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What became of RIC members after the creation of the Gardai? Did many join the new force? Did any RIC members face reprisals after disbandment?
"... there were many fewer Catholics in the higher ranks. " In English? Many fewer? I don't understand what this guy is on about! TheWickerMan
"Others however, faced with threatened or actual violent reprisals, fled with their families to Britain" (Quote from article as of today.) What evidence is there of reprisals or threatened reprisals? Cill Ros 22:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
To the ex-RIC men, that's exactly what they were; six counties of Ireland.
RIC was the first permanently-armed police force in UK. Trekphiler 10:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm just wondering here - could the RIC count as a
Gendarmerie? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
134.117.196.97 (
talk) 00:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I think your question is adequetly addressed here
Constabulary
They were more akin to a state militia, the functions of which they largely took over. -- Ponox ( talk) 01:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
The abovementioned "constabulary" disambiguation page no longer seems a useful guide to the nuances: it documents a confusing usage of one term for four different categories of police force, from a purely civil force (as in modern England) to a markedly paramilitary one. In any case, terms such as Police, Constabulary and Gendarmery can be ambiguous, as a force might have one name for historical reasons even after its role changes (as in the Canadian Mounted Police, called the 'Mounted Gendarmery' in French). I think it misleading to compare the RIC to a US state militia: it was a permanent security force that carried out policing towards civilians while operating under military discipline, rather than a reserve military force for emergencies (though it's correct that there's not always a sharp distinction between them, and a US militia can be thought of as fulfilling some of the roles carried out by a European or Latin American gendarmery).
Maybe it's easier if we start by considering what a gerndarmery was, and why we use that term at all rather than simply using 'police'. The defining trait of gendarmeries is that, historically, they fulfilled a role as a centralised, nationwide force dispatched to patrol 'lawless' countryside, particularly in areas prone to insurrection or invasion. During peacetime they could operate as any other police force would, though dispersed in small numbers to patrol areas too small and low-density for their own municipal police. Then, in times of conflict, they were the central state's first boots on the ground, doubling up as soldiers until the actual military could be mobilised and transported. An urbanised country like England (majority urban by 1850) had no need of a gendarmery, as its density allowed civilian municipal police to be the norm and it faced little serious challenge to the constitutional regime - it could afford to let civil policeling become generalised; whereas a gendarmery was designed to play an important role in a country like France, Italy or Spain: majority rural, low-density population with strong local identity, little automatic loyalty to the central state, risk of serious threat to public order via insurrection, banditry and/or invasion.
The interesting point is that we can compare the rural, paramilitary RIC to the urban, civilian DMP just as in France we can compare the urban, civilian Paris Municipal Police to the paramilitary, rural Gendarmerie Nationale (or in Spain the civilian Madrid Municipal Police to the paramilitary rural Guardia Civil, etc.). In fact, in the early 20th century French-speaking commentators *did* refer to the RUC as Ireland's 'gendarmerie; it seemed obvious to them that of the two types of police force they knew, the RIC was one and not the other.
Just my two cents. But I think it's worth keeping in mind that institutions in 19th century Ireland could indeed follow English trends, but did not necessarily. The RIC strikes me as one of those cases of convergent evolution, where a similar set of challenges led British authorities in Ireland to develop a comparable institution to their counterparts on the continent. Moranete ( talk) 16:10, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
Was this term ever used while the RIC existed? I would have thought the word "Poilíní" (or worse!) would have been used by Irish speakers at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.80.60 ( talk) 07:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
The balance of this article is out of kilter, with more space given to the brief War of Independence than to the three generations of the RIC's earlier history. Diomedea Exulans ( talk) 19:47, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Not a single mention of the lack of Catholics in senior positions in this deeply sectarian force. Why avoid the elephant in the room? Or of its massacres of innocent Irish people, most notably during the Tithe War in places like Castlepollard. 89.101.41.216 ( talk) 15:37, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
The badge I suspect is incorrect. Until the 1950s the crown used in artwork was a representation of the Tudor imperial crown. An actual representation of the real St Edward's Crown only came in, AFAIK, with Queen Elizabeth II, who suggested as badges were being updated to include her that it was a bit silly to use a representation of a crown that was only an artist's estimation of what the Tudor crown may have been like, and that they should use the real crown instead.
So badges pre-the 1950s shouldn't use St Edwards crown. All the crowns on badges and letterboxes I have seen in Ireland all use the Tudor Crown. The difference is the shape of the arch on the top. St Edward's crown uses two half-arches that curve down at the top. The Tudor crown in effect used a non-dropping arch. 213.233.148.31 ( talk) 22:29, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
References
Interesting article. One of my relatives was in the RIC but left for America and became a sniper in the army there whilst the war of independence and civil war were being fought, and then came back afterwards and joined the Gardaí. Which I think was pretty sensible. It reads like only about 600 left like him and a large proportion of the ones who stayed did not remain as police in Ireland at the end. I am a bit surprised I would have expected most of the RIC to have gone on to become Gardaí. Any idea of actual numbers of those who became Gardaí? Dmcq ( talk) 17:33, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
Contrary to the referenced newspaper article, The Royal Irish Constabulary by Jim Herlihy, 2016, Table E, pg 184, says a total of 180 ex RIC men joined the Gardai between 1922-1933. The vast majority, 160, in 1922. Of these 160, 14 were admitted directly with the rank of superintendent or higher. 5 of these officers had served as RIC district inspectors. Suckindiesel ( talk) 21:51, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
What became of RIC members after the creation of the Gardai? Did many join the new force? Did any RIC members face reprisals after disbandment?
"... there were many fewer Catholics in the higher ranks. " In English? Many fewer? I don't understand what this guy is on about! TheWickerMan
"Others however, faced with threatened or actual violent reprisals, fled with their families to Britain" (Quote from article as of today.) What evidence is there of reprisals or threatened reprisals? Cill Ros 22:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
To the ex-RIC men, that's exactly what they were; six counties of Ireland.
RIC was the first permanently-armed police force in UK. Trekphiler 10:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm just wondering here - could the RIC count as a
Gendarmerie? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
134.117.196.97 (
talk) 00:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I think your question is adequetly addressed here
Constabulary
They were more akin to a state militia, the functions of which they largely took over. -- Ponox ( talk) 01:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
The abovementioned "constabulary" disambiguation page no longer seems a useful guide to the nuances: it documents a confusing usage of one term for four different categories of police force, from a purely civil force (as in modern England) to a markedly paramilitary one. In any case, terms such as Police, Constabulary and Gendarmery can be ambiguous, as a force might have one name for historical reasons even after its role changes (as in the Canadian Mounted Police, called the 'Mounted Gendarmery' in French). I think it misleading to compare the RIC to a US state militia: it was a permanent security force that carried out policing towards civilians while operating under military discipline, rather than a reserve military force for emergencies (though it's correct that there's not always a sharp distinction between them, and a US militia can be thought of as fulfilling some of the roles carried out by a European or Latin American gendarmery).
Maybe it's easier if we start by considering what a gerndarmery was, and why we use that term at all rather than simply using 'police'. The defining trait of gendarmeries is that, historically, they fulfilled a role as a centralised, nationwide force dispatched to patrol 'lawless' countryside, particularly in areas prone to insurrection or invasion. During peacetime they could operate as any other police force would, though dispersed in small numbers to patrol areas too small and low-density for their own municipal police. Then, in times of conflict, they were the central state's first boots on the ground, doubling up as soldiers until the actual military could be mobilised and transported. An urbanised country like England (majority urban by 1850) had no need of a gendarmery, as its density allowed civilian municipal police to be the norm and it faced little serious challenge to the constitutional regime - it could afford to let civil policeling become generalised; whereas a gendarmery was designed to play an important role in a country like France, Italy or Spain: majority rural, low-density population with strong local identity, little automatic loyalty to the central state, risk of serious threat to public order via insurrection, banditry and/or invasion.
The interesting point is that we can compare the rural, paramilitary RIC to the urban, civilian DMP just as in France we can compare the urban, civilian Paris Municipal Police to the paramilitary, rural Gendarmerie Nationale (or in Spain the civilian Madrid Municipal Police to the paramilitary rural Guardia Civil, etc.). In fact, in the early 20th century French-speaking commentators *did* refer to the RUC as Ireland's 'gendarmerie; it seemed obvious to them that of the two types of police force they knew, the RIC was one and not the other.
Just my two cents. But I think it's worth keeping in mind that institutions in 19th century Ireland could indeed follow English trends, but did not necessarily. The RIC strikes me as one of those cases of convergent evolution, where a similar set of challenges led British authorities in Ireland to develop a comparable institution to their counterparts on the continent. Moranete ( talk) 16:10, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
Was this term ever used while the RIC existed? I would have thought the word "Poilíní" (or worse!) would have been used by Irish speakers at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.80.60 ( talk) 07:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
The balance of this article is out of kilter, with more space given to the brief War of Independence than to the three generations of the RIC's earlier history. Diomedea Exulans ( talk) 19:47, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Not a single mention of the lack of Catholics in senior positions in this deeply sectarian force. Why avoid the elephant in the room? Or of its massacres of innocent Irish people, most notably during the Tithe War in places like Castlepollard. 89.101.41.216 ( talk) 15:37, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
The badge I suspect is incorrect. Until the 1950s the crown used in artwork was a representation of the Tudor imperial crown. An actual representation of the real St Edward's Crown only came in, AFAIK, with Queen Elizabeth II, who suggested as badges were being updated to include her that it was a bit silly to use a representation of a crown that was only an artist's estimation of what the Tudor crown may have been like, and that they should use the real crown instead.
So badges pre-the 1950s shouldn't use St Edwards crown. All the crowns on badges and letterboxes I have seen in Ireland all use the Tudor Crown. The difference is the shape of the arch on the top. St Edward's crown uses two half-arches that curve down at the top. The Tudor crown in effect used a non-dropping arch. 213.233.148.31 ( talk) 22:29, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
References
Interesting article. One of my relatives was in the RIC but left for America and became a sniper in the army there whilst the war of independence and civil war were being fought, and then came back afterwards and joined the Gardaí. Which I think was pretty sensible. It reads like only about 600 left like him and a large proportion of the ones who stayed did not remain as police in Ireland at the end. I am a bit surprised I would have expected most of the RIC to have gone on to become Gardaí. Any idea of actual numbers of those who became Gardaí? Dmcq ( talk) 17:33, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
Contrary to the referenced newspaper article, The Royal Irish Constabulary by Jim Herlihy, 2016, Table E, pg 184, says a total of 180 ex RIC men joined the Gardai between 1922-1933. The vast majority, 160, in 1922. Of these 160, 14 were admitted directly with the rank of superintendent or higher. 5 of these officers had served as RIC district inspectors. Suckindiesel ( talk) 21:51, 24 February 2020 (UTC)