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The popular nickname of the Van Doos in the Canadian army is, or was, "the Come-twicers", but I hesitate to add this piece of trivia to the article. Axel 18:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I always thought that the adjective royale followed the noun, as in Gendarmerie royale du Canada. So wouldn't the Regt normally be "Le 22e Régiment Royal"? (I know it isn't, and I am not proposing it be so; I am just curious as to this bit of French grammar). Thanks. -- SigPig | SEND - OVER 20:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
You are absolutly right, the name of the regiment should be: « Le 22e Régiment Royal d'Infanterie du Canada » ; however, it is in the tradition to use « Royal 22e etc», although I don't know why. Boris Crépeau 06:24, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Adjectives generally follow nouns in French but there are many exceptions. In the context of regiment names, when France had royalty, the word "Royal" was used almost as if it was itself a noun: thus among regiments of the Ancien régime we find Royal-Auvergne, Royal-Comtois, Royal-La-Marine, etc. I think the form "Royal 22e" was influenced by those old names, perhaps not with impeccable logic. But if one insists on "Royal" being an adjective, there is the word order in exclamations (Triste soirée!) or in expressions of admiration (Heureuse affaire!); maybe regimental names are considered exclamations since regiments always get orders barked at them. Axel 05:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The Royal 22e Régiment, regardless of logic, is a proper name. It is neither a translation nor a nickname nor a tradition. It was submitted by the Department of National Defence in 1928 and approved by the Head of State, the King. It is now the only name used in ANY language, including English, by the regiment, by the Canadian Armed Forces and by the Canadian Government. This said, I share the view that the examples of the French period were motivation in structuring the name of the unit. — VanDoo22 ( talk) 18:05, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Van Doos can also refer to a distant cousin, as in a cousin who is so far removed to be your second cousin. This should either be mentioned as part of disambiguation or as part of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.19.177.73 ( talk) 15:58, August 23, 2007 (UTC)
Is there any special dispensation for them to wear bearskins? Or is their use of the bearskin cap independent of the guards' use? 118.90.72.183 ( talk) 04:44, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
For civilian uses, particularly in the corporate world, French term for headquarters is indeed le siège social. However, for military or police organization the correct term is le quartier général. Please see http://www.r22er.com. So I changed that description. 70.55.142.35 ( talk) 04:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I did not add a non-free fair use rationale for this page for the Oka stare down image, as while filling out that rationale afaiac it failed one important criteria - I think it is possible that we could find free alternatives that illustrate the Royal 22e Reg. just as well or even better. I'll let someone else find/locate/choose an image to replace it with. Cheers. CraigWyllie ( talk) 04:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Van Doos is actually a shortening of vingt-deuxième [22e is the french equivalent of 22nd (twenty-second), not 22 (twenty-two)] - with the extra letters tacked on the end, the x is now no longer silent, but is pronounced like an s, and so Van Doos. Rowena Thwaite ( talk) 23:40, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
The article name needs to reflect common english usage on english wikipedia with "Royal 22e Régiment" linking to it. Therefore the article needs to be moved to "Royal 22nd Regiment". UrbanNerd ( talk) 22:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
[edit conflict]The current page should revert to its original title of Royal 22e Regiment. That is the name of the regiment decreed by the King in 1928. It is a government unit. One may recognize its nick names, and even improper titles, within the text, identifying them as errors. One may use such names to direct searchers to the proper title.
However, one may not logically CHANGE the proper name of a unit that has existed under that name since 1928 and whose name is determined by the administrative law of the country.
In arguments above, it is held that Royal 22nd Regiment is the usage that is "clearly the most commonly used in the English-language" (as per MOS:CA, WP:EN and WP:UCN). The justification is based solely on google media searches. A more valid measure would be to find out how the military deals with the name - how the Department of National Defence deals with it - how the government as a whole deals with it. As well, Wikipedia suggests that one should examine how academic experts, as distinct from non-specialized journalists, deal with it. e.g. David Bercuson (a card-carrying Anglo at the U of Calgary) writes about the Canadians in Korea. For approximately 80 years the name has been Royal 22e Régiment, although in a country where Anglophones were most often unilingual, and often resistant to the idea of Canada having a French-language unit, the English translation was often used. For example, CBC documents giving background on the military refer to the correct name. But at times their reporters and those for various other English media will anglicize the name. (At times, certain French reporters also wrongly attempt to translate Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. Some even used to write about British Columbia as Colombie canadienne! All of that is wrong in any language.) Surely Wikipedia does not wish to associate itself with such an approach. The regiment has only one name, its official title. All the other nicknames and improper translations can be inserted into the text for information. But the bottom line is that users of Wikipedia need accurate information. This includes giving the correct name (for English usage) of one of Canada's best known units. VanDoo22 ( talk) 21:07, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
__________
For those close to the issue this is of course blood-boiling question that they have had to deal with for decades. No offense intended. Here is another attempt at putting the question in Wikipedia terms.
There are two important criterion identified by Wikipedia's rules on titles : Reliable Sources and Neutrality
Counting the sources picked up in a wide-reaching google search are far from the reliable ones desired by Wikipedia. The most reliable sources in this case are (1)the various levels of government and public administrations; (2) academics who write about Canadian military matters (Bercuson is only an example - there are hundreds, all on the same page); (3) and lastly, the common name used by the organization itself. The internal correspondence only shows up on the internet in press releases, strategy papers etc. But these must be given very great weight since they reflect the work and terminology of a whole government. In the case of the Royal 22e Régiment, one can detect an unbroken progression in use of the French name from 1928 to the present where it is now an astonishing aberration to find a reference to the 1920s name of Royal 22nd Regiment in these milieux. I am sure that, if such were required, the Prime Minister's office would gladly direct a letter to Wikipedia. or issue a press release, indicating its view on the proposal by Wikipedia editors to disenfranchise the name of the Van Doos.
Neutrality is a key issue. Canada has had to deal with ethnic and cultural antagonism since its inception. The creation of the Royal 22e Régiment was a reaction, demanded by French-Canadians, against the refusal of the existing administrations to recognize the use of their language anywhere in the schools or administration under Federal or Ontario control. In the 1st Canadian Division, the 1,000(+) Franco recruits were dispersed into every unit, where most could not understand their leaders or their mates (see Chubby Powers memoirs - he served in WW1 in the RMR and was deeply offended at how his fellow Quebecers were treated). The R22eR was created as a result and has grown and expanded as a proud French-Canadian unit, cited by the Laurendeau-Dunton report in the 1960s , as an example for the federal civil service. The Van Doos have had to deal with almost a century of struggling to maintain their status as a French-language unit, while never dropping the ball in battle. The change of name by the King, in 1928, from RoyaL 22nd Regiment, in either language, to a French nomenclature, in either language, was a decision by Canada to affirm that in the future the regiment would continue to be recognized as a Francophone unit. Therefore the continued use of the 1920s era Royal 22nd is perceived (correctly) as a far-from-neutral refusal to recognize the Francophone nature of the unit. Journalists who use the term also generally fail to add expressions such as quote the Quebec-based Royal ... or the French-speaking Royal ....unquote. Their approach appears to aside the accomplishments in battle of Quebec's soldiers. Thus a change in the Wikipedia title of the unit, back to the era of the 1920s, would be an ethnic slur against one of Canada's best units and a denial of its Francophone nature ---- not to speak of being factually incorrect. On the other hand, journalists who are ill at ease with a French title (for example the names of Jean Chretien, Pierre Trudeau, Maurice Richard, Royal 22e Régiment), who nevertheless wish to signify the particular nature of the regiment, speak of the Van Doos. Quebec soldiers are more than pleased with that nomenclature that respects their identity (des vingts-deux), is not an ethnic slur and respects the rules of Wikipedia in regard to neutrality. VanDoo22 ( talk) 23:19, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi all As a newby I ask that you excuse my errors of protocol and format. However, because I appear to have jumped on a moving train, I hasten to provide my research in a format that you can use.
I have undertaken a Google search of title usage relating to the Van Doos, such as suggested by several on this site. I confirmed the reported findings. However, I have also attempted to "drill down" through the data to obtain the current linguistic usage of the title Royal 22nd Regiment. I used as criteria the date of publication, the language of publication and finally, in a supplementary search, the reliability of the data (i.e. using government web sites). Here are the results
NOTE: THE ABOVE DATA MISSED TWO SEGMENTS OF TITLES CAUSED BY THE COMMON ENGLISH LANGUAGE MEDIA PRACTISE OF IGNORING ACCENTS. THUS 329,000 PAGES FOR "Royal 22e Regiment" AND 10,500 PAGES FOR "Royal 22 Regiment" MUST BE ADDED TO THE DATA. The ammended conlusion, below, has been ammended to reflect the new data, not yet shown above.
I was
directed here by
Po' buster/
PhilthyBear
UrbanNerd to find out why my edit was reverted. I see this discussion, though, is about the article name, not the regiment's official name and its usage in both English and French. Regardless, I trust this source, the regiment's own web page, will quell UN's objections: "The English name 'Royal 22nd Regiment' is often seen, but strictly speaking is incorrect: only the French form is official."
[2] --
Ħ
MIESIANIACAL
14:33, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi, I have a couple of related questions regarding CBC and possibly NFB rich media in the external links. First, I see that we currently have four links to CBC rich media pages in their digital archives:
However, as indicated in the parentheses, the 2nd and 4th ELs are simply French versions of the preceding English webpage. I can't see a policy against this, but it seems to me to be unnecessary link clutter, as we do of couse have a French-language article on the regiment, for francophone readers.
Also, the NFB now has their own playlist for the regiment, here, which features excerpts from the documentary The Van Doos in Afghanistan.
I propose to cut the two French language CBC mirror links and add the NFB's to the bottom of the list. Are there any objections? thanks, Shawn in Montreal ( talk) 13:47, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Why the title is Royal 22nd Regiment, while even the first sentence of the article says that officially and in the usage in English the name remains Royal 22e Régiment? Even in the common usage in English, nobody use "22nd", every body say "22e" or "vandoo". Official publications in English also always use the official name (in French) nowadays. It is a proper name, ans as such, not translatable. All other Regiments who has English official proper names are not translated on the French Wikipedia. Obviously, it still should be explained that the name means "22nd", but it shouldn't be the title of the article. Amqui ( talk) 03:32, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
It is written : « The War of 1812: Défense du Canada 1812–1815,[17] Châteauguay, Ferme Crysler[18] »... These were VOLTIGEURS, light infantry battalions constituted by George Prevost and put under the command of Charles-Michel de Salaberry : they have nothing to do with the 22 Royal Regiment!!! -- HawkFest ( talk) 23:12, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 19:14, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I corrected a caption which mistakenly stated that Marshall Fayolle was the recipient of the regimental colours. He was actually *presenting* them at the request of Marshall Foch who had been made Honorary Colonel of the regiment.
Source: Official Facebook page of the R22R https://www.facebook.com/100R22eR/photos/a.549424398459103/549424505125759/?type=1&theater&hc_location=ufi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marc pasquin ( talk • contribs) 16:19, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
I have just corrected a change that had removed "Royal 22e Régiment" from the regimental identification in English. I do not wish to raise the debate of 2011 that ended up with titling the page Royal 22nd Regiment. But Wikipedia is a reference used by journalists, writers, students and other people who need to know what the right name of the regiment is. This issue becomes even more acute since the name of the regiment, and indeed the whole issue of having French-speaking regiments, has been long debated by those who don't want to pander to the French. But it is important for Wikipedia to get its facts straight or else it loses its value. We have no choice if some members insist on anglicising names. But it is essential, so as to be factual, that the "official" and "most widely used" name of the regiment nevertheless be available to inform those who look up Wikipedia for correct information.Apr 28th, 2020 in confinement! 70.80.20.70 ( talk) 20:38, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
_________ I understand the above deletion of the official name of the regiment. If it is an issue of "tone", the most useful change would be to put the correct official name of the regiment in the article heading, as in all other Canadian Wikipedia pages for English and French language regiments. However,in 2011, there were a few (3-4) opponents of such a solution, who were able to control the "system" to the extent of changing the correct heading that had been there for decades. However, I suggest as a model the page on the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry whose title is a bit long for use in ordinary English. The Wikipedia page nevertheless uses their proper name as the heading. Then the first sentence says "Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI, generally referred to as the Patricia's[a 1]) is one of the three Regular Force infantry regiments ..... " In the same spirit it would be easiest to put the proper full name of the Royal 22e Régiment in the heading of the article and text in the first sentence that deals with any title issues - such as with the Patricias. I have inserted in the R22eR page first sentence " Royal 22nd Regiment, officially in English or French Royal 22e Régiment, is one of Canada's .... ". However I don't have the courage to change the page title, despite the fact that it is the obvious solution. Many fail to recognize the importance of Wikipedia as a reference believed to be generally correct. The first sentence of an article is reflected in Google searches, Facebook pages, and other secondary sources. It is used by journalists, in Canada but also overseas as in NATO Europe or Afghanistan and Irak to write about the "Van Doos". It is used by speach writers. It is therefore necessary to ensure that its pages are correct. With this in mind, it is essential that the first sentence of the article on the Regiment include its correct name, rather than only a literal translation. A Footnote to give this essential information is inadequate. I have no pride of authorship, but I hope we agree that the obvious information in the first key sentence of the article must be factually ccorrect in regard to the Van Doos. 30 April 2020 70.80.20.70 ( talk) 02:17, 1 May 2020 (UTC) ____________________ Please excuse my reinsertion of the words you deleted. In my limited knowlege of Wikipedia, it is the only way I know of to initiate a talk with you. I examined your ref to WP Point. It says "If someone deletes from an article information which they call "unimportant" or "irrelevant", which you consider to in fact be important to the subject... do explain on the article's talk page why you feel the material merits inclusion. do not delete most of the remaining article as "unimportant"." I followed this rule to the letter. The correct name in English of the Van Doos is "Royal 22e Régiment" since 1928. I have not deleted anything from the article. I added 3 or 4 words. I have already pointed out in TALK that the name in English of the article's subject is important, indeed essential, giving the required references. A footnote that few people read, and which does not appear in copies of the first Wikipedia sentences used in other publications, does not do the job. On the contrary it widely promotes the false impression that "Royal 22nd Regiment" is the legitimate official name, rather than an incorrect literal translation, as explained in the footnote. You suggest changing the name of the page, which is the obvious solution and fully consistent with the Wikipedia treatment of all Canadian "French language Units" of the Infantry and Cavalry (see 12e Régiment Blindé du Canada, Régiment de Maisonneuve as examples of the large number of units in that situation). However, I hesitated previously to do this because of the History page opposition. In accordance with your most recent note, would you accept that I change the name of the page to its original name of Royal 22e Régiment, thereby avoiding the issue of explaining what its correct name is.? 70.80.20.70 ( talk) 16:11, 10 May 2020 (UTC) 10 May 2020
I found the reference to francophone institutions in Canada most relevant.In particular, its refernce to (e.g. National Assembly of Quebec rather than "Assemblée nationale du Québec"). if you google Quebec National Assembly it will bring you to the Quebec website that translate Assemblée nationale to National Assembly. http://www.assnat.qc.ca/en/index.html?appelant=MC. Thus the English translation of the name is used and promoted by the Quebec Government (probably because it includes in English the "national" aspect). Some traditionalist anglos prefer to use the title of Quebec legislative assembly. Wikipedia also has a page for them entitled : The Legislative Assembly of Quebec The very first paragraph explains that this is the name of the lower house of Quebec's legislature until December 31, 1968, when it was renamed the National Assembly of Quebec. This is not at all the situation of the Royal 22e Régiment which since 1928 has been struggling to get its francophone nature and name recognized by a minority of anglo Canadians, who prefer the term Royal 22nd as resistance to the creation of French-language units in the Canadian army. Canada's Official Language Act has decreed that all government elements including the Military must have names in both official languages. this has been done. But the traditional Combat Arms units of the Inantry and Cavalry have been excluded because their names reflect historic fact of Canadian history, whether English or French. Thus Princess Particia's Canadian Light Infantry is never translated into French - nor is the Royal 22e Régiment translated into English - unless a researcher mistkaenly takes the Wikipedia page as a credible reference, which the danger I have been adressing. Wikipedia, perhaps unwittingly, panders to ethnic biais by removing the original title page of the regiment in Wikipedia 10 years ago and now removing any information (other than a miniscule footnote) to advise researchers of the regiment's correct and most widely used name in English. You misunderstand my intentions in your reply. I, of course, feel that the page name should be changed to the official name but I also fear that such would involve a lengthy exercise that would still result in a decision such as shown on the history page where two or three "authorities" are able to simply wipe away legitimate input, quoting style manuals.(Wikipedia is the first to insist that legitimate exceptions can and should be made and the titling of ALL other Canadian military units, both English and French, in Wikipedia is the prefect example. Another solution would be a page entitled Royal 22nd regiment for the traditionalists, Like the one on the Legislative Assembly of Quebec. it would explain to them how and why the name was changed in the 1920s and perhaps include the significant changes in Canada's use of the french language in the Armed Forces, as well as the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism that used the Regiment as a model for the French language units of the Canadian Public Service as well as the oficial languages Act. All this has been thoroughly documented. But the experience of the R22eR Wikepedia page suggests that it has no appetite for such factual and politically neutral information. However, my hope was much more modest: simply to maintain the Wikipedia page as it was, containing in the first paragraph the essential information in regard to the regiment's name. The reason is not to "make a point" but to prevent misleading innocent reseachers, and other web sites, from using an unaccepted and ethnically charged identification of Canada's first Regular French-language unit. To delete this essential factual information, relegating it to a footnote, is in my view disloyal to the concept of Wikipedia. pushing it towards becoming a battle ground for promoting ethnic antagonism.The name of "Royal 22e Régiment" is used as the proper English name by the Government and Armed forces, by Termium, by the Canadian Encyclopedia and is by far the most used on Facebook. I did a google search (shown below) that reveals that the correct French name is currently used by double the number of English Google pages as is the English literal translation. If the "authorities" of wikipedia do not wish to recognize in 3 or four words the undeniable fact of the Regiment's correct official name, any further effort on my part would be futile. 12 May 2020 70.80.20.70 ( talk) 18:34, 12 May 2020 (UTC) .
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The popular nickname of the Van Doos in the Canadian army is, or was, "the Come-twicers", but I hesitate to add this piece of trivia to the article. Axel 18:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I always thought that the adjective royale followed the noun, as in Gendarmerie royale du Canada. So wouldn't the Regt normally be "Le 22e Régiment Royal"? (I know it isn't, and I am not proposing it be so; I am just curious as to this bit of French grammar). Thanks. -- SigPig | SEND - OVER 20:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
You are absolutly right, the name of the regiment should be: « Le 22e Régiment Royal d'Infanterie du Canada » ; however, it is in the tradition to use « Royal 22e etc», although I don't know why. Boris Crépeau 06:24, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Adjectives generally follow nouns in French but there are many exceptions. In the context of regiment names, when France had royalty, the word "Royal" was used almost as if it was itself a noun: thus among regiments of the Ancien régime we find Royal-Auvergne, Royal-Comtois, Royal-La-Marine, etc. I think the form "Royal 22e" was influenced by those old names, perhaps not with impeccable logic. But if one insists on "Royal" being an adjective, there is the word order in exclamations (Triste soirée!) or in expressions of admiration (Heureuse affaire!); maybe regimental names are considered exclamations since regiments always get orders barked at them. Axel 05:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The Royal 22e Régiment, regardless of logic, is a proper name. It is neither a translation nor a nickname nor a tradition. It was submitted by the Department of National Defence in 1928 and approved by the Head of State, the King. It is now the only name used in ANY language, including English, by the regiment, by the Canadian Armed Forces and by the Canadian Government. This said, I share the view that the examples of the French period were motivation in structuring the name of the unit. — VanDoo22 ( talk) 18:05, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Van Doos can also refer to a distant cousin, as in a cousin who is so far removed to be your second cousin. This should either be mentioned as part of disambiguation or as part of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.19.177.73 ( talk) 15:58, August 23, 2007 (UTC)
Is there any special dispensation for them to wear bearskins? Or is their use of the bearskin cap independent of the guards' use? 118.90.72.183 ( talk) 04:44, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
For civilian uses, particularly in the corporate world, French term for headquarters is indeed le siège social. However, for military or police organization the correct term is le quartier général. Please see http://www.r22er.com. So I changed that description. 70.55.142.35 ( talk) 04:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I did not add a non-free fair use rationale for this page for the Oka stare down image, as while filling out that rationale afaiac it failed one important criteria - I think it is possible that we could find free alternatives that illustrate the Royal 22e Reg. just as well or even better. I'll let someone else find/locate/choose an image to replace it with. Cheers. CraigWyllie ( talk) 04:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Van Doos is actually a shortening of vingt-deuxième [22e is the french equivalent of 22nd (twenty-second), not 22 (twenty-two)] - with the extra letters tacked on the end, the x is now no longer silent, but is pronounced like an s, and so Van Doos. Rowena Thwaite ( talk) 23:40, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
The article name needs to reflect common english usage on english wikipedia with "Royal 22e Régiment" linking to it. Therefore the article needs to be moved to "Royal 22nd Regiment". UrbanNerd ( talk) 22:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
[edit conflict]The current page should revert to its original title of Royal 22e Regiment. That is the name of the regiment decreed by the King in 1928. It is a government unit. One may recognize its nick names, and even improper titles, within the text, identifying them as errors. One may use such names to direct searchers to the proper title.
However, one may not logically CHANGE the proper name of a unit that has existed under that name since 1928 and whose name is determined by the administrative law of the country.
In arguments above, it is held that Royal 22nd Regiment is the usage that is "clearly the most commonly used in the English-language" (as per MOS:CA, WP:EN and WP:UCN). The justification is based solely on google media searches. A more valid measure would be to find out how the military deals with the name - how the Department of National Defence deals with it - how the government as a whole deals with it. As well, Wikipedia suggests that one should examine how academic experts, as distinct from non-specialized journalists, deal with it. e.g. David Bercuson (a card-carrying Anglo at the U of Calgary) writes about the Canadians in Korea. For approximately 80 years the name has been Royal 22e Régiment, although in a country where Anglophones were most often unilingual, and often resistant to the idea of Canada having a French-language unit, the English translation was often used. For example, CBC documents giving background on the military refer to the correct name. But at times their reporters and those for various other English media will anglicize the name. (At times, certain French reporters also wrongly attempt to translate Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. Some even used to write about British Columbia as Colombie canadienne! All of that is wrong in any language.) Surely Wikipedia does not wish to associate itself with such an approach. The regiment has only one name, its official title. All the other nicknames and improper translations can be inserted into the text for information. But the bottom line is that users of Wikipedia need accurate information. This includes giving the correct name (for English usage) of one of Canada's best known units. VanDoo22 ( talk) 21:07, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
__________
For those close to the issue this is of course blood-boiling question that they have had to deal with for decades. No offense intended. Here is another attempt at putting the question in Wikipedia terms.
There are two important criterion identified by Wikipedia's rules on titles : Reliable Sources and Neutrality
Counting the sources picked up in a wide-reaching google search are far from the reliable ones desired by Wikipedia. The most reliable sources in this case are (1)the various levels of government and public administrations; (2) academics who write about Canadian military matters (Bercuson is only an example - there are hundreds, all on the same page); (3) and lastly, the common name used by the organization itself. The internal correspondence only shows up on the internet in press releases, strategy papers etc. But these must be given very great weight since they reflect the work and terminology of a whole government. In the case of the Royal 22e Régiment, one can detect an unbroken progression in use of the French name from 1928 to the present where it is now an astonishing aberration to find a reference to the 1920s name of Royal 22nd Regiment in these milieux. I am sure that, if such were required, the Prime Minister's office would gladly direct a letter to Wikipedia. or issue a press release, indicating its view on the proposal by Wikipedia editors to disenfranchise the name of the Van Doos.
Neutrality is a key issue. Canada has had to deal with ethnic and cultural antagonism since its inception. The creation of the Royal 22e Régiment was a reaction, demanded by French-Canadians, against the refusal of the existing administrations to recognize the use of their language anywhere in the schools or administration under Federal or Ontario control. In the 1st Canadian Division, the 1,000(+) Franco recruits were dispersed into every unit, where most could not understand their leaders or their mates (see Chubby Powers memoirs - he served in WW1 in the RMR and was deeply offended at how his fellow Quebecers were treated). The R22eR was created as a result and has grown and expanded as a proud French-Canadian unit, cited by the Laurendeau-Dunton report in the 1960s , as an example for the federal civil service. The Van Doos have had to deal with almost a century of struggling to maintain their status as a French-language unit, while never dropping the ball in battle. The change of name by the King, in 1928, from RoyaL 22nd Regiment, in either language, to a French nomenclature, in either language, was a decision by Canada to affirm that in the future the regiment would continue to be recognized as a Francophone unit. Therefore the continued use of the 1920s era Royal 22nd is perceived (correctly) as a far-from-neutral refusal to recognize the Francophone nature of the unit. Journalists who use the term also generally fail to add expressions such as quote the Quebec-based Royal ... or the French-speaking Royal ....unquote. Their approach appears to aside the accomplishments in battle of Quebec's soldiers. Thus a change in the Wikipedia title of the unit, back to the era of the 1920s, would be an ethnic slur against one of Canada's best units and a denial of its Francophone nature ---- not to speak of being factually incorrect. On the other hand, journalists who are ill at ease with a French title (for example the names of Jean Chretien, Pierre Trudeau, Maurice Richard, Royal 22e Régiment), who nevertheless wish to signify the particular nature of the regiment, speak of the Van Doos. Quebec soldiers are more than pleased with that nomenclature that respects their identity (des vingts-deux), is not an ethnic slur and respects the rules of Wikipedia in regard to neutrality. VanDoo22 ( talk) 23:19, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi all As a newby I ask that you excuse my errors of protocol and format. However, because I appear to have jumped on a moving train, I hasten to provide my research in a format that you can use.
I have undertaken a Google search of title usage relating to the Van Doos, such as suggested by several on this site. I confirmed the reported findings. However, I have also attempted to "drill down" through the data to obtain the current linguistic usage of the title Royal 22nd Regiment. I used as criteria the date of publication, the language of publication and finally, in a supplementary search, the reliability of the data (i.e. using government web sites). Here are the results
NOTE: THE ABOVE DATA MISSED TWO SEGMENTS OF TITLES CAUSED BY THE COMMON ENGLISH LANGUAGE MEDIA PRACTISE OF IGNORING ACCENTS. THUS 329,000 PAGES FOR "Royal 22e Regiment" AND 10,500 PAGES FOR "Royal 22 Regiment" MUST BE ADDED TO THE DATA. The ammended conlusion, below, has been ammended to reflect the new data, not yet shown above.
I was
directed here by
Po' buster/
PhilthyBear
UrbanNerd to find out why my edit was reverted. I see this discussion, though, is about the article name, not the regiment's official name and its usage in both English and French. Regardless, I trust this source, the regiment's own web page, will quell UN's objections: "The English name 'Royal 22nd Regiment' is often seen, but strictly speaking is incorrect: only the French form is official."
[2] --
Ħ
MIESIANIACAL
14:33, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi, I have a couple of related questions regarding CBC and possibly NFB rich media in the external links. First, I see that we currently have four links to CBC rich media pages in their digital archives:
However, as indicated in the parentheses, the 2nd and 4th ELs are simply French versions of the preceding English webpage. I can't see a policy against this, but it seems to me to be unnecessary link clutter, as we do of couse have a French-language article on the regiment, for francophone readers.
Also, the NFB now has their own playlist for the regiment, here, which features excerpts from the documentary The Van Doos in Afghanistan.
I propose to cut the two French language CBC mirror links and add the NFB's to the bottom of the list. Are there any objections? thanks, Shawn in Montreal ( talk) 13:47, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Why the title is Royal 22nd Regiment, while even the first sentence of the article says that officially and in the usage in English the name remains Royal 22e Régiment? Even in the common usage in English, nobody use "22nd", every body say "22e" or "vandoo". Official publications in English also always use the official name (in French) nowadays. It is a proper name, ans as such, not translatable. All other Regiments who has English official proper names are not translated on the French Wikipedia. Obviously, it still should be explained that the name means "22nd", but it shouldn't be the title of the article. Amqui ( talk) 03:32, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
It is written : « The War of 1812: Défense du Canada 1812–1815,[17] Châteauguay, Ferme Crysler[18] »... These were VOLTIGEURS, light infantry battalions constituted by George Prevost and put under the command of Charles-Michel de Salaberry : they have nothing to do with the 22 Royal Regiment!!! -- HawkFest ( talk) 23:12, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 19:14, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I corrected a caption which mistakenly stated that Marshall Fayolle was the recipient of the regimental colours. He was actually *presenting* them at the request of Marshall Foch who had been made Honorary Colonel of the regiment.
Source: Official Facebook page of the R22R https://www.facebook.com/100R22eR/photos/a.549424398459103/549424505125759/?type=1&theater&hc_location=ufi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marc pasquin ( talk • contribs) 16:19, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
I have just corrected a change that had removed "Royal 22e Régiment" from the regimental identification in English. I do not wish to raise the debate of 2011 that ended up with titling the page Royal 22nd Regiment. But Wikipedia is a reference used by journalists, writers, students and other people who need to know what the right name of the regiment is. This issue becomes even more acute since the name of the regiment, and indeed the whole issue of having French-speaking regiments, has been long debated by those who don't want to pander to the French. But it is important for Wikipedia to get its facts straight or else it loses its value. We have no choice if some members insist on anglicising names. But it is essential, so as to be factual, that the "official" and "most widely used" name of the regiment nevertheless be available to inform those who look up Wikipedia for correct information.Apr 28th, 2020 in confinement! 70.80.20.70 ( talk) 20:38, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
_________ I understand the above deletion of the official name of the regiment. If it is an issue of "tone", the most useful change would be to put the correct official name of the regiment in the article heading, as in all other Canadian Wikipedia pages for English and French language regiments. However,in 2011, there were a few (3-4) opponents of such a solution, who were able to control the "system" to the extent of changing the correct heading that had been there for decades. However, I suggest as a model the page on the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry whose title is a bit long for use in ordinary English. The Wikipedia page nevertheless uses their proper name as the heading. Then the first sentence says "Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI, generally referred to as the Patricia's[a 1]) is one of the three Regular Force infantry regiments ..... " In the same spirit it would be easiest to put the proper full name of the Royal 22e Régiment in the heading of the article and text in the first sentence that deals with any title issues - such as with the Patricias. I have inserted in the R22eR page first sentence " Royal 22nd Regiment, officially in English or French Royal 22e Régiment, is one of Canada's .... ". However I don't have the courage to change the page title, despite the fact that it is the obvious solution. Many fail to recognize the importance of Wikipedia as a reference believed to be generally correct. The first sentence of an article is reflected in Google searches, Facebook pages, and other secondary sources. It is used by journalists, in Canada but also overseas as in NATO Europe or Afghanistan and Irak to write about the "Van Doos". It is used by speach writers. It is therefore necessary to ensure that its pages are correct. With this in mind, it is essential that the first sentence of the article on the Regiment include its correct name, rather than only a literal translation. A Footnote to give this essential information is inadequate. I have no pride of authorship, but I hope we agree that the obvious information in the first key sentence of the article must be factually ccorrect in regard to the Van Doos. 30 April 2020 70.80.20.70 ( talk) 02:17, 1 May 2020 (UTC) ____________________ Please excuse my reinsertion of the words you deleted. In my limited knowlege of Wikipedia, it is the only way I know of to initiate a talk with you. I examined your ref to WP Point. It says "If someone deletes from an article information which they call "unimportant" or "irrelevant", which you consider to in fact be important to the subject... do explain on the article's talk page why you feel the material merits inclusion. do not delete most of the remaining article as "unimportant"." I followed this rule to the letter. The correct name in English of the Van Doos is "Royal 22e Régiment" since 1928. I have not deleted anything from the article. I added 3 or 4 words. I have already pointed out in TALK that the name in English of the article's subject is important, indeed essential, giving the required references. A footnote that few people read, and which does not appear in copies of the first Wikipedia sentences used in other publications, does not do the job. On the contrary it widely promotes the false impression that "Royal 22nd Regiment" is the legitimate official name, rather than an incorrect literal translation, as explained in the footnote. You suggest changing the name of the page, which is the obvious solution and fully consistent with the Wikipedia treatment of all Canadian "French language Units" of the Infantry and Cavalry (see 12e Régiment Blindé du Canada, Régiment de Maisonneuve as examples of the large number of units in that situation). However, I hesitated previously to do this because of the History page opposition. In accordance with your most recent note, would you accept that I change the name of the page to its original name of Royal 22e Régiment, thereby avoiding the issue of explaining what its correct name is.? 70.80.20.70 ( talk) 16:11, 10 May 2020 (UTC) 10 May 2020
I found the reference to francophone institutions in Canada most relevant.In particular, its refernce to (e.g. National Assembly of Quebec rather than "Assemblée nationale du Québec"). if you google Quebec National Assembly it will bring you to the Quebec website that translate Assemblée nationale to National Assembly. http://www.assnat.qc.ca/en/index.html?appelant=MC. Thus the English translation of the name is used and promoted by the Quebec Government (probably because it includes in English the "national" aspect). Some traditionalist anglos prefer to use the title of Quebec legislative assembly. Wikipedia also has a page for them entitled : The Legislative Assembly of Quebec The very first paragraph explains that this is the name of the lower house of Quebec's legislature until December 31, 1968, when it was renamed the National Assembly of Quebec. This is not at all the situation of the Royal 22e Régiment which since 1928 has been struggling to get its francophone nature and name recognized by a minority of anglo Canadians, who prefer the term Royal 22nd as resistance to the creation of French-language units in the Canadian army. Canada's Official Language Act has decreed that all government elements including the Military must have names in both official languages. this has been done. But the traditional Combat Arms units of the Inantry and Cavalry have been excluded because their names reflect historic fact of Canadian history, whether English or French. Thus Princess Particia's Canadian Light Infantry is never translated into French - nor is the Royal 22e Régiment translated into English - unless a researcher mistkaenly takes the Wikipedia page as a credible reference, which the danger I have been adressing. Wikipedia, perhaps unwittingly, panders to ethnic biais by removing the original title page of the regiment in Wikipedia 10 years ago and now removing any information (other than a miniscule footnote) to advise researchers of the regiment's correct and most widely used name in English. You misunderstand my intentions in your reply. I, of course, feel that the page name should be changed to the official name but I also fear that such would involve a lengthy exercise that would still result in a decision such as shown on the history page where two or three "authorities" are able to simply wipe away legitimate input, quoting style manuals.(Wikipedia is the first to insist that legitimate exceptions can and should be made and the titling of ALL other Canadian military units, both English and French, in Wikipedia is the prefect example. Another solution would be a page entitled Royal 22nd regiment for the traditionalists, Like the one on the Legislative Assembly of Quebec. it would explain to them how and why the name was changed in the 1920s and perhaps include the significant changes in Canada's use of the french language in the Armed Forces, as well as the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism that used the Regiment as a model for the French language units of the Canadian Public Service as well as the oficial languages Act. All this has been thoroughly documented. But the experience of the R22eR Wikepedia page suggests that it has no appetite for such factual and politically neutral information. However, my hope was much more modest: simply to maintain the Wikipedia page as it was, containing in the first paragraph the essential information in regard to the regiment's name. The reason is not to "make a point" but to prevent misleading innocent reseachers, and other web sites, from using an unaccepted and ethnically charged identification of Canada's first Regular French-language unit. To delete this essential factual information, relegating it to a footnote, is in my view disloyal to the concept of Wikipedia. pushing it towards becoming a battle ground for promoting ethnic antagonism.The name of "Royal 22e Régiment" is used as the proper English name by the Government and Armed forces, by Termium, by the Canadian Encyclopedia and is by far the most used on Facebook. I did a google search (shown below) that reveals that the correct French name is currently used by double the number of English Google pages as is the English literal translation. If the "authorities" of wikipedia do not wish to recognize in 3 or four words the undeniable fact of the Regiment's correct official name, any further effort on my part would be futile. 12 May 2020 70.80.20.70 ( talk) 18:34, 12 May 2020 (UTC) .