It is true that there is much speculation about the cause of the fire, but a police report is more conclusive than speculation taking place 80 years later. I have added a second reference for it being an act of arson. hgilbert ( talk) 13:03, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
- ...daß weder Kurzschluß noch maschinelle Leitungsdefekte den Brand verschuldet haben können, ist mit fast ziemlicher Sicherheit anzunehmen daß böswilliger Brandstiftung vorliegt.
It is not, as you suggest, "going on the number of sources that say it was arson and those that say it may have been some other cause" It is not, as you say "up to us to determine the most authoritative source(s) and go with that." That would be Original Research. So unless you can demonstrate why the following are NOT reliable published sources then their report that a contrary view exists to the arson theory must be included: Gary Lachman Ibid pp.204-205; Lindenberg Ibid chapter 46, "Der Brand des Goetheanum" pp. 789-797. René Maikowski, Schicksalswege auf der Suche nach dem lebendigen Geist; Publ. Freiburg 1980, pp.59-65: "Der Brand des Goetheanumsalswege auf der Suche nach dem lebendigen Geist; Publ. Freiburg 1980, pp.59-65: "Der Brand des Goetheanum." Colin Wilson, Rudolf Steiner, the man and his vision: an introduction to the life and ideas of the founder of anthroposophy Publ Aquarian Press 1985 p.153. Indeeed neither EPadmirateur nor Hgilbert have yet to provide one reputable source that has said it was unquestionably proved to be arson. Hgilbert keeps referring to the "police report" described in Lindberg I have now obtained a copy of all of the Police Reports which are reproduced in GA 259 Whilst most of them state that the cause is unknown, only one states that it is thought to be arson (this was the preliminary inspectors report made on the 4th January before the body of Ott was discovered and when Ott was assumed to be the arsonist and thought to have disappeared.) Perhaps Hgilbert could provide the exact Lindenberg reference to check this?? The final Judicial report dated 14 February however is absolutely inconclusive.
Solothurnische u. bernische Nachbarschaft Nachträgliches zum Brande des Dornacher Goetheanums Die gerichtliche Untersuchung - Die Versicherungsfrage -o- Solothurn, 14. Februar. Die Untersuchung der Brandursache des Anthroposophentempels von Dornach ist dem Vernehmen nach noch immer nicht abgeschlossen und wird vermutlich überhaupt nie zu einer vollen Abklärung der teilweise mysteriösen Begleitumstände der Feuersbrunst führen. Die verschiedenen Skelettüberreste, die im Schutt aufgefunden worden sind, werden einer genauen gerichtsmedizinischen Begutachtung unterzogen; desgleichen unterlie
The District Commissioner of Dorneck-Thierstein's Report of 22 January 1923 likewise also states that there is no proof of arson and speaks of "all sorts of rumours swirling around."
See GA259 Appendix 7 Bericht [vom 22. Januar 1923] des Oberamtmanns von Dorneck-Thierstein an die Regierung des Kantons Solothurn betreffend den Brand des Goetheanum in Dornach, welcher am 31. Dezember 1922 um 22 lA U h r stattgefunden hat. Brandobjekt: Grundbuch Nr. 2542. Gebäude Nr. 383. Eigentümer: Verein des Goetheanum in Dornach. Mit dem Glockenschlag, der den Anbruch des neuen Jahres verkündete, schlug ob Dornach eine Riesenflamme zum Himmel empor, einer weiten Umgebung den Untergang des Goetheanum verkündend. In der Nacht vom Sylvester auf Neujahr des Jahres 1922 ist das Goetheanum in Dornach ein Raub der Flammen geworden. Der Unterzeichnete begab sich am 1. Januar 1923 früh auf die Brandstätte, wo von dem ehemals gewaltigen Bauwerk nur der von der Hitze an vielen Stellen geborstene Betonunterbau, erfüllt mit brennenden und rauchenden Holzüberresten, noch zu sehen war. Das Betreten und Absuchen der Gebäudereste war erst nach einigen Tagen möglich. Über die Brandursache schwirrten alle möglichen Gerüchte im Lande herum. In gewissen Kreisen der nähern Umgebung von Dornach machte sich eine ziemlich erregte Stimmung gegen die Mitglieder des Vereins des Goetheanum bemerkbar. Es mag sein, daß hiezu der Umstand nicht wenig beigetragen hatte, daß von Dr. Steiner und seinen Leuten selbst eine Untersuchung geführt und die Bedienung der Presse durchgeführt wurde. In einer der ersten Veröffentlichungen wurde die Behauptung aufgestellt, es liege Brandstiftung von außen vor, was die Gegner Dr. Steiners arg in den Harnisch brachte. Die amtliche Untersuchung, die sofort eingesetzt hatte, stellte folgendes fest: Am 31. Dezember 1922 um 17 Uhr fand im Goetheanum eine eurythmische Vorstellung statt, die kurz vor 7 Uhr zu Ende ging. Nach der Vorstellung wurde, wie gewohnt, das ganze Gebäude von den Besuchern entleert, genau kontrolliert und nirgends etwas Verdächtiges bemerkt. Um 8 Uhr begann ein Vortrag von Dr. Steiner, der gegen 10 Uhr beendigt war. Hierauf wurde wieder das ganze Gebäude entleert, von einem Wächter kontrolliert und abgeschlossen. Im Freien wurde das Gebäude von 5 bis 7 Uhr von einem und von 7 Uhr an von zwei Wächtern bewacht. In der Zeit von 7 bis 8 Uhr hielt sich im großen Saale und in ihrem Zimmer im I. Stock des Südflügels, wie gewohnt, Frau Dr. Steiner auf. Ihr fiel nichts auf. Nach der Vorstellung, ca. um 7 Uhr, kam ein Fräulein Wahler [Waller] in ihr Garderobenzimmer, im I.Stock des Südflügels gelegen, und bemerkte, daß der Spiegel, der einige Zeit vorher noch an der Wand hing, zerbrochen auf dem Boden lag; man maß dieser Beobachtung aber wenig Wert bei. Als nach der Leerung, Kontrollierung und Schließung des Gebäudes zwei Wächter auf ihrem Rundgange sich beim Südportal trafen, war es 10 V* Uhr. In diesem Moment roch der eine Wächter Rauch. Sie fanden im Südflügel im III. Stock im sog. weißen Saal starken Rauch hinter den Heizkörpern hervorkommen. Als auf den Alarm der Weckerlinie die Feuerwehrleute des Goetheanum herbeigeeilt waren und man nach dem Feuer suchte, fand man zunächst überall nur Rauch, aber kein Feuer. Es verging wohl eine V* Stunde, bis man endlich im I. Stock über dem Südportal aus den Fugen in der Westwand Rauch hervorquellen sah. Man schlug diese Wand ein und stieß auf das Feuer. Es ist durch mehrere Augenzeugen die Tatsache festgestellt, daß vorher an keinem andern Orte des Gebäudes Feuer war, so daß angenommen werden muß, daß der Brandausbruch im Innern der Westwand über dem Südportal stattgefunden hat. Laut den vorgelegten Plänen bestand die Wand aus den Konstruktionsteilen und innerer und äußerer Doppelverschalung (siehe Skizze). Im Innern der Wand waren somit Hohlräume vorhanden. Durch diese Hohlräume führte ein Frischluftzufuhrkanal aus Blech, der in einem Fenstersturz seinen Anfang nahm und hinter den Heizkörpern im sog. weißen Saal im III. Stockwerk ausmündete. Daher ist es erklärlich, daß in diesem Räume zuerst Rauch bemerkt wurde. Nachdem diese Wand geöffnet worden war, entwickelte sich das Feuer mit großer Schnelligkeit gegen die Kuppeln hin. Als gegen 22 V* Uhr die Feuerwehren von Dornach und Ariesheim und etwas später diejenige von Münchenstein und die Dampfspritze von Basel beim Brandobjekte erschienen waren, war der Aufenthalt im Innern des Gebäudes fast unmöglich geworden, und man mußte sich auf die Bekämpfung des Feuers von außen beschränken. Um 23 Vi Uhr mußte der allgemeine Rückzug der Feuerwehren angeordnet werden, und um 24 Uhr stürzten die Kuppeln ein. In den folgenden Stunden strömte eine solche Hitze aus dem Brandobjekte, daß die in der Nähe stehende Schreinerei in beständiger Gefahr war, und die Feuerwehren mußten ihre ganze Kraft auf die Rettung dieses Gebäudes konzentrieren, was auch gelang. Die Spritzenprämie ist der Feuerwehr Ariesheim auszurichten. Es ging aus der Einvernahme zahlreicher Personen hervor, daß der Brandherd in der oben näher bezeichneten Westwand im I. Stock des Südflügels anzunehmen ist. Wie ist der Brand entstanden? Mit dieser Frage beschäftigte man sich in den ersten Tagen nach dem Brande allgemein, zeitweise auch sehr vorlaut. Sehr nahe lag die Vermutung, daß Kurzschluß in den elektr. Leitungen die Ursache sein könnte. Diese Frage wurde, wie wir Ihnen in unserm Bericht vom 3.Januar mitteilten, mit Bestimmtheit in negativem Sinne entschieden. Im Verlaufe der weitern Untersuchung wurde bekannt, daß der Uhrenmacher Ott in Ariesheim, der seit kurzer Zeit Mitglied des Vereins des Goetheanums war, vermißt wird. Dieser Umstand und die Aussagen einzelner Mitglieder des Vereins des Goetheanum über Warnungen, die Ott geäußert hat, ferner die Feststellung, daß das Feuer im Hohlraum der bezeichneten Wand, wo aber keine elektr. Leitung durchführte, ausgebrochen sein muß, sowie die Tatsache, daß an der Außenseite des Baues in der Nähe des Südportals ein Gerüst stand, mittelst welchem der Ort des Brandausbruches mit Leichtigkeit zu erreichen war, führte zur Vermutung, daß Brandstiftung vorliegen könnte. Spuren einer Brandlegung waren nicht festzustellen, da die mehrfach bezeichnete Wand bis auf den Grund niedergebrannt ist. Der einzige Zugang aus dem Innern des Gebäudes zu den oben bezeichneten Räumen im I. Stock über dem Südportal soll beständig bewacht gewesen sein und der Zutritt nur den Mitgliedern der Gesellschaft gestattet gewesen sein. Die oben erwähnte Spiegelgeschichte könnte mit der Brandstiftung insofern in Beziehung gebracht werden, daß man sich vorstellen könnte, ein durch das wahrscheinlich nicht geschlossene Fenster im Zimmer der Frl. Wahler [Waller] (Eckzimmer im 1. Stock) eingestiegenes Individuum hätte in der Geschwindigkeit den Spiegel heruntergeworfen. Es müßte dies während der Vorstellung vom 31. Dezember von 5 bis 7 Uhr nachm. gewesen sein. Ob Ott der Täter ist? Über diese Zeit ist nämlich sein Alibi nicht einwandfrei festgestellt. Gemäß §64 des Gesetzes betreffend die Gebäude-Brandversicherung veranlaßte der Unterzeichnete am 3. Januar das Einschreiten des Gerichtspräsidenten, der seither die Untersuchung weiterführt. Die weitern Zeugeneinvernahmen haben ergeben, daß Ott vor dem Zusammenbruch der Kuppeln im Kuppelzwischenraum gesehen wurde. Anläßlich der unter Aufsicht der Polizei systematisch durchgeführten Räumungsarbeiten fand man in der Gegend der Bühne die Überreste eines menschlichen Skeletts, und einige Tage später wurde in der Schreinerei auch der Mantel, den Ott am Sylvester getragen hatte, aufgefunden. In Anbetracht, daß sonst niemand vermißt wird, ist es sehr wahrscheinlich, daß Ott beim Brande des Goetheanum umgekommen ist. Die Untersuchung durch den Gerichtspräsidenten ist heute noch nicht abgeschlossen. Am 4. Januar fand durch die lt. Regierungsratsbeschluß Nr. 29 vom 2. Januar 1923 gewählte außerordentliche Kommission die Abschätzung des Schadens statt. Das eingeäscherte Gebäude war für Fr. 3'500>000.- brandversichert. Die Überreste wurden auf Fr. 317'000- gewertet, so daß der Schaden Fr. 3'183'000- beträgt. Gegen diese Abschätzung wurde vom Eigentümer, der Verein des Goetheanum, innert nützlicher Frist (abgelaufen den 19. Januar) keine Einsprache erhoben.
Breitenbach, den 22. Januar 1923. Für das Oberamt Dorneck-Thierstein Der Oberamtmann: gez. Haberthür
Even Steiner said he only "assumes" it was arson (it must be so, he says since the fire originated from outside the wall of the Goetheanum) But this is an error - he later corrects this to say that it was actually started inside a double walled inner wall in by the South portal of the White Room - as the investigator's report concludes.
Having firstly accused the Catholics and the Freemasons (pointing to a prediction by the astrologer Elsbeth Ebertin) Shortly thereafter Steiner says that Ott is the culprit - he concludes this on the basis that Ott had disappeared also because Ott has money problems and because Ott was behaving suspiciously. Indeed Steiner says (the same day in an interview with National-Zeitung see GA259) that Ott is probably over the border by now and that it is impossible that any body could now be found in the ashes. Of course Ott's body was found shortly thereafter having fallen through the collapsed floor. Later eye witnesses (reported in Maikowski) claim that Ott had been one of the most fervent of the firefighters so that blows up the whole Ott theory.
1.) I am not familiar with any lecture in GA274 or GA259 that claims to have found straw or kerosene. A 'cooking apparatus' which was used by the Eurythmists for making tea was found on 7 January (in the room where they changed which was close to the source of the fire.) There was talk of a mirror which was found toppled and broken: Steiner says this broken mirror was evidence of arson - that someone climbed a ladder on the outside of the Goetheanum and punched a hole in the outer wall (at about 6 in the evening when the fire is said to have started and whilst Steiner is lecturing inside!!!) Steiner says this explains the toppled mirror. Steiner does change from "assuming arson" in January 1923 to May 1924 in a Paris lecture when he says it was "definitely arson" - but this seems to be unproven and speculative.
2.) Yes I agree that Steiner says several times in interviews in the immediate days after the fire, that it could not have been a short-circuit fault. He claims to be able to 'prove' this because all the lights were on. He also says 'experts' checked the heating mechanics and found no fault. He also claims the electrical cables were in steel conduits and fire proof. These assertions are repeated in at least one of the police reports.
But Steiner's position is clearly stated in my edit which says:
The Goetheanum was destroyed by fire on New Year's Eve 1922/23. Because of the level of hostility against him, Steiner assumed arson and this was stated in a police report. In his first lecture on January 1, 1923, the day after the fire (GA 259) Steiner pointed directly to "two main sources of irreconcilable animosity against the Goetheanum": the Roman Catholic Association in Dornach and the Freemasons.
Neither EPadmirateur nor Hgilbert have yet to articulate why the equally justifiable position described by 4 commentators should not be stated. Masteryorlando ( talk) 09:22, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Nowhere does that report come close to saying "probably arson" Im Verlaufe der weitern Untersuchung wurde bekannt, daß der Uhrenmacher Ott in Ariesheim, der seit kurzer Zeit Mitglied des Vereins des Goetheanums war, vermißt wird. Dieser Umstand und die Aussagen einzelner Mitglieder des Vereins des Goetheanum über Warnungen, die Ott geäußert hat, ferner die Feststellung, daß das Feuer im Hohlraum der bezeichneten Wand, wo aber keine elektr leitung durchführte, ausgebrochen sein muß, sowie die Tatsache, daß an der Außenseite des Baues in der Nähe des Südportals ein Gerüst stand, mittelst welchem der Ort des Brandausbruches mit Leichtigkeit zu erreichen war, führte zur Vermutung, daß Brandstiftung vorliegen könnte. Spuren einer Brandlegung waren nicht festzustellen, da die mehrfach bezeichnete Wand bis auf den Grund niedergebrannt ist.
Sehr nahe lag die Vermutung, daß Kurzschluß in den elektr. It then goes on to discount reports of an electrical fault saying that the Goetheanum Association said there were no electrical cables in the area and for that reason this has been excluded... Diese Frage wurde, wie wir Ihnen in unserm Bericht vom 3.Januar mitteilten, mit Bestimmtheit in negativem In saying it is "probably arson" you also entirely exclude the 14 February report which says: Die Untersuchung der Brandursache des Anthroposophentempels von Dornach ist dem Vernehmen nach noch immer nicht abgeschlossen und wird vermutlich überhaupt nie zu einer vollen Abklärung der teilweise mysteriösen Begleitumstände der Feuersbrunst führen.
(a) inaccurate (see above) and (b) concluding that because no other alternative is proven it must "probaby be arson" would constitute original research and synthesis. The Commissioner's report makes no such conclusion.
Über die Brandursache schwirrten alle möglichen Gerüchte im Lande herum. In gewissen Kreisen der nähern Umgebung von Dornach machte sich eine ziemlich erregte Stimmung gegen die Mitglieder des Vereins des Goetheanum bemerkbar. Es mag sein, daß hiezu der Umstand nicht wenig beigetragen hatte, daß von Dr. Steiner und seinen Leuten selbst eine Untersuchung geführt und die Bedienung der Presse durchgeführt wurde. In einer der ersten Veröffentlichungen wurde die Behauptung aufgestellt, es liege Brandstiftung von außen vor, was die Gegner Dr. Steiners arg in den Harnisch brachte.
Der Uhrenmacher Ott in Ariesheim, ... vermißt wird. Dieser Umstand und die Aussagen einzelner Mitglieder des Vereins des Goetheanum über Warnungen, die Ott geäußert hat, ferner die Feststellung, daß das Feuer im Hohlraum der bezeichneten Wand, wo aber keine elektr. Leitung durchführte, ausgebrochen sein muß, sowie die Tatsache, daß an der Außenseite des Baues in der Nähe des Südportals ein Gerüst stand, mittelst welchem der Ort des Brandausbruches mit Leichtigkeit zu erreichen war, führte zur Vermutung, daß Brandstiftung vorliegen könnte. Spuren einer Brandlegung waren nicht festzustellen, da die mehrfach bezeichnete Wand bis auf den Grund niedergebrannt ist.
The report makes no such conclusion that you have asserted that it was "probably arson". Masteryorlando ( talk) 20:30, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Given this information, the conclusion of the police report is probably the only authoritative source here. I think that source document is contained in GA259, p. 787 (I don't have the full text, probably you have it) but in part it states:
- ...daß weder Kurzschluß noch maschinelle Leitungsdefekte den Brand verschuldet haben können, ist mit fast ziemlicher Sicherheit anzunehmen daß böswilliger Brandstiftung vorliegt.
- which translates roughly to "that neither a short-circuit fault nor mechanical line (conduit?) defects could have caused the fire, it accepted with near certainty that malicious arson occurred."
- Given this excerpt, I believe the police report concluded "with near certainty" that arson had happened and they ruled out electrical short circuits and other possible causes. Therefore I think that the reference should change to the GA 259 and the clear statement that it was arson should be retained. If you can provide authoritative quotes from these sources that contradicts this, then let's see them here on the talk page.
- Nach Ausschaltung dieser Möglichkeit und nachdem alle Anzeichen darauf hinweisen, daß Ott geflüchtet ist, und zwar, wie es heißt, über die Grenze, war es gegeben, Ott, dessen Verschwinden höchst merkwürdig ist, nachzuforschen und ihn zu verfolgen, da die bis jetzt einvernommenen Zeugen schwerwiegende Verdachtsgründe gegen ihn eröffnet haben, während nach anderen Richtungen hin absolut kein Verdacht vorliegt.
- Nachdem durch Zeugen und Expertisen unzweideutig festgestellt worden ist, daß weder Kurzschluß noch maschinelle Leitungsdefekte den Brand verschuldet haben können, Ist mit fast ziemlicher Sicherheit anzunehmen, daß vorliegt.
- Böswillige Brandstiftung
- Auch die amtliche Untersuchung scheint nun zu dieser von Dr. Steiner bereits am Brandtag behaupteten Annahme gekommen zu sein. Nach ihm, der sich doch wohl in der Konstruktion des Baues am besten auskennen wird, muß der Brand in der Zeit von 5-7 Uhr abends gelegt worden sein.
The police inspector then closes the letter (p.752/753) saying that members of the Anthroposophical Society are frightened for their lives. The Inspector says, however, that there is absolutely no evidence that anyone has planned violence against them and that "Pogroms in the Swiss countryside are not common practice." That letter in GA259 follows the preliminary police report issued the previous day (3 Jan) (p.750 of GA259) That report repeats that the Goetheanum's engineer and electricians have said it cannot be an electrical fault, that "the Anthroposophic society view is that Ott is the culprit" and that "the Anthroposophic society" say that Ott "was the tool of a certain group." It says "since in interrogrations many witnesses suspected arson" ("Einvernahme der Zeugen starke Verdachtsmomente fur Brandstiftung vorliegen",) the coroner has forwarded the files for investigation.
TRANS: Expert witnesses have established with near certainty that it was not a short circuit or fault in the wiring. Then there is a headline
Here is the rest: I suggest that you reformat and clean up the text you have entered (here and elsewhere on this page). I'm tired of cleaning up your comments after you. Then we can discuss your points. If you want to be taken seriously, you'll have to do a little extra work. Again, I strongly suggest getting a mentor. Sorry to be so blunt, EPadmirateur ( talk) 06:07, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
The lead should be concise and give a survey of the subject; see WP:Lead section. Could I suggest that changes are proposed and agree on before being introduced? hgilbert ( talk) 22:54, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Yes I agree - the German section or "branch" was a "branch" of London. I said this: "Steiner went on to become President of its German Branch in 1902 and Arch Warden of its Esoteric School" (I do however disagree that the German section was "completely independent." Since it was a branch of London it was NOT independent. Just look at the terms of the Theosophical Society charters...) Re comment "[this] is covered in the text." We are discussing the fact that the lead summary reduces Steiner's 12 year involvement as President of the German branch of the TS and Arch Warden of its Esoteric School to merely a "link to Theosophy". This is absurdly reductionist to the point that it is in my view plain and simple dishonesty. Equally the lead ignores the fact (crucial to understanding Steiners life) that Steiner was intitially opposed to Theosophy (see his 1897 article http://www.philosophyoffreedom.com/node/4236 . Equally the lead ignores the absolutely crucial fact (as he acknowledged) that Steiner's initiation was as a Rosicrucian. "A survey of the subject" required by Wikipedia for the lead to this biography cannot, in my view, omit these facts without displaying very very significant bias. Wikipedia requires the lead to "summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies" although Steiner is one of the most controversial figures this lead is entirely sanitized of that and entirely biased in consequence. To rectify these crucial ommissions I suggest:
Although he had been initially opposed to the Theosophical Society in Vienna in the late 1880's, Steiner went on to become President of its German Section from 1902 to 1913 and Arch Warden of its Esoteric School.From within the Theosophical Society, Steiner developed, out of his Rosicrucian initiation, a comprehensive step-by-step path to gnosis. He called this esoteric and occult spiritual philosophy Anthroposophy Although he claimed he had never been a member, Steiner was expelled from the Theosophical Society in 1913 for a breach of its Constitution. He went on to assist in the formation of the Anthroposophical Society founded by his wife in 1913 as well as an Esoteric Occult School of Spiritual Science. Following schisms within the movement, Steiner refounded the General Anthroposophical Society over Christmas 1923 describing it at that time as "a service of the gods, a divine service".
Obviously each of these 9 facts will be backed by reliable reference
1, Opposed to Thesophy - his Magazin fur Literatur article on Theosophy 2, president of it German Section and Arch warden - the usual biographers already cited 3, Rosicrucian initiation: Schure,Barr document, Marie Steiner, Prokofieff, Rudolf Steiner Autobiography "Rosicrucian directive "to bring spirit into the world" http://books.google.com/books?id=bWXSwDrPNNAC&pg=PR23&dq=schure+steiner+rosicrucian&hl=en&ei=zilLTaXnJ4O88gafnInvDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=schure%20steiner%20rosicrucian&f=false 4, Step by Step path to gnosis - Steiner, GAS Principles. 5, esoteric and occult - Steiner, Constitution of School of Spirtual Science, History of School of Spiritual Science, Steiner assertion to Besant 6. claim of non-membership - usual biographies (already included) 7. Expulsion from TS for breach of consitutuion - refusing membership to members of OSIE - TS contemporary documents 8. Founding of AS - usual biographies 9. Refounding of GAS - usual biographies Prokofieff and Steiner Books publications on Christmas Conference
If you would like to debate why any of these facts are not crucial to a survey of Steiner's life I would be happy to consider argument. It is however becoming increasingly clear that there is very signicant Anthroposphical Society inspired bias at work here and that your edits are in support of that bias intending to present a distorted 'sanitized' version of Steiner as a secular and uncontroversial academic rather than a more neutral description of his life. May I point to: The Arbitration Committee has placed this article on probation. Editors of this are expected to remove all original research and other unverifiable information, including all controversial information sourced in Anthroposophy related publications. It is anticipated that this process may result in deletion or merger of some articles due to failure of verification by third party peer reviewed sources. If it is found, upon review by the Arbitration Committee, that any of the principals in this arbitration continue to edit in an inappropriate and disruptive way editing restrictions may be imposed. Review may be at the initiative of any member of the Arbitration Committee on their own motion or upon petition by any user to them. For further information see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Waldorf education. For the arbitration committee, Thatcher131 23:53 Masteryorlando ( talk) 22:38, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the quote in the lead supposedly referenced as Robert A. McDermott, "Philosophy and Evolution of Consciousness", in James Ogilvy, Revisioning Philosophy, pp. 279-280 Not only is this reference inadmissable under the terms of the arbitration since Mcdermott is part of the Anthroposophical movement - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._McDermott where he is described as "co-founder of The Owen Barfield Graduate School of Sunbridge College" but more crucially the quote bears no relation to the Mcdermott passage referenced. In the lead Mcdermott supposedly says: "His philosophical work of these years, which he termed spiritual science, sought to provide a connection between the cognitive path of Western philosophy and the inner and spiritual needs of the human being." Not only does Macdermott say absolutely no such thing in the reference but instead the nearest I can find is that Macdermott actually says : "I [Robert McDermott, the author] have come to be convinced of the need for this approach to philosophy - of transforming philosophy into Spiritual Science" Mcdermott then goes on to explain Spiritual Science in the footnote quoting Steiner "Steiner writes 'There slumber in every human being faculties by means of which he (or she) can acquire for himself a knowledge of higher worlds. Mystics, Gnostics, Theosophists - all speak of a world of soul and spirit which for them is just as real as the world we see with our physical eyes and touch with our physical hands.' To therefore paraphrase Mcdermott as saying that Steiner "sought to provide a connection between the cognitive path of Western philosophy and the inner and spiritual needs of the human being" is to distort both Steiner and Mcdermott completely. Masteryorlando ( talk) 22:32, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=7VuiPwuFznEC&lpg=PA207&ots=JPHf_GQqd3&dq=buddha%20crucified%20mars&pg=PA207#v=onepage&q&f=false http://www.rudolfsteinerweb.com/Rudolf_Steiner_and_Science.php http://books.google.com/books?id=7_WwVFntyFwC&lpg=PP1&ots=xha2EhYtx_&dq=guenon%20theosophy&pg=PA194#v=onepage&q=guenon%20theosophy&f=false
It appears that some of the comments/commentary have gotten removed from the talk page, without being archived. Please be careful. The removal or refactoring of the comments of others is highly discouraged. And as a way to keep conversation going, if one wishes to remove something said either use strike out, or mark that you removed something (comment refactored or similar type note). It helps to keep the discussion orderly, so others can follow it and add to it in a way that makes sense. -- Rocksanddirt ( talk) 18:15, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
This article is supposed to be a short biography, of the sort you find in an encyclopedia. A book lenghth one is beyond our scope. All the various things and various thoughts that Steiner got involved with do not need to be described in depth. There are lots of articles on en.wikipedia about them (waldorf education, biodynamic farming, etc), this article doesn't need any details, just a link to the already existing articles. -- Rocksanddirt ( talk) 18:26, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
It seems like overkill to mention every aspect of Steiner's work twice in the lead. It seems sensible to call him a philosopher, social thinker, and esotericist, and perhaps an architect (given the public exposure and critical appreciation of the buildings he shaped) - but should he really be identified as a poet, except in the sense that everyone who writes verse is a poet? I suggest that we identify people with their primary accomplishments - I would not call myself an explorer, even though I have explored a few places, or a woodsman, though I've cut down many a tree. In any case, the next paragraph details more of his accomplishments aside from his primary identity. hgilbert ( talk) 14:18, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
I have mentioned this before but the Swiss website astro.com has Steiner's correct date of birth, why are we still showing 2 dates? http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Steiner%2C_Rudolf Veryscarymary ( talk) 18:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
I've been a little Bold and swapped two sections; most people probably are more interested in the practical side than the philosophical, so I've put them in this order. In addition, the philosophy leads over more smoothly into the following sections of the article. If someone objects, we can swap it back, however. hgilbert ( talk) 17:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
An arbitration proceeding about this article ruled that direct quotes from Steiner - in fact, anthroposophic sources generally - could only be used in regard to noncontroversial themes. It doesn't help that the quotes were sourced to the website of a user who has been specifically banned from editing this article, rather than to a Verifiable source. Incidentally, when Steiner founded the Anthroposophic Society in 1913 two of the three people he chose to lead it happened to be Jewish (Adolf Arenson and Carl Unger...the third of the group was Steiner's wife, Maria Steiner-von Sivers). hgilbert ( talk) 00:03, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
There are two sections about Steiner's impulse toward social reform. One is part of the biography section (Social reform) and the other part of the "Breadth of activity" section. A general introduction to Steiner's thought seems clearly to belong in the latter; biographical material in the former. Recent edits have confused this distinction. One result is that there's repetition of the same ideas in the two sections. I'd like to sort this out. hgilbert ( talk) 00:15, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
The volume by Villeneuve, Rudolf Steiner: The British Connection, is half hagiography, half speculation. I'm not sure I'd include this in the bibliography; what are the reasons for doing so? hgilbert ( talk) 23:36, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
First, Villeneuve's volume is in the section headed 'Further reading' which does not purport to be listing books in the customary sense of sources used in the article (or other work) to which it is appended. It contains its own select bibliography in that sense.
Second, it is not properly characterised as hagiography. It is thoroughly documented, indeed mostly quotation of primary sources, which have evidently been carefully checked and compared. (For example, note 21 'The historical lack of interest in Britain for researches into colour of a kind which contest Newtonian doctrine was made strikingly clear to the present writer in 2010 when consulting in the Bodleian library in Oxford University its copy of Dr Joseph Reade's book quoted by Goethe in this passage, "Experimental Outlines for a new theory of colours, light and vision, with critical remarks on Sir Isaac Newton's opinions (1816). Its pages were still uncut.' (See also the writer's Preface, p.2, para. beginning 'In this regard...')
It contains much information about the subject, Rudolf Steiner, not otherwise available easily (or at all), including letters of Steiner translated into English, and Steiner on Goethe, and is at least as informative and useful as other books in the list for "further reading" to expand, supplement and complement what the article purports to be about.
Third, to the extent that there is some speculation (which would not be well suited to an encyclopaedia article), it is very obvious, can readily be distinguished and does not detract from the primary and informative matter.
The work makes good the writer's claim in the Preface to open up the larger topic of Steiner's relation to natural science as a whole 'highlighting the polarity and tension -- ultimately for Steiner a creative one -- between on the one hand the Goethean view of science arising from Middle Europe and on the other those different scientific attitudes emanating from Western Europe which may gnerally be described as Baconian'. Qexigator ( talk) 08:40, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Seems that a good majority of quoted references are an alias for you? Is this correct??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.78.84.237 ( talk) 05:23, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
There were several errors in the wording and actual URL references to documents at the Rudolf Steiner Archive. I have made the corrections to eliminate several redirections of links, and to clarify what exactly is at the Archive. The elibrarian ( talk) 17:45, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
This link: Rudolf Steiner at Fine Arts Presentations features the artworks of the good Doctor, as well as a directory for Portraits and for the Goetheanum. I will be adding a new directory for his Blackboard Drawings. Does the community believe these additional links in the External Links section would enhance this document? The elibrarian ( talk) 17:55, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
As edited by Hgilbert at 12:11, 15 August 2012. This revision to Qexigator's fails adequately to balance or compare the unsourced assertion that Steiner considered PoF to be "his most important work". In the Preface to ToK, dated Nov. 1923, Steiner's own words (O.D.Wannamaker's trans.) were "Now that I again turn my attention to [ToK], it seems to me to be also the foundation and justification, as a theory of knowledge, for all that I have asserted since [sc. up to Nov. 1923]." In the next sentence he states in a few words exactly what he means (not some other party's paraphrase): "It speaks of an essential nature of knowledge which opens the way from the sense world to a world of spirit." It may be that at the same time (or later) Steiner said in truth that he considered PoF to be "his most important work", but surely the ordinary reader relying on Wikipedia for information deserves a better presentation of these two assertions than Hgilbert's revision. Qexigator ( talk) 13:35, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your response. Yes, the two works are closely related, but Steiner took more care than most to say what he meant about each, in ways that may be lost on some readers, perhaps due to translation or the reader's/ hearer's pov, or lack of attentiveness. For instance, those who know of S.O.Prokofieff's reputation and work will be able to judge for themselves how far to rely on it. More to the point, does he or anyone else source this particular assertion about PoF to Steiner himself: when and where? (I have seen his book but do not have it to hand so cannot check what appears on p.460 of the work cited.)
I do not propose to tinker further with this, but to my mind your revision-
is still not sufficient to repair destroying the import of my earlier edit, and its place in the text-
If I could I would have checked the 1923 Preface with the German from which the translation was made. I remain of the view that paraphrasing risks misrepresenting an author who himself has made a habit of using his own words with care, and too often loses the very point which the author was actually making. Qexigator ( talk) 22:07, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Further to above, I now see the following printed on the unnumbered page after the Contents page of Anhroposophy and the Philosophy of Freedom by S.O.Prokofieff (trans. fom German, 2009)-
These have been widely disseminated for years, as has the 1923 edition of ToK. It is easy to see he speaks/ writes of PoF otherwise than he does of ToK. Qexigator ( talk) 23:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
For those more closely concerned with the circumstances of the republication, the author's Preface was dated November 1923 in both the first edition which appeared in December 1923 and in the second and final edition which was corrected and seen through the press by the author and published in 1924. The English translation by O.D.Wanamaker was from the second 1924 edition.
The revision of 19:06, 15 August retains the assertion that in ToK Steiner set forth the foundation and justification for much of his later work, in contradiction to Steiner's 1923 Preface, and remains without supporting citation or other explanation. The English translation unequivocally states "all" not "much". Qexigator ( talk) 18:50, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
The text now shows the distinction between ToK and PoF:
This both avoids misinforming the more casual reader and lets the more attentive reader recognise the relationship of these two works from their author's own point of view. Qexigator ( talk) 09:28, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
If you look at the Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Waldorf_education#Remedies section, the explicit point is
When this was discussed with User:Fred_Bauder it was clarified that all quotations from Rudolf Steiner lectures and books should be omitted. The rationale was stated in the Findings of Fact:
I see two issues over the inclusion of a citation to Steiner's works over gnomes:
Nonetheless, referencing a non-anthroposophical work on the subject published by a reliable source would provide a considerably more solid basis for inclusion in a balanced way. hgilbert ( talk) 02:46, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
A recent edit to this section removed cited material and replaced it with uncited material. I have tried to merge the best of both worlds. What is left of the new material is "The concept of the Christ through Anthroposophy requires continual self-transformation, knowledge and a sense of devotion. It encompasses a wide range of understanding of all religions and includes the course of human development within this understanding." I'm not sure how this fits into this section. Any thoughts? hgilbert ( talk) 01:20, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
The source cited states that the loss of the Goetheanum affected Steiner's health. What justifies removing text cited to a RS? hgilbert ( talk) 03:48, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
This article appears to whitewash, no pun intended, the racist beliefs of Steiner as if they were a mere product of his time. Why not include some actual quotes from Steiner concerning race:
“On one side we find the black race, which is earthly at most. If it moves to the West, it becomes extinct. We also have the yellow race, which is in the middle between earth and the cosmos. If it moves to the East, it becomes brown, attaches itself too much to the cosmos, and becomes extinct. The white race is the future, the race that is spiritually creative.”
“The Jews have a great gift for materialism, but little for recognition of the spiritual world.”
“Negroes” are “decadent" and “completely cut themselves off from the spiritual world”
“[I]f we give these Negro novels to pregnant [white] women to read, then it won’t even be necessary for Negroes to come to Europe in order for mulattos to appear. Simply through the spiritual effects of reading Negro novels, a multitude of children will be born in Europe that are completely gray, that have mulatto hair, that look like mulattos!”
"Today's red and black races descend from abnormal humans and have not participated in the evolution led by whites"
“If you look at pictures of the old American Indians the process of ossification is evident in the decline of this race ... [A] representative of these old American Indians still preserves a memory of that great Atlantean civilization [i.e., the civilization of Atlantis] which could not adapt itself to later evolution ... The Atlantean had not assimilated all that the Venus, Mercury, Mars and Jupiter Spirits [i.e., gods] brought about in the East, to whom we owe all the civilizations which reached their zenith in Europe ... The descendant of the brown race did not participate in this development.”
https://sites.google.com/site/waldorfwatch/steiners-racism
Smiloid ( talk) 09:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
If there aren't sources acceptable by the terms of the arbitration proceeding, I suggest removing the tag from this section. hgilbert ( talk) 21:29, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
It is factually correct that Steiner was racist by definition of the word, a belief that some races are superior to others.
See definitions of racism http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism
Smiloid ( talk) 10:52, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
This category has just been added, but there is no material in the text to support it. hgilbert ( talk) 13:41, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categorization#Articles says: Categorization must also maintain a neutral point of view. Categorizations appear on article pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial; if the category's topic is likely to spark controversy, then a list article (which can be annotated and referenced) is probably more appropriate.
A central concept used in categorising articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define[1] the subject as having—such as nationality or notable profession (in the case of people), type of location or region (in the case of places), etc. For example, here: "Caravaggio, an Italian artist of the Baroque movement ...", Italian, artist, and Baroque may all be considered to be defining characteristics of the subject Caravaggio. A category embodies one or more defining characteristic—how this is achieved in practice is described in the following sections.
Reliable sources do not commonly and consistently define Steiner as anything like a pseudoscientist. They often mention this question as a controversial, but the above clearly states that categories should generally be uncontroversial. Please explain how this categorization satisfies the above standard. hgilbert ( talk) 23:49, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
It applies both ways? I don't think so. There is noone here who's job is contingent on the rejection Steiner's teachings. I think Tgeorgescu has demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt that Steiner's work as regards to science is pseudoscientific. IRWolfie- ( talk) 12:47, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
And thus these sources should be cited in the article, as we all agree.
Wikipedia's categories are not meant to assert an opinion about a topic, however, even if this opinion can be sourced to a number of reliable sources, but rather to refer to "essential—defining—characteristics of a topic" as WP:Categorization repeatedly emphasizes. As can be seen by browsing any standard biographical source (see here for some of these), no such source considers "pseudoscience" to be even relevant or important, much less an essential or defining aspect of who Steiner was. hgilbert ( talk) 17:08, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
This issue was taken to the RSN ( permanent link) and after extensive discussion, primarily between the disputants, but including comments from 4-5 neutral editors, when asked for a summary conclusion, noticeboard participants responded with the following: hgilbert ( talk) 11:44, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Precisely, and Britannica's characterization of all three of these figures is exemplary. Feel free to quote Britannica's article on any of these figures in a Wikipedia article. HGilbert ( talk) 22:48, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
"The heart is not a pump: A refutation of the pressure propulsion premise of heart function," Frontier Perspectives, Fall/Winter, 1995;5(1):15-24 (Frontier Perspectives is published by The Center For Frontier Sciences at Temple University in Philadelphia. It is an "anything goes" forum for crank science. A paper by a group of Steiner disciples. The lead author is listed as being from the Rudolph Steiner Research Center at Royal Oak, Michigan. Others are from various medical schools. This paper seems to be crank science based upon the fact that "in 1920, Steiner, of the Goetheanum in Switzerland had pointed out in lectures to medical doctors that the heart was not a pump...but that the blood was propelled with its own biological momentum.")
— William T. Jarvis, Ph.D., Anthroposophical Medicine
The level of detail should be appropriate for a fourth level subsection of a very large article. Do we really need to know where ensembles still perform these dramas? That's probably something that should be reserved for a sub-article. HGilbert ( talk) 01:54, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
The following have been removed from the Infobox and would have to be referenced in the article to be restored: HGilbert ( talk) 16:14, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Eduard von Hartmann, Max Stirner,
Hugo Bergmann, Alan Chadwick, Rudolf Hauschka, Bernard Lievegoed, Karl König, Brian Goodwin, Henri Bortoft
What is there in the article to support the qualifier "cultural"? The link goes to a one liner which does little more than cite a work published in 2005, with a blurb to the effect that its author, Morton White, has gone beyond Quine's dictum that philosophy of science is philosophy enough, and is proposing that it should contain the word "culture" in place of "science." Thus, it is untrue to state that Steiner "gained initial recognition as a ... cultural philosopher", a term that was not current at the time, and has not come into general currency today. Qexigator ( talk) 17:04, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Given that the word "spiritual" is in the article, should it be made clearer whether this is being used in one or more of its particular meanings? Or should it be left open to readers to make their own guesses or inferences? Editors may be aware that Anthroposophy is mentioned in the "Contemporary spirituality" section of the Spirituality article, and is one of its "See also"s. Spiritual (disambig) links to Wiktionary "spiritual", which offers the following: [12]
There is an inline link to Anthroposophy in the "Metaphysical and metaphorical uses" section of Spirit, but no mention at Spirit world (Spiritualism). --17:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC) correction Qexigator ( talk) 20:14, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
The link, both verbally in the text and to the Wikipedia article, appears to be circular and lacking an external source, and unless supported is due for removal. Steiner discussed Dilthey at some length in The Riddles of Philosophy. His account of Dilthey's writings (as of others discussed in the same work) is respectful but critical and suggests, not that Steiner was "influenced" by Dilthey, but that there was some partial but distinctly limited concurrence of Dilthey's philosophy with Steiner's. Steiner comments on Dilthey and Eucken that their mode of conception leads to "no means of cognition that could guide the soul or the self-conscious ego beyond what can be experienced in connection with the body". Dilthey's works among others are listed in the Introduction to Steiner's Truth and Science (the doctoral dissertation) as "concerned with the theory of cognition in general". [13] If mention of Dilthey is to be retained, let it be for his advocacy of the term Geisteswissenschaft (literally, "spiritual science") by pointing out that other terms such as "social science" and "cultural sciences" are equally one-sided and that the human spirit is the central phenomenon from which all others are derived and analyzable (per his article). Qexigator ( talk) 19:10, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
The "breadth of activity" section addresses practical initiatives that were established. Steiner lectured on many themes, including astronomy, but talking about something is different than doing something about it. I suggest that the "Astronomy" sub-section be removed from this location. (I doubt it should be placed anywhere, except perhaps in a sub-article that could be a list of every theme he ever spoke about. Astronomy simply does not stand out from countless other themes he addressed.) HGilbert ( talk) 16:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
What is there in the article to support the qualifier "esoteric"? The disciplined practice of meditational techniques, or mental exercises, is not necessarily "esoteric". Steiner wrote and spoke on many topics including esotericism, founded and led an esoteric school and when founding the Anthroposophical Society in 1923, let it be known that its founding "vorstand" had an esoteric character. In his work The Riddles of Philosophy Presented in an Outline of Its History published in 1914, Steiner mentioned that his earlier work The Philosophy of Freedom (1894) was intended to give the philosophical foundations for what had been outlined in his yet earlier work, based on his doctoral dissertation, Truth and Science (1892). In Riddles [14] Steiner explicitly made clear that what he was proposing was "a continuation of the scientific way of thinking provided it is inwardly experienced in the right way". At no later time did he repudiate the content of the works here mentioned for the sake of "esotericism" or otherwise. Qexigator ( talk) 17:08, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Any doubt whether Steiner was a philosopher and as such primarily concerned with the traditional and fundamental questions of philosophers, from earliest times to the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, about epistemology and ethics, can be resolved by attention to his Preface to the 1923 editionof The Riddles of Philosophy Presented in an Outline of Its History, as well as by reference to the last editions of his other philosophical writings published in his lifetime. Qexigator ( talk) 07:08, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Agreed, the now current ("simpler") version [15] suffices in this opening paragraph and sits well there, while more about that is given later. Qexigator ( talk) 06:01, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Please note: the question is about clarity in the use of the English language, particularly in the context of the article. Steiner was a philosopher, whether or not there is a box with the name "esoteric philosophy" for something else. Hanegraaff's "Dictionary of Gnosis & Western Esotericism" is not about philosophers in the usual and traditional sense which includes Spinoza, Hegel, Fichte, von Hartmann, Brentano, Husserl and others of that sort with whom Steiner's name as philosopher is connected. Qexigator ( talk) 22:55, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
1. Occult Physiology. One of the key elements of Steiner’s anthroposophy is a spiritual or occult [→ occult/occultism] physiology of man.
— Dictionary of Gnosis & Western Esotericism, p. 82
The question is, first, about the use of the term "esoteric philosophy" in plain English for the information of the ordinary reader, and in the context it has been given in the article, whether or not there may be some who would, mistakenly (as explained above), infer that Steiner was not a philosopher, but was an "esoteric philosopher" according to a work by a professor in a university in the Netherlands (quoted above). Secondly, the question is about sources, with relevance to notable philosophers such as those discussed by Steiner in his work "The Riddles of Philosophy" first published in 1914, later with the author's prefaces of 1918 and 1923. Qexigator ( talk) 07:08, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
In 1918, long after Steiner changed his philosophical for his esoteric career, Steiner issued a second edition of this work, which substantially differed from the original one.
— Cees Leijenhorst, Dictionary of Gnosis & Western Esotericism, p. 1086
The placing of esoteric schools within the "Spiritual research" section is unexplained by the text, and is not self-evident, nor does a Wikipedia search for "Esoteric school" help. It has been in the article a long time, from September 2006. [20] Privately, this is not a problem to me, but could some copyedit clarify? Would it suffice simply to put it under a subheading of its own? Qexigator ( talk) 18:19, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Given that the divisions of the School of Spiritual Science created in 1923 are called "Sections" in the published English language translation of the record of the proceedings (printed and published in the USA), and that the same term has continued to be used from then to the present day, it should be used in the article with reference to that event, in the absence of good reason otherwise. Qexigator ( talk) 21:45, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Information about the 1923 founding of the School occurs in two places, with some repetition: under "The Anthroposophical Society and its cultural activities" and under "Spiritual research". Should it be in one or the other, or at least avoid repetition? Qexigator ( talk) 23:31, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
This has been blank for some time. Is there reason to retain the title? Qexigator ( talk) 11:06, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
According to the source cited in the current version (which stems from an earlier version of June 2006), [27] Steiner had concerned himself with Fichte before he became acquainted with the agent of "the Master". Is the text reconcilable with the citation? Should one or other be rectified? The section "Early spiritual experiences" ends with this: "According to Steiner, he also introduced Steiner to a person that Steiner only identified as a “Master”, and who had a great influence on Steiner's subsequent development, in particular directing him to study Fichte's philosophy. [1] But the "GA 262" refers to a document Steiner wrote for Schuré in 1907, in which the opening paragraph contains this: "At fifteen I studied Kant intensively, and before going on to college... I immersed myself in Fichte and Schelling... I gained complete understanding of the concept of time... guided totally by the spiritual life...the precondition of spiritual clairvoyance. Then came acquaintance with the agent of the Master." Qexigator ( talk) 18:29, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
+ see quoted text here [28]. -- Qexigator ( talk) 18:33, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
+ ... this was mentioned on the Talk page in June 2006 [29] Qexigator ( talk) 21:39, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
Two questions on the insertion of the term "Spiritual Scientist" at the end of the first sentence [33]- 1_Why are caps used for this but not for any of "philosopher, social reformer, architect, esotericist"? 2_Is the term sufficiently supported in the sources? My comment: the info box has caps for this with a link to Anthroposophy via a redirect, but a Wikipedia search gives non-caps with reference to Steiner in Gary Lachman and Integral (spirituality), and without mention of Steiner in Arthur Eddington. -- Qexigator ( talk) 05:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Spiritual Scientist: I think the term deserves to be part of the description, as that is the essential characteristic of his work, and must be mentioned even if it is not used often. My mistake for the caps.
The Philosophy of Freedom: Again, HAS to be referred to right in the beginning as it is the foundation for all the later work.
One-sided mysticism AND science: keeps it consistent with what is described later in the section Spiritual Science. Mentioning only one of them is inaccurate. Mention both or neither. Besides, the approach to mysticism wasn't vague by definition. Mystics gained clarity of some specific experiences as opposed to the totality of experience, hence "one-sided".
Advocated ... etc: No, this is one-sided in itself... "advocated" makes it sound as if it is an agitation for a particular point of view. No legalistic notions fit here.
... explicitly spiritual component: It is not an ADDITION of a component, it is an outgrowth of it, or an evolution, the very thing Goethe emphasized. The phrase makes it appear as if spirituality was piggy-backed onto philosophy, which is not a correct description. The last sentence ought to show how this approach differs or extends that of Goethe's, else there is no point in mentioning that here.
Section (Social activism): Activism has the connotation of organizing protests and "fighting the system", or a "peaceful form of conflict" as the wiki page suggests. Since lecturing was the primary activity, it makes sense to call it social activity. Else we will have to call the work of teachers "Lecturing activism".
Accurate perception and imagination: Leaving the first phrase out is one-sided again. Unless an imagination meets a perception, we just have subjective fiction, and that has numerous references, if required.
Line 166: Asymptotically: Unnecessary mathematical reference. Very fancy, but misleads conceptually. The asymptote is something you NEVER reach, and hence quite out of place to claim here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.7.134.53 ( talk) 00:10, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
129.7.134.217 ( talk) 22:37, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Should it be retained here? While it may properly be included in "Notable ideas", it is incongruous to have it as a "Main interest", where it was first intruded at 07:09, 30 July 2009 [36], together with Jennifer Gidley, by Wfsf, whose status is "currently blocked" [37], as of April 2010. The info box links to Anthroposophy via a redirect, and a Wikipedia search gives non-caps with reference to Steiner in Gary Lachman and Integral (spirituality), and without mention of Steiner in Arthur Eddington (where the use of the term is out of place and unsourced). The Integral (spirituality) article cites Gidley in connection with: "It has also recently been noted that Rudolf Steiner (1861–1925) an Austrian spiritual scientist, educator, and esotericist who founded Anthroposophy, Waldorf education, biodynamic agriculture, anthroposophical medicine, and Eurythmy, used the term integral in a similar way to Sri Aurobindo and Gebser very early on, by 1906 comparing "integral evolution" with "Darwinian evolution." [2] Jennifer Gidley points to Steiner’s earliest use of the term integral, in reference to integral evolution in a lecture in Paris on the 26 May 1906.
The grandeur of Darwinian thought is not disputed, but it does not explain the integral evolution of man… So it is with all purely physical explanations, which do not recognise the spiritual essence of man's being. [3] [Italics added]
"
Qexigator ( talk) 14:39, 25 April 2014 (UTC) corrected re Integral (spirituality)/Gidley article. Note: No comment is being made here on Lachman or Gidley by..... Qexigator ( talk) 14:52, 25 April 2014 (UTC) Qexigator ( talk) 14:58, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Needs further review of Infobox HGilbert ( talk) 10:16, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
The term means fine art, not "sculptural art" or whatever. See any German-English dictionary HGilbert ( talk) 23:01, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I have included the entire official list; this should clarify the matter, I hope. There are also two places in this article where this list is referred to; perhaps only one is necessary. Which would be preferable? HGilbert ( talk) 18:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
In the same section: the pronoun "there", which was replaced after I removed it, is ambiguous. The last location referred to was the burned-down Goetheanum, so it sounds as if the meeting took place "there". I have clarified this. HGilbert ( talk) 23:05, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
It is not helpful to edit the article in misguided or pedantic reliance on a standard dictionary in a way that distorts the known facts, or conflates later practice with the foundng event.
[46]
[47] Given the English language sources published in English language countries, there appears to be nothing dating from 1923 to the death of Rudolf Steiner in 1925 which shows use of terms other than "fine arts" "sculptural arts" or "plastic arts" for "Bildende Künste" in respect of the appointment of Maryon as the leader of one of the sections of the School inaugurated by Steiner at that time. Factually, irrespective of any personal opinion or point of view relying on dictionaries, the term "sculptural" or its variant "plastic" are found in authentic publications recording or reporting the Foundation Meeting, as translated by persons whose good repute as German-English translators is not in doubt, one of whom is known to have been a quasi-official translator for Steiner's lectures and writings at the time, and whose name is included in the list of persons present at the Foundation Meeting. If in the course of later events, the name of any section was changed, officially or otherwise, such a change would not be retroactive in respect of the name at and after the Foundation Meeting. If there were something which suggested otherwise, perhaps a report or review in a newspaper such as the New York Times, that could be mentioned. So far, nothing at all has been produced to support contradiction of the Adams and Collis translations.
Qexigator (
talk)
06:45, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
I have changed the term to "visual arts". Perhaps this is a helpful solution? HGilbert ( talk) 23:38, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
While to my mind that does not suffice to answer the points made about translation as such, given the content of the current version under the title "Architecture and visual arts", the latter term may suffice in the context of the article as a whole. Steiner as the artist undoubtedly made known that the sculpture, once in place (not in the event), was intended to communicate by way of the spatial-visual design, including the painting of the ceilings and the colour effect of the glazing in daylight. Qexigator ( talk) 12:09, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Maybe this information will help towards letting there be an agreeable resolution about "Bildende"/sculptural/fine. Given that it is generally known that in academia, USA, "fine arts" is a derivative of beaux arts, a construction similar to belles lettres, and that it is less well-known that in German, bildende, in contexts about artistic activity, is more particularly connected with sculptural, three dimensional, plastic artworks, but by default is often used as a portmanteau for what is elsewhere known as beaux arts or fine arts; and that it is obvious and unsurprising that the terms are frequently used indiscriminately, such that this usage is reflected in dictionaries: an inquirer wiith a discerning interest in questions of linguistics and translation would not be blind to the significance of an instance such as this from an official website: [50] New choreography and plastic arts training at the Académie des Beaux-Arts. This page has been automatically translated from French into English by a translation software. Automatic translations are not as accurate as translations made by professional human translators. Nevertheless these pages can help you understand information published by the City of Brussels. "From September 2012, the Institut Supérieur des Arts et des Chorégraphies (ISAC) will be launched at the Académie Royale des Beaux-Arts - Ecole Supérieure des Arts (ARBA - ESA). It offers a French-language choreography and plastic arts training." Or, another instance: "W-S- is contemporary Polish born artist who studied at the College of Plastic Arts and Adacemy [sic] of Fine Arts in Warsaw, and the École des Beaux-Arts in Paris. He now resides in France." [51] And another: "BEAUX ARTS - Magazine of Plastic Arts Beaux Arts magazine is a magazine created in 1983 and dedicated to the Fine Art under all its forms and periods. Beaux Arts magazine est un magazine fondé en 1983 et consacré aux arts plastiques sous toutes ses formes et périodes." [52]. It is also interesting to see that the article on French art begins "French art consists of the visual and plastic arts (including architecture, woodwork, textiles, and ceramics) originating from the geographical area of France", but the term "fine art" is absent, and "Beaux" occurs only in the listing of French and Western Art museums of France. Qexigator ( talk) 21:19, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
+ It would surely be foolish to let an entity operating for the promotion of "A Professional Network for Visual Artists, Photographers, Art Collectors, and Gallery Owners", such as "Fine Art America" [53], determine the question under discussion here about the fitness of "Sculptural arts" as the Anglicizing of a name given in German in 1923, under particular circumstances, to a Section to be led by a person who happened to have been a professional sculptor in England before joining Steiner at Dornach, to assist him in the practice of that art. That could seem like conceding to product placement. Qexigator ( talk) 17:25, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Let the earlier versions be used to repair the present, subject to tweaking if proposed:
9781855843820< /ref >< ref name="wn.rsarchive.org" >Record of Foundation meeting 1923, session of 28 December, 10 a.m. ISBN 0880101938 [54]< /ref >
This accords with published information showing that in the context of the Foundation meeting, those present were conscious of the destruction of the first building as sculpted and of the prospect for the creation of the next for which Steiner's modelling was at hand. For such an occasion " plastic arts" or "sculptural" will not be felt as simply equivalent with "visual". But the German "bildende" can be continued unchanged when "visual" later comes into use, or "fine" (as distinct from mechanic), the contrast with "performing" ordinarily being tacitly understood. Qexigator ( talk) 00:04, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
For any editor who needs some help in translation: "Bildende-Kuenste". meanings: collectively - (visually) formative arts; more narrowly: crafts, graphics, painting, sculpture; more widely, including: architecture and art photography. Distinct from performing arts, literature, music. Idiomatic usage: the fine arts (with reference to music, poetry, and painting with sculpture) (German, die schönen Künste). Qexigator ( talk) 22:43, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
WP:Sources directs us to use third-party sources. In addition, due to an arbitration proceeding over this group of articles, which directed editors to completely avoid anthroposophically-published sources except for wholly uncontroversial material, a great deal of effort went into finding third-party, objective sources. In some recent additions, this principle is being abandoned. I suggest we reexamine our sourcing and find better (i.e. more objective) citations, adjusting the wording where necessary.
This would mean minimizing citations to Steiner's own work and replacing these with citations to commentaries published by standard academic presses and peer-reviewed journals. HGilbert ( talk) 22:35, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
I have provisionally moved the section on "Steiner's relationship to Christianity" to a be a subheading of his philosophical thought; it seems to me this is its proper place. Any thoughts. HGilbert ( talk) 21:33, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
I am not sure this is the appropriate category...but there's probably enough RSs out there to bear it out. Any comments? HGilbert ( talk) 14:10, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
I read the article with perhaps an excessively critical eye, but I need to point out an issue that struck me.
"Steiner thus explicitly denies all justification to a division between faith and knowledge; otherwise expressed, between the spiritual and natural worlds."
Those are not the same thing. Whether one can divide faith and knowledge has no bearing on a division of a spiritual and natural world. Dividing Faith and Knowledge is about the method, or system, of reaching (or maintaining) a conclusion. They are separate concepts by virtue of the meaning of the words, meanings which, themselves, can be discussed and argued over.
Now, I do not know what Steiner actually said or wrote on the matter, so I cannot in good faith edit the article. I don't know if he meant that the division of knowledge/faith shouldn't be, or if he meant there can be no difference between the spiritual and natural worlds. Based on the article, I would surmise it is the latter , since it fits his idea of a unity of existence.
The problem is that if that which is called the "spiritual world", as Steiner suggests, is in unison with the "natural world", then we have simply that - "world" - in which case, that world can be accessed for the sake of knowledge, but this cannot "override" faith (nor vice versa) since there are still cases where the aforementioned specific meanings of the words exclude the other one. If I imagine a thing, a type of Russel's Teapot, and decide it is real, I have made a decision to Faith, but if this alone were enough to posit knowledge of this thing, then faith would truly be the most powerful access to the world. However, whereas I may have faith that someone will read this comment and take it seriously enough to reply, there is NO justification for me to claim I know someone will.
That is, a separation (or not) of spiritual and natural worlds, has no bearing on the concepts of knowledge and faith.
If Steiner's point is, in fact, that knowledge and faith have no "real" difference (as opposed to a rationally reached, conceptual difference) then this is something that ought to be clarified in the article. If Steiner's point is that we have no justification for separating the spiritual world from the natural, there is no reason to suggest there's no division to be had between the concepts of faith and knowledge, since these concepts are BUILT, by rational human beings, BECAUSE we see a difference between two similar concepts, whereas the concepts of spiritual and natural worlds (or "subjective" and "objective" by more modern nomenclature) never suggest, in their meaning, an opposition, the only suggestion of difference being on of perspective and perception (to the tune of; no one but I can access my thoughts, therefore they are separate from all else).
Feel free to disregard this whole thing (this has been a rant by a failing philosophy student), but I thought a major mistake appeared to be perpetrated by a subtle error in a turn of phrase. The sentence I quoted above sounds nice, but is laden with post-modern ambiguity.
Noumegnos ( talk) 12:57, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Rudolf Steiner - born Steiner Rudolf - was a hungarian citizen. He was born in the Hungarian Kingdom. At the time of his birth (1861), Murakirály (from 1920 belonged to The South slavic Yugoslavia, today Croatia) belonged to the Hungarian Kingdom. After the defeat of the Hungarian Revolution 1848/49, the passive resistance of the hungarians forced Austria to reinstate the hungarian constitution (1222), the souvereign hungarian state and the territorial integrity of the hungarian state on the 20th of October, 1860 (patent of October). To decide in this question we could have a look at the birth certificate of Steiner Rudolf. He himself said (when asked in an office in Austria about his place birth): "please include into your document that I was born in Kraljevec, Hungary, on the 27th of February, 1861".
His poem is now published in the Metapolisz DVD line. This poem - thought in German - reflects pretty well his thoughts about divine will. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Derzsi Elekes Andor ( talk • contribs) 13:03, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
That Steiner believed he had achieved a "complete understanding of time" by age 15 is a weird claim; it's unclear what he meant by this, it's not particularly relevant to anything else in the text, and I wonder why it is included. (The intention cannot be to duplicate his whole autobiography.) HGilbert ( talk) 19:42, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Steiner only created one sculpture (other than architectural models, which don't really count), and this was done with the constant assistance of a professional sculptor, Edith Maryon. I don't think this really qualifies him as a sculptor. In any case, the one work was fashioned in the 20th century, so 19th century sculptor is definitely misleading. HGilbert ( talk) 15:09, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
I think the sculptural aspects of both Goetheanums and other buildings need to be taken into account -- the columns, especially the capitals and the metamorphic transformations between them, the proscenium and the exterior window casements, the speaker's podium, the sculptural forms in the staircases, etc. [67] [68]. These are much more sculptural rather than architectural. Indeed, the first Goetheanum especially was as a whole as much a sculpture as an architectural work. I think this warrants the category of 20th sculptors. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 17:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
I wonder if the information about Steiner's parents couldn't be shortened from:
To
What do people think? HGilbert ( talk) 19:00, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
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Adding "writer" to Steiner's list of attributes seems both superfluous and misleading. Superfluous because other characteristics given in the lede -- philosopher, social reformer, literary critic -- imply this. Misleading because adding "writer" to the other categories implies he wrote about something other than these things. HGilbert ( talk) 12:37, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
Your source used author. Let's stick with how Steiner is described, not random quotes from elsewhere! HGilbert ( talk) 00:14, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Seems like he ought to be on the list of people in the reception section. Jellypear ( talk) 22:31, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
The sources here refer to other right-wing movements, not just the NS party. In addition, though I know there's some controversy over this, reliable sources overwhelmingly support the classification of NS as right-wing: see e.g. Guy Tourlamain, Völkisch Writers and National Socialism: A Study of Right-wing Political Culture in Germany, 1890-1960. I have reverted the change that cast this in doubt. HGilbert ( talk) 20:18, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
I'd like to incorporate what is of value in the suggested edit, but I am encountering a few difficulties comprehending how best to do so.
Current:
At the beginning of the twentieth century he founded an esoteric spiritual movement, anthroposophy, with roots in German idealist philosophy and theosophy; other influences include Goethean science and Rosicrucianism.
Proposed:
At the beginning of the twentieth century he founded an esoterically inspired movement and meditative practice with spiritual, artistic, social and other practical applications anthroposophy. His work had multidisciplinary roots in Scientific method, albeit representing a new Epistemology, German idealist philosophy, Phenomenology (philosophy) and Goethean science. Other influences include theosophy and Rosicrucianism.
According to my professor of Western Esotericism at the University of Amsterdam, Wouter Hanegraaff, no serious scholar wanted the dubious honor of editing Goethe's scientific work, which was largely considered at the time "worthless prose and wrong science". So, it was not actually something appreciated by most of Steiner's contemporaries. WP:PUFF should be avoided. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 20:26, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Steiner complaining about his job at the Goethe archive:
Leijenhorst, Cees (2006). "Steiner, Rudolf, * 25.2.1861 Kraljevec (Croatia), † 30.3.1925 Dornach (Switzerland)". In
Hanegraaff, Wouter J. (ed.). Dictionary of Gnosis and Western Esotericism. Leiden / Boston: Brill. p. 1086. Steiner moved to Weimar in 1890 and stayed there until 1897. He complained bitterly about the bad salary and the boring philological work, but found the time to write his main philosophical works during his Weimar period. ... Steiner's high hopes that his philosophical work would gain him a professorship at one of the universities in the German-speaking world were never fulfilled. Especially his main philosophical work, the Philosophie der Freiheit, did not receive the attention and appreciation he had hoped for.
Quoted by Tgeorgescu ( talk) 20:51, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
For Goethe's standing as a scientist according to that time's mainstream view see Peter Selg (26 August 2014). Rudolf Steiner, Life and Work: Volume 1 (1861-1890): Childhood, Youth, and Study Years. SteinerBooks. p. 130. ISBN 978-1-62148-084-6. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:45, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Another source: Henry Barnes (1 August 2005). Into the Heart's Land. SteinerBooks. p. 40. ISBN 978-0-88010-857-7. I know that these sources (the later two books) are published by Anthroposophical presses, but we could use the criterion of dissimilarity: if Anthroposophists concede these points, that really was the mainstream view of that time. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:59, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
To be clear: Steiner was not to any significant extent an artist: he painted a few paintings and carved one joint sculpture. He taught one child for a number of years, but this does not make him an educator (though he was a lecturer on education and a founder of a new pedagogy). He studied science for a few years at university, and wrote about science, but this does not make him a scientist.
Nor did he gain recognition in the 19th century as a philosopher, scientist, or social analyst. His works on Nietzsche and Haeckel were in no sense best-selling.
Wikipedia standards are to avoid "puff", such as the claim that he was "a genius in 12 fields", though if this claim was from a more notable cultural figure it would be suitable for the reception section. It is enough to list his accomplishments and let readers judge for themselves Clean Copy talk 10:13, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
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The newly-added passage quoting Sebottendorf is highly suspect -- see this evidence that he was not a reliable source regarding Steiner and the second half of the passage quoted what looks to be a website of the Thule Society, again an unreliable source. I have removed the complete sentence provisionally. Clean Copy talk 04:02, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Furthermore, the first citation given specifies that Ludendorff "is not a reliable witness"! The second citation is to a source that does not refer at all to the battle of the Marne or to Moltke. Clean Copy talk 12:19, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Literally, Steiner did believe in a physical incarnation of Christ, but in a special way, namely Jesus and Christ were two different beings and Christ had possessed Jesus since his baptism. Actually, for him Christ Jesus was a mix of three beings: the physical and etheric bodies of one Jesus child, the astral body or the ego of the other Jesus child (who died meanwhile) and the Christ. So, no, Christ wasn't fully man, he was a divine being who possessed a man. And he did not do so since that man was born. According to Steiner, Christ got incarnated in Jesus, but Jesus isn't Christ. Jesus was merely a vehicle/receptacle for Christ. According to Steiner, there were to Jesuses, later they merged (to some extent) and only sometime later did Christ incarnate in Jesus. I did not get it fully, but there was some Anthroposophical talk about the phantom of Jesus eating fish. So, yeah, what our article says about the incarnation of Christ is somewhat misleading. I believe that Steiner was a modern Gnostic, Ancient Gnosticism itself being extremely diverse (they did not toe one and the same line). So, by incarnated Christ he did not mean the same thing as Evangelicals or rank-and-file Catholics mean by incarnated Christ. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:02, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
The vast majority of his books are about clairvoyance and most of his fame is due to clairvoyance. He wasn't a major philosopher, or a major architect, but he was a major clairvoyant. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 13:59, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
The sentence:
"Steiner followed Wilhelm Dilthey in using the term Geisteswissenschaft, usually translated as "spiritual science"."
would be less misleading as
"Steiner followed Wilhelm Dilthey in using the term Geisteswissenschaft, but gave it his own spin, which might be translated as "spiritual science", whereas it is more commonly translated as "humanities", "human sciences" or even "moral sciences", with no connotations of spiritualism or hermetic science." .
What I've suggested is overly long, and a bit messy in terms of sentence structure, but comes much closer to the truth of Dilthey's intended meaning, which is, in fact, a key concept in modern social sciences (as interpretation, explanation and explication of meaning and historical context). The current sentence creates a false association with Steiner's thought and that of Dilthey, and is, hence, misleading. Zevonjunior ( talk) 15:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Rudolph Steiner is the man behind Rommel's occult paranoias which have left a trail of blood across the world.
I have rarely read and apologetic even for the worst crimes of religion that matches the bumbling unlettered conflagration of words, like a word salad of absurdity, that is this article on Rudolph Steiner.
This man, this repository of schizophrenia, deceptive and imaginary spiritism, this anti-semite, this anti-slav, this bumbling fool, who in 1916 delivered a series of lectures that palpitated through the Nazi movement, alleging in the same way as had been alleged against the Jews with the manufactured protocols of the elders of Zion, that the Slavic people through their Russian magnates were seeking to spread their folk soul, a kind of spiritual imaginary subhumanism, to a sixth race of subhumans, the Slavs being the fifth race of subhumans by the way, in the Americas.
Think about that for a moment. This man was creating the ideological ground for a war against the Americans, in 1916, by alleging that the legitimate struggle of East European people for liberation from the brutal oppression that they had experienced at the hands of the Ottoman Turks and the various Germanic Nations was actually a spiritism of imaginary schizophrenic lunatics like Steiner where the ever-expanding self-exculpation of morons whose power was threatened by the genuine exercise of resistance to brutal oppression was in Steiner's mind a secret conspiracy by the Slavs to spread their subhumanism onto an even lesser group of subhumans living in the United States.
To say he was influenced by philosophy, when almost every reference he makes to Helena blavatsky places her in a kind of role of a secret agent infiltrating the United States with Russian subhumanism meant to compel the United States into an alliance with the sloths against the Germans with Britain a Germanic Nation playing the role of the Roman Empire and unaware that really what's intended here was the wiping out of German people.
Consider the lunacy, of a man dignified with an article this long, who claimed himself to be a clairvoyant - someone who can predict the future - who predicted the very opposite thing that happened given that it was the Germanic people but God bless them not the British and the French, who attempted to wipe out the Slavic people. Historiaantiqua ( talk) 23:56, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
About Beginning in 1910, he described aspects of karma relating to health, natural phenomena and free will
AFAIK, Steiner never endorsed libertarian free will. According to him the will of humans is (or at least should be) determined by their own spiritual being (Self), so he was an idealistic determinist (inner determinism or inner being determinism). If I remember well, in the Philosophy of Freedom Steiner has scorn for the idea that humans can choose for something else than their strongest reason (strongest motive or strongest motivation). Found: It is, therefore, quite true that the human will is not “free” inasmuch as its direction is always determined by the strongest motive.
https://www.rsarchive.org/Books/Download/Philosophy_of_Freedom-Rudolf_Steiner-4.pdf page 25.
So, yeah, there are four possibilities:
libertarian free willmeans
making choices due to random quantum jumps. That's not what Rudolf Steiner meant.
libertarianis completely absent from his book, and
free willis not comprised by the index. The word
libertyappears only once. Also, I'm afraid that except for
free willing(mentioned only once), the words
free willnever appear in his book. Pretty much as Ellen G. White's books don't mention the word
Trinity.
There was a Kingdom of Hungary from 1000-1918 and 1918-1946. For the latter period of its history, the Emperor of Austria also ruled over the Kingdom of Hungary, which was not dissolved until 1918 (reforming shortly thereafter).
In 1867, the Austro-Hungarian Empire was formed. This did not eliminate the separate Kingdoms within the empire, however (thus the "Dual Monarchy"). (The lead of the article Austrian Empire clarifies the special status of the Hungarian Kingdom within the Empire.) Clean Copy talk 16:27, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
I found this para in the article:
Steiner's literary estate is correspondingly broad. Steiner's writings, published in about forty volumes, include books, essays, four plays ('mystery dramas'), mantric verse, and an autobiography. His collected lectures, making up another approximately 300 volumes, discuss an extremely wide range of themes. Steiner's drawings, chiefly illustrations done on blackboards during his lectures, are collected in a separate series of 28 volumes. Many publications have covered his architectural legacy and sculptural work. *ref: https://www.biblio.com/rudolf-steiner/author/1038
The information might or might not be accurate, but biblio.com is not a reliable source. If anyone is interested, please find a better source (such a well-known man must have decent biographies, surely?) Achar Sva ( talk) 01:01, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
This article presents Steiner's work as wildly accepted and does not ground it in a wider scientific or philosophical contexts where his work has largely been dismissed. This is probably a result of the articles over-reliance on primary sources to be honest— blindlynx 16:26, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
Great catch. Important for us to fix this, given Steiner's ongoing reach in 21st century education.-- Hob Gadling ( talk)
probably a result of the articles over-reliance on primary sources. Well, then probably not; instead, it could be an over-reliance on in-universe sources (fancruft, so to speak)? -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 16:18, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
ROFLMAO. Pressure cooker mentality. In agriculture and medicine Steiner would be considered their laughing stock, if we would counter-factually assume that the majority of mainstream scientists have actually read his ramblings. He may be important for the alties and tin foil hats, but he is WP:FRINGE/PS in respect to most of his falsifiable affirmations about agriculture and medicine. In the Dutch TV show Hokjesman, http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/afleveringen/1327665 , which was not unfriendly to Steiner's teachings, the commentator sarcastically affirms that Anthroposophy books are placed in the book shop in the "
boundaryfrontier science" category, i.e. "between religion and esotericism". Also he wanted to know if anyone has written books about Anthroposophy from an objective perspective (i.e. neither apologetics nor harsh criticism) and he was answered that apparently there are no such books on the market. As far as I know, one book written from an objective perspective on Steiner is Feet of Clay by Anthony Storr, but it is a study of more than one guru and does not give lots of details about Steiner's teachings. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
The gist: there almost no independent sources about Steiner. You have a huge fancruft literature, and several books by harsh critics, mostly regarding him as the personification of Evil. E.g. some New-Age-is-from-the-Devil theological manifestos. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:45, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
WP:ABOUTSELF states that the use of self-published sources is limited in the following ways:
Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the self-published source requirement that they are published experts in the field, so long as:
- the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;
- it does not involve claims about third parties;
- it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;
- there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; and
- the article is not based primarily on such sources.
Self-published or questionable references that fall outside these areas should be documented here so that they can be corrected. Clean Copy talk 10:17, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
"ATTRA – National Sustainable Agriculture Information Service". Archived from the original on 26 May 2011. Retrieved 23 May 2006. dead link
Evans, M. and Rodger, I. Anthroposophical Medicine: Treating Body, Soul and Spirit totally unreliable and self-serving
"Camphill list of communities" (PDF). dead link and self-serving claim
Die Waldorfschule baut: Sechzig Jahre Architektur der Waldorfschulen: Schule als Entwicklungsraum menschengemasser Baugestaltung Verlag Freies Geistesleben (1982) ISBN 3772502407 ties to anthroposophical movement likely embellished claim.
Looking at this it is clear that unreliable sources aren't the only problem it seems that the main issue is that there are numerous claims that do not meet the criteria that Ideas that have been rejected, are widely considered to be absurd or pseudoscientific, only of historical interest, or primarily the realm of science fiction, should be documented as such, using reliable sources. from WP:FRINGELEVEL. For example: the second paragraph of the biodynamic agriculture section; the Anthroposophical medicine section; the Goethean science section; moreover, the reception section is unduly charitable bordering on apologetic when it comes to his theories to do with race— blindlynx 00:34, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
Dan Dugan was banned as editor, not as author. Dugan has published in works edited by Shermer and Linse, Flynn (and Dawkins), published at ABC-CLIO and Prometheus Books. He has been cited as authoritative upon Anthroposophy in a book published at the University of Chicago Press (Ruse 2013). Ruse has also published at Oxford University Press, so Ruse's reputation counts as established. This fulfills WP:UBO. Also, the guideline WP:PARITY works very much in favor of accepting Dugan's works as WP:RS, and against accepting works by Anthroposophists as WP:RS. tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:34, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Books which WP:V that Steiner was either a rank pseudoscientist or a clairvoyant or a Nazi have been published at:
Namely OUP verifies both "clairvoyant" and "Nazi", all others verify WP:PSCI. tgeorgescu ( talk) 04:26, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
The distinction between Pseudo and para science is pretty philosophy MOS:JARGONy and i'm not sure it's worth mentioning at all. Further the Mahner essay cited is just a technical topology of various non-sciences and makes a passing mention to the parascientific nature of anthroposophy but not Steiner directly. The sources he uses for the claim are:
and might be more useful— blindlynx 15:28, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Dick Taverne states that Steiner was a Nazi (i.e. member of the NSDAP). Taverne, Dick (2006).
The March of Unreason: Science, Democracy, and the New Fundamentalism. OUP Oxford. p. 28.
ISBN
978-0-19-157861-8. Retrieved 3 February 2022. Rudolf Steiner joined the Nazi party in its early days
Taverne is a noble, a life peer, a respected politician, and was published at Oxford University Press. tgeorgescu ( talk) 05:49, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
The first think I’ll say is that I have long avoided the term “objectivity” when it comes to the various things I do, such as trying to reconstruct the past, or to interpret texts, or to analyze arguments. This may seem weird, but I don’t think “objectivity” or “subjectivity” are that helpful as categories.
— Bart Ehrman, Can Historians Be Neutral?, ehrmanblog.org
Same as we don't hold Heidegger accountable for the Holocaust, we don't hold Steiner accountable for the Holocaust. Judging that Steiner agreed he could be described as an individualistic anarchist, he was probably an adept of Ernst Röhm, precisely like Heidegger. So, they were involved early (i.e. without foreknowledge of what will happen to the Jews) and supported a losing wing of the Nazi party. tgeorgescu ( talk) 21:23, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Instead of an indictment of the follies of esoteric wisdom seeking, the history recounted here can serve as a reminder of the irreducible ambiguities of modernity. Twentieth century Europe witnessed incongruous efforts to reconcile these ambiguities, from Fascism in Italy to National Socialism in Germany, and occult movements partook of the same ambivalent atmosphere. As a hybrid of esoteric and life reform elements, Steiner’s spiritual science proved particularly susceptible to such factors.
— Staudenmaier, pp. 6-7
Though raised Catholic, Büchenbacher had partial Jewish ancestry and was considered a “half-Jew” by Nazi standards. He emigrated to Switzerland in 1936. According to his post-war memoirs, “approximately two thirds of German anthroposophists more or less succumbed to National Socialism.” He reported that various influential anthroposophists were “deeply infected by Nazi views” and “staunchly supported Hitler.” Both Guenther Wachsmuth, Secretary of the Swiss-based General Anthroposophical Society, and Marie Steiner, the widow of Rudolf Steiner, were described as “completely pro-Nazi.” Büchenbacher retrospectively lamented the far-reaching “Nazi sins” of his colleagues.59
— Staudenmaier p. 18
Steiner was a member of a völkisch Wagner club, and anthroposophist authors endorsed Wagner’s views on race.45
— Staudenmaier p. 79
From the perspective of contemporary critics of the völkisch scene, Steiner’s faction sometimes seemed to be cut from the same cloth as the emerging Hitler movement. 68
— Staudenmaier p. 86
In Karlsruhe, where the secretariat of the Anthroposophical Society in Germany was located, the Gestapo found no reason for any police action and described anthroposophists in the area as “completely irreproachable.” Indeed, they reported, “most members are rather right-wing, or even belong to the NSDAP.”17
— Staudenmaier p. 107
Anti-occultists within the Nazi hierarchy were not appeased by such reports. Seeking ways to obstruct anthroposophical activities, they encouraged rumors that Steiner was Jewish and the movement under Jewish control. The anthroposophist leadership responded by applying for a retroactive ‘Aryan certificate’ for Steiner, which they duly received in October 1933.21 Anthroposophist representatives constantly stressed Steiner’s Aryan ancestry. In September 1933 Marie Steiner wrote to Rudolf Hess asking him to forbid the German press from claiming that Rudolf Steiner was Jewish. She insisted on Steiner’s “pure Aryan heritage” and characterized him as a devoted advocate of German interests.22 A May 1934 declaration by Elisabeth Klein, a leader of the Waldorf school federation, claimed that Steiner was the first to combat the “lie of German war guilt” after World War I, and complained that “Rudolf Steiner has been slandered by Jewish lies in the press.”23
— Staudenmaier p. 108
In September 1935 Poppelbaum assured the Gestapo that the entire leadership of the Anthroposophical Society was of “completely Aryan descent.”29
— Staudenmaier pp. 109-110
The sd prevailed on a significant organizational question: whether former members of the Anthroposophical Society could join the Nazi party or receive civil service appointments. Nazi opponents of occultism argued for treating anthroposophists like freemasons and thus barring them from party membership. Both Hess and Alfred Rosenberg supported less stringent regulations for anthroposophists. Bormann settled the matter by going directly to Hitler, and the policy remained that individuals who previously belonged to the Anthroposophical Society could not join the party.59
— Staudenmaier p. 117
By 1940 the anti-esoteric faction within the sd and Gestapo considered itself outmaneuvered by anthroposophy’s allies. They noted with resignation that Steiner’s books could still be sold and that Hess had allowed Waldorf schools, biodynamic agriculture, and the Study Circle for Rudolf Steiner’s Spiritual Science to continue. There was, in their view, “no occasion for any measures” against anthroposophy, even if they were dissatisfied with this situation.64 In spite of serious setbacks, anthroposophists had managed to accommodate themselves to the Third Reich. The prospect of unmitigated persecution was held at bay for years in a tenuous truce between pro-anthroposophical and anti-anthroposophical Nazi factions.
— Staudenmaier pp. 118-119
Along with other anthroposophical institutions, the Dresden Waldorf school was closed by the Gestapo in July 1941 in the wake of the campaign against occultism.75 In the end, anthroposophy’s adversaries within the Nazi movement prevailed over its allies, after eight years of efforts to establish Waldorf education as a pillar of the national community.
— Staudenmaier p. 199
I don't know if it's true or false, but it is at least not an implausible claim. I'll go with the consensus. Anyway, I found the Staudenmaier RS and used it twice in the article. All the quotes above advocate that the claim is plausible.
And, another thing: those people were not all idiots. The mainstream anthropological paradigm of the 19th century was racism. And Germany was a country already having antisemitic bias. So, while racist claims are not done in our culture, those claims were mainstream in theirs.
It's like asking why Ellen G. White condemned masturbation: it is because that passed as top-notch medical science in her own time. That was also the case with "scientific racism". Mircea Eliade stated that not being a racist and not discriminating people is a mentality one can attribute to Freemasonry, i.e. Masonic lodges are the source of this mentality—Eliade thought that he found God through rejecting Freemasonry. tgeorgescu ( talk) 15:30, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
There's no question that Steiner influences Nazism -- whole books have devoted to that. But don't think we know he was personally a member. I'd go with " Dick Taverne claims that Steiner was a member of the NSDAP". Feoffer ( talk) 04:53, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Hitler more often than not dismissed all kinds of mysticism, whether occultism or neo-paganism, as superstitious nonsense.tgeorgescu ( talk) 06:23, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
References
Two statements recently added to this article ( 1, 2) used citations to the Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience to support the idea that Steiner's work was pseudoscientific. The actual text cited states, "Effects of the preparations have been verified scientifically." There is no other comment on the scientific or unscientific nature of Steiner's work. I have changed one statement to directly quote the cited text and removed the other, which is simply not supported by the text cited. Clean Copy talk 22:14, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
In physics, Steiner championed Johann Wolfgang von Goethe’s color theory over Isaac Newton, and he called relativity “brilliant nonsense.” In astronomy, he taught that the motions of the planets were caused by the relationships of the spiritual beings that inhabited them. In biology, he preached vitalism and doubted germ theory.
— Dan Dugan, op. cit.
I would tend to agree as well that Bdub hasn't been disruptive yet. But I fail to see how anyone could pursue the argument that mainstream scholarship is wrong and ancient sources are right without quickly becoming disruptive. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:09, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
He was also a peddler of rank pseudoscienceis WP:V by 3 (three) WP:RS. Many more could be produced if you wish, I just scratched the surface of already existing information cited at Wikipedia. I know it and you know it. So, please, let's not play dumb by reverting my edits.
edit conflict Just a note that this diff [ [78]] is based on a block quote in the cited source explaining what biodynamic preparations are. The original source of the "have been verified scientifically" line is Wildfeur, Sherry. N.d. “What Is Biodynamics?” Bio-dynamic Farming and Gardening Association. URL: http://www.biodynamics.com/biodynamics.html. (Accessed on June 3, 2001). In context the cited source dose not support the claim and the original source runs up against WP:ABOUTSELF— blindlynx 00:44, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Let me return to familiar ones like the traffic light. If it’s red and you see it as green, the outcome can be disastrous; Derrida doesn’t deny it. You know, it’s a bad misreading… bad misreading.
— Rick Roderick, 307 Derrida and the Ends of Man (1993)
#Support - HOWEVER, I think the initial paragraph needs to remove the word 'material' and replace it with 'information' (or similar). The use of the word 'material' can lead a person to think that we only accept words that are verbatim from other sources, which is actually against policy, yet it is FAR too common in Wikipedia. I've been involved in too many debates where people argue that "no, the source said 'rough' not 'coarse'" and people spend endless hours debating whether changing a word constitutes original research. But during this RFC, we're supposed to be focused on the "truth" part of the intro, so I guess despite my misgivings, I'll say 'SUPPORT'. -- Avanu ( talk) 03:06, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Im very sorry to appear to be a pain in the ass to everyone, 8-( but I've just noticed that the intro mentions the word 'material'. This implies that we are lifting stuff verbatim from published sources. I suggest changing this word to 'information'.-- Light current 00:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Material is better, because information implies that it's true. The sentence doesn't imply that we are plagiarizing. It says we only publish material that has already been published, not that we copy it word for word. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Steiner was a pseudoscientist, Dugan just had to make this clear in any other combination of words to that extent. tgeorgescu ( talk) 02:10, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
I think this deserves an explanation: I don't deny that Rudolf Steiner was a clairvoyant, or that some Anthroposophists do become clairvoyant. What I deny is that clairvoyance gives one deeper, paramount insight into medical science, agriculture, astronomy, and so on.
Storr, Anthony (1997) [1996]. "IV. Rudolf Steiner". Feet of Clay: Saints, Sinners, and Madmen: A Study of Gurus. New York: Free Press Paperbacks, Simon & Schuster. pp. 69–70.
ISBN
0-684-83495-2. His belief system is so eccentric, so unsupported by evidence, so manifestly bizarre, that rational skeptics are bound to consider it delusional.... But, whereas Einstein's way of perceiving the world by thought became confirmed by experiment and mathematical proof, Steiner's remained intensely subjective and insusceptible of objective confirmation.
Or, to put it otherwise, clairvoyance is Siddhi and using your Siddhis is bad for spiritual progress. (It doesn't mean that I buy into the theory of Yoga, it is just a comparison.)
About described as
vs. are largely
, "described" implies that there is some, somewhat large room for doubt. Well, this ignores how categorical is the judgment of the reality-based community. In the context of discovery, dreams and mysticism are permitted, see e.g.
August Kekulé#Kekulé's dream. But in the context of justification, science (the scientific method) mercilessly evaluates the advanced hypotheses.
So, how did Rudolf Steiner himself view mainstream science? He accused it of dogmatism, while his own brand called Goethean science would purportedly be free of dogma (see Dugan in Flynn and Dawkins, quoted inside the article). And he accused it of Ahrimanism, meaning materialism.
According to Skeptic's Dictionary, "There is no question that Steiner made contributions in many fields, but as a philosopher, scientist, and artist he rarely rises above mediocrity and is singularly unoriginal. His spiritual ideas seem less than credible and are certainly not scientific." But I won't
WP:CITE it since it is not reliable or notable enough. Also, as I told before, I appreciate how Steiner described ethical individualism. Retracted, since I saw it got published at Wiley.
tgeorgescu (
talk)
20:00, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Coming back to the Chopra example: Chopra never belonged to Wagner clubs, and has never claimed to be a clairvoyant. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:05, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Ethical individualism is a theory of ethics. It is opposed to ethical (or moral) collectivism, i.e. opposed to an universal moral code applied mechanistically. Maybe he got it from Nietzsche, but Nietzsche had a very obscurantist writing style (i.e. hugely multi-interpretable). These being said, Steiner had nothing against "don't steal" and "don't murder" (i.e. generic interdictions), he was more against positive demands from a collectivist moral code. And, no, he wasn't against altruism. tgeorgescu ( talk) 08:47, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
This is odd wording in the lead paragraph. Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? ( talk) 02:18, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
I see that editors have cleaned up much of this article, except there is an error message in the reflist. Upon investigation I found the culprit to be "
[1]
." I later found this:"
[1]
failed verification
" So should I remove the orphan tag, or should we have some way to warn other editors to not use the same source and risk getting sanctioned?--
23mason (
talk)
17:22, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
References
WP:Neutrality specifies that on Wikipedia, neutrality means "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." I don't see here any sources (much less reliable sources) being suggested that present points of view that are not included. Unless we can demonstrate unrepresented POVs, this is not the right tag. Clean Copy talk 21:03, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
people with a visceral dislike forWP:FRINGE subjects. Spot on! tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:24, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
I no longer believe there are spirits like sylphs, gnomes, salamanders and elvesis reason enough for immediate dismissal. And they tell that overtly: overt disbelief in core Anthroposophical teachings means one is finished as a Waldorf teacher. Anthroposophical MDs cannot claim that mistletoe is not effective against cancer, since that is heresy and they would be sacked on the spot. Reaffirming such dogma means they are extremely prone to self-deception, rather than facing empirical reality. The old ideology vs. reality game. Anthroposophical MDs say they're right about mistletoe and every reputable and independent source claims otherwise. I'd like to be proven wrong, but please no WP:PROFRINGE apologetics! tgeorgescu ( talk) 03:50, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
Can we stick to verifiable sources? Neither your opinion nor mine are relevant here. Clean Copy talk 23:07, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
We aren't going to feed six billion people with organic fertilizer. If we tried to do it, we would level most of our forest and many of those lands would be productive only for a short period of time.If you want a real-world case, see Sri Lanka.
I have reported the edit war to WP:FTN. Clean Copy and 23mason have already been warned of discretionary sanctions for pseudoscience and alternative medicine. tgeorgescu ( talk) 22:37, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
As for the page having two sets of rules, it doesn't: sources representing mainstream scientific thought have precedence over mysticism and fringe science. That should be a fairly simple rule to comprehend and abide by.
@ Rodanmeb: You're edit warring against basic website policy, namely WP:PSCI.
I would tend to agree as well that Bdub hasn't been disruptive yet. But I fail to see how anyone could pursue the argument that mainstream scholarship is wrong and ancient sources are right without quickly becoming disruptive. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:09, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
And what concord hath Christ with Belial?
And what concord hath Wikipedia with Steinerian pseudoscience?
And I know this playbook by rote: WP:FRINGE POV-pushers who claim to understand WP:NPOV better than all established Wikipedians. Well, WP:PSCI is actually part of the WP:NPOV policy.
This is part of the neutrality policy of this website: The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such.
I explain you the basic policy of this website, but all arguments against basic policy are simply wasting your own time.
So, no, making the pseudoscience label appear subjective or disputed does not cohere with our policies and guidelines. We don't believe in teach the controversy.
Let me repeat: Rudolf Steiner is a pseudoscience guru. A topic ban has been enacted upon someone who did not abide by this understanding. You could be next. So, no, you're not fighting against me, you're fighting against the well-oiled machinery of Wikipedia.
In 2022, pro-Steiner editors no longer control the narrative. Their control violated basic website policy, anyway. They've been tolerated for only so long. Now they either abide by WP:PSCI or they're out. tgeorgescu ( talk) 03:22, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
I am not a denialist, nor an anthroposoph nor a fan of Rudolf Steiner. And I therefore do not wish to be categorized as such. Like you, I am academically educated, and regard the scientific method very highly. But precisely the following sentence: 'His ideas are largely pseudoscientific.[20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30] Others call them parascience.[31]', implies that there is no scientific consensus that Steiner's ideas are pseudoscientific, after all others describe his ideas as parascience. So my point is not so much to equalize science with fringe science, but to equalize the first mentioned sources to the last mentioned sources.
Furthermore, I find only the source to Staudenmaier at the sentence : He was also prone to pseudohistory' not sufficient to make such a statement. That is why I have modified that sentence as well. I have read Staudenmaier, but he does not address the emanationism that underlies Steiner's history reading and Theosophy which is quite essential in understanding it. Again I am not a denialist, but I do think that statements like this should be properly substantiated, precisely in the name of the scientific method. Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodanmeb ( talk • contribs) 11:59, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
injustice, nor am I a
bullyor
dictatorfor applying the WP:RULES which are universally mandatory at this website. If one does not like the WP:PSCI policy, they should avoid editing this article. Or, better, vote with their feet. We cannot make everyone happy, this is a website of mainstream knowledge, not of WP:SOAPBOXING for various sects.
@ 23mason: https://www.famousphilosophers.org/contact/ fails according to WP:BLOGS. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:04, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
@ Rapidavocado: He wasn't a philosopher foremost, but he was a philosopher nonetheless. Even if you don't agree with his POV, he could write philosophy when he wanted to. tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:49, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Whatever influence Steiner had on Schweitzer, the later did not convert to mysticism, occultism, or Spiritual Science. Steiner wrote scathingly about the quest for the historical Jesus: https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/FrJeCh_index.html tgeorgescu ( talk) 06:27, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
By commenting out several sources, these are not completely gone from the article, but these are not displayed either. tgeorgescu ( talk) 18:41, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
References
Steiner's WP:N is due to being clairvoyant and occultist. Of course, he was much more than just a preacher of occultism, he got involved in science, medicine and agriculture, although the gist is that he mainly peddled pseudoscience in such realms. Same as Ronald Reagan's WP:N is due to being POTUS, and not due to being an actor.
He also was a #Philosopher, but he is not recognized as a major philosopher. I can say that his ethical individualism is somewhat unfairly ignored by the mainstream philosophers, but I am not here to WP:RGW. tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:21, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
I think this might refer to his racist ideas, where he thought people were non-white in their incarnation because their spirits hadn't reached the same level of purity. If I am right about that, then the link to colour theory (in the sense of dealing with actual colours and not racial characteristics of people) is misleading. 109.79.1.225 ( talk) 07:55, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
Just stopping by this page and saw that one claim in the introduction is followed by 12 (!) notes. Wouldn't it be better to have one or two of these (or leave them out altogether) and back up the claim in the body of the article, where the notes can be better distributed among the text? Cameron.coombe ( talk) 19:36, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Clearly you have not followed what has been said. This article is about Rudolf Steiner, a lifelong opponent of pseudoscience. It is not about alternative medicine. Qexigator ( talk) 22:52, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
He was not too old, so what caused him dying? 2A01:C22:D5FA:E500:29A5:11FD:AB5:20B5 ( talk) 17:14, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
The point being: Cerinthus wasn't really a Gnostic, but Steiner believed that Cerinthus was a Gnostic. Anyway, splitting hairs upon whether Cerinthus was indeed a Gnostic or only smeared to be so is not germane to this article.
And yup, Neo-Hermeticism, Neo-Gnosticism, and Neo-Rosicrucianism are not mutually exclusive, even to the extent that it is hard to distinguish between them, excepting their names only (i.e. self-proclaimed labels). E.g., adepts of Steiner and those of Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov regard each other with suspicion, but there is a great deal of overlap in their teachings. Both are equally Neo-Hermetic, Neo-Gnostic, and Neo-Rosicrucian. tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:11, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
I'm agnostic upon whether he was a Nazi. Dick Taverne said that, and it kinda fits the picture. But I don't know if that's true. That's why I used WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. We use it when a claim is apparently neither true, nor false. Of course, ontologically, it was either true or false. But epistemologically it is neither true, nor false. The question to people who affirm it and to people who deny it is: "How do you know?" If there is no way to know, then you don't, either. Ernst Röhm was 100% genuine Nazi, yet persecuted by the Nazis. And, whatever he was, he wasn't a turncoat. E.g. Canaris betrayed Hitler, but Röhm didn't. tgeorgescu ( talk) 21:24, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
If you think that in his view, Jesus and Christ fused for all eternity (all the rest of it), WP:CITE a WP:RS to that extent. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:30, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
The lede states that Steiner's ideas are "largely pseudoscientific." The sources given do not support this wording, however.
Thoughts for improvement? Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? ( talk) 01:31, 16 August 2022 (UTC) — Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
It is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins, but for our purposes it is not really important. We also have had perhaps 10 sources appended to that sentence in the past, and trimmed to just these because it was considered "patently obvious" that his ideas are mostly pseudoscience. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 13:51, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
as User:tgeorgescu suggests, it would be proper to drop this qualifierI could not find the place where TG says that. -- Hob Gadling ( talk)
Regarding tgeorgescu's recent edit: I'm sorry but who cares whether or not his non-scientific ideas are pseudoscience? Calling a history of philosophy 'pseudoscience' is gibberish!— blindlynx 20:10, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
Some psychiatrists believe that Gurus are unmedicated mild schizophrenics in a constant psychosis, I can also say the same exact thing here. You shout words that are true, but again, it has little to do with the article, and the situation here. Fadix 18:27, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Many studies of cults and revitalization movements have noted that the leaders are susceptible both to auditory hallucinations and sudden changes in beliefs. The schizotype, we suggest, is someone who has the capacity to shed the commonly held and socially determined world view of his natal group, and to create a unique and arbitrary world view of his own, into which he may indoctrinate others and become a prophet, or fail to indoctrinate others and become a psychotic patient.
Ernst's Law: if you are studying alternative medicine and quacks do not hate you, you are not doing your job. Guy ( Help!) 08:24, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
Taverne's claim that Steiner was a Nazi does not deserve to be included here.
Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? ( talk) 09:21, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
If you deny the application of WP:YESPOV, then answer this question: which is the opposing view? According to which WP:RS?
Some of the ten RS have been public for several decades. Who are their detractors? I don't mean detractors in general, but detractors of the claim that Anthroposophy is neognosticism. If there are dissenters, WP:CITE the dissenters.
And if you claim that Anthroposophy is neorosicrucian: there isn't a contradiction between neorosicrucian and neognostic. tgeorgescu ( talk) 08:36, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
I emphatically deny that the Goldwater rule is applicable to Treher, Wolfgang. Hitler, Steiner, Schreber – Gäste aus einer anderen Welt. Die seelischen Strukturen des schizophrenen Prophetenwahns, Oknos: Emmendingen, 1966 (newer edition: Oknos, 1990). ISBN 3-921031-00-1; Wolfgang Treher Archived 2005-02-12 at the Wayback Machine.
Supporting WP:RS:
Clairvoyance
Also known as lucidity, telesthesia, and cryptestesia. Clairvoyance is French for seeing clearly. The term is used in the parapsychological literature to denote a ∗visual or ∗compound hallucination attributable to a metaphysical source. It is therefore interpreted as ∗telepathic, ∗veridical, or at least ∗coincidental hallucination.
Reference
Guily, R.E. (1991) Harper's encyclopedia of mystical and paranormal experience. New York, NY: Castle Books.
Clairaudience
The term clairaudience comes from the French words for hearing clearly. The term is used in the parapsychological literature to denote a ∗verbal or ∗nonverbal auditory hallucination that is attributable to a metaphysical source, and is therefore interpreted as a ∗telepathic, ∗veridical, or at least ∗coincidental hallucination.
Reference
Guily, R.E. (1991). Harper's encyclopedia of mystical and paranormal experience. New York, NY: Castle Books.
Many studies of cults and revitalization movements have noted that the leaders are susceptible both to auditory hallucinations and sudden changes in beliefs. The schizotype, we suggest, is someone who has the capacity to shed the commonly held and socially determined world view of his natal group, and to create a unique and arbitrary world view of his own, into which he may indoctrinate others and become a prophet, or fail to indoctrinate others and become a psychotic patient.
Quoted by tgeorgescu.
Steiner is dead since almost a century, he left no children or grandchildren behind, so WP:BLPSPS does not apply. WP:PARITY does apply. I don't think that the fact that Wolfgang Treher was a psychiatrist is in doubt. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:06, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The clairvoyant hallucinations of Anthroposophists react similarly to high-quality eurythmy shows. So, in that sense, their clairvoyant perceptions are "intersubjective". But those are not deep insights into reality. How do I know? "By their fruits you shall know them." The scientific fruits of Anthroposophy are extremely subpar. Instead of winning the majority of the Nobel prizes, they got debunked as pseudoscientists.
I don't know any WP:RS which spell this out, so more eyes are needed. The point is made at https://theosophy.world/encyclopedia/epistemology , but that isn't a WP:RS. tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:01, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
@ Ryguy913: Take racism out of Anthroposophy, and it will crumble like a house of cards. Again, Rudolf Steiner's racism is not warmongering, nor malevolent, but he is a racist. If Steiner is an evildoer, he is so as a champion of antivaxxers, rather than as a champion of racism.
“Unambiguous exposés of quackery will inevitably appear rude to some people and hurt some feelings. This is a fact of adult life.” Kimball C. Atwood.
@ Ryguy913: Why those are not facts? The WP:BURDEN is upon you to show that in the mainstream academia those do not count as facts.
You should know that Wikipedia has a low tolerance for denialism. tgeorgescu ( talk) 21:22, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
References
I strongly disagree that Rudolf Steiner was a scientist. By and large, he never participated in the scientific community, or, to the extent that he did, he peddled pseudoscience; he was a pseudoscientist pur sang.
As an artist: I saw his sculpture, it looks like outsider art. I'm not buying the idea that modern art has to be ugly. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
[...] for instance, an island like Great Britain swims in the sea and is held fast by the forces of the stars. In actuality, such islands do not sit directly upon a foundation; they swim and are held fast from outside.Such examples could be repeated ad nauseam. These not only show him as an ignoramus, but as someone who completely severed the contact with reality. Or, as G.B. Shaw put it about somebody else, these are a "curious record of the visions of a drug addict". Such insights about Great Britain did not come from the supernatural realm, but he simply suffered of psychosis. He was not privy to the secrets of the Seven Elohim, but he was simply psychotic.
@ Butterfly or Chuang Tzu?: If we drop Taverne's claim, same applies to the claim of Hitler declaring "war against Steiner":
The irony is that both claims could be true, but at different points in time.
Also, Hitler's war against Anthroposophy was mainly fought through rhetoric, while the war against, say, Jehovah's Witnesses meant they were sent to concentration camps until they recant their faith. So, yes, the Nazi regime attacked Anthroposophists through propaganda rather than through the use of force, and this was especially true since Hess flew to England (before his flight, he was cancelling both avenues for attacking Anthroposophists). Anthroposophists (if deemed Aryans and not taking action against the regime) were rather lambasted than persecuted, the Jehovah's Witnesses were really persecuted. Theosophists and Ariosophists were sent to concentration camps, but not Anthroposophists. Of course, if one was a Jew or acted against the regime, being an Anthroposophist was not a get me free out of jail card.
Hitler knew he owed his success to an Anthroposophist (meaning Hess), and Himmler was willing to cherrypick what he liked from Anthroposophy.
So, what does Taverne say? He puts Steiner at an early stage of the Nazi Party, together with Martin Heidegger (and Ernst Röhm). So, there is no implication that Steiner was guilty for the Holocaust, or something like that. tgeorgescu ( talk) 22:23, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Okay, I have removed both claims as being unreliably sourced. tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
"War against Steiner" was introduced at [80], several months before the newspaper article, so it is definitely WP:CITOGENESIS. The editor WP:CITED https://web.archive.org/web/20060103040648/http://www.anthroposophy.com/aktuelles/wiesberger.html , which is not a reliable source, and it does not say that "war against Steiner" was Hitler's POV. Instead it claims it was published in a German Catholic nationalist newspaper. Since in 1921 Anthroposophy was already considered a heresy, it is not difficult to understand why Catholics wanted to fight against Steiner. But, again, that makes it a Catholic POV, not a Nazi POV. Nobody said that Catholics cannot be nationalists. A Catholic newspaper condemning a heretical religion is nothing out of the ordinary, and it wasn't a Nazi POV. tgeorgescu ( talk) 02:14, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
David Tornheim ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
I'm not promising to provide a third opinion at this point, so I haven't removed it from the
WP:3O#Active disagreements. If someone else wants to give the third opinion ahead of me, please feel free!
I can't tell exactly what source(s) you are arguing about. I know one was published at Oxford University Press, which should be a reliable source on many topics. I see something about "Taverne". I don't know who that is. Can you please explain in the appropriate sections? Please focus on the
WP:RS and why you think it is or is not reliable. --
David Tornheim (
talk)
05:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Rudolf Steiner joined the Nazi party in its early days
tgeorgescu: In the WP:RSN discussion ( WP:RSN#Rudolf Steiner and Anthroposophy), you mention here that the "war on Steiner" likely originated in a Catholic newspaper. If you have WP:RS for that, I suggest adding it to the article in an appropriate place.
DarmaniLink's suggestion above could also be used along with it, so that the competing claims over where the phrase originated are more visible. As a reader, I do like to read disputes on the authenticity of claims in articles. It helps me as a reader to better discern the quality of the information I am getting and the bias that might be interjected by various sources and how it may have become a mainstream belief or rumor. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 20:30, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
@ Butterfly or Chuang Tzu?: I have removed both claims as unreliable. Your assumption is that the Nazi POV about Anthroposophy was coherent, when we have multiple WP:RS showing that wasn't the case. Also, your assumption is that Steiner was either racist or anti-racist, when in fact his writings are a mixed bag. Again supported by multiple WP:RS. History is to a great deal about empirical fact, rather than logic. And this is generally the problem with Steiner's views about history: those are based upon clairvoyance and lots of speculation, instead of being based upon objectively assessable empirical facts. Or when he did consider empirical facts, he was far from comprehensively applying the historical method, instead he was cherry picking. See the two references about him indulging in pseudohistory. tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
@
Butterfly or Chuang Tzu?: and Rudolf Steiner would plead no contest
—that's what Zander says, not me.
tgeorgescu (
talk)
14:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
The reception of anthroposophy after Steiner's lifetime would seem not to belong in the article, but in Anthroposophy. Any thoughts on this? Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? ( talk) 12:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
The IP from Luxembourg who claims that Steiner wasn't Austrian should make their case here. Also, they should not change verbatim quotes from WP:RS. It's not their privilege. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:29, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
It is true that there is much speculation about the cause of the fire, but a police report is more conclusive than speculation taking place 80 years later. I have added a second reference for it being an act of arson. hgilbert ( talk) 13:03, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
- ...daß weder Kurzschluß noch maschinelle Leitungsdefekte den Brand verschuldet haben können, ist mit fast ziemlicher Sicherheit anzunehmen daß böswilliger Brandstiftung vorliegt.
It is not, as you suggest, "going on the number of sources that say it was arson and those that say it may have been some other cause" It is not, as you say "up to us to determine the most authoritative source(s) and go with that." That would be Original Research. So unless you can demonstrate why the following are NOT reliable published sources then their report that a contrary view exists to the arson theory must be included: Gary Lachman Ibid pp.204-205; Lindenberg Ibid chapter 46, "Der Brand des Goetheanum" pp. 789-797. René Maikowski, Schicksalswege auf der Suche nach dem lebendigen Geist; Publ. Freiburg 1980, pp.59-65: "Der Brand des Goetheanumsalswege auf der Suche nach dem lebendigen Geist; Publ. Freiburg 1980, pp.59-65: "Der Brand des Goetheanum." Colin Wilson, Rudolf Steiner, the man and his vision: an introduction to the life and ideas of the founder of anthroposophy Publ Aquarian Press 1985 p.153. Indeeed neither EPadmirateur nor Hgilbert have yet to provide one reputable source that has said it was unquestionably proved to be arson. Hgilbert keeps referring to the "police report" described in Lindberg I have now obtained a copy of all of the Police Reports which are reproduced in GA 259 Whilst most of them state that the cause is unknown, only one states that it is thought to be arson (this was the preliminary inspectors report made on the 4th January before the body of Ott was discovered and when Ott was assumed to be the arsonist and thought to have disappeared.) Perhaps Hgilbert could provide the exact Lindenberg reference to check this?? The final Judicial report dated 14 February however is absolutely inconclusive.
Solothurnische u. bernische Nachbarschaft Nachträgliches zum Brande des Dornacher Goetheanums Die gerichtliche Untersuchung - Die Versicherungsfrage -o- Solothurn, 14. Februar. Die Untersuchung der Brandursache des Anthroposophentempels von Dornach ist dem Vernehmen nach noch immer nicht abgeschlossen und wird vermutlich überhaupt nie zu einer vollen Abklärung der teilweise mysteriösen Begleitumstände der Feuersbrunst führen. Die verschiedenen Skelettüberreste, die im Schutt aufgefunden worden sind, werden einer genauen gerichtsmedizinischen Begutachtung unterzogen; desgleichen unterlie
The District Commissioner of Dorneck-Thierstein's Report of 22 January 1923 likewise also states that there is no proof of arson and speaks of "all sorts of rumours swirling around."
See GA259 Appendix 7 Bericht [vom 22. Januar 1923] des Oberamtmanns von Dorneck-Thierstein an die Regierung des Kantons Solothurn betreffend den Brand des Goetheanum in Dornach, welcher am 31. Dezember 1922 um 22 lA U h r stattgefunden hat. Brandobjekt: Grundbuch Nr. 2542. Gebäude Nr. 383. Eigentümer: Verein des Goetheanum in Dornach. Mit dem Glockenschlag, der den Anbruch des neuen Jahres verkündete, schlug ob Dornach eine Riesenflamme zum Himmel empor, einer weiten Umgebung den Untergang des Goetheanum verkündend. In der Nacht vom Sylvester auf Neujahr des Jahres 1922 ist das Goetheanum in Dornach ein Raub der Flammen geworden. Der Unterzeichnete begab sich am 1. Januar 1923 früh auf die Brandstätte, wo von dem ehemals gewaltigen Bauwerk nur der von der Hitze an vielen Stellen geborstene Betonunterbau, erfüllt mit brennenden und rauchenden Holzüberresten, noch zu sehen war. Das Betreten und Absuchen der Gebäudereste war erst nach einigen Tagen möglich. Über die Brandursache schwirrten alle möglichen Gerüchte im Lande herum. In gewissen Kreisen der nähern Umgebung von Dornach machte sich eine ziemlich erregte Stimmung gegen die Mitglieder des Vereins des Goetheanum bemerkbar. Es mag sein, daß hiezu der Umstand nicht wenig beigetragen hatte, daß von Dr. Steiner und seinen Leuten selbst eine Untersuchung geführt und die Bedienung der Presse durchgeführt wurde. In einer der ersten Veröffentlichungen wurde die Behauptung aufgestellt, es liege Brandstiftung von außen vor, was die Gegner Dr. Steiners arg in den Harnisch brachte. Die amtliche Untersuchung, die sofort eingesetzt hatte, stellte folgendes fest: Am 31. Dezember 1922 um 17 Uhr fand im Goetheanum eine eurythmische Vorstellung statt, die kurz vor 7 Uhr zu Ende ging. Nach der Vorstellung wurde, wie gewohnt, das ganze Gebäude von den Besuchern entleert, genau kontrolliert und nirgends etwas Verdächtiges bemerkt. Um 8 Uhr begann ein Vortrag von Dr. Steiner, der gegen 10 Uhr beendigt war. Hierauf wurde wieder das ganze Gebäude entleert, von einem Wächter kontrolliert und abgeschlossen. Im Freien wurde das Gebäude von 5 bis 7 Uhr von einem und von 7 Uhr an von zwei Wächtern bewacht. In der Zeit von 7 bis 8 Uhr hielt sich im großen Saale und in ihrem Zimmer im I. Stock des Südflügels, wie gewohnt, Frau Dr. Steiner auf. Ihr fiel nichts auf. Nach der Vorstellung, ca. um 7 Uhr, kam ein Fräulein Wahler [Waller] in ihr Garderobenzimmer, im I.Stock des Südflügels gelegen, und bemerkte, daß der Spiegel, der einige Zeit vorher noch an der Wand hing, zerbrochen auf dem Boden lag; man maß dieser Beobachtung aber wenig Wert bei. Als nach der Leerung, Kontrollierung und Schließung des Gebäudes zwei Wächter auf ihrem Rundgange sich beim Südportal trafen, war es 10 V* Uhr. In diesem Moment roch der eine Wächter Rauch. Sie fanden im Südflügel im III. Stock im sog. weißen Saal starken Rauch hinter den Heizkörpern hervorkommen. Als auf den Alarm der Weckerlinie die Feuerwehrleute des Goetheanum herbeigeeilt waren und man nach dem Feuer suchte, fand man zunächst überall nur Rauch, aber kein Feuer. Es verging wohl eine V* Stunde, bis man endlich im I. Stock über dem Südportal aus den Fugen in der Westwand Rauch hervorquellen sah. Man schlug diese Wand ein und stieß auf das Feuer. Es ist durch mehrere Augenzeugen die Tatsache festgestellt, daß vorher an keinem andern Orte des Gebäudes Feuer war, so daß angenommen werden muß, daß der Brandausbruch im Innern der Westwand über dem Südportal stattgefunden hat. Laut den vorgelegten Plänen bestand die Wand aus den Konstruktionsteilen und innerer und äußerer Doppelverschalung (siehe Skizze). Im Innern der Wand waren somit Hohlräume vorhanden. Durch diese Hohlräume führte ein Frischluftzufuhrkanal aus Blech, der in einem Fenstersturz seinen Anfang nahm und hinter den Heizkörpern im sog. weißen Saal im III. Stockwerk ausmündete. Daher ist es erklärlich, daß in diesem Räume zuerst Rauch bemerkt wurde. Nachdem diese Wand geöffnet worden war, entwickelte sich das Feuer mit großer Schnelligkeit gegen die Kuppeln hin. Als gegen 22 V* Uhr die Feuerwehren von Dornach und Ariesheim und etwas später diejenige von Münchenstein und die Dampfspritze von Basel beim Brandobjekte erschienen waren, war der Aufenthalt im Innern des Gebäudes fast unmöglich geworden, und man mußte sich auf die Bekämpfung des Feuers von außen beschränken. Um 23 Vi Uhr mußte der allgemeine Rückzug der Feuerwehren angeordnet werden, und um 24 Uhr stürzten die Kuppeln ein. In den folgenden Stunden strömte eine solche Hitze aus dem Brandobjekte, daß die in der Nähe stehende Schreinerei in beständiger Gefahr war, und die Feuerwehren mußten ihre ganze Kraft auf die Rettung dieses Gebäudes konzentrieren, was auch gelang. Die Spritzenprämie ist der Feuerwehr Ariesheim auszurichten. Es ging aus der Einvernahme zahlreicher Personen hervor, daß der Brandherd in der oben näher bezeichneten Westwand im I. Stock des Südflügels anzunehmen ist. Wie ist der Brand entstanden? Mit dieser Frage beschäftigte man sich in den ersten Tagen nach dem Brande allgemein, zeitweise auch sehr vorlaut. Sehr nahe lag die Vermutung, daß Kurzschluß in den elektr. Leitungen die Ursache sein könnte. Diese Frage wurde, wie wir Ihnen in unserm Bericht vom 3.Januar mitteilten, mit Bestimmtheit in negativem Sinne entschieden. Im Verlaufe der weitern Untersuchung wurde bekannt, daß der Uhrenmacher Ott in Ariesheim, der seit kurzer Zeit Mitglied des Vereins des Goetheanums war, vermißt wird. Dieser Umstand und die Aussagen einzelner Mitglieder des Vereins des Goetheanum über Warnungen, die Ott geäußert hat, ferner die Feststellung, daß das Feuer im Hohlraum der bezeichneten Wand, wo aber keine elektr. Leitung durchführte, ausgebrochen sein muß, sowie die Tatsache, daß an der Außenseite des Baues in der Nähe des Südportals ein Gerüst stand, mittelst welchem der Ort des Brandausbruches mit Leichtigkeit zu erreichen war, führte zur Vermutung, daß Brandstiftung vorliegen könnte. Spuren einer Brandlegung waren nicht festzustellen, da die mehrfach bezeichnete Wand bis auf den Grund niedergebrannt ist. Der einzige Zugang aus dem Innern des Gebäudes zu den oben bezeichneten Räumen im I. Stock über dem Südportal soll beständig bewacht gewesen sein und der Zutritt nur den Mitgliedern der Gesellschaft gestattet gewesen sein. Die oben erwähnte Spiegelgeschichte könnte mit der Brandstiftung insofern in Beziehung gebracht werden, daß man sich vorstellen könnte, ein durch das wahrscheinlich nicht geschlossene Fenster im Zimmer der Frl. Wahler [Waller] (Eckzimmer im 1. Stock) eingestiegenes Individuum hätte in der Geschwindigkeit den Spiegel heruntergeworfen. Es müßte dies während der Vorstellung vom 31. Dezember von 5 bis 7 Uhr nachm. gewesen sein. Ob Ott der Täter ist? Über diese Zeit ist nämlich sein Alibi nicht einwandfrei festgestellt. Gemäß §64 des Gesetzes betreffend die Gebäude-Brandversicherung veranlaßte der Unterzeichnete am 3. Januar das Einschreiten des Gerichtspräsidenten, der seither die Untersuchung weiterführt. Die weitern Zeugeneinvernahmen haben ergeben, daß Ott vor dem Zusammenbruch der Kuppeln im Kuppelzwischenraum gesehen wurde. Anläßlich der unter Aufsicht der Polizei systematisch durchgeführten Räumungsarbeiten fand man in der Gegend der Bühne die Überreste eines menschlichen Skeletts, und einige Tage später wurde in der Schreinerei auch der Mantel, den Ott am Sylvester getragen hatte, aufgefunden. In Anbetracht, daß sonst niemand vermißt wird, ist es sehr wahrscheinlich, daß Ott beim Brande des Goetheanum umgekommen ist. Die Untersuchung durch den Gerichtspräsidenten ist heute noch nicht abgeschlossen. Am 4. Januar fand durch die lt. Regierungsratsbeschluß Nr. 29 vom 2. Januar 1923 gewählte außerordentliche Kommission die Abschätzung des Schadens statt. Das eingeäscherte Gebäude war für Fr. 3'500>000.- brandversichert. Die Überreste wurden auf Fr. 317'000- gewertet, so daß der Schaden Fr. 3'183'000- beträgt. Gegen diese Abschätzung wurde vom Eigentümer, der Verein des Goetheanum, innert nützlicher Frist (abgelaufen den 19. Januar) keine Einsprache erhoben.
Breitenbach, den 22. Januar 1923. Für das Oberamt Dorneck-Thierstein Der Oberamtmann: gez. Haberthür
Even Steiner said he only "assumes" it was arson (it must be so, he says since the fire originated from outside the wall of the Goetheanum) But this is an error - he later corrects this to say that it was actually started inside a double walled inner wall in by the South portal of the White Room - as the investigator's report concludes.
Having firstly accused the Catholics and the Freemasons (pointing to a prediction by the astrologer Elsbeth Ebertin) Shortly thereafter Steiner says that Ott is the culprit - he concludes this on the basis that Ott had disappeared also because Ott has money problems and because Ott was behaving suspiciously. Indeed Steiner says (the same day in an interview with National-Zeitung see GA259) that Ott is probably over the border by now and that it is impossible that any body could now be found in the ashes. Of course Ott's body was found shortly thereafter having fallen through the collapsed floor. Later eye witnesses (reported in Maikowski) claim that Ott had been one of the most fervent of the firefighters so that blows up the whole Ott theory.
1.) I am not familiar with any lecture in GA274 or GA259 that claims to have found straw or kerosene. A 'cooking apparatus' which was used by the Eurythmists for making tea was found on 7 January (in the room where they changed which was close to the source of the fire.) There was talk of a mirror which was found toppled and broken: Steiner says this broken mirror was evidence of arson - that someone climbed a ladder on the outside of the Goetheanum and punched a hole in the outer wall (at about 6 in the evening when the fire is said to have started and whilst Steiner is lecturing inside!!!) Steiner says this explains the toppled mirror. Steiner does change from "assuming arson" in January 1923 to May 1924 in a Paris lecture when he says it was "definitely arson" - but this seems to be unproven and speculative.
2.) Yes I agree that Steiner says several times in interviews in the immediate days after the fire, that it could not have been a short-circuit fault. He claims to be able to 'prove' this because all the lights were on. He also says 'experts' checked the heating mechanics and found no fault. He also claims the electrical cables were in steel conduits and fire proof. These assertions are repeated in at least one of the police reports.
But Steiner's position is clearly stated in my edit which says:
The Goetheanum was destroyed by fire on New Year's Eve 1922/23. Because of the level of hostility against him, Steiner assumed arson and this was stated in a police report. In his first lecture on January 1, 1923, the day after the fire (GA 259) Steiner pointed directly to "two main sources of irreconcilable animosity against the Goetheanum": the Roman Catholic Association in Dornach and the Freemasons.
Neither EPadmirateur nor Hgilbert have yet to articulate why the equally justifiable position described by 4 commentators should not be stated. Masteryorlando ( talk) 09:22, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Nowhere does that report come close to saying "probably arson" Im Verlaufe der weitern Untersuchung wurde bekannt, daß der Uhrenmacher Ott in Ariesheim, der seit kurzer Zeit Mitglied des Vereins des Goetheanums war, vermißt wird. Dieser Umstand und die Aussagen einzelner Mitglieder des Vereins des Goetheanum über Warnungen, die Ott geäußert hat, ferner die Feststellung, daß das Feuer im Hohlraum der bezeichneten Wand, wo aber keine elektr leitung durchführte, ausgebrochen sein muß, sowie die Tatsache, daß an der Außenseite des Baues in der Nähe des Südportals ein Gerüst stand, mittelst welchem der Ort des Brandausbruches mit Leichtigkeit zu erreichen war, führte zur Vermutung, daß Brandstiftung vorliegen könnte. Spuren einer Brandlegung waren nicht festzustellen, da die mehrfach bezeichnete Wand bis auf den Grund niedergebrannt ist.
Sehr nahe lag die Vermutung, daß Kurzschluß in den elektr. It then goes on to discount reports of an electrical fault saying that the Goetheanum Association said there were no electrical cables in the area and for that reason this has been excluded... Diese Frage wurde, wie wir Ihnen in unserm Bericht vom 3.Januar mitteilten, mit Bestimmtheit in negativem In saying it is "probably arson" you also entirely exclude the 14 February report which says: Die Untersuchung der Brandursache des Anthroposophentempels von Dornach ist dem Vernehmen nach noch immer nicht abgeschlossen und wird vermutlich überhaupt nie zu einer vollen Abklärung der teilweise mysteriösen Begleitumstände der Feuersbrunst führen.
(a) inaccurate (see above) and (b) concluding that because no other alternative is proven it must "probaby be arson" would constitute original research and synthesis. The Commissioner's report makes no such conclusion.
Über die Brandursache schwirrten alle möglichen Gerüchte im Lande herum. In gewissen Kreisen der nähern Umgebung von Dornach machte sich eine ziemlich erregte Stimmung gegen die Mitglieder des Vereins des Goetheanum bemerkbar. Es mag sein, daß hiezu der Umstand nicht wenig beigetragen hatte, daß von Dr. Steiner und seinen Leuten selbst eine Untersuchung geführt und die Bedienung der Presse durchgeführt wurde. In einer der ersten Veröffentlichungen wurde die Behauptung aufgestellt, es liege Brandstiftung von außen vor, was die Gegner Dr. Steiners arg in den Harnisch brachte.
Der Uhrenmacher Ott in Ariesheim, ... vermißt wird. Dieser Umstand und die Aussagen einzelner Mitglieder des Vereins des Goetheanum über Warnungen, die Ott geäußert hat, ferner die Feststellung, daß das Feuer im Hohlraum der bezeichneten Wand, wo aber keine elektr. Leitung durchführte, ausgebrochen sein muß, sowie die Tatsache, daß an der Außenseite des Baues in der Nähe des Südportals ein Gerüst stand, mittelst welchem der Ort des Brandausbruches mit Leichtigkeit zu erreichen war, führte zur Vermutung, daß Brandstiftung vorliegen könnte. Spuren einer Brandlegung waren nicht festzustellen, da die mehrfach bezeichnete Wand bis auf den Grund niedergebrannt ist.
The report makes no such conclusion that you have asserted that it was "probably arson". Masteryorlando ( talk) 20:30, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Given this information, the conclusion of the police report is probably the only authoritative source here. I think that source document is contained in GA259, p. 787 (I don't have the full text, probably you have it) but in part it states:
- ...daß weder Kurzschluß noch maschinelle Leitungsdefekte den Brand verschuldet haben können, ist mit fast ziemlicher Sicherheit anzunehmen daß böswilliger Brandstiftung vorliegt.
- which translates roughly to "that neither a short-circuit fault nor mechanical line (conduit?) defects could have caused the fire, it accepted with near certainty that malicious arson occurred."
- Given this excerpt, I believe the police report concluded "with near certainty" that arson had happened and they ruled out electrical short circuits and other possible causes. Therefore I think that the reference should change to the GA 259 and the clear statement that it was arson should be retained. If you can provide authoritative quotes from these sources that contradicts this, then let's see them here on the talk page.
- Nach Ausschaltung dieser Möglichkeit und nachdem alle Anzeichen darauf hinweisen, daß Ott geflüchtet ist, und zwar, wie es heißt, über die Grenze, war es gegeben, Ott, dessen Verschwinden höchst merkwürdig ist, nachzuforschen und ihn zu verfolgen, da die bis jetzt einvernommenen Zeugen schwerwiegende Verdachtsgründe gegen ihn eröffnet haben, während nach anderen Richtungen hin absolut kein Verdacht vorliegt.
- Nachdem durch Zeugen und Expertisen unzweideutig festgestellt worden ist, daß weder Kurzschluß noch maschinelle Leitungsdefekte den Brand verschuldet haben können, Ist mit fast ziemlicher Sicherheit anzunehmen, daß vorliegt.
- Böswillige Brandstiftung
- Auch die amtliche Untersuchung scheint nun zu dieser von Dr. Steiner bereits am Brandtag behaupteten Annahme gekommen zu sein. Nach ihm, der sich doch wohl in der Konstruktion des Baues am besten auskennen wird, muß der Brand in der Zeit von 5-7 Uhr abends gelegt worden sein.
The police inspector then closes the letter (p.752/753) saying that members of the Anthroposophical Society are frightened for their lives. The Inspector says, however, that there is absolutely no evidence that anyone has planned violence against them and that "Pogroms in the Swiss countryside are not common practice." That letter in GA259 follows the preliminary police report issued the previous day (3 Jan) (p.750 of GA259) That report repeats that the Goetheanum's engineer and electricians have said it cannot be an electrical fault, that "the Anthroposophic society view is that Ott is the culprit" and that "the Anthroposophic society" say that Ott "was the tool of a certain group." It says "since in interrogrations many witnesses suspected arson" ("Einvernahme der Zeugen starke Verdachtsmomente fur Brandstiftung vorliegen",) the coroner has forwarded the files for investigation.
TRANS: Expert witnesses have established with near certainty that it was not a short circuit or fault in the wiring. Then there is a headline
Here is the rest: I suggest that you reformat and clean up the text you have entered (here and elsewhere on this page). I'm tired of cleaning up your comments after you. Then we can discuss your points. If you want to be taken seriously, you'll have to do a little extra work. Again, I strongly suggest getting a mentor. Sorry to be so blunt, EPadmirateur ( talk) 06:07, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
The lead should be concise and give a survey of the subject; see WP:Lead section. Could I suggest that changes are proposed and agree on before being introduced? hgilbert ( talk) 22:54, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Yes I agree - the German section or "branch" was a "branch" of London. I said this: "Steiner went on to become President of its German Branch in 1902 and Arch Warden of its Esoteric School" (I do however disagree that the German section was "completely independent." Since it was a branch of London it was NOT independent. Just look at the terms of the Theosophical Society charters...) Re comment "[this] is covered in the text." We are discussing the fact that the lead summary reduces Steiner's 12 year involvement as President of the German branch of the TS and Arch Warden of its Esoteric School to merely a "link to Theosophy". This is absurdly reductionist to the point that it is in my view plain and simple dishonesty. Equally the lead ignores the fact (crucial to understanding Steiners life) that Steiner was intitially opposed to Theosophy (see his 1897 article http://www.philosophyoffreedom.com/node/4236 . Equally the lead ignores the absolutely crucial fact (as he acknowledged) that Steiner's initiation was as a Rosicrucian. "A survey of the subject" required by Wikipedia for the lead to this biography cannot, in my view, omit these facts without displaying very very significant bias. Wikipedia requires the lead to "summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies" although Steiner is one of the most controversial figures this lead is entirely sanitized of that and entirely biased in consequence. To rectify these crucial ommissions I suggest:
Although he had been initially opposed to the Theosophical Society in Vienna in the late 1880's, Steiner went on to become President of its German Section from 1902 to 1913 and Arch Warden of its Esoteric School.From within the Theosophical Society, Steiner developed, out of his Rosicrucian initiation, a comprehensive step-by-step path to gnosis. He called this esoteric and occult spiritual philosophy Anthroposophy Although he claimed he had never been a member, Steiner was expelled from the Theosophical Society in 1913 for a breach of its Constitution. He went on to assist in the formation of the Anthroposophical Society founded by his wife in 1913 as well as an Esoteric Occult School of Spiritual Science. Following schisms within the movement, Steiner refounded the General Anthroposophical Society over Christmas 1923 describing it at that time as "a service of the gods, a divine service".
Obviously each of these 9 facts will be backed by reliable reference
1, Opposed to Thesophy - his Magazin fur Literatur article on Theosophy 2, president of it German Section and Arch warden - the usual biographers already cited 3, Rosicrucian initiation: Schure,Barr document, Marie Steiner, Prokofieff, Rudolf Steiner Autobiography "Rosicrucian directive "to bring spirit into the world" http://books.google.com/books?id=bWXSwDrPNNAC&pg=PR23&dq=schure+steiner+rosicrucian&hl=en&ei=zilLTaXnJ4O88gafnInvDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=schure%20steiner%20rosicrucian&f=false 4, Step by Step path to gnosis - Steiner, GAS Principles. 5, esoteric and occult - Steiner, Constitution of School of Spirtual Science, History of School of Spiritual Science, Steiner assertion to Besant 6. claim of non-membership - usual biographies (already included) 7. Expulsion from TS for breach of consitutuion - refusing membership to members of OSIE - TS contemporary documents 8. Founding of AS - usual biographies 9. Refounding of GAS - usual biographies Prokofieff and Steiner Books publications on Christmas Conference
If you would like to debate why any of these facts are not crucial to a survey of Steiner's life I would be happy to consider argument. It is however becoming increasingly clear that there is very signicant Anthroposphical Society inspired bias at work here and that your edits are in support of that bias intending to present a distorted 'sanitized' version of Steiner as a secular and uncontroversial academic rather than a more neutral description of his life. May I point to: The Arbitration Committee has placed this article on probation. Editors of this are expected to remove all original research and other unverifiable information, including all controversial information sourced in Anthroposophy related publications. It is anticipated that this process may result in deletion or merger of some articles due to failure of verification by third party peer reviewed sources. If it is found, upon review by the Arbitration Committee, that any of the principals in this arbitration continue to edit in an inappropriate and disruptive way editing restrictions may be imposed. Review may be at the initiative of any member of the Arbitration Committee on their own motion or upon petition by any user to them. For further information see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Waldorf education. For the arbitration committee, Thatcher131 23:53 Masteryorlando ( talk) 22:38, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the quote in the lead supposedly referenced as Robert A. McDermott, "Philosophy and Evolution of Consciousness", in James Ogilvy, Revisioning Philosophy, pp. 279-280 Not only is this reference inadmissable under the terms of the arbitration since Mcdermott is part of the Anthroposophical movement - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._McDermott where he is described as "co-founder of The Owen Barfield Graduate School of Sunbridge College" but more crucially the quote bears no relation to the Mcdermott passage referenced. In the lead Mcdermott supposedly says: "His philosophical work of these years, which he termed spiritual science, sought to provide a connection between the cognitive path of Western philosophy and the inner and spiritual needs of the human being." Not only does Macdermott say absolutely no such thing in the reference but instead the nearest I can find is that Macdermott actually says : "I [Robert McDermott, the author] have come to be convinced of the need for this approach to philosophy - of transforming philosophy into Spiritual Science" Mcdermott then goes on to explain Spiritual Science in the footnote quoting Steiner "Steiner writes 'There slumber in every human being faculties by means of which he (or she) can acquire for himself a knowledge of higher worlds. Mystics, Gnostics, Theosophists - all speak of a world of soul and spirit which for them is just as real as the world we see with our physical eyes and touch with our physical hands.' To therefore paraphrase Mcdermott as saying that Steiner "sought to provide a connection between the cognitive path of Western philosophy and the inner and spiritual needs of the human being" is to distort both Steiner and Mcdermott completely. Masteryorlando ( talk) 22:32, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=7VuiPwuFznEC&lpg=PA207&ots=JPHf_GQqd3&dq=buddha%20crucified%20mars&pg=PA207#v=onepage&q&f=false http://www.rudolfsteinerweb.com/Rudolf_Steiner_and_Science.php http://books.google.com/books?id=7_WwVFntyFwC&lpg=PP1&ots=xha2EhYtx_&dq=guenon%20theosophy&pg=PA194#v=onepage&q=guenon%20theosophy&f=false
It appears that some of the comments/commentary have gotten removed from the talk page, without being archived. Please be careful. The removal or refactoring of the comments of others is highly discouraged. And as a way to keep conversation going, if one wishes to remove something said either use strike out, or mark that you removed something (comment refactored or similar type note). It helps to keep the discussion orderly, so others can follow it and add to it in a way that makes sense. -- Rocksanddirt ( talk) 18:15, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
This article is supposed to be a short biography, of the sort you find in an encyclopedia. A book lenghth one is beyond our scope. All the various things and various thoughts that Steiner got involved with do not need to be described in depth. There are lots of articles on en.wikipedia about them (waldorf education, biodynamic farming, etc), this article doesn't need any details, just a link to the already existing articles. -- Rocksanddirt ( talk) 18:26, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
It seems like overkill to mention every aspect of Steiner's work twice in the lead. It seems sensible to call him a philosopher, social thinker, and esotericist, and perhaps an architect (given the public exposure and critical appreciation of the buildings he shaped) - but should he really be identified as a poet, except in the sense that everyone who writes verse is a poet? I suggest that we identify people with their primary accomplishments - I would not call myself an explorer, even though I have explored a few places, or a woodsman, though I've cut down many a tree. In any case, the next paragraph details more of his accomplishments aside from his primary identity. hgilbert ( talk) 14:18, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
I have mentioned this before but the Swiss website astro.com has Steiner's correct date of birth, why are we still showing 2 dates? http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Steiner%2C_Rudolf Veryscarymary ( talk) 18:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
I've been a little Bold and swapped two sections; most people probably are more interested in the practical side than the philosophical, so I've put them in this order. In addition, the philosophy leads over more smoothly into the following sections of the article. If someone objects, we can swap it back, however. hgilbert ( talk) 17:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
An arbitration proceeding about this article ruled that direct quotes from Steiner - in fact, anthroposophic sources generally - could only be used in regard to noncontroversial themes. It doesn't help that the quotes were sourced to the website of a user who has been specifically banned from editing this article, rather than to a Verifiable source. Incidentally, when Steiner founded the Anthroposophic Society in 1913 two of the three people he chose to lead it happened to be Jewish (Adolf Arenson and Carl Unger...the third of the group was Steiner's wife, Maria Steiner-von Sivers). hgilbert ( talk) 00:03, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
There are two sections about Steiner's impulse toward social reform. One is part of the biography section (Social reform) and the other part of the "Breadth of activity" section. A general introduction to Steiner's thought seems clearly to belong in the latter; biographical material in the former. Recent edits have confused this distinction. One result is that there's repetition of the same ideas in the two sections. I'd like to sort this out. hgilbert ( talk) 00:15, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
The volume by Villeneuve, Rudolf Steiner: The British Connection, is half hagiography, half speculation. I'm not sure I'd include this in the bibliography; what are the reasons for doing so? hgilbert ( talk) 23:36, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
First, Villeneuve's volume is in the section headed 'Further reading' which does not purport to be listing books in the customary sense of sources used in the article (or other work) to which it is appended. It contains its own select bibliography in that sense.
Second, it is not properly characterised as hagiography. It is thoroughly documented, indeed mostly quotation of primary sources, which have evidently been carefully checked and compared. (For example, note 21 'The historical lack of interest in Britain for researches into colour of a kind which contest Newtonian doctrine was made strikingly clear to the present writer in 2010 when consulting in the Bodleian library in Oxford University its copy of Dr Joseph Reade's book quoted by Goethe in this passage, "Experimental Outlines for a new theory of colours, light and vision, with critical remarks on Sir Isaac Newton's opinions (1816). Its pages were still uncut.' (See also the writer's Preface, p.2, para. beginning 'In this regard...')
It contains much information about the subject, Rudolf Steiner, not otherwise available easily (or at all), including letters of Steiner translated into English, and Steiner on Goethe, and is at least as informative and useful as other books in the list for "further reading" to expand, supplement and complement what the article purports to be about.
Third, to the extent that there is some speculation (which would not be well suited to an encyclopaedia article), it is very obvious, can readily be distinguished and does not detract from the primary and informative matter.
The work makes good the writer's claim in the Preface to open up the larger topic of Steiner's relation to natural science as a whole 'highlighting the polarity and tension -- ultimately for Steiner a creative one -- between on the one hand the Goethean view of science arising from Middle Europe and on the other those different scientific attitudes emanating from Western Europe which may gnerally be described as Baconian'. Qexigator ( talk) 08:40, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Seems that a good majority of quoted references are an alias for you? Is this correct??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.78.84.237 ( talk) 05:23, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
There were several errors in the wording and actual URL references to documents at the Rudolf Steiner Archive. I have made the corrections to eliminate several redirections of links, and to clarify what exactly is at the Archive. The elibrarian ( talk) 17:45, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
This link: Rudolf Steiner at Fine Arts Presentations features the artworks of the good Doctor, as well as a directory for Portraits and for the Goetheanum. I will be adding a new directory for his Blackboard Drawings. Does the community believe these additional links in the External Links section would enhance this document? The elibrarian ( talk) 17:55, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
As edited by Hgilbert at 12:11, 15 August 2012. This revision to Qexigator's fails adequately to balance or compare the unsourced assertion that Steiner considered PoF to be "his most important work". In the Preface to ToK, dated Nov. 1923, Steiner's own words (O.D.Wannamaker's trans.) were "Now that I again turn my attention to [ToK], it seems to me to be also the foundation and justification, as a theory of knowledge, for all that I have asserted since [sc. up to Nov. 1923]." In the next sentence he states in a few words exactly what he means (not some other party's paraphrase): "It speaks of an essential nature of knowledge which opens the way from the sense world to a world of spirit." It may be that at the same time (or later) Steiner said in truth that he considered PoF to be "his most important work", but surely the ordinary reader relying on Wikipedia for information deserves a better presentation of these two assertions than Hgilbert's revision. Qexigator ( talk) 13:35, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your response. Yes, the two works are closely related, but Steiner took more care than most to say what he meant about each, in ways that may be lost on some readers, perhaps due to translation or the reader's/ hearer's pov, or lack of attentiveness. For instance, those who know of S.O.Prokofieff's reputation and work will be able to judge for themselves how far to rely on it. More to the point, does he or anyone else source this particular assertion about PoF to Steiner himself: when and where? (I have seen his book but do not have it to hand so cannot check what appears on p.460 of the work cited.)
I do not propose to tinker further with this, but to my mind your revision-
is still not sufficient to repair destroying the import of my earlier edit, and its place in the text-
If I could I would have checked the 1923 Preface with the German from which the translation was made. I remain of the view that paraphrasing risks misrepresenting an author who himself has made a habit of using his own words with care, and too often loses the very point which the author was actually making. Qexigator ( talk) 22:07, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Further to above, I now see the following printed on the unnumbered page after the Contents page of Anhroposophy and the Philosophy of Freedom by S.O.Prokofieff (trans. fom German, 2009)-
These have been widely disseminated for years, as has the 1923 edition of ToK. It is easy to see he speaks/ writes of PoF otherwise than he does of ToK. Qexigator ( talk) 23:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
For those more closely concerned with the circumstances of the republication, the author's Preface was dated November 1923 in both the first edition which appeared in December 1923 and in the second and final edition which was corrected and seen through the press by the author and published in 1924. The English translation by O.D.Wanamaker was from the second 1924 edition.
The revision of 19:06, 15 August retains the assertion that in ToK Steiner set forth the foundation and justification for much of his later work, in contradiction to Steiner's 1923 Preface, and remains without supporting citation or other explanation. The English translation unequivocally states "all" not "much". Qexigator ( talk) 18:50, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
The text now shows the distinction between ToK and PoF:
This both avoids misinforming the more casual reader and lets the more attentive reader recognise the relationship of these two works from their author's own point of view. Qexigator ( talk) 09:28, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
If you look at the Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Waldorf_education#Remedies section, the explicit point is
When this was discussed with User:Fred_Bauder it was clarified that all quotations from Rudolf Steiner lectures and books should be omitted. The rationale was stated in the Findings of Fact:
I see two issues over the inclusion of a citation to Steiner's works over gnomes:
Nonetheless, referencing a non-anthroposophical work on the subject published by a reliable source would provide a considerably more solid basis for inclusion in a balanced way. hgilbert ( talk) 02:46, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
A recent edit to this section removed cited material and replaced it with uncited material. I have tried to merge the best of both worlds. What is left of the new material is "The concept of the Christ through Anthroposophy requires continual self-transformation, knowledge and a sense of devotion. It encompasses a wide range of understanding of all religions and includes the course of human development within this understanding." I'm not sure how this fits into this section. Any thoughts? hgilbert ( talk) 01:20, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
The source cited states that the loss of the Goetheanum affected Steiner's health. What justifies removing text cited to a RS? hgilbert ( talk) 03:48, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
This article appears to whitewash, no pun intended, the racist beliefs of Steiner as if they were a mere product of his time. Why not include some actual quotes from Steiner concerning race:
“On one side we find the black race, which is earthly at most. If it moves to the West, it becomes extinct. We also have the yellow race, which is in the middle between earth and the cosmos. If it moves to the East, it becomes brown, attaches itself too much to the cosmos, and becomes extinct. The white race is the future, the race that is spiritually creative.”
“The Jews have a great gift for materialism, but little for recognition of the spiritual world.”
“Negroes” are “decadent" and “completely cut themselves off from the spiritual world”
“[I]f we give these Negro novels to pregnant [white] women to read, then it won’t even be necessary for Negroes to come to Europe in order for mulattos to appear. Simply through the spiritual effects of reading Negro novels, a multitude of children will be born in Europe that are completely gray, that have mulatto hair, that look like mulattos!”
"Today's red and black races descend from abnormal humans and have not participated in the evolution led by whites"
“If you look at pictures of the old American Indians the process of ossification is evident in the decline of this race ... [A] representative of these old American Indians still preserves a memory of that great Atlantean civilization [i.e., the civilization of Atlantis] which could not adapt itself to later evolution ... The Atlantean had not assimilated all that the Venus, Mercury, Mars and Jupiter Spirits [i.e., gods] brought about in the East, to whom we owe all the civilizations which reached their zenith in Europe ... The descendant of the brown race did not participate in this development.”
https://sites.google.com/site/waldorfwatch/steiners-racism
Smiloid ( talk) 09:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
If there aren't sources acceptable by the terms of the arbitration proceeding, I suggest removing the tag from this section. hgilbert ( talk) 21:29, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
It is factually correct that Steiner was racist by definition of the word, a belief that some races are superior to others.
See definitions of racism http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism
Smiloid ( talk) 10:52, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
This category has just been added, but there is no material in the text to support it. hgilbert ( talk) 13:41, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categorization#Articles says: Categorization must also maintain a neutral point of view. Categorizations appear on article pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial; if the category's topic is likely to spark controversy, then a list article (which can be annotated and referenced) is probably more appropriate.
A central concept used in categorising articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define[1] the subject as having—such as nationality or notable profession (in the case of people), type of location or region (in the case of places), etc. For example, here: "Caravaggio, an Italian artist of the Baroque movement ...", Italian, artist, and Baroque may all be considered to be defining characteristics of the subject Caravaggio. A category embodies one or more defining characteristic—how this is achieved in practice is described in the following sections.
Reliable sources do not commonly and consistently define Steiner as anything like a pseudoscientist. They often mention this question as a controversial, but the above clearly states that categories should generally be uncontroversial. Please explain how this categorization satisfies the above standard. hgilbert ( talk) 23:49, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
It applies both ways? I don't think so. There is noone here who's job is contingent on the rejection Steiner's teachings. I think Tgeorgescu has demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt that Steiner's work as regards to science is pseudoscientific. IRWolfie- ( talk) 12:47, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
And thus these sources should be cited in the article, as we all agree.
Wikipedia's categories are not meant to assert an opinion about a topic, however, even if this opinion can be sourced to a number of reliable sources, but rather to refer to "essential—defining—characteristics of a topic" as WP:Categorization repeatedly emphasizes. As can be seen by browsing any standard biographical source (see here for some of these), no such source considers "pseudoscience" to be even relevant or important, much less an essential or defining aspect of who Steiner was. hgilbert ( talk) 17:08, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
This issue was taken to the RSN ( permanent link) and after extensive discussion, primarily between the disputants, but including comments from 4-5 neutral editors, when asked for a summary conclusion, noticeboard participants responded with the following: hgilbert ( talk) 11:44, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Precisely, and Britannica's characterization of all three of these figures is exemplary. Feel free to quote Britannica's article on any of these figures in a Wikipedia article. HGilbert ( talk) 22:48, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
"The heart is not a pump: A refutation of the pressure propulsion premise of heart function," Frontier Perspectives, Fall/Winter, 1995;5(1):15-24 (Frontier Perspectives is published by The Center For Frontier Sciences at Temple University in Philadelphia. It is an "anything goes" forum for crank science. A paper by a group of Steiner disciples. The lead author is listed as being from the Rudolph Steiner Research Center at Royal Oak, Michigan. Others are from various medical schools. This paper seems to be crank science based upon the fact that "in 1920, Steiner, of the Goetheanum in Switzerland had pointed out in lectures to medical doctors that the heart was not a pump...but that the blood was propelled with its own biological momentum.")
— William T. Jarvis, Ph.D., Anthroposophical Medicine
The level of detail should be appropriate for a fourth level subsection of a very large article. Do we really need to know where ensembles still perform these dramas? That's probably something that should be reserved for a sub-article. HGilbert ( talk) 01:54, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
The following have been removed from the Infobox and would have to be referenced in the article to be restored: HGilbert ( talk) 16:14, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Eduard von Hartmann, Max Stirner,
Hugo Bergmann, Alan Chadwick, Rudolf Hauschka, Bernard Lievegoed, Karl König, Brian Goodwin, Henri Bortoft
What is there in the article to support the qualifier "cultural"? The link goes to a one liner which does little more than cite a work published in 2005, with a blurb to the effect that its author, Morton White, has gone beyond Quine's dictum that philosophy of science is philosophy enough, and is proposing that it should contain the word "culture" in place of "science." Thus, it is untrue to state that Steiner "gained initial recognition as a ... cultural philosopher", a term that was not current at the time, and has not come into general currency today. Qexigator ( talk) 17:04, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Given that the word "spiritual" is in the article, should it be made clearer whether this is being used in one or more of its particular meanings? Or should it be left open to readers to make their own guesses or inferences? Editors may be aware that Anthroposophy is mentioned in the "Contemporary spirituality" section of the Spirituality article, and is one of its "See also"s. Spiritual (disambig) links to Wiktionary "spiritual", which offers the following: [12]
There is an inline link to Anthroposophy in the "Metaphysical and metaphorical uses" section of Spirit, but no mention at Spirit world (Spiritualism). --17:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC) correction Qexigator ( talk) 20:14, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
The link, both verbally in the text and to the Wikipedia article, appears to be circular and lacking an external source, and unless supported is due for removal. Steiner discussed Dilthey at some length in The Riddles of Philosophy. His account of Dilthey's writings (as of others discussed in the same work) is respectful but critical and suggests, not that Steiner was "influenced" by Dilthey, but that there was some partial but distinctly limited concurrence of Dilthey's philosophy with Steiner's. Steiner comments on Dilthey and Eucken that their mode of conception leads to "no means of cognition that could guide the soul or the self-conscious ego beyond what can be experienced in connection with the body". Dilthey's works among others are listed in the Introduction to Steiner's Truth and Science (the doctoral dissertation) as "concerned with the theory of cognition in general". [13] If mention of Dilthey is to be retained, let it be for his advocacy of the term Geisteswissenschaft (literally, "spiritual science") by pointing out that other terms such as "social science" and "cultural sciences" are equally one-sided and that the human spirit is the central phenomenon from which all others are derived and analyzable (per his article). Qexigator ( talk) 19:10, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
The "breadth of activity" section addresses practical initiatives that were established. Steiner lectured on many themes, including astronomy, but talking about something is different than doing something about it. I suggest that the "Astronomy" sub-section be removed from this location. (I doubt it should be placed anywhere, except perhaps in a sub-article that could be a list of every theme he ever spoke about. Astronomy simply does not stand out from countless other themes he addressed.) HGilbert ( talk) 16:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
What is there in the article to support the qualifier "esoteric"? The disciplined practice of meditational techniques, or mental exercises, is not necessarily "esoteric". Steiner wrote and spoke on many topics including esotericism, founded and led an esoteric school and when founding the Anthroposophical Society in 1923, let it be known that its founding "vorstand" had an esoteric character. In his work The Riddles of Philosophy Presented in an Outline of Its History published in 1914, Steiner mentioned that his earlier work The Philosophy of Freedom (1894) was intended to give the philosophical foundations for what had been outlined in his yet earlier work, based on his doctoral dissertation, Truth and Science (1892). In Riddles [14] Steiner explicitly made clear that what he was proposing was "a continuation of the scientific way of thinking provided it is inwardly experienced in the right way". At no later time did he repudiate the content of the works here mentioned for the sake of "esotericism" or otherwise. Qexigator ( talk) 17:08, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Any doubt whether Steiner was a philosopher and as such primarily concerned with the traditional and fundamental questions of philosophers, from earliest times to the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, about epistemology and ethics, can be resolved by attention to his Preface to the 1923 editionof The Riddles of Philosophy Presented in an Outline of Its History, as well as by reference to the last editions of his other philosophical writings published in his lifetime. Qexigator ( talk) 07:08, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Agreed, the now current ("simpler") version [15] suffices in this opening paragraph and sits well there, while more about that is given later. Qexigator ( talk) 06:01, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Please note: the question is about clarity in the use of the English language, particularly in the context of the article. Steiner was a philosopher, whether or not there is a box with the name "esoteric philosophy" for something else. Hanegraaff's "Dictionary of Gnosis & Western Esotericism" is not about philosophers in the usual and traditional sense which includes Spinoza, Hegel, Fichte, von Hartmann, Brentano, Husserl and others of that sort with whom Steiner's name as philosopher is connected. Qexigator ( talk) 22:55, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
1. Occult Physiology. One of the key elements of Steiner’s anthroposophy is a spiritual or occult [→ occult/occultism] physiology of man.
— Dictionary of Gnosis & Western Esotericism, p. 82
The question is, first, about the use of the term "esoteric philosophy" in plain English for the information of the ordinary reader, and in the context it has been given in the article, whether or not there may be some who would, mistakenly (as explained above), infer that Steiner was not a philosopher, but was an "esoteric philosopher" according to a work by a professor in a university in the Netherlands (quoted above). Secondly, the question is about sources, with relevance to notable philosophers such as those discussed by Steiner in his work "The Riddles of Philosophy" first published in 1914, later with the author's prefaces of 1918 and 1923. Qexigator ( talk) 07:08, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
In 1918, long after Steiner changed his philosophical for his esoteric career, Steiner issued a second edition of this work, which substantially differed from the original one.
— Cees Leijenhorst, Dictionary of Gnosis & Western Esotericism, p. 1086
The placing of esoteric schools within the "Spiritual research" section is unexplained by the text, and is not self-evident, nor does a Wikipedia search for "Esoteric school" help. It has been in the article a long time, from September 2006. [20] Privately, this is not a problem to me, but could some copyedit clarify? Would it suffice simply to put it under a subheading of its own? Qexigator ( talk) 18:19, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Given that the divisions of the School of Spiritual Science created in 1923 are called "Sections" in the published English language translation of the record of the proceedings (printed and published in the USA), and that the same term has continued to be used from then to the present day, it should be used in the article with reference to that event, in the absence of good reason otherwise. Qexigator ( talk) 21:45, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Information about the 1923 founding of the School occurs in two places, with some repetition: under "The Anthroposophical Society and its cultural activities" and under "Spiritual research". Should it be in one or the other, or at least avoid repetition? Qexigator ( talk) 23:31, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
This has been blank for some time. Is there reason to retain the title? Qexigator ( talk) 11:06, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
According to the source cited in the current version (which stems from an earlier version of June 2006), [27] Steiner had concerned himself with Fichte before he became acquainted with the agent of "the Master". Is the text reconcilable with the citation? Should one or other be rectified? The section "Early spiritual experiences" ends with this: "According to Steiner, he also introduced Steiner to a person that Steiner only identified as a “Master”, and who had a great influence on Steiner's subsequent development, in particular directing him to study Fichte's philosophy. [1] But the "GA 262" refers to a document Steiner wrote for Schuré in 1907, in which the opening paragraph contains this: "At fifteen I studied Kant intensively, and before going on to college... I immersed myself in Fichte and Schelling... I gained complete understanding of the concept of time... guided totally by the spiritual life...the precondition of spiritual clairvoyance. Then came acquaintance with the agent of the Master." Qexigator ( talk) 18:29, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
+ see quoted text here [28]. -- Qexigator ( talk) 18:33, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
+ ... this was mentioned on the Talk page in June 2006 [29] Qexigator ( talk) 21:39, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
Two questions on the insertion of the term "Spiritual Scientist" at the end of the first sentence [33]- 1_Why are caps used for this but not for any of "philosopher, social reformer, architect, esotericist"? 2_Is the term sufficiently supported in the sources? My comment: the info box has caps for this with a link to Anthroposophy via a redirect, but a Wikipedia search gives non-caps with reference to Steiner in Gary Lachman and Integral (spirituality), and without mention of Steiner in Arthur Eddington. -- Qexigator ( talk) 05:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Spiritual Scientist: I think the term deserves to be part of the description, as that is the essential characteristic of his work, and must be mentioned even if it is not used often. My mistake for the caps.
The Philosophy of Freedom: Again, HAS to be referred to right in the beginning as it is the foundation for all the later work.
One-sided mysticism AND science: keeps it consistent with what is described later in the section Spiritual Science. Mentioning only one of them is inaccurate. Mention both or neither. Besides, the approach to mysticism wasn't vague by definition. Mystics gained clarity of some specific experiences as opposed to the totality of experience, hence "one-sided".
Advocated ... etc: No, this is one-sided in itself... "advocated" makes it sound as if it is an agitation for a particular point of view. No legalistic notions fit here.
... explicitly spiritual component: It is not an ADDITION of a component, it is an outgrowth of it, or an evolution, the very thing Goethe emphasized. The phrase makes it appear as if spirituality was piggy-backed onto philosophy, which is not a correct description. The last sentence ought to show how this approach differs or extends that of Goethe's, else there is no point in mentioning that here.
Section (Social activism): Activism has the connotation of organizing protests and "fighting the system", or a "peaceful form of conflict" as the wiki page suggests. Since lecturing was the primary activity, it makes sense to call it social activity. Else we will have to call the work of teachers "Lecturing activism".
Accurate perception and imagination: Leaving the first phrase out is one-sided again. Unless an imagination meets a perception, we just have subjective fiction, and that has numerous references, if required.
Line 166: Asymptotically: Unnecessary mathematical reference. Very fancy, but misleads conceptually. The asymptote is something you NEVER reach, and hence quite out of place to claim here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.7.134.53 ( talk) 00:10, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
129.7.134.217 ( talk) 22:37, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Should it be retained here? While it may properly be included in "Notable ideas", it is incongruous to have it as a "Main interest", where it was first intruded at 07:09, 30 July 2009 [36], together with Jennifer Gidley, by Wfsf, whose status is "currently blocked" [37], as of April 2010. The info box links to Anthroposophy via a redirect, and a Wikipedia search gives non-caps with reference to Steiner in Gary Lachman and Integral (spirituality), and without mention of Steiner in Arthur Eddington (where the use of the term is out of place and unsourced). The Integral (spirituality) article cites Gidley in connection with: "It has also recently been noted that Rudolf Steiner (1861–1925) an Austrian spiritual scientist, educator, and esotericist who founded Anthroposophy, Waldorf education, biodynamic agriculture, anthroposophical medicine, and Eurythmy, used the term integral in a similar way to Sri Aurobindo and Gebser very early on, by 1906 comparing "integral evolution" with "Darwinian evolution." [2] Jennifer Gidley points to Steiner’s earliest use of the term integral, in reference to integral evolution in a lecture in Paris on the 26 May 1906.
The grandeur of Darwinian thought is not disputed, but it does not explain the integral evolution of man… So it is with all purely physical explanations, which do not recognise the spiritual essence of man's being. [3] [Italics added]
"
Qexigator ( talk) 14:39, 25 April 2014 (UTC) corrected re Integral (spirituality)/Gidley article. Note: No comment is being made here on Lachman or Gidley by..... Qexigator ( talk) 14:52, 25 April 2014 (UTC) Qexigator ( talk) 14:58, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Needs further review of Infobox HGilbert ( talk) 10:16, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
The term means fine art, not "sculptural art" or whatever. See any German-English dictionary HGilbert ( talk) 23:01, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I have included the entire official list; this should clarify the matter, I hope. There are also two places in this article where this list is referred to; perhaps only one is necessary. Which would be preferable? HGilbert ( talk) 18:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
In the same section: the pronoun "there", which was replaced after I removed it, is ambiguous. The last location referred to was the burned-down Goetheanum, so it sounds as if the meeting took place "there". I have clarified this. HGilbert ( talk) 23:05, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
It is not helpful to edit the article in misguided or pedantic reliance on a standard dictionary in a way that distorts the known facts, or conflates later practice with the foundng event.
[46]
[47] Given the English language sources published in English language countries, there appears to be nothing dating from 1923 to the death of Rudolf Steiner in 1925 which shows use of terms other than "fine arts" "sculptural arts" or "plastic arts" for "Bildende Künste" in respect of the appointment of Maryon as the leader of one of the sections of the School inaugurated by Steiner at that time. Factually, irrespective of any personal opinion or point of view relying on dictionaries, the term "sculptural" or its variant "plastic" are found in authentic publications recording or reporting the Foundation Meeting, as translated by persons whose good repute as German-English translators is not in doubt, one of whom is known to have been a quasi-official translator for Steiner's lectures and writings at the time, and whose name is included in the list of persons present at the Foundation Meeting. If in the course of later events, the name of any section was changed, officially or otherwise, such a change would not be retroactive in respect of the name at and after the Foundation Meeting. If there were something which suggested otherwise, perhaps a report or review in a newspaper such as the New York Times, that could be mentioned. So far, nothing at all has been produced to support contradiction of the Adams and Collis translations.
Qexigator (
talk)
06:45, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
I have changed the term to "visual arts". Perhaps this is a helpful solution? HGilbert ( talk) 23:38, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
While to my mind that does not suffice to answer the points made about translation as such, given the content of the current version under the title "Architecture and visual arts", the latter term may suffice in the context of the article as a whole. Steiner as the artist undoubtedly made known that the sculpture, once in place (not in the event), was intended to communicate by way of the spatial-visual design, including the painting of the ceilings and the colour effect of the glazing in daylight. Qexigator ( talk) 12:09, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Maybe this information will help towards letting there be an agreeable resolution about "Bildende"/sculptural/fine. Given that it is generally known that in academia, USA, "fine arts" is a derivative of beaux arts, a construction similar to belles lettres, and that it is less well-known that in German, bildende, in contexts about artistic activity, is more particularly connected with sculptural, three dimensional, plastic artworks, but by default is often used as a portmanteau for what is elsewhere known as beaux arts or fine arts; and that it is obvious and unsurprising that the terms are frequently used indiscriminately, such that this usage is reflected in dictionaries: an inquirer wiith a discerning interest in questions of linguistics and translation would not be blind to the significance of an instance such as this from an official website: [50] New choreography and plastic arts training at the Académie des Beaux-Arts. This page has been automatically translated from French into English by a translation software. Automatic translations are not as accurate as translations made by professional human translators. Nevertheless these pages can help you understand information published by the City of Brussels. "From September 2012, the Institut Supérieur des Arts et des Chorégraphies (ISAC) will be launched at the Académie Royale des Beaux-Arts - Ecole Supérieure des Arts (ARBA - ESA). It offers a French-language choreography and plastic arts training." Or, another instance: "W-S- is contemporary Polish born artist who studied at the College of Plastic Arts and Adacemy [sic] of Fine Arts in Warsaw, and the École des Beaux-Arts in Paris. He now resides in France." [51] And another: "BEAUX ARTS - Magazine of Plastic Arts Beaux Arts magazine is a magazine created in 1983 and dedicated to the Fine Art under all its forms and periods. Beaux Arts magazine est un magazine fondé en 1983 et consacré aux arts plastiques sous toutes ses formes et périodes." [52]. It is also interesting to see that the article on French art begins "French art consists of the visual and plastic arts (including architecture, woodwork, textiles, and ceramics) originating from the geographical area of France", but the term "fine art" is absent, and "Beaux" occurs only in the listing of French and Western Art museums of France. Qexigator ( talk) 21:19, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
+ It would surely be foolish to let an entity operating for the promotion of "A Professional Network for Visual Artists, Photographers, Art Collectors, and Gallery Owners", such as "Fine Art America" [53], determine the question under discussion here about the fitness of "Sculptural arts" as the Anglicizing of a name given in German in 1923, under particular circumstances, to a Section to be led by a person who happened to have been a professional sculptor in England before joining Steiner at Dornach, to assist him in the practice of that art. That could seem like conceding to product placement. Qexigator ( talk) 17:25, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Let the earlier versions be used to repair the present, subject to tweaking if proposed:
9781855843820< /ref >< ref name="wn.rsarchive.org" >Record of Foundation meeting 1923, session of 28 December, 10 a.m. ISBN 0880101938 [54]< /ref >
This accords with published information showing that in the context of the Foundation meeting, those present were conscious of the destruction of the first building as sculpted and of the prospect for the creation of the next for which Steiner's modelling was at hand. For such an occasion " plastic arts" or "sculptural" will not be felt as simply equivalent with "visual". But the German "bildende" can be continued unchanged when "visual" later comes into use, or "fine" (as distinct from mechanic), the contrast with "performing" ordinarily being tacitly understood. Qexigator ( talk) 00:04, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
For any editor who needs some help in translation: "Bildende-Kuenste". meanings: collectively - (visually) formative arts; more narrowly: crafts, graphics, painting, sculpture; more widely, including: architecture and art photography. Distinct from performing arts, literature, music. Idiomatic usage: the fine arts (with reference to music, poetry, and painting with sculpture) (German, die schönen Künste). Qexigator ( talk) 22:43, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
WP:Sources directs us to use third-party sources. In addition, due to an arbitration proceeding over this group of articles, which directed editors to completely avoid anthroposophically-published sources except for wholly uncontroversial material, a great deal of effort went into finding third-party, objective sources. In some recent additions, this principle is being abandoned. I suggest we reexamine our sourcing and find better (i.e. more objective) citations, adjusting the wording where necessary.
This would mean minimizing citations to Steiner's own work and replacing these with citations to commentaries published by standard academic presses and peer-reviewed journals. HGilbert ( talk) 22:35, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
I have provisionally moved the section on "Steiner's relationship to Christianity" to a be a subheading of his philosophical thought; it seems to me this is its proper place. Any thoughts. HGilbert ( talk) 21:33, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
I am not sure this is the appropriate category...but there's probably enough RSs out there to bear it out. Any comments? HGilbert ( talk) 14:10, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
I read the article with perhaps an excessively critical eye, but I need to point out an issue that struck me.
"Steiner thus explicitly denies all justification to a division between faith and knowledge; otherwise expressed, between the spiritual and natural worlds."
Those are not the same thing. Whether one can divide faith and knowledge has no bearing on a division of a spiritual and natural world. Dividing Faith and Knowledge is about the method, or system, of reaching (or maintaining) a conclusion. They are separate concepts by virtue of the meaning of the words, meanings which, themselves, can be discussed and argued over.
Now, I do not know what Steiner actually said or wrote on the matter, so I cannot in good faith edit the article. I don't know if he meant that the division of knowledge/faith shouldn't be, or if he meant there can be no difference between the spiritual and natural worlds. Based on the article, I would surmise it is the latter , since it fits his idea of a unity of existence.
The problem is that if that which is called the "spiritual world", as Steiner suggests, is in unison with the "natural world", then we have simply that - "world" - in which case, that world can be accessed for the sake of knowledge, but this cannot "override" faith (nor vice versa) since there are still cases where the aforementioned specific meanings of the words exclude the other one. If I imagine a thing, a type of Russel's Teapot, and decide it is real, I have made a decision to Faith, but if this alone were enough to posit knowledge of this thing, then faith would truly be the most powerful access to the world. However, whereas I may have faith that someone will read this comment and take it seriously enough to reply, there is NO justification for me to claim I know someone will.
That is, a separation (or not) of spiritual and natural worlds, has no bearing on the concepts of knowledge and faith.
If Steiner's point is, in fact, that knowledge and faith have no "real" difference (as opposed to a rationally reached, conceptual difference) then this is something that ought to be clarified in the article. If Steiner's point is that we have no justification for separating the spiritual world from the natural, there is no reason to suggest there's no division to be had between the concepts of faith and knowledge, since these concepts are BUILT, by rational human beings, BECAUSE we see a difference between two similar concepts, whereas the concepts of spiritual and natural worlds (or "subjective" and "objective" by more modern nomenclature) never suggest, in their meaning, an opposition, the only suggestion of difference being on of perspective and perception (to the tune of; no one but I can access my thoughts, therefore they are separate from all else).
Feel free to disregard this whole thing (this has been a rant by a failing philosophy student), but I thought a major mistake appeared to be perpetrated by a subtle error in a turn of phrase. The sentence I quoted above sounds nice, but is laden with post-modern ambiguity.
Noumegnos ( talk) 12:57, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Rudolf Steiner - born Steiner Rudolf - was a hungarian citizen. He was born in the Hungarian Kingdom. At the time of his birth (1861), Murakirály (from 1920 belonged to The South slavic Yugoslavia, today Croatia) belonged to the Hungarian Kingdom. After the defeat of the Hungarian Revolution 1848/49, the passive resistance of the hungarians forced Austria to reinstate the hungarian constitution (1222), the souvereign hungarian state and the territorial integrity of the hungarian state on the 20th of October, 1860 (patent of October). To decide in this question we could have a look at the birth certificate of Steiner Rudolf. He himself said (when asked in an office in Austria about his place birth): "please include into your document that I was born in Kraljevec, Hungary, on the 27th of February, 1861".
His poem is now published in the Metapolisz DVD line. This poem - thought in German - reflects pretty well his thoughts about divine will. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Derzsi Elekes Andor ( talk • contribs) 13:03, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
That Steiner believed he had achieved a "complete understanding of time" by age 15 is a weird claim; it's unclear what he meant by this, it's not particularly relevant to anything else in the text, and I wonder why it is included. (The intention cannot be to duplicate his whole autobiography.) HGilbert ( talk) 19:42, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Steiner only created one sculpture (other than architectural models, which don't really count), and this was done with the constant assistance of a professional sculptor, Edith Maryon. I don't think this really qualifies him as a sculptor. In any case, the one work was fashioned in the 20th century, so 19th century sculptor is definitely misleading. HGilbert ( talk) 15:09, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
I think the sculptural aspects of both Goetheanums and other buildings need to be taken into account -- the columns, especially the capitals and the metamorphic transformations between them, the proscenium and the exterior window casements, the speaker's podium, the sculptural forms in the staircases, etc. [67] [68]. These are much more sculptural rather than architectural. Indeed, the first Goetheanum especially was as a whole as much a sculpture as an architectural work. I think this warrants the category of 20th sculptors. -- EPadmirateur ( talk) 17:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
I wonder if the information about Steiner's parents couldn't be shortened from:
To
What do people think? HGilbert ( talk) 19:00, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
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Adding "writer" to Steiner's list of attributes seems both superfluous and misleading. Superfluous because other characteristics given in the lede -- philosopher, social reformer, literary critic -- imply this. Misleading because adding "writer" to the other categories implies he wrote about something other than these things. HGilbert ( talk) 12:37, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
Your source used author. Let's stick with how Steiner is described, not random quotes from elsewhere! HGilbert ( talk) 00:14, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Seems like he ought to be on the list of people in the reception section. Jellypear ( talk) 22:31, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
The sources here refer to other right-wing movements, not just the NS party. In addition, though I know there's some controversy over this, reliable sources overwhelmingly support the classification of NS as right-wing: see e.g. Guy Tourlamain, Völkisch Writers and National Socialism: A Study of Right-wing Political Culture in Germany, 1890-1960. I have reverted the change that cast this in doubt. HGilbert ( talk) 20:18, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
I'd like to incorporate what is of value in the suggested edit, but I am encountering a few difficulties comprehending how best to do so.
Current:
At the beginning of the twentieth century he founded an esoteric spiritual movement, anthroposophy, with roots in German idealist philosophy and theosophy; other influences include Goethean science and Rosicrucianism.
Proposed:
At the beginning of the twentieth century he founded an esoterically inspired movement and meditative practice with spiritual, artistic, social and other practical applications anthroposophy. His work had multidisciplinary roots in Scientific method, albeit representing a new Epistemology, German idealist philosophy, Phenomenology (philosophy) and Goethean science. Other influences include theosophy and Rosicrucianism.
According to my professor of Western Esotericism at the University of Amsterdam, Wouter Hanegraaff, no serious scholar wanted the dubious honor of editing Goethe's scientific work, which was largely considered at the time "worthless prose and wrong science". So, it was not actually something appreciated by most of Steiner's contemporaries. WP:PUFF should be avoided. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 20:26, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Steiner complaining about his job at the Goethe archive:
Leijenhorst, Cees (2006). "Steiner, Rudolf, * 25.2.1861 Kraljevec (Croatia), † 30.3.1925 Dornach (Switzerland)". In
Hanegraaff, Wouter J. (ed.). Dictionary of Gnosis and Western Esotericism. Leiden / Boston: Brill. p. 1086. Steiner moved to Weimar in 1890 and stayed there until 1897. He complained bitterly about the bad salary and the boring philological work, but found the time to write his main philosophical works during his Weimar period. ... Steiner's high hopes that his philosophical work would gain him a professorship at one of the universities in the German-speaking world were never fulfilled. Especially his main philosophical work, the Philosophie der Freiheit, did not receive the attention and appreciation he had hoped for.
Quoted by Tgeorgescu ( talk) 20:51, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
For Goethe's standing as a scientist according to that time's mainstream view see Peter Selg (26 August 2014). Rudolf Steiner, Life and Work: Volume 1 (1861-1890): Childhood, Youth, and Study Years. SteinerBooks. p. 130. ISBN 978-1-62148-084-6. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:45, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Another source: Henry Barnes (1 August 2005). Into the Heart's Land. SteinerBooks. p. 40. ISBN 978-0-88010-857-7. I know that these sources (the later two books) are published by Anthroposophical presses, but we could use the criterion of dissimilarity: if Anthroposophists concede these points, that really was the mainstream view of that time. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:59, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
To be clear: Steiner was not to any significant extent an artist: he painted a few paintings and carved one joint sculpture. He taught one child for a number of years, but this does not make him an educator (though he was a lecturer on education and a founder of a new pedagogy). He studied science for a few years at university, and wrote about science, but this does not make him a scientist.
Nor did he gain recognition in the 19th century as a philosopher, scientist, or social analyst. His works on Nietzsche and Haeckel were in no sense best-selling.
Wikipedia standards are to avoid "puff", such as the claim that he was "a genius in 12 fields", though if this claim was from a more notable cultural figure it would be suitable for the reception section. It is enough to list his accomplishments and let readers judge for themselves Clean Copy talk 10:13, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
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The newly-added passage quoting Sebottendorf is highly suspect -- see this evidence that he was not a reliable source regarding Steiner and the second half of the passage quoted what looks to be a website of the Thule Society, again an unreliable source. I have removed the complete sentence provisionally. Clean Copy talk 04:02, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Furthermore, the first citation given specifies that Ludendorff "is not a reliable witness"! The second citation is to a source that does not refer at all to the battle of the Marne or to Moltke. Clean Copy talk 12:19, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Literally, Steiner did believe in a physical incarnation of Christ, but in a special way, namely Jesus and Christ were two different beings and Christ had possessed Jesus since his baptism. Actually, for him Christ Jesus was a mix of three beings: the physical and etheric bodies of one Jesus child, the astral body or the ego of the other Jesus child (who died meanwhile) and the Christ. So, no, Christ wasn't fully man, he was a divine being who possessed a man. And he did not do so since that man was born. According to Steiner, Christ got incarnated in Jesus, but Jesus isn't Christ. Jesus was merely a vehicle/receptacle for Christ. According to Steiner, there were to Jesuses, later they merged (to some extent) and only sometime later did Christ incarnate in Jesus. I did not get it fully, but there was some Anthroposophical talk about the phantom of Jesus eating fish. So, yeah, what our article says about the incarnation of Christ is somewhat misleading. I believe that Steiner was a modern Gnostic, Ancient Gnosticism itself being extremely diverse (they did not toe one and the same line). So, by incarnated Christ he did not mean the same thing as Evangelicals or rank-and-file Catholics mean by incarnated Christ. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:02, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
The vast majority of his books are about clairvoyance and most of his fame is due to clairvoyance. He wasn't a major philosopher, or a major architect, but he was a major clairvoyant. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 13:59, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
The sentence:
"Steiner followed Wilhelm Dilthey in using the term Geisteswissenschaft, usually translated as "spiritual science"."
would be less misleading as
"Steiner followed Wilhelm Dilthey in using the term Geisteswissenschaft, but gave it his own spin, which might be translated as "spiritual science", whereas it is more commonly translated as "humanities", "human sciences" or even "moral sciences", with no connotations of spiritualism or hermetic science." .
What I've suggested is overly long, and a bit messy in terms of sentence structure, but comes much closer to the truth of Dilthey's intended meaning, which is, in fact, a key concept in modern social sciences (as interpretation, explanation and explication of meaning and historical context). The current sentence creates a false association with Steiner's thought and that of Dilthey, and is, hence, misleading. Zevonjunior ( talk) 15:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Rudolph Steiner is the man behind Rommel's occult paranoias which have left a trail of blood across the world.
I have rarely read and apologetic even for the worst crimes of religion that matches the bumbling unlettered conflagration of words, like a word salad of absurdity, that is this article on Rudolph Steiner.
This man, this repository of schizophrenia, deceptive and imaginary spiritism, this anti-semite, this anti-slav, this bumbling fool, who in 1916 delivered a series of lectures that palpitated through the Nazi movement, alleging in the same way as had been alleged against the Jews with the manufactured protocols of the elders of Zion, that the Slavic people through their Russian magnates were seeking to spread their folk soul, a kind of spiritual imaginary subhumanism, to a sixth race of subhumans, the Slavs being the fifth race of subhumans by the way, in the Americas.
Think about that for a moment. This man was creating the ideological ground for a war against the Americans, in 1916, by alleging that the legitimate struggle of East European people for liberation from the brutal oppression that they had experienced at the hands of the Ottoman Turks and the various Germanic Nations was actually a spiritism of imaginary schizophrenic lunatics like Steiner where the ever-expanding self-exculpation of morons whose power was threatened by the genuine exercise of resistance to brutal oppression was in Steiner's mind a secret conspiracy by the Slavs to spread their subhumanism onto an even lesser group of subhumans living in the United States.
To say he was influenced by philosophy, when almost every reference he makes to Helena blavatsky places her in a kind of role of a secret agent infiltrating the United States with Russian subhumanism meant to compel the United States into an alliance with the sloths against the Germans with Britain a Germanic Nation playing the role of the Roman Empire and unaware that really what's intended here was the wiping out of German people.
Consider the lunacy, of a man dignified with an article this long, who claimed himself to be a clairvoyant - someone who can predict the future - who predicted the very opposite thing that happened given that it was the Germanic people but God bless them not the British and the French, who attempted to wipe out the Slavic people. Historiaantiqua ( talk) 23:56, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
About Beginning in 1910, he described aspects of karma relating to health, natural phenomena and free will
AFAIK, Steiner never endorsed libertarian free will. According to him the will of humans is (or at least should be) determined by their own spiritual being (Self), so he was an idealistic determinist (inner determinism or inner being determinism). If I remember well, in the Philosophy of Freedom Steiner has scorn for the idea that humans can choose for something else than their strongest reason (strongest motive or strongest motivation). Found: It is, therefore, quite true that the human will is not “free” inasmuch as its direction is always determined by the strongest motive.
https://www.rsarchive.org/Books/Download/Philosophy_of_Freedom-Rudolf_Steiner-4.pdf page 25.
So, yeah, there are four possibilities:
libertarian free willmeans
making choices due to random quantum jumps. That's not what Rudolf Steiner meant.
libertarianis completely absent from his book, and
free willis not comprised by the index. The word
libertyappears only once. Also, I'm afraid that except for
free willing(mentioned only once), the words
free willnever appear in his book. Pretty much as Ellen G. White's books don't mention the word
Trinity.
There was a Kingdom of Hungary from 1000-1918 and 1918-1946. For the latter period of its history, the Emperor of Austria also ruled over the Kingdom of Hungary, which was not dissolved until 1918 (reforming shortly thereafter).
In 1867, the Austro-Hungarian Empire was formed. This did not eliminate the separate Kingdoms within the empire, however (thus the "Dual Monarchy"). (The lead of the article Austrian Empire clarifies the special status of the Hungarian Kingdom within the Empire.) Clean Copy talk 16:27, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
I found this para in the article:
Steiner's literary estate is correspondingly broad. Steiner's writings, published in about forty volumes, include books, essays, four plays ('mystery dramas'), mantric verse, and an autobiography. His collected lectures, making up another approximately 300 volumes, discuss an extremely wide range of themes. Steiner's drawings, chiefly illustrations done on blackboards during his lectures, are collected in a separate series of 28 volumes. Many publications have covered his architectural legacy and sculptural work. *ref: https://www.biblio.com/rudolf-steiner/author/1038
The information might or might not be accurate, but biblio.com is not a reliable source. If anyone is interested, please find a better source (such a well-known man must have decent biographies, surely?) Achar Sva ( talk) 01:01, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
This article presents Steiner's work as wildly accepted and does not ground it in a wider scientific or philosophical contexts where his work has largely been dismissed. This is probably a result of the articles over-reliance on primary sources to be honest— blindlynx 16:26, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
Great catch. Important for us to fix this, given Steiner's ongoing reach in 21st century education.-- Hob Gadling ( talk)
probably a result of the articles over-reliance on primary sources. Well, then probably not; instead, it could be an over-reliance on in-universe sources (fancruft, so to speak)? -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 16:18, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
ROFLMAO. Pressure cooker mentality. In agriculture and medicine Steiner would be considered their laughing stock, if we would counter-factually assume that the majority of mainstream scientists have actually read his ramblings. He may be important for the alties and tin foil hats, but he is WP:FRINGE/PS in respect to most of his falsifiable affirmations about agriculture and medicine. In the Dutch TV show Hokjesman, http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/afleveringen/1327665 , which was not unfriendly to Steiner's teachings, the commentator sarcastically affirms that Anthroposophy books are placed in the book shop in the "
boundaryfrontier science" category, i.e. "between religion and esotericism". Also he wanted to know if anyone has written books about Anthroposophy from an objective perspective (i.e. neither apologetics nor harsh criticism) and he was answered that apparently there are no such books on the market. As far as I know, one book written from an objective perspective on Steiner is Feet of Clay by Anthony Storr, but it is a study of more than one guru and does not give lots of details about Steiner's teachings. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
The gist: there almost no independent sources about Steiner. You have a huge fancruft literature, and several books by harsh critics, mostly regarding him as the personification of Evil. E.g. some New-Age-is-from-the-Devil theological manifestos. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:45, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
WP:ABOUTSELF states that the use of self-published sources is limited in the following ways:
Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the self-published source requirement that they are published experts in the field, so long as:
- the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;
- it does not involve claims about third parties;
- it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;
- there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; and
- the article is not based primarily on such sources.
Self-published or questionable references that fall outside these areas should be documented here so that they can be corrected. Clean Copy talk 10:17, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
"ATTRA – National Sustainable Agriculture Information Service". Archived from the original on 26 May 2011. Retrieved 23 May 2006. dead link
Evans, M. and Rodger, I. Anthroposophical Medicine: Treating Body, Soul and Spirit totally unreliable and self-serving
"Camphill list of communities" (PDF). dead link and self-serving claim
Die Waldorfschule baut: Sechzig Jahre Architektur der Waldorfschulen: Schule als Entwicklungsraum menschengemasser Baugestaltung Verlag Freies Geistesleben (1982) ISBN 3772502407 ties to anthroposophical movement likely embellished claim.
Looking at this it is clear that unreliable sources aren't the only problem it seems that the main issue is that there are numerous claims that do not meet the criteria that Ideas that have been rejected, are widely considered to be absurd or pseudoscientific, only of historical interest, or primarily the realm of science fiction, should be documented as such, using reliable sources. from WP:FRINGELEVEL. For example: the second paragraph of the biodynamic agriculture section; the Anthroposophical medicine section; the Goethean science section; moreover, the reception section is unduly charitable bordering on apologetic when it comes to his theories to do with race— blindlynx 00:34, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
Dan Dugan was banned as editor, not as author. Dugan has published in works edited by Shermer and Linse, Flynn (and Dawkins), published at ABC-CLIO and Prometheus Books. He has been cited as authoritative upon Anthroposophy in a book published at the University of Chicago Press (Ruse 2013). Ruse has also published at Oxford University Press, so Ruse's reputation counts as established. This fulfills WP:UBO. Also, the guideline WP:PARITY works very much in favor of accepting Dugan's works as WP:RS, and against accepting works by Anthroposophists as WP:RS. tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:34, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Books which WP:V that Steiner was either a rank pseudoscientist or a clairvoyant or a Nazi have been published at:
Namely OUP verifies both "clairvoyant" and "Nazi", all others verify WP:PSCI. tgeorgescu ( talk) 04:26, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
The distinction between Pseudo and para science is pretty philosophy MOS:JARGONy and i'm not sure it's worth mentioning at all. Further the Mahner essay cited is just a technical topology of various non-sciences and makes a passing mention to the parascientific nature of anthroposophy but not Steiner directly. The sources he uses for the claim are:
and might be more useful— blindlynx 15:28, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Dick Taverne states that Steiner was a Nazi (i.e. member of the NSDAP). Taverne, Dick (2006).
The March of Unreason: Science, Democracy, and the New Fundamentalism. OUP Oxford. p. 28.
ISBN
978-0-19-157861-8. Retrieved 3 February 2022. Rudolf Steiner joined the Nazi party in its early days
Taverne is a noble, a life peer, a respected politician, and was published at Oxford University Press. tgeorgescu ( talk) 05:49, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
The first think I’ll say is that I have long avoided the term “objectivity” when it comes to the various things I do, such as trying to reconstruct the past, or to interpret texts, or to analyze arguments. This may seem weird, but I don’t think “objectivity” or “subjectivity” are that helpful as categories.
— Bart Ehrman, Can Historians Be Neutral?, ehrmanblog.org
Same as we don't hold Heidegger accountable for the Holocaust, we don't hold Steiner accountable for the Holocaust. Judging that Steiner agreed he could be described as an individualistic anarchist, he was probably an adept of Ernst Röhm, precisely like Heidegger. So, they were involved early (i.e. without foreknowledge of what will happen to the Jews) and supported a losing wing of the Nazi party. tgeorgescu ( talk) 21:23, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Instead of an indictment of the follies of esoteric wisdom seeking, the history recounted here can serve as a reminder of the irreducible ambiguities of modernity. Twentieth century Europe witnessed incongruous efforts to reconcile these ambiguities, from Fascism in Italy to National Socialism in Germany, and occult movements partook of the same ambivalent atmosphere. As a hybrid of esoteric and life reform elements, Steiner’s spiritual science proved particularly susceptible to such factors.
— Staudenmaier, pp. 6-7
Though raised Catholic, Büchenbacher had partial Jewish ancestry and was considered a “half-Jew” by Nazi standards. He emigrated to Switzerland in 1936. According to his post-war memoirs, “approximately two thirds of German anthroposophists more or less succumbed to National Socialism.” He reported that various influential anthroposophists were “deeply infected by Nazi views” and “staunchly supported Hitler.” Both Guenther Wachsmuth, Secretary of the Swiss-based General Anthroposophical Society, and Marie Steiner, the widow of Rudolf Steiner, were described as “completely pro-Nazi.” Büchenbacher retrospectively lamented the far-reaching “Nazi sins” of his colleagues.59
— Staudenmaier p. 18
Steiner was a member of a völkisch Wagner club, and anthroposophist authors endorsed Wagner’s views on race.45
— Staudenmaier p. 79
From the perspective of contemporary critics of the völkisch scene, Steiner’s faction sometimes seemed to be cut from the same cloth as the emerging Hitler movement. 68
— Staudenmaier p. 86
In Karlsruhe, where the secretariat of the Anthroposophical Society in Germany was located, the Gestapo found no reason for any police action and described anthroposophists in the area as “completely irreproachable.” Indeed, they reported, “most members are rather right-wing, or even belong to the NSDAP.”17
— Staudenmaier p. 107
Anti-occultists within the Nazi hierarchy were not appeased by such reports. Seeking ways to obstruct anthroposophical activities, they encouraged rumors that Steiner was Jewish and the movement under Jewish control. The anthroposophist leadership responded by applying for a retroactive ‘Aryan certificate’ for Steiner, which they duly received in October 1933.21 Anthroposophist representatives constantly stressed Steiner’s Aryan ancestry. In September 1933 Marie Steiner wrote to Rudolf Hess asking him to forbid the German press from claiming that Rudolf Steiner was Jewish. She insisted on Steiner’s “pure Aryan heritage” and characterized him as a devoted advocate of German interests.22 A May 1934 declaration by Elisabeth Klein, a leader of the Waldorf school federation, claimed that Steiner was the first to combat the “lie of German war guilt” after World War I, and complained that “Rudolf Steiner has been slandered by Jewish lies in the press.”23
— Staudenmaier p. 108
In September 1935 Poppelbaum assured the Gestapo that the entire leadership of the Anthroposophical Society was of “completely Aryan descent.”29
— Staudenmaier pp. 109-110
The sd prevailed on a significant organizational question: whether former members of the Anthroposophical Society could join the Nazi party or receive civil service appointments. Nazi opponents of occultism argued for treating anthroposophists like freemasons and thus barring them from party membership. Both Hess and Alfred Rosenberg supported less stringent regulations for anthroposophists. Bormann settled the matter by going directly to Hitler, and the policy remained that individuals who previously belonged to the Anthroposophical Society could not join the party.59
— Staudenmaier p. 117
By 1940 the anti-esoteric faction within the sd and Gestapo considered itself outmaneuvered by anthroposophy’s allies. They noted with resignation that Steiner’s books could still be sold and that Hess had allowed Waldorf schools, biodynamic agriculture, and the Study Circle for Rudolf Steiner’s Spiritual Science to continue. There was, in their view, “no occasion for any measures” against anthroposophy, even if they were dissatisfied with this situation.64 In spite of serious setbacks, anthroposophists had managed to accommodate themselves to the Third Reich. The prospect of unmitigated persecution was held at bay for years in a tenuous truce between pro-anthroposophical and anti-anthroposophical Nazi factions.
— Staudenmaier pp. 118-119
Along with other anthroposophical institutions, the Dresden Waldorf school was closed by the Gestapo in July 1941 in the wake of the campaign against occultism.75 In the end, anthroposophy’s adversaries within the Nazi movement prevailed over its allies, after eight years of efforts to establish Waldorf education as a pillar of the national community.
— Staudenmaier p. 199
I don't know if it's true or false, but it is at least not an implausible claim. I'll go with the consensus. Anyway, I found the Staudenmaier RS and used it twice in the article. All the quotes above advocate that the claim is plausible.
And, another thing: those people were not all idiots. The mainstream anthropological paradigm of the 19th century was racism. And Germany was a country already having antisemitic bias. So, while racist claims are not done in our culture, those claims were mainstream in theirs.
It's like asking why Ellen G. White condemned masturbation: it is because that passed as top-notch medical science in her own time. That was also the case with "scientific racism". Mircea Eliade stated that not being a racist and not discriminating people is a mentality one can attribute to Freemasonry, i.e. Masonic lodges are the source of this mentality—Eliade thought that he found God through rejecting Freemasonry. tgeorgescu ( talk) 15:30, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
There's no question that Steiner influences Nazism -- whole books have devoted to that. But don't think we know he was personally a member. I'd go with " Dick Taverne claims that Steiner was a member of the NSDAP". Feoffer ( talk) 04:53, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Hitler more often than not dismissed all kinds of mysticism, whether occultism or neo-paganism, as superstitious nonsense.tgeorgescu ( talk) 06:23, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
References
Two statements recently added to this article ( 1, 2) used citations to the Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience to support the idea that Steiner's work was pseudoscientific. The actual text cited states, "Effects of the preparations have been verified scientifically." There is no other comment on the scientific or unscientific nature of Steiner's work. I have changed one statement to directly quote the cited text and removed the other, which is simply not supported by the text cited. Clean Copy talk 22:14, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
In physics, Steiner championed Johann Wolfgang von Goethe’s color theory over Isaac Newton, and he called relativity “brilliant nonsense.” In astronomy, he taught that the motions of the planets were caused by the relationships of the spiritual beings that inhabited them. In biology, he preached vitalism and doubted germ theory.
— Dan Dugan, op. cit.
I would tend to agree as well that Bdub hasn't been disruptive yet. But I fail to see how anyone could pursue the argument that mainstream scholarship is wrong and ancient sources are right without quickly becoming disruptive. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:09, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
He was also a peddler of rank pseudoscienceis WP:V by 3 (three) WP:RS. Many more could be produced if you wish, I just scratched the surface of already existing information cited at Wikipedia. I know it and you know it. So, please, let's not play dumb by reverting my edits.
edit conflict Just a note that this diff [ [78]] is based on a block quote in the cited source explaining what biodynamic preparations are. The original source of the "have been verified scientifically" line is Wildfeur, Sherry. N.d. “What Is Biodynamics?” Bio-dynamic Farming and Gardening Association. URL: http://www.biodynamics.com/biodynamics.html. (Accessed on June 3, 2001). In context the cited source dose not support the claim and the original source runs up against WP:ABOUTSELF— blindlynx 00:44, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Let me return to familiar ones like the traffic light. If it’s red and you see it as green, the outcome can be disastrous; Derrida doesn’t deny it. You know, it’s a bad misreading… bad misreading.
— Rick Roderick, 307 Derrida and the Ends of Man (1993)
#Support - HOWEVER, I think the initial paragraph needs to remove the word 'material' and replace it with 'information' (or similar). The use of the word 'material' can lead a person to think that we only accept words that are verbatim from other sources, which is actually against policy, yet it is FAR too common in Wikipedia. I've been involved in too many debates where people argue that "no, the source said 'rough' not 'coarse'" and people spend endless hours debating whether changing a word constitutes original research. But during this RFC, we're supposed to be focused on the "truth" part of the intro, so I guess despite my misgivings, I'll say 'SUPPORT'. -- Avanu ( talk) 03:06, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Im very sorry to appear to be a pain in the ass to everyone, 8-( but I've just noticed that the intro mentions the word 'material'. This implies that we are lifting stuff verbatim from published sources. I suggest changing this word to 'information'.-- Light current 00:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Material is better, because information implies that it's true. The sentence doesn't imply that we are plagiarizing. It says we only publish material that has already been published, not that we copy it word for word. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Steiner was a pseudoscientist, Dugan just had to make this clear in any other combination of words to that extent. tgeorgescu ( talk) 02:10, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
I think this deserves an explanation: I don't deny that Rudolf Steiner was a clairvoyant, or that some Anthroposophists do become clairvoyant. What I deny is that clairvoyance gives one deeper, paramount insight into medical science, agriculture, astronomy, and so on.
Storr, Anthony (1997) [1996]. "IV. Rudolf Steiner". Feet of Clay: Saints, Sinners, and Madmen: A Study of Gurus. New York: Free Press Paperbacks, Simon & Schuster. pp. 69–70.
ISBN
0-684-83495-2. His belief system is so eccentric, so unsupported by evidence, so manifestly bizarre, that rational skeptics are bound to consider it delusional.... But, whereas Einstein's way of perceiving the world by thought became confirmed by experiment and mathematical proof, Steiner's remained intensely subjective and insusceptible of objective confirmation.
Or, to put it otherwise, clairvoyance is Siddhi and using your Siddhis is bad for spiritual progress. (It doesn't mean that I buy into the theory of Yoga, it is just a comparison.)
About described as
vs. are largely
, "described" implies that there is some, somewhat large room for doubt. Well, this ignores how categorical is the judgment of the reality-based community. In the context of discovery, dreams and mysticism are permitted, see e.g.
August Kekulé#Kekulé's dream. But in the context of justification, science (the scientific method) mercilessly evaluates the advanced hypotheses.
So, how did Rudolf Steiner himself view mainstream science? He accused it of dogmatism, while his own brand called Goethean science would purportedly be free of dogma (see Dugan in Flynn and Dawkins, quoted inside the article). And he accused it of Ahrimanism, meaning materialism.
According to Skeptic's Dictionary, "There is no question that Steiner made contributions in many fields, but as a philosopher, scientist, and artist he rarely rises above mediocrity and is singularly unoriginal. His spiritual ideas seem less than credible and are certainly not scientific." But I won't
WP:CITE it since it is not reliable or notable enough. Also, as I told before, I appreciate how Steiner described ethical individualism. Retracted, since I saw it got published at Wiley.
tgeorgescu (
talk)
20:00, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Coming back to the Chopra example: Chopra never belonged to Wagner clubs, and has never claimed to be a clairvoyant. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:05, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Ethical individualism is a theory of ethics. It is opposed to ethical (or moral) collectivism, i.e. opposed to an universal moral code applied mechanistically. Maybe he got it from Nietzsche, but Nietzsche had a very obscurantist writing style (i.e. hugely multi-interpretable). These being said, Steiner had nothing against "don't steal" and "don't murder" (i.e. generic interdictions), he was more against positive demands from a collectivist moral code. And, no, he wasn't against altruism. tgeorgescu ( talk) 08:47, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
This is odd wording in the lead paragraph. Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? ( talk) 02:18, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
I see that editors have cleaned up much of this article, except there is an error message in the reflist. Upon investigation I found the culprit to be "
[1]
." I later found this:"
[1]
failed verification
" So should I remove the orphan tag, or should we have some way to warn other editors to not use the same source and risk getting sanctioned?--
23mason (
talk)
17:22, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
References
WP:Neutrality specifies that on Wikipedia, neutrality means "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." I don't see here any sources (much less reliable sources) being suggested that present points of view that are not included. Unless we can demonstrate unrepresented POVs, this is not the right tag. Clean Copy talk 21:03, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
people with a visceral dislike forWP:FRINGE subjects. Spot on! tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:24, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
I no longer believe there are spirits like sylphs, gnomes, salamanders and elvesis reason enough for immediate dismissal. And they tell that overtly: overt disbelief in core Anthroposophical teachings means one is finished as a Waldorf teacher. Anthroposophical MDs cannot claim that mistletoe is not effective against cancer, since that is heresy and they would be sacked on the spot. Reaffirming such dogma means they are extremely prone to self-deception, rather than facing empirical reality. The old ideology vs. reality game. Anthroposophical MDs say they're right about mistletoe and every reputable and independent source claims otherwise. I'd like to be proven wrong, but please no WP:PROFRINGE apologetics! tgeorgescu ( talk) 03:50, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
Can we stick to verifiable sources? Neither your opinion nor mine are relevant here. Clean Copy talk 23:07, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
We aren't going to feed six billion people with organic fertilizer. If we tried to do it, we would level most of our forest and many of those lands would be productive only for a short period of time.If you want a real-world case, see Sri Lanka.
I have reported the edit war to WP:FTN. Clean Copy and 23mason have already been warned of discretionary sanctions for pseudoscience and alternative medicine. tgeorgescu ( talk) 22:37, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
As for the page having two sets of rules, it doesn't: sources representing mainstream scientific thought have precedence over mysticism and fringe science. That should be a fairly simple rule to comprehend and abide by.
@ Rodanmeb: You're edit warring against basic website policy, namely WP:PSCI.
I would tend to agree as well that Bdub hasn't been disruptive yet. But I fail to see how anyone could pursue the argument that mainstream scholarship is wrong and ancient sources are right without quickly becoming disruptive. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:09, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
And what concord hath Christ with Belial?
And what concord hath Wikipedia with Steinerian pseudoscience?
And I know this playbook by rote: WP:FRINGE POV-pushers who claim to understand WP:NPOV better than all established Wikipedians. Well, WP:PSCI is actually part of the WP:NPOV policy.
This is part of the neutrality policy of this website: The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such.
I explain you the basic policy of this website, but all arguments against basic policy are simply wasting your own time.
So, no, making the pseudoscience label appear subjective or disputed does not cohere with our policies and guidelines. We don't believe in teach the controversy.
Let me repeat: Rudolf Steiner is a pseudoscience guru. A topic ban has been enacted upon someone who did not abide by this understanding. You could be next. So, no, you're not fighting against me, you're fighting against the well-oiled machinery of Wikipedia.
In 2022, pro-Steiner editors no longer control the narrative. Their control violated basic website policy, anyway. They've been tolerated for only so long. Now they either abide by WP:PSCI or they're out. tgeorgescu ( talk) 03:22, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
I am not a denialist, nor an anthroposoph nor a fan of Rudolf Steiner. And I therefore do not wish to be categorized as such. Like you, I am academically educated, and regard the scientific method very highly. But precisely the following sentence: 'His ideas are largely pseudoscientific.[20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30] Others call them parascience.[31]', implies that there is no scientific consensus that Steiner's ideas are pseudoscientific, after all others describe his ideas as parascience. So my point is not so much to equalize science with fringe science, but to equalize the first mentioned sources to the last mentioned sources.
Furthermore, I find only the source to Staudenmaier at the sentence : He was also prone to pseudohistory' not sufficient to make such a statement. That is why I have modified that sentence as well. I have read Staudenmaier, but he does not address the emanationism that underlies Steiner's history reading and Theosophy which is quite essential in understanding it. Again I am not a denialist, but I do think that statements like this should be properly substantiated, precisely in the name of the scientific method. Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodanmeb ( talk • contribs) 11:59, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
injustice, nor am I a
bullyor
dictatorfor applying the WP:RULES which are universally mandatory at this website. If one does not like the WP:PSCI policy, they should avoid editing this article. Or, better, vote with their feet. We cannot make everyone happy, this is a website of mainstream knowledge, not of WP:SOAPBOXING for various sects.
@ 23mason: https://www.famousphilosophers.org/contact/ fails according to WP:BLOGS. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:04, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
@ Rapidavocado: He wasn't a philosopher foremost, but he was a philosopher nonetheless. Even if you don't agree with his POV, he could write philosophy when he wanted to. tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:49, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Whatever influence Steiner had on Schweitzer, the later did not convert to mysticism, occultism, or Spiritual Science. Steiner wrote scathingly about the quest for the historical Jesus: https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/FrJeCh_index.html tgeorgescu ( talk) 06:27, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
By commenting out several sources, these are not completely gone from the article, but these are not displayed either. tgeorgescu ( talk) 18:41, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
References
Steiner's WP:N is due to being clairvoyant and occultist. Of course, he was much more than just a preacher of occultism, he got involved in science, medicine and agriculture, although the gist is that he mainly peddled pseudoscience in such realms. Same as Ronald Reagan's WP:N is due to being POTUS, and not due to being an actor.
He also was a #Philosopher, but he is not recognized as a major philosopher. I can say that his ethical individualism is somewhat unfairly ignored by the mainstream philosophers, but I am not here to WP:RGW. tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:21, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
I think this might refer to his racist ideas, where he thought people were non-white in their incarnation because their spirits hadn't reached the same level of purity. If I am right about that, then the link to colour theory (in the sense of dealing with actual colours and not racial characteristics of people) is misleading. 109.79.1.225 ( talk) 07:55, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
Just stopping by this page and saw that one claim in the introduction is followed by 12 (!) notes. Wouldn't it be better to have one or two of these (or leave them out altogether) and back up the claim in the body of the article, where the notes can be better distributed among the text? Cameron.coombe ( talk) 19:36, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Clearly you have not followed what has been said. This article is about Rudolf Steiner, a lifelong opponent of pseudoscience. It is not about alternative medicine. Qexigator ( talk) 22:52, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
He was not too old, so what caused him dying? 2A01:C22:D5FA:E500:29A5:11FD:AB5:20B5 ( talk) 17:14, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
The point being: Cerinthus wasn't really a Gnostic, but Steiner believed that Cerinthus was a Gnostic. Anyway, splitting hairs upon whether Cerinthus was indeed a Gnostic or only smeared to be so is not germane to this article.
And yup, Neo-Hermeticism, Neo-Gnosticism, and Neo-Rosicrucianism are not mutually exclusive, even to the extent that it is hard to distinguish between them, excepting their names only (i.e. self-proclaimed labels). E.g., adepts of Steiner and those of Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov regard each other with suspicion, but there is a great deal of overlap in their teachings. Both are equally Neo-Hermetic, Neo-Gnostic, and Neo-Rosicrucian. tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:11, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
I'm agnostic upon whether he was a Nazi. Dick Taverne said that, and it kinda fits the picture. But I don't know if that's true. That's why I used WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. We use it when a claim is apparently neither true, nor false. Of course, ontologically, it was either true or false. But epistemologically it is neither true, nor false. The question to people who affirm it and to people who deny it is: "How do you know?" If there is no way to know, then you don't, either. Ernst Röhm was 100% genuine Nazi, yet persecuted by the Nazis. And, whatever he was, he wasn't a turncoat. E.g. Canaris betrayed Hitler, but Röhm didn't. tgeorgescu ( talk) 21:24, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
If you think that in his view, Jesus and Christ fused for all eternity (all the rest of it), WP:CITE a WP:RS to that extent. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:30, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
The lede states that Steiner's ideas are "largely pseudoscientific." The sources given do not support this wording, however.
Thoughts for improvement? Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? ( talk) 01:31, 16 August 2022 (UTC) — Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
It is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins, but for our purposes it is not really important. We also have had perhaps 10 sources appended to that sentence in the past, and trimmed to just these because it was considered "patently obvious" that his ideas are mostly pseudoscience. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 13:51, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
as User:tgeorgescu suggests, it would be proper to drop this qualifierI could not find the place where TG says that. -- Hob Gadling ( talk)
Regarding tgeorgescu's recent edit: I'm sorry but who cares whether or not his non-scientific ideas are pseudoscience? Calling a history of philosophy 'pseudoscience' is gibberish!— blindlynx 20:10, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
Some psychiatrists believe that Gurus are unmedicated mild schizophrenics in a constant psychosis, I can also say the same exact thing here. You shout words that are true, but again, it has little to do with the article, and the situation here. Fadix 18:27, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Many studies of cults and revitalization movements have noted that the leaders are susceptible both to auditory hallucinations and sudden changes in beliefs. The schizotype, we suggest, is someone who has the capacity to shed the commonly held and socially determined world view of his natal group, and to create a unique and arbitrary world view of his own, into which he may indoctrinate others and become a prophet, or fail to indoctrinate others and become a psychotic patient.
Ernst's Law: if you are studying alternative medicine and quacks do not hate you, you are not doing your job. Guy ( Help!) 08:24, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
Taverne's claim that Steiner was a Nazi does not deserve to be included here.
Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? ( talk) 09:21, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
If you deny the application of WP:YESPOV, then answer this question: which is the opposing view? According to which WP:RS?
Some of the ten RS have been public for several decades. Who are their detractors? I don't mean detractors in general, but detractors of the claim that Anthroposophy is neognosticism. If there are dissenters, WP:CITE the dissenters.
And if you claim that Anthroposophy is neorosicrucian: there isn't a contradiction between neorosicrucian and neognostic. tgeorgescu ( talk) 08:36, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
I emphatically deny that the Goldwater rule is applicable to Treher, Wolfgang. Hitler, Steiner, Schreber – Gäste aus einer anderen Welt. Die seelischen Strukturen des schizophrenen Prophetenwahns, Oknos: Emmendingen, 1966 (newer edition: Oknos, 1990). ISBN 3-921031-00-1; Wolfgang Treher Archived 2005-02-12 at the Wayback Machine.
Supporting WP:RS:
Clairvoyance
Also known as lucidity, telesthesia, and cryptestesia. Clairvoyance is French for seeing clearly. The term is used in the parapsychological literature to denote a ∗visual or ∗compound hallucination attributable to a metaphysical source. It is therefore interpreted as ∗telepathic, ∗veridical, or at least ∗coincidental hallucination.
Reference
Guily, R.E. (1991) Harper's encyclopedia of mystical and paranormal experience. New York, NY: Castle Books.
Clairaudience
The term clairaudience comes from the French words for hearing clearly. The term is used in the parapsychological literature to denote a ∗verbal or ∗nonverbal auditory hallucination that is attributable to a metaphysical source, and is therefore interpreted as a ∗telepathic, ∗veridical, or at least ∗coincidental hallucination.
Reference
Guily, R.E. (1991). Harper's encyclopedia of mystical and paranormal experience. New York, NY: Castle Books.
Many studies of cults and revitalization movements have noted that the leaders are susceptible both to auditory hallucinations and sudden changes in beliefs. The schizotype, we suggest, is someone who has the capacity to shed the commonly held and socially determined world view of his natal group, and to create a unique and arbitrary world view of his own, into which he may indoctrinate others and become a prophet, or fail to indoctrinate others and become a psychotic patient.
Quoted by tgeorgescu.
Steiner is dead since almost a century, he left no children or grandchildren behind, so WP:BLPSPS does not apply. WP:PARITY does apply. I don't think that the fact that Wolfgang Treher was a psychiatrist is in doubt. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:06, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The clairvoyant hallucinations of Anthroposophists react similarly to high-quality eurythmy shows. So, in that sense, their clairvoyant perceptions are "intersubjective". But those are not deep insights into reality. How do I know? "By their fruits you shall know them." The scientific fruits of Anthroposophy are extremely subpar. Instead of winning the majority of the Nobel prizes, they got debunked as pseudoscientists.
I don't know any WP:RS which spell this out, so more eyes are needed. The point is made at https://theosophy.world/encyclopedia/epistemology , but that isn't a WP:RS. tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:01, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
@ Ryguy913: Take racism out of Anthroposophy, and it will crumble like a house of cards. Again, Rudolf Steiner's racism is not warmongering, nor malevolent, but he is a racist. If Steiner is an evildoer, he is so as a champion of antivaxxers, rather than as a champion of racism.
“Unambiguous exposés of quackery will inevitably appear rude to some people and hurt some feelings. This is a fact of adult life.” Kimball C. Atwood.
@ Ryguy913: Why those are not facts? The WP:BURDEN is upon you to show that in the mainstream academia those do not count as facts.
You should know that Wikipedia has a low tolerance for denialism. tgeorgescu ( talk) 21:22, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
References
I strongly disagree that Rudolf Steiner was a scientist. By and large, he never participated in the scientific community, or, to the extent that he did, he peddled pseudoscience; he was a pseudoscientist pur sang.
As an artist: I saw his sculpture, it looks like outsider art. I'm not buying the idea that modern art has to be ugly. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
[...] for instance, an island like Great Britain swims in the sea and is held fast by the forces of the stars. In actuality, such islands do not sit directly upon a foundation; they swim and are held fast from outside.Such examples could be repeated ad nauseam. These not only show him as an ignoramus, but as someone who completely severed the contact with reality. Or, as G.B. Shaw put it about somebody else, these are a "curious record of the visions of a drug addict". Such insights about Great Britain did not come from the supernatural realm, but he simply suffered of psychosis. He was not privy to the secrets of the Seven Elohim, but he was simply psychotic.
@ Butterfly or Chuang Tzu?: If we drop Taverne's claim, same applies to the claim of Hitler declaring "war against Steiner":
The irony is that both claims could be true, but at different points in time.
Also, Hitler's war against Anthroposophy was mainly fought through rhetoric, while the war against, say, Jehovah's Witnesses meant they were sent to concentration camps until they recant their faith. So, yes, the Nazi regime attacked Anthroposophists through propaganda rather than through the use of force, and this was especially true since Hess flew to England (before his flight, he was cancelling both avenues for attacking Anthroposophists). Anthroposophists (if deemed Aryans and not taking action against the regime) were rather lambasted than persecuted, the Jehovah's Witnesses were really persecuted. Theosophists and Ariosophists were sent to concentration camps, but not Anthroposophists. Of course, if one was a Jew or acted against the regime, being an Anthroposophist was not a get me free out of jail card.
Hitler knew he owed his success to an Anthroposophist (meaning Hess), and Himmler was willing to cherrypick what he liked from Anthroposophy.
So, what does Taverne say? He puts Steiner at an early stage of the Nazi Party, together with Martin Heidegger (and Ernst Röhm). So, there is no implication that Steiner was guilty for the Holocaust, or something like that. tgeorgescu ( talk) 22:23, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Okay, I have removed both claims as being unreliably sourced. tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
"War against Steiner" was introduced at [80], several months before the newspaper article, so it is definitely WP:CITOGENESIS. The editor WP:CITED https://web.archive.org/web/20060103040648/http://www.anthroposophy.com/aktuelles/wiesberger.html , which is not a reliable source, and it does not say that "war against Steiner" was Hitler's POV. Instead it claims it was published in a German Catholic nationalist newspaper. Since in 1921 Anthroposophy was already considered a heresy, it is not difficult to understand why Catholics wanted to fight against Steiner. But, again, that makes it a Catholic POV, not a Nazi POV. Nobody said that Catholics cannot be nationalists. A Catholic newspaper condemning a heretical religion is nothing out of the ordinary, and it wasn't a Nazi POV. tgeorgescu ( talk) 02:14, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
David Tornheim ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
I'm not promising to provide a third opinion at this point, so I haven't removed it from the
WP:3O#Active disagreements. If someone else wants to give the third opinion ahead of me, please feel free!
I can't tell exactly what source(s) you are arguing about. I know one was published at Oxford University Press, which should be a reliable source on many topics. I see something about "Taverne". I don't know who that is. Can you please explain in the appropriate sections? Please focus on the
WP:RS and why you think it is or is not reliable. --
David Tornheim (
talk)
05:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Rudolf Steiner joined the Nazi party in its early days
tgeorgescu: In the WP:RSN discussion ( WP:RSN#Rudolf Steiner and Anthroposophy), you mention here that the "war on Steiner" likely originated in a Catholic newspaper. If you have WP:RS for that, I suggest adding it to the article in an appropriate place.
DarmaniLink's suggestion above could also be used along with it, so that the competing claims over where the phrase originated are more visible. As a reader, I do like to read disputes on the authenticity of claims in articles. It helps me as a reader to better discern the quality of the information I am getting and the bias that might be interjected by various sources and how it may have become a mainstream belief or rumor. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 20:30, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
@ Butterfly or Chuang Tzu?: I have removed both claims as unreliable. Your assumption is that the Nazi POV about Anthroposophy was coherent, when we have multiple WP:RS showing that wasn't the case. Also, your assumption is that Steiner was either racist or anti-racist, when in fact his writings are a mixed bag. Again supported by multiple WP:RS. History is to a great deal about empirical fact, rather than logic. And this is generally the problem with Steiner's views about history: those are based upon clairvoyance and lots of speculation, instead of being based upon objectively assessable empirical facts. Or when he did consider empirical facts, he was far from comprehensively applying the historical method, instead he was cherry picking. See the two references about him indulging in pseudohistory. tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
@
Butterfly or Chuang Tzu?: and Rudolf Steiner would plead no contest
—that's what Zander says, not me.
tgeorgescu (
talk)
14:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
The reception of anthroposophy after Steiner's lifetime would seem not to belong in the article, but in Anthroposophy. Any thoughts on this? Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? ( talk) 12:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
The IP from Luxembourg who claims that Steiner wasn't Austrian should make their case here. Also, they should not change verbatim quotes from WP:RS. It's not their privilege. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:29, 6 March 2024 (UTC)