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Other than "Ayn Rand" which has a reference, where are the references that indicate the artists are "Romantic Realists"? Looks to me like opinion. (not signed)
These artists who are listed as Romantic Realists should be removed. If there are to be any at all (which is worth debate, since Ayn Rand, if she were still around, might regard it as trading on her name, since the reason for this article is because it is a detail of her esthetic philosophy. Pejman definitely does not meet Rand's criteria (specifically, artwork that is expressive of a volitional state of being -- which is hard to attribute to most paintings anyway). Petrov might, but it's hard to see his work, to make a judgment. Newberry probably characterizes himself that way, though as a personal opinion I don't think most of his work fits the category. Rand of course is a Romantic realist, though even she said her work was sometimes not exactly that category. And Gaetano, I can't say one way or the other, since I haven't seen his work; though being a cover artist for Rand's novel isn't a necessary admission price to that style of art -- but I leave that one open. Thus I would argue that for sure #1 should be removed. Johngillis ( talk) 19:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
The quotes section in here needs to go; wikipedia is not a random collection of quotes. TallNapoleon ( talk) 03:10, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
While it's undisputed that Ayn Rand used the term "romantic realism" in reference to her own fiction, there are no references in this article to support the existence of a school or movement incorporating Joseph Conrad, Liam O'Flaherty, Ayn Rand and the other artists mentioned, let alone associating them with Goebbel's conception of Nazi art. The first sentence purporting to define the term has no citation to support it, and generally the article seems to be OR - more specifically an original synthesis arguing that authors who have used the term "romantic realism" at different times, in different ways, are discussing a unified artistic movement.
Unless there are citations out which provide support for the synthesis, I think this article should be proposed for deletion. KD Tries Again ( talk) 14:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again
I truncated the new opening definition, which itself I suspect is not taken from any sources. I don't know much about O'Flaherty, but I am convinced the novels of Dostoevsky and Conrad - our other two supposed examples of romantic realists in literature - do not have "mythical" elements, and who are the romantic heroes in Dostoevsky and Conrad? Raskolnikov? Lord Jim? KD Tries Again ( talk) 21:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again
I see that most of the discussion is under the "Literature" heading, but the term also has long standing in visual art criticism. For example, American Art of Our Century, Lloyd Goodrich, John I. H. Baur; Praeger, 1961, has a chapter (14) devoted to this movement: "Romantic realism, long a powerful movement in American painting, has unquestionably waned since 1940. It has never disappeared, and some of its finest examples are recent ones, but it is significant that most of the paintings reproduced here are by artists now dead or well past their middle years.... At its best, it is a form of realism modified to express a romantic attitude or meaning, but it has often escaped into what is just "good painting"--the sensuous manipulation of paint and painterly effects in a display of technical virtuosity." page 121 Also, some of the items under the literature heading seem to be about painting - specifically the Goebbels reference, and the reference to "artists" rather than writers. Something needs to be done about that. jenright —Preceding undated comment added 18:31, 28 November 2009 (UTC).
George J. Becker, in his book Realism in Modern Literature (Frederick Ungar, NY, 1980), writes specifically about "romantic realism" on pages 102-103. "Essentially exhibiting a paradox, this term has come into being among critics and historians in an attempt to characterize writing of the nineteenth century which is incompletely realistic.... In other words, subject matter and technique may be in line with the major impulses of realism, but the basic philosophical assumptions have not been adopted." In brief, he thinks they are realistic on the surface, romantic underneath. I think this goes to the statement, in an earlier version of this article, that romantic realism is basically a variety of romanticism. On this basis, apparently, Becker would like to use a different term for such writers: "This is not realism, and one wonders if it would not be wise to discard the term." I suppose the alternate candidate would be "realistic romanticism", but from a Google search that seems to have much less usage among critics and historians. Jenright ( talk) 19:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Big question: are the Multiple Problems gone? It looks to me like all the article's claims are referenced to reliable sources. This result was achieved by removing some things and documenting many others. Am I missing anything? Have we cleaned it up enough to remove the "Multiple Problems" notice? Thanks for your thoughts. Jenright ( talk) 04:46, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Someone has added a lot of material on 10 Aug 2011, much but not all of it about Ayn Rand. A lot of it looks like original research or opinion. Much of it is not actually about romantic realism in particular. Some of it is about "black realism" which is claimed to be a variety of romantic realism, but without citation. I think we need to be wary of overloading this article with material about Ayn Rand. Detailed discussion of her theoretical writings about art are probably better handled in an article about her philosophy. Jenright ( talk) 04:14, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
I propose that the article be reverted to either the 10 May 2011 version or the 18:49 2 Mar 2011 verson. The chief difference between those two versions is that TallNapolean eliminated some description of Rand's position. Jenright ( talk) 11:26, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Rather than simply revert the article, I tried to improve it. I deleted what I saw as the original research and opinion on Ayn Rand that had recently been added. But I added a specific quotation from her explaining what she saw as the method of Romantic Realism. And I added a link to the Wikipedia sub-article on her aesthetic philosophy. If you look at her aesthetic writings, she has relatively few comments about Romantic Realism in particular, even though she considers most of her fiction as belonging to that school. (Notably, she classifies Night of January 16th not as Romantic Realism but as Romantic Symbolism.) Jenright ( talk) 17:26, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
I think it is a bit odd to start off by saying that romanticism and realism are customarily seen as opposed to each other, if we don't give even a single example of any signifcant aestehtician, literary theoriest, etc. who has seen them so. I'm sure you could find someone appropriate -- Paul Elmer More seems like a plausible candidate. But without an actual reference here this looks like setting up a strawman. -- Christofurio ( talk) 17:32, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
In the See Also section, I removed a link to a non-existent Wikipedia article on the Quent Cordair Fine Art gallery. It appears an article once existed, but was deleted due to concerns about lack of notability. The gallery puts itself forward as a purveyor of romantic realist artworks, so I can see the connection to the article, but having a link to a non-existent Wikipedia article doesn't really make sense. Perhaps the gallery is notable enough for a Wikipedia article, but I guess someone would need to write it and, if challenged, make a case for notability. Jenright ( talk) 05:54, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Romantic realism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Other than "Ayn Rand" which has a reference, where are the references that indicate the artists are "Romantic Realists"? Looks to me like opinion. (not signed)
These artists who are listed as Romantic Realists should be removed. If there are to be any at all (which is worth debate, since Ayn Rand, if she were still around, might regard it as trading on her name, since the reason for this article is because it is a detail of her esthetic philosophy. Pejman definitely does not meet Rand's criteria (specifically, artwork that is expressive of a volitional state of being -- which is hard to attribute to most paintings anyway). Petrov might, but it's hard to see his work, to make a judgment. Newberry probably characterizes himself that way, though as a personal opinion I don't think most of his work fits the category. Rand of course is a Romantic realist, though even she said her work was sometimes not exactly that category. And Gaetano, I can't say one way or the other, since I haven't seen his work; though being a cover artist for Rand's novel isn't a necessary admission price to that style of art -- but I leave that one open. Thus I would argue that for sure #1 should be removed. Johngillis ( talk) 19:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
The quotes section in here needs to go; wikipedia is not a random collection of quotes. TallNapoleon ( talk) 03:10, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
While it's undisputed that Ayn Rand used the term "romantic realism" in reference to her own fiction, there are no references in this article to support the existence of a school or movement incorporating Joseph Conrad, Liam O'Flaherty, Ayn Rand and the other artists mentioned, let alone associating them with Goebbel's conception of Nazi art. The first sentence purporting to define the term has no citation to support it, and generally the article seems to be OR - more specifically an original synthesis arguing that authors who have used the term "romantic realism" at different times, in different ways, are discussing a unified artistic movement.
Unless there are citations out which provide support for the synthesis, I think this article should be proposed for deletion. KD Tries Again ( talk) 14:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again
I truncated the new opening definition, which itself I suspect is not taken from any sources. I don't know much about O'Flaherty, but I am convinced the novels of Dostoevsky and Conrad - our other two supposed examples of romantic realists in literature - do not have "mythical" elements, and who are the romantic heroes in Dostoevsky and Conrad? Raskolnikov? Lord Jim? KD Tries Again ( talk) 21:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again
I see that most of the discussion is under the "Literature" heading, but the term also has long standing in visual art criticism. For example, American Art of Our Century, Lloyd Goodrich, John I. H. Baur; Praeger, 1961, has a chapter (14) devoted to this movement: "Romantic realism, long a powerful movement in American painting, has unquestionably waned since 1940. It has never disappeared, and some of its finest examples are recent ones, but it is significant that most of the paintings reproduced here are by artists now dead or well past their middle years.... At its best, it is a form of realism modified to express a romantic attitude or meaning, but it has often escaped into what is just "good painting"--the sensuous manipulation of paint and painterly effects in a display of technical virtuosity." page 121 Also, some of the items under the literature heading seem to be about painting - specifically the Goebbels reference, and the reference to "artists" rather than writers. Something needs to be done about that. jenright —Preceding undated comment added 18:31, 28 November 2009 (UTC).
George J. Becker, in his book Realism in Modern Literature (Frederick Ungar, NY, 1980), writes specifically about "romantic realism" on pages 102-103. "Essentially exhibiting a paradox, this term has come into being among critics and historians in an attempt to characterize writing of the nineteenth century which is incompletely realistic.... In other words, subject matter and technique may be in line with the major impulses of realism, but the basic philosophical assumptions have not been adopted." In brief, he thinks they are realistic on the surface, romantic underneath. I think this goes to the statement, in an earlier version of this article, that romantic realism is basically a variety of romanticism. On this basis, apparently, Becker would like to use a different term for such writers: "This is not realism, and one wonders if it would not be wise to discard the term." I suppose the alternate candidate would be "realistic romanticism", but from a Google search that seems to have much less usage among critics and historians. Jenright ( talk) 19:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Big question: are the Multiple Problems gone? It looks to me like all the article's claims are referenced to reliable sources. This result was achieved by removing some things and documenting many others. Am I missing anything? Have we cleaned it up enough to remove the "Multiple Problems" notice? Thanks for your thoughts. Jenright ( talk) 04:46, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Someone has added a lot of material on 10 Aug 2011, much but not all of it about Ayn Rand. A lot of it looks like original research or opinion. Much of it is not actually about romantic realism in particular. Some of it is about "black realism" which is claimed to be a variety of romantic realism, but without citation. I think we need to be wary of overloading this article with material about Ayn Rand. Detailed discussion of her theoretical writings about art are probably better handled in an article about her philosophy. Jenright ( talk) 04:14, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
I propose that the article be reverted to either the 10 May 2011 version or the 18:49 2 Mar 2011 verson. The chief difference between those two versions is that TallNapolean eliminated some description of Rand's position. Jenright ( talk) 11:26, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Rather than simply revert the article, I tried to improve it. I deleted what I saw as the original research and opinion on Ayn Rand that had recently been added. But I added a specific quotation from her explaining what she saw as the method of Romantic Realism. And I added a link to the Wikipedia sub-article on her aesthetic philosophy. If you look at her aesthetic writings, she has relatively few comments about Romantic Realism in particular, even though she considers most of her fiction as belonging to that school. (Notably, she classifies Night of January 16th not as Romantic Realism but as Romantic Symbolism.) Jenright ( talk) 17:26, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
I think it is a bit odd to start off by saying that romanticism and realism are customarily seen as opposed to each other, if we don't give even a single example of any signifcant aestehtician, literary theoriest, etc. who has seen them so. I'm sure you could find someone appropriate -- Paul Elmer More seems like a plausible candidate. But without an actual reference here this looks like setting up a strawman. -- Christofurio ( talk) 17:32, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
In the See Also section, I removed a link to a non-existent Wikipedia article on the Quent Cordair Fine Art gallery. It appears an article once existed, but was deleted due to concerns about lack of notability. The gallery puts itself forward as a purveyor of romantic realist artworks, so I can see the connection to the article, but having a link to a non-existent Wikipedia article doesn't really make sense. Perhaps the gallery is notable enough for a Wikipedia article, but I guess someone would need to write it and, if challenged, make a case for notability. Jenright ( talk) 05:54, 17 December 2012 (UTC)