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Rumi's homeland-Balkh region-has the native population of Tājīks who were called "Persian" at the time. I can give many sources to prove that Tājīks are the native inhabitants of Balkh region. Both "Persian" and "Tājīk" must be used as the ETHNICITY of Rumi to AVOID CONFUSION (even though Tājīks are part of Persian people, but they are called Tājīk today). Those who deny this fact, they seem as if they are stealing the cultural heritage of the native population of the region and this is totally unacceptable. Artacoana 11:50, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Decisions in Wikipedia is just based on reliable sources, not idea of users. Sources say Rumi was a Persian. -- Aliwiki ( talk) 13:25, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Tajiks are East-Persians, so by calling Rumi for a Persian also includes tajiks.
--
85.165.212.65 (
talk) 14:43, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
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It would be great if this wiki page helped people to pronounce rumi's first and last name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.80.128.108 ( talk) 17:28, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Sean Stone, the 27-year-old son of director Oliver Stone, has become a Shiite Muslim during a visit to Iran; he is working on a documentary about the 13th-century Persian Muslim poet and mystic Rumi.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/shortcuts/2012/feb/15/sean-stone-muslim-religion-hollywood — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 ( talk) 21:07, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
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The usage of New Persian is superfluous. Being a native Persian speaker, it sounded very weird to me. The current Persian (or Dari) language is in fact the "New" or "Modern" Persian which started to flourish around 1000 years ago in Khorasan.
MaxNajma ( talk) 18:28, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Not done: PLease detail what you would like to change in a 'please change X to Y' manner and provide a reliable source. Thanks,
Celestra (
talk) 23:12, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
I turned up here following a reference to Jalau'l-Din Rimi in Scott Peck's Further Along the Road Less Travelled, and was surprised to find myself in an article headed Rumi. I imagine you are going to answer that this is the name he is know as within the community - but would a forwarder to this article therefore be appropriate? Ender's Shadow Snr ( talk) 12:54, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
The article seems to have a quarrel with the "portrayal in the West [of Rumi] as a proponent of non-denominational spirituality" and scoffs at people who in the eyes of the authors, propagated this view. Even to the extend that Coleman Barks, who - it's even mentioned in the article - has done more then anyone else to make the name Rumi known in the West, is not cited among the translators. I think this reflects a 'partial' view - although I am well aware that it is very hard to say anything about Rumi that isn't partial, apart from the historical facts (and I am glad that the article is NOT limited to reciting the the historical facts).
My main quarrel would be with this text in the article: "However, despite the aforementioned ecumenical attitude, and contrary to his contemporary portrayal in the West as a proponent of non-denominational spirituality, a number of Rumi poems suggest the importance of outward religious observance, the primacy of the Qur'an." These words, I think, reflect the urge to place, to fixate, Rumi in some or other pigeon hole: "he may have said this and that, but what he REALLY thought was ..." I think this is just one opinion amongst others; there are no historical grounds for this claim. More importantly: I think these attemtps to 'claim' Rumi are selling him short. In my opinion, if he expressed himself, as he did quite often, in ways which at first sight seem contradictory, this very contradiction is an essential part of his thinking and of his legacy. Personally, I do not even see a contradiction here. My sufi teacher used to point his muslim mureeds continually towards the Koran. But me, a (wandering and wondering) jew, he directed towards Torah and Talmud and he stimulated me to adhere to the rules and rituals of my faith. Not for a moment did I or anyonyone else of his mureeds see these diverse advices as 'contradictory'. Please forgive me this personal digression; I only meant to illustrate that even the use of the word 'contrary' in the above sentence reflects an opinion one could argue with.
I would propose to replace the aforementioned text, and the preceding paragraph under the heading of "Universality", which seems written as a prelude to the subsequent denial of this 'universality'. I would propose:
"One of the most quoted sentences of Rumi's is: 'Christian, Jew, Muslim, shaman, Zoroastrian, stone, ground, mountain, river, each has a secret way of being with the mystery, unique and not to be judged' and one of his (in the West) most recited poems begins with: 'Muslims! What can I do? I have lost my identity! I am not a Christian, Jew, pagan, or Muslim. I am neither an Easterner nor a Westerner, neither a land nor a sea person. Nature can't fully account for me, nor can the whirling cosmos.' These quotations may give a sense of the universality of Rumi's concept of 'the Beloved' and and his recognition of, and respect for, the many paths of the seeker."
I also protest against the over-long an over-detailed introduction depicting Rumi as 'a poet' from a bygone era. The Rumi I know is far more then a poet and he is not dead at all; he is a living inspiration and guidance for many. I sorely miss this actual relevance in the introduction and in the article itself. I'll try to come up with something better, but let's first see if anyone responds to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mabelis ( talk • contribs) 19:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
i think that the use of the word farsi to describe the language of Rumi,is more approriate.i lived in iran.nobody said they spoke Persian.they said they spoke Farsi.Persian is a western imposition,and inditcates a trend toward deislamification of Iran in western media.followers of Zoraster are called Pars in India.i like them.i have no problem with them.but possibly unintentionally the author of this article is giving the United states policy on Iran towards calling it Persia instead of Iran and calling Tahk-te-jamshid Persepolis for purposes of undermining the importance of Islam in Iran the help it desires. would Rumi want that?i very much doubt it. in the same vain to call the inhabitants Persians or even Iranians is also a weird westernisation.please say:Iranis.they speak "farsi" also 'bahlk' should have a capital 'B'. persian cats and carpets are o.k.but people????i say no. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.66.121.19 ( talk) 05:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
This is nonsense! the proper name of this language in English is Persian. 'de-Islamification' and Western imposition is ridiculous. Nobody in Poland calls their language Polish, they call is 'polski'. so we should stop using Polish as it would be a Western imposition?
Also followers of Zoroaster in India are called Parsee not Pars or Persian. You need to study more and improve your English language much more than this. BrokenMirror2 ( talk) 20:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
On the other hand, Rumi lived in Turkey, and contributed to Turkish society first of all. Therefore, most of the contemporary authors call him as "Turkish mystic poet", not "Persian mystic poet" because he didn't live in Persia and never be a part of Persian society. Let's look what others say:
I understand MatthewVanitas is trying to be helpful, thanks. If people are not ready to accept Rumi as Turk (because he was not a mighty, fierce fighter?) what else can we do other than accepting compromise solutions of avoiding to add to him an alien identity... (I guess Rumi was more Martian than Persian but alas...) Although if I were MV I would not go into the casual reader in BBAA thing, as the concepts about Turks, Arabs, moslems etc are quite complicated in and around that area. Call Rumi whatever you wish, all the same they would put him in the quite wide "turco" basket; which is not a problem for me... -- E4024 ( talk) 22:09, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
I went in and made some modifications, primarily with the intent of making the WP:Lede more accessible to a wider public, and to remove any highly contentious issue (i.e. heritage) which simply can't be discussed at length in a lede. To reduce bulk, I also created a "Name" section where we detail all the terms he is known by. It's just simply not feasible to discuss eight different names in the lede without compromising legibility. I also removed the way too glib/conclusive "Persian heritage", and instead have a sentence at the end of the first para simply saying "it's a contested issue", and noting he lived in Rum and wrote primarily in Persian.
The (somewhat) downside is that some of my moves chopped out huge wads of references. Not necessarily a huge number so much as massive walls of footnote text arguing one case or another. Let us definitely bear those in mind for going back to old drafts to check for any good footnotes, but I submit we carefully pick and avoid the following:
So that's where we're at so far. Can a few folks take a look and tell me if the lede looks less controversial, more focused on basic fundamental facts, and more legible? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 16:06, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Unfortunately due to the messed up situation in the Persian speaking lands (Iran, Tajikistan and Afghanistan), some neighbors are trying to appropriate the Persian heritage (note Afghan, Tajik and Iranian are the inheritors of this) while normal Iranians, Tajiks, Afghans are struggling with political realities. And unfortunately, unaware users try to assist this endevours.
Google books:
Please see Wikipedia's policty about weight and fix the article appropriately.
Also I should mention I can put 1000+ links for "Persian poet Rumi" from google books. So given the fact that the "Turkish poet" Rumi is not an opinion held by any alive Rumi scholar (including Halmann), then one needs to give proper weight to the issue. Else I urge Iranian users to bring 500+ books from google books that puts Persian to show what the proper weight in google books is. Turkish users do not have a single significant alive scholar such as Franklin to backup their point of view. [23]." Please tell me how could such a person be a Turk when he contrasts Greeks so positively against Turks (in a non-poetic setting without any symbolism)? ( [24].) Thanks. -- 96.255.251.165 ( talk) 05:28, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Also their comparison to Latin is a dead-end..as Rumi's lectures are in Persian..Note his lectures were to his students and they are almost all in Persian (with two in Arabic) and none in Turkish. Or his Friday sermons are all in Persian. His son has claimed poor knowledge of Turkish and Greek.. -- 96.255.251.165 ( talk) 07:05, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
One can only quote scholars who write authoritatively about Rumi. The most important biography is now that of Franklin Lewis. Encyclopaedia of Islam also calls him a Persian poet. I'll respond to the proponents of the Turkish theory (absolute fringe) below and their unsound arguments. However, what I want to emphasize is Wikipedia works by weight. 2000+ and 370+ google books call Rumi a "Persian poet" and "Persian mystic" respectively. Wikipedia needs to reflect the most authoritative sources such as a Franklin and the most widely used convention. Else quote a minor random book is like quoting a minor random book that claims Obama is a Muslim. Unless a book is about the biography of Rumi himself (such as Franklin), I think it takes a back set.
Unfortunately, some users have not WP:RS, WP:UNDUE and WP:Weight.
Google books:
(Note four of the books are repeated,many from Turkish authors and none of them specifically deal with Rumi)
Please see Wikipedia's policty about weight and fix the article appropriately.
WP:UNDO is very clear.
Per
WP:UNDO
Now here are two secondary sources clearly showing that the Turkish (nationalist) viewpoint is fringe theory.
“ | “The Turks claim Jelaleddin as their, although a Persian of royal race, born of Balkh, old Bactra, on the groundoof his having sung and died in Qoniya, in Asia Minor… whence he was called Rumi “The Roman,” usually rendered “the Greek,” as wonning with the confies of Oriental Rome” | ” |
That portion is obvious.
Rumi's works are written in the New Persian and his Mathnawi (Masnavi) remains one of the purest literary glories of Persia [1] and a crowning achievement of the Persian language [2]. A Persian literary renaissance (in the 8th/9th century), alonside the development of Sufism [3], started in regions of Sistan, Khorāsān and Transoxiana [4] and by the 10th/11th century, it reinforced the Persian language as the preferred literary and cultural language in the Persian Islamic world. Rumi's importance is considered to transcend national and ethnic borders. His original works are widely read today in their original language across the Persian-speaking world( Iran, Tajikistan, Afghanistan and parts of Persian speaking Central Asia) [5]. Translations of his works are very popular in other countries. His poetry has influenced Persian literature as well as Urdu, Punjabi, Turkish and some other Iranic, Turkic and Indic languages written in Perso/Arabic script e.g. Pashto, Ottoman Turkish, Chagatai language and Sindhi. His poems have been widely translated into many of the world's languages and transposed into various formats. In 2007, he was described as the "most popular poet in America." [6]
He was born to native Persian speaking parents [7] [8] [9], likely in the village of Wakhsh, [10] a small town located at the river Wakhsh in Persia (in what is now Tajikistan). Wakhsh belonged to the larger province of Balkh (parts of now modern Afghanistan and Tajikistan), and in the year Rumi was born, his father was an appointed scholar there. [10].
Greater Balkh was at that time a major center of a Perso-Islamic culture [9] [11] [12] and Khorasani Sufism had developed there for several centuries. Ineed, the most important influences upon Rumi, besides his father, are said to be the Persian poets Attar and Sanai [13]. Rumi in one poem express his appreciation to Attar and Sanai:"Attar was the spirit, Sanai his eyes twain, And in time thereafter, Came we in their train" [14] and mentions in another poem: "Attar has traversed the seven cities of Love, We are still at the turn of one street" [15].
He lived most of his life under the Persianate [16] [17] [18]Seljuq Sultanate of Rum, where he produced his works [19] and died in 1273 AD. He was buried in Konya and his shrine became a place of pilgrimage. [20] Following his death, his followers and his son Sultan Walad founded the Mevlevi Order, also known as the Order of the Whirling Dervishes, famous for its Sufi dance known as the Sama ceremony. He was laid to rest beside his father, and over his remains a splendid shrine was erected. A hagiographical account of him is described in Shams ud-Din Ahmad Aflāki's Manāqib ul-Ārifīn (written between 1318 and 1353). This hagiographical account of his biography needs to be treated with care as it contains both legends and facts about Rumi. [21] For example, Professor Franklin Lewis, Chicago University, in the most complete biography on Rumi has a separate section for the hagiographical biography on Rumi and actual biography about him. [22]
References
Professor Lewis has devoted two pages of his book to the topic of Wakhsh, which he states has been identified with the medieval town of Lêwkand (or Lâvakand) or Sangtude, which is about 65 kilometers southeast of Dushanbe, the capital of present-day Tajikistan. He says it is on the east bank of the Vakhshâb river, a major tributary that joins the Amu Daryâ river (also called Jayhun, and named the Oxus by the Greeks). He further states: "Bahâ al-Din may have been born in Balkh, but at least between June 1204 and 1210 (Shavvâl 600 and 607), during which time Rumi was born, Bahâ al-Din resided in a house in Vakhsh (Bah 2:143 [= Bahâ' uddîn Walad's] book, "Ma`ârif."). Vakhsh, rather than Balkh was the permanent base of Bahâ al-Din and his family until Rumi was around five years old (mei 16-35) [= from a book in German by the scholar Fritz Meier--note inserted here]. At that time, in about the year 1212 (A.H. 608–609), the Valads moved to Samarqand (Fih 333; Mei 29–30, 36) [= reference to Rumi's "Discourses" and to Fritz Meier's book--note inserted here], leaving behind Baâ al-Din's mother, who must have been at least seventy-five years old."Tajiks and Persian admirers still prefer to call Jalaluddin 'Balkhi' because his family lived in Balkh, current day in Afghanistan before migrating westward. However, their home was not in the actual city of Balkh, since the mid-eighth century a center of Muslim culture in (Greater) Khorasan (Iran and Central Asia). Rather, as the Swiss scholar Fritz Meier has shown, it was in the small town of Wakhsh north of the Oxus that Baha'uddin Walad, Jalaluddin's father, lived and worked as a jurist and preacher with mystical inclinations. Franklin Lewis, Rumi Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings, and Poetry of Jalâl al-Din Rumi, 2000, pp. 47–49.
howisit
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).hagiographer1
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The book by the University of Chicago Professor, Prof. Lewis Franklin is considered the most important biography on Rumi and is highly cited and well reviewed by many authors [32] Here is the website of Dr. Franklin: [33]
Unless, the Turkish theory proponents can bring up a serious Rumi scholar (note the keyword “Rumi scholar”) discussing their viewpoint and giving it credence in academia, then they need to accept the fact that their viewpoint is fringe. Simply, they need to find a scholar on the caliber of Franklin (who knows Persian and has written a biography on Rumi that is widely acclaimed and highly cited) which shares their POV.
The only scholarly source I saw that the Turkish users use was Schimmel. This is their source:
They have also ignored these Schimmel quotes:
Given these, the Turkish users cannot use Schimmel. Also she is a passed away scholar. So one must use alive scholars and currently, the most authoritative book on Rumi's biography is that of Franklin.
Note the last book is published in 1994. So it is the definitive opinion ("Persian Mystic). Of course, if an author gives contradictatory viewpoint, then Wikipedia should not use such a source. But as explained she is simply describing the Turkish viewpoint, and then rejecting it by has described Schimmel is not contradiction but in the first quote is just giving the Turkish viewpoint while rejecting it by her firm statement on Rumi's mothertongue)
Note this is the opinion of a Turkish cultural ambassador of Turkey and not necessarily that of Rumi scholars. But it gives a good Turkish viewpoint of the material. Quote 1 (Talat S. Halman, "Rapture and Revolution: Essays on Turkish Literature", editor by Jayne L. Warner, Syracuse University, 2007, p.265-266) (Please note Halman is the only author and Warner is an editor (perhaps of the series)). Here is the quote:
“The available documentary evidence is so flimsy that no nation can invoke jus sanguinis regarding the Rumi genealogy. Besides, an exploration into his background must take into account such additional factors as the tumultuous life of the area in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, the uncertain lineage of rulers and dynasties, miscegenation, and the identity crises resulting from shifting population and mass conversions to Islam. One must also consider, at least speculatively, that Rumi’s family, living in Balkh, perhaps regarded itself as neither Persian nor Turkish nor Arab nor anything else for that matter but as Muslims, refusing to be assimilated or to identify themselves as Persian or Turkish any more than did the Greeks, Armenians or Jews in Balkh.
Bahauddin and his family eventually settled in Konya, ancient Iconium, in central Anatolia. They brought with them their traditional Persian cultural and linguistic background and found in Konya a firmly entrenched penchant for Persian culture. In terms of Rumi’s cultural orientation – including language, literary heritage, mythology, philosophy, and Sufi legacy – the Iranians have indeed a strongly justifiable claim. All of these are more than sufficient to characterize Rumi as a prominent figure of Persian cultural history. Such a characterization is naturally reinforced by his impact on the succeeding centuries of Persian literature and intellectual life. In the West, scholars have always accepted Rumi as Persian on the basis of his exclusive use of the Persian language and because he remained in the mainstream of Persian cultural heritage. No account seems to have been taken of the Turkish and Afghan claims, except some occasional references such as the one by William Hastie in his introduction to The Festival of Spring, featuring his translations from Rumi’s Divan:
“ | “The Turks claim Jelaleddin as their, although a Persian of royal race, born of Balkh, old Bactra, on the groundoof his having sung and died in Qoniya, in Asia Minor… whence he was called Rumi “The Roman,” usually rendered “the Greek,” as wonning with the confies of Oriental Rome” | ” |
In the Encycloapedia of Islam, B. Carra de Vaud and H. Ritter, in separate enteries, make no reference to Rumi as Persian or Turkish, in fact, no reference at all to the question of nationality.
Quote 2
(Talat S. Halman, "Rapture and Revolution: Essays on Turkish Literature", editor by Jayne L. Warner, Syracuse University, 2007, p.266-267) "The Iranian claim on the grounds of the language is inctrovertible, although some Turkish writers have tried to create the impression that Rumi composed a substantial body of verse in Turkish in addition to Persian. The statistical record is clear: The Mesnevi (Persian: Mathnawi) consists of nearly 26,000 couplets; the Divan-i Kebir (Persian Divan-e Kabir) probably has about 40,000 couplets, although the figure varies greatly. Of this vast output, everything is in Persian except for a handful of poems, couplets, lines, and words Turkish, Arabic, Greek, and Hebrew. ... This is infinitesimal compared with his output in Persian. Rumi is patently Persian on the basis of jus et norma loquendi."
--
My analysis:
-- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 18:25, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
As per the repeated OR Turkish claims on this page, it has been responded to here: [ [36]], and much more extensively here: A Study about the Persian Cultural Legacy and Background of the Sufi Mystics Shams Tabrizi and Jalal al-Din Rumi [37] (which has been suspiciously removed from the external links!).
it is mainly centered on three false arguments:
a)
Claim one: Rumi compares himself to a "Turk".
Response:
(Kafadar, Cemal (2007), "A Rome of One’s Own: Reflections on Cultural Geography and Identity in the Lands of Rum", Muqarnas: An Annual on the Visual Cultures of the Islamic World , vol 24:7-25, Brill.)
Also these people ignore the fact that Rumi has called the Ghuzz (Oguz) Turks as savages several times in the Mathnawi (which does not use allegorical symbols) and the Divan.
Or for example many negative quotes about Turks quoted by Aflaki. These are not poetry anymore and cosequently allegory and symbolism does not imply anymore. Amongst the severe ones:
See:
b) Claim two: Rumi uses "Turkish"...
Not sufficient. Rumi also uses Greek as well and the percentage of Greek/Turkish is less than 1/3 of 1% of his poems.
c) the third wrong claim is that: "Persian was popular poetry language"..
This is again discounted by the fact that Rumi's Friday prayer sermons are recorded in Persian, his letters are in Persian and his lectures to his students are recorded in colloquial Persian. Note colloquial Persian lectures show that Rumi's everyday language is Persian.. how come he has no friday sermons in Turkish? Or no lectures in Turkish? Also Arabic was the everyday religious preaching language but Rumi chose Persian. Also the invalidity of this argument can be seen by examinaning the writings of Rumi's son who is specific in the fact the he does not know Greek/Turkish well. Rumi's colloquial lectures are in Persian and similarly his sermons. However, he does not have a single lecture or sermon in Turkish.
d) A fourth wrong claim: "Rumi lived in Turkey under the protection of Turkish sultans. His tomb is in Turkey and he is considered as a Moslem saint by the Turkish people. Maybe his ethnical background was Persian. But what difference does it make ? (Catherine the Great was a Russian empress. Actually she was of German origin. Do we call her a German empress ?) Anyway, after the last edition to call Rumi a Persian poet, the introductory sentence of the article became too chaotic. ( Please try to read the first sentence with four paranthesis, Arabic alphabet, birth and death dates etc. )"
There was no Turkey then. It was Anatolia and the majority of its population were likely Greeks and Armenians, hence the reason Mowlana chose the epiphet "Rumi" (meaning Greek). Also if an Arab was born in Syria under Saljuq rule, it does not make them Turkish. Bear in mind that the Saljuq rulers usually had Persian viziers and indeed the Saljuqs of Rum during the time of Rumi had the Persian Vizier Moin al-Din Parvana. While forgetting that all of Rumi’s colloquial lectures are in Persian which shows him speaking everyday Persian to his students while he does not have a single lecture, sermon or letter in Turkish). Seljuqs also controlled parts of Syria and Ottomans controlled parts of Iraq, Arabia and etc. It doesn’t mean every Arab or Kurd or etc. there has relationship to modern Turkey. Rumi had of course an influence on Turkish culture and is a universal figure. However, he is known for his poetry which is in Persian and you will need to understand Persian to understand Rumi well.
"While the Arabic language retained its primacy in such spheres as law, theology and science, the culture of the Seljuk court and secular literature within the sultanate became largely Persianized; this is seen in the early adoption of Persian epic names by the Seljuq Rulers (Qubad, Kay Khusraw and so on) and in the use of Persian as a literary language (Turkish must have been essentially a vehicle for everyday speech at this time). The process of Persianization accelerated in the thirteenth century with the presence in Konya of two of the most distinguished refugees fleeing before the Mongols, Baha al-din Walad and his son Mewlana Jalal al-din Balkhi Rumi, whose Mathnawi, composed in Konya, constitutes one of the crowning glories of classical Persian literature."
“ | “The Turks claim Jelaleddin as their, although a Persian of royal race, born of Balkh, old Bactra, on the groundoof his having sung and died in Qoniya, in Asia Minor… whence he was called Rumi “The Roman,” usually rendered “the Greek,” as wonning with the confines of Oriental Rome” | ” |
Unfortunately, non-academic arguments without any sources are constantly brought which violate WP:FORUM and WP:SOAPBOX.
Rumi's son Sultan Walad has claimed several times his knowledge of Turkish and Greek is weak. This despite being born in Anatolia. Note he has again about 60000+ verses of Persian and about 250 Greek/Turkish veres.
“Sultan Valad elsewhere admits that he has little knowledge of Turkish”(Franklin Lewis, "Rumi, "Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi", One World Publication Limited, 2008,pg 239)
“Sultan Valad did not feel confident about his command of Turkish”(Franklin Lewis, "Rumi, "Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi", One World Publication Limited, 2008,pg 240) Sultan
For example in his Ebteda-Nama, Sultan Walad admits twice in Persian after some of the lines in Greek/Turkish
[1]:
بگذر از گفت ترکی و رومی
که از این اصطلاح محرومی
گوی از پارسی و تازی
که در این دو همی خوش تازی
Translation:
Let go of the languages of Greek (Rumi) and Turkish (Turki)
Because you lack knowledge in these two,
Thus speak in Persian and Arabic,
Since in these two, you recite very well.
And also elsewhere in Ghazal in his Diwan, he writes::
If I knew Turkish, I would have brought one to a thousand. But when you listen to Persian, I tell the secrets much better.(Sultan Walad, ”Mowlavi-ye Digar:Shamel-e Ghazzaliyat, Qasayed, Qete’at, Tarkibat, Ash’ar-eTorki, Ashar-e Arabi, Mosammat, Robbi’yyat” Tehran, Sana’i, 1984. pg 556:)
ترکچه اگر بیلیدم بر سروزی بک ایدیدم
طتچه اگر دیلرسز گویم اسرار علا
He also says: If I had known Turkish, I would have told you, the secrets that God had imparted on Me.(Mehmed Fuad Koprulu, "Early Mystics in Turkish Literature", Translated by Gary Leiser and Robert Dankoff, Routledge, 2006, pg 253). According to Mehmed Fuad Koprulu, the Turkish poems are: Written in a very crude and primitive manner and with a very defective and rudimentary versification replete with zihaf (pronouncing long vowels short) and imalā (pronouncing a short vowel long).(Mehmed Fuad Koprulu, "Early Mystics in Turkish Literature", Translated by Gary Leiser and Robert Dankoff, Routledge, 2006, pg 206).
References
A Study about the Persian Cultural Legacy and Background of the Sufi Mystics Shams Tabrizi and Jalal al-Din Rumi [38] No need to copy & paste the whole thing.
The number for "Persian Mystic Rumi", "Persian poet Rumi" are overwhelming relative to any other adjective that denotes background. The ratio is close to 100:1..Some of these books are written by rumi scholars and some of them not necessarily from Rumi scholars ..consequently they (non-scholarly ones) only should be used if someone wants to have a contest (which is not appropriate for Wikipedia). However, in order to keep the quality of the article, each author has to be checked based on these criteria: a) Are they scholars of Rumi and know the Persian language?
b) or Are they some non-academics or a writer who has a one line sentence on a piece of work not related to Rumi?
1)
Speros Vryonis,"The Turkish State and History", Aristide D Caratzas Pub; 2 Sub edition (September 1992), p.51: "Djalal al-Din Rumi, the great Persian mystic and poet who lived most of his life in Konya is said to have had a very vivid and violent opinion of the nature of the Turkmen nomads of the Rum sultanate: “There is a well known story that the sheikh Salah al-Din one day hired some Turkmen workmen to build the walls of his garden. "Effendi Salah al-Din", said the master (Rumi), "you must hire Greek workmen for this construction. It is for the work of demolition that Turkish workmen must be hired. For the construction of the world is special to the Greeks, and the demolition of this same world is reserved for the Turks. When God created the universe, he first made the carefree infidels. He gave them a long life and considerable force in such a fashion...that in the manner of paid workmen they constructed the earthly world. They erected numerous cities and mountain fortresses...so that after centuries these constructions served as models to the men of recent times. But divine predestination has disposed of affairs in such a way that little by little the constructions become ruins. He created the people of the Turks in order to demolish, without respect or pity, all the constructions which they see. They have done this and are still doing it. They shall continue to do it day in and day out until the Resurrection!"”
2) Franklin Lewis: "On the question of Rumi's multilingualism (pages 315-17), we may still say that he spoke and wrote in Persian as a native language, wrote and conversed in Arabic as a learned "foreign" language and could at least get by at the market in Turkish and Greek (although some wildly extravagant claims have been made about his command of Attic Greek, or his native tongue being Turkish") (Lewis 2008:xxi). (Franklin Lewis, "Rumi, "Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi", One World Publication Limited, 2008). Franklin Lewis on Turkish scholar and cultural ambassador Onder: "There, we can only surmise that his cultural jingoism represents a conscious effort to rob Rumi of his Persian and Iranian heritage, and claim him for Turkish literature, ethnicity and nationalism") (Lewis 2008:549). (Franklin Lewis, "Rumi, "Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi", One World Publication Limited, 2008) Franklin D. Lewis, "Rumi: Past and Present, East and West: The life, Teaching and poetry of Jalal Al-Din Rumi", Oneworld Publication Limited, 2008 pg 9: "How is that a Persian boy born almost eight hundred years ago in Khorasan, the northeastern province of greater Iran, in a region that we identify today as Central Asia, but was considered in those days as part of the greater Persian cultural sphere, wound up in central Anatolia on the receding edge of the Byzantine cultural sphere". Franklin Lewis:”Living among Turks, Rumi also picked up some colloquial Turkish.”(Franklin Lewis, "Rumi, "Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi", One World Publication Limited, 2008, pg 315). "Rumi also composed a thirteen-line poem with the refrain, "you are the Agapos," from the Greek word agape, meaning 'you are the beloved'. These poems have bits of demotic Greek; these have been identified and translated in French along with some Greek verses of Sultan Valad"(.”(Franklin Lewis, "Rumi, "Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi", One World Publication Limited, 2008, pg 315))
3)Ritter, H.; Bausani, A. "ḎJ̲alāl al- Dīn Rūmī b. Bahāʾ al-Dīn Sulṭān al-ʿulamāʾ Walad b. Ḥusayn b. Aḥmad Ḵh̲aṭībī ." Encyclopaedia of Islam. Edited by: P. Bearman , Th. Bianquis , C.E. Bosworth , E. van Donzel and W.P. Heinrichs. Brill, 2007. Brill Online. Excerpt: "known by the sobriquet Mewlānā, persian poet and founder of the Mewlewiyya order of dervishes"
4)Julia Scott Meisami, Forward to Franklin Lewis, Rumi Past and Present, East and West, Oneworld Publications, 2008 (revised edition)
5) John Renard,"Historical dictionary of Sufism", Rowman & Littlefield, 2005. pg 155: "Perhaps the most famous Sufi who is known to many Muslims even today by his title alone is the seventh/13th century Persian mystic Rumi"
6) Frederick Hadland Davis , "The Persian Mystics. Jalálu'd-Dín Rúmí", Adamant Media Corporation (November 30, 2005) , ISBN 978-1-4021-5768-4.
7) Annemarie Schimmel, The Triumphal Sun: A Study of the Works of Jalaloddin Rumi, SUNY Press, 1993, p. 193: "Rumi's mother tongue was Persian, but he had learned during his stay in Konya, enough Turkish and Greek to use it, now and then, in his verse". Annemarie Schimmel, "The Mystery of Numbers",Oxford University Press, Apr 7, 1994. pg 51:"These examples are taken from the Persian mystic Rumi's work, not from Chinese, but they express the yang-yin relationship with perfect lucidity."
8) Cyril Glassé, Huston Smith, "The New Encyclopedia of Islam", Rowman Altamira, 2003. pg 235:"He was of Persian origin from Balkh, but left at an early age with his father Baha' ad-Din Walad, a scholar who had disagreements with the rulers".
9) Seyyed Hossein Nasr, “The Garden of Truth: The Vision and Promise of Sufism, Islam's Mystical Tradition”, Harper Collins, Sep 18, 2007. Pg 204:”Of Persian origin and born in Balkh, Rumi, the poet whose poems now are the most widely sold in America, spent the last forty years of his life in Konya in Anatolia.”
10) Jelaluddin Rumi, Andrew Harvey, Lekha Singh,"Call to Love: In the Rose Garden with Rumi", Sterling Publishing Company, Sep 1, 2007 - 112 pages. Backcover: “The Persian mystic Rumi, who lived and wrote in thirteenth-century Turkey, has become the most widely read poet in America today.
11)
Sheila Blair, Jonathan M. Bloom, "Rivers of paradise: water in Islamic art and culture",Yale University Press, 2009. pg 53:"This idea is expressed by the Persian mystic Rumi, currently the best-selling poet in the United States: "The sea bears up one who is dead: but if he be living,.."
12)
Carl W. Ernst, "Rethinking Islam in the contemporary world", Edinburgh University Press, 2004. pg 244:"Currently, the best-known representative of Sufism is the classical Persian poet Rumi, who is often represented as someone who transcended all religions.5 Many people wonder what relationship, if any, Sufism has to Islam"
13)
Richard Ettinghausen, Oleg Grabar, Marilyn Jenkins-Madina,"Islamic Art and Architecture, 650-1250 "Yale University Press, Jul 11, 2003. pg 134: "In effect then, wherever their conquests took them, the Turks, or at least their princes, carried largely Persian culture and Persian ideas, even the Persian language. The greatest Persian mystic poet, Jalal al-Din Rumi, lived and wrote in Konya in central Anatolia"
14) Tambi-Piḷḷai Isaac Tambyah, "Psalms of a Saiva Saint", Asian Educational Services, 1925, page 157:"The Persian mystic, Rumi, exclaims, "I gazed into my heart and there I saw Him who was nowhere else”.
15) Stephen Arroyo, “Person-to-Person Astrology: Energy Factors in Love, Sex and Compatibility”, North Atlantic Books, Jun 21, 2011. Pg 114: The Persian mystic Rumi, whose works have recently become widely known in the Western world for their inspirational beauty and profound spiritual insights, has written: “Love is the astrolabe of God's mysteries.”
16) Brush Dance, “A Journal with the Poetry of Rumi”, BRUSH DANCE Incorporated, Dec 1, 2001 “This beautifully designed writing journal features the poetry of 13th-century Persian mystic Rumi and the colorful and inspiring artwork of Michael Green.”</ref>.
17) William J. Duiker, Jackson J. Spielvogel, "World History: Volume 1",Cengage Learning, Dec 26, 2008 pg 245:"In this poem, the thirteenth-century Persian poet Rumi describes the mystical relationship achieved by means of passionate music and dance"
18) Mariam Naseem, "Not Without My Son: As Told to Lee Gittler Steup", AuthorHouse, Jan 19, 2010. pg 26:"I finish this chapter with the words of the oldest and greatest Persian poet, Rumi," https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Rumi+persian+poet%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1#hl=en&tbo=1&tbm=bks&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22Persian+poet+Rumi%22&oq=%22Persian+poet+Rumi%22&gs_l=serp.3...8097.10644.0.10813.19.19.0.0.0.0.156.1417.16j3.19.0.efrsh..0.0...1.9GrMo9DB8sQ&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=9a8fbacd776db0ec&biw=1536&bih=718
19) N. Hanif, "Biographical Encyclopedia of Sufis",Volume 3 of Biographical encyclopaedia of Sufis", Sarup & Sons, 2000. pg 18: "Shah Abdul Latif had an unflinching faith in the great Persian poet Rumi"
20) AC Hunsberger, "Nasir Khusraw, the Ruby of Badakhshan: A Portrait of the Persian Poet, Traveller and Philosopher", I.B.Tauris, 2003. page xiii: "If Nasir Khusraw is less well-known today, even in Iran, than other Persian poets such as Sa'di, Khayyam, Rumi or Hafiz, other travel chroniclers and historians such as Ibn Battuta or Ibn Khaldun"
21) Wayne Teasdale , “The Mystic Heart: Discovering a Universal Spirituality in the World's Religions”, New World Library, Mar 9, 2001. Pg 224: “The Persian mystic Rumi, one of the greatest Islamic poet sages..”
22)
Charles Dudley Warner, "A Library of the World's Best Literature - Ancient and Modern - Vol.XXXII (Forty-Five Volumes); Rumi-Schrer",
Cosimo, Inc., 2008. pg 2487: "The appelation Rumi, or Syrian, is given to the Persian poet Jalal al-Din because most of his life was passed at Iconium in Rumi or Asia Minor"
23) R Kane, "The Significance of Free Will", Oxford University Press, 1996, pg 3: "There is a disputation [that will continue] till mankind are raised from the dead between the Necessitarians and the partisans of Free Will. —Jalalu'ddin Rumi, twelfth-century Persian poet "
24) Fayeq Oweis, "Encyclopedia of Arab American Artists",ABC-CLIO, 2008. pg 121: "The Post-Apollo Press has also published one of the most important scholarly studies on the great spiritual master and Persian poet Jalaluddin Rumi (1207-1273) and his life and work"
25) Edward E. Curtis, "Encyclopedia of Muslim-American history",Infobase Publishing, 2010. pg 503:"Rumi, a Persian poet and theologian, inspired movement in the 13th century Turkey.."
26) Salma Khadra Jayyusi, Manuela Marín, "The Legacy of Muslim Spain", BRILL, 1992. pg 545:"Mystical poets like the Persian poet Rumi were to reach new extremes of delicacy and preciosity in seeing in the intimate union of the rose (gol) and sugar (shekar) .."
27) Thom Cavalli, "Alchemical Psychology: Old Recipes for Living in a New World", Penguin, Mar 1, 2002. pg 260: "I have often quoted the great Persian poet Rumi.." [39]
28) Zenius, "Arete", AuthorHouse, 2011. pg 171: "the Persian Poet, Rumi, may have been their greatest and Tagore may have been the top poet of the Indian sub-continent. .."
29) John L. Jackson, David Kyuman Kim, "Race, Religion, and Late Democracy",SAGE, 2011. pg 62:"Famous New Age writer Paolo Coelho made an annual trip to Iran, where he has in the past lectured on the Sufi, Persian poet Rumi"
30) Deirdre Johnson ,"Love: Bondage or Liberation? A Psycholological Exploration of the Meaning, Values and Dangers of Falling in Love", Karnac Books, Jun 30, 2010 . pg xiii: "The Persian writer Rumi, is one of the most widely read poets at the moment".
31) Geela, "The American dream: an immigrant's true life story of winning against all odds",Indiana University. pg 22: "Similarly, many great thinkers and scientists such as Albert Einstein and the great Persian philosopher Rumi have described the universe as more of a great thought than an object." [40]
32) John Baldock, "Essence of Rumi ", Chartwell Books (September 2005). pg 68: ..writings of Rumi and other Persian poets of the twelfth and.."
33) Rumi, Ehsan Yarshater, Hasan Javadi and A. J. Arberry , "Mystical Poems of Rumi", University Of Chicago Press (April 15, 2009) . " Front Matter: "... Persian mystical poet Maulänä.."
34) Wayne Teasdale and the Dalai Lama, "The mystical heart: Discovering a Universal Spirituality in the World's Religions", New World Library, 2001. pg 222: "The Persian mystic Rumi, one of the great Islamic poet sages, comments.."
35) Roger Housden , "Ten Poems to Change Your Life",Random House Digital, Inc., 2001. pg 14: "Eight hundred years earlier, the Persian mystic Rumi said:.."
36)
A. Avery, G., A Reynolds, K, "Representations of Childhood Death", Palgrave Macmillan, 2000. pg 158: "his free translations of the work of the Persian mystic Rumi".
37) Rachel Pollack, "The power of ritual",Dell Pub., 2000. pg 23:"The Persian mystic Rumi wrote of God as "the Beloved"
38) Paul William Roberts , Tauris Parke Paperbacks, Oct 17, 2006 . pg 22:"Besides major poets like the Persian Rumi, the order produced numerous Sufi masters who were, and are, believed to possess spiritual powers and the ability to perform miracles."
39) John J. K. Lee, "Receiving God's Deeper Messages: The Pilgrimage Of A Truth-seeking Christian", iUniverse, 2005. pg 77:"Persian poet Rumi expressed this insight beautifully in the following poem. The entire world, "
40) Christopher K. Germer, Sharon Salzberg , "The Mindful Path to Self-Compassion: Freeing Yourself from Destructive Thoughts and Emotions", Guilford Press, 2009. pg 91: "Consider the following poem from the Persian poet Rumi.."
41) Jan Philips, "Divining the body: reclaim the holiness of your physical self", SkyLight Paths Publishing, Mar 30, 2005. pg 7: "The Persian poet Rumi.."
42)
T. Tymieniecka,” Islamic Philosophy and Occidental Phenomenology on the Perennial Issue of Microcosm and Macrocosm”, Springer, Aug 29, 2006. “The story of true love is so sweet that it not only cannot be narrated in one paper, but, as the Persian mystic Rumi says: 26 However much we describe and explain love, When we come to love we are ashamed of it.”,
43) David J. Roxburgh , "Writing the word of God: calligraphy and the Qur'an", Yale University Press, 2008.
44) Luci Shaw, Eugene H. Peterson, "Water My Soul: Cultivating the Interior Life", Regent College Publishing. pg 130: "Rumi, Persian poet".
45) Ilʹi͡a Pavlovich Petrushevskiĭ, "Islam in Iran ", SUNY Press, 1985. pg 399: "Rumi Persian poet and mystic"
46) Bernard Grun , "The timetables of history: a horizontal linkage of people and events", Simon & Schuster, 1991. "Djelaleddin Rumi, Persian poet, founder of the Order of Dancing Dervishes" [41]
47) Y. C. Simhadri, "Youth in the contemporary world",Mittal Publications, 1989 . pg 118: "The evation of the evils of mundane political systems was summarised by the Persian philosopher Jalal-eddin Al-Rumi in these terms: “The princely all seductive terms, but behind them lie death, torment, and the loss of our life"
48) Nyogen Senzaki, Eidō Shimano, Soen Nakagawa,"Like a Dream, Like a Fantasy: The Zen Teachings and Translations of Nyogen", Wisdom Publications, Aug 31, 2005. pg 99: "Jalal-ud-Din Rumi was a Persian philosopher and poet of the early thirteenth century"
49) Alice Peck , " SkyLight Paths Publishing, May 30, 2008. pg 4: "Jalal ad-Din ar-Rumi, the Persian sage and poet mystic who wrote during the thirteenth century, sees sowing and consumption— the beginning and the end—as one, as a cycle"
50) Michael Sebastian, "1-Step Solution Just Say Hu", AuthorHouse, 2009. pg 50: "Rumi, Jalal ad-Din, 1207-73, great Islamic Persian sage and poet mystic, b. in Balkh",.
51)
Seyyed Hossein Nasr, "Islamic Art and Spirituality", Suny Press, 1987. pg 115:"Jalal al-Din was born in a major center of Persian culture, Balkh, from Persian speaking parents, and is the product of that Islamic Persian culture which in the 7th/13th century dominated the 'whole of the eastern lands of Islam and to which present day Persians as well as Turks, Afghans, Central Asian Muslims and the Muslims of the Indo-Pakistani and the Muslims of the Indo-Pakistani subcontinent are heir. It is precisely in this world that the sun of his spiritual legacy has shone most brillianty during the past seven centuries. The father of Jalal al-Din, Muhammad ibn Husayn Khatibi, known as Baha al-Din Walad and entitled Sultan al-'ulama', was an oustanding Sufi in Balkh connected to the spiritual lineage of Najm al-Din Kubra."
52)
Laura Resau, : "The Ruby Notebook “,Random House Digital, Inc., Jan 10, 2012 . p149: “You know, the Persian mystic Rumi mentions a Layla in his poetry.”
53) Andrew Harvey,"Call to Love: In the Rose Garden with Rumi",Sterling Publishing Company, 2007. "The Persian mystic Rumi, who lived and wrote in thirteenth-century Turkey, has become the most widely read poet in America today"
54)
Robert Whittemore,The Review of Metaphysics Vol. 9, No. 4 (Jun., 1956), pp. 681-699.
"It is, however, important to note that the inspiration for Iqbal's panpsychism is not any thinker of the west but rather the famed Persian mystic, Rum"
[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16]. [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53]
References
If there is ever a need for an Iranian section (which there isn't since WP:weight applies and top scholars like Franklin/Encycloapedia of Islam must be given weight, and the other viewpoints do not have equivalent weight), one can write:
Western authoritative scholars such as Franklin Lewis have criticized Turkish authorities for trying to rob Rumi of his Iranian heritage and have dismissed the extravagant claim that his native language was Turkish [1]. Turkish scholar Halman points to the fact that Western scholars have always accepted Rumi as Persian due to his exclusive use of the Persian language and because he remained in the mainstream Persian cultural heritage. [2]. According to Prof. Speros Vyronis, based on a passage from Aflaki (a student of Rumi and his first biogpher), Rumi had a violent opinion of the nature of Turks [3]. Iranian scholar Firuz Mansuri has noted that Sultan Walad belittles Turks in several poems and also has mentioned several times that his knowledge of Turkish and Greek is weak [4]. R. Minutalab also analyzes the Ma'arif of Rumi's father and the lectures of Rumi and notes: "The language of Vakhsh in Tajikistan was also Persian as shown by the colloquial everyday language of Ma‘arif" and "that the Fihi ma Fih and the seven sermon shows that the everyday spoken language by Rumi was Persian", discounting the viewpoint that the poet only used the language for literary reasons [5]. For further explanation on Rumi's Iranian background, one can refer to the recent monograph of Dr. Minutalab [6]. Likewise, in mystical Persian poetry, the words Rumi, Turk, Hindu and Zangi take symbolic non-ethnic meaning and this has led to some confusions for those that are not familiar with Persian poetry, with Rumi describing himself as not a Turk, Turk, Hindu, Greek, Black [7]. Oxford historian C.E. Bosworth has mentioned the process of Persianization was accelerated by Rumi's father and son [8]. Overall, numerous sources have supposed Rumi as a native Persian speaker and as a Persian poet/mystic [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24]. [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] [58] [59] [60]
and 1000s+ more in google books and google scholars [42] [43].-- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 21:25, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
References
Wikipedia is concerned about weight. Google books/scholars as well as the most authoritative living scholars such as Franklin overwhelmingly state Persian. And scholars such as Franklin have directly criticized the Turkish claim while even Turkish scholars such as Halmann claim that Western "scholars" (note scholars and not some random book) consider Rumi as a Persian poet. Of course Halmann tries to rationalize this by saying because Rumi wrote in Persian, however there are much more evidence here: [44]. So wikipedia needs to restore the correct version: [45].
Unfortunately, ignorant users have attacked this page constantly, and bring 5-6 random books from their 19 book google search whose authors have no authority in Rumi studies.. Some of the books are outright ridicolous with authors having no university and academic background, and just writing one sentence on Rumi. Else Iranian users can do a search from 2000-3000+ google books and overwhelm the punty 5-6 books written by non-experts. Until the Turkish users can suggest an alive Western scholars with the status of Franklin Lewis who has written the ultimate biography of Rumi, and such scholars as Arberry, Encyclopaedia of Islam, Julia Meisami, etc.., then they need to desist from vandalizing this page. The book of Lewis has been overwhelmingly positively reviewed as shown in www.scholar.google.com .. wikipedia consequently must also follow scholarly sources. However, even their semi-unbiased Turkish scholars such as Halmann claim that Western scholars consider Rumi as a Persian. That is sufficient than for Wikipedia and these Turkish nationalists need to find a new play ground to appropriate Persian history. For more details see here: [46]. Thank you. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 15:47, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
To the above user: How nicely you have written; with sources and all. I wonder why and lament you are not a registered user. Or have you been one in the past? I would like to see you writing articles; for example all those related to Turkish gastronomy... All the best. -- E4024 ( talk) 13:47, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Mr Talat Halman (not Halmann) says, in the ref supplied, that ... (this and that) take him as Persian, not that he (the Turkish scholar Halman) does so. If you read more of Halman you will probably sense he is complaining of that situation. -- E4024 ( talk) 17:30, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
I am asking admin intervention for removing the anti-Turkish POV above and for sanctions against the user. -- E4024 ( talk) 17:55, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Okay, then Halman is clear: "the West, scholars have always accepted Rumi as Persian on the basis of his exclusive use of the Persian language and because he remained in the mainstream of Persian cultural heritage. No account seems to have been taken of the Turkish and Afghan claims, except some occasional references such as the one by William Hastie in his introduction to The Festival of Spring, featuring his translations from Rumi’s Divan: ""The Turks claim Jelaleddin as their, although a Persian of royal race, born of Balkh, old Bactra, on the groundoof his having sung and died in Qoniya, in Asia Minor… whence he was called Rumi “The Roman,” usually rendered “the Greek,” as wonning with the confies of Oriental Rome"". So where is this great debate amongst scholars? I do not mind having a section about "politics of Rumi's origin", however him being Persian poet is supported by overwhelming scholarship today and this needs to be reflected in the introduction. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 22:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Simply because it is prose does not mean that it is not allegorical on some level, and even if he were quoted as saying "Turks are jerks" that would not necessarily indicate he is Persian; to assume so directly is OR on our part. If we have a cite from "Dr. Smith" saying "The Turk destroyer story and X/Y/Z indicate...", sure great, let's use that as a cite. Especially on a topic like this, WP:Secondary sources aren't just preferred, they're basically mandatory. I do agree with you that non-Rumi-ologist sources (like the "Inner Wisdom" book) are non-expert and should not be cited here. I also agree that Lewis looks pretty reputable, though we do of course want to avoid leaning too heavily on one academic, expert though he may be.
Regarding What is important is what Western scholars claim and not what Turkish or Iranian scholars claim here, I would quite disagree. If there is a controversy among reputable scholars, that should be addressed. Further, even if Western/Turkish/Iranian scholars were to agree, the fact that the issue is contested in the public discourse is quite important. Again we shouldn't cite primaries, so if some Turkish political group put out a pamphlet called "Rumi: The Greatest Turk" it'd be improper to cite that. However, if a reputable academic writes "Turkish organisations have pushed a view that Rumi is Turkish, producing a pamphlet distributed in millions of copies..." we should cite that academic's analysis of the dispute.
There's a great wiki-essay Wikipedia:Beware of the tigers that is a fun and short read that really applies here. The "tiger" (the controversy) should not be banished from the article, but should be stuffed and mounted as an objective display-piece. The problem we have now is that the "tiger" is roaming the talk page and the article. We don't need to remove the tiger from the museum (pretend there is no global dispute), we just need to portray it vice have it active. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 17:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
I request the users that came up with a new concensus over two days (despite one standing for five years)! to enter mediation. If not, please desist from changing a concensus that has been here for five years. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 22:19, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Whoever has a problem with the lead, will they accept mediation of 3rd party? As the format proposed by some users has multiple flaws including WP:OR, WP:WEIGHT and also not taking into account what authoritative scholars who have written biographies of Rumi (e.g. Franklin) consider. Speros Vryonis,"The Turkish State and History", Aristide D Caratzas Pub; 2 Sub edition (September 1992), p.51: "Djalal al-Din Rumi, the great Persian mystic and poet who lived most of his life in Konya is said to have had a very vivid and violent opinion of the nature of the Turkmen nomads of the Rum sultanate: “There is a well known story that the sheikh Salah al-Din one day hired some Turkmen workmen to build the walls of his garden. "Effendi Salah al-Din", said the master (Rumi), "you must hire Greek workmen for this construction. It is for the work of demolition that Turkish workmen must be hired. For the construction of the world is special to the Greeks, and the demolition of this same world is reserved for the Turks. When God created the universe, he first made the carefree infidels. He gave them a long life and considerable force in such a fashion...that in the manner of paid workmen they constructed the earthly world. They erected numerous cities and mountain fortresses...so that after centuries these constructions served as models to the men of recent times. But divine predestination has disposed of affairs in such a way that little by little the constructions become ruins. He created the people of the Turks in order to demolish, without respect or pity, all the constructions which they see. They have done this and are still doing it. They shall continue to do it day in and day out until the Resurrection!"” This is for example one quote for Persian origin..but I can find much more from google books/scholars. Note primary source for the same quote: (Shams al-Din Aflaki, "The feats of the knowers of God: Manāqeb al-ʻārefīn", translated by John O'Kane, Brill, 2002. (pg 503)) but in Wikipedia, secondary sources are preferred). Thanks-- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 16:50, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi, Your lead violates WP:OR. Because even such Turkish scholars as Halmann agree that Western scholars accept Rumi as Persian. The parable about Turks destroying is not a poem to be symbolic. It is first account witness from Rumi's student Aflaki and is quoted by a secondary source. It is not verse but prose. And I have brought a secondary source (Speros Vyronis) who has mentioned it and says Persian poet Rumi had a violent view about Turks and then quotes the line. I also agree with you that the lead is alittle bit cluttered, however we need to keep the most authoritative sources. Lewis is clear on the issue:
I agree, we should just have two authoritative sources in the introduction and also mention Western scholars consider Rumi to be Persian.. then we can expand on the issue in the origin section if necessary. What is important is what Western scholars claim and not what Turkish or Iranian scholars claim here. The top living Rumi scholar right now is Franklin Lewis and the most important biography written on Rumi in any language is again his book. Your second sentence is OR and is designed to make things "fair", whereas Wikipedia is concerned about authoritative sources. Currently, Franklin and Encycloapedia of Islam (which says Persian poet) are considered the best sources. Specially the book from Franklin has gotten many positive google scholars review. Now contrast this with some of the sources that were brought randomly from google books such as:
I suggest we start with Encycloapedia of Islam: "Ritter, H.; Bausani, A. "ḎJ̲alāl al- Dīn Rūmī b. Bahāʾ al-Dīn Sulṭān al-ʿulamāʾ Walad b. Ḥusayn b. Aḥmad Ḵh̲aṭībī ." Encyclopaedia of Islam. Edited by: P. Bearman , Th. Bianquis , C.E. Bosworth , E. van Donzel and W.P. Heinrichs. Brill, 2007. Brill Online. Excerpt: "known by the sobriquet Mewlānā, persian poet and founder of the Mewlewiyya order of dervishes"-- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 17:29, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
I've restored the last stable version of the article, which had not been changed for years, before someone, unilaterally and without discussion, decided to introduce nationalistic fringe claims, not supported by the mainstream academic sources, into the article which violate WP:Fringe and WP:Weight. Kurdo777 ( talk) 06:15, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
This page has been on my watchlist for years. I totally agree that the stable version that had been there for years should not have been tempered with witout a duscussion· I endorse Kurdo`s restoration of the original version· Penom ( talk) 17:03, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't know why 81.213.117.125 s reasonable suggestion was refused so violently. After all it was suggested to drop the adjective of national heritage. Rumi lived in Turkey under the protection of Turkish sultans. His tomb is in Turkey and he is considered as a Moslem saint by the Turkish people. Maybe his ethnical background was Persian. But what difference does it make ? ( Catherine the Great was a Russian empress. Actually she was of German origin. Do we call her a German empress ?) Anyway, after the last edition to call Rumi a Persian poet, the introductory sentence of the article became too chaotic. ( Please try to read the first sentence with four paranthesis, Arabic alphabet, birth and death dates etc. ) I suggest to simplify the first sentence and add a separate section about his names and different views about his background. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 15:47, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your efforts Matthew. His descendants are Turkish citizens, live in Turkey and speak Turkish and I have never heard or read them saying they have Persian origin. Here you can see a photo of his 22nd generation granddaughter Ms Esin Çelebi... -- E4024 ( talk) 18:18, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
All of you need to stop WP:Soaping. Wikipedia is not a place to promote fringe nationalist theories. We rely on the consensus of scholars on these issues. Rumi, being Persian, is an undisputed fact, supported by thousands of reliable sources as outlined here by objective Google Book and Google Scholar results [47]. That's all that matters in Wikipedia. Your personal opinions, soapboxing, nationalist chest-beating etc, have no place here. Kurdo777 ( talk) 23:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Okay, so the initial changes I made were too bold for folks, so let's instead figure out piece-by-piece what needs to be improved in the lede. I'll post some suggestions in order, and over a few days folks can see how far down the list we have consensus for. Sound workable?
Can we agree that we should enact at least some of these changes? #1-3? #1-2? I'd certainly hope we can at least agree on #1. Let's give it a few days for folks to weigh in, and see what changes we can agree are needed. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 17:29, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
One must follow Wikipedia Policy: 1) I am neutral between CE and AD…I might even be slightly biased towards AD. However, let follow the mainstream and most common Wikipedia policy on that. I am not sure what it is, but either AD or CE is fine. 2) On reducing the number of sources for Persian in the introduction, I think we should put all the 50 sources I have collected here []. Just kidding, I am fine with that and one can choose Encycloapedia of Islam (which directly has mentioned him as a Persian poet) and Franklin (and possibly Speros Vyronis). Franklin and Encycloapedia of Islam are two good sources. They mention “Persian poet” or Persian.. One does not need to know the reason they consider Rumi as “Persian poet”, it is quoted by these top scholarly sources and that is sufficient for Wikipedia. As per the reason why Rumi is considered Persian, that is explained in the book of Franklin somewhat but as even Halman admits, because he remained in the Persian cultural sphere, and wrote Persian. But further proof is that he derides Turks (see Aflaki above and noted by secondary sources Speros), his son did not speak Turkish/Greek well, he uses Shahnama mythology (not Turkish), came from Persian background area Wakhsh, his lectures and talks to his students are in Persian (not Turkish, which goes against the constant claim that he wrote in Persian because it was tradition, whereas his Friday sermons, and lectures to his students and conversations with Shams are all in Persian and he has absolutely not a single Turkish conversation), 99% of his output is Persian, close to 1% in Arabic and less than 1/3 of 1% in Greek and Turkish. All of these things are fairly obvious for scholars like Franklin. Just like Shakespear is not Arabic Shaykh Sabir or Newton’s Englishness is not the subject of lengthy books. Or the claim that Saladin is Turkish is not taken seriously despite constant vandalism by nationalist trolls on that page. 3) Rumi wrote his name in Persian language. Not the modern Turkish language with Latin Alphabet that did not exist nor in Ottoman Turkish which was not formed yet. Consequently, the Persian name in Perso-Arabic script is relevant. Modern Turkish language which did not exist during the time of Rumi is not relevant. Scholars who want to study Rumi must learn the Persian language, not modern Anatolian Turkish created by Ataturk through the language reformation. So Persian language has relevance. If Rumi saw his name in Persian he would understand it as he wrote it in Persian. However, he would not understand the Latin alphabet. This might be relevant as well to his popularity today [ http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LH14Ak01.html
I do not mind a culture section discussing Rumi’s Persian and Sufi culture in more detail.. His biggest influences were Attar and Sanai. He also has quoted a quite a number of Shahnama heroes. However, the “Turkish viewpoint” is fringe and does not belong to Wikipedia. For example, all the Sufi’s in his lineage are Persian..here is how his son Sultan Walad traces their spiritual lineage: Baha al-Walad, Attar, Sanai, Hallaj, Shibli, Abu Sai’d, Karkhi, Junayd Baghdadi, Bayazid Bistami ..and from there to the Prophet Muhammad. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 00:07, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia MOS allows either CE or AD, but CE has generally become the academic standard in the West. WP does say that AD/CE is unnecessary unless its absence would cause ambiguity. I argue it could in this case to avoid any confusion with AH, at least in the lede and infobox.
I'm fine with retaining the cites that are best for "Persian" in the lede, but I very much disagree that a tertiary-source reference book saying "Rumi was a Persian poet who X, Y, Z" counts as a proper reference. Firstly it's tertiary, as noted, secondly no context. If you have cites which say "the case for Rumi's identity is...", then let's use those.
So far as names, I don't have any argument with having the Perso-Arabic script version of his "primary name" and the literary name "Rumi" in the lede, but I don't see the need for lengthy IPA pronunciations in the lede nor multiple variants of his long-name or titles. Those are certainly useful info, but the first para just needs to establish an identity, not cover all contingencies.
So giving it several more days for consensus, but thus far overall positive for CE, a "Names" section, and focusing on maybe 2 of the best and most explicit references for "Persian"? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 00:24, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Encyclopaedia of Islam (Leiden-Brill) is actually not a teriatary source in the way you might think. Each article is written by an expert in the specific field. It is same as Iranica. It is different than Encarta, Britannica, Wikipedia, Larouse, etc who have amaueters and nameless authors, or have non-detail information. For example the article on Rumi is written by two scholars of Persian language and literature. It is in a different league than Encarta or Wikipedia..etc. It is considered a specialized academic source. I have listed 50 sources here.. [48] I am fine with any of these two combinations as they are all well known sources: (Franklin, Encylopaedia of Islam), (Franlin, Nasr), (Franklin, Carl W. Earnest). Also, we simply have to cite what the text says: "Persian poet" or "Persian"..we do not need a book on identity. Just as for Shakespear, if it says "English poet",..one doesn't need to cite a book on Shakespear's identity (which may or may not exist). As far as I know, there has not been a book discussing Rumi's identity, as the issue of him being Persian is accepted due to variety of reasons I gave above and even Halman agrees that Rumi is accepted as Persian by Western scholars, while Franklin calls the Turkish claim extravagant. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 00:33, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
There needs to be a correction made on this page or article. Balk province is in Afghanistan not Tajikistan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonya2012 ( talk • contribs) 00:25, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
A third source could also be added to confirm this (though the second citation for "Tajikistan" does, despite confirming Afghanistan as Rumi's place of birth); Coleman Barks' The Essential Rumi also states that Rumi "was born September 20, 1207, in Balkh Afghanistan" (IX). Afghanis are so familiar with this fact that they call Rumi "Jelaluddin Balkhi." (ibid.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.212.237.243 ( talk) 05:27, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
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Rumi's place of birth needs to be corrected. Balk province is in Present day Afghanistan NOT Tajikistan and actually has been for centuries. Correction needs to be made for Balk Province being in Afghanistan.
Sonya2012 ( talk) 00:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Tajiks and Persian admirers still prefer to call Jalaluddin 'Balkhi' because his family lived in Balkh, current day in Afghanistan before migrating westward. However, their home was not in the actual city of Balkh, since the mid-eighth century a center of Muslim culture in (Greater) Khorasan (Iran and Central Asia). Rather, as the Swiss scholar Fritz Meier has shown, it was in the small town of Wakhsh north of the Oxus that Baha'uddin Walad, Jalaluddin's father, lived and worked as a jurist and preacher with mystical inclinations. Franklin Lewis, Rumi Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings, and Poetry of Jalâl al-Din Rumi, 2000, pp. 47–49. -- Defensor Ursa 00:56, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
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77.168.82.205 ( talk) 14:37, 20 October 2012 (UTC) Ok, this is really sad how Rumi's place of birth is placed as Tajekestan while it was indeed Balkh (that is located in Afghanistan)! Please correct this information. His ethnicity is NOT Persian either. Please stop spreading wrong knowledge!
The article must be edited as soon as possible. 1. Rumi is from Balkh from Afghanistan. Balkh is NOT located in Tajikistan. It is located in the province of Mazar e Sharif in northern Afghanistan. Rumi never lived in Iran and not an Iranian either. In Mathnawi, Rumi himself describes his birthplace in Balkh. The article erroneously places Balkh both in Tajikistan and Afghanistan. 2. It is an abomination to see how Iranians would do whatever possible to rob the cultural heritage of Afghanistan for political purposes. War has destroyed Afghanistan. Its cultural heritage must be preserved. A good example to highlight the error would be to call Mozart a German and Beethoven an Austrian. Hafiz was from Iran. Rumi is from Afghanistan. Iranians and Afghans do share common culture. However, the Iranians have misunderstood the term "Afghan" and associate Afghans with Pashtoons. Wikipedia would only undermine its credibility if it allows false scholarship to propagate on its website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Farhadus ( talk • contribs) 14:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
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There appears to be a typo that needs correcting. Section 4.2 'Prose Works' Fihi MaFihi just at the end of the last paragraph "and lack the sophisticated world play" should be "and lack the sophisticated word play" Heywood123 ( talk) 15:55, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Rumi's homeland-Balkh region-has the native population of Tājīks who were called "Persian" at the time. I can give many sources to prove that Tājīks are the native inhabitants of Balkh region. Both "Persian" and "Tājīk" must be used as the ETHNICITY of Rumi to AVOID CONFUSION (even though Tājīks are part of Persian people, but they are called Tājīk today). Those who deny this fact, they seem as if they are stealing the cultural heritage of the native population of the region and this is totally unacceptable. Artacoana 11:50, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Decisions in Wikipedia is just based on reliable sources, not idea of users. Sources say Rumi was a Persian. -- Aliwiki ( talk) 13:25, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Tajiks are East-Persians, so by calling Rumi for a Persian also includes tajiks.
--
85.165.212.65 (
talk) 14:43, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
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It would be great if this wiki page helped people to pronounce rumi's first and last name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.80.128.108 ( talk) 17:28, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Sean Stone, the 27-year-old son of director Oliver Stone, has become a Shiite Muslim during a visit to Iran; he is working on a documentary about the 13th-century Persian Muslim poet and mystic Rumi.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/shortcuts/2012/feb/15/sean-stone-muslim-religion-hollywood — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 ( talk) 21:07, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
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The usage of New Persian is superfluous. Being a native Persian speaker, it sounded very weird to me. The current Persian (or Dari) language is in fact the "New" or "Modern" Persian which started to flourish around 1000 years ago in Khorasan.
MaxNajma ( talk) 18:28, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Not done: PLease detail what you would like to change in a 'please change X to Y' manner and provide a reliable source. Thanks,
Celestra (
talk) 23:12, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
I turned up here following a reference to Jalau'l-Din Rimi in Scott Peck's Further Along the Road Less Travelled, and was surprised to find myself in an article headed Rumi. I imagine you are going to answer that this is the name he is know as within the community - but would a forwarder to this article therefore be appropriate? Ender's Shadow Snr ( talk) 12:54, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
The article seems to have a quarrel with the "portrayal in the West [of Rumi] as a proponent of non-denominational spirituality" and scoffs at people who in the eyes of the authors, propagated this view. Even to the extend that Coleman Barks, who - it's even mentioned in the article - has done more then anyone else to make the name Rumi known in the West, is not cited among the translators. I think this reflects a 'partial' view - although I am well aware that it is very hard to say anything about Rumi that isn't partial, apart from the historical facts (and I am glad that the article is NOT limited to reciting the the historical facts).
My main quarrel would be with this text in the article: "However, despite the aforementioned ecumenical attitude, and contrary to his contemporary portrayal in the West as a proponent of non-denominational spirituality, a number of Rumi poems suggest the importance of outward religious observance, the primacy of the Qur'an." These words, I think, reflect the urge to place, to fixate, Rumi in some or other pigeon hole: "he may have said this and that, but what he REALLY thought was ..." I think this is just one opinion amongst others; there are no historical grounds for this claim. More importantly: I think these attemtps to 'claim' Rumi are selling him short. In my opinion, if he expressed himself, as he did quite often, in ways which at first sight seem contradictory, this very contradiction is an essential part of his thinking and of his legacy. Personally, I do not even see a contradiction here. My sufi teacher used to point his muslim mureeds continually towards the Koran. But me, a (wandering and wondering) jew, he directed towards Torah and Talmud and he stimulated me to adhere to the rules and rituals of my faith. Not for a moment did I or anyonyone else of his mureeds see these diverse advices as 'contradictory'. Please forgive me this personal digression; I only meant to illustrate that even the use of the word 'contrary' in the above sentence reflects an opinion one could argue with.
I would propose to replace the aforementioned text, and the preceding paragraph under the heading of "Universality", which seems written as a prelude to the subsequent denial of this 'universality'. I would propose:
"One of the most quoted sentences of Rumi's is: 'Christian, Jew, Muslim, shaman, Zoroastrian, stone, ground, mountain, river, each has a secret way of being with the mystery, unique and not to be judged' and one of his (in the West) most recited poems begins with: 'Muslims! What can I do? I have lost my identity! I am not a Christian, Jew, pagan, or Muslim. I am neither an Easterner nor a Westerner, neither a land nor a sea person. Nature can't fully account for me, nor can the whirling cosmos.' These quotations may give a sense of the universality of Rumi's concept of 'the Beloved' and and his recognition of, and respect for, the many paths of the seeker."
I also protest against the over-long an over-detailed introduction depicting Rumi as 'a poet' from a bygone era. The Rumi I know is far more then a poet and he is not dead at all; he is a living inspiration and guidance for many. I sorely miss this actual relevance in the introduction and in the article itself. I'll try to come up with something better, but let's first see if anyone responds to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mabelis ( talk • contribs) 19:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
i think that the use of the word farsi to describe the language of Rumi,is more approriate.i lived in iran.nobody said they spoke Persian.they said they spoke Farsi.Persian is a western imposition,and inditcates a trend toward deislamification of Iran in western media.followers of Zoraster are called Pars in India.i like them.i have no problem with them.but possibly unintentionally the author of this article is giving the United states policy on Iran towards calling it Persia instead of Iran and calling Tahk-te-jamshid Persepolis for purposes of undermining the importance of Islam in Iran the help it desires. would Rumi want that?i very much doubt it. in the same vain to call the inhabitants Persians or even Iranians is also a weird westernisation.please say:Iranis.they speak "farsi" also 'bahlk' should have a capital 'B'. persian cats and carpets are o.k.but people????i say no. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.66.121.19 ( talk) 05:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
This is nonsense! the proper name of this language in English is Persian. 'de-Islamification' and Western imposition is ridiculous. Nobody in Poland calls their language Polish, they call is 'polski'. so we should stop using Polish as it would be a Western imposition?
Also followers of Zoroaster in India are called Parsee not Pars or Persian. You need to study more and improve your English language much more than this. BrokenMirror2 ( talk) 20:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
On the other hand, Rumi lived in Turkey, and contributed to Turkish society first of all. Therefore, most of the contemporary authors call him as "Turkish mystic poet", not "Persian mystic poet" because he didn't live in Persia and never be a part of Persian society. Let's look what others say:
I understand MatthewVanitas is trying to be helpful, thanks. If people are not ready to accept Rumi as Turk (because he was not a mighty, fierce fighter?) what else can we do other than accepting compromise solutions of avoiding to add to him an alien identity... (I guess Rumi was more Martian than Persian but alas...) Although if I were MV I would not go into the casual reader in BBAA thing, as the concepts about Turks, Arabs, moslems etc are quite complicated in and around that area. Call Rumi whatever you wish, all the same they would put him in the quite wide "turco" basket; which is not a problem for me... -- E4024 ( talk) 22:09, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
I went in and made some modifications, primarily with the intent of making the WP:Lede more accessible to a wider public, and to remove any highly contentious issue (i.e. heritage) which simply can't be discussed at length in a lede. To reduce bulk, I also created a "Name" section where we detail all the terms he is known by. It's just simply not feasible to discuss eight different names in the lede without compromising legibility. I also removed the way too glib/conclusive "Persian heritage", and instead have a sentence at the end of the first para simply saying "it's a contested issue", and noting he lived in Rum and wrote primarily in Persian.
The (somewhat) downside is that some of my moves chopped out huge wads of references. Not necessarily a huge number so much as massive walls of footnote text arguing one case or another. Let us definitely bear those in mind for going back to old drafts to check for any good footnotes, but I submit we carefully pick and avoid the following:
So that's where we're at so far. Can a few folks take a look and tell me if the lede looks less controversial, more focused on basic fundamental facts, and more legible? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 16:06, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Unfortunately due to the messed up situation in the Persian speaking lands (Iran, Tajikistan and Afghanistan), some neighbors are trying to appropriate the Persian heritage (note Afghan, Tajik and Iranian are the inheritors of this) while normal Iranians, Tajiks, Afghans are struggling with political realities. And unfortunately, unaware users try to assist this endevours.
Google books:
Please see Wikipedia's policty about weight and fix the article appropriately.
Also I should mention I can put 1000+ links for "Persian poet Rumi" from google books. So given the fact that the "Turkish poet" Rumi is not an opinion held by any alive Rumi scholar (including Halmann), then one needs to give proper weight to the issue. Else I urge Iranian users to bring 500+ books from google books that puts Persian to show what the proper weight in google books is. Turkish users do not have a single significant alive scholar such as Franklin to backup their point of view. [23]." Please tell me how could such a person be a Turk when he contrasts Greeks so positively against Turks (in a non-poetic setting without any symbolism)? ( [24].) Thanks. -- 96.255.251.165 ( talk) 05:28, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Also their comparison to Latin is a dead-end..as Rumi's lectures are in Persian..Note his lectures were to his students and they are almost all in Persian (with two in Arabic) and none in Turkish. Or his Friday sermons are all in Persian. His son has claimed poor knowledge of Turkish and Greek.. -- 96.255.251.165 ( talk) 07:05, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
One can only quote scholars who write authoritatively about Rumi. The most important biography is now that of Franklin Lewis. Encyclopaedia of Islam also calls him a Persian poet. I'll respond to the proponents of the Turkish theory (absolute fringe) below and their unsound arguments. However, what I want to emphasize is Wikipedia works by weight. 2000+ and 370+ google books call Rumi a "Persian poet" and "Persian mystic" respectively. Wikipedia needs to reflect the most authoritative sources such as a Franklin and the most widely used convention. Else quote a minor random book is like quoting a minor random book that claims Obama is a Muslim. Unless a book is about the biography of Rumi himself (such as Franklin), I think it takes a back set.
Unfortunately, some users have not WP:RS, WP:UNDUE and WP:Weight.
Google books:
(Note four of the books are repeated,many from Turkish authors and none of them specifically deal with Rumi)
Please see Wikipedia's policty about weight and fix the article appropriately.
WP:UNDO is very clear.
Per
WP:UNDO
Now here are two secondary sources clearly showing that the Turkish (nationalist) viewpoint is fringe theory.
“ | “The Turks claim Jelaleddin as their, although a Persian of royal race, born of Balkh, old Bactra, on the groundoof his having sung and died in Qoniya, in Asia Minor… whence he was called Rumi “The Roman,” usually rendered “the Greek,” as wonning with the confies of Oriental Rome” | ” |
That portion is obvious.
Rumi's works are written in the New Persian and his Mathnawi (Masnavi) remains one of the purest literary glories of Persia [1] and a crowning achievement of the Persian language [2]. A Persian literary renaissance (in the 8th/9th century), alonside the development of Sufism [3], started in regions of Sistan, Khorāsān and Transoxiana [4] and by the 10th/11th century, it reinforced the Persian language as the preferred literary and cultural language in the Persian Islamic world. Rumi's importance is considered to transcend national and ethnic borders. His original works are widely read today in their original language across the Persian-speaking world( Iran, Tajikistan, Afghanistan and parts of Persian speaking Central Asia) [5]. Translations of his works are very popular in other countries. His poetry has influenced Persian literature as well as Urdu, Punjabi, Turkish and some other Iranic, Turkic and Indic languages written in Perso/Arabic script e.g. Pashto, Ottoman Turkish, Chagatai language and Sindhi. His poems have been widely translated into many of the world's languages and transposed into various formats. In 2007, he was described as the "most popular poet in America." [6]
He was born to native Persian speaking parents [7] [8] [9], likely in the village of Wakhsh, [10] a small town located at the river Wakhsh in Persia (in what is now Tajikistan). Wakhsh belonged to the larger province of Balkh (parts of now modern Afghanistan and Tajikistan), and in the year Rumi was born, his father was an appointed scholar there. [10].
Greater Balkh was at that time a major center of a Perso-Islamic culture [9] [11] [12] and Khorasani Sufism had developed there for several centuries. Ineed, the most important influences upon Rumi, besides his father, are said to be the Persian poets Attar and Sanai [13]. Rumi in one poem express his appreciation to Attar and Sanai:"Attar was the spirit, Sanai his eyes twain, And in time thereafter, Came we in their train" [14] and mentions in another poem: "Attar has traversed the seven cities of Love, We are still at the turn of one street" [15].
He lived most of his life under the Persianate [16] [17] [18]Seljuq Sultanate of Rum, where he produced his works [19] and died in 1273 AD. He was buried in Konya and his shrine became a place of pilgrimage. [20] Following his death, his followers and his son Sultan Walad founded the Mevlevi Order, also known as the Order of the Whirling Dervishes, famous for its Sufi dance known as the Sama ceremony. He was laid to rest beside his father, and over his remains a splendid shrine was erected. A hagiographical account of him is described in Shams ud-Din Ahmad Aflāki's Manāqib ul-Ārifīn (written between 1318 and 1353). This hagiographical account of his biography needs to be treated with care as it contains both legends and facts about Rumi. [21] For example, Professor Franklin Lewis, Chicago University, in the most complete biography on Rumi has a separate section for the hagiographical biography on Rumi and actual biography about him. [22]
References
Professor Lewis has devoted two pages of his book to the topic of Wakhsh, which he states has been identified with the medieval town of Lêwkand (or Lâvakand) or Sangtude, which is about 65 kilometers southeast of Dushanbe, the capital of present-day Tajikistan. He says it is on the east bank of the Vakhshâb river, a major tributary that joins the Amu Daryâ river (also called Jayhun, and named the Oxus by the Greeks). He further states: "Bahâ al-Din may have been born in Balkh, but at least between June 1204 and 1210 (Shavvâl 600 and 607), during which time Rumi was born, Bahâ al-Din resided in a house in Vakhsh (Bah 2:143 [= Bahâ' uddîn Walad's] book, "Ma`ârif."). Vakhsh, rather than Balkh was the permanent base of Bahâ al-Din and his family until Rumi was around five years old (mei 16-35) [= from a book in German by the scholar Fritz Meier--note inserted here]. At that time, in about the year 1212 (A.H. 608–609), the Valads moved to Samarqand (Fih 333; Mei 29–30, 36) [= reference to Rumi's "Discourses" and to Fritz Meier's book--note inserted here], leaving behind Baâ al-Din's mother, who must have been at least seventy-five years old."Tajiks and Persian admirers still prefer to call Jalaluddin 'Balkhi' because his family lived in Balkh, current day in Afghanistan before migrating westward. However, their home was not in the actual city of Balkh, since the mid-eighth century a center of Muslim culture in (Greater) Khorasan (Iran and Central Asia). Rather, as the Swiss scholar Fritz Meier has shown, it was in the small town of Wakhsh north of the Oxus that Baha'uddin Walad, Jalaluddin's father, lived and worked as a jurist and preacher with mystical inclinations. Franklin Lewis, Rumi Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings, and Poetry of Jalâl al-Din Rumi, 2000, pp. 47–49.
howisit
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).hagiographer1
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The book by the University of Chicago Professor, Prof. Lewis Franklin is considered the most important biography on Rumi and is highly cited and well reviewed by many authors [32] Here is the website of Dr. Franklin: [33]
Unless, the Turkish theory proponents can bring up a serious Rumi scholar (note the keyword “Rumi scholar”) discussing their viewpoint and giving it credence in academia, then they need to accept the fact that their viewpoint is fringe. Simply, they need to find a scholar on the caliber of Franklin (who knows Persian and has written a biography on Rumi that is widely acclaimed and highly cited) which shares their POV.
The only scholarly source I saw that the Turkish users use was Schimmel. This is their source:
They have also ignored these Schimmel quotes:
Given these, the Turkish users cannot use Schimmel. Also she is a passed away scholar. So one must use alive scholars and currently, the most authoritative book on Rumi's biography is that of Franklin.
Note the last book is published in 1994. So it is the definitive opinion ("Persian Mystic). Of course, if an author gives contradictatory viewpoint, then Wikipedia should not use such a source. But as explained she is simply describing the Turkish viewpoint, and then rejecting it by has described Schimmel is not contradiction but in the first quote is just giving the Turkish viewpoint while rejecting it by her firm statement on Rumi's mothertongue)
Note this is the opinion of a Turkish cultural ambassador of Turkey and not necessarily that of Rumi scholars. But it gives a good Turkish viewpoint of the material. Quote 1 (Talat S. Halman, "Rapture and Revolution: Essays on Turkish Literature", editor by Jayne L. Warner, Syracuse University, 2007, p.265-266) (Please note Halman is the only author and Warner is an editor (perhaps of the series)). Here is the quote:
“The available documentary evidence is so flimsy that no nation can invoke jus sanguinis regarding the Rumi genealogy. Besides, an exploration into his background must take into account such additional factors as the tumultuous life of the area in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, the uncertain lineage of rulers and dynasties, miscegenation, and the identity crises resulting from shifting population and mass conversions to Islam. One must also consider, at least speculatively, that Rumi’s family, living in Balkh, perhaps regarded itself as neither Persian nor Turkish nor Arab nor anything else for that matter but as Muslims, refusing to be assimilated or to identify themselves as Persian or Turkish any more than did the Greeks, Armenians or Jews in Balkh.
Bahauddin and his family eventually settled in Konya, ancient Iconium, in central Anatolia. They brought with them their traditional Persian cultural and linguistic background and found in Konya a firmly entrenched penchant for Persian culture. In terms of Rumi’s cultural orientation – including language, literary heritage, mythology, philosophy, and Sufi legacy – the Iranians have indeed a strongly justifiable claim. All of these are more than sufficient to characterize Rumi as a prominent figure of Persian cultural history. Such a characterization is naturally reinforced by his impact on the succeeding centuries of Persian literature and intellectual life. In the West, scholars have always accepted Rumi as Persian on the basis of his exclusive use of the Persian language and because he remained in the mainstream of Persian cultural heritage. No account seems to have been taken of the Turkish and Afghan claims, except some occasional references such as the one by William Hastie in his introduction to The Festival of Spring, featuring his translations from Rumi’s Divan:
“ | “The Turks claim Jelaleddin as their, although a Persian of royal race, born of Balkh, old Bactra, on the groundoof his having sung and died in Qoniya, in Asia Minor… whence he was called Rumi “The Roman,” usually rendered “the Greek,” as wonning with the confies of Oriental Rome” | ” |
In the Encycloapedia of Islam, B. Carra de Vaud and H. Ritter, in separate enteries, make no reference to Rumi as Persian or Turkish, in fact, no reference at all to the question of nationality.
Quote 2
(Talat S. Halman, "Rapture and Revolution: Essays on Turkish Literature", editor by Jayne L. Warner, Syracuse University, 2007, p.266-267) "The Iranian claim on the grounds of the language is inctrovertible, although some Turkish writers have tried to create the impression that Rumi composed a substantial body of verse in Turkish in addition to Persian. The statistical record is clear: The Mesnevi (Persian: Mathnawi) consists of nearly 26,000 couplets; the Divan-i Kebir (Persian Divan-e Kabir) probably has about 40,000 couplets, although the figure varies greatly. Of this vast output, everything is in Persian except for a handful of poems, couplets, lines, and words Turkish, Arabic, Greek, and Hebrew. ... This is infinitesimal compared with his output in Persian. Rumi is patently Persian on the basis of jus et norma loquendi."
--
My analysis:
-- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 18:25, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
As per the repeated OR Turkish claims on this page, it has been responded to here: [ [36]], and much more extensively here: A Study about the Persian Cultural Legacy and Background of the Sufi Mystics Shams Tabrizi and Jalal al-Din Rumi [37] (which has been suspiciously removed from the external links!).
it is mainly centered on three false arguments:
a)
Claim one: Rumi compares himself to a "Turk".
Response:
(Kafadar, Cemal (2007), "A Rome of One’s Own: Reflections on Cultural Geography and Identity in the Lands of Rum", Muqarnas: An Annual on the Visual Cultures of the Islamic World , vol 24:7-25, Brill.)
Also these people ignore the fact that Rumi has called the Ghuzz (Oguz) Turks as savages several times in the Mathnawi (which does not use allegorical symbols) and the Divan.
Or for example many negative quotes about Turks quoted by Aflaki. These are not poetry anymore and cosequently allegory and symbolism does not imply anymore. Amongst the severe ones:
See:
b) Claim two: Rumi uses "Turkish"...
Not sufficient. Rumi also uses Greek as well and the percentage of Greek/Turkish is less than 1/3 of 1% of his poems.
c) the third wrong claim is that: "Persian was popular poetry language"..
This is again discounted by the fact that Rumi's Friday prayer sermons are recorded in Persian, his letters are in Persian and his lectures to his students are recorded in colloquial Persian. Note colloquial Persian lectures show that Rumi's everyday language is Persian.. how come he has no friday sermons in Turkish? Or no lectures in Turkish? Also Arabic was the everyday religious preaching language but Rumi chose Persian. Also the invalidity of this argument can be seen by examinaning the writings of Rumi's son who is specific in the fact the he does not know Greek/Turkish well. Rumi's colloquial lectures are in Persian and similarly his sermons. However, he does not have a single lecture or sermon in Turkish.
d) A fourth wrong claim: "Rumi lived in Turkey under the protection of Turkish sultans. His tomb is in Turkey and he is considered as a Moslem saint by the Turkish people. Maybe his ethnical background was Persian. But what difference does it make ? (Catherine the Great was a Russian empress. Actually she was of German origin. Do we call her a German empress ?) Anyway, after the last edition to call Rumi a Persian poet, the introductory sentence of the article became too chaotic. ( Please try to read the first sentence with four paranthesis, Arabic alphabet, birth and death dates etc. )"
There was no Turkey then. It was Anatolia and the majority of its population were likely Greeks and Armenians, hence the reason Mowlana chose the epiphet "Rumi" (meaning Greek). Also if an Arab was born in Syria under Saljuq rule, it does not make them Turkish. Bear in mind that the Saljuq rulers usually had Persian viziers and indeed the Saljuqs of Rum during the time of Rumi had the Persian Vizier Moin al-Din Parvana. While forgetting that all of Rumi’s colloquial lectures are in Persian which shows him speaking everyday Persian to his students while he does not have a single lecture, sermon or letter in Turkish). Seljuqs also controlled parts of Syria and Ottomans controlled parts of Iraq, Arabia and etc. It doesn’t mean every Arab or Kurd or etc. there has relationship to modern Turkey. Rumi had of course an influence on Turkish culture and is a universal figure. However, he is known for his poetry which is in Persian and you will need to understand Persian to understand Rumi well.
"While the Arabic language retained its primacy in such spheres as law, theology and science, the culture of the Seljuk court and secular literature within the sultanate became largely Persianized; this is seen in the early adoption of Persian epic names by the Seljuq Rulers (Qubad, Kay Khusraw and so on) and in the use of Persian as a literary language (Turkish must have been essentially a vehicle for everyday speech at this time). The process of Persianization accelerated in the thirteenth century with the presence in Konya of two of the most distinguished refugees fleeing before the Mongols, Baha al-din Walad and his son Mewlana Jalal al-din Balkhi Rumi, whose Mathnawi, composed in Konya, constitutes one of the crowning glories of classical Persian literature."
“ | “The Turks claim Jelaleddin as their, although a Persian of royal race, born of Balkh, old Bactra, on the groundoof his having sung and died in Qoniya, in Asia Minor… whence he was called Rumi “The Roman,” usually rendered “the Greek,” as wonning with the confines of Oriental Rome” | ” |
Unfortunately, non-academic arguments without any sources are constantly brought which violate WP:FORUM and WP:SOAPBOX.
Rumi's son Sultan Walad has claimed several times his knowledge of Turkish and Greek is weak. This despite being born in Anatolia. Note he has again about 60000+ verses of Persian and about 250 Greek/Turkish veres.
“Sultan Valad elsewhere admits that he has little knowledge of Turkish”(Franklin Lewis, "Rumi, "Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi", One World Publication Limited, 2008,pg 239)
“Sultan Valad did not feel confident about his command of Turkish”(Franklin Lewis, "Rumi, "Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi", One World Publication Limited, 2008,pg 240) Sultan
For example in his Ebteda-Nama, Sultan Walad admits twice in Persian after some of the lines in Greek/Turkish
[1]:
بگذر از گفت ترکی و رومی
که از این اصطلاح محرومی
گوی از پارسی و تازی
که در این دو همی خوش تازی
Translation:
Let go of the languages of Greek (Rumi) and Turkish (Turki)
Because you lack knowledge in these two,
Thus speak in Persian and Arabic,
Since in these two, you recite very well.
And also elsewhere in Ghazal in his Diwan, he writes::
If I knew Turkish, I would have brought one to a thousand. But when you listen to Persian, I tell the secrets much better.(Sultan Walad, ”Mowlavi-ye Digar:Shamel-e Ghazzaliyat, Qasayed, Qete’at, Tarkibat, Ash’ar-eTorki, Ashar-e Arabi, Mosammat, Robbi’yyat” Tehran, Sana’i, 1984. pg 556:)
ترکچه اگر بیلیدم بر سروزی بک ایدیدم
طتچه اگر دیلرسز گویم اسرار علا
He also says: If I had known Turkish, I would have told you, the secrets that God had imparted on Me.(Mehmed Fuad Koprulu, "Early Mystics in Turkish Literature", Translated by Gary Leiser and Robert Dankoff, Routledge, 2006, pg 253). According to Mehmed Fuad Koprulu, the Turkish poems are: Written in a very crude and primitive manner and with a very defective and rudimentary versification replete with zihaf (pronouncing long vowels short) and imalā (pronouncing a short vowel long).(Mehmed Fuad Koprulu, "Early Mystics in Turkish Literature", Translated by Gary Leiser and Robert Dankoff, Routledge, 2006, pg 206).
References
A Study about the Persian Cultural Legacy and Background of the Sufi Mystics Shams Tabrizi and Jalal al-Din Rumi [38] No need to copy & paste the whole thing.
The number for "Persian Mystic Rumi", "Persian poet Rumi" are overwhelming relative to any other adjective that denotes background. The ratio is close to 100:1..Some of these books are written by rumi scholars and some of them not necessarily from Rumi scholars ..consequently they (non-scholarly ones) only should be used if someone wants to have a contest (which is not appropriate for Wikipedia). However, in order to keep the quality of the article, each author has to be checked based on these criteria: a) Are they scholars of Rumi and know the Persian language?
b) or Are they some non-academics or a writer who has a one line sentence on a piece of work not related to Rumi?
1)
Speros Vryonis,"The Turkish State and History", Aristide D Caratzas Pub; 2 Sub edition (September 1992), p.51: "Djalal al-Din Rumi, the great Persian mystic and poet who lived most of his life in Konya is said to have had a very vivid and violent opinion of the nature of the Turkmen nomads of the Rum sultanate: “There is a well known story that the sheikh Salah al-Din one day hired some Turkmen workmen to build the walls of his garden. "Effendi Salah al-Din", said the master (Rumi), "you must hire Greek workmen for this construction. It is for the work of demolition that Turkish workmen must be hired. For the construction of the world is special to the Greeks, and the demolition of this same world is reserved for the Turks. When God created the universe, he first made the carefree infidels. He gave them a long life and considerable force in such a fashion...that in the manner of paid workmen they constructed the earthly world. They erected numerous cities and mountain fortresses...so that after centuries these constructions served as models to the men of recent times. But divine predestination has disposed of affairs in such a way that little by little the constructions become ruins. He created the people of the Turks in order to demolish, without respect or pity, all the constructions which they see. They have done this and are still doing it. They shall continue to do it day in and day out until the Resurrection!"”
2) Franklin Lewis: "On the question of Rumi's multilingualism (pages 315-17), we may still say that he spoke and wrote in Persian as a native language, wrote and conversed in Arabic as a learned "foreign" language and could at least get by at the market in Turkish and Greek (although some wildly extravagant claims have been made about his command of Attic Greek, or his native tongue being Turkish") (Lewis 2008:xxi). (Franklin Lewis, "Rumi, "Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi", One World Publication Limited, 2008). Franklin Lewis on Turkish scholar and cultural ambassador Onder: "There, we can only surmise that his cultural jingoism represents a conscious effort to rob Rumi of his Persian and Iranian heritage, and claim him for Turkish literature, ethnicity and nationalism") (Lewis 2008:549). (Franklin Lewis, "Rumi, "Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi", One World Publication Limited, 2008) Franklin D. Lewis, "Rumi: Past and Present, East and West: The life, Teaching and poetry of Jalal Al-Din Rumi", Oneworld Publication Limited, 2008 pg 9: "How is that a Persian boy born almost eight hundred years ago in Khorasan, the northeastern province of greater Iran, in a region that we identify today as Central Asia, but was considered in those days as part of the greater Persian cultural sphere, wound up in central Anatolia on the receding edge of the Byzantine cultural sphere". Franklin Lewis:”Living among Turks, Rumi also picked up some colloquial Turkish.”(Franklin Lewis, "Rumi, "Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi", One World Publication Limited, 2008, pg 315). "Rumi also composed a thirteen-line poem with the refrain, "you are the Agapos," from the Greek word agape, meaning 'you are the beloved'. These poems have bits of demotic Greek; these have been identified and translated in French along with some Greek verses of Sultan Valad"(.”(Franklin Lewis, "Rumi, "Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi", One World Publication Limited, 2008, pg 315))
3)Ritter, H.; Bausani, A. "ḎJ̲alāl al- Dīn Rūmī b. Bahāʾ al-Dīn Sulṭān al-ʿulamāʾ Walad b. Ḥusayn b. Aḥmad Ḵh̲aṭībī ." Encyclopaedia of Islam. Edited by: P. Bearman , Th. Bianquis , C.E. Bosworth , E. van Donzel and W.P. Heinrichs. Brill, 2007. Brill Online. Excerpt: "known by the sobriquet Mewlānā, persian poet and founder of the Mewlewiyya order of dervishes"
4)Julia Scott Meisami, Forward to Franklin Lewis, Rumi Past and Present, East and West, Oneworld Publications, 2008 (revised edition)
5) John Renard,"Historical dictionary of Sufism", Rowman & Littlefield, 2005. pg 155: "Perhaps the most famous Sufi who is known to many Muslims even today by his title alone is the seventh/13th century Persian mystic Rumi"
6) Frederick Hadland Davis , "The Persian Mystics. Jalálu'd-Dín Rúmí", Adamant Media Corporation (November 30, 2005) , ISBN 978-1-4021-5768-4.
7) Annemarie Schimmel, The Triumphal Sun: A Study of the Works of Jalaloddin Rumi, SUNY Press, 1993, p. 193: "Rumi's mother tongue was Persian, but he had learned during his stay in Konya, enough Turkish and Greek to use it, now and then, in his verse". Annemarie Schimmel, "The Mystery of Numbers",Oxford University Press, Apr 7, 1994. pg 51:"These examples are taken from the Persian mystic Rumi's work, not from Chinese, but they express the yang-yin relationship with perfect lucidity."
8) Cyril Glassé, Huston Smith, "The New Encyclopedia of Islam", Rowman Altamira, 2003. pg 235:"He was of Persian origin from Balkh, but left at an early age with his father Baha' ad-Din Walad, a scholar who had disagreements with the rulers".
9) Seyyed Hossein Nasr, “The Garden of Truth: The Vision and Promise of Sufism, Islam's Mystical Tradition”, Harper Collins, Sep 18, 2007. Pg 204:”Of Persian origin and born in Balkh, Rumi, the poet whose poems now are the most widely sold in America, spent the last forty years of his life in Konya in Anatolia.”
10) Jelaluddin Rumi, Andrew Harvey, Lekha Singh,"Call to Love: In the Rose Garden with Rumi", Sterling Publishing Company, Sep 1, 2007 - 112 pages. Backcover: “The Persian mystic Rumi, who lived and wrote in thirteenth-century Turkey, has become the most widely read poet in America today.
11)
Sheila Blair, Jonathan M. Bloom, "Rivers of paradise: water in Islamic art and culture",Yale University Press, 2009. pg 53:"This idea is expressed by the Persian mystic Rumi, currently the best-selling poet in the United States: "The sea bears up one who is dead: but if he be living,.."
12)
Carl W. Ernst, "Rethinking Islam in the contemporary world", Edinburgh University Press, 2004. pg 244:"Currently, the best-known representative of Sufism is the classical Persian poet Rumi, who is often represented as someone who transcended all religions.5 Many people wonder what relationship, if any, Sufism has to Islam"
13)
Richard Ettinghausen, Oleg Grabar, Marilyn Jenkins-Madina,"Islamic Art and Architecture, 650-1250 "Yale University Press, Jul 11, 2003. pg 134: "In effect then, wherever their conquests took them, the Turks, or at least their princes, carried largely Persian culture and Persian ideas, even the Persian language. The greatest Persian mystic poet, Jalal al-Din Rumi, lived and wrote in Konya in central Anatolia"
14) Tambi-Piḷḷai Isaac Tambyah, "Psalms of a Saiva Saint", Asian Educational Services, 1925, page 157:"The Persian mystic, Rumi, exclaims, "I gazed into my heart and there I saw Him who was nowhere else”.
15) Stephen Arroyo, “Person-to-Person Astrology: Energy Factors in Love, Sex and Compatibility”, North Atlantic Books, Jun 21, 2011. Pg 114: The Persian mystic Rumi, whose works have recently become widely known in the Western world for their inspirational beauty and profound spiritual insights, has written: “Love is the astrolabe of God's mysteries.”
16) Brush Dance, “A Journal with the Poetry of Rumi”, BRUSH DANCE Incorporated, Dec 1, 2001 “This beautifully designed writing journal features the poetry of 13th-century Persian mystic Rumi and the colorful and inspiring artwork of Michael Green.”</ref>.
17) William J. Duiker, Jackson J. Spielvogel, "World History: Volume 1",Cengage Learning, Dec 26, 2008 pg 245:"In this poem, the thirteenth-century Persian poet Rumi describes the mystical relationship achieved by means of passionate music and dance"
18) Mariam Naseem, "Not Without My Son: As Told to Lee Gittler Steup", AuthorHouse, Jan 19, 2010. pg 26:"I finish this chapter with the words of the oldest and greatest Persian poet, Rumi," https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Rumi+persian+poet%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1#hl=en&tbo=1&tbm=bks&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22Persian+poet+Rumi%22&oq=%22Persian+poet+Rumi%22&gs_l=serp.3...8097.10644.0.10813.19.19.0.0.0.0.156.1417.16j3.19.0.efrsh..0.0...1.9GrMo9DB8sQ&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=9a8fbacd776db0ec&biw=1536&bih=718
19) N. Hanif, "Biographical Encyclopedia of Sufis",Volume 3 of Biographical encyclopaedia of Sufis", Sarup & Sons, 2000. pg 18: "Shah Abdul Latif had an unflinching faith in the great Persian poet Rumi"
20) AC Hunsberger, "Nasir Khusraw, the Ruby of Badakhshan: A Portrait of the Persian Poet, Traveller and Philosopher", I.B.Tauris, 2003. page xiii: "If Nasir Khusraw is less well-known today, even in Iran, than other Persian poets such as Sa'di, Khayyam, Rumi or Hafiz, other travel chroniclers and historians such as Ibn Battuta or Ibn Khaldun"
21) Wayne Teasdale , “The Mystic Heart: Discovering a Universal Spirituality in the World's Religions”, New World Library, Mar 9, 2001. Pg 224: “The Persian mystic Rumi, one of the greatest Islamic poet sages..”
22)
Charles Dudley Warner, "A Library of the World's Best Literature - Ancient and Modern - Vol.XXXII (Forty-Five Volumes); Rumi-Schrer",
Cosimo, Inc., 2008. pg 2487: "The appelation Rumi, or Syrian, is given to the Persian poet Jalal al-Din because most of his life was passed at Iconium in Rumi or Asia Minor"
23) R Kane, "The Significance of Free Will", Oxford University Press, 1996, pg 3: "There is a disputation [that will continue] till mankind are raised from the dead between the Necessitarians and the partisans of Free Will. —Jalalu'ddin Rumi, twelfth-century Persian poet "
24) Fayeq Oweis, "Encyclopedia of Arab American Artists",ABC-CLIO, 2008. pg 121: "The Post-Apollo Press has also published one of the most important scholarly studies on the great spiritual master and Persian poet Jalaluddin Rumi (1207-1273) and his life and work"
25) Edward E. Curtis, "Encyclopedia of Muslim-American history",Infobase Publishing, 2010. pg 503:"Rumi, a Persian poet and theologian, inspired movement in the 13th century Turkey.."
26) Salma Khadra Jayyusi, Manuela Marín, "The Legacy of Muslim Spain", BRILL, 1992. pg 545:"Mystical poets like the Persian poet Rumi were to reach new extremes of delicacy and preciosity in seeing in the intimate union of the rose (gol) and sugar (shekar) .."
27) Thom Cavalli, "Alchemical Psychology: Old Recipes for Living in a New World", Penguin, Mar 1, 2002. pg 260: "I have often quoted the great Persian poet Rumi.." [39]
28) Zenius, "Arete", AuthorHouse, 2011. pg 171: "the Persian Poet, Rumi, may have been their greatest and Tagore may have been the top poet of the Indian sub-continent. .."
29) John L. Jackson, David Kyuman Kim, "Race, Religion, and Late Democracy",SAGE, 2011. pg 62:"Famous New Age writer Paolo Coelho made an annual trip to Iran, where he has in the past lectured on the Sufi, Persian poet Rumi"
30) Deirdre Johnson ,"Love: Bondage or Liberation? A Psycholological Exploration of the Meaning, Values and Dangers of Falling in Love", Karnac Books, Jun 30, 2010 . pg xiii: "The Persian writer Rumi, is one of the most widely read poets at the moment".
31) Geela, "The American dream: an immigrant's true life story of winning against all odds",Indiana University. pg 22: "Similarly, many great thinkers and scientists such as Albert Einstein and the great Persian philosopher Rumi have described the universe as more of a great thought than an object." [40]
32) John Baldock, "Essence of Rumi ", Chartwell Books (September 2005). pg 68: ..writings of Rumi and other Persian poets of the twelfth and.."
33) Rumi, Ehsan Yarshater, Hasan Javadi and A. J. Arberry , "Mystical Poems of Rumi", University Of Chicago Press (April 15, 2009) . " Front Matter: "... Persian mystical poet Maulänä.."
34) Wayne Teasdale and the Dalai Lama, "The mystical heart: Discovering a Universal Spirituality in the World's Religions", New World Library, 2001. pg 222: "The Persian mystic Rumi, one of the great Islamic poet sages, comments.."
35) Roger Housden , "Ten Poems to Change Your Life",Random House Digital, Inc., 2001. pg 14: "Eight hundred years earlier, the Persian mystic Rumi said:.."
36)
A. Avery, G., A Reynolds, K, "Representations of Childhood Death", Palgrave Macmillan, 2000. pg 158: "his free translations of the work of the Persian mystic Rumi".
37) Rachel Pollack, "The power of ritual",Dell Pub., 2000. pg 23:"The Persian mystic Rumi wrote of God as "the Beloved"
38) Paul William Roberts , Tauris Parke Paperbacks, Oct 17, 2006 . pg 22:"Besides major poets like the Persian Rumi, the order produced numerous Sufi masters who were, and are, believed to possess spiritual powers and the ability to perform miracles."
39) John J. K. Lee, "Receiving God's Deeper Messages: The Pilgrimage Of A Truth-seeking Christian", iUniverse, 2005. pg 77:"Persian poet Rumi expressed this insight beautifully in the following poem. The entire world, "
40) Christopher K. Germer, Sharon Salzberg , "The Mindful Path to Self-Compassion: Freeing Yourself from Destructive Thoughts and Emotions", Guilford Press, 2009. pg 91: "Consider the following poem from the Persian poet Rumi.."
41) Jan Philips, "Divining the body: reclaim the holiness of your physical self", SkyLight Paths Publishing, Mar 30, 2005. pg 7: "The Persian poet Rumi.."
42)
T. Tymieniecka,” Islamic Philosophy and Occidental Phenomenology on the Perennial Issue of Microcosm and Macrocosm”, Springer, Aug 29, 2006. “The story of true love is so sweet that it not only cannot be narrated in one paper, but, as the Persian mystic Rumi says: 26 However much we describe and explain love, When we come to love we are ashamed of it.”,
43) David J. Roxburgh , "Writing the word of God: calligraphy and the Qur'an", Yale University Press, 2008.
44) Luci Shaw, Eugene H. Peterson, "Water My Soul: Cultivating the Interior Life", Regent College Publishing. pg 130: "Rumi, Persian poet".
45) Ilʹi͡a Pavlovich Petrushevskiĭ, "Islam in Iran ", SUNY Press, 1985. pg 399: "Rumi Persian poet and mystic"
46) Bernard Grun , "The timetables of history: a horizontal linkage of people and events", Simon & Schuster, 1991. "Djelaleddin Rumi, Persian poet, founder of the Order of Dancing Dervishes" [41]
47) Y. C. Simhadri, "Youth in the contemporary world",Mittal Publications, 1989 . pg 118: "The evation of the evils of mundane political systems was summarised by the Persian philosopher Jalal-eddin Al-Rumi in these terms: “The princely all seductive terms, but behind them lie death, torment, and the loss of our life"
48) Nyogen Senzaki, Eidō Shimano, Soen Nakagawa,"Like a Dream, Like a Fantasy: The Zen Teachings and Translations of Nyogen", Wisdom Publications, Aug 31, 2005. pg 99: "Jalal-ud-Din Rumi was a Persian philosopher and poet of the early thirteenth century"
49) Alice Peck , " SkyLight Paths Publishing, May 30, 2008. pg 4: "Jalal ad-Din ar-Rumi, the Persian sage and poet mystic who wrote during the thirteenth century, sees sowing and consumption— the beginning and the end—as one, as a cycle"
50) Michael Sebastian, "1-Step Solution Just Say Hu", AuthorHouse, 2009. pg 50: "Rumi, Jalal ad-Din, 1207-73, great Islamic Persian sage and poet mystic, b. in Balkh",.
51)
Seyyed Hossein Nasr, "Islamic Art and Spirituality", Suny Press, 1987. pg 115:"Jalal al-Din was born in a major center of Persian culture, Balkh, from Persian speaking parents, and is the product of that Islamic Persian culture which in the 7th/13th century dominated the 'whole of the eastern lands of Islam and to which present day Persians as well as Turks, Afghans, Central Asian Muslims and the Muslims of the Indo-Pakistani and the Muslims of the Indo-Pakistani subcontinent are heir. It is precisely in this world that the sun of his spiritual legacy has shone most brillianty during the past seven centuries. The father of Jalal al-Din, Muhammad ibn Husayn Khatibi, known as Baha al-Din Walad and entitled Sultan al-'ulama', was an oustanding Sufi in Balkh connected to the spiritual lineage of Najm al-Din Kubra."
52)
Laura Resau, : "The Ruby Notebook “,Random House Digital, Inc., Jan 10, 2012 . p149: “You know, the Persian mystic Rumi mentions a Layla in his poetry.”
53) Andrew Harvey,"Call to Love: In the Rose Garden with Rumi",Sterling Publishing Company, 2007. "The Persian mystic Rumi, who lived and wrote in thirteenth-century Turkey, has become the most widely read poet in America today"
54)
Robert Whittemore,The Review of Metaphysics Vol. 9, No. 4 (Jun., 1956), pp. 681-699.
"It is, however, important to note that the inspiration for Iqbal's panpsychism is not any thinker of the west but rather the famed Persian mystic, Rum"
[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16]. [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53]
References
If there is ever a need for an Iranian section (which there isn't since WP:weight applies and top scholars like Franklin/Encycloapedia of Islam must be given weight, and the other viewpoints do not have equivalent weight), one can write:
Western authoritative scholars such as Franklin Lewis have criticized Turkish authorities for trying to rob Rumi of his Iranian heritage and have dismissed the extravagant claim that his native language was Turkish [1]. Turkish scholar Halman points to the fact that Western scholars have always accepted Rumi as Persian due to his exclusive use of the Persian language and because he remained in the mainstream Persian cultural heritage. [2]. According to Prof. Speros Vyronis, based on a passage from Aflaki (a student of Rumi and his first biogpher), Rumi had a violent opinion of the nature of Turks [3]. Iranian scholar Firuz Mansuri has noted that Sultan Walad belittles Turks in several poems and also has mentioned several times that his knowledge of Turkish and Greek is weak [4]. R. Minutalab also analyzes the Ma'arif of Rumi's father and the lectures of Rumi and notes: "The language of Vakhsh in Tajikistan was also Persian as shown by the colloquial everyday language of Ma‘arif" and "that the Fihi ma Fih and the seven sermon shows that the everyday spoken language by Rumi was Persian", discounting the viewpoint that the poet only used the language for literary reasons [5]. For further explanation on Rumi's Iranian background, one can refer to the recent monograph of Dr. Minutalab [6]. Likewise, in mystical Persian poetry, the words Rumi, Turk, Hindu and Zangi take symbolic non-ethnic meaning and this has led to some confusions for those that are not familiar with Persian poetry, with Rumi describing himself as not a Turk, Turk, Hindu, Greek, Black [7]. Oxford historian C.E. Bosworth has mentioned the process of Persianization was accelerated by Rumi's father and son [8]. Overall, numerous sources have supposed Rumi as a native Persian speaker and as a Persian poet/mystic [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24]. [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] [58] [59] [60]
and 1000s+ more in google books and google scholars [42] [43].-- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 21:25, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
References
Wikipedia is concerned about weight. Google books/scholars as well as the most authoritative living scholars such as Franklin overwhelmingly state Persian. And scholars such as Franklin have directly criticized the Turkish claim while even Turkish scholars such as Halmann claim that Western "scholars" (note scholars and not some random book) consider Rumi as a Persian poet. Of course Halmann tries to rationalize this by saying because Rumi wrote in Persian, however there are much more evidence here: [44]. So wikipedia needs to restore the correct version: [45].
Unfortunately, ignorant users have attacked this page constantly, and bring 5-6 random books from their 19 book google search whose authors have no authority in Rumi studies.. Some of the books are outright ridicolous with authors having no university and academic background, and just writing one sentence on Rumi. Else Iranian users can do a search from 2000-3000+ google books and overwhelm the punty 5-6 books written by non-experts. Until the Turkish users can suggest an alive Western scholars with the status of Franklin Lewis who has written the ultimate biography of Rumi, and such scholars as Arberry, Encyclopaedia of Islam, Julia Meisami, etc.., then they need to desist from vandalizing this page. The book of Lewis has been overwhelmingly positively reviewed as shown in www.scholar.google.com .. wikipedia consequently must also follow scholarly sources. However, even their semi-unbiased Turkish scholars such as Halmann claim that Western scholars consider Rumi as a Persian. That is sufficient than for Wikipedia and these Turkish nationalists need to find a new play ground to appropriate Persian history. For more details see here: [46]. Thank you. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 15:47, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
To the above user: How nicely you have written; with sources and all. I wonder why and lament you are not a registered user. Or have you been one in the past? I would like to see you writing articles; for example all those related to Turkish gastronomy... All the best. -- E4024 ( talk) 13:47, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Mr Talat Halman (not Halmann) says, in the ref supplied, that ... (this and that) take him as Persian, not that he (the Turkish scholar Halman) does so. If you read more of Halman you will probably sense he is complaining of that situation. -- E4024 ( talk) 17:30, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
I am asking admin intervention for removing the anti-Turkish POV above and for sanctions against the user. -- E4024 ( talk) 17:55, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Okay, then Halman is clear: "the West, scholars have always accepted Rumi as Persian on the basis of his exclusive use of the Persian language and because he remained in the mainstream of Persian cultural heritage. No account seems to have been taken of the Turkish and Afghan claims, except some occasional references such as the one by William Hastie in his introduction to The Festival of Spring, featuring his translations from Rumi’s Divan: ""The Turks claim Jelaleddin as their, although a Persian of royal race, born of Balkh, old Bactra, on the groundoof his having sung and died in Qoniya, in Asia Minor… whence he was called Rumi “The Roman,” usually rendered “the Greek,” as wonning with the confies of Oriental Rome"". So where is this great debate amongst scholars? I do not mind having a section about "politics of Rumi's origin", however him being Persian poet is supported by overwhelming scholarship today and this needs to be reflected in the introduction. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 22:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Simply because it is prose does not mean that it is not allegorical on some level, and even if he were quoted as saying "Turks are jerks" that would not necessarily indicate he is Persian; to assume so directly is OR on our part. If we have a cite from "Dr. Smith" saying "The Turk destroyer story and X/Y/Z indicate...", sure great, let's use that as a cite. Especially on a topic like this, WP:Secondary sources aren't just preferred, they're basically mandatory. I do agree with you that non-Rumi-ologist sources (like the "Inner Wisdom" book) are non-expert and should not be cited here. I also agree that Lewis looks pretty reputable, though we do of course want to avoid leaning too heavily on one academic, expert though he may be.
Regarding What is important is what Western scholars claim and not what Turkish or Iranian scholars claim here, I would quite disagree. If there is a controversy among reputable scholars, that should be addressed. Further, even if Western/Turkish/Iranian scholars were to agree, the fact that the issue is contested in the public discourse is quite important. Again we shouldn't cite primaries, so if some Turkish political group put out a pamphlet called "Rumi: The Greatest Turk" it'd be improper to cite that. However, if a reputable academic writes "Turkish organisations have pushed a view that Rumi is Turkish, producing a pamphlet distributed in millions of copies..." we should cite that academic's analysis of the dispute.
There's a great wiki-essay Wikipedia:Beware of the tigers that is a fun and short read that really applies here. The "tiger" (the controversy) should not be banished from the article, but should be stuffed and mounted as an objective display-piece. The problem we have now is that the "tiger" is roaming the talk page and the article. We don't need to remove the tiger from the museum (pretend there is no global dispute), we just need to portray it vice have it active. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 17:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
I request the users that came up with a new concensus over two days (despite one standing for five years)! to enter mediation. If not, please desist from changing a concensus that has been here for five years. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 22:19, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Whoever has a problem with the lead, will they accept mediation of 3rd party? As the format proposed by some users has multiple flaws including WP:OR, WP:WEIGHT and also not taking into account what authoritative scholars who have written biographies of Rumi (e.g. Franklin) consider. Speros Vryonis,"The Turkish State and History", Aristide D Caratzas Pub; 2 Sub edition (September 1992), p.51: "Djalal al-Din Rumi, the great Persian mystic and poet who lived most of his life in Konya is said to have had a very vivid and violent opinion of the nature of the Turkmen nomads of the Rum sultanate: “There is a well known story that the sheikh Salah al-Din one day hired some Turkmen workmen to build the walls of his garden. "Effendi Salah al-Din", said the master (Rumi), "you must hire Greek workmen for this construction. It is for the work of demolition that Turkish workmen must be hired. For the construction of the world is special to the Greeks, and the demolition of this same world is reserved for the Turks. When God created the universe, he first made the carefree infidels. He gave them a long life and considerable force in such a fashion...that in the manner of paid workmen they constructed the earthly world. They erected numerous cities and mountain fortresses...so that after centuries these constructions served as models to the men of recent times. But divine predestination has disposed of affairs in such a way that little by little the constructions become ruins. He created the people of the Turks in order to demolish, without respect or pity, all the constructions which they see. They have done this and are still doing it. They shall continue to do it day in and day out until the Resurrection!"” This is for example one quote for Persian origin..but I can find much more from google books/scholars. Note primary source for the same quote: (Shams al-Din Aflaki, "The feats of the knowers of God: Manāqeb al-ʻārefīn", translated by John O'Kane, Brill, 2002. (pg 503)) but in Wikipedia, secondary sources are preferred). Thanks-- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 16:50, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi, Your lead violates WP:OR. Because even such Turkish scholars as Halmann agree that Western scholars accept Rumi as Persian. The parable about Turks destroying is not a poem to be symbolic. It is first account witness from Rumi's student Aflaki and is quoted by a secondary source. It is not verse but prose. And I have brought a secondary source (Speros Vyronis) who has mentioned it and says Persian poet Rumi had a violent view about Turks and then quotes the line. I also agree with you that the lead is alittle bit cluttered, however we need to keep the most authoritative sources. Lewis is clear on the issue:
I agree, we should just have two authoritative sources in the introduction and also mention Western scholars consider Rumi to be Persian.. then we can expand on the issue in the origin section if necessary. What is important is what Western scholars claim and not what Turkish or Iranian scholars claim here. The top living Rumi scholar right now is Franklin Lewis and the most important biography written on Rumi in any language is again his book. Your second sentence is OR and is designed to make things "fair", whereas Wikipedia is concerned about authoritative sources. Currently, Franklin and Encycloapedia of Islam (which says Persian poet) are considered the best sources. Specially the book from Franklin has gotten many positive google scholars review. Now contrast this with some of the sources that were brought randomly from google books such as:
I suggest we start with Encycloapedia of Islam: "Ritter, H.; Bausani, A. "ḎJ̲alāl al- Dīn Rūmī b. Bahāʾ al-Dīn Sulṭān al-ʿulamāʾ Walad b. Ḥusayn b. Aḥmad Ḵh̲aṭībī ." Encyclopaedia of Islam. Edited by: P. Bearman , Th. Bianquis , C.E. Bosworth , E. van Donzel and W.P. Heinrichs. Brill, 2007. Brill Online. Excerpt: "known by the sobriquet Mewlānā, persian poet and founder of the Mewlewiyya order of dervishes"-- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 17:29, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
I've restored the last stable version of the article, which had not been changed for years, before someone, unilaterally and without discussion, decided to introduce nationalistic fringe claims, not supported by the mainstream academic sources, into the article which violate WP:Fringe and WP:Weight. Kurdo777 ( talk) 06:15, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
This page has been on my watchlist for years. I totally agree that the stable version that had been there for years should not have been tempered with witout a duscussion· I endorse Kurdo`s restoration of the original version· Penom ( talk) 17:03, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't know why 81.213.117.125 s reasonable suggestion was refused so violently. After all it was suggested to drop the adjective of national heritage. Rumi lived in Turkey under the protection of Turkish sultans. His tomb is in Turkey and he is considered as a Moslem saint by the Turkish people. Maybe his ethnical background was Persian. But what difference does it make ? ( Catherine the Great was a Russian empress. Actually she was of German origin. Do we call her a German empress ?) Anyway, after the last edition to call Rumi a Persian poet, the introductory sentence of the article became too chaotic. ( Please try to read the first sentence with four paranthesis, Arabic alphabet, birth and death dates etc. ) I suggest to simplify the first sentence and add a separate section about his names and different views about his background. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 15:47, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your efforts Matthew. His descendants are Turkish citizens, live in Turkey and speak Turkish and I have never heard or read them saying they have Persian origin. Here you can see a photo of his 22nd generation granddaughter Ms Esin Çelebi... -- E4024 ( talk) 18:18, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
All of you need to stop WP:Soaping. Wikipedia is not a place to promote fringe nationalist theories. We rely on the consensus of scholars on these issues. Rumi, being Persian, is an undisputed fact, supported by thousands of reliable sources as outlined here by objective Google Book and Google Scholar results [47]. That's all that matters in Wikipedia. Your personal opinions, soapboxing, nationalist chest-beating etc, have no place here. Kurdo777 ( talk) 23:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Okay, so the initial changes I made were too bold for folks, so let's instead figure out piece-by-piece what needs to be improved in the lede. I'll post some suggestions in order, and over a few days folks can see how far down the list we have consensus for. Sound workable?
Can we agree that we should enact at least some of these changes? #1-3? #1-2? I'd certainly hope we can at least agree on #1. Let's give it a few days for folks to weigh in, and see what changes we can agree are needed. MatthewVanitas ( talk) 17:29, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
One must follow Wikipedia Policy: 1) I am neutral between CE and AD…I might even be slightly biased towards AD. However, let follow the mainstream and most common Wikipedia policy on that. I am not sure what it is, but either AD or CE is fine. 2) On reducing the number of sources for Persian in the introduction, I think we should put all the 50 sources I have collected here []. Just kidding, I am fine with that and one can choose Encycloapedia of Islam (which directly has mentioned him as a Persian poet) and Franklin (and possibly Speros Vyronis). Franklin and Encycloapedia of Islam are two good sources. They mention “Persian poet” or Persian.. One does not need to know the reason they consider Rumi as “Persian poet”, it is quoted by these top scholarly sources and that is sufficient for Wikipedia. As per the reason why Rumi is considered Persian, that is explained in the book of Franklin somewhat but as even Halman admits, because he remained in the Persian cultural sphere, and wrote Persian. But further proof is that he derides Turks (see Aflaki above and noted by secondary sources Speros), his son did not speak Turkish/Greek well, he uses Shahnama mythology (not Turkish), came from Persian background area Wakhsh, his lectures and talks to his students are in Persian (not Turkish, which goes against the constant claim that he wrote in Persian because it was tradition, whereas his Friday sermons, and lectures to his students and conversations with Shams are all in Persian and he has absolutely not a single Turkish conversation), 99% of his output is Persian, close to 1% in Arabic and less than 1/3 of 1% in Greek and Turkish. All of these things are fairly obvious for scholars like Franklin. Just like Shakespear is not Arabic Shaykh Sabir or Newton’s Englishness is not the subject of lengthy books. Or the claim that Saladin is Turkish is not taken seriously despite constant vandalism by nationalist trolls on that page. 3) Rumi wrote his name in Persian language. Not the modern Turkish language with Latin Alphabet that did not exist nor in Ottoman Turkish which was not formed yet. Consequently, the Persian name in Perso-Arabic script is relevant. Modern Turkish language which did not exist during the time of Rumi is not relevant. Scholars who want to study Rumi must learn the Persian language, not modern Anatolian Turkish created by Ataturk through the language reformation. So Persian language has relevance. If Rumi saw his name in Persian he would understand it as he wrote it in Persian. However, he would not understand the Latin alphabet. This might be relevant as well to his popularity today [ http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LH14Ak01.html
I do not mind a culture section discussing Rumi’s Persian and Sufi culture in more detail.. His biggest influences were Attar and Sanai. He also has quoted a quite a number of Shahnama heroes. However, the “Turkish viewpoint” is fringe and does not belong to Wikipedia. For example, all the Sufi’s in his lineage are Persian..here is how his son Sultan Walad traces their spiritual lineage: Baha al-Walad, Attar, Sanai, Hallaj, Shibli, Abu Sai’d, Karkhi, Junayd Baghdadi, Bayazid Bistami ..and from there to the Prophet Muhammad. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 00:07, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia MOS allows either CE or AD, but CE has generally become the academic standard in the West. WP does say that AD/CE is unnecessary unless its absence would cause ambiguity. I argue it could in this case to avoid any confusion with AH, at least in the lede and infobox.
I'm fine with retaining the cites that are best for "Persian" in the lede, but I very much disagree that a tertiary-source reference book saying "Rumi was a Persian poet who X, Y, Z" counts as a proper reference. Firstly it's tertiary, as noted, secondly no context. If you have cites which say "the case for Rumi's identity is...", then let's use those.
So far as names, I don't have any argument with having the Perso-Arabic script version of his "primary name" and the literary name "Rumi" in the lede, but I don't see the need for lengthy IPA pronunciations in the lede nor multiple variants of his long-name or titles. Those are certainly useful info, but the first para just needs to establish an identity, not cover all contingencies.
So giving it several more days for consensus, but thus far overall positive for CE, a "Names" section, and focusing on maybe 2 of the best and most explicit references for "Persian"? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 00:24, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Encyclopaedia of Islam (Leiden-Brill) is actually not a teriatary source in the way you might think. Each article is written by an expert in the specific field. It is same as Iranica. It is different than Encarta, Britannica, Wikipedia, Larouse, etc who have amaueters and nameless authors, or have non-detail information. For example the article on Rumi is written by two scholars of Persian language and literature. It is in a different league than Encarta or Wikipedia..etc. It is considered a specialized academic source. I have listed 50 sources here.. [48] I am fine with any of these two combinations as they are all well known sources: (Franklin, Encylopaedia of Islam), (Franlin, Nasr), (Franklin, Carl W. Earnest). Also, we simply have to cite what the text says: "Persian poet" or "Persian"..we do not need a book on identity. Just as for Shakespear, if it says "English poet",..one doesn't need to cite a book on Shakespear's identity (which may or may not exist). As far as I know, there has not been a book discussing Rumi's identity, as the issue of him being Persian is accepted due to variety of reasons I gave above and even Halman agrees that Rumi is accepted as Persian by Western scholars, while Franklin calls the Turkish claim extravagant. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 00:33, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
There needs to be a correction made on this page or article. Balk province is in Afghanistan not Tajikistan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonya2012 ( talk • contribs) 00:25, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
A third source could also be added to confirm this (though the second citation for "Tajikistan" does, despite confirming Afghanistan as Rumi's place of birth); Coleman Barks' The Essential Rumi also states that Rumi "was born September 20, 1207, in Balkh Afghanistan" (IX). Afghanis are so familiar with this fact that they call Rumi "Jelaluddin Balkhi." (ibid.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.212.237.243 ( talk) 05:27, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
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Rumi's place of birth needs to be corrected. Balk province is in Present day Afghanistan NOT Tajikistan and actually has been for centuries. Correction needs to be made for Balk Province being in Afghanistan.
Sonya2012 ( talk) 00:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Tajiks and Persian admirers still prefer to call Jalaluddin 'Balkhi' because his family lived in Balkh, current day in Afghanistan before migrating westward. However, their home was not in the actual city of Balkh, since the mid-eighth century a center of Muslim culture in (Greater) Khorasan (Iran and Central Asia). Rather, as the Swiss scholar Fritz Meier has shown, it was in the small town of Wakhsh north of the Oxus that Baha'uddin Walad, Jalaluddin's father, lived and worked as a jurist and preacher with mystical inclinations. Franklin Lewis, Rumi Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings, and Poetry of Jalâl al-Din Rumi, 2000, pp. 47–49. -- Defensor Ursa 00:56, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
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77.168.82.205 ( talk) 14:37, 20 October 2012 (UTC) Ok, this is really sad how Rumi's place of birth is placed as Tajekestan while it was indeed Balkh (that is located in Afghanistan)! Please correct this information. His ethnicity is NOT Persian either. Please stop spreading wrong knowledge!
The article must be edited as soon as possible. 1. Rumi is from Balkh from Afghanistan. Balkh is NOT located in Tajikistan. It is located in the province of Mazar e Sharif in northern Afghanistan. Rumi never lived in Iran and not an Iranian either. In Mathnawi, Rumi himself describes his birthplace in Balkh. The article erroneously places Balkh both in Tajikistan and Afghanistan. 2. It is an abomination to see how Iranians would do whatever possible to rob the cultural heritage of Afghanistan for political purposes. War has destroyed Afghanistan. Its cultural heritage must be preserved. A good example to highlight the error would be to call Mozart a German and Beethoven an Austrian. Hafiz was from Iran. Rumi is from Afghanistan. Iranians and Afghans do share common culture. However, the Iranians have misunderstood the term "Afghan" and associate Afghans with Pashtoons. Wikipedia would only undermine its credibility if it allows false scholarship to propagate on its website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Farhadus ( talk • contribs) 14:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
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There appears to be a typo that needs correcting. Section 4.2 'Prose Works' Fihi MaFihi just at the end of the last paragraph "and lack the sophisticated world play" should be "and lack the sophisticated word play" Heywood123 ( talk) 15:55, 26 October 2012 (UTC)