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Today the word "Rumeli" is sometimes used to indicate the part of Turkey which is in Europe. -- Anyone know exactly how big that area (European Turkey) is in terms of square kilometers? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.219.41.226 ( talk • contribs)
As I've just discovered, there are currently separate articles for Rumelia, Rûm, and Rûm Province, Ottoman Empire. Should the first two not be merged? (One's just a more latinized version of the other, as far as I can tell.) Quartier Latin1968 19:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, Britannica might be one source, but any Turkish dictionary you open you'll find out that 'rum' translates to 'Greek' or in modern times 'Greek of turkish citizenship' [1] [2] [3]. Most importantly, there's a different word to say "Roman". 'Rum' comes from the Arabic 'Ram', which was a name for Byzantium and sometimes for ancient Greece. Either way in post-Byzantine times 'Rum' refers only to Greeks, and it's still in used today for Greeks of Turkish citizenship and Cypriots. Denying this fact is like reducing the status of ethnic Greeks in Turkey and Cyprus to a subjet people who doesn't have the right to claim an ethnicity. Miskin 20:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Well and it just happens that the ancestors of the citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire became known as Yunan only within the borders of the Greek state, and carried the name Rum all the way from the middle ages, so it's not as simple as you think. So according to this logic, ethnic Greeks of muslim countries do not have the right to proclaim a separate ethnicity, is that it? You just admitted that those Greek are known as Rum. It's as if you're suggesting that we should intentionally try to hide the fact that they proclaim an ethnic background by playing with the words. Miskin 21:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore the Islamic desk reference by E. Van Donzel (Brill academic publishers) states that "The Byzantine Empire is called 'Rum' in Arabic, Persian and Turkish...Occasionally it [Rum] also indicates ancient Greece", proving that even in medieval times the original term was linked with ethnic Greeks, or Greek-speakers if you prefer. Miskin 21:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
My debate is on the definition (modern and historical) of 'Rum' in general, and I think my sources are satisfactory. I've also linked 3 dictionaries that I picked at random. It doesn't seem that your link proves in any way that Rum is not used for Greeks. By the time 'Rumelia' was applied there were no Eastern Romans, it appears that you're trying to hide the real translation of the word. Precisely because the importance is the Turkish meaning, it's that meaning that needs to be translated into english, not the etymology of the word. It's like claiming that "anti-semitism" isn't directed towards the Jews because "Semitic peoples" includes Arabs, Phoenicians and other "Afro-asiatic" peoples. Etymology of a word is one thing, definition is another. Miskin 21:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Besides your own assertion is anachronistic, you said the term applies to the citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire and the ethnic Greeks of modern times. But 'Rumelia' wasn't coined in neither of those periods, it was in between, but you never explained what happens then, i.e. before "modern times" and after the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire. Was there an "ethnic Eastern Roman" minority in the Ottoman Empire? And what happened to it afterwards? Then we have other sources saying that 'Rum' was also used occasionally for ancient Greece. 1+1=2, don't you think that it was a term generally applied to Greek-speakers? It probably started off to mean Greek-speakers of the Orthodox Christian faith, i.e. what came to mean "ethic Greeks". Miskin 21:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
You're still not answering my questions. You're still not explaining how did ethnic Greeks in the 19th century came to have the same name as the Eastern Romans (in Greek and Turkish), live in the same lands and speak the same language. Your bolding of certain words and phrases in the dictionary definitions implies a personal interpretation of something self-evident hiding between the lines, an interpretation to which I don't agree. So who were the "Greeks" (Yunan) during the time of the Eastern Romans ( Byzantine Greeks). Did they not exist yet? For your claims to be reasonable you need at least to prove that the Ottomans who coined "Rumelia" made a distinction between Eastern Romans (Rum) and Greeks (Yunan). Miskin 22:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I just don't agree to your interpretation of TDK. I don't see how its use of "historically" excludes modern times. Plus, everybody who was self-recognised as "rhomaios" (Rum) had to be Greek speaking and Greek Orthodox, hence why in modern times you don't get Slavs and Albanians calling themselves Romans but only Greeks. You try to interpret the past without taking the present into consideration, something which is impossible and misleading. Plus it seems that you believe to right-winged arguments (without saying that you're an extremist yourself) by implying that modern Greeks are the ancestors of many different people and the known stories.
Miskin 22:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
And what is your source that Yunan was once used for the people of Morea? Miskin 22:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
But as you see the sources are contradicting each other, namely Britannica which provides an etymology of the term. Miskin 22:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes but you're forgetting that the TDK gives definitions in Turkish and not English, and how they would be translated is open to interpretations. The dictionaries I linked gave definitions directly in English. Miskin 01:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
It's not about believing you or not, it's about comparing your interpretation to other from-Turkish-to-English translations. Miskin 10:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Is it "Rumeli" or "Rumelia"? Rumeli seems to be the word with the translation, however even the map says Rumelia, and having the first line not agree with the page title, the map, and whatever else is rather confusing, especially when there's not even mention of it also being called Rumelia anywhere in the intro. If there're no complaints about Rumelia, I'll change it to match, I just don't want to go starting an edit war if there's some reason for the difference, since it seems there's already been a bit of discussion about other names. - Bbik 03:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Italic text Just some points of intrest.On the rumelia map,you will notice that although not so visible .on the Turkish side..the word ANATOLIA is printed to DONATE the country or turkish empire. AS we all might know at one point in history the empire of turkey was also known as ANATOLIA..the INTRESTING point is the word ANATOLIA is greek.which means THE EAST.(anatwly).But just as intresting is the fact that the TURKS named greece as RUMELIA. NOW WAS that a gesture of UNITY ...? THE OTHER POINT OF INTEREST..IS THE WORD ROMEUS. ask any greek about the fall of constantinople and what ever the end of the discussion is they will always finish off . With (kai ego romeus emai)= meaning and i also am a ROMEUS!..meaning (I AM GREEK).BUT the meaning goes down deeper as to verify that CONSTANTINOPLE will never be forgotten. AND to identify THAT as long as one declares them selves as ROMEUS the OROTHODOX RELEGION WILL NEVER DIE..NOR MORE IMPORTANLY THE GREEKS (HELLENES) THEM SELVES as a ETHNOS. IT DOES not matter wich part of the world a greek may settle they always take their ETHNOS with them.BY USING the word romeus they are declaring !!! Name us what you want we know who we are.. Έ Ormorfia 02:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)ormorfia
The decision above was the right one about not merging Rumelia with Rum & other administrative divisions, but see discussion at Ottoman territories in Europe about merging that article with this one. — LlywelynII 13:08, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Mosque have no nationality. There was no Slovenia when this mosque existed. There was only Austria-Hungary. Picture is interesting but I don't see why is it related to Rumelia?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:30, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Rumeli (in Turkish) < "Romania" ("The land of the Romans", but later it just became a geographic name.) The Old European maps show Rumelia as "Romania". Böri ( talk) 13:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
The Greek surname Roumeliotis comes from a bastardisation of the spelling of this region and there are many descendents from the now Turkish region with this last name. There is quite a significant number of people within Greece with this surname also where it is akin to a "Smith" or "Brown" last name -- 124.186.119.250 ( talk) 19:59, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Really. Every second article that crosses cultural boundaries to do with Turkey has a pro-Turkish bias on Wikipedia. What in the name of Allah gets in people's heads that they're lacking in proudness of their own culture that they have to claim everything to do with another country's or regions culture?
Can someone please explain to me what is going on? -- 101.179.104.172 ( talk) 05:48, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
I removed the two following sentences, complete with parens and bold, from the main text where they seemed misplaced. It's about the many denominations of the Eastern Roman Empire.
-- Noliscient ( talk) 10:28, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
If Turkey in Europe redirects here, then it needs to be addressed in the page. — LlywelynII 04:56, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
Why is it so difficult to mention atrocious crimes of the Ottoman Turks in this article.
05:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC)05:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC) 43.242.178.162 ( talk) 05:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC)\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\05:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC)05:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC)~~\\\\\\\\\
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Rumelia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Today the word "Rumeli" is sometimes used to indicate the part of Turkey which is in Europe. -- Anyone know exactly how big that area (European Turkey) is in terms of square kilometers? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.219.41.226 ( talk • contribs)
As I've just discovered, there are currently separate articles for Rumelia, Rûm, and Rûm Province, Ottoman Empire. Should the first two not be merged? (One's just a more latinized version of the other, as far as I can tell.) Quartier Latin1968 19:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, Britannica might be one source, but any Turkish dictionary you open you'll find out that 'rum' translates to 'Greek' or in modern times 'Greek of turkish citizenship' [1] [2] [3]. Most importantly, there's a different word to say "Roman". 'Rum' comes from the Arabic 'Ram', which was a name for Byzantium and sometimes for ancient Greece. Either way in post-Byzantine times 'Rum' refers only to Greeks, and it's still in used today for Greeks of Turkish citizenship and Cypriots. Denying this fact is like reducing the status of ethnic Greeks in Turkey and Cyprus to a subjet people who doesn't have the right to claim an ethnicity. Miskin 20:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Well and it just happens that the ancestors of the citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire became known as Yunan only within the borders of the Greek state, and carried the name Rum all the way from the middle ages, so it's not as simple as you think. So according to this logic, ethnic Greeks of muslim countries do not have the right to proclaim a separate ethnicity, is that it? You just admitted that those Greek are known as Rum. It's as if you're suggesting that we should intentionally try to hide the fact that they proclaim an ethnic background by playing with the words. Miskin 21:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore the Islamic desk reference by E. Van Donzel (Brill academic publishers) states that "The Byzantine Empire is called 'Rum' in Arabic, Persian and Turkish...Occasionally it [Rum] also indicates ancient Greece", proving that even in medieval times the original term was linked with ethnic Greeks, or Greek-speakers if you prefer. Miskin 21:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
My debate is on the definition (modern and historical) of 'Rum' in general, and I think my sources are satisfactory. I've also linked 3 dictionaries that I picked at random. It doesn't seem that your link proves in any way that Rum is not used for Greeks. By the time 'Rumelia' was applied there were no Eastern Romans, it appears that you're trying to hide the real translation of the word. Precisely because the importance is the Turkish meaning, it's that meaning that needs to be translated into english, not the etymology of the word. It's like claiming that "anti-semitism" isn't directed towards the Jews because "Semitic peoples" includes Arabs, Phoenicians and other "Afro-asiatic" peoples. Etymology of a word is one thing, definition is another. Miskin 21:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Besides your own assertion is anachronistic, you said the term applies to the citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire and the ethnic Greeks of modern times. But 'Rumelia' wasn't coined in neither of those periods, it was in between, but you never explained what happens then, i.e. before "modern times" and after the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire. Was there an "ethnic Eastern Roman" minority in the Ottoman Empire? And what happened to it afterwards? Then we have other sources saying that 'Rum' was also used occasionally for ancient Greece. 1+1=2, don't you think that it was a term generally applied to Greek-speakers? It probably started off to mean Greek-speakers of the Orthodox Christian faith, i.e. what came to mean "ethic Greeks". Miskin 21:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
You're still not answering my questions. You're still not explaining how did ethnic Greeks in the 19th century came to have the same name as the Eastern Romans (in Greek and Turkish), live in the same lands and speak the same language. Your bolding of certain words and phrases in the dictionary definitions implies a personal interpretation of something self-evident hiding between the lines, an interpretation to which I don't agree. So who were the "Greeks" (Yunan) during the time of the Eastern Romans ( Byzantine Greeks). Did they not exist yet? For your claims to be reasonable you need at least to prove that the Ottomans who coined "Rumelia" made a distinction between Eastern Romans (Rum) and Greeks (Yunan). Miskin 22:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I just don't agree to your interpretation of TDK. I don't see how its use of "historically" excludes modern times. Plus, everybody who was self-recognised as "rhomaios" (Rum) had to be Greek speaking and Greek Orthodox, hence why in modern times you don't get Slavs and Albanians calling themselves Romans but only Greeks. You try to interpret the past without taking the present into consideration, something which is impossible and misleading. Plus it seems that you believe to right-winged arguments (without saying that you're an extremist yourself) by implying that modern Greeks are the ancestors of many different people and the known stories.
Miskin 22:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
And what is your source that Yunan was once used for the people of Morea? Miskin 22:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
But as you see the sources are contradicting each other, namely Britannica which provides an etymology of the term. Miskin 22:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes but you're forgetting that the TDK gives definitions in Turkish and not English, and how they would be translated is open to interpretations. The dictionaries I linked gave definitions directly in English. Miskin 01:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
It's not about believing you or not, it's about comparing your interpretation to other from-Turkish-to-English translations. Miskin 10:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Is it "Rumeli" or "Rumelia"? Rumeli seems to be the word with the translation, however even the map says Rumelia, and having the first line not agree with the page title, the map, and whatever else is rather confusing, especially when there's not even mention of it also being called Rumelia anywhere in the intro. If there're no complaints about Rumelia, I'll change it to match, I just don't want to go starting an edit war if there's some reason for the difference, since it seems there's already been a bit of discussion about other names. - Bbik 03:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Italic text Just some points of intrest.On the rumelia map,you will notice that although not so visible .on the Turkish side..the word ANATOLIA is printed to DONATE the country or turkish empire. AS we all might know at one point in history the empire of turkey was also known as ANATOLIA..the INTRESTING point is the word ANATOLIA is greek.which means THE EAST.(anatwly).But just as intresting is the fact that the TURKS named greece as RUMELIA. NOW WAS that a gesture of UNITY ...? THE OTHER POINT OF INTEREST..IS THE WORD ROMEUS. ask any greek about the fall of constantinople and what ever the end of the discussion is they will always finish off . With (kai ego romeus emai)= meaning and i also am a ROMEUS!..meaning (I AM GREEK).BUT the meaning goes down deeper as to verify that CONSTANTINOPLE will never be forgotten. AND to identify THAT as long as one declares them selves as ROMEUS the OROTHODOX RELEGION WILL NEVER DIE..NOR MORE IMPORTANLY THE GREEKS (HELLENES) THEM SELVES as a ETHNOS. IT DOES not matter wich part of the world a greek may settle they always take their ETHNOS with them.BY USING the word romeus they are declaring !!! Name us what you want we know who we are.. Έ Ormorfia 02:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)ormorfia
The decision above was the right one about not merging Rumelia with Rum & other administrative divisions, but see discussion at Ottoman territories in Europe about merging that article with this one. — LlywelynII 13:08, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Mosque have no nationality. There was no Slovenia when this mosque existed. There was only Austria-Hungary. Picture is interesting but I don't see why is it related to Rumelia?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:30, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Rumeli (in Turkish) < "Romania" ("The land of the Romans", but later it just became a geographic name.) The Old European maps show Rumelia as "Romania". Böri ( talk) 13:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
The Greek surname Roumeliotis comes from a bastardisation of the spelling of this region and there are many descendents from the now Turkish region with this last name. There is quite a significant number of people within Greece with this surname also where it is akin to a "Smith" or "Brown" last name -- 124.186.119.250 ( talk) 19:59, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Really. Every second article that crosses cultural boundaries to do with Turkey has a pro-Turkish bias on Wikipedia. What in the name of Allah gets in people's heads that they're lacking in proudness of their own culture that they have to claim everything to do with another country's or regions culture?
Can someone please explain to me what is going on? -- 101.179.104.172 ( talk) 05:48, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
I removed the two following sentences, complete with parens and bold, from the main text where they seemed misplaced. It's about the many denominations of the Eastern Roman Empire.
-- Noliscient ( talk) 10:28, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
If Turkey in Europe redirects here, then it needs to be addressed in the page. — LlywelynII 04:56, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
Why is it so difficult to mention atrocious crimes of the Ottoman Turks in this article.
05:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC)05:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC) 43.242.178.162 ( talk) 05:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC)\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\05:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC)05:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC)~~\\\\\\\\\