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The map: Map including the Russell Islands
@ Drmies: General basis for inclusion (response to initial " Why?" removal rationale)
[1] "A link to a professionally done historical map of the region these islands are located in should not be deleted out of hand. It is obviously a valuable resource to researchers or people interested in this area."
Response to secondary removal rationale [2]:
"a. you'd have to argue this meets WP:ELYES"
WP:ELYES "3. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues,[4] amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks), or other reasons."
The map is neutral, accurate material relevant to an encyclpedic understanding of the subject, and may be unable to be integrated in the article due to copyright issues (Australian copyright) and/or due to amount of detail (is a map of the region generally; may be considered to be too much detail). Therefore, this may meet the standard under ELYES.
"b. it says "copyright commonwealth of australia 1998" but is hosted on a website in texas"
Library Web Material Usage Statement
"Copyright Not Held by University of Texas at Austin This site provides access to materials, licensed or otherwise, for which the copyright is held by owners other than the University of Texas at Austin. Use of these materials and resources is restricted by applicable license agreement and copyright law."
The Library is directly stating that they provide access to materials not copyrighted by the library and not in the public domain. Are they not allowed to provide access to these materials? If so, I will mail a formal complaint to U Tex about this map on their library website. It stands to reason that they have the right to provide access to the map, but that Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia may not have the right to upload it.
On this basis, I would like to restore this map.
Geographyinitiative ( talk) 17:42, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
"There is no anticipated free for all" is ... well, a statement without any evidence. For over a decade I have been cleaning up External links sections, and yes, we need to keep these within guidelines, since all too often we hear "well look what they have over on article X". YOU are suggesting that this will not affect THIS article, but I am not interested in just this article. No, we are not going to add links to maps found here and there on the internet to this article, lest this provides a rationale to editors to provide such things on every article. Thank you. Drmies ( talk) 02:02, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Geographyinitiative, you asked, "Can you see my point that the map has useful information on it about the Russell Islands?" I can see it, but I don't agree with it, since it would apply to every single article on Wikipedia that has something to do with geography. And badgering Diannaa in a matter in which she clearly has expertise is just really silly. Did I see you say, earlier, that you were going to take this up with the University of Texas library? Good luck with that. What are you trying to achieve here, on this page and on Wikipedia? Drmies ( talk) 18:21, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
WP:ELNEVER says that linking to copyrighted works should only be done if the website is manifestly run, maintained or owned by the copyright owner; the website has licensed the work from the owner; or it uses the work in a way compliant with fair useUniversity of Texas at Austin doesn't claim to be licensing it or making a fair use exception.I'd kind of wonder how this rule works out when Wikipedia makes a citation to an orphan work at the Internet Archive or HathiTrust, for example; but this map is not an orphan work and the consequence of policy is clear in this case, that this article cannot link to the map at any web site not run by the Commonwealth of Australia or having obtained a license. Graeme Bartlett's suggestion to enhance Openstreetmap and use it instead seems an excellent idea though. p.s. but you could also try a reverse image search to attempt to find the image published on a web site run by the Commonwealth of Australia; I tried TinEye with no luck but there are others. -- ‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 03:20, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
The map: Map including the Russell Islands
@ Drmies: General basis for inclusion (response to initial " Why?" removal rationale)
[1] "A link to a professionally done historical map of the region these islands are located in should not be deleted out of hand. It is obviously a valuable resource to researchers or people interested in this area."
Response to secondary removal rationale [2]:
"a. you'd have to argue this meets WP:ELYES"
WP:ELYES "3. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues,[4] amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks), or other reasons."
The map is neutral, accurate material relevant to an encyclpedic understanding of the subject, and may be unable to be integrated in the article due to copyright issues (Australian copyright) and/or due to amount of detail (is a map of the region generally; may be considered to be too much detail). Therefore, this may meet the standard under ELYES.
"b. it says "copyright commonwealth of australia 1998" but is hosted on a website in texas"
Library Web Material Usage Statement
"Copyright Not Held by University of Texas at Austin This site provides access to materials, licensed or otherwise, for which the copyright is held by owners other than the University of Texas at Austin. Use of these materials and resources is restricted by applicable license agreement and copyright law."
The Library is directly stating that they provide access to materials not copyrighted by the library and not in the public domain. Are they not allowed to provide access to these materials? If so, I will mail a formal complaint to U Tex about this map on their library website. It stands to reason that they have the right to provide access to the map, but that Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia may not have the right to upload it.
On this basis, I would like to restore this map.
Geographyinitiative ( talk) 17:42, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
"There is no anticipated free for all" is ... well, a statement without any evidence. For over a decade I have been cleaning up External links sections, and yes, we need to keep these within guidelines, since all too often we hear "well look what they have over on article X". YOU are suggesting that this will not affect THIS article, but I am not interested in just this article. No, we are not going to add links to maps found here and there on the internet to this article, lest this provides a rationale to editors to provide such things on every article. Thank you. Drmies ( talk) 02:02, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Geographyinitiative, you asked, "Can you see my point that the map has useful information on it about the Russell Islands?" I can see it, but I don't agree with it, since it would apply to every single article on Wikipedia that has something to do with geography. And badgering Diannaa in a matter in which she clearly has expertise is just really silly. Did I see you say, earlier, that you were going to take this up with the University of Texas library? Good luck with that. What are you trying to achieve here, on this page and on Wikipedia? Drmies ( talk) 18:21, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
WP:ELNEVER says that linking to copyrighted works should only be done if the website is manifestly run, maintained or owned by the copyright owner; the website has licensed the work from the owner; or it uses the work in a way compliant with fair useUniversity of Texas at Austin doesn't claim to be licensing it or making a fair use exception.I'd kind of wonder how this rule works out when Wikipedia makes a citation to an orphan work at the Internet Archive or HathiTrust, for example; but this map is not an orphan work and the consequence of policy is clear in this case, that this article cannot link to the map at any web site not run by the Commonwealth of Australia or having obtained a license. Graeme Bartlett's suggestion to enhance Openstreetmap and use it instead seems an excellent idea though. p.s. but you could also try a reverse image search to attempt to find the image published on a web site run by the Commonwealth of Australia; I tried TinEye with no luck but there are others. -- ‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 03:20, 14 November 2020 (UTC)