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Just curious...I don't want to get involved with the normal elitist Wikipedia politics garbage, but why was the section regarding his baserunning incident removed? Most people that are coming here are probably looking for that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.205.224.216 ( talk) 00:51, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm with the previous guy -- the baserunning incident is key to this guy's bio. Figure out a way to say it nonbiased, I guess. It's that and stealing Jete's glove -- that's this guy's entire life. He's pretty noteworthy for those two reasons, compared to similarly bad ex-MLBers of the same years. Vegaswiki ( talk) 14:14, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Didn't he get cut from the Giants shortly after the incident? Doesn't that make it relevant to his career? What would it take to put it back in, a link to a news article? That's not hard to find.
Seriously, though, the only two things anyone remembers about Rivera are stealing Derek Jeter's glove, and that weird baserunning play. Why are you so determined to keep deleting something that everyone else wants to see? Hatster301 ( talk) 22:54, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
OK, now what's the problem? I provided no less than four reliable sources establishing the notability of the baserunning incident, including being #9 on Bleacher Report's 25 Biggest Screw-ups in Baseball History (Bill Buckner was #1). You now have the "references that suggest any importance for this event" that you asked for, so why are you still trying to keep it out of the article? -- Hatster301 ( talk) 06:17, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
The baserunning incident absolutely defines Ruben Rivera's career. Omitting the incident is like excluding Watergate from the Richard Nixon article. It may not be incredibly important on a global scale, but there is nothing more significant in the scope of this player's history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicklegends ( talk • contribs) 21:34, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Since you've apparently run out of excuses to keep deleting the baserunning incident, and every one of your excuses has been shown to be either baseless, dubious, or outright false, I'm going ahead and restoring it. The excuses you have provided so far are listed below:
"It's not notable"
This is ridiculous. Numerous reliable sources have been provided, including ESPN, USA Today, San Francisco Chronicle, and Deadspin.com, referencing the play days, months, even years after it happened. The incident's notability isn't even remotely in question; removing it on the basis of lack of notability is absurd.
"It's not relevant, because it didn't affect his career"
This is silly. He was released from the team only a week after the play, with no at-bats in between, just two months into the season. The source I provided (which you seem to be ignoring) from the Baltimore Sun concurs that the incident was part of the reason he lost his job (although his .180 batting average obviously didn't help).
"There's no consensus to keep it in"
27 different editors have revised or added onto the baserunning section over the years, including 7 who have tried to restore it after you deleted it. Compared to only two editors that have removed it, it's plainly clear that the WP community overwhelmingly wants the incident to be included in the article. Moreover, 4 out of 4 people on this talk page not named Muboshgu take exception to your efforts to keep it out. I don't know what planet you live on, but here on Earth, when 93% of the article editors and 100% of the talk page editors agree on something, then that's a consensus if there ever was one.
"The consensus is for me to keep deleting it, so that it stays out of the article"
How is there is a consensus for you to remove it, when you have zero support on the talk page? Your logic is truly baffling.
"It's not as notable as Bill Buckner's error, because a Google search for the Buckner play would return millions of hits"
When I pointed out to you that a Google search for Bill Buckner's error returned thousands, not "millions" of hits, and that the number of hits was comparable to Rivera's miscue, you suddenly reversed course and claimed that Google hits was "not a valid argument." If it wasn't a valid argument, then why did you bring it up in the first place?
In summary, the following are reasons to include the baserunning incident in the article:
1) It's notable, as evidenced by the plethora of reliable sources
2) It's relevant, as evidenced by the fact that he was fired not long afterwards
3) It's supported by an overwhelming consensus of the Wikipedia community
And the list of reasons against including it are as follows:
1) Muboshgu doesn't want to
Thus, I'm putting in back in. I'll kindly ask you to refrain from deleting it again if you have not established a consensus on this talk page, and especially if you cannot get one single editor to voice their agreement. Thank you for your cooperation. --
Hatster301 (
talk)
22:28, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Muboshgu asked for other opinions. I just watched a video [2] of it and read an article [3] describing Rivera's baserunning blunder. If its to be put in the article, describe it maintaining a NPOV(Preferrably lifting the description from the article I supplied a link from, or any other describing the play) and put in a reference. While Rivera's baserunning was funny, its notability is questionable. It didn't happen in a big game. George Bell trying to go 1st to 3rd on a single to left field in Game 5 of the 1985 ALCS makes this play look trivial. How about Jerry Dybzinski's blunder in the Game 4 of the 1983 ALCS? Bell's blunder is barely mentioned at WP.
Put the Rivera play in the article as I advised, read Bob Anderson's article so as to have a good laugh over a 1959 baseball play, and brush up on your baseball history. That's what I prescribe. ...William 14:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm glad I sought input. I was sure that the full section Hatster has tried to include is a BLP violation for all the reasons confirmed by you all. In the spirit of compromise I for the first time agreed to let it remain in as a single sentence, after a year plus of trying to keep it out of this article entirely. I'm wondering how it should be worded if it were to stay; that might help people form their judgments on whether it should be mentioned at all or excluded completely. I can agree with Spanneraol that the sentence I wrote isn't quite enough context if it is to stay, but I'm wary of giving it too much weight. – Muboshgu ( talk) 16:13, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Thank you guys for your input. Just in case some of it was overlooked, I'd like to review the evidence that has so far been provided for the noteworthiness and relevance of the incident. The Associated Press, via ESPN.com (which was actually the same article as in the SI.com link posted earlier) recalled the play a week later, as one of the "crazy plays" that had taken place at Pacific Bell Park that season (being a week later, I believe it qualifies as more than just "basic routine coverage"). The San Francisco Chronicle recalled the "bonehead play" a year and a half later, in an interview with Jon Miller. USA Today recalled the "hilarious baserunning gaffes" after Jon Miller was inducted into the hall of fame in 2010. The Pinstriped Bible, the official blog of the Yankees' YES Network, summarized Rivera's career, in part, by saying "Most notably, the outfielder will live on in infamy for [the baserunning play]." (emphasis added). Deadspin.com listed Rivera as part of the "100 Worst Baseball Players Of All Time" citing the "least coherent act of base running in history" as a career lowlight, in addition to the Jeter theft and his .216 career batting average. And, as mentioned earlier in this page Bleacher Report lists the play as the 9th biggest "screw-up" in baseball history, with Bill Buckner's error coming it at #1.
As for evidence that it affected his career, the fact that he was released shortly after the play (as soon as the Giants had someone to fill the roster spot) speaks for itself, as does the fact that it was just 2 months into the season. To put it in comparison, in 2011, the Giants waited until nearly the end of the year to release Miguel Tejada and Aaron Rowand, who had struggled at the plate most of the year. Thus, the baserunning play was likely a factor in Rivera's release. Moreover, I previously provided a reference to a Baltimore Sun article from August 2003 (2 1/2 months after his release), summarizing his stint with the Giants as "...batting .180 with two homers and four RBIs and gaining unwanted attention for a base-running snafu...", which supports the contention that the baserunning gaffe was part of the reason for his release. I called Muboshgu's attention to this not once, but twice, and both times he ignored it, and repeated his request to "Demonstrate that this was the reason he was released.", conveniently ignoring the fact that I had just done exactly that. This is why I feel Muboshgu is deliberately being stubborn and hypocritical. Every time I provide what he asks for, he ignores it and either asks for the exact same thing again, or switches gears and starts asking for something else entirely. For him to claim that he keeps asking for evidence that "hasn't been provided" shows that he either isn't reading a word anyone else says, or is just lying to avoid admitting he was wrong. I find that both unconstructive and disrespectful.
As for the "undue weight" argument, I would point out that, although the baserunning incident isn't much more important than the Jeter theft, it needs more explanation simply because it's a more complicated play to explain. The Jeter theft can be summarized in just a couple of sentences: "He stole Jeter's stuff. He got kicked off the team. The end". The baserunning play, however, needs much more detail to give the reader a good idea of exactly how and why it happened, and thus warrants a larger portion of the article because of its complexity, not because of its relevance.
Finally, if the multitude of references above aren't enough to establish the notability and relevance of the play, I've dug up a few more to further reinforce its significance. Then-Giants Manager Felipe Alou, in an interview with the San Francisco Chronicle two weeks after the play, quipped "That's the only new thing I've seen in 25 years." Henry Schulman of the Chronicle, after Rivera's release, stated "He will be remembered for his wacky dash around the bases against Arizona on May 27." And the San Mateo Daily Journal, also following his release, stated "He will most be remembered as a Giant for his embarrassing baserunning blunder last week."
I believe I've now satisfied all the requirements for notability, relevance, and neutrality. Muboshgu probably still thinks that there isn't any evidence of anything at all whatsoever. What does everyone else think? - Hatster301 ( talk) 22:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
In 2003, Rivera joined the Giants as a free agent. However, he struggled early on in the season, hitting only .180 in 50 at bats, and was released on June 3. Shortly before his release, Rivera was involved in a bizarre baserunning play against the Arizona Diamondbacks on May 27, 2003. Rivera was on first base with the game tied in the bottom of the ninth. When a fly ball was hit to deep right-center field, he ran to second and started to run to third, turned around and went back to first when the ball was caught, turned around again and went back to third (missing second base this time) turned around to go retouch second, then turned around again and went back to third. The throw to third was mishandled, and Rivera was safe at third. He then made an attempt to advance to home, and was easily thrown out. Giants broadcaster Jon Miller described the play as "the worst baserunning in the history of the game!" Spanneraol ( talk) 02:33, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
In 2003, Rivera joined the Giants as a free agent. On May 27, 2003 he was involved in an unusual baserunning play. He was on first base with the game tied in the bottom of the ninth when a fly ball was hit to deep right-center field and missed by the outfielder. Rivera got confused on the basepaths, running back and forth and missing second base entirely at one point. He was eventually thrown out trying to score. Giants broadcaster Jon Miller described the play as "the worst baserunning in the history of the game." Rivera was released a week later, after hitting only .180 in 50 at bats with the Giants. Spanneraol ( talk) 02:52, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
References
If you guys have come to a mutually acceptable conclusion, drop me a line and I'll unprotect the page. Der yck C. 13:04, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 04:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Just curious...I don't want to get involved with the normal elitist Wikipedia politics garbage, but why was the section regarding his baserunning incident removed? Most people that are coming here are probably looking for that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.205.224.216 ( talk) 00:51, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm with the previous guy -- the baserunning incident is key to this guy's bio. Figure out a way to say it nonbiased, I guess. It's that and stealing Jete's glove -- that's this guy's entire life. He's pretty noteworthy for those two reasons, compared to similarly bad ex-MLBers of the same years. Vegaswiki ( talk) 14:14, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Didn't he get cut from the Giants shortly after the incident? Doesn't that make it relevant to his career? What would it take to put it back in, a link to a news article? That's not hard to find.
Seriously, though, the only two things anyone remembers about Rivera are stealing Derek Jeter's glove, and that weird baserunning play. Why are you so determined to keep deleting something that everyone else wants to see? Hatster301 ( talk) 22:54, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
OK, now what's the problem? I provided no less than four reliable sources establishing the notability of the baserunning incident, including being #9 on Bleacher Report's 25 Biggest Screw-ups in Baseball History (Bill Buckner was #1). You now have the "references that suggest any importance for this event" that you asked for, so why are you still trying to keep it out of the article? -- Hatster301 ( talk) 06:17, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
The baserunning incident absolutely defines Ruben Rivera's career. Omitting the incident is like excluding Watergate from the Richard Nixon article. It may not be incredibly important on a global scale, but there is nothing more significant in the scope of this player's history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicklegends ( talk • contribs) 21:34, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Since you've apparently run out of excuses to keep deleting the baserunning incident, and every one of your excuses has been shown to be either baseless, dubious, or outright false, I'm going ahead and restoring it. The excuses you have provided so far are listed below:
"It's not notable"
This is ridiculous. Numerous reliable sources have been provided, including ESPN, USA Today, San Francisco Chronicle, and Deadspin.com, referencing the play days, months, even years after it happened. The incident's notability isn't even remotely in question; removing it on the basis of lack of notability is absurd.
"It's not relevant, because it didn't affect his career"
This is silly. He was released from the team only a week after the play, with no at-bats in between, just two months into the season. The source I provided (which you seem to be ignoring) from the Baltimore Sun concurs that the incident was part of the reason he lost his job (although his .180 batting average obviously didn't help).
"There's no consensus to keep it in"
27 different editors have revised or added onto the baserunning section over the years, including 7 who have tried to restore it after you deleted it. Compared to only two editors that have removed it, it's plainly clear that the WP community overwhelmingly wants the incident to be included in the article. Moreover, 4 out of 4 people on this talk page not named Muboshgu take exception to your efforts to keep it out. I don't know what planet you live on, but here on Earth, when 93% of the article editors and 100% of the talk page editors agree on something, then that's a consensus if there ever was one.
"The consensus is for me to keep deleting it, so that it stays out of the article"
How is there is a consensus for you to remove it, when you have zero support on the talk page? Your logic is truly baffling.
"It's not as notable as Bill Buckner's error, because a Google search for the Buckner play would return millions of hits"
When I pointed out to you that a Google search for Bill Buckner's error returned thousands, not "millions" of hits, and that the number of hits was comparable to Rivera's miscue, you suddenly reversed course and claimed that Google hits was "not a valid argument." If it wasn't a valid argument, then why did you bring it up in the first place?
In summary, the following are reasons to include the baserunning incident in the article:
1) It's notable, as evidenced by the plethora of reliable sources
2) It's relevant, as evidenced by the fact that he was fired not long afterwards
3) It's supported by an overwhelming consensus of the Wikipedia community
And the list of reasons against including it are as follows:
1) Muboshgu doesn't want to
Thus, I'm putting in back in. I'll kindly ask you to refrain from deleting it again if you have not established a consensus on this talk page, and especially if you cannot get one single editor to voice their agreement. Thank you for your cooperation. --
Hatster301 (
talk)
22:28, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Muboshgu asked for other opinions. I just watched a video [2] of it and read an article [3] describing Rivera's baserunning blunder. If its to be put in the article, describe it maintaining a NPOV(Preferrably lifting the description from the article I supplied a link from, or any other describing the play) and put in a reference. While Rivera's baserunning was funny, its notability is questionable. It didn't happen in a big game. George Bell trying to go 1st to 3rd on a single to left field in Game 5 of the 1985 ALCS makes this play look trivial. How about Jerry Dybzinski's blunder in the Game 4 of the 1983 ALCS? Bell's blunder is barely mentioned at WP.
Put the Rivera play in the article as I advised, read Bob Anderson's article so as to have a good laugh over a 1959 baseball play, and brush up on your baseball history. That's what I prescribe. ...William 14:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm glad I sought input. I was sure that the full section Hatster has tried to include is a BLP violation for all the reasons confirmed by you all. In the spirit of compromise I for the first time agreed to let it remain in as a single sentence, after a year plus of trying to keep it out of this article entirely. I'm wondering how it should be worded if it were to stay; that might help people form their judgments on whether it should be mentioned at all or excluded completely. I can agree with Spanneraol that the sentence I wrote isn't quite enough context if it is to stay, but I'm wary of giving it too much weight. – Muboshgu ( talk) 16:13, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Thank you guys for your input. Just in case some of it was overlooked, I'd like to review the evidence that has so far been provided for the noteworthiness and relevance of the incident. The Associated Press, via ESPN.com (which was actually the same article as in the SI.com link posted earlier) recalled the play a week later, as one of the "crazy plays" that had taken place at Pacific Bell Park that season (being a week later, I believe it qualifies as more than just "basic routine coverage"). The San Francisco Chronicle recalled the "bonehead play" a year and a half later, in an interview with Jon Miller. USA Today recalled the "hilarious baserunning gaffes" after Jon Miller was inducted into the hall of fame in 2010. The Pinstriped Bible, the official blog of the Yankees' YES Network, summarized Rivera's career, in part, by saying "Most notably, the outfielder will live on in infamy for [the baserunning play]." (emphasis added). Deadspin.com listed Rivera as part of the "100 Worst Baseball Players Of All Time" citing the "least coherent act of base running in history" as a career lowlight, in addition to the Jeter theft and his .216 career batting average. And, as mentioned earlier in this page Bleacher Report lists the play as the 9th biggest "screw-up" in baseball history, with Bill Buckner's error coming it at #1.
As for evidence that it affected his career, the fact that he was released shortly after the play (as soon as the Giants had someone to fill the roster spot) speaks for itself, as does the fact that it was just 2 months into the season. To put it in comparison, in 2011, the Giants waited until nearly the end of the year to release Miguel Tejada and Aaron Rowand, who had struggled at the plate most of the year. Thus, the baserunning play was likely a factor in Rivera's release. Moreover, I previously provided a reference to a Baltimore Sun article from August 2003 (2 1/2 months after his release), summarizing his stint with the Giants as "...batting .180 with two homers and four RBIs and gaining unwanted attention for a base-running snafu...", which supports the contention that the baserunning gaffe was part of the reason for his release. I called Muboshgu's attention to this not once, but twice, and both times he ignored it, and repeated his request to "Demonstrate that this was the reason he was released.", conveniently ignoring the fact that I had just done exactly that. This is why I feel Muboshgu is deliberately being stubborn and hypocritical. Every time I provide what he asks for, he ignores it and either asks for the exact same thing again, or switches gears and starts asking for something else entirely. For him to claim that he keeps asking for evidence that "hasn't been provided" shows that he either isn't reading a word anyone else says, or is just lying to avoid admitting he was wrong. I find that both unconstructive and disrespectful.
As for the "undue weight" argument, I would point out that, although the baserunning incident isn't much more important than the Jeter theft, it needs more explanation simply because it's a more complicated play to explain. The Jeter theft can be summarized in just a couple of sentences: "He stole Jeter's stuff. He got kicked off the team. The end". The baserunning play, however, needs much more detail to give the reader a good idea of exactly how and why it happened, and thus warrants a larger portion of the article because of its complexity, not because of its relevance.
Finally, if the multitude of references above aren't enough to establish the notability and relevance of the play, I've dug up a few more to further reinforce its significance. Then-Giants Manager Felipe Alou, in an interview with the San Francisco Chronicle two weeks after the play, quipped "That's the only new thing I've seen in 25 years." Henry Schulman of the Chronicle, after Rivera's release, stated "He will be remembered for his wacky dash around the bases against Arizona on May 27." And the San Mateo Daily Journal, also following his release, stated "He will most be remembered as a Giant for his embarrassing baserunning blunder last week."
I believe I've now satisfied all the requirements for notability, relevance, and neutrality. Muboshgu probably still thinks that there isn't any evidence of anything at all whatsoever. What does everyone else think? - Hatster301 ( talk) 22:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
In 2003, Rivera joined the Giants as a free agent. However, he struggled early on in the season, hitting only .180 in 50 at bats, and was released on June 3. Shortly before his release, Rivera was involved in a bizarre baserunning play against the Arizona Diamondbacks on May 27, 2003. Rivera was on first base with the game tied in the bottom of the ninth. When a fly ball was hit to deep right-center field, he ran to second and started to run to third, turned around and went back to first when the ball was caught, turned around again and went back to third (missing second base this time) turned around to go retouch second, then turned around again and went back to third. The throw to third was mishandled, and Rivera was safe at third. He then made an attempt to advance to home, and was easily thrown out. Giants broadcaster Jon Miller described the play as "the worst baserunning in the history of the game!" Spanneraol ( talk) 02:33, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
In 2003, Rivera joined the Giants as a free agent. On May 27, 2003 he was involved in an unusual baserunning play. He was on first base with the game tied in the bottom of the ninth when a fly ball was hit to deep right-center field and missed by the outfielder. Rivera got confused on the basepaths, running back and forth and missing second base entirely at one point. He was eventually thrown out trying to score. Giants broadcaster Jon Miller described the play as "the worst baserunning in the history of the game." Rivera was released a week later, after hitting only .180 in 50 at bats with the Giants. Spanneraol ( talk) 02:52, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
References
If you guys have come to a mutually acceptable conclusion, drop me a line and I'll unprotect the page. Der yck C. 13:04, 25 July 2012 (UTC)