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"The Royal Navy is the second-largest navy in the world in terms of the combined displacement of its fleet after the U.S. Navy." I think this information is not valid. I have collected some information and made calculations by reffering to links in wikipedia itself:
Royal Navy:
This makes 262628 tons for major surface ships.
Now take Russian Navy
This makes 430710 tons for major surface ships. (I excluded landing ships of Russian Navy while I included them in Royal Navy list).
I may have made mistakes in active units(thats why I excluded landing ships), but few ships are negligable becouse difference is nearly 200000 tons.
In wikipedia the active number of Krivaks is not written, even if I assume no krivaks are in active duty(which is impossible) total fleet displacement becomes 316310 tons, still considerably larger than Royal Navy.
For submarines the situation gets worse, Royal navy has 4 SSBN with 15680 tons displacement and 9 SSNs, Russian navy has 15 SSBNs, with displacements between 18200 tons and 33800 tons. If you noticed total displacement of Russian SSBNs are almost three times bigger than entire submarine fleet of the Royal navy(288600 tons Russian SSBNs alone vs 108920 Royal Navy SSBNs+ SSNs). Have to mention Russian Navy has 7x SSGN (18300 tons) and ~20 SSN and ~16 SS.
I have taken maximum displacements for ships, and dived displacements for submarines. I have taken active ships only. I have excluded ships which are laid up, in reserve, in refit or under construction.
If reserves are taken into account, Russian Navy probably displaces greater than the sum of entire Navies of the Europe.
I have made this calculations for Russia only becouse Russian Navy doubles Royal Navy in numbers and I was almost certain it would have greater combined displacement, proving "second largest navy" statement wrong. China and French navies are also very large, same calculations should also be made to determine the place of the Royal navy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.213.65.84 ( talk) 22:24, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
You have missed in your calculations the RFA fleet which not only holds all of the support ships but also some of our amphibious assets (a number of these ships are above 20000 tonnes)and the survey and minesweepers. when measureing gross tonnage you must include every ship in commision. also the status and numbers of active russian ships is still in question. the kirov aviation cruisers are no longer in service ( one is being rebuilt for the indian navy.) regards kieran locke —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.165.225.23 ( talk) 13:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Kirov class is not an aviation cruiser, I think you are talking about Kiev class whose last unit is being rebuilt. Two Kirovs are still active, two in reserve, if you like to, I can write google earth coordinates for all four units. For Russian Navy, I listed ships only if its actually known to be active. Add suspicious ones, these numbers will increase by 50%. Add reserves, these numbers will be doubled if not tripled. For support ships I haven't included for Russian navy either. However its logical to assume a navy with more warships would likely to have more support ships. Before support ships, I would consider adding corvettes and patrol boats, Russians outnumber in any case. The situation gets even worse for submarines. For amphibious ships, I have included LPH and LPDs in the Royal Navy which are actually big (as much as >20000 tons). However I didn't include smaller ones. I also didn't include any russian amphibious ships, including Ivan Rogov(>14000 tons). I think these are unnecessary and these numbers are enough to support my opinion. Note that I havent said fleet tonnage, I wrote "major surface units"
The Soviet Navy always inflated its numbers by including elderly vessels little more than wrecks such as the F class and W class submarines, and NATO commanders would pretend to believe tham in order to ask for extra funding. Is the Russian Navy doing the same? Smome of theses ships must be almost geriatric by now. Are these the Kirov class big gun cruisers of my childhood ? Perhaps the Andrew should include HMS Belfast. Even the Krivaks and Kara class must be getting on.-- Streona ( talk) 17:30, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I also disagree with this? The RN is actually smaller than the US Coast Guard. This is relation to the number of ships and personnel. Can anyone quote how many active personnel are currently serving in the RN, I think it is now less then 40,000. So maybe it should refernce 3rd largest navy after USN and the USCG. The USCG has been used in Combat throughout its history right up to the current Iraq war. Jacob805 ( talk) 12:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
"The Royal Navy is the second-largest navy of the NATO alliance, in terms of the combined displacement of its fleet," This statement is VERY clear, it is based on displacement and there are plenty of sources to prove this. BritishWatcher ( talk) 12:47, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I think the Nato plug about being the second largest navy is misleading. If anything it sounds like a half witted boast. As noe of the other pages on European navies, make reference to there plae in NATO. There should be a world ranking, I have just done a quick search and I think they would be about 6th, world wide by tonnage. Which is still better the UK overall military rank, now around 11th in the world. I think this will also change, as the retire the ASW carriers from service and before and IF the new carriers are built. I also think that this page should reference there current place in world navies, after noting they were the 1st for over two hundred years
Jacob805 (
talk)
13:21, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
British Watcher, besides your POV, I am correct. There are no other naval pages that even suggest a ranking in NATO, I think it is a half hearted boast. Which leaves the reader thinking that the Royal Navy is some what larger then other navies. But we know this not to be true, possibly ranked 6th or 7th in the world. Furthermore my little campaign, as you put it, is to keep people like yourself from rewriting the truth. ( boasting )used to be a very un-British trait, but the more I read pages written and monitored by the bias british, I feel compelled to right your wrongs. This along with numerous other pages, have been written in such a way, they no longer resemble the actual history, leaving nothing but the British invented this and did that. Please advise if the UK is suffering from an identity problem or is it just a lack of self confidence. Note, there is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, but I think using these pages to get your message accross is going the wrong way about it. Jacob805 ( talk) 11:22, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't mean HMS Sutlej (1899) but the earlier one, present in the Pacific Northwest in the 1850s and 1860s. I'd like to start it but don't know its date of building; unless it was the first one by that name - ?? - in which case I gather it wouldn't need a date disambig. Please see this discussion for more. Skookum1 ( talk) 19:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Not sure why this page isn't "Royal Navy of the United Kingdom" like all the other country's Royal Navy pages. The word "Royal" implies any sort of kingdom, the title needs to say which one to avoid excessive inclusiveness. (Much the way "Revolutionary War" must include "American" to be appropriate to the British (English?) POV.) Digitect ( talk) 01:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
The French navy is the largest in Europe, and is larger than the RN (and France is part of NATO) so please remove this sentence. Britain had a very powerfull navy during the 18th and 19th but now it's FINISH.
But the French have always been rubbish, so don't really count.-- Streona ( talk) 23:54, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Cheese.-- Streona ( talk) 17:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I can't find anything but the list of the French Navy's ships: http://www.netmarine.net/bat/listes/flot2006.htm The French Navy has 53000 personnal and more than 140 ships. France is now part of the unified command of NATO (and it never withdrew from NATO). So it's evident that this sentence is false. Do something please, over the British nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.100.39.182 ( talk) 19:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
A size of a navy is based on the total displacement of its fleet not the number of ships. if how ever you want to compare the royal navy or the French navy in total number of ships you must include the royal fleet auxiliary in your calculations otherwise its not a fair comparison. This is because French auxiliary ships are technically part of the navy while the British auxiliary ships are not. This however this is just a difference in how the two countries structure there naval services and nothing else, both of the countries auxiliaries perform the same task. Kieranlocke ( talk) 12:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC) you would be supprised how many time the RFA is left out when these comparisions are made Kieranlocke ( talk) 12:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I think the Nato plug about being the second largest navy is misleading. As there should also be a world ranking, I have just done a quick search and I think they would be about 6th, world wide by tonnage. Which is still better the UK overall military rank, now around 11th in the world. I think this will also change, as the retire the ASW carriers from service and before and IF the new carriers are built. I also think that this page should reference there current place in world navies, after noting they were the 1st for over two hundred years Jacob805 ( talk) 13:09, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
This site [1] refers to " Manning Division :Devonport". What does this mean? Is it equivalent to a "home port"? Folks at 137 ( talk) 06:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
It seems to be that the RN was founded in 18th century. What was before that time? What was before 1707 ? How was the English Navy called? Does anybody know? McKarri ( talk) 14:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
As far as I am aware the RN is commonly used from the time of Alfred the Great, although it would have been called the "scipfyrd". However it was disbanded by Edward the Confessor and was intermittently organised throughout the Middle Ages, the core of it being supplied by the Cinque Ports. This was when warships & merchant ships were interchangeable but when they became more specialised in Tudor times a more organised standing force became necessary. It was again abolished under James I(VI). Charles I tried to raise Ship Money which caused the Civil War and the Commonwealth Navy was formed which became the Royal Navy once more on the Restoration of Charles ii, since when the RN (aka. "The Andrew Miller", "The Andrew" or the "Grey Funnel Line" has had a continuous existence, so technically your answer would be the Commonwealth Navy, which was organised by a number of "Generals at Sea" -usually ex-cavalry officers such as Blake, Stainer, Dean and Monck.-- Streona ( talk) 15:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
@streona+@david: Thank you for your excellent answers. The next question is: Was it possible, that a ship of the Commonwealth Navy f.e. the famous Victory in the year 1588, 1688 and 1788 had the abbreviation/prefix HMS or not? The years are hypothetical and stand only for different centuries. I did contact the Royal Naval Museum and the the Chatham Historic Dockyard Trust in order to get some informations about the HMS-abbreviation use. They said:
THE ROYAL NAVAL MUSEUM:
"The abbreviation HMS came into common usage around 1790s. Prior to this, ships were referred to as "His Majesty's Ship" in full to indicate it belonging to the Royal Navy. The earliest example of the abbreviation being used is in 1789 when it was used for HMS Phoenix."
CHATHAM HISTORIC DOCKYARD TRUST:
"It wasn’t until 1789 that the use of the HMS designation became standard in the Royal Navy although there were some uses of it before this".
This means on the one hand, that in 1789 all warships were renamed. But does this mean on the other hand, that there were some uses before this date? Does anybody have knowledge of these "some" ships or of the beginning at which date these "some" ships get the HMS abbreviation? In the GER-WP we generalize and title every RN-ship with the HMS-abbreviation, no matter of what time the ship is - even ships of the 17th century. Here in ENG-WP it is nearly the same - but it is better in this WP here, because many articles show f.e. the old name and the new name after a certain kind of period. But I think it is still a wrong use, when we generalize every RN-ship as a HMS-ship. So the lemma of many articles are obviously wrong and many articles have to be renamed and checked for the right use of hms. Does anybody have more information to that theme? And is the Abbreviation really part of the name ? Sorry for my bad english. I hope you can understand what I want to tell. McKarri ( talk) 14:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Apparently between 1688 when William and MAry took power - or possibly after their cornation in 1689 until Mary's death in 1693, Royal Naval ships were designated "T.M.S." or "-- Streona ( talk) 18:00, 6 January 2009 (UTC)Their Majesties' Ships"
Does anybody know: In the age of sailing warships, which guns did the fire ships use for their task? Mortars (weapon)? Carronades? Anything else? McKarri ( talk) 15:41, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
My understanding is that fire ships were basically beat-up old ships that were deemed expendable- from the time of the Armada until HMS Campbelltown at St Nazaire in World War 2, so that any armament was not standardised and could be anything but most likely to be as varied & obsolescent as the ships themselves.-- Streona ( talk) 23:44, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I thought this was a very misleading statement. Granted, the number of ships in the Royal Navy was drastically reduced (for example the number of destroyers in the fleet was cut from 443 in 1918 to 115 by 1939 and 49 battleships were scrapped, although the number of cruisers doubled [1]), but the British Admiralty welcomed the limitations on the future size of battleships as a result of strategic and economic considerations. It also served to significantly decrease the number of Britain's potential enemies, or at least their relative strength would be reduced with the 5:5:3 ratio. As far as the Admiralty were concerned this was a great deal better than what may have happened had naval construction been unrestrained by the treaty. It was the same with regard to the Japanese and Americans in the 1920s. In the US, Congressional opinion was so enthusiastic about the Washington treaty that the US Navy was never able to build up to the limits allowed. In consequence, the Royal Navy stayed far ahead of all navies (in numerical terms at least), and was certainly in a better relative position than would have been the case if the American's original ship expansions had gone ahead [2].
Of course there were disadvantages; like it made the British treasury more resistant against any funding to improving Naval strength, and Britain effectively had to reorganise their naval strategy, but overall it was still a considerable gain for the Royal Navy (at least in the short term) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dickroberts ( talk • contribs) 01:26, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Validation of article performed by WIKICHECK. WikiCheck 17:12, 09 April 2007 (UTC)
The article says "However around this time, the Imperial Japanese Navy and the United States Navy began to surpass the Royal Navy in power."
Is this not something of a point of view? The three navys never directly faced each other in all their might. So while the Imperial Japanese Navy may have been locally superior in the Pacific theatre, the fact is that the Royal Navy was primarily concerned with the battle of the Atlantic and the war in the Mediterranean. Both of these theaters were dramatically different from the Pacific theatre, where the US and Japanese navys were most heavily engaged.
My point being that it is not possible to objectively state that the Royal Navy was inferior, there being no empirical evidence of such.
I therefore think the article should be modified to reflect this
Jonewer ( talk) 19:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the IJN overtaking the RN seems to be very much a point of view without substantive evidence.
The only obvious area of IJN ship superiority over the RN in 1941 was in carriers, but the RN had a major carrier-building programme in place at that time. Post-1941 comparisons are complicated by both navies' subsequent losses.
The IJN was certainly superior to the RN in terms of overall naval aviation, because Japanese aircraft types were far better - the RN lost control of naval aviation in 1918 and, by the time that organic air was restored in 1939, aircraft development had suffered from severe neglect. In 1941, British naval aircraft were far outclassed by Japanese types. Whether this made the IJN a match for the RN as a whole has to be simply a point of view.-- Vvmodel ( talk) 15:31, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not so sure about your first statement but agree totally with the second. IIRC, the RN had 7 aircraft carriers at the outbreak of war and five more building - I dont know the exact numbers but I dont think there a massive difference in numbers there. However the IJN and USN had aircraft that utterly outclassed the RN aircraft. Therefore although RN carriers were numerous and and often very modern and well designed - this didnt really matter when the aircraft were pants.
I think though its important to recognize that WWII naval warfare wasnt just about large fleet carrier actions. Convoys and submarine warfare dominated in the Atlantic and Mediteranean - and played a significant role in the pacific too, although this is sometimes overshadowed by the glamour of fleet actions. The IJN's signal failure to develop counter-submarine warfare contrasting nicely with the RN's (and RCN's)very succesful campaign to keep supplied and island homeland.
Jonewer ( talk) 21:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Whilst it commonl;y accepted that Alfred founded the Navy as a standing force, the first English naval victory, according to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle was in 851CE the reign of his father Athelwulf under the command of Alfred's elder brother, Athelstan, who died a year after. I am not sure at which point we can say a force of ships is or is not a navy. Any thoughts?-- Streona ( talk) 17:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
"Alfreds more recent reputation on which so much national myth is based, of the kind identifying him as the founder of the royal navy... is an eighteenth-century perception" Anglo-Saxon England, ed. M. Lapidge, M. R. Godden and S. Keynes, (Cambridge,2000), p. 22.
I think Alfred the Great by Alfred P. Smyth also has a lengthy discussion of the matter but can't remember the exact reference.
Alfred may have re-organized how ships were 'recruited' but this represents a reorganization of the resources and methods involved in constructing a fleet not an outright establishment of a so called 'royal navy'. As pointed out the 851 entry shows a fleet in existence pre-dating his reign therefor can't have founded it now can he. Should really remove this reference to founding. (
86.43.221.101 (
talk)
20:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC))
Not sure where to post a Royal Navy-related article requsst, hope this is OK...came across G.F. Hastings while doing Geographic articles in BC's North Coast area; see here for a basic bio, by his rank and office as described there must be quite a bit more on him. Skookum1 ( talk) 04:17, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
i think that the suprimacy begins in the 18th century to the middle of 20th century —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.144.59.59 ( talk) 17:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion over the statement in the introduction which states The Royal Navy is the second-largest navy of the NATO alliance, in terms of the combined displacement of its fleet, after the United States Navy.
This is exactly right. It does not state the Royal Navy is the second largest navy in the world, which is the Russian Navy. It does not state the Royal Navy is the second largest navy of the NATO alliance in terms of number of ships. It states the Royal Navy is the second largest navy of the NATO alliance, in terms of the combined displacement of its fleet, which is exactly right.
May I also point out the source which makes this statement is a US military website so is considered a reliable enough source to be deemed correct.
I hope this clarifies this statement for those who displayed confusion over its meaning. Usergreatpower ( talk) 21:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I think the Nato plug about being the second largest navy is misleading. As there should also be a world ranking, I have just done a quick search and I think they would be about 6th, world wide by tonnage. Which is still better the UK overall military rank, now around 11th in the world. I think this will also change, as the retire the ASW carriers from service and before and IF the new carriers are built. I also think that this page should reference there current place in world navies, after noting they were the 1st for over two hundred years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.64.176.178 ( talk) 22:10, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Britishwatcher, if you are stating that other pages don't mention a ranking , THAT IS MY POINT, WHY IS IT THEN STATED ON THIS PAGE, NATO OR OTHERWISE 83.64.176.178 ( talk) 09:29, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Interestingly, the Royal Navy - reported weekend of 31 October 1 November in the 'daily telegraph' - had on a particular day in 2007 - a mere 4000 personnel at sea. Little Autochthony.
86.161.195.115 (
talk)
19:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I was wondering if there could be a grid made up of images for ranks etc much like on the page for the British Army, I personally find them informative and add that extra flair of detail to the page, thanks. SuperDan89 ( talk) 17:59, 06 April 2009 (UTC)
I attempted to insert the following:
The reputation of the Royal Navy has been negatively impacted in recent years due to a perceived policy of avoiding risk. This is evidenced by the surrender of Royal Navy forces off the cost of Iran in 2007 where they offered no resistance in comparison to a Royal Australian Navy incident where they resisted the Iranian Navy (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Iranian_seizure_of_Royal_Navy_personnel). More recently, the Royal Navy stood by and allowed Somali pirates to capture two British citizens and even tried to cover up the incident (see http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-navy-witnessed-somali-pirates-kidnap-british-couple-1820543.html); though the circumstances are different, this is in contrast to the US approach earlier in the year where they rescued their citizen and shot dead the pirates (see http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE53A1LP20090412). The criticism of this perceived cowardly attitude is more prevalent within the UK Army and UK Air Force and less so by the general public.
It was removed because it was unsourced yet there are links to articles in the paragraph. While I agree "reputation" and internal armed forces banter is hard to cite, at least the fact that the Royal Navy surrendered to Iranians without a fight and stood by while two civilians were taken hostage by Somali pirates should be included. Whoever reverted it, are you agreeable to the two incidents being included and compared to the actions of the Australian Navy and US Navy ? 86.153.71.219 ( talk) 14:30, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
as of October 2009 the regular navy personel stands at 39,100, the Voulnteer reserves number 3,500 personel giving a total of 42,600 active personel.
link to regular personel http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/apps/publications/pubViewFile.php?content=170.121&date=2009-11-26&type=html&PublishTime=09:30:01
Agreed? if not please express your concern. Bro5990 ( talk) 22:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
OK,
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/index.php?page=48&thiscontent=70&pubType=1&date=2009-11-23&disText=01 Apr 2009&from=historic&topDate=2009-11-23&PublishTime=09:30:00
then Click the "PDF 90 KB" to open the document. Its current from 1st of April 2009, and gives a number of 3,630.
is that Ok? tell me if the link dosent work and ill try another. Bro5990 ( talk) 18:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
“ Quote: ..sea power has never led to despotism. The nations that have enjoyed sea power even for a brief period - Athens, Scandinavia, the Netherlands, England, the United States - are those that have preserved freedom for themselves and have given it to others.”
The infobox includes a reserve personnel figure of 39k, this significantly overstates the strength of the reserve force since it conflates the regular reserve and the "volunteer reserve". I'd suggest that we restrict the figure to the volunteer reserve, at c3k since this is really the available manpower for deployment. Members of the regular reserve can volunteer for deployment but they're not in the main going to be recalled and outside the instance of total war are in a pretty fair position to appeal a recall in most cases.
The regular reserve is those ex-regulars still liable to a recall commitment; all former officers and ratings/ marines up to 5 years after leaving.
Grateful for thoughts?
ALR ( talk) 11:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 01:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Royal Navy → British Royal Navy — Royal Navy should be a disambiguation page. The British Royal Navy could be moved to either British Royal Navy or Royal British Navy. Why does Wikipedia have to be either Amerocentric or Eurocentric? - Marco Guzman, Jr ( talk) 23:56, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Absolutely not, it is the only only navy with the title; just google "Royal Navy" and you will not be directed to the Thai or Norwegian or Swedish Navy. Check out their websites & see whether they refer to themselves- it has always been called that the only exceptions being during the Commonwealth of Oliver Cromwell and in Mutiny on The Bounty in Charles Laughton's memorable phrae "I'll have yer hung from the highest yard arm in the British Navay!" (or was it keelhauled?) or Scipfyrd of course-- Streona ( talk) 08:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Vegaswikian ( talk) 01:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)}}
I have removed the line "To this day, Admiralty charts are maintained by the Royal Navy." because:
I thought the best thing to do was remove the sentence altogether.
Shem ( talk) 17:34, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't have much (well, any) experience at creating articles here, but I'd like to put in some effort to improving/expanding this article, but I don't know where to start really. I don't think this is a "featured" article, so there must be some room for improvement. Cortical ( talk) 14:14, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
What would be required for it to become a "good article"? Cortical ( talk) 17:01, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I see user:Buckshot06 has made a lot of substantial changes to the article, which appear to have been somewhat resisted by such users as user:BilCat. I was wondering why Buckshot06 had not sought consensus on the talk page before making such large changes to the article? I for one oppose users making substantive changes to the article without first attaining consensus. Yattum ( talk) 01:40, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
This article needs to incorporate, or at least mention the Wrens branch, and link to its wiki page ( Women's Royal Naval Service).
I was wondering if a picture of the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier be used in the article as it will be a large addition to the RN. Plus like the RAF page, maybe there could be a future section for the RN page to put all the collective future developments for the Royal Navy in one section. SuperDan89 ( talk) 13:06, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Why doesn't explains that article some defeats of RN during 18th century? e.g.: Spanish victory in the War of Jenkin's ear at "Cartagena de Indias" (1741); this battle involved 186 British ships, 50 of them were destroyed. The magnitude of battle drove government to censure the event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.39.55.116 ( talk) 14:13, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure why the sentence on the Battle of Cartagena de Indias was removed, but this issue involved much research and an ardous discussion some time ago, not to mention the obvious historical importance of the event. I wish new editors would respect previous work by others. This was the consensus sentence agreed earlier [3]:
As the wording of the paragraph has changed, I have inserted the sentence starting with "In the latter war, the British deployed a very large force..." JCRB ( talk) 18:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
The article claims the Royal Navy was the most powerful navy in the world from the nineteenth century to the middle of the twentieth century. But wasn't the Royal Navy the most powerful navy from the middle of the 18th century itself? If I remember right, their supremacy was never challenged by any other navy till WW1 after Britain won the seven years' war. They emerged the dominant colonial power by 1763 and that almost literally translates to naval dominance. Undoubtedly, it only became more powerful by 1815, but it still was the most powerful navy 1763 onwards, correct me if I'm wrong.
Basicly look at it like this, late 1760s - 1940s Royal navy most powerful on earth, during this time 1806-1913, Royal navy enjoyed a massive gap of naval supremacy over its other naval rivals. In other words 1806-1913 was the Royal navys golden age. It is also said the Royal navy was arguably the most powerful or atleast most well placed and prosporus navy in the world prior to the 1760s. eg 1710-1760s. Recon.Army ( talk) 17:24, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
"the dominant world power from 1815 until arguably 1954" Who put that line in there? It appears to have been 41.220.68.1, an IP that's currently blocked, for destructive/vandalizing edits. On that subject, though, It's kind of hard to concieve of the UK being the world's superpower at the end of WW2; by which most British forces were, on the field, subordinate to a US theater commander. (such as Operation Overlord commanded by Dwight Eisenhower) Even before WW2, the USA had already become the world's dominant economic power, and likewise held globe-spanning posessions. And let's also not forget that the Royal Navy technically and officially ceased to be supreme in 1922, with the signing of the Washington Naval Treaty, agreeing to parity with the USA. Overall, at best, Britain was ONE of the dominant world powers from that point onward; more likely, its unquestioned supremacy evaporated prior to World War I, where it found itself allied as equals with France and Russia in the Triple Entente. Once the UK could no longer maintain its Splendid isolation, it was clear it wasn't the dominant world power any more; the world would be without a clear superpower until 1945.
Thus as we can see, that period extended only from 1815 (Waterloo) to 1907. (Triple Entente) Royal Navy supremacy of the seas had a bit bigger range; from 1805 (Trafalgar) to no later than 1922. (Washington Naval Treaty) Just because there was no one else to be unquestionably supreme didn't mean the British Empire continued to be so. The pre-WW2 era showed strong evidence of being Multipolar in nature. Nottheking ( talk) 04:51, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Well-written, clear and well assembled, kudos to whoever had a hand in this! Huw Powell ( talk) 01:53, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
-Can anyone tell me why the article claims that the last RN Aircraft Carrier was HMS Ark Royal? HMS Hermes served as the flagship during the Falklands war. After the war she was converted to a commando carrier before finally being sold to the Indians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.15.159.145 ( talk) 17:11, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
in reviewing other navies on wiki, no one list reserves of mothball fleets, it appears that the author of this page wants us to believe that the RN is actually larger then it is.... ? current deploy-able ship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.190.226.178 ( talk) 10:47, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I think the current active fleet is less then 80, but the contributor to statement of 133, should correct it?
You cant change to size of the fleet based on what you think. if you provide reliable references stating that the fleet is 80 then by all means but its has to be referenced. the current fleet size is around that 130 mark that includes royal fleet auxilary. there is no way of knowing what readyness states each ship is at. (same as every other navy)
Having recently found a copy of a B.R.5 and being an ex Navel cook, would like to Know more about the Manual, My found copy is dated 17th April 1961 and superseded the B.R.5 dated 1945. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.112.165 ( talk) 06:32, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps a graph showing the numbers of ships in the RN through time could be compiled? Or one by displacement? This could help show the decreasing size of the RN over time, due to whatever reasons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carf1 ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Although the term "Ashes" is seemingly being used in various other sporting contexts, other than the original one (national rather than naval cricket teams), and the main other (rugby league), it might be worth pointing out that some (I would guess many) international readers will be misled by the article's present language into misunderstanding the Ashes as something that arose de novo from a naval tradition. If the term is arguably now to apply to every England against Australia contest, it seems superfluous to make reference to it herein, and conversely, if it is arguably restricted to national cricket or rugby league, it should also go. "On the third hand," the best way from a WP viewpoint would be a citation for the term, "Ashes" in a naval context: that is, does the RN and/or RAN themselves, or their members, or written game reports officially or colloquially name these naval cricket games that way? Any such citation? If so, might a consideration be, "called the Ashes in reference to the famous national cricket team rivalry of that name." FeatherPluma ( talk) 15:39, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Royal Navy (disambiguation) - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RM bot 18:46, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Phd8511 ( talk) 16:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
"The Royal Navy is a blue water navy and the second-largest navy of the NATO alliance" this is no longer true as the RN has no longer any aircraft carrier. The Royal Navy has been superceded in importance in the NATO alliance by the French Navy an is no longer a blue water navy. Maybe the whole paragraph should be rewritten by the original author to fit present situation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.78.0.134 ( talk) 15:23, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
If the Falkland Islands were to be invaded, who would provide power projection to help retake the Islands. Would it be the French or the Spanish? The answer to this question should determine if the Royal Navy is a blue water navy. Hmmmmmmmm....
I side with with rewriting the intro. as the Royal navy is no longer 2nd is size and power. I think this is misleading and out dates. The French, China and Russian Navies are larger. This is a fact that is easily referenced. Please update the intro, to reflect the current change in the Royal navies ability to project its influence around the worldJacob805 08:52, 25 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacob805 ( talk • contribs)
The RN's ability to project power is certainly not second to the US Navy any longer. The sole remaining "aircraft carrier" has no fixed wing aircraft and there is no guarantee that either of the Queen Elizabeth class will enter service with fixed wing aircraft within the next decade. The French Navy's ability to project air power at sea is far superior to that of the Royal Navy - possessing both one nuclear powered aircraft carrier and the formidable helicopter capabilities of the three Mistral class vessels. This reference in the text should be changed since it is completely outdated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.127.227.72 ( talk) 17:23, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Without air power, power projection at sea is severely limited. Not only does the UK have no fixed-wing aircraft at sea, it doesn't even possess maritime patrol aircraft operating from land. The UK's amphibious ships can only operate in permissive environments where there is limited opposition, and certainly no hostile air power - such as in Libya where the lucky presence of land bases (and primarily US air power in the initial stages and the presence of the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle) permitted air opposition to be quickly suppressed.
Seems you don't like some edit that i made. Put it here. If you need we can discuss it. Latestnewsupdate ( talk) 07:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
For the sake of discussing whether U.K got aircraft carrier or not, one must not have reverted my whole edits, including the Libyan operation, lack of warships, defense cuts and reduction of fleet, Bay class, Icebreaker info etc. the reversal of updates were totally uncalled for and a violation of rules. Latestnewsupdate ( talk) 01:45, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Next great thing to look out for is the war with Iran. Latestnewsupdate ( talk) 02:01, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
User:Latestnewsupdate please gain wp:consensus for your proposed changes and do not engage in wp:edit warring. I for one oppose your proposed changes as you propose the removal of large portions of informative and long standing material. In addition, your proposed changes seem charged with POV and your account's behaviour is suspiciously similar to the blocked sock accounts of banned user:Chanakyathegreat. Quite vivid blur ( talk) 18:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
I have restored the long standing introduction to the article as basic errors, such claiming the Royal Navy no longer has an aircraft carrier in service despite HMS Illustrious still being in service, were made. As I said in my edit summary, please check facts before making such edits. A note to some here, an aircraft carrier is still categorised as an aircraft carrier regardless of whether it is carrying fixed wing aircraft. Quite vivid blur ( talk) 19:01, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Its a dedicated helicopter carrier, not an aircraft carrier. Aircraft carrier indicates its main asset it utilises is fixed wing aircraft which the Royal Navy no longer has. With regards to you removing my update you really don't need reverences for the changes i made. The Royal navy lacks the capability to project air power from the sea a formidable asset that even the Spanish possess let alone the mid size carriers of the Russian and French Navies. It in no way shape or form has the capabilities of the French and Russian navies. They both possess a dedicated fixed wing carrier and even nuclear in regards to the CdG. They both possess super sonic aircraft on these carriers which the Royal Navy lacked even when they did have dedicated carriers. To say its power is second to the US really has no credibility. They possess a formidable reputation but not actual capability of the second most Navy in the world. Regards - Ahmed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.150.37 ( talk) 11:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Strictly speaking that is true it possesses air assets in the way of helicopters and a carrier in the form of a helicopter carrier. But you won't hear the US Navy saying they have 20 carriers if you include their helicopter carriers would you? Thats because they arent aircraft carriers. Really this whole arguement is based on the fact that the British resent the fact they no longer have an aircraft carrier so they call a helicopter carrier an aircraft carrier to bring back the credabilty of the ability of the Royal Navy. With regards to attack helicopters, yes they are technically air power but put it this way, if you are projecting air power it won't be in the way of a bunch of helicopters they are a support asset it will be in the way of fixed wing fighter aircraft. Pulling at straws here mate, the whole notion that the Royal Navy is still #2 in the world in regards to naval assets has no basis. At present time until the arrival of HMS Elizabeth and Prince of Wales it severely lacking in capability. Regards Ahmed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.137.105 ( talk) 11:18, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
What it says on Janes is irrelevant. By international standards it is NOT an aircraft carrier it is a helicopter carrier. If its dedicated aircraft were fixed wing aircraft then it would be but it isn't. Your argument has no basis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.137.105 ( talk) 11:50, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes very true there are many ways to project naval power but the greatest naval asset to project power other than SLBMs is an aircraft carrier. This is a major force multiplier that the Royal Navy no longer possesses. Yes like you have stated, they do have a lot of capability but not on par with the Russian and French and very soon also the Chinese navies. The very capabilities you have listed the French and Russian navies also possess but with the ADDITION of a mid sized aircraft carrier. If you still argue that with the conversion of HMS Illustrious to a dedicated helicopter carrier it is still a aircraft carrier then by your own definition the French with their Mistral class helicopter carriers are now aircraft carriers so the French navy has a fleet of 4 aircraft carriers! Your whole argument is utterly flawed there is no argument to make here do you see the Tarawa and Wasp class of the US Navy, Mistral class of the French Navy, Dokdo class of the ROK Navy or the Hyuga class of the Japanese Navy being called aircraft carriers? They aren't called aircraft carriers because they aren't. To be called an aircraft carrier is to be a dedicated fixed wing carrier like that of the Charles de Gaulle of the French Navy, Sao Paulo of the Brazilian Navy, INS Viraat of the Indian Navy, Giuseppe Garibaldi and Cavour of the Italian Navy, Kuznetsov of the Russian Navy, Principe De Asturias of the Spanish Navy and the USS Enterprise and Nimitz class super carriers of the US Navy. Now you could argue that the Tarawa class and their successor America class helicopter carriers are aircraft carriers because they carry fixed wing aircraft and are sometimes utilised as light aircraft carriers, however their primary role is to transport helicopters and troops and for them to be used offensively from the sea not that of a fixed wing carrier . The HMS Illustrious doesn't even have a fixed wing capability as a secondary role. In regards to its capability when they did even have the Harriers it is a subsonic aircraft that is in no way shape or form close to the capabilities of the Russian and Indian Navies MiG-29K, Rafale M of the French Navy and the F/A-18E/F of the US Navy. These are all multirole supersonic aircraft of the 4.5 generation of fighter aircraft. I am no longer going to continue this argument because I have clearly demonstrated the flaws in this article and my arguments are based on facts and the international standards of ship designations. I have also clearly demonstrated that the Royal Navy does not have the 2nd greatest power projection in the world because it is clearly lacking in capability. This won't be the case when HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales come into service in 2020-2024 but until then this article should reflect reality of present time and not that of the past and future.
Also on a side note, if the Argentinians decide to invade the Falklands I wish the so called '2nd most projectionable Navy' the best of luck! They will have to go the supposed inferior French Navy and ask for the use of their nuclear aircraft carrier and their fighters to establish air superiority of the Falkland Islands because they lack the capability, even though they are superior. What a joke honestly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.137.105 ( talk) 02:37, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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"The Royal Navy is the second-largest navy in the world in terms of the combined displacement of its fleet after the U.S. Navy." I think this information is not valid. I have collected some information and made calculations by reffering to links in wikipedia itself:
Royal Navy:
This makes 262628 tons for major surface ships.
Now take Russian Navy
This makes 430710 tons for major surface ships. (I excluded landing ships of Russian Navy while I included them in Royal Navy list).
I may have made mistakes in active units(thats why I excluded landing ships), but few ships are negligable becouse difference is nearly 200000 tons.
In wikipedia the active number of Krivaks is not written, even if I assume no krivaks are in active duty(which is impossible) total fleet displacement becomes 316310 tons, still considerably larger than Royal Navy.
For submarines the situation gets worse, Royal navy has 4 SSBN with 15680 tons displacement and 9 SSNs, Russian navy has 15 SSBNs, with displacements between 18200 tons and 33800 tons. If you noticed total displacement of Russian SSBNs are almost three times bigger than entire submarine fleet of the Royal navy(288600 tons Russian SSBNs alone vs 108920 Royal Navy SSBNs+ SSNs). Have to mention Russian Navy has 7x SSGN (18300 tons) and ~20 SSN and ~16 SS.
I have taken maximum displacements for ships, and dived displacements for submarines. I have taken active ships only. I have excluded ships which are laid up, in reserve, in refit or under construction.
If reserves are taken into account, Russian Navy probably displaces greater than the sum of entire Navies of the Europe.
I have made this calculations for Russia only becouse Russian Navy doubles Royal Navy in numbers and I was almost certain it would have greater combined displacement, proving "second largest navy" statement wrong. China and French navies are also very large, same calculations should also be made to determine the place of the Royal navy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.213.65.84 ( talk) 22:24, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
You have missed in your calculations the RFA fleet which not only holds all of the support ships but also some of our amphibious assets (a number of these ships are above 20000 tonnes)and the survey and minesweepers. when measureing gross tonnage you must include every ship in commision. also the status and numbers of active russian ships is still in question. the kirov aviation cruisers are no longer in service ( one is being rebuilt for the indian navy.) regards kieran locke —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.165.225.23 ( talk) 13:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Kirov class is not an aviation cruiser, I think you are talking about Kiev class whose last unit is being rebuilt. Two Kirovs are still active, two in reserve, if you like to, I can write google earth coordinates for all four units. For Russian Navy, I listed ships only if its actually known to be active. Add suspicious ones, these numbers will increase by 50%. Add reserves, these numbers will be doubled if not tripled. For support ships I haven't included for Russian navy either. However its logical to assume a navy with more warships would likely to have more support ships. Before support ships, I would consider adding corvettes and patrol boats, Russians outnumber in any case. The situation gets even worse for submarines. For amphibious ships, I have included LPH and LPDs in the Royal Navy which are actually big (as much as >20000 tons). However I didn't include smaller ones. I also didn't include any russian amphibious ships, including Ivan Rogov(>14000 tons). I think these are unnecessary and these numbers are enough to support my opinion. Note that I havent said fleet tonnage, I wrote "major surface units"
The Soviet Navy always inflated its numbers by including elderly vessels little more than wrecks such as the F class and W class submarines, and NATO commanders would pretend to believe tham in order to ask for extra funding. Is the Russian Navy doing the same? Smome of theses ships must be almost geriatric by now. Are these the Kirov class big gun cruisers of my childhood ? Perhaps the Andrew should include HMS Belfast. Even the Krivaks and Kara class must be getting on.-- Streona ( talk) 17:30, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I also disagree with this? The RN is actually smaller than the US Coast Guard. This is relation to the number of ships and personnel. Can anyone quote how many active personnel are currently serving in the RN, I think it is now less then 40,000. So maybe it should refernce 3rd largest navy after USN and the USCG. The USCG has been used in Combat throughout its history right up to the current Iraq war. Jacob805 ( talk) 12:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
"The Royal Navy is the second-largest navy of the NATO alliance, in terms of the combined displacement of its fleet," This statement is VERY clear, it is based on displacement and there are plenty of sources to prove this. BritishWatcher ( talk) 12:47, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I think the Nato plug about being the second largest navy is misleading. If anything it sounds like a half witted boast. As noe of the other pages on European navies, make reference to there plae in NATO. There should be a world ranking, I have just done a quick search and I think they would be about 6th, world wide by tonnage. Which is still better the UK overall military rank, now around 11th in the world. I think this will also change, as the retire the ASW carriers from service and before and IF the new carriers are built. I also think that this page should reference there current place in world navies, after noting they were the 1st for over two hundred years
Jacob805 (
talk)
13:21, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
British Watcher, besides your POV, I am correct. There are no other naval pages that even suggest a ranking in NATO, I think it is a half hearted boast. Which leaves the reader thinking that the Royal Navy is some what larger then other navies. But we know this not to be true, possibly ranked 6th or 7th in the world. Furthermore my little campaign, as you put it, is to keep people like yourself from rewriting the truth. ( boasting )used to be a very un-British trait, but the more I read pages written and monitored by the bias british, I feel compelled to right your wrongs. This along with numerous other pages, have been written in such a way, they no longer resemble the actual history, leaving nothing but the British invented this and did that. Please advise if the UK is suffering from an identity problem or is it just a lack of self confidence. Note, there is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, but I think using these pages to get your message accross is going the wrong way about it. Jacob805 ( talk) 11:22, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't mean HMS Sutlej (1899) but the earlier one, present in the Pacific Northwest in the 1850s and 1860s. I'd like to start it but don't know its date of building; unless it was the first one by that name - ?? - in which case I gather it wouldn't need a date disambig. Please see this discussion for more. Skookum1 ( talk) 19:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Not sure why this page isn't "Royal Navy of the United Kingdom" like all the other country's Royal Navy pages. The word "Royal" implies any sort of kingdom, the title needs to say which one to avoid excessive inclusiveness. (Much the way "Revolutionary War" must include "American" to be appropriate to the British (English?) POV.) Digitect ( talk) 01:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
The French navy is the largest in Europe, and is larger than the RN (and France is part of NATO) so please remove this sentence. Britain had a very powerfull navy during the 18th and 19th but now it's FINISH.
But the French have always been rubbish, so don't really count.-- Streona ( talk) 23:54, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Cheese.-- Streona ( talk) 17:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I can't find anything but the list of the French Navy's ships: http://www.netmarine.net/bat/listes/flot2006.htm The French Navy has 53000 personnal and more than 140 ships. France is now part of the unified command of NATO (and it never withdrew from NATO). So it's evident that this sentence is false. Do something please, over the British nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.100.39.182 ( talk) 19:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
A size of a navy is based on the total displacement of its fleet not the number of ships. if how ever you want to compare the royal navy or the French navy in total number of ships you must include the royal fleet auxiliary in your calculations otherwise its not a fair comparison. This is because French auxiliary ships are technically part of the navy while the British auxiliary ships are not. This however this is just a difference in how the two countries structure there naval services and nothing else, both of the countries auxiliaries perform the same task. Kieranlocke ( talk) 12:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC) you would be supprised how many time the RFA is left out when these comparisions are made Kieranlocke ( talk) 12:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I think the Nato plug about being the second largest navy is misleading. As there should also be a world ranking, I have just done a quick search and I think they would be about 6th, world wide by tonnage. Which is still better the UK overall military rank, now around 11th in the world. I think this will also change, as the retire the ASW carriers from service and before and IF the new carriers are built. I also think that this page should reference there current place in world navies, after noting they were the 1st for over two hundred years Jacob805 ( talk) 13:09, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
This site [1] refers to " Manning Division :Devonport". What does this mean? Is it equivalent to a "home port"? Folks at 137 ( talk) 06:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
It seems to be that the RN was founded in 18th century. What was before that time? What was before 1707 ? How was the English Navy called? Does anybody know? McKarri ( talk) 14:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
As far as I am aware the RN is commonly used from the time of Alfred the Great, although it would have been called the "scipfyrd". However it was disbanded by Edward the Confessor and was intermittently organised throughout the Middle Ages, the core of it being supplied by the Cinque Ports. This was when warships & merchant ships were interchangeable but when they became more specialised in Tudor times a more organised standing force became necessary. It was again abolished under James I(VI). Charles I tried to raise Ship Money which caused the Civil War and the Commonwealth Navy was formed which became the Royal Navy once more on the Restoration of Charles ii, since when the RN (aka. "The Andrew Miller", "The Andrew" or the "Grey Funnel Line" has had a continuous existence, so technically your answer would be the Commonwealth Navy, which was organised by a number of "Generals at Sea" -usually ex-cavalry officers such as Blake, Stainer, Dean and Monck.-- Streona ( talk) 15:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
@streona+@david: Thank you for your excellent answers. The next question is: Was it possible, that a ship of the Commonwealth Navy f.e. the famous Victory in the year 1588, 1688 and 1788 had the abbreviation/prefix HMS or not? The years are hypothetical and stand only for different centuries. I did contact the Royal Naval Museum and the the Chatham Historic Dockyard Trust in order to get some informations about the HMS-abbreviation use. They said:
THE ROYAL NAVAL MUSEUM:
"The abbreviation HMS came into common usage around 1790s. Prior to this, ships were referred to as "His Majesty's Ship" in full to indicate it belonging to the Royal Navy. The earliest example of the abbreviation being used is in 1789 when it was used for HMS Phoenix."
CHATHAM HISTORIC DOCKYARD TRUST:
"It wasn’t until 1789 that the use of the HMS designation became standard in the Royal Navy although there were some uses of it before this".
This means on the one hand, that in 1789 all warships were renamed. But does this mean on the other hand, that there were some uses before this date? Does anybody have knowledge of these "some" ships or of the beginning at which date these "some" ships get the HMS abbreviation? In the GER-WP we generalize and title every RN-ship with the HMS-abbreviation, no matter of what time the ship is - even ships of the 17th century. Here in ENG-WP it is nearly the same - but it is better in this WP here, because many articles show f.e. the old name and the new name after a certain kind of period. But I think it is still a wrong use, when we generalize every RN-ship as a HMS-ship. So the lemma of many articles are obviously wrong and many articles have to be renamed and checked for the right use of hms. Does anybody have more information to that theme? And is the Abbreviation really part of the name ? Sorry for my bad english. I hope you can understand what I want to tell. McKarri ( talk) 14:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Apparently between 1688 when William and MAry took power - or possibly after their cornation in 1689 until Mary's death in 1693, Royal Naval ships were designated "T.M.S." or "-- Streona ( talk) 18:00, 6 January 2009 (UTC)Their Majesties' Ships"
Does anybody know: In the age of sailing warships, which guns did the fire ships use for their task? Mortars (weapon)? Carronades? Anything else? McKarri ( talk) 15:41, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
My understanding is that fire ships were basically beat-up old ships that were deemed expendable- from the time of the Armada until HMS Campbelltown at St Nazaire in World War 2, so that any armament was not standardised and could be anything but most likely to be as varied & obsolescent as the ships themselves.-- Streona ( talk) 23:44, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I thought this was a very misleading statement. Granted, the number of ships in the Royal Navy was drastically reduced (for example the number of destroyers in the fleet was cut from 443 in 1918 to 115 by 1939 and 49 battleships were scrapped, although the number of cruisers doubled [1]), but the British Admiralty welcomed the limitations on the future size of battleships as a result of strategic and economic considerations. It also served to significantly decrease the number of Britain's potential enemies, or at least their relative strength would be reduced with the 5:5:3 ratio. As far as the Admiralty were concerned this was a great deal better than what may have happened had naval construction been unrestrained by the treaty. It was the same with regard to the Japanese and Americans in the 1920s. In the US, Congressional opinion was so enthusiastic about the Washington treaty that the US Navy was never able to build up to the limits allowed. In consequence, the Royal Navy stayed far ahead of all navies (in numerical terms at least), and was certainly in a better relative position than would have been the case if the American's original ship expansions had gone ahead [2].
Of course there were disadvantages; like it made the British treasury more resistant against any funding to improving Naval strength, and Britain effectively had to reorganise their naval strategy, but overall it was still a considerable gain for the Royal Navy (at least in the short term) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dickroberts ( talk • contribs) 01:26, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Validation of article performed by WIKICHECK. WikiCheck 17:12, 09 April 2007 (UTC)
The article says "However around this time, the Imperial Japanese Navy and the United States Navy began to surpass the Royal Navy in power."
Is this not something of a point of view? The three navys never directly faced each other in all their might. So while the Imperial Japanese Navy may have been locally superior in the Pacific theatre, the fact is that the Royal Navy was primarily concerned with the battle of the Atlantic and the war in the Mediterranean. Both of these theaters were dramatically different from the Pacific theatre, where the US and Japanese navys were most heavily engaged.
My point being that it is not possible to objectively state that the Royal Navy was inferior, there being no empirical evidence of such.
I therefore think the article should be modified to reflect this
Jonewer ( talk) 19:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the IJN overtaking the RN seems to be very much a point of view without substantive evidence.
The only obvious area of IJN ship superiority over the RN in 1941 was in carriers, but the RN had a major carrier-building programme in place at that time. Post-1941 comparisons are complicated by both navies' subsequent losses.
The IJN was certainly superior to the RN in terms of overall naval aviation, because Japanese aircraft types were far better - the RN lost control of naval aviation in 1918 and, by the time that organic air was restored in 1939, aircraft development had suffered from severe neglect. In 1941, British naval aircraft were far outclassed by Japanese types. Whether this made the IJN a match for the RN as a whole has to be simply a point of view.-- Vvmodel ( talk) 15:31, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not so sure about your first statement but agree totally with the second. IIRC, the RN had 7 aircraft carriers at the outbreak of war and five more building - I dont know the exact numbers but I dont think there a massive difference in numbers there. However the IJN and USN had aircraft that utterly outclassed the RN aircraft. Therefore although RN carriers were numerous and and often very modern and well designed - this didnt really matter when the aircraft were pants.
I think though its important to recognize that WWII naval warfare wasnt just about large fleet carrier actions. Convoys and submarine warfare dominated in the Atlantic and Mediteranean - and played a significant role in the pacific too, although this is sometimes overshadowed by the glamour of fleet actions. The IJN's signal failure to develop counter-submarine warfare contrasting nicely with the RN's (and RCN's)very succesful campaign to keep supplied and island homeland.
Jonewer ( talk) 21:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Whilst it commonl;y accepted that Alfred founded the Navy as a standing force, the first English naval victory, according to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle was in 851CE the reign of his father Athelwulf under the command of Alfred's elder brother, Athelstan, who died a year after. I am not sure at which point we can say a force of ships is or is not a navy. Any thoughts?-- Streona ( talk) 17:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
"Alfreds more recent reputation on which so much national myth is based, of the kind identifying him as the founder of the royal navy... is an eighteenth-century perception" Anglo-Saxon England, ed. M. Lapidge, M. R. Godden and S. Keynes, (Cambridge,2000), p. 22.
I think Alfred the Great by Alfred P. Smyth also has a lengthy discussion of the matter but can't remember the exact reference.
Alfred may have re-organized how ships were 'recruited' but this represents a reorganization of the resources and methods involved in constructing a fleet not an outright establishment of a so called 'royal navy'. As pointed out the 851 entry shows a fleet in existence pre-dating his reign therefor can't have founded it now can he. Should really remove this reference to founding. (
86.43.221.101 (
talk)
20:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC))
Not sure where to post a Royal Navy-related article requsst, hope this is OK...came across G.F. Hastings while doing Geographic articles in BC's North Coast area; see here for a basic bio, by his rank and office as described there must be quite a bit more on him. Skookum1 ( talk) 04:17, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
i think that the suprimacy begins in the 18th century to the middle of 20th century —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.144.59.59 ( talk) 17:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion over the statement in the introduction which states The Royal Navy is the second-largest navy of the NATO alliance, in terms of the combined displacement of its fleet, after the United States Navy.
This is exactly right. It does not state the Royal Navy is the second largest navy in the world, which is the Russian Navy. It does not state the Royal Navy is the second largest navy of the NATO alliance in terms of number of ships. It states the Royal Navy is the second largest navy of the NATO alliance, in terms of the combined displacement of its fleet, which is exactly right.
May I also point out the source which makes this statement is a US military website so is considered a reliable enough source to be deemed correct.
I hope this clarifies this statement for those who displayed confusion over its meaning. Usergreatpower ( talk) 21:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I think the Nato plug about being the second largest navy is misleading. As there should also be a world ranking, I have just done a quick search and I think they would be about 6th, world wide by tonnage. Which is still better the UK overall military rank, now around 11th in the world. I think this will also change, as the retire the ASW carriers from service and before and IF the new carriers are built. I also think that this page should reference there current place in world navies, after noting they were the 1st for over two hundred years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.64.176.178 ( talk) 22:10, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Britishwatcher, if you are stating that other pages don't mention a ranking , THAT IS MY POINT, WHY IS IT THEN STATED ON THIS PAGE, NATO OR OTHERWISE 83.64.176.178 ( talk) 09:29, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Interestingly, the Royal Navy - reported weekend of 31 October 1 November in the 'daily telegraph' - had on a particular day in 2007 - a mere 4000 personnel at sea. Little Autochthony.
86.161.195.115 (
talk)
19:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I was wondering if there could be a grid made up of images for ranks etc much like on the page for the British Army, I personally find them informative and add that extra flair of detail to the page, thanks. SuperDan89 ( talk) 17:59, 06 April 2009 (UTC)
I attempted to insert the following:
The reputation of the Royal Navy has been negatively impacted in recent years due to a perceived policy of avoiding risk. This is evidenced by the surrender of Royal Navy forces off the cost of Iran in 2007 where they offered no resistance in comparison to a Royal Australian Navy incident where they resisted the Iranian Navy (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Iranian_seizure_of_Royal_Navy_personnel). More recently, the Royal Navy stood by and allowed Somali pirates to capture two British citizens and even tried to cover up the incident (see http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-navy-witnessed-somali-pirates-kidnap-british-couple-1820543.html); though the circumstances are different, this is in contrast to the US approach earlier in the year where they rescued their citizen and shot dead the pirates (see http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE53A1LP20090412). The criticism of this perceived cowardly attitude is more prevalent within the UK Army and UK Air Force and less so by the general public.
It was removed because it was unsourced yet there are links to articles in the paragraph. While I agree "reputation" and internal armed forces banter is hard to cite, at least the fact that the Royal Navy surrendered to Iranians without a fight and stood by while two civilians were taken hostage by Somali pirates should be included. Whoever reverted it, are you agreeable to the two incidents being included and compared to the actions of the Australian Navy and US Navy ? 86.153.71.219 ( talk) 14:30, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
as of October 2009 the regular navy personel stands at 39,100, the Voulnteer reserves number 3,500 personel giving a total of 42,600 active personel.
link to regular personel http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/apps/publications/pubViewFile.php?content=170.121&date=2009-11-26&type=html&PublishTime=09:30:01
Agreed? if not please express your concern. Bro5990 ( talk) 22:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
OK,
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/index.php?page=48&thiscontent=70&pubType=1&date=2009-11-23&disText=01 Apr 2009&from=historic&topDate=2009-11-23&PublishTime=09:30:00
then Click the "PDF 90 KB" to open the document. Its current from 1st of April 2009, and gives a number of 3,630.
is that Ok? tell me if the link dosent work and ill try another. Bro5990 ( talk) 18:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
“ Quote: ..sea power has never led to despotism. The nations that have enjoyed sea power even for a brief period - Athens, Scandinavia, the Netherlands, England, the United States - are those that have preserved freedom for themselves and have given it to others.”
The infobox includes a reserve personnel figure of 39k, this significantly overstates the strength of the reserve force since it conflates the regular reserve and the "volunteer reserve". I'd suggest that we restrict the figure to the volunteer reserve, at c3k since this is really the available manpower for deployment. Members of the regular reserve can volunteer for deployment but they're not in the main going to be recalled and outside the instance of total war are in a pretty fair position to appeal a recall in most cases.
The regular reserve is those ex-regulars still liable to a recall commitment; all former officers and ratings/ marines up to 5 years after leaving.
Grateful for thoughts?
ALR ( talk) 11:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 01:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Royal Navy → British Royal Navy — Royal Navy should be a disambiguation page. The British Royal Navy could be moved to either British Royal Navy or Royal British Navy. Why does Wikipedia have to be either Amerocentric or Eurocentric? - Marco Guzman, Jr ( talk) 23:56, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Absolutely not, it is the only only navy with the title; just google "Royal Navy" and you will not be directed to the Thai or Norwegian or Swedish Navy. Check out their websites & see whether they refer to themselves- it has always been called that the only exceptions being during the Commonwealth of Oliver Cromwell and in Mutiny on The Bounty in Charles Laughton's memorable phrae "I'll have yer hung from the highest yard arm in the British Navay!" (or was it keelhauled?) or Scipfyrd of course-- Streona ( talk) 08:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Vegaswikian ( talk) 01:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)}}
I have removed the line "To this day, Admiralty charts are maintained by the Royal Navy." because:
I thought the best thing to do was remove the sentence altogether.
Shem ( talk) 17:34, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't have much (well, any) experience at creating articles here, but I'd like to put in some effort to improving/expanding this article, but I don't know where to start really. I don't think this is a "featured" article, so there must be some room for improvement. Cortical ( talk) 14:14, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
What would be required for it to become a "good article"? Cortical ( talk) 17:01, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I see user:Buckshot06 has made a lot of substantial changes to the article, which appear to have been somewhat resisted by such users as user:BilCat. I was wondering why Buckshot06 had not sought consensus on the talk page before making such large changes to the article? I for one oppose users making substantive changes to the article without first attaining consensus. Yattum ( talk) 01:40, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
This article needs to incorporate, or at least mention the Wrens branch, and link to its wiki page ( Women's Royal Naval Service).
I was wondering if a picture of the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier be used in the article as it will be a large addition to the RN. Plus like the RAF page, maybe there could be a future section for the RN page to put all the collective future developments for the Royal Navy in one section. SuperDan89 ( talk) 13:06, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Why doesn't explains that article some defeats of RN during 18th century? e.g.: Spanish victory in the War of Jenkin's ear at "Cartagena de Indias" (1741); this battle involved 186 British ships, 50 of them were destroyed. The magnitude of battle drove government to censure the event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.39.55.116 ( talk) 14:13, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure why the sentence on the Battle of Cartagena de Indias was removed, but this issue involved much research and an ardous discussion some time ago, not to mention the obvious historical importance of the event. I wish new editors would respect previous work by others. This was the consensus sentence agreed earlier [3]:
As the wording of the paragraph has changed, I have inserted the sentence starting with "In the latter war, the British deployed a very large force..." JCRB ( talk) 18:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
The article claims the Royal Navy was the most powerful navy in the world from the nineteenth century to the middle of the twentieth century. But wasn't the Royal Navy the most powerful navy from the middle of the 18th century itself? If I remember right, their supremacy was never challenged by any other navy till WW1 after Britain won the seven years' war. They emerged the dominant colonial power by 1763 and that almost literally translates to naval dominance. Undoubtedly, it only became more powerful by 1815, but it still was the most powerful navy 1763 onwards, correct me if I'm wrong.
Basicly look at it like this, late 1760s - 1940s Royal navy most powerful on earth, during this time 1806-1913, Royal navy enjoyed a massive gap of naval supremacy over its other naval rivals. In other words 1806-1913 was the Royal navys golden age. It is also said the Royal navy was arguably the most powerful or atleast most well placed and prosporus navy in the world prior to the 1760s. eg 1710-1760s. Recon.Army ( talk) 17:24, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
"the dominant world power from 1815 until arguably 1954" Who put that line in there? It appears to have been 41.220.68.1, an IP that's currently blocked, for destructive/vandalizing edits. On that subject, though, It's kind of hard to concieve of the UK being the world's superpower at the end of WW2; by which most British forces were, on the field, subordinate to a US theater commander. (such as Operation Overlord commanded by Dwight Eisenhower) Even before WW2, the USA had already become the world's dominant economic power, and likewise held globe-spanning posessions. And let's also not forget that the Royal Navy technically and officially ceased to be supreme in 1922, with the signing of the Washington Naval Treaty, agreeing to parity with the USA. Overall, at best, Britain was ONE of the dominant world powers from that point onward; more likely, its unquestioned supremacy evaporated prior to World War I, where it found itself allied as equals with France and Russia in the Triple Entente. Once the UK could no longer maintain its Splendid isolation, it was clear it wasn't the dominant world power any more; the world would be without a clear superpower until 1945.
Thus as we can see, that period extended only from 1815 (Waterloo) to 1907. (Triple Entente) Royal Navy supremacy of the seas had a bit bigger range; from 1805 (Trafalgar) to no later than 1922. (Washington Naval Treaty) Just because there was no one else to be unquestionably supreme didn't mean the British Empire continued to be so. The pre-WW2 era showed strong evidence of being Multipolar in nature. Nottheking ( talk) 04:51, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Well-written, clear and well assembled, kudos to whoever had a hand in this! Huw Powell ( talk) 01:53, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
-Can anyone tell me why the article claims that the last RN Aircraft Carrier was HMS Ark Royal? HMS Hermes served as the flagship during the Falklands war. After the war she was converted to a commando carrier before finally being sold to the Indians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.15.159.145 ( talk) 17:11, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
in reviewing other navies on wiki, no one list reserves of mothball fleets, it appears that the author of this page wants us to believe that the RN is actually larger then it is.... ? current deploy-able ship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.190.226.178 ( talk) 10:47, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I think the current active fleet is less then 80, but the contributor to statement of 133, should correct it?
You cant change to size of the fleet based on what you think. if you provide reliable references stating that the fleet is 80 then by all means but its has to be referenced. the current fleet size is around that 130 mark that includes royal fleet auxilary. there is no way of knowing what readyness states each ship is at. (same as every other navy)
Having recently found a copy of a B.R.5 and being an ex Navel cook, would like to Know more about the Manual, My found copy is dated 17th April 1961 and superseded the B.R.5 dated 1945. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.112.165 ( talk) 06:32, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps a graph showing the numbers of ships in the RN through time could be compiled? Or one by displacement? This could help show the decreasing size of the RN over time, due to whatever reasons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carf1 ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Although the term "Ashes" is seemingly being used in various other sporting contexts, other than the original one (national rather than naval cricket teams), and the main other (rugby league), it might be worth pointing out that some (I would guess many) international readers will be misled by the article's present language into misunderstanding the Ashes as something that arose de novo from a naval tradition. If the term is arguably now to apply to every England against Australia contest, it seems superfluous to make reference to it herein, and conversely, if it is arguably restricted to national cricket or rugby league, it should also go. "On the third hand," the best way from a WP viewpoint would be a citation for the term, "Ashes" in a naval context: that is, does the RN and/or RAN themselves, or their members, or written game reports officially or colloquially name these naval cricket games that way? Any such citation? If so, might a consideration be, "called the Ashes in reference to the famous national cricket team rivalry of that name." FeatherPluma ( talk) 15:39, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Royal Navy (disambiguation) - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RM bot 18:46, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Phd8511 ( talk) 16:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
"The Royal Navy is a blue water navy and the second-largest navy of the NATO alliance" this is no longer true as the RN has no longer any aircraft carrier. The Royal Navy has been superceded in importance in the NATO alliance by the French Navy an is no longer a blue water navy. Maybe the whole paragraph should be rewritten by the original author to fit present situation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.78.0.134 ( talk) 15:23, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
If the Falkland Islands were to be invaded, who would provide power projection to help retake the Islands. Would it be the French or the Spanish? The answer to this question should determine if the Royal Navy is a blue water navy. Hmmmmmmmm....
I side with with rewriting the intro. as the Royal navy is no longer 2nd is size and power. I think this is misleading and out dates. The French, China and Russian Navies are larger. This is a fact that is easily referenced. Please update the intro, to reflect the current change in the Royal navies ability to project its influence around the worldJacob805 08:52, 25 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacob805 ( talk • contribs)
The RN's ability to project power is certainly not second to the US Navy any longer. The sole remaining "aircraft carrier" has no fixed wing aircraft and there is no guarantee that either of the Queen Elizabeth class will enter service with fixed wing aircraft within the next decade. The French Navy's ability to project air power at sea is far superior to that of the Royal Navy - possessing both one nuclear powered aircraft carrier and the formidable helicopter capabilities of the three Mistral class vessels. This reference in the text should be changed since it is completely outdated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.127.227.72 ( talk) 17:23, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Without air power, power projection at sea is severely limited. Not only does the UK have no fixed-wing aircraft at sea, it doesn't even possess maritime patrol aircraft operating from land. The UK's amphibious ships can only operate in permissive environments where there is limited opposition, and certainly no hostile air power - such as in Libya where the lucky presence of land bases (and primarily US air power in the initial stages and the presence of the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle) permitted air opposition to be quickly suppressed.
Seems you don't like some edit that i made. Put it here. If you need we can discuss it. Latestnewsupdate ( talk) 07:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
For the sake of discussing whether U.K got aircraft carrier or not, one must not have reverted my whole edits, including the Libyan operation, lack of warships, defense cuts and reduction of fleet, Bay class, Icebreaker info etc. the reversal of updates were totally uncalled for and a violation of rules. Latestnewsupdate ( talk) 01:45, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Next great thing to look out for is the war with Iran. Latestnewsupdate ( talk) 02:01, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
User:Latestnewsupdate please gain wp:consensus for your proposed changes and do not engage in wp:edit warring. I for one oppose your proposed changes as you propose the removal of large portions of informative and long standing material. In addition, your proposed changes seem charged with POV and your account's behaviour is suspiciously similar to the blocked sock accounts of banned user:Chanakyathegreat. Quite vivid blur ( talk) 18:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
I have restored the long standing introduction to the article as basic errors, such claiming the Royal Navy no longer has an aircraft carrier in service despite HMS Illustrious still being in service, were made. As I said in my edit summary, please check facts before making such edits. A note to some here, an aircraft carrier is still categorised as an aircraft carrier regardless of whether it is carrying fixed wing aircraft. Quite vivid blur ( talk) 19:01, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Its a dedicated helicopter carrier, not an aircraft carrier. Aircraft carrier indicates its main asset it utilises is fixed wing aircraft which the Royal Navy no longer has. With regards to you removing my update you really don't need reverences for the changes i made. The Royal navy lacks the capability to project air power from the sea a formidable asset that even the Spanish possess let alone the mid size carriers of the Russian and French Navies. It in no way shape or form has the capabilities of the French and Russian navies. They both possess a dedicated fixed wing carrier and even nuclear in regards to the CdG. They both possess super sonic aircraft on these carriers which the Royal Navy lacked even when they did have dedicated carriers. To say its power is second to the US really has no credibility. They possess a formidable reputation but not actual capability of the second most Navy in the world. Regards - Ahmed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.150.37 ( talk) 11:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Strictly speaking that is true it possesses air assets in the way of helicopters and a carrier in the form of a helicopter carrier. But you won't hear the US Navy saying they have 20 carriers if you include their helicopter carriers would you? Thats because they arent aircraft carriers. Really this whole arguement is based on the fact that the British resent the fact they no longer have an aircraft carrier so they call a helicopter carrier an aircraft carrier to bring back the credabilty of the ability of the Royal Navy. With regards to attack helicopters, yes they are technically air power but put it this way, if you are projecting air power it won't be in the way of a bunch of helicopters they are a support asset it will be in the way of fixed wing fighter aircraft. Pulling at straws here mate, the whole notion that the Royal Navy is still #2 in the world in regards to naval assets has no basis. At present time until the arrival of HMS Elizabeth and Prince of Wales it severely lacking in capability. Regards Ahmed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.137.105 ( talk) 11:18, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
What it says on Janes is irrelevant. By international standards it is NOT an aircraft carrier it is a helicopter carrier. If its dedicated aircraft were fixed wing aircraft then it would be but it isn't. Your argument has no basis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.137.105 ( talk) 11:50, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes very true there are many ways to project naval power but the greatest naval asset to project power other than SLBMs is an aircraft carrier. This is a major force multiplier that the Royal Navy no longer possesses. Yes like you have stated, they do have a lot of capability but not on par with the Russian and French and very soon also the Chinese navies. The very capabilities you have listed the French and Russian navies also possess but with the ADDITION of a mid sized aircraft carrier. If you still argue that with the conversion of HMS Illustrious to a dedicated helicopter carrier it is still a aircraft carrier then by your own definition the French with their Mistral class helicopter carriers are now aircraft carriers so the French navy has a fleet of 4 aircraft carriers! Your whole argument is utterly flawed there is no argument to make here do you see the Tarawa and Wasp class of the US Navy, Mistral class of the French Navy, Dokdo class of the ROK Navy or the Hyuga class of the Japanese Navy being called aircraft carriers? They aren't called aircraft carriers because they aren't. To be called an aircraft carrier is to be a dedicated fixed wing carrier like that of the Charles de Gaulle of the French Navy, Sao Paulo of the Brazilian Navy, INS Viraat of the Indian Navy, Giuseppe Garibaldi and Cavour of the Italian Navy, Kuznetsov of the Russian Navy, Principe De Asturias of the Spanish Navy and the USS Enterprise and Nimitz class super carriers of the US Navy. Now you could argue that the Tarawa class and their successor America class helicopter carriers are aircraft carriers because they carry fixed wing aircraft and are sometimes utilised as light aircraft carriers, however their primary role is to transport helicopters and troops and for them to be used offensively from the sea not that of a fixed wing carrier . The HMS Illustrious doesn't even have a fixed wing capability as a secondary role. In regards to its capability when they did even have the Harriers it is a subsonic aircraft that is in no way shape or form close to the capabilities of the Russian and Indian Navies MiG-29K, Rafale M of the French Navy and the F/A-18E/F of the US Navy. These are all multirole supersonic aircraft of the 4.5 generation of fighter aircraft. I am no longer going to continue this argument because I have clearly demonstrated the flaws in this article and my arguments are based on facts and the international standards of ship designations. I have also clearly demonstrated that the Royal Navy does not have the 2nd greatest power projection in the world because it is clearly lacking in capability. This won't be the case when HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales come into service in 2020-2024 but until then this article should reflect reality of present time and not that of the past and future.
Also on a side note, if the Argentinians decide to invade the Falklands I wish the so called '2nd most projectionable Navy' the best of luck! They will have to go the supposed inferior French Navy and ask for the use of their nuclear aircraft carrier and their fighters to establish air superiority of the Falkland Islands because they lack the capability, even though they are superior. What a joke honestly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.137.105 ( talk) 02:37, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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