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Through Pres. Gerald R. Ford's maternal line, Dorothy Ayer Gardner Ford, you can trace his ancestry back to a common ancestral couple shared with Mitt Romney, namely William Pratt Jr., 1609 - 1670 + Elizabeth Clark 1622-1636. William Pratt Jr. emigrated from Hertfordshire, England. Died in Connecticut. Married Elizabeth Clark in Connecticut. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.205.215.48 ( talk) 14:08, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I had no idea that the Romney's were related to the Pratts and the Smiths GneissRocks ( talk) 08:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
a lot of these entries are pure junk. this is a noteable political family. do we really want to include "kinsmen" who are businessmen in non-noteable companies, etc., as if they merit entry next to governors, congressmen, etc?? I have removed what were in my humble opinion the flimsiest sounding entries. but i really feel that a lot more weeding needs to be done.
I propose that the only people included should meet the following criteria: 1. Be substantial enough to merit their own wiki article (even if one has yet to be written) 2. Be related in a substatial way to the other family members (kinsman of...) doesn't cut it. if they are listed, it should be known how they relate to the others here, else it is an unsubstantiated mess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.126.73 ( talk) 02:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I put this in the discussion page: "David G. Reed, entrepreneur and socialite living in Salt Lake City." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsnow75 ( talk • contribs) 20:38, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I've merged in some overly detailed geneaological information from this version of the George W. Romney article. Wasted Time R ( talk) 11:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
See above. It should be 1947, not 1948!!! 16:06, 22 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.173.95 ( talk)
Per WP:RS and, in some cases, WP:BLP as well -- Wikipedia is not the place for folks to do genealogical research. Unless a reliable source makes a claim, it does not belong here. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 13:15, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
(od_ I have removed no properly sourced material per WP:RS. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 04:07, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
The claim that a Romney is a Pratt and therefore the Pratt family is intrinsically connected to the Romney family is absurd OR and SYNTH, and requires an actual, genuine WP:RS reliable source. Amazingly enough, I am "related" to at least severl thousand families <g> and I would suggest that anyone writing an article on my "genealogy" with such a weak argument would not get very far at all. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 03:49, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 04:33, 7 February 2012 (UTC)Brian Lamb - I found the name Pratt in your background[...].
Mitt Romney - [...] Yes. [...] And as a matter of fact, my grandmother was a Pratt.
--is much better than this:McNeil, Byron (1990 masters thesis), The history of the Ch of JC of LDS in Mexico, San Diego State University,
Quote]: In 1886 Elder Helaman Pratt purchased 49,000 acres in the name of The Trustee in Trust of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for $12,000. This is the present site of Colonia Juarez.{{ citation}}
: Check date values in:|year=
( help)
Nonetheless, both are sourced, encyclopedic material.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 11:26, 10 February 2012 (UTC)Roberts, Gary Boyd (the celebrated genealogist); Dearborn, David Curtis, 3rd (northern New England specialist) (1998), Notable Kin: ...1986-1995, vol. 2, Boston, Massachusetts: New England Historic Genealogical Society, p. 212,
Quote]: George Wilcken Romney, b. 1907, president of American Motors, Governor of Michigan, US Secretary of Housing and Urban Development; Gaskell Romney & Anna Amelia Pratt; Helaman Pratt & Anna Joanna Dorothea Wilcken; Parley Parker Pratt, Mormon leader, & Mary Wood; Jared Pratt & Charity Dickinson; [...].{{ citation}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list ( link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list ( link)
(od) You should check the RS/N board -- a "masters thesis" is not a reliable source. NEHGS is likely "reliable enough" even though articles are not "fact-checked" and older editions are notorious for "bad genealogy" in a few cases. Collect ( talk) 12:56, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
See [1], [2], [3], and so on. BTW, "scholarly influence" appears to have a Wikipedia usage of "being cited by scholarly journals" and not that the writer was influenced by any scholar <g>. And also [4] where Hirotoshi Takeda in his doctoral dissertation examines "‘Scholarly influence’ is broken down into ‘ideational influence’ or the influence that one has through publication and the uptake of the ideas presented in the publication, and ‘social influence’ or the influence that one has through working with other researchers." A thesis not cited by other scholars has no "scholarly influence" by such a definition. Collect ( talk) 13:53, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 00:41, 11 February 2012 (UTC)In 1876, Helaman Pratt and Meliton Trejo, a Spanish convert, traveled to Hermosillo, Sonora, where they baptized the first five members in Mexico.
In 1885, a group of nearly 400 colonists from Utah arrived at the northern Mexico Casas Grandes River and acquired property. Mexico's first stake (similar to a diocese) was created in Colonia Juárez in 1895. By 1912, more than 4,000 members had settled in Chihuahua and Sonora.
When Rey L. Pratt returned to central Mexico in November of 1917, he found the members had remained faithful in difficult living circumstances.
If Collect has a source calling into doubt that Helaman-Pratt-daughter Anna begat George R., he should bring it to the fore (and we'll inform celebrated genealogist Gary Boyd Roberts, who henceforth can asterisk the same!).-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 00:14, 11 February 2012 (UTC)Gaskell Romney, Mitt Romney's grandfather, was not a polygamist. He married Anna Amelia Pratt, the daughter of polygamists and the granddaughter of Parley P. Pratt, the apostle with 12 wives. Their marriage took place Feb. 20, 1895, in Dublan, Mexico.
Gaskell Romney had moved to Mexico with his parents in 1884 amid the proliferation of U.S. laws prohibiting "unlawful cohabitation." Anna Pratt was born in Utah but had emigrated to Mexico and lived in one of nine colonies established by the church over the border.
Gaskell Romney and Anna Pratt had seven children, including George Wilcken Romney, the former Michigan governor. He lived with his parents in Mexico until 1912, when the family returned to the United States.
George Romney married Lenore LaFount, who does not appear to have polygamy in her family tree. The couple, now deceased, had four children, including Mitt Romney.
I removed material without anything remotely approaching a reliable source for the claims made. That you wish to have them in a Wikipedia article seems rather to indicate that yo are unfamilar with Wikipedia policies. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 00:36, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
I am not extremely well versed in the best way to format family trees, but there must be a better way than nested unordered lists. Any recommendations ? -- RichardMills65 ( talk) 07:17, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
W rgd to your comment above, Which of my edits to the list article have you found problematic? Perhaps reference them in specific. Say, this one, where I restored list entries for Ann and Lenore you'd deleted? I apologize for the tone I've taken on the talkpage w rgd to such deletions. Yeah, my automatic reaction to such a deletion including this pair of list entries pertaining to the former first ladies of Mass. and Mich., respectively, with the DONTLIKEIT edit summary of "Wikipedia is not the place for genealogical research" is that it comes across as sorta, I don't know, pusillanimous. That is: seems a wussy thing to do to approach a subject on WP one finds minimally notability via such deletions instead of an article talkpage ping or a straight-up AfD. But for me to give such an impression voice (per "wp:DUCK" or whatever) is indeed in vio of wp:AGF so yeah, I apologize for that. IAC from now I'll try to avoid such personal attacks, since that's how you seem to take my airing of this sense or feeling about such edits. <clears throat> IAC, for 6 1/2 years eds. with knowledge about the topic have seen fit to include entries for these two notable ladies with the last name of Romney who have blue-linked wikibios about them; yet, according to wp:EDIT, any editor, no matter what level of sophistication or competence within an area being covered can float by and edit, going by whatever sources are currently on the page. Granted. Yet notice in particular the section on this most basic of guideline pages that references what to do with information such an editor might feel unsure about. If one endeavors to follow such basic editing principles in good faith then such errors of judgment as the one cited are understandable as long as they aren't continually repeated. OK? Truce?
(Btw, you may have missed it, but the time of your deletion, for example, the state of the article was such that the very first reference in the lede contained this source):
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 19:10, 3 March 2012 (UTC)“...Lenore Romney, ran for U.S. Senate in Michigan in 1970....”--- Business Insider
I agree with Collect that you do not have a consensus for adding this diagram. I also think the diagram is unnecessary - the article is already incredibly cluttered with a mixture of prose and diagrams. Adding one more doesn't help.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 23:55, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Per multiple discussions at WP:RS/N including [8]
Gist is that I highly recommend removal of any claims based on that Wiki. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 23:19, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Since the discussion on this article's talkpage seems to enjoy few visitors, I've posted an inquiry about the utility of this source at the RS Noticeboard.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 16:23, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Findagrave.com is a Wiki and expressly not allowed as a source. Find one which meets Wikipedia policy please. Collect ( talk) 20:50, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Is not a "vote" and two editors agreeing on something do not create a WP:CONSENSUS. If you wish to establish a consensus per WP:BRD the procedure is to start a discussion on the bold edit. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 19:39, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Editing is, by its nature, the determining of what belongs and what does not belong in an article. See WP:CONSENSUS if the concept seems odd. Wikipedia is not a repository of every factoid findable under the sun. Where there is a dispute, it is up to the person trying to ADD the new material to obtain a consensus for the addition ( WP:BRD). I trust this answers your questions. Collect ( talk) 01:25, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
"For Parley P. Pratt, see now Terryl Givens and Matthew J. Grow, Parley P. Pratt: the Apostle Paul of Mormonism (NY: Oxford University Press, 2011); also Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, 571; Reva Stanley, The Archer of Paradise (Caldwell, ID: the Caxton Printers, 1937); Peter L. Crawley, ed., The Essential Parley P. Pratt. Classics in Mormon Thought, 1 (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1990). For Pratt’s family, “Parley P. Pratt His Twelve Wives,” in Carter, Our Pioneer Heritage 17:205-52; and the superb Jared Pratt Family Association website, at http://jared.pratt-family.org/ (accessed Jan. 18, 2012)."--- TODD COMPTON ( link)
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 18:05, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Yes, of course, for such basic relationships as those among George Romney; his mother, Anna Pratt Romney; grandfather, Helaman Pratt; and great-grandfather, Parley Pratt; and such family members' birth and death dates, the venerable Pratt family association (founded by the professor Orson Pratt, who founded of Utah's genealogical work in the 19th century) is a reliable source. Likewise, self-published documentary information by the Bush family about the relationships among Jeb, Dubya, Poppy, Barbara, and Prescott, and these indiv.'s birth and death dates, would be considered reliable. Or self-published, non-controversial information about the relationship between Sir John Gielgud and Dame Ellen Terry from the Terry family.
(Admittedly, whether Wiki articles should exist for whatever family is a question best determined in such forums as RfD's: some families being more notable than others.)
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 21:58, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
What remains true is that genealogical trivia is not encyclopedic, and using an SPS source for it does not mean that it is reliably sourced per WP:SPS. Cheers. BTW, you do not need to mention me by name in every post as though I were a bogey of some sort. Really. Collect ( talk) 22:13, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
wp:SELFPUB: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications."
Todd Compton is an award-winning scholar in the relevant field, hence his self-published monograph of the Romney family should be considered reliable esp. for non-controversial assertions.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 20:19, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
This article falsely claims the US Romneys enjoy direct descent from George Romney the painter. However----
surer ground is reached with the arrival of George Rumley in Funness. In 1702 he married Jane burrow at Dalton Parish Church. Jane bore her husband four sons: John born at Millwood in 1703.... Of these John was the painter's father. Grandfather George was buried as from dalton in 1738 and his widow as "Widow Rumley" in 1741. ...
Thus, while awaiting extracts from the parish registers of Dalton, we have every reason to conclude that all Rumleys, Rumneys or Romneys in that parish were descended from George Rumley and Jane Barrow, married in 1702. Their son Thomas, born 1709, is in all probability the great-grandfather of Miles Romney.
---- A guide for genealogical research, ARCHIBALD FOWLER BENNETT, Genealogical Society of the CoJCoLDS, 1951, p154
--per the source I blockquoted above and other sources, the painter George Romney's grandfather was the great-grandfather (through his son Thomas Romney, 1709-1776) of Miles Romney.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 19:28, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
One reason the family relation to George Romney, the painter, would be mentioned in a history of this Romney family is as a marker of the family's social class in England. Relations of this sort are of great importance in many societies. Although this Wikipedia article is not necessarily of sufficient length or of sufficient coverage to mention this relation, the connection is mentioned in many sources as being of importance to understanding the history of the family. (See Life Story of Miles Park Romney, others.)
Furthermore, certain media sources, as alluded to above, get the fact wrong and state that the painter is Miles Romney's grandfather, and that is another reason to state the actual relation in this article. When a story is repeatedly incorrectly told, it is useful to have the correct facts available at hand.
The correct place to very briefly mention the relation, if it is mentioned, may be in the short paragraph about Miles Romney in the section "Family members."
By the way, is the scope of this article limited clearly enough to the branch of the Romney family that emigrated from England in the 1840s? KHearts ( talk) 11:48, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
The Romney name still resonates in the town [Dalton-in-Furness], thanks to George Romney, a first cousin of Miles' grandfather, who was one of Britain's leading portrait painters in the 18th Century, a rival to Joshua Reynolds.
A primary school is named after him, and two streets also bear the Romney name - Romney Park and Romney Avenue. His prestige would have rubbed off on the whole family, Walton says.
"Anyone living in the town with the name Romney would have been respected."
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 23:30, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Romney family article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was nominated for deletion on 29 January 2012. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Through Pres. Gerald R. Ford's maternal line, Dorothy Ayer Gardner Ford, you can trace his ancestry back to a common ancestral couple shared with Mitt Romney, namely William Pratt Jr., 1609 - 1670 + Elizabeth Clark 1622-1636. William Pratt Jr. emigrated from Hertfordshire, England. Died in Connecticut. Married Elizabeth Clark in Connecticut. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.205.215.48 ( talk) 14:08, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I had no idea that the Romney's were related to the Pratts and the Smiths GneissRocks ( talk) 08:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
a lot of these entries are pure junk. this is a noteable political family. do we really want to include "kinsmen" who are businessmen in non-noteable companies, etc., as if they merit entry next to governors, congressmen, etc?? I have removed what were in my humble opinion the flimsiest sounding entries. but i really feel that a lot more weeding needs to be done.
I propose that the only people included should meet the following criteria: 1. Be substantial enough to merit their own wiki article (even if one has yet to be written) 2. Be related in a substatial way to the other family members (kinsman of...) doesn't cut it. if they are listed, it should be known how they relate to the others here, else it is an unsubstantiated mess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.126.73 ( talk) 02:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I put this in the discussion page: "David G. Reed, entrepreneur and socialite living in Salt Lake City." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsnow75 ( talk • contribs) 20:38, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I've merged in some overly detailed geneaological information from this version of the George W. Romney article. Wasted Time R ( talk) 11:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
See above. It should be 1947, not 1948!!! 16:06, 22 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.173.95 ( talk)
Per WP:RS and, in some cases, WP:BLP as well -- Wikipedia is not the place for folks to do genealogical research. Unless a reliable source makes a claim, it does not belong here. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 13:15, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
(od_ I have removed no properly sourced material per WP:RS. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 04:07, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
The claim that a Romney is a Pratt and therefore the Pratt family is intrinsically connected to the Romney family is absurd OR and SYNTH, and requires an actual, genuine WP:RS reliable source. Amazingly enough, I am "related" to at least severl thousand families <g> and I would suggest that anyone writing an article on my "genealogy" with such a weak argument would not get very far at all. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 03:49, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 04:33, 7 February 2012 (UTC)Brian Lamb - I found the name Pratt in your background[...].
Mitt Romney - [...] Yes. [...] And as a matter of fact, my grandmother was a Pratt.
--is much better than this:McNeil, Byron (1990 masters thesis), The history of the Ch of JC of LDS in Mexico, San Diego State University,
Quote]: In 1886 Elder Helaman Pratt purchased 49,000 acres in the name of The Trustee in Trust of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for $12,000. This is the present site of Colonia Juarez.{{ citation}}
: Check date values in:|year=
( help)
Nonetheless, both are sourced, encyclopedic material.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 11:26, 10 February 2012 (UTC)Roberts, Gary Boyd (the celebrated genealogist); Dearborn, David Curtis, 3rd (northern New England specialist) (1998), Notable Kin: ...1986-1995, vol. 2, Boston, Massachusetts: New England Historic Genealogical Society, p. 212,
Quote]: George Wilcken Romney, b. 1907, president of American Motors, Governor of Michigan, US Secretary of Housing and Urban Development; Gaskell Romney & Anna Amelia Pratt; Helaman Pratt & Anna Joanna Dorothea Wilcken; Parley Parker Pratt, Mormon leader, & Mary Wood; Jared Pratt & Charity Dickinson; [...].{{ citation}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list ( link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list ( link)
(od) You should check the RS/N board -- a "masters thesis" is not a reliable source. NEHGS is likely "reliable enough" even though articles are not "fact-checked" and older editions are notorious for "bad genealogy" in a few cases. Collect ( talk) 12:56, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
See [1], [2], [3], and so on. BTW, "scholarly influence" appears to have a Wikipedia usage of "being cited by scholarly journals" and not that the writer was influenced by any scholar <g>. And also [4] where Hirotoshi Takeda in his doctoral dissertation examines "‘Scholarly influence’ is broken down into ‘ideational influence’ or the influence that one has through publication and the uptake of the ideas presented in the publication, and ‘social influence’ or the influence that one has through working with other researchers." A thesis not cited by other scholars has no "scholarly influence" by such a definition. Collect ( talk) 13:53, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 00:41, 11 February 2012 (UTC)In 1876, Helaman Pratt and Meliton Trejo, a Spanish convert, traveled to Hermosillo, Sonora, where they baptized the first five members in Mexico.
In 1885, a group of nearly 400 colonists from Utah arrived at the northern Mexico Casas Grandes River and acquired property. Mexico's first stake (similar to a diocese) was created in Colonia Juárez in 1895. By 1912, more than 4,000 members had settled in Chihuahua and Sonora.
When Rey L. Pratt returned to central Mexico in November of 1917, he found the members had remained faithful in difficult living circumstances.
If Collect has a source calling into doubt that Helaman-Pratt-daughter Anna begat George R., he should bring it to the fore (and we'll inform celebrated genealogist Gary Boyd Roberts, who henceforth can asterisk the same!).-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 00:14, 11 February 2012 (UTC)Gaskell Romney, Mitt Romney's grandfather, was not a polygamist. He married Anna Amelia Pratt, the daughter of polygamists and the granddaughter of Parley P. Pratt, the apostle with 12 wives. Their marriage took place Feb. 20, 1895, in Dublan, Mexico.
Gaskell Romney had moved to Mexico with his parents in 1884 amid the proliferation of U.S. laws prohibiting "unlawful cohabitation." Anna Pratt was born in Utah but had emigrated to Mexico and lived in one of nine colonies established by the church over the border.
Gaskell Romney and Anna Pratt had seven children, including George Wilcken Romney, the former Michigan governor. He lived with his parents in Mexico until 1912, when the family returned to the United States.
George Romney married Lenore LaFount, who does not appear to have polygamy in her family tree. The couple, now deceased, had four children, including Mitt Romney.
I removed material without anything remotely approaching a reliable source for the claims made. That you wish to have them in a Wikipedia article seems rather to indicate that yo are unfamilar with Wikipedia policies. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 00:36, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
I am not extremely well versed in the best way to format family trees, but there must be a better way than nested unordered lists. Any recommendations ? -- RichardMills65 ( talk) 07:17, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
W rgd to your comment above, Which of my edits to the list article have you found problematic? Perhaps reference them in specific. Say, this one, where I restored list entries for Ann and Lenore you'd deleted? I apologize for the tone I've taken on the talkpage w rgd to such deletions. Yeah, my automatic reaction to such a deletion including this pair of list entries pertaining to the former first ladies of Mass. and Mich., respectively, with the DONTLIKEIT edit summary of "Wikipedia is not the place for genealogical research" is that it comes across as sorta, I don't know, pusillanimous. That is: seems a wussy thing to do to approach a subject on WP one finds minimally notability via such deletions instead of an article talkpage ping or a straight-up AfD. But for me to give such an impression voice (per "wp:DUCK" or whatever) is indeed in vio of wp:AGF so yeah, I apologize for that. IAC from now I'll try to avoid such personal attacks, since that's how you seem to take my airing of this sense or feeling about such edits. <clears throat> IAC, for 6 1/2 years eds. with knowledge about the topic have seen fit to include entries for these two notable ladies with the last name of Romney who have blue-linked wikibios about them; yet, according to wp:EDIT, any editor, no matter what level of sophistication or competence within an area being covered can float by and edit, going by whatever sources are currently on the page. Granted. Yet notice in particular the section on this most basic of guideline pages that references what to do with information such an editor might feel unsure about. If one endeavors to follow such basic editing principles in good faith then such errors of judgment as the one cited are understandable as long as they aren't continually repeated. OK? Truce?
(Btw, you may have missed it, but the time of your deletion, for example, the state of the article was such that the very first reference in the lede contained this source):
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 19:10, 3 March 2012 (UTC)“...Lenore Romney, ran for U.S. Senate in Michigan in 1970....”--- Business Insider
I agree with Collect that you do not have a consensus for adding this diagram. I also think the diagram is unnecessary - the article is already incredibly cluttered with a mixture of prose and diagrams. Adding one more doesn't help.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 23:55, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Per multiple discussions at WP:RS/N including [8]
Gist is that I highly recommend removal of any claims based on that Wiki. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 23:19, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Since the discussion on this article's talkpage seems to enjoy few visitors, I've posted an inquiry about the utility of this source at the RS Noticeboard.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 16:23, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Findagrave.com is a Wiki and expressly not allowed as a source. Find one which meets Wikipedia policy please. Collect ( talk) 20:50, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Is not a "vote" and two editors agreeing on something do not create a WP:CONSENSUS. If you wish to establish a consensus per WP:BRD the procedure is to start a discussion on the bold edit. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 19:39, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Editing is, by its nature, the determining of what belongs and what does not belong in an article. See WP:CONSENSUS if the concept seems odd. Wikipedia is not a repository of every factoid findable under the sun. Where there is a dispute, it is up to the person trying to ADD the new material to obtain a consensus for the addition ( WP:BRD). I trust this answers your questions. Collect ( talk) 01:25, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
"For Parley P. Pratt, see now Terryl Givens and Matthew J. Grow, Parley P. Pratt: the Apostle Paul of Mormonism (NY: Oxford University Press, 2011); also Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, 571; Reva Stanley, The Archer of Paradise (Caldwell, ID: the Caxton Printers, 1937); Peter L. Crawley, ed., The Essential Parley P. Pratt. Classics in Mormon Thought, 1 (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1990). For Pratt’s family, “Parley P. Pratt His Twelve Wives,” in Carter, Our Pioneer Heritage 17:205-52; and the superb Jared Pratt Family Association website, at http://jared.pratt-family.org/ (accessed Jan. 18, 2012)."--- TODD COMPTON ( link)
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 18:05, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Yes, of course, for such basic relationships as those among George Romney; his mother, Anna Pratt Romney; grandfather, Helaman Pratt; and great-grandfather, Parley Pratt; and such family members' birth and death dates, the venerable Pratt family association (founded by the professor Orson Pratt, who founded of Utah's genealogical work in the 19th century) is a reliable source. Likewise, self-published documentary information by the Bush family about the relationships among Jeb, Dubya, Poppy, Barbara, and Prescott, and these indiv.'s birth and death dates, would be considered reliable. Or self-published, non-controversial information about the relationship between Sir John Gielgud and Dame Ellen Terry from the Terry family.
(Admittedly, whether Wiki articles should exist for whatever family is a question best determined in such forums as RfD's: some families being more notable than others.)
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 21:58, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
What remains true is that genealogical trivia is not encyclopedic, and using an SPS source for it does not mean that it is reliably sourced per WP:SPS. Cheers. BTW, you do not need to mention me by name in every post as though I were a bogey of some sort. Really. Collect ( talk) 22:13, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
wp:SELFPUB: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications."
Todd Compton is an award-winning scholar in the relevant field, hence his self-published monograph of the Romney family should be considered reliable esp. for non-controversial assertions.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 20:19, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
This article falsely claims the US Romneys enjoy direct descent from George Romney the painter. However----
surer ground is reached with the arrival of George Rumley in Funness. In 1702 he married Jane burrow at Dalton Parish Church. Jane bore her husband four sons: John born at Millwood in 1703.... Of these John was the painter's father. Grandfather George was buried as from dalton in 1738 and his widow as "Widow Rumley" in 1741. ...
Thus, while awaiting extracts from the parish registers of Dalton, we have every reason to conclude that all Rumleys, Rumneys or Romneys in that parish were descended from George Rumley and Jane Barrow, married in 1702. Their son Thomas, born 1709, is in all probability the great-grandfather of Miles Romney.
---- A guide for genealogical research, ARCHIBALD FOWLER BENNETT, Genealogical Society of the CoJCoLDS, 1951, p154
--per the source I blockquoted above and other sources, the painter George Romney's grandfather was the great-grandfather (through his son Thomas Romney, 1709-1776) of Miles Romney.-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 19:28, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
One reason the family relation to George Romney, the painter, would be mentioned in a history of this Romney family is as a marker of the family's social class in England. Relations of this sort are of great importance in many societies. Although this Wikipedia article is not necessarily of sufficient length or of sufficient coverage to mention this relation, the connection is mentioned in many sources as being of importance to understanding the history of the family. (See Life Story of Miles Park Romney, others.)
Furthermore, certain media sources, as alluded to above, get the fact wrong and state that the painter is Miles Romney's grandfather, and that is another reason to state the actual relation in this article. When a story is repeatedly incorrectly told, it is useful to have the correct facts available at hand.
The correct place to very briefly mention the relation, if it is mentioned, may be in the short paragraph about Miles Romney in the section "Family members."
By the way, is the scope of this article limited clearly enough to the branch of the Romney family that emigrated from England in the 1840s? KHearts ( talk) 11:48, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
The Romney name still resonates in the town [Dalton-in-Furness], thanks to George Romney, a first cousin of Miles' grandfather, who was one of Britain's leading portrait painters in the 18th Century, a rival to Joshua Reynolds.
A primary school is named after him, and two streets also bear the Romney name - Romney Park and Romney Avenue. His prestige would have rubbed off on the whole family, Walton says.
"Anyone living in the town with the name Romney would have been respected."
-- Hodgdon's secret garden ( talk) 23:30, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
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