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If he hinted at having been born as early as 1900, a New York State Census (1925, behind a paywall) shows a "Rudolf J. Wanderone" aged 12. This is the only person identified as having such a name born in New York State. Some obituaries show him born on 19 January 1900 and some show him born on 19 January 1913. It is highly unlikely that anyone could be 25 and look 12.
Not behind a paywall, he is shown in the US Census as a cashier at a billiard parlor at the age 27 at the Arlington Hotel in Shreveport, Caddo County, Louisiana. [1] Pbrower2a ( talk) 04:23, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
User:Hag2 graciously responded to the article's second request for peer review and did a big copy-editing job on it. I also added some new (sourced) information and an image. Previous issues with how to handle the filmography and bibliography settled (the material was merged back in to the main prose). Aside from various missing material (Wanderone's time in Chicago, what exactly he did to get the BCA Hall of Fame induction, the irony of it given his hatred of the BCA – not even mentioned in the article yet – etc.), this is getting very close to a good Featured Article candidate. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:43, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. This discussion raised of a fictional character and a real-life person of the same occupation named after that character raised a set of complex issues. Good cases were made for and against the proposal, but there is a consensus to reject this particular proposal. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 22:50, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
– WP:NC says "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article." It gives examples such as Lady Gaga, not "Stefani Germanotta". Similarly, you have Kid Rock, not "Robert Ritchie"; Magic Johnson, not "Earvin Johnson"; et cetera. Pop culture knows him almost exclusively as "Minnesota Fats", so to have his article not be at "Minnesota Fats" is preposterous.
Even the New York Times obit has "Minnesota Fats", not "Rudolf Wanderone", in the title. The book used as a reference in the article says "Minnesota Fats", not "Rudolf Wanderone". It's clear that "Minnesota Fats" is by far the most common name ( WP:COMMONNAME) to which he is referred. Anyone looking for "Minnesota Fats" on Wikipedia is almost certainly looking for the pool player, not the fictional character of the same name — "Rudolf Wanderone" has 5323 hits vs. 2462 for "Minnesota Fats", and I would bet anything that most of those 2462 are people looking for Wanderone, not the fictional character.
This move was previously discussed in 2008 with a result of "no consensus". I think WP:COMMONNAME is a valid argument here — he's not the only thing called "Minnesota Fats", nor the first, but he's by far the most common. Should he not have the honor of having the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC? Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 00:48, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
"Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered.... When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others."Wanderone is more than "fairly" common in reliable sources, virtually all of which note the ambiguity of the nickname and unreliability of Wanderone's claims. (I.e. the amiguity and reliability are themselves reliably sourced!)
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ⚞(Ʌⱷ҅̆⚲͜ⱷ^)≼ 19:35, 23 March 2014 (UTC) Reformatted & expanded 14:15, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
I have never heard him referred to as Wanderone, nor have I ever heard "Minnesota Fats" refer to anything else.' – please see WP:IDONTKNOWIT/ WP:IKNOWIT. I understand that you don't seem want to let this go (you launched both the AfD and the original RM, linked to above), but re-re-raising a question like this, in a heated manner, without anything having changed is usually a waste of time at best. I am hoping that moving the fictional character to Minnesota Fats (character) and having Minnesota Fats be a disambiguation page is enough to resolve the issue. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ⚞(Ʌⱷ҅̆⚲͜ⱷ^)≼ 14:15, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Instead they have a vague idea there was a legendary pool person by the name Minnesota Fats and could not tell you if he was real or a fictional character at the time they are typing that title into a search engine or here to find out. When they do so, they are trying to find out just who "Minnesota Fats" was, and as such, the perfect place for them to land is at the existing article at Minnesota Fats, which tells them both about the book, the film, the name squatter, encyclopedically informs them of the dialectic, and for good measure, has a hatnote pointing here. The existing arrangement is perfect, and the sought change appears to put far too much emphasis on the person over the character, probably resulting from some of you not realizing how huge the film [especially] is.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 22:52, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
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The article makes a point of noting "However, there is no published evidence of such a relationship"; whilst I understand what point is being made here (i.e., there's absolutely no support for this save Etta James's own account), what "published evidence" was/ is likely to exist for what was no doubt a (very) short-lived relationship between Wanderone and James's mother? It's not likely any of the people James refers to as "there and ought to know" would happen to have written a book about- or even briefly addressing- the subject, after all. It just seems that, given the article's already extremely circumspect on James's claim, the sentence highlighted above seems out of place, particularly given the circumstances involved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.68.40 ( talk) 02:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
Wanderone, who was sometimes known by the nickname "New York Fats" in his role as a pool player,[4] adopted the nickname "Minnesota Fats" from the character of that name in the 1961 film The Hustler, falsely claiming that the character, played by Jackie Gleason, was based upon him.[4] However, Derek Kirunchyk researched this matter thoroughly by examining the pages of Tevis' original manuscript and discovered for nearly 60 years, ever since the release of The Hustler, that those who follow the sport widely assumed that Wanderone had lied about his own provenance, but Telvis changed the character's nickname from "New York" to "Minnesota" in one of the original manuscript pages, which supports Wanderone's claim that he was, in fact, the Minnesota Fats in the novel.[18]
There is a good probability that the character, played by Jackie Gleason, was, in fact, based on Rudolf Wanderone. It is probable that Tevis is denying that the character is based upon Rudolf Wanderone so they do not have to pay Rudolf Waderone rights to use him for the character. Easeltine ( talk) 15:41, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Rudolf Wanderone has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
This
level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|||
If he hinted at having been born as early as 1900, a New York State Census (1925, behind a paywall) shows a "Rudolf J. Wanderone" aged 12. This is the only person identified as having such a name born in New York State. Some obituaries show him born on 19 January 1900 and some show him born on 19 January 1913. It is highly unlikely that anyone could be 25 and look 12.
Not behind a paywall, he is shown in the US Census as a cashier at a billiard parlor at the age 27 at the Arlington Hotel in Shreveport, Caddo County, Louisiana. [1] Pbrower2a ( talk) 04:23, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
User:Hag2 graciously responded to the article's second request for peer review and did a big copy-editing job on it. I also added some new (sourced) information and an image. Previous issues with how to handle the filmography and bibliography settled (the material was merged back in to the main prose). Aside from various missing material (Wanderone's time in Chicago, what exactly he did to get the BCA Hall of Fame induction, the irony of it given his hatred of the BCA – not even mentioned in the article yet – etc.), this is getting very close to a good Featured Article candidate. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:43, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. This discussion raised of a fictional character and a real-life person of the same occupation named after that character raised a set of complex issues. Good cases were made for and against the proposal, but there is a consensus to reject this particular proposal. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 22:50, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
– WP:NC says "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article." It gives examples such as Lady Gaga, not "Stefani Germanotta". Similarly, you have Kid Rock, not "Robert Ritchie"; Magic Johnson, not "Earvin Johnson"; et cetera. Pop culture knows him almost exclusively as "Minnesota Fats", so to have his article not be at "Minnesota Fats" is preposterous.
Even the New York Times obit has "Minnesota Fats", not "Rudolf Wanderone", in the title. The book used as a reference in the article says "Minnesota Fats", not "Rudolf Wanderone". It's clear that "Minnesota Fats" is by far the most common name ( WP:COMMONNAME) to which he is referred. Anyone looking for "Minnesota Fats" on Wikipedia is almost certainly looking for the pool player, not the fictional character of the same name — "Rudolf Wanderone" has 5323 hits vs. 2462 for "Minnesota Fats", and I would bet anything that most of those 2462 are people looking for Wanderone, not the fictional character.
This move was previously discussed in 2008 with a result of "no consensus". I think WP:COMMONNAME is a valid argument here — he's not the only thing called "Minnesota Fats", nor the first, but he's by far the most common. Should he not have the honor of having the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC? Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 00:48, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
"Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered.... When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others."Wanderone is more than "fairly" common in reliable sources, virtually all of which note the ambiguity of the nickname and unreliability of Wanderone's claims. (I.e. the amiguity and reliability are themselves reliably sourced!)
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ⚞(Ʌⱷ҅̆⚲͜ⱷ^)≼ 19:35, 23 March 2014 (UTC) Reformatted & expanded 14:15, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
I have never heard him referred to as Wanderone, nor have I ever heard "Minnesota Fats" refer to anything else.' – please see WP:IDONTKNOWIT/ WP:IKNOWIT. I understand that you don't seem want to let this go (you launched both the AfD and the original RM, linked to above), but re-re-raising a question like this, in a heated manner, without anything having changed is usually a waste of time at best. I am hoping that moving the fictional character to Minnesota Fats (character) and having Minnesota Fats be a disambiguation page is enough to resolve the issue. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ⚞(Ʌⱷ҅̆⚲͜ⱷ^)≼ 14:15, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Instead they have a vague idea there was a legendary pool person by the name Minnesota Fats and could not tell you if he was real or a fictional character at the time they are typing that title into a search engine or here to find out. When they do so, they are trying to find out just who "Minnesota Fats" was, and as such, the perfect place for them to land is at the existing article at Minnesota Fats, which tells them both about the book, the film, the name squatter, encyclopedically informs them of the dialectic, and for good measure, has a hatnote pointing here. The existing arrangement is perfect, and the sought change appears to put far too much emphasis on the person over the character, probably resulting from some of you not realizing how huge the film [especially] is.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 22:52, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Rudolf Wanderone. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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The article makes a point of noting "However, there is no published evidence of such a relationship"; whilst I understand what point is being made here (i.e., there's absolutely no support for this save Etta James's own account), what "published evidence" was/ is likely to exist for what was no doubt a (very) short-lived relationship between Wanderone and James's mother? It's not likely any of the people James refers to as "there and ought to know" would happen to have written a book about- or even briefly addressing- the subject, after all. It just seems that, given the article's already extremely circumspect on James's claim, the sentence highlighted above seems out of place, particularly given the circumstances involved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.68.40 ( talk) 02:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
Wanderone, who was sometimes known by the nickname "New York Fats" in his role as a pool player,[4] adopted the nickname "Minnesota Fats" from the character of that name in the 1961 film The Hustler, falsely claiming that the character, played by Jackie Gleason, was based upon him.[4] However, Derek Kirunchyk researched this matter thoroughly by examining the pages of Tevis' original manuscript and discovered for nearly 60 years, ever since the release of The Hustler, that those who follow the sport widely assumed that Wanderone had lied about his own provenance, but Telvis changed the character's nickname from "New York" to "Minnesota" in one of the original manuscript pages, which supports Wanderone's claim that he was, in fact, the Minnesota Fats in the novel.[18]
There is a good probability that the character, played by Jackie Gleason, was, in fact, based on Rudolf Wanderone. It is probable that Tevis is denying that the character is based upon Rudolf Wanderone so they do not have to pay Rudolf Waderone rights to use him for the character. Easeltine ( talk) 15:41, 26 May 2021 (UTC)