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Have cut two squadron references - the first is to No. 4 squadron AFC (a training squadron stationed in England) - according to the note this squadron used at least one B.E.8 (quite likely, as the B.E.8 was used as a trainer). The snag is that the B.E.8 and the B.E.12 are totally different types. The second is to "67 squadron RFC". This unit never actually existed - it was a designation given to "1 squadron AFC" at a time when the existence of the AFC was not officially recognised. The unit itself regarded itself as No.1 AFC (which unit is noted further down anyway). Worse, the reference is to 67 squadron RAF - a totally different unit in a different service.-- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 10:07, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
The point is that the B.E.12 is very often described as a quick cobble-up of a fighter dsigned to counter the Eindecker.
This is wrong on a whole rack of fronts, which need to be noted. (This is NOT my OR, but is based largely on Bruce).
The time factor - the B.E.12 was already flying bfore the "Fokker scourge" began anyway - it could not be fitted with synchronised armament (Vickers-Challenger in this case NOT C.C.) because same hadn't been developed. (The CC gear itself, another thing altogether, and something the Germans simply never matched, was more that a year away!) When guns were first fitted they were designed to fire upward - in the manner of the B.E.2c night fighter.
The fact is that by the time the Fokker scourge WAS underway the designers at the R.A.F were working on the F.E.8 - a much smaller aircraft than the B.E.12, and a pusher - so it didn't need to have a synchonised gun anyway. This gives the lie to the idea that (Bruce, as acknowledged in the text, points this out) a comparitively large notoriously clumsy aircraft was seriously put forward as a fighter (at least by its designers) in 1915. If Vickers and Darracq had produced their F.E.8s on time instead of nearly six months late (!) then it would have been roughly contemporary in time, as well as technology, with the D.H.2. - this is why the F.E.8 is relevant.
At the time the B.E.12 first flew the main shortcoming of the B.E.2c (from the point of view of the R.F.C) was NOT its stability and lack of effective defensive armament, as you might imagine - the Germans simply lacked a fighter until the eindecker came out, and until then no one in the RFC was worried about the idea of one of their aeroplanes being shot down by a German aeroplane - but its short range and limited payload. The formular was NOT "put a forward firing gun in it" (although that came later), but "Give it a more powerful engine, and replace the weight of the observer (usually left at home anyway) with a nice big fuel tank".
I'm NOT saying that the text as we have it necessarily says these things in the clearest most felicitous way possible - but this article certainly doesn't need the "missing the point" type editing that ruined our article on pusher aircraft. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:06, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
A read of the article comes across as fairly apologetic and/or defensive of the RAF in the building, release, and purpose.
Would suggest a more factual approach. The motives, etc when the aircraft was in design is likely lost in time.
The simple points of regardless of motivations, as a single seat fighter, it was highly ineffective. The original 2 seat was highly stable, but was not maneuverable (in the context of evasive action when under attack), with poor ability for return fire.
Simply stating the performance, and factual history would (in my opinion) a better approach. Gpronger ( talk) 18:51, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Royal Aircraft Factory B.E.12 article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Have cut two squadron references - the first is to No. 4 squadron AFC (a training squadron stationed in England) - according to the note this squadron used at least one B.E.8 (quite likely, as the B.E.8 was used as a trainer). The snag is that the B.E.8 and the B.E.12 are totally different types. The second is to "67 squadron RFC". This unit never actually existed - it was a designation given to "1 squadron AFC" at a time when the existence of the AFC was not officially recognised. The unit itself regarded itself as No.1 AFC (which unit is noted further down anyway). Worse, the reference is to 67 squadron RAF - a totally different unit in a different service.-- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 10:07, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
The point is that the B.E.12 is very often described as a quick cobble-up of a fighter dsigned to counter the Eindecker.
This is wrong on a whole rack of fronts, which need to be noted. (This is NOT my OR, but is based largely on Bruce).
The time factor - the B.E.12 was already flying bfore the "Fokker scourge" began anyway - it could not be fitted with synchronised armament (Vickers-Challenger in this case NOT C.C.) because same hadn't been developed. (The CC gear itself, another thing altogether, and something the Germans simply never matched, was more that a year away!) When guns were first fitted they were designed to fire upward - in the manner of the B.E.2c night fighter.
The fact is that by the time the Fokker scourge WAS underway the designers at the R.A.F were working on the F.E.8 - a much smaller aircraft than the B.E.12, and a pusher - so it didn't need to have a synchonised gun anyway. This gives the lie to the idea that (Bruce, as acknowledged in the text, points this out) a comparitively large notoriously clumsy aircraft was seriously put forward as a fighter (at least by its designers) in 1915. If Vickers and Darracq had produced their F.E.8s on time instead of nearly six months late (!) then it would have been roughly contemporary in time, as well as technology, with the D.H.2. - this is why the F.E.8 is relevant.
At the time the B.E.12 first flew the main shortcoming of the B.E.2c (from the point of view of the R.F.C) was NOT its stability and lack of effective defensive armament, as you might imagine - the Germans simply lacked a fighter until the eindecker came out, and until then no one in the RFC was worried about the idea of one of their aeroplanes being shot down by a German aeroplane - but its short range and limited payload. The formular was NOT "put a forward firing gun in it" (although that came later), but "Give it a more powerful engine, and replace the weight of the observer (usually left at home anyway) with a nice big fuel tank".
I'm NOT saying that the text as we have it necessarily says these things in the clearest most felicitous way possible - but this article certainly doesn't need the "missing the point" type editing that ruined our article on pusher aircraft. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:06, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
A read of the article comes across as fairly apologetic and/or defensive of the RAF in the building, release, and purpose.
Would suggest a more factual approach. The motives, etc when the aircraft was in design is likely lost in time.
The simple points of regardless of motivations, as a single seat fighter, it was highly ineffective. The original 2 seat was highly stable, but was not maneuverable (in the context of evasive action when under attack), with poor ability for return fire.
Simply stating the performance, and factual history would (in my opinion) a better approach. Gpronger ( talk) 18:51, 27 May 2021 (UTC)