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Since we have sources speaking both for and against this, article needs to reflect this until the historians reached some kind of consensus on the topic. BP OMowe ( talk) 18:01, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Taking this right from the sources ofrestored version of the article:
Mitrokhin, Nikolay (2015). "Infiltration, instruction, invasion: Russia's war in the Donbass" (PDF). Ournal of Soviet and Post-Soviet Politics and Society. 1 (1): 234, note 38. Likhachev, Vyacheslav (July 2016). "The Far Right in the Conflict between Russia and Ukraine" (PDF). Russie.NEI.Visions in English. pp. 18–28. Retrieved 1 March 2022. Kuzio, Taras (2015). Ukraine: Democratization, Corruption, and the New Russian Imperialism. ABC-CLIO. pp. 110–111. Then there is the article by Laruelle from 2014.
The problem with that quote "unreliable Ukrainian sources" is that there is no way to tell which sources she it talking about, and I'm not prepared to eliminate ALL sources connected to Ukraine without some assurance that Laurelle is the foremost expert in her field and thus has the weight to make that assertation.
Taras Kuzio has his own wikipedia page, would he qualify as a scholar? BP OMowe ( talk) 20:48, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
Ooops, the formatting went awry... fixing it since I wanted to clarify that the above sources were the ones I objected to have removed without discussion, not some tabloid links. While older, they don't become obsolete unless there is a scientific consensus in the field of expertise, but if someone can show such I concede without objection right away. BP OMowe ( talk) 20:58, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
References
This seemed to have even confused at least one editor on RU Wikipedia who's written Дмитрий Бойцов (Dmitrii Boitsov) as leader of the Russian Orthodox Army (Русская православная армия) instead of Orthodox Donbas (православный донбасс). The latter org was never as prolific as the former, but there are recorded conversations (May 2014) between Boitsov and Barkashov, and they share essentially the same ideological background, however I'd have to dig deep into RU web to find out if Orthodox Donbas still even exists. While I'm at it, I'm also going to try and find more recent references to the Russian Orthodox Army, and especially where the 4,000 figure comes from and what exactly was its relationship with Strelkov. EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 20:13, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Matveeva, A. (2017). Through Times of Trouble: Conflict in Southeastern Ukraine Explained from Within. United States: Lexington Books.
https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/paramilitary-forces-ukraine-matches-powder-keg
https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/battle-debaltseve-hybrid-army-classic-battle-encirclement
Shore, M. (2018). The Ukrainian Night: An Intimate History of Revolution. United Kingdom: Yale University Press. (p. 234)
Kaarina Aitamurto, Sanna Turoma, Slobodanka Vladiv-Glover. Religion, Expression, and Patriotism in Russia. (2019). Germany: Columbia University Press. (p. 42)
Kuzio, T. (2015). Ukraine: Democratization, Corruption, and the New Russian Imperialism. United States: ABC-CLIO. (p. 110)
- EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 17:38, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
Wow, you're a quick reader!
Shall I quote more from the source you seem keen to denounce, shall I? To support my case that it is of scholarly worth?
green text "The Ukrainian state is decried as an artificial construct sponsored by the Bolsheviks to weaken Russia. Many of the insurgent groups are rooted in the same ideological brand. One of them, the “Russian Orthodox Army,” stresses its religious identity. Its fighters added an Orthodox cross to the Novorossiya flag and present themselves as “crusaders” and “soldiers of Christ” (voiny khristovye). Their website justifies violence, stating, “Orthodoxy is the religion of the strong.” On one of the official sites of the Donetsk Republic, ikorpus.ru, an anonymous text declares, “Above all, we are fighting for Christ, transmitted to us by our parents and ancestors.” (p.201-2)
green text Even if their ideological background is only vaguely formalized, the massive presence of Cossack troops in eastern Ukraine favors the revival of this “white” reading of Novorossiya... (p. 203)
green text The RNE is a unique case of a defunct nationalist organization whose name became such a brand that it can be instantly reactivated, based only on its faded glory. The movement’s website, soratnik.com, dormant since 2006, was relaunched with the crisis in Ukraine. Many central figures in Donetsk have referred, directly or indirectly, to the RNE. The most famous of them, Pavel Gubarev, a prominent spokesman with multiple titles (leader of the Donbas militia, governor of the Donetsk People’s Republic, its foreign affairs minister, and the founder of the Novorossiya party), claimed to lead the RNE section in Donetsk. He thanked the movement for providing him with military training in the early 2000s, and videos from the RNE congress confirm his attendance... (p. 206-7)
green text Novorossiya was a unique theater for Russian nationalism... Anti-Semitism is one common thread, as Jews can be concurrently denounced as oligarchs and capitalist bankers, as enemies of Christianity and of Russia, and as polluting the White Aryan race... In fact, the second and third ideological themes behind Novorossiya exhibit anti-liberalism but a pro-European posture: through Christian connections for the former, and through the White Power slogan for the latter, they have developed deep interactions with some of their Western European counterparts.
green text These three motives also overlap in some of their networks. Dugin is a producer of both the first and the third interpretations, faithful to his dual Eurasianist and neo-fascist stance. Some youth groups, such as the Russian Imperial Legion, play on both the Black Hundreds and neo-Nazi imagery. Last but not least, the third motif is the most paradoxical, as it reveals an open fracture within the neo-Nazi groups between pro-Ukrainians – still a minority – and pro-Russians. (p. 208-9)
EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 18:28, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Russian Orthodox Army article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Since we have sources speaking both for and against this, article needs to reflect this until the historians reached some kind of consensus on the topic. BP OMowe ( talk) 18:01, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Taking this right from the sources ofrestored version of the article:
Mitrokhin, Nikolay (2015). "Infiltration, instruction, invasion: Russia's war in the Donbass" (PDF). Ournal of Soviet and Post-Soviet Politics and Society. 1 (1): 234, note 38. Likhachev, Vyacheslav (July 2016). "The Far Right in the Conflict between Russia and Ukraine" (PDF). Russie.NEI.Visions in English. pp. 18–28. Retrieved 1 March 2022. Kuzio, Taras (2015). Ukraine: Democratization, Corruption, and the New Russian Imperialism. ABC-CLIO. pp. 110–111. Then there is the article by Laruelle from 2014.
The problem with that quote "unreliable Ukrainian sources" is that there is no way to tell which sources she it talking about, and I'm not prepared to eliminate ALL sources connected to Ukraine without some assurance that Laurelle is the foremost expert in her field and thus has the weight to make that assertation.
Taras Kuzio has his own wikipedia page, would he qualify as a scholar? BP OMowe ( talk) 20:48, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
Ooops, the formatting went awry... fixing it since I wanted to clarify that the above sources were the ones I objected to have removed without discussion, not some tabloid links. While older, they don't become obsolete unless there is a scientific consensus in the field of expertise, but if someone can show such I concede without objection right away. BP OMowe ( talk) 20:58, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
References
This seemed to have even confused at least one editor on RU Wikipedia who's written Дмитрий Бойцов (Dmitrii Boitsov) as leader of the Russian Orthodox Army (Русская православная армия) instead of Orthodox Donbas (православный донбасс). The latter org was never as prolific as the former, but there are recorded conversations (May 2014) between Boitsov and Barkashov, and they share essentially the same ideological background, however I'd have to dig deep into RU web to find out if Orthodox Donbas still even exists. While I'm at it, I'm also going to try and find more recent references to the Russian Orthodox Army, and especially where the 4,000 figure comes from and what exactly was its relationship with Strelkov. EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 20:13, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Matveeva, A. (2017). Through Times of Trouble: Conflict in Southeastern Ukraine Explained from Within. United States: Lexington Books.
https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/paramilitary-forces-ukraine-matches-powder-keg
https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/battle-debaltseve-hybrid-army-classic-battle-encirclement
Shore, M. (2018). The Ukrainian Night: An Intimate History of Revolution. United Kingdom: Yale University Press. (p. 234)
Kaarina Aitamurto, Sanna Turoma, Slobodanka Vladiv-Glover. Religion, Expression, and Patriotism in Russia. (2019). Germany: Columbia University Press. (p. 42)
Kuzio, T. (2015). Ukraine: Democratization, Corruption, and the New Russian Imperialism. United States: ABC-CLIO. (p. 110)
- EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 17:38, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
Wow, you're a quick reader!
Shall I quote more from the source you seem keen to denounce, shall I? To support my case that it is of scholarly worth?
green text "The Ukrainian state is decried as an artificial construct sponsored by the Bolsheviks to weaken Russia. Many of the insurgent groups are rooted in the same ideological brand. One of them, the “Russian Orthodox Army,” stresses its religious identity. Its fighters added an Orthodox cross to the Novorossiya flag and present themselves as “crusaders” and “soldiers of Christ” (voiny khristovye). Their website justifies violence, stating, “Orthodoxy is the religion of the strong.” On one of the official sites of the Donetsk Republic, ikorpus.ru, an anonymous text declares, “Above all, we are fighting for Christ, transmitted to us by our parents and ancestors.” (p.201-2)
green text Even if their ideological background is only vaguely formalized, the massive presence of Cossack troops in eastern Ukraine favors the revival of this “white” reading of Novorossiya... (p. 203)
green text The RNE is a unique case of a defunct nationalist organization whose name became such a brand that it can be instantly reactivated, based only on its faded glory. The movement’s website, soratnik.com, dormant since 2006, was relaunched with the crisis in Ukraine. Many central figures in Donetsk have referred, directly or indirectly, to the RNE. The most famous of them, Pavel Gubarev, a prominent spokesman with multiple titles (leader of the Donbas militia, governor of the Donetsk People’s Republic, its foreign affairs minister, and the founder of the Novorossiya party), claimed to lead the RNE section in Donetsk. He thanked the movement for providing him with military training in the early 2000s, and videos from the RNE congress confirm his attendance... (p. 206-7)
green text Novorossiya was a unique theater for Russian nationalism... Anti-Semitism is one common thread, as Jews can be concurrently denounced as oligarchs and capitalist bankers, as enemies of Christianity and of Russia, and as polluting the White Aryan race... In fact, the second and third ideological themes behind Novorossiya exhibit anti-liberalism but a pro-European posture: through Christian connections for the former, and through the White Power slogan for the latter, they have developed deep interactions with some of their Western European counterparts.
green text These three motives also overlap in some of their networks. Dugin is a producer of both the first and the third interpretations, faithful to his dual Eurasianist and neo-fascist stance. Some youth groups, such as the Russian Imperial Legion, play on both the Black Hundreds and neo-Nazi imagery. Last but not least, the third motif is the most paradoxical, as it reveals an open fracture within the neo-Nazi groups between pro-Ukrainians – still a minority – and pro-Russians. (p. 208-9)
EnlightenmentNow1792 ( talk) 18:28, 9 April 2022 (UTC)