian separatist forces in Donbas to Separatist forces in Donbas - removing a single word. Through the revision and suggestion of Mikehawk10, this discussion will be taken here.
As you can may notice in prior discussions above, there was an agreed upon Requested move 4 August 2016, which changed the title from United Armed Forces of Novorossiya → Separatists forces of the War in Donbass.
The most recent title changes began on April 1, 2021: a new user named Falloutguy 1914 (who apparently has been blocked since August) unanimously moved the page to Separatist forces in Donbass. Then on April 5th, they moved it to Russian Separatist forces in Donbass - once again without any consensus. Then on April 14th, Mzajac changed it to Russian separatist forces in Donbas since most Wikipedia entries of the word Donbass had been changed to the Ukrainian spelling of Donbas. (Although this change still should not affect terms such as Donbass People's Militia since it's based on the Russian spelling, not Ukrainian one.)
However, the newer title Russian separatist forces is still misleading. My reasoning for this is because ever since the beginning of the conflict, the militias of the DPR and LPR have been mostly comprised of locals. Yes there are Russian volunteers and covert Russian assistance, though this does not in any way suggest that all of them are from Russia. They are Russian speaking, yes. Though they are local Ukrainian citizens that have Russian or Ukrainian ethnic backgrounds who predominantly speak Russian. By naming this article Separatist forces in Donbas, it makes it more NPOV and accurate; since the DPR and LPR forces are most commonly known as separatists. They might be occasionally called "Russian-backed separatists", but regardless, they are just separatists and not Russian separatists. —
SkoraPobeda (
talk)
19:01, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
I have changed my focused reasoning for the move since it came from an original research standpoint, which I admit may not have been the best suggestion for it. However, I can't emphasize enough that most reliable sources still call them either Russian-backed separatists or pro-Russian separatists. There appears to be very few examples of them being called Russian separatists. Sources from this year - 1 2 3 4 5 I still propose my suggested move of shortening the title to Separatist forces in Donbas, or having a new suggested title altogether. — SkoraPobeda ( talk) 05:41, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
A small group of editors have recently deleted content about far-right Russian nationalists from this article and related articles. Please see the discussion here. ~ Asarlaí 17:50, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
I restored the information about Alexander "de Krog" Matyushin being a neo-Nazi and member of Russkiy Obraz. He has a totenkopf tattoo, was a member of NBP and ESM, head of Russkiy Obraz in Donetsk, and described himself as an "Orthodox fascist." Please let me know if you believe he was not a neo-Nazi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Disconnected Phrases ( talk • contribs) 05:39, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
(from Donetsk People's Republic & Right-wing nationalism)
According to the Italian newspaper la Repubblica, well-known Italian neo-fascist Andrea Palmeri (former member of the far-right New Force party) has been fighting for the Donetsk People's Republic since 2014 and was hailed by Gubarev as a "real fascist" when he joined the DNR militias. [1] Professor Anton Shekhovtsov, an expert on far-right movement in Russia and abroad, reported in 2014 that Polish neo-fascist group "Falanga", Italian far-right group "Millennium" and French Eurasianists had also joined the Donbas separatists. [2] [3] [4]
An article in Dissent noted that "despite their neo-Stalinist paraphernalia, many of the Russian-speaking nationalists Russia supports in the Donbass are just as right-wing as their counterparts from the Azov Battalion". [5]
In April 2022, news outlets noted that a video posted on Donetsk People's Republic's website showed Denis Pushilin awarding a medal to Lieutenant Roman Vorobyov ( Somalia Battalion), while Vorobyov was wearing patches affiliated with neo-Nazism: the Totenkopf used by the 3rd SS Panzer Division, and the valknut. However, the video did not show Vorobyov getting his medal when it was posted on Pushilin's website. [6] [7]
in addition, link the articles " Far-right politics in Ukraine & Pro-Russian separatism" and " Donetsk People's Republic & Right-wing nationalism" on the right-wing nationalism section here.
187.39.133.201 ( talk) 16:22, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
It's frustrating that we have to do this again so soon. Mzajac, it is confusing that you tell me to bring the discussion here, while you unilaterally changed the title of the article last year without any backed discussion. Despite my last requested move being overlooked, this time I thought my new move was going to be neutral enough to where nobody would oppose (By adding just one word).
So let me ask you then, what is the issue with calling them Pro-Russian separatists? Where are the sources that directly call them Russian separatists? They are mostly referred to as pro-Russians by most reliable sources. Al Jazeera 1, Al Jazeera 2, NPR , NBC. There was only one example I could find where they are called Russian-separatist authorities, and yet in their title they still called them Pro-Russian separatists... The Guardian
Another title idea might be Russian-backed separatist forces in Donbas? (Like TFSA, Turkish-backed Free Syrian Army in the Syrian conflict.) SkoraPobeda ( talk) 22:39, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Source, please?If I google "the pro-Russian separatists" (article "the" is important), I get 58.500 results. Among them, I get Human Rights Watch [17], 3+ articles by Amnesty International (e.g. [18]), 8+ articles by the New York Times (e.g. [19]), 20+ articles by BBC (e.g. [20]), Foreign Affairs [21]. "Pro-Russian separatists" is also used in the officials documents of the EU (e.g. [22]). If I google "the Russian separatists" basically I get Wikipedia articles, plus a lot of quora.com entries and little more: 61 results overall, and among them only a couple of BBC (e.g. [23]), one Deutsche Welle [24] and one NYT [25]. So "Russian separatists" is basically a mistake and we should correct it. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 19:13, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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im going to start a discussion about this here.
so, due to the varyag, rusich and svarozhich units having either been named after neo-Nazi units (varyag) or having Slavic swastikas on their badges (and links to neo-Nazi extremism, such as rusich and svarozhich), i think its appropriate to put them as such, furthermore, the use of extremist also makes sense. the rule, as far as i saw, mainly applies to BLP (biographies of living people), not to battalions or divisions, and considering what is mentioned in the section, using "extremist" should apply on this case, any opinions on that?
ZoopyCat ( talk) 22:18, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
![]() | It was proposed in this section that
Russian separatist forces in Donbas be
renamed and moved to
Pro-Russian separatist forces in Donbas.
result: Move logs:
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Russian separatist forces in Donbas → Pro-Russian separatist forces in Donbas – "Pro-Russian" is BY FAR more common in all reliable sources (see my comment here above at 19:13, 5 August 2022) and is also more precise, because the separatists are not necessarily Russian, but are always pro-Russia. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 22:05, 13 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky ( talk) 03:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky ( talk) 10:43, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
"they are not truly Ukrainians, they are foreign enemies!", which is a quote of yours from above that is seemingly tongue-in-cheek, i.e. accusing the opposition of holding this viewpoint, which implies that you yourself hold the opposite viewpoint. It can be presumed from this quote that you personally hold the opinion that the citizens of the DPR and LPR should be labelled as "Ukrainians, from inside Ukraine", presumably as some kind of "pro-Russian dissidents in Ukraine", to be precise.
It can be presumed from this quote that you personally hold the opinion that the citizens of the DPR and LPR should be labelled as "Ukrainians, from inside Ukraine". No, it can't. I argued that their nationality and/or ethnicity are irrelevant for the purposes of deciding the title of this article. Political goals ("pro-Russian separatist...") and military activities ("...forces in Donbas") are sufficient for identifying the subject. This is the denomination RS use, and so should we. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 14:09, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
We have WP:CRITERIA precisely to avoid unfettered NNPOV speculations about the authentic nature of the subject ("they are not truly Ukrainians, they are foreign enemies!").
oppose. Per common name, is not clear. "Common name" is the reason given by those who support the requested move. Did you mean "support" and wrote "oppose" by mistake? If that's not the case, and you meant what you wrote, could you please explain why you believe that "Russian separatist forces" is the WP:COMMONNAME of the subject of the article? If you don't explain your views, the closer will not know if and how to take them into account. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 14:42, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
I voted to call them Russian supported. But that's not an option here. If you vote "oppose", you get "Russian separatist forces". To have "Russian-backed separatists" you'll have to open another RM
Most of the sources cited on the page calling them "Pro-Russian separatists" are from 2014. Sources continue to call them "pro-Russian". A few examples from 2022: Politico, Reuters, Guardian, Al Jazeera, EJIL_Talk!, Euractiv, Washington Post, ABC, NBC. Nobody calls them "Russian separatists".
I was under the impression that Western media tended (before February 2022) to refer to these people as "Russian-backed separatists". I'm okay with this descriptor, although I oppose "pro-Russian", since that implies that they aren't Russians themselves. Jargo Nautilus ( talk) 09:07, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
As I've suggested in some of my comments above, the descriptor "Russian" can refer to two main things. Either, it refers to the links between the separatists and the Russian government (i.e. "the Kremlin", "the Russian Federation", etc.), or it refers to the ethnic (cultural), racial, genetic, linguistic, or national (self-identification) identity of the separatists. Whilst it might be somewhat difficult to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that these separatists are inextricably linked to the Russian government, I believe that it's a lot easier to prove that these people are ethnic-Russians. So, they can still be described as "Russian" either way, regardless of whether they have proven links to the Russian government or not. Jargo Nautilus ( talk) 10:02, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
Evidence suggests that not all "citizens" of the DPR and the LPR actually identify as Russians. 1 It's pretty unclear as to what "DPR and LPR citizenship" even is. I'm just using that term as a shorthand for people who are ruled by the DPR and LPR governments. A lot of DPR and LPR residents seem to actually be either Ukrainian citizens or Russian citizens. And if there's such a thing as DPR and LPR citizenship, then I think it isn't recognised by the international community, except for maybe by Russia and Russia's proxies elsewhere. Jargo Nautilus ( talk) 10:14, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
First, I would like to add that since my initial comments, I didn't realize it would turn into this large discussion/debate. A main issue with the whole title for me is that it suggests that they are from Russia. Sure, they can identify as Russian and have definite Russian military assistance now. But as far as the DPR 1st Army Corps and LPR 2nd Army Corps goes, these are separatist military formations that went from being militias in 2014-2015 to becoming a regular ground forces based off of the Russian military. (Even though they aren't actually a part of the Russian Ground Forces.) Perhaps you are right Jargo, maybe the title should be renamed something closer to "Russian-backed separatist forces in Donbas", since that would be an accurate assessment of them as well. As I stated back in May, in the Syrian war, the Turkish-backed Free Syrian Army (TFSA) is generalized with that name, despite their official name being the Syrian National Army (SNA). The topic at hand here is two separatist military formations being generalized to something we can all agree on. Yet as @ Gitz6666: was saying, RS tends to call these armed groups as pro-Russians. That's just how they've been called since 2014 to this day. Prior to Falloutguy 1914's unilateral move on April 5, 2021 of turning the title from Separatist forces in Donbas to Russian separatist forces in Donbas, there were no problems over what to name the title for years. One word - 'Russian' - was able to change a whole meaning. And the same goes now with the word 'Pro'. This is definitely some next level debate over the use and addition of one single word.
I also would like to bring up a few quotes said by Jargo earlier: "The war is genocidal by nature, and, contrary to Russian claims, the genocide is mainly being conducted by the Russians, not by the Ukrainians." and "Conversely, how many Donbas civilians did Ukraine kill between April 2014 and February 2022? Civilians, not combatants. Not many, I suspect?"
I have been following Ukraine's crisis since November 2013 (and yes, my user profile doesn't hide what my views are). My mom in fact was lucky enough to visit her relatives in the Donetsk region prior to the war - in August 2013. Imagine, she landed in Donetsk Airport a whole year before it was destroyed, who would have thought back then? Life was stable and nobody cared whether you were Russian or Ukrainian, at least in Eastern Ukraine that is. In the Western Ukrainian regions, they never liked Russians or the entire Soviet period despite gaining plenty of new territory through their independence, this is a fact. Now with this war, everything has been portrayed very different by each side. The West and Ukraine share the same narratives, they go hand-in-hand all the time. Many fellow editors who live in America or Canada with Ukrainian roots will see things only from their side (and understandably so, since they probably have relatives who are in the military with their lives at stake). The non-RS perspective by the separatists and Russian media is the one that typically gets ignored the most. However, since my family and a few acquaintances are still there in Donbas, they have had first-hand experience and of course try to keep certain details to a minimum. What is clear is that despite my family being under Ukrainian control all these years, the Ukrainian government did not and still does not care about the people of Donbas. They have not paid them their salaries for half a year prior to Russia's invasion (at least in my mom's town). To make matter worse, outside their town is currently under the control of a neo-Nazi Right Sector paramilitary known as Ukrainian Volunteer Corps. And it is a fact that Ukraine's government uses them, along with Azov, Kraken Regiments and many others to not only fight the war, but to punish civilians. Both in separatist/Russian and Ukrainian controlled territory. Jargo, civilians in Donbas have been shelled non-stop by Ukraine for 8 years now. This has not been reported by the RS media. Donetsk and Gorlovka/Horlivka have been hit the hardest all this time. You can look up the Anna Tuv Story to get a glimpse of it. Over a thousand civilians died by Ukrainian shelling (mostly by neo-Nazi paramilitary groups, not standard Ukrainian Army) from 2015-2022, that is for sure. I'm sure DPR/LPR and Russian sources would put the estimate higher. Ukrainian war crimes are hidden under the blanket excuse that "Russia did it", and so nobody bothers to investigate it because Western sources take Ukrainian spokesmen at face value every time. Ukrainian false flag attacks have occurred many times since Russia's invasion. And Mariupol was a siege because the major neo-Nazi groups were holding the civilians as human shields, when they tried escaping, they were killed by Azov. This is confirmed by independent Telegram videos and by certain Western journalists who interviewed dozens of civilians in Donbas, and they become completely vilified for disagreeing with the official narrative. These men are Graham Phillips and Patrick Lancaster. With time, their brave journalism will be acknowledged. For now, we get contradictory media statements on how for example "Ukraine launched a successful counter-offensive in Kherson" only for it to be a total disaster and the media tries to quietly shift gears. Most people have little to no knowledge of how this conflict was built up in 2013-14, especially with US State Department involvement in regime change. SkoraPobeda ( talk) 08:42, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
I will get back to you on these comments later: please, do it in their user talk page. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 09:40, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Why would you even call them separatists? Separatists are by definition trying to set up an independent state. While so-called LPR/DPR were waiting to be annexed by Russia from the very start. I thought that would be obvious if not in 2014, then at least after Feb 24, 2022. We don't call /info/en/?search=Finnish_Democratic_Republic separatists, do we? Lvoloshyn ( talk) 07:21, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
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Russian people's militias in Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Link of source No. 63 is outdated. Article has been moved to: https://tass.com/world/739790 Catastropeia ( talk) 22:05, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
The militias were financed, armed and controlled by Russia. The article should describe the connections. Some local leaders were killed. Xx236 ( talk) 10:34, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
“The militias were responsible for shooting down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in July 2014, but the separatist leaders denied it.[8]”
The source cited here still stands as (albeit reasonable) conjecture re: the claim that the militias were responsible. 83.137.6.235 ( talk) 15:26, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
Shouldn't we move this article to Donetsk and Luhansk People's Militias? No RS calls these forces "Russian people's militias in Ukraine", while "Donetsk and Luhansk People's Militias" is supported by RSs [44] [45] [46]. That title is also more NPOV because it neither assumes that these forces are "Russian" (the annexation of Luhansk and Donetsk is not internationally recognised) nor that they are "in Ukraine" (which Russia and their allies deny). Finally, "Donetsk and Luhansk People's Militias" corresponds to the official name of these forces, and it's more simple, precise and recognizable to readers. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 01:20, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Video shared by Storyful shows a soldier, named as Lieutenant Roman Vorobyov from the "Somalia" motorized rifle battalion, receiving the "St. George's Cross II" award while wearing far-right insignia.
The head of the breakaway Donetsk People's Republic in Ukraine has been seen in a video awarding a medal to a fighter ... Published on April 3 through the Russia-backed republic's website, the footage also shows the fighter wearing symbols used by neo-Nazis. [...] the video posted on Pushilin's official website did not show Vorobyov receiving his medal