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[[Image:Björketorpsstenen runor.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Closeup of the runes on the Björketorp Runestone :There is something wrong with this picture. Notice Lichen plants which grows under the insctiption :)
Realy irrelevant? Nasz 18:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The SIG redirect was going to the goddess rather than the rune
—Preceding unsigned comment added by ASH1977LAW ( talk • contribs) 11:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't look like spam to me. I glanced through the article - full of typos, but English is not the author's native language. Here's the link:
Someone check this out please? Cbdorsett 09:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I created a Runic table at User:Wakuran/Runic_Table with some of the more striking correspondences between the Elder Futhark and the Greek and Latin alphabets. I wonder if it could be useful, or if it's too unwieldy for the article. Probably some of the more probable alternate variants of Etruscan, Western Greek and Old Italic alphabets should be added, as well, if someone has images for these letter variants. Please give comments. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 10:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I am very disturbed by this unsourced statements concercing the West Germanic hypothesis:
"However, it should be noted that the differences between Proto-Norse and other Germanic dialects were still minute and that the classification is mostly based on location rather than forms. References to unknown tribes are received with doubt."
Here the author takes the liberty to evaluate a scholarly investigation without resorting to a valid reference. According to his personal views?
The editor fails to review the facts within the new context created to this West Germanic hypothesis by itself. My footnote concerning the most obvious consequence to this West Germanic hypothesis - that the Proto-Norse identity of the first runes would have to be reconsidered before making such a statement since this might even invalidate all preliminary conclusions about language differences - was silently deleted by the author. Indeed, something should be noted before trying to invalidate a theory using loose arguments.
All arguments are put forward to cast doubts on a certain theory. This is not the task of Wikipedia. Although I normally value logic, however, I consider the current arguments shaky, so I think this phrase should be properly sourced or deleted at all. Like this I would easily mistake the phrase for OR and POV. Rokus01 00:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Please display your knowledge of Begging the question in assuming an argument in favour of "differences between Proto-Norse and other Germanic dialects were still minute", with all we know about Proto-Norse being runes theorized here to be West Germanic. Since this kind of phoney counter arguments against such a West Germanic hypothsis are not sourced, I am justified in suspecting OR. The Northwest Germanic theory only has significance within the context of this runes whose "scantiness .... makes it impossible to be sure of the relationship of this language to Germanic and its daughter languages. It is traditionally known as Scandinavian but shows few if any distinctively North Germanic features and MAY reflect a stage, sometimes called Northwest Germanic" (Britannica, 22:650). However, the generally accepted archeological view is explained in Britannica 22:642. 750BC: a relatively uniform Germanic spoken from the Netherlands to the Vistula and southern Scandinavia (by the way, where is Jastorf? never mind); 250BC five general groups are distinguishable, including North Germanic, North Sea Germanic, Rhine Weser Germanic, Elbe Germanic and East Germanic. You see? No Northwestern Germanic mentioned in this list. Indeed, North Germanic + Northsea Germanic + Rhine-Weser Germanic shared a sound change, but the same has been argued to apply to Northsea Germanic and a later stage of (Roman-?)Keltic (k=>sj in cheese and chateaux): this is not enough to assume small differences - I've even heard of sound changes being triggered by language contacts. A language continuum, I agree, but what would this mean more than to assume non-representative local dialects?
"However, it should be noted that the differences between Proto-Norse and other Germanic dialects were still minute and that the classification is mostly based on location rather than forms. References to unknown tribes are received with doubt."
No, I try but can't make any sense out of this all too obvious an example of OR. I would appreciate you could find a source supporting all of this. Who says the Britannica classification is based on location? And so what, does this support your claim that Germanic languages did not differentiate enough to be distinguisable? Who's theory is this and where it says so? And who received the references to unknown tribes with doubt? I really want to know. Rokus01 23:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Berig, read and notice I address the objections to a theory for being both unsourced and private. I am willing to add a {{fact}} tag ONLY if the existence of sources -able to support a certain statement- is reasonable to assume. I already explained extensively above why here such is not the case. I summarize:
In short, the edit is unacceptable "as is". If removal is not an option, I would rather propose the following: "However, it should be noted that differences between Germanic languages still might have been minute. The nomer Proto-Norse would continue to be based on location, without reflecting any (North Germanic) classification based on linguistic forms. References to unknown tribes could increase our knowledge of the Germanic culture, but fail to support new divisions along linguistic lines." Rokus01 22:13, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Rokus, your basic understanding that sources should be responsibly cited is correct. However, you continue to nitpick in an unconstructive manner. It is far from clear what you are trying to achieve, but it appears that it is ultimately about some private obsession of yours regarding Proto-Germanic and the Netherlands. I still don't quite understand what you want, but it appears you have a bee in your bonnet about some native and ancient specifically West-Germanic culture rooted in your native soil. In other words, boring old national mysticism. Instead of trying to insert whatever it is you prefer to believe, you take to sniping at perfectly mainstream statements, which is alwasy possible since, surprise surprise, nothing in Iron Age linguistics is dead certain or undisputed. It is true that the phrasing "minute" could be altered to something less assertive, but that's really it. A minor matter of more careful phrasing, nothing that needs to be drawn out into a vitriolic dispute. The difference between Germanic dialects of the 2nd century AD certainly was rather minor (give us one major isogloss between Proto-North-Germanic and Proto-West-Germanic!) dab (𒁳) 11:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The page Runic alphabet give no clue on how the punctuation marks are used. Can someone cite a hint?
Punctuation | Name | Description of usage | Example of usage |
---|---|---|---|
᛫ | single punctuation | ? | ? |
᛬ | multiple punctuation | ? | ? |
᛭ | cross punctuation | ? | ? |
ThanX NevilleDNZ 10:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I suspect (based on a "modern example") that the "᛭" runic-cross is actually a form of quotation mark. Can someone comment or provide an original example? NevilleDNZ 05:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
as with the rest of the runic blocks, these are really glyphs, not characters. It was completely arbitrary to include those, and not others (like triple dots etc.), or common bindrunes. The Skåäng Runestone has little crosses as word dividers. Other inscriptions use other "punctuation". You cannot say "this or that symbol was used in this or that sense". Frankly, the Unicode encoding of the runic alphabet as it stands is patently pointless, since you'll only ever want to give the runic letters when they are not standard in some way. The block would have had to encode the complete set of letter variants to be useful. dab (𒁳) 07:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
ThanX for that. The Skåäng Runestone is a useful example.
The thing that prompted my query is the 1950s/60s German ALCOR (pre-ASCII) computer character set. This character set includes the runic cross, eg http://homepages.cwi.nl/~dik/english/codes/5tape.html#alcor. (and is also refered to as a iron cross). Certainly in Germany - in the 1930s - using Runic characters was "trendy", eg ᛋᛋ. But I would like to figure out why the "᛭" suddenly appears in only the 1960s German ALGOL character set. I guess I need to search elsewhere. ThanX NevilleDNZ 07:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, aside from the Jerusalem cross (☩), I also found the Maltese Cross (✠). Your 1813 vintage cross potent seems quite likely. NevilleDNZ 11:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
are there really no runes in all of Finland?? EVER. also inscriptions from when?? I still write runes - are those inscriptions? do they count? I think could be better written. also contradicts article as some runes in north America, Russia - are these included in this corpus? is it just stones? or books too? vis. morla stone and http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9529/scanrus.htm be good to know where source is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.198.49.178 ( talk) 17:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not disputing the fact that that Macleod and Mees reference is a valid one but does anyone think that that part should be deleted because there isn't any note to that reference. For all we know the editor could have made that up. If no one responds to this query then I'll assume that no one cares and delete it myself (It's in the magic section). Lighthead þ 23:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It is incredible how this article is featured, and there is nothing written in it about the bulgarian runes, probably one of the first runic alphabets used in Europe. Here's a table http://mathstat.helsinki.fi/~noykova/Neli%20Noykova%20Finnish%20language%20course_files/image002.jpg and some other things about it http://www.kroraina.com/pb_lang/pbl_2_9.html -- Tangra —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.248.190 ( talk) 13:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
yes, this sometimes comes up in Slavic national mysticist fringecruft. We used to have an article on this, but I can't find it now (maybe it was deleted). The Kuban alphabet of the Turkic Bulgars is a bona fide separate topic otoh. -- dab (𒁳) 17:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I've got it, the keyword is "черъты и рѣзы" ("черти и резки"/"черты и резы"). This is the term Chernorizets Hrabar uses for a sign system of the early Slavs. The Russian article is at ru:Славянские руны (!), the English one at Pre-Cyrillic Slavic writing. We could link it from the "see also" section here. dab (𒁳) 17:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems that when I see the image version of Uruz here on Wikipedia, it is a straight line with another line pointing out to the side reaching the bottom. I've only seen this with Junicode. Every other runic font I have used (Code2001, Skiers, etc) or seen has a "staple style" uruz which looks like the corresponding character in the Gothic alphabet. Which one is correct here? Jacques Pirat Talk 22:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Ah, that makes sense. Thank you. Jacques Pirat Talk 20:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I removed the calculations of the number of runic inscriptions in the Scandinavian countries divided by the area of the Scandinavian countries in square kilometers. First of all, it clearly qualifies as Original Research, but more importantly, it's irrelevant and misleading, for these reasons: The calculations are based on the area of the Nordic countries, as of 2007. The present borders of Denmark date from after the first world war, and of Sweden and Norway also from modern times. The number of square kilometers these countries make up today bears no relevance to the world in which the runic inscriptions were made. Norway and Sweden contain large tracts of uninhabited mountains and forests, which Denmark does not. The northern parts of Sweden and Norway were not populated, or at least only very scarcely, by old Norse speaking rune-users in the time period when runes were used. About one sixth of the area of Norway, as used in the table, is made up of Svalbard, which wasn't even discovered until the 12th century (probably), and even today only has a semi-permanent population. If one wants to say something meaningful about the geographical distribution of runic inscriptions, this isn't the way to do it, this is just a meaningless game with numbers. What could be interesting is pointing out clusters of runic inscriptions, smaller areas where especially large numbers might have been found (such as the Bryggen inscriptions in Bergen, or the Maeshowe inscriptions), and so on. -- Barend ( talk) 15:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I where the one who added the number of runic inscriptions per square kilometer. I agree that info about clusters of runic inscriptions would be awesome. But none of the less a "per square kilometer" row, is in my opinion not at all misleading in any way. It's not a competition, about where there are most runic inscriptions or anything. Svalbard being a part of Norway, now and not then, is not the point. It's a standard statistic info, witch inform of the whereabouts of the Vikings, and indeed the viking placements of the rune stones, in the country borders we know now. Just as number of runic inscriptions are placed in. I only added calculations for the Scandinavian countries, hoping others would add, calculations for the others. This is my first talk page edit, hope I'm doing it right. UlrikOldenburg ( talk) 21:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Staveless runes lack HORIZONTAL strokes, NOT vertical. You can see this clearly in the image. Also, a stave (aka "staff") is a horizontal bar. It's obvious what it should be but someone keeps changing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.126.170.20 ( talk) 22:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
FYI, you can add a link to Portal:Norway in this article, by placing {{Portal|Norway}} at the top of the see also section (or the external links section if the article has no see also section). This will display
Cirt ( talk) 09:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi, what is the above supposed to mean? Nasality of vowels can be independent from vowel quality (in terms of formant frequencies). -- Kjoon lee 16:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
there is some discussion on what to do with the articles on the individual runes. Many of them are certainly stubby and need attention. Although it is better to have an informative stub than a rambling page of nonsense. Bloodofox ( talk · contribs) thinks they are a "mess" in need of standardization. See here and here. We are looking at the following issues:
anyway, informed third opinions are welcome. I am presenting the question here (as boo should have done) to allow centralized discussion between interested parties. I would certainly welcome further expansion and cleanup of the rune articles as long as it happens with expertise and circumspection. If there is an interest in "standardization" of these articles, I refer to the thought I have put into "infoboxes" further up on this page (February 2006). this arrangement is flexible enough to capture the key data of each rune (with some fields remaining empty depending on the situation). I'll try to implement this in a {{ runic letter}} template. dab (𒁳) 09:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Though this topic is something I wanted to tackle as part of a coordinated Ancient Germanic studies project, it seems that important decisions are being made now. I would like to come back to a point raised earlier: a 'standardized' outline. Do either of you have any concrete ideas here? I was thinking something like the following:
Criticism is expected - but so are concrete alternative proposals. Ideas? — Aryaman (Enlist!) 11:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I would advise against artificial standardization of article names. WP:NAME tells us to pick the most common name for the topic. For a well-attested rune like the g rune, this may well be gyfu, while for an obscure rune like p, this may indeed be "p rune". Runes that survive both in Anglo-Saxon and Younger Futhark rows, the runes will be known by at least two names, depending on context (strictly speaking, an Anglo-Saxon f rune is not the "same" letter as a YF f rune, but not even Unicode makes this distinction). WP:UCS on a case by case basis will be needed there. dab (𒁳) 18:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:Bluetooth.svg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 20:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I deleted this following the guidance at WP:EL and [4] which says:
Webpages in English are highly preferred. Linking to non-English pages may still be useful for readers in the following cases:
when the website is the subject of the article
when linking to pages with maps, diagrams, photos, tables (explain the key terms with the link, so that people who do not know the language can interpret them)
when the webpage contains key or authoritative information found on no English-language site and is used as a citation (or when translations on English-language sites are not authoritative).
Particularly we already have slightly more links than we should have, I'd like to know the rationale for having this one. Dougweller ( talk) 11:02, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
this isn't about the Russian bits at all. The question is, should we link to Jon Olafsson of Grunnavik's MS. Runologia. This seems to be a notable early (18th century) work on runology. As long as we keep a separate runology article discussing the history of research, this manuscript should probably be discussed there. Better yet, we need an English equivalent of the is:Jón Grunnvíkingur article. Just linking to an 18th century treatise on runology without comment isn't very helpul. -- dab (𒁳) 08:58, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I note we have a redlink to Jón Ólafsson (runologist) at Jón Ólafsson. This is the article we should develop, and the alfatruin.msk.ru link would properly be placed there. -- dab (𒁳) 09:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
It is claimed here [5] that the Runnic scripts and the ancient Turkic (Gokturk) scripts may have some relation between each other. Has any further search done about this yet? Some signs/letters in Gokturk Runes look really similar, especially a, i, u etc.. Yasakresim ( talk) 22:34, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Even if the instructions found on the linked page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Special_characters the runic characters are still not displayed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.184.65 ( talk) 11:44, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
The article mentions three punctuation marks for Runic. From what I can discern from my copy of the Hobbit (yes, an original runic source! :) ), it seems that the single punctuation was used instead of a space, and the multiple punctuation instead of a full-stop, but I'm unable to find anything concerning the use of the cross punctuation. Would anyone like to amend the article to fix this? -- TimNelson ( talk) 04:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Unlike mentioned in the text, "runot" means "poems" not "song" in Finnish language. ( 84.248.114.173 ( talk) 00:18, 8 April 2012 (UTC))
Shouldn't the caption "Unicode" better be "Typesetting in computer systems"? Because that would enable it to be more general and allow information like "Runes can be produces in LaTeX with various packages such as the Futhark, Anglo-Saxon Futharc or the more general packages Runic or Allrunes." Would that be appropriate? Peterthewall ( talk) 11:35, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
How do I get the intext runic to display on my computere. on every lemma about rune's I only get squares when ever there is a unicode rune used.
via the special character help page I changed my settings utf8 and sett my lettertype to a Unicode one. but for both Chrome and IE this does not do the trick.
Ian Splinter ( talk) 10:06, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
It is obvious on the Franks Casket that the runes, along with moving left-to-right when on the top, also move top-to-bottom if on the right side, right-to-left if on the bottom, and bottom-to-top if on the left side. I have no clue how to change it in the box on the right on the page. If someone knows how, that person should fix it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JCLarsson ( talk • contribs) 23:35, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
It was founded by Euboean Greeks who used a local variant of the Greek alphabet, the Euboean alphabet. This alphabet developed into the Latin alphabet, the world's most widely used phonemic script, after it was adopted and modified first by the Etruscans (800–100 BC) and then by the Romans (300–100 BC).-- 151.46.171.113 ( talk) 20:15, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
"Historically, the runic alphabet is a derivation of the Old Italic alphabets of antiquity, with the addition of some innovations. Which variant of the Old Italic family in particular gave rise to the runes is uncertain. Suggestions include Raetic, Etruscan, or Old Latin as candidates. At the time, all of these scripts had the same angular letter shapes suited for epigraphy, which would become characteristic of the runes". And since the current scientific standpoint seems to be that noone knows which of the old Italic alphabets Runes derived from, and the section about the Etruscan alphabet in the article about the Old Italic script says that
"It is not clear whether the process of adaptation from the Greek alphabet took place in Italy from the first colony of Greeks, the city of Cumae, or in Greece/Asia Minor", a direct link between Runes and the subvariety of the Euboean alphabet used in Cumae hasn't been proven. Thomas.W talk 09:50, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Any source for perth meaning pear-tree? The first thing that comes to my mind when I see or hear it is the Swedish word Pärta, which means Shingle(Wooden Roof Tile) and that might possibly be a more logical sollution since I don't really know how common pear trees were in northern Europe in the Middle Ages, but I know wooden roofs were very common. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.72.226.49 ( talk) 14:12, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
I have re-reverted an edit in which the origin of the runes from Phoenician letters is added to the lede. IP, please provide your sources here. Yngvadottir ( talk) 12:57, 16 September 2013 (UTC) ... I've now tracked down what the IP is misunderstanding: Phoenician letters are listed in the infobox at Elder futhark as the parent of the Italic alphabets thought to be the source of the rune forms. That does not amount to immediate derivation from Phoenician or any other Levantine alphabet. Yngvadottir ( talk) 13:15, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Whilst translating an academic book from the Spanish I have just come across a silver Roman denarius dated at the second century BC. This coin has six runic characters making a word on the reverse. I am attempting to identify the head of which Emperor appears on the face. If confirmed it will shift the date of the first known runic script back by three centuries. Geoffreybrooks ( talk) 14:14, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/date/2012/05/page/3 http://www.zbsa.eu/news/news-2012/oldest-evidence-of-westgermanic-language
In 2003 another comb, with a runic inscription KABA, dating to the 3rd century AD, was found in Frienstedt, City of Erfurt. It has been claimed that "this is the earliest proof of the West Germanic language", but I strongly contest such a claim. The hypothetical Proto-Germanic language has the word "kambaz" with Z, but not KAMBA or KABA without Z.
The letters on the Frienstedt comb KABA are to be read as “Ka(m)ba, and of course in modern Finnish the word KAMPA is the word for comb.
Funny that IN THIS CASE the meaning of the word KABA is not disputed... This supports my previous theory, that the word HARJA on the Vimose Comb, too, simply denotes the object and is not a name of the owner.
Let's again keep in mind that until c. 500 AD runes were mainly used in Fennoscandia/Scandinavia, and from 100BC until at least 1000AD practically the entire Fennoscandian and Baltic area was ruled by Finnish tribes. 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 12:40, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
You have exactly 24 hours to disprove what I have written and if you are unable to do so, nothing will stop me from reversing my edits back the way I did them. I'm willing to explain and reference things to anyone interested. To you, however, I will only respond when you have shown me the sources I'm asking for. Do not bother filling this conversation with your personal nonsensical and unscientific views, because nobody is interested in you. If you have no documents to show, do not waste my time. 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 18:14, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
More information supporting previous information:
http://runer.ku.dk/VisGenstand.aspx?Titel=Vimose-kam - "Tolkes som runeristerens eller ejerens navn. Et alternativt forslag er, at harja kan oversættes med 'kam' (Seebold 1994, 71)." Translation: “An alternative suggestion is that HARJA can be translated as a “comb”.”
The Swedish expert Ove Berg writes in his book “Runsvenska, svenska, finska” (published in 2003) that “he has been able to translate older runes with Finnish rather than with Swedish”. http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=185&artikel=375080 http://www.books.google.com/books?isbn=9163129868 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 22:05, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Professor of Phonetics Kalevi Wiik wrote in 1999: "My most decisive claim is that the Germanic, Baltic and Slavic languages were born under the influence of the Finno-Ugrian languages in the context of a shift in language from Finno-Ugrian to Indo-European." http://www.finlit.fi/booksfromfinland/bff/399/wiik.htm
The Swedish Henrik O. Andersson, too, writes in his book: "Finska element i svenska ortnamn", ISBN 91-86016-29-6, that "Many things speak in favor of the Finnish language being the linguistic forerunner of the Germanic languages in Northern Europe. Swedish place names bear witness to this most clearly." 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 12:08, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
"Harja" (= brush, comb in modern Finnish) is not a Germanic word. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/harja - http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2636328
Suggesting that runes are in Germanic languages only, is not based on factual information nor probability but on mere biased speculation.
http://www.emersonkent.com/images/maps/europe_814.jpg
Northern Europe in and after the time of the first known runes was ruled by the Finns/Kvens, so it's only logical that runes were used - at least - to write the Finnish (Finnic/Finno-Ugric) language. Also, the word HARJA found on the Vimose Comb did exist in the Finnic/Finnish language already in 150-160 AD, but it did not exist as such in the Germanic languages.
The whole article must be rewritten if Wikipedia wants to be considered a reliable source of information. 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 17:26, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
The Vimose Comb reads HARJA, NOT HARJAZ. In Finnish HARJA means the thing you brush your hair with, so it's obvious the text on the Vimose Comb is in Finnish. 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 23:21, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Above a direct translation from Häkkinen's much-lauded etymological dictionary, p. 171. Kaisa Häkkinen: Nykysuomen etymologinen sanakirja, s. 935. Helsinki: WSOY, 2004. ISBN 951-0-27108-x Parameter error in {{ ISBN}}: invalid character.
No mention of a Germanic origin and indeed, such a word does not exist even in the hypothetical Proto-Germanic language. Only the word harjaZ may exist. (In Proto-Germanic names the first name element lost its -z ending during the combination of both name elements, for instance the words *harjaz and *wulfaz were not combined as *Harjazwulfaz but as *Harjawulfaz.) HARJA alone would have been an impossible word.
Would you kindly present the links you refer to, that prove my point wrong without a doubt? Thank you in advance. 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 01:19, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Two sources supporting the theory that the text HARJA on the Vimose Comb denotes the object:
Kabell, Aage. "Harja. In: Zeitschrift für deutsches Altertum und deutsche Literatur, 102, 1973, 1-15." HARJA. Übersetzung: "das zu den Haaren gehörige (=Kamm)"
Seebold, Elmar. "Die sprachliche Deutung und Einordnung der archaischen Runeninschriften. In: Runische Schriftkultur in kontinental-skandinavischer und -angelsächsischer Wechselbeziehung. Internationales Symposium in der Werner-Reimers-Stiftung vom 24.-27. Juni 1992 inBad Homburg, (hg.) Düwel, Klaus. Berlin, New York 1994, 56-94." HARJA. Übersetzung: "den Kamm"
http://www.runenprojekt.uni-kiel.de/abfragen/standard/deutung2.asp?findno=20&ort=Vimose&objekt=Kamm 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 12:41, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
W.Grimm ("On german runes"/ "Über deutsche Runen") relates the term Markomannen to Hrabanus Maurus contemporary use for Nordalbingier. Grimms explanation mentions that this geographical term is to be seen from the situation of Fulda Monastery, which was like an outpost of the east frankish dominion, surrounded by so-called "Mark(s)" - boarder regions claimed by both sides, which are subjected to regularely military campaigns. I found that explanation very logical.-- 78.51.53.223 ( talk) 15:11, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Introduction section, 4th paragraph, last sentence: "The Younger Futhark developed further into the Marcomannic runes, the Medieval runes (1100–1500 AD), and the Dalecarlian runes (around 1500–1800 AD)."
BUT: the chronology as suggested by the index contradicts this!:
2.3 "Marcomannic runes" (8th to 9th centuries) 2.4 Younger Futhark (9th to 11th centuries)
Which version is correct?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.204.84.48 ( talk) 19:44, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Hi, sourceless rank amateur here ... Concerning the continued use of runes after introduction of the latin alphabet, it seems reasonable/a man in the pub told me that while paper and ink were scarce and expensive, knives and wood chips were ubiquitous and free, which would give at least an economic explanation. And aren't the non-vertical strokes almost all diagonals precisely in order to allow easier carving in wood? Or did I miss something about that? T 88.89.219.147 ( talk) 15:13, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Bluetooth is a Scandinavian invention whose symbol that exists on every modern electronic device is made from Runes. Should be here. 184.155.130.147 ( talk) 22:45, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
הראש ( talk) 23:32, 6 May 2015 (UTC) On your curtain? Is this some alleged "hate crime"? Since you are Jewish...
What language is it in? 119.92.93.84 ( talk) 13:37, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
Were runes often inscribed so as to run left-to-right on one line and right-to-left on the following line? Runes might then be included in the Boustrophedon article. Kortoso ( talk) 19:03, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Part of this article uses modern typography (Elder Futhark) and part medieval (Anglo-Saxon runes: "The fuþorc"). The article is written in modern English, and therefore ought to follow modern English conventions and use "th" in place or thorn or eth. As things stand it is confusing and unnecessarily complex for those unused to medieval texts. Do others agree before I go through using the "th" form? Martin of Sheffield ( talk) 22:08, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
Done Martin of Sheffield ( talk) 11:48, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
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This is not the same, and Futharken should not be redirected to this article. Whilst runes are the letters used in Scandinavia , the alphabet for the runes is known as Futharken (or Futarken). Futarken is a later invention, the runes during their first 300-400 years of usage wasn't sorted in to an alphabet. Futharken is an invention from the times (approximately 1050-1150 AD) when the latin letters first were introduced to Scandinavia. Although not a valid source, this facebook page explains it rather well (in Swedish though) https://www.facebook.com/timetraveltourssweden/posts/runor-det-finns-flera-olika-runalfabeten-vilket-kanske-inte-%C3%A4r-j%C3%A4ttek%C3%A4nt-av-den-/1147447111957493/ (The Vikinger could read and write but their runes wasn't standardised, runes has also been used in central Europe but was replaced with latin letters earlier than farther north) Boeing720 ( talk) 20:15, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
[[Image:Björketorpsstenen runor.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Closeup of the runes on the Björketorp Runestone :There is something wrong with this picture. Notice Lichen plants which grows under the insctiption :)
Realy irrelevant? Nasz 18:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The SIG redirect was going to the goddess rather than the rune
—Preceding unsigned comment added by ASH1977LAW ( talk • contribs) 11:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't look like spam to me. I glanced through the article - full of typos, but English is not the author's native language. Here's the link:
Someone check this out please? Cbdorsett 09:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I created a Runic table at User:Wakuran/Runic_Table with some of the more striking correspondences between the Elder Futhark and the Greek and Latin alphabets. I wonder if it could be useful, or if it's too unwieldy for the article. Probably some of the more probable alternate variants of Etruscan, Western Greek and Old Italic alphabets should be added, as well, if someone has images for these letter variants. Please give comments. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 10:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I am very disturbed by this unsourced statements concercing the West Germanic hypothesis:
"However, it should be noted that the differences between Proto-Norse and other Germanic dialects were still minute and that the classification is mostly based on location rather than forms. References to unknown tribes are received with doubt."
Here the author takes the liberty to evaluate a scholarly investigation without resorting to a valid reference. According to his personal views?
The editor fails to review the facts within the new context created to this West Germanic hypothesis by itself. My footnote concerning the most obvious consequence to this West Germanic hypothesis - that the Proto-Norse identity of the first runes would have to be reconsidered before making such a statement since this might even invalidate all preliminary conclusions about language differences - was silently deleted by the author. Indeed, something should be noted before trying to invalidate a theory using loose arguments.
All arguments are put forward to cast doubts on a certain theory. This is not the task of Wikipedia. Although I normally value logic, however, I consider the current arguments shaky, so I think this phrase should be properly sourced or deleted at all. Like this I would easily mistake the phrase for OR and POV. Rokus01 00:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Please display your knowledge of Begging the question in assuming an argument in favour of "differences between Proto-Norse and other Germanic dialects were still minute", with all we know about Proto-Norse being runes theorized here to be West Germanic. Since this kind of phoney counter arguments against such a West Germanic hypothsis are not sourced, I am justified in suspecting OR. The Northwest Germanic theory only has significance within the context of this runes whose "scantiness .... makes it impossible to be sure of the relationship of this language to Germanic and its daughter languages. It is traditionally known as Scandinavian but shows few if any distinctively North Germanic features and MAY reflect a stage, sometimes called Northwest Germanic" (Britannica, 22:650). However, the generally accepted archeological view is explained in Britannica 22:642. 750BC: a relatively uniform Germanic spoken from the Netherlands to the Vistula and southern Scandinavia (by the way, where is Jastorf? never mind); 250BC five general groups are distinguishable, including North Germanic, North Sea Germanic, Rhine Weser Germanic, Elbe Germanic and East Germanic. You see? No Northwestern Germanic mentioned in this list. Indeed, North Germanic + Northsea Germanic + Rhine-Weser Germanic shared a sound change, but the same has been argued to apply to Northsea Germanic and a later stage of (Roman-?)Keltic (k=>sj in cheese and chateaux): this is not enough to assume small differences - I've even heard of sound changes being triggered by language contacts. A language continuum, I agree, but what would this mean more than to assume non-representative local dialects?
"However, it should be noted that the differences between Proto-Norse and other Germanic dialects were still minute and that the classification is mostly based on location rather than forms. References to unknown tribes are received with doubt."
No, I try but can't make any sense out of this all too obvious an example of OR. I would appreciate you could find a source supporting all of this. Who says the Britannica classification is based on location? And so what, does this support your claim that Germanic languages did not differentiate enough to be distinguisable? Who's theory is this and where it says so? And who received the references to unknown tribes with doubt? I really want to know. Rokus01 23:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Berig, read and notice I address the objections to a theory for being both unsourced and private. I am willing to add a {{fact}} tag ONLY if the existence of sources -able to support a certain statement- is reasonable to assume. I already explained extensively above why here such is not the case. I summarize:
In short, the edit is unacceptable "as is". If removal is not an option, I would rather propose the following: "However, it should be noted that differences between Germanic languages still might have been minute. The nomer Proto-Norse would continue to be based on location, without reflecting any (North Germanic) classification based on linguistic forms. References to unknown tribes could increase our knowledge of the Germanic culture, but fail to support new divisions along linguistic lines." Rokus01 22:13, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Rokus, your basic understanding that sources should be responsibly cited is correct. However, you continue to nitpick in an unconstructive manner. It is far from clear what you are trying to achieve, but it appears that it is ultimately about some private obsession of yours regarding Proto-Germanic and the Netherlands. I still don't quite understand what you want, but it appears you have a bee in your bonnet about some native and ancient specifically West-Germanic culture rooted in your native soil. In other words, boring old national mysticism. Instead of trying to insert whatever it is you prefer to believe, you take to sniping at perfectly mainstream statements, which is alwasy possible since, surprise surprise, nothing in Iron Age linguistics is dead certain or undisputed. It is true that the phrasing "minute" could be altered to something less assertive, but that's really it. A minor matter of more careful phrasing, nothing that needs to be drawn out into a vitriolic dispute. The difference between Germanic dialects of the 2nd century AD certainly was rather minor (give us one major isogloss between Proto-North-Germanic and Proto-West-Germanic!) dab (𒁳) 11:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The page Runic alphabet give no clue on how the punctuation marks are used. Can someone cite a hint?
Punctuation | Name | Description of usage | Example of usage |
---|---|---|---|
᛫ | single punctuation | ? | ? |
᛬ | multiple punctuation | ? | ? |
᛭ | cross punctuation | ? | ? |
ThanX NevilleDNZ 10:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I suspect (based on a "modern example") that the "᛭" runic-cross is actually a form of quotation mark. Can someone comment or provide an original example? NevilleDNZ 05:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
as with the rest of the runic blocks, these are really glyphs, not characters. It was completely arbitrary to include those, and not others (like triple dots etc.), or common bindrunes. The Skåäng Runestone has little crosses as word dividers. Other inscriptions use other "punctuation". You cannot say "this or that symbol was used in this or that sense". Frankly, the Unicode encoding of the runic alphabet as it stands is patently pointless, since you'll only ever want to give the runic letters when they are not standard in some way. The block would have had to encode the complete set of letter variants to be useful. dab (𒁳) 07:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
ThanX for that. The Skåäng Runestone is a useful example.
The thing that prompted my query is the 1950s/60s German ALCOR (pre-ASCII) computer character set. This character set includes the runic cross, eg http://homepages.cwi.nl/~dik/english/codes/5tape.html#alcor. (and is also refered to as a iron cross). Certainly in Germany - in the 1930s - using Runic characters was "trendy", eg ᛋᛋ. But I would like to figure out why the "᛭" suddenly appears in only the 1960s German ALGOL character set. I guess I need to search elsewhere. ThanX NevilleDNZ 07:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, aside from the Jerusalem cross (☩), I also found the Maltese Cross (✠). Your 1813 vintage cross potent seems quite likely. NevilleDNZ 11:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
are there really no runes in all of Finland?? EVER. also inscriptions from when?? I still write runes - are those inscriptions? do they count? I think could be better written. also contradicts article as some runes in north America, Russia - are these included in this corpus? is it just stones? or books too? vis. morla stone and http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9529/scanrus.htm be good to know where source is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.198.49.178 ( talk) 17:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not disputing the fact that that Macleod and Mees reference is a valid one but does anyone think that that part should be deleted because there isn't any note to that reference. For all we know the editor could have made that up. If no one responds to this query then I'll assume that no one cares and delete it myself (It's in the magic section). Lighthead þ 23:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It is incredible how this article is featured, and there is nothing written in it about the bulgarian runes, probably one of the first runic alphabets used in Europe. Here's a table http://mathstat.helsinki.fi/~noykova/Neli%20Noykova%20Finnish%20language%20course_files/image002.jpg and some other things about it http://www.kroraina.com/pb_lang/pbl_2_9.html -- Tangra —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.248.190 ( talk) 13:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
yes, this sometimes comes up in Slavic national mysticist fringecruft. We used to have an article on this, but I can't find it now (maybe it was deleted). The Kuban alphabet of the Turkic Bulgars is a bona fide separate topic otoh. -- dab (𒁳) 17:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I've got it, the keyword is "черъты и рѣзы" ("черти и резки"/"черты и резы"). This is the term Chernorizets Hrabar uses for a sign system of the early Slavs. The Russian article is at ru:Славянские руны (!), the English one at Pre-Cyrillic Slavic writing. We could link it from the "see also" section here. dab (𒁳) 17:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems that when I see the image version of Uruz here on Wikipedia, it is a straight line with another line pointing out to the side reaching the bottom. I've only seen this with Junicode. Every other runic font I have used (Code2001, Skiers, etc) or seen has a "staple style" uruz which looks like the corresponding character in the Gothic alphabet. Which one is correct here? Jacques Pirat Talk 22:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Ah, that makes sense. Thank you. Jacques Pirat Talk 20:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I removed the calculations of the number of runic inscriptions in the Scandinavian countries divided by the area of the Scandinavian countries in square kilometers. First of all, it clearly qualifies as Original Research, but more importantly, it's irrelevant and misleading, for these reasons: The calculations are based on the area of the Nordic countries, as of 2007. The present borders of Denmark date from after the first world war, and of Sweden and Norway also from modern times. The number of square kilometers these countries make up today bears no relevance to the world in which the runic inscriptions were made. Norway and Sweden contain large tracts of uninhabited mountains and forests, which Denmark does not. The northern parts of Sweden and Norway were not populated, or at least only very scarcely, by old Norse speaking rune-users in the time period when runes were used. About one sixth of the area of Norway, as used in the table, is made up of Svalbard, which wasn't even discovered until the 12th century (probably), and even today only has a semi-permanent population. If one wants to say something meaningful about the geographical distribution of runic inscriptions, this isn't the way to do it, this is just a meaningless game with numbers. What could be interesting is pointing out clusters of runic inscriptions, smaller areas where especially large numbers might have been found (such as the Bryggen inscriptions in Bergen, or the Maeshowe inscriptions), and so on. -- Barend ( talk) 15:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I where the one who added the number of runic inscriptions per square kilometer. I agree that info about clusters of runic inscriptions would be awesome. But none of the less a "per square kilometer" row, is in my opinion not at all misleading in any way. It's not a competition, about where there are most runic inscriptions or anything. Svalbard being a part of Norway, now and not then, is not the point. It's a standard statistic info, witch inform of the whereabouts of the Vikings, and indeed the viking placements of the rune stones, in the country borders we know now. Just as number of runic inscriptions are placed in. I only added calculations for the Scandinavian countries, hoping others would add, calculations for the others. This is my first talk page edit, hope I'm doing it right. UlrikOldenburg ( talk) 21:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Staveless runes lack HORIZONTAL strokes, NOT vertical. You can see this clearly in the image. Also, a stave (aka "staff") is a horizontal bar. It's obvious what it should be but someone keeps changing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.126.170.20 ( talk) 22:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
FYI, you can add a link to Portal:Norway in this article, by placing {{Portal|Norway}} at the top of the see also section (or the external links section if the article has no see also section). This will display
Cirt ( talk) 09:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi, what is the above supposed to mean? Nasality of vowels can be independent from vowel quality (in terms of formant frequencies). -- Kjoon lee 16:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
there is some discussion on what to do with the articles on the individual runes. Many of them are certainly stubby and need attention. Although it is better to have an informative stub than a rambling page of nonsense. Bloodofox ( talk · contribs) thinks they are a "mess" in need of standardization. See here and here. We are looking at the following issues:
anyway, informed third opinions are welcome. I am presenting the question here (as boo should have done) to allow centralized discussion between interested parties. I would certainly welcome further expansion and cleanup of the rune articles as long as it happens with expertise and circumspection. If there is an interest in "standardization" of these articles, I refer to the thought I have put into "infoboxes" further up on this page (February 2006). this arrangement is flexible enough to capture the key data of each rune (with some fields remaining empty depending on the situation). I'll try to implement this in a {{ runic letter}} template. dab (𒁳) 09:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Though this topic is something I wanted to tackle as part of a coordinated Ancient Germanic studies project, it seems that important decisions are being made now. I would like to come back to a point raised earlier: a 'standardized' outline. Do either of you have any concrete ideas here? I was thinking something like the following:
Criticism is expected - but so are concrete alternative proposals. Ideas? — Aryaman (Enlist!) 11:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I would advise against artificial standardization of article names. WP:NAME tells us to pick the most common name for the topic. For a well-attested rune like the g rune, this may well be gyfu, while for an obscure rune like p, this may indeed be "p rune". Runes that survive both in Anglo-Saxon and Younger Futhark rows, the runes will be known by at least two names, depending on context (strictly speaking, an Anglo-Saxon f rune is not the "same" letter as a YF f rune, but not even Unicode makes this distinction). WP:UCS on a case by case basis will be needed there. dab (𒁳) 18:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
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I deleted this following the guidance at WP:EL and [4] which says:
Webpages in English are highly preferred. Linking to non-English pages may still be useful for readers in the following cases:
when the website is the subject of the article
when linking to pages with maps, diagrams, photos, tables (explain the key terms with the link, so that people who do not know the language can interpret them)
when the webpage contains key or authoritative information found on no English-language site and is used as a citation (or when translations on English-language sites are not authoritative).
Particularly we already have slightly more links than we should have, I'd like to know the rationale for having this one. Dougweller ( talk) 11:02, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
this isn't about the Russian bits at all. The question is, should we link to Jon Olafsson of Grunnavik's MS. Runologia. This seems to be a notable early (18th century) work on runology. As long as we keep a separate runology article discussing the history of research, this manuscript should probably be discussed there. Better yet, we need an English equivalent of the is:Jón Grunnvíkingur article. Just linking to an 18th century treatise on runology without comment isn't very helpul. -- dab (𒁳) 08:58, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I note we have a redlink to Jón Ólafsson (runologist) at Jón Ólafsson. This is the article we should develop, and the alfatruin.msk.ru link would properly be placed there. -- dab (𒁳) 09:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
It is claimed here [5] that the Runnic scripts and the ancient Turkic (Gokturk) scripts may have some relation between each other. Has any further search done about this yet? Some signs/letters in Gokturk Runes look really similar, especially a, i, u etc.. Yasakresim ( talk) 22:34, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Even if the instructions found on the linked page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Special_characters the runic characters are still not displayed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.184.65 ( talk) 11:44, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
The article mentions three punctuation marks for Runic. From what I can discern from my copy of the Hobbit (yes, an original runic source! :) ), it seems that the single punctuation was used instead of a space, and the multiple punctuation instead of a full-stop, but I'm unable to find anything concerning the use of the cross punctuation. Would anyone like to amend the article to fix this? -- TimNelson ( talk) 04:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Unlike mentioned in the text, "runot" means "poems" not "song" in Finnish language. ( 84.248.114.173 ( talk) 00:18, 8 April 2012 (UTC))
Shouldn't the caption "Unicode" better be "Typesetting in computer systems"? Because that would enable it to be more general and allow information like "Runes can be produces in LaTeX with various packages such as the Futhark, Anglo-Saxon Futharc or the more general packages Runic or Allrunes." Would that be appropriate? Peterthewall ( talk) 11:35, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
How do I get the intext runic to display on my computere. on every lemma about rune's I only get squares when ever there is a unicode rune used.
via the special character help page I changed my settings utf8 and sett my lettertype to a Unicode one. but for both Chrome and IE this does not do the trick.
Ian Splinter ( talk) 10:06, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
It is obvious on the Franks Casket that the runes, along with moving left-to-right when on the top, also move top-to-bottom if on the right side, right-to-left if on the bottom, and bottom-to-top if on the left side. I have no clue how to change it in the box on the right on the page. If someone knows how, that person should fix it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JCLarsson ( talk • contribs) 23:35, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
It was founded by Euboean Greeks who used a local variant of the Greek alphabet, the Euboean alphabet. This alphabet developed into the Latin alphabet, the world's most widely used phonemic script, after it was adopted and modified first by the Etruscans (800–100 BC) and then by the Romans (300–100 BC).-- 151.46.171.113 ( talk) 20:15, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
"Historically, the runic alphabet is a derivation of the Old Italic alphabets of antiquity, with the addition of some innovations. Which variant of the Old Italic family in particular gave rise to the runes is uncertain. Suggestions include Raetic, Etruscan, or Old Latin as candidates. At the time, all of these scripts had the same angular letter shapes suited for epigraphy, which would become characteristic of the runes". And since the current scientific standpoint seems to be that noone knows which of the old Italic alphabets Runes derived from, and the section about the Etruscan alphabet in the article about the Old Italic script says that
"It is not clear whether the process of adaptation from the Greek alphabet took place in Italy from the first colony of Greeks, the city of Cumae, or in Greece/Asia Minor", a direct link between Runes and the subvariety of the Euboean alphabet used in Cumae hasn't been proven. Thomas.W talk 09:50, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Any source for perth meaning pear-tree? The first thing that comes to my mind when I see or hear it is the Swedish word Pärta, which means Shingle(Wooden Roof Tile) and that might possibly be a more logical sollution since I don't really know how common pear trees were in northern Europe in the Middle Ages, but I know wooden roofs were very common. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.72.226.49 ( talk) 14:12, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
I have re-reverted an edit in which the origin of the runes from Phoenician letters is added to the lede. IP, please provide your sources here. Yngvadottir ( talk) 12:57, 16 September 2013 (UTC) ... I've now tracked down what the IP is misunderstanding: Phoenician letters are listed in the infobox at Elder futhark as the parent of the Italic alphabets thought to be the source of the rune forms. That does not amount to immediate derivation from Phoenician or any other Levantine alphabet. Yngvadottir ( talk) 13:15, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Whilst translating an academic book from the Spanish I have just come across a silver Roman denarius dated at the second century BC. This coin has six runic characters making a word on the reverse. I am attempting to identify the head of which Emperor appears on the face. If confirmed it will shift the date of the first known runic script back by three centuries. Geoffreybrooks ( talk) 14:14, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/date/2012/05/page/3 http://www.zbsa.eu/news/news-2012/oldest-evidence-of-westgermanic-language
In 2003 another comb, with a runic inscription KABA, dating to the 3rd century AD, was found in Frienstedt, City of Erfurt. It has been claimed that "this is the earliest proof of the West Germanic language", but I strongly contest such a claim. The hypothetical Proto-Germanic language has the word "kambaz" with Z, but not KAMBA or KABA without Z.
The letters on the Frienstedt comb KABA are to be read as “Ka(m)ba, and of course in modern Finnish the word KAMPA is the word for comb.
Funny that IN THIS CASE the meaning of the word KABA is not disputed... This supports my previous theory, that the word HARJA on the Vimose Comb, too, simply denotes the object and is not a name of the owner.
Let's again keep in mind that until c. 500 AD runes were mainly used in Fennoscandia/Scandinavia, and from 100BC until at least 1000AD practically the entire Fennoscandian and Baltic area was ruled by Finnish tribes. 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 12:40, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
You have exactly 24 hours to disprove what I have written and if you are unable to do so, nothing will stop me from reversing my edits back the way I did them. I'm willing to explain and reference things to anyone interested. To you, however, I will only respond when you have shown me the sources I'm asking for. Do not bother filling this conversation with your personal nonsensical and unscientific views, because nobody is interested in you. If you have no documents to show, do not waste my time. 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 18:14, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
More information supporting previous information:
http://runer.ku.dk/VisGenstand.aspx?Titel=Vimose-kam - "Tolkes som runeristerens eller ejerens navn. Et alternativt forslag er, at harja kan oversættes med 'kam' (Seebold 1994, 71)." Translation: “An alternative suggestion is that HARJA can be translated as a “comb”.”
The Swedish expert Ove Berg writes in his book “Runsvenska, svenska, finska” (published in 2003) that “he has been able to translate older runes with Finnish rather than with Swedish”. http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=185&artikel=375080 http://www.books.google.com/books?isbn=9163129868 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 22:05, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Professor of Phonetics Kalevi Wiik wrote in 1999: "My most decisive claim is that the Germanic, Baltic and Slavic languages were born under the influence of the Finno-Ugrian languages in the context of a shift in language from Finno-Ugrian to Indo-European." http://www.finlit.fi/booksfromfinland/bff/399/wiik.htm
The Swedish Henrik O. Andersson, too, writes in his book: "Finska element i svenska ortnamn", ISBN 91-86016-29-6, that "Many things speak in favor of the Finnish language being the linguistic forerunner of the Germanic languages in Northern Europe. Swedish place names bear witness to this most clearly." 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 12:08, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
"Harja" (= brush, comb in modern Finnish) is not a Germanic word. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/harja - http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2636328
Suggesting that runes are in Germanic languages only, is not based on factual information nor probability but on mere biased speculation.
http://www.emersonkent.com/images/maps/europe_814.jpg
Northern Europe in and after the time of the first known runes was ruled by the Finns/Kvens, so it's only logical that runes were used - at least - to write the Finnish (Finnic/Finno-Ugric) language. Also, the word HARJA found on the Vimose Comb did exist in the Finnic/Finnish language already in 150-160 AD, but it did not exist as such in the Germanic languages.
The whole article must be rewritten if Wikipedia wants to be considered a reliable source of information. 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 17:26, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
The Vimose Comb reads HARJA, NOT HARJAZ. In Finnish HARJA means the thing you brush your hair with, so it's obvious the text on the Vimose Comb is in Finnish. 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 23:21, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Above a direct translation from Häkkinen's much-lauded etymological dictionary, p. 171. Kaisa Häkkinen: Nykysuomen etymologinen sanakirja, s. 935. Helsinki: WSOY, 2004. ISBN 951-0-27108-x Parameter error in {{ ISBN}}: invalid character.
No mention of a Germanic origin and indeed, such a word does not exist even in the hypothetical Proto-Germanic language. Only the word harjaZ may exist. (In Proto-Germanic names the first name element lost its -z ending during the combination of both name elements, for instance the words *harjaz and *wulfaz were not combined as *Harjazwulfaz but as *Harjawulfaz.) HARJA alone would have been an impossible word.
Would you kindly present the links you refer to, that prove my point wrong without a doubt? Thank you in advance. 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 01:19, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Two sources supporting the theory that the text HARJA on the Vimose Comb denotes the object:
Kabell, Aage. "Harja. In: Zeitschrift für deutsches Altertum und deutsche Literatur, 102, 1973, 1-15." HARJA. Übersetzung: "das zu den Haaren gehörige (=Kamm)"
Seebold, Elmar. "Die sprachliche Deutung und Einordnung der archaischen Runeninschriften. In: Runische Schriftkultur in kontinental-skandinavischer und -angelsächsischer Wechselbeziehung. Internationales Symposium in der Werner-Reimers-Stiftung vom 24.-27. Juni 1992 inBad Homburg, (hg.) Düwel, Klaus. Berlin, New York 1994, 56-94." HARJA. Übersetzung: "den Kamm"
http://www.runenprojekt.uni-kiel.de/abfragen/standard/deutung2.asp?findno=20&ort=Vimose&objekt=Kamm 91.155.236.125 ( talk) 12:41, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
W.Grimm ("On german runes"/ "Über deutsche Runen") relates the term Markomannen to Hrabanus Maurus contemporary use for Nordalbingier. Grimms explanation mentions that this geographical term is to be seen from the situation of Fulda Monastery, which was like an outpost of the east frankish dominion, surrounded by so-called "Mark(s)" - boarder regions claimed by both sides, which are subjected to regularely military campaigns. I found that explanation very logical.-- 78.51.53.223 ( talk) 15:11, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Introduction section, 4th paragraph, last sentence: "The Younger Futhark developed further into the Marcomannic runes, the Medieval runes (1100–1500 AD), and the Dalecarlian runes (around 1500–1800 AD)."
BUT: the chronology as suggested by the index contradicts this!:
2.3 "Marcomannic runes" (8th to 9th centuries) 2.4 Younger Futhark (9th to 11th centuries)
Which version is correct?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.204.84.48 ( talk) 19:44, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Hi, sourceless rank amateur here ... Concerning the continued use of runes after introduction of the latin alphabet, it seems reasonable/a man in the pub told me that while paper and ink were scarce and expensive, knives and wood chips were ubiquitous and free, which would give at least an economic explanation. And aren't the non-vertical strokes almost all diagonals precisely in order to allow easier carving in wood? Or did I miss something about that? T 88.89.219.147 ( talk) 15:13, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Bluetooth is a Scandinavian invention whose symbol that exists on every modern electronic device is made from Runes. Should be here. 184.155.130.147 ( talk) 22:45, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
הראש ( talk) 23:32, 6 May 2015 (UTC) On your curtain? Is this some alleged "hate crime"? Since you are Jewish...
What language is it in? 119.92.93.84 ( talk) 13:37, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
Were runes often inscribed so as to run left-to-right on one line and right-to-left on the following line? Runes might then be included in the Boustrophedon article. Kortoso ( talk) 19:03, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Part of this article uses modern typography (Elder Futhark) and part medieval (Anglo-Saxon runes: "The fuþorc"). The article is written in modern English, and therefore ought to follow modern English conventions and use "th" in place or thorn or eth. As things stand it is confusing and unnecessarily complex for those unused to medieval texts. Do others agree before I go through using the "th" form? Martin of Sheffield ( talk) 22:08, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
Done Martin of Sheffield ( talk) 11:48, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
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This is not the same, and Futharken should not be redirected to this article. Whilst runes are the letters used in Scandinavia , the alphabet for the runes is known as Futharken (or Futarken). Futarken is a later invention, the runes during their first 300-400 years of usage wasn't sorted in to an alphabet. Futharken is an invention from the times (approximately 1050-1150 AD) when the latin letters first were introduced to Scandinavia. Although not a valid source, this facebook page explains it rather well (in Swedish though) https://www.facebook.com/timetraveltourssweden/posts/runor-det-finns-flera-olika-runalfabeten-vilket-kanske-inte-%C3%A4r-j%C3%A4ttek%C3%A4nt-av-den-/1147447111957493/ (The Vikinger could read and write but their runes wasn't standardised, runes has also been used in central Europe but was replaced with latin letters earlier than farther north) Boeing720 ( talk) 20:15, 19 January 2019 (UTC)