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Moving the discussion from the Hmong language page to here: I have a couple of thoughts on possible formats for the alphabet. Here's an example of how vowels might be formated -
Simple | Nasalized | Dipthongs |
---|---|---|
a – /a/ | aa* – /ã/ | ai – /ai/ |
e – /e/ | ee – /ẽ/ | au – /au/ |
i – /i/ | aw – /aɨ/ | |
o – /ɔ/ | oo – /ɔ̃/ | ia** – /iə/ |
u – /u/ | ua – /uə/ | |
w - /ɨ/ |
This is nice because there is some relationship between columns 1 and 2. Of course, it doesn't work across all three columns, but this might a good way to break up all 50+ consonants. Instead of the vowel headings, the consonants could be listed under: Simple (e.g. c)- Complex (e.g. pl) - Nasalized (nc) - Pre-aspiration (hm) - Post-aspiration (ch). Of course, it isn't that clear cut, but in many instances, the romanization makes use of a singe letter that can then be transformed (p, pl, np, ph [of course not all of these exist.) I'm just trying to figure out how to make it easy to understand at first glance. Looks like there are similar formatting problems on the other romanization pages. Nposs 01:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Stops | Nasals | Plosives | L |
Affricates | |||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
NY | N | M | P | T | D | R | C | K | Q | TX | TS | ||
Unmodified | /ɲ/ | /n/ | /m/ | /p/ | /t/ | /d/ | /ʈ/ | /c/ | /k/ | /q/ | /l/ | /ts/ | /ʈʂ/ |
Preceding <N> | np – /mb/ | nt - /nd/ | nr - /ɳɖ/ | nc - /ɲɟ/ | nk - /ŋg/ | nq - /ɴɢ/ | ntx - /ndz/ | nts - /ɳɖʐ/ | |||||
Preceding/Following <H>1 | hny - /ɳ̥/ | hn - /n̥/ | hm - /m̥/ | ph - /pʰ/ | th - /tʰ/ |
dh - /dʱ/ | rh - /ʈʰ/ |
ch - /cʰ/ | kh - /kʰ/ | qh - /qʰ/ | hl - /ɬ/ | txh - /tsʰ/ | nts - /ʈʂʰ/ |
<N> and <H> | nph - /mbʱ/ | nth - /ndʱ/ | nrh - /ɳɖʱ/ | nch - /ɲɟʱ/ | nkh - /ŋgʱ/ | nqh - /ɴɢʱ/ | ntxh - /ndzʱ/ | ntsh - /ɳɖʐʱ/ |
Besides fixing the formating, we need to figure out how to fit in: pl, f, h, v, x, xy, z (and their nasalized and aspirated versions.) Probably these (except for pl, npl, and nplh) could go on a separate table. Nposs 02:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
F | V | X | S | Z | Y | XY |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
/f/ | /v/ | /s/ | /ʂ/ | /ʐ/ | /ʝ/ | /ç/ |
There are few enough vowels that we can probably do a table like this
Vowels | monophthongs | Nasalized | Diphthongs | |||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
I | E | A | O | U | W | EE | AA | OO | AI | AW | AU | IA | UA | |
Mid tone | /i/ | /e/ | /a/ | /ɔ/ | /u/ | /ɨ/ | /ẽ/ | /ã/ | /ɔ̃/ | /ai/ | /aɨ/ | /au/ | /iə/ | /uə/ |
High tone <b> | /í/ | /é/ | /á/ | /ɔ́/ | /ú/ | /ɨ́/ | /ẽ́/ | /ã́/ | /ɔ̃́/ | /áí/ | /áɨ́/ | /áú/ | /íə́/ | /úə́/ |
Low tone <s> | /ì/ | /è/ | /à/ | /ɔ̀/ | /ù/ | /ɨ̀/ | /ẽ̀/ | /ã̀/ | /ɔ̃̀/ | /àì/ | /àɨ̀/ | /àù/ | /ìə̀/ | /ùə̀/ |
High falling tone <j> | /î/ | /ê/ | /â/ | /ɔ̂/ | /û/ | /ɨ̂/ | /ẽ̂/ | /ã̂/ | /ɔ̃̂/ | /âî/ | /âɨ̂/ | /âû/ | /îə̂/ | /ûə̂/ |
Mid-rising tone <v> | /ǐ/ | /ě/ | /ǎ/ | /ɔ̌/ | /ǔ/ | /ɨ̌/ | /ẽ̌/ | /ã̌/ | /ɔ̃̌/ | /ǎǐ/ | /ǎɨ̌/ | /ǎǔ/ | /ǐə̌/ | /ǔə̌/ |
Low-falling (creaky) tone <m> | /ḭ/ | /ḛ/ | /a̰/ | /ɔ̰/ | /ṵ/ | /ɨ̰/ | /ḛ̃/ | /ã̰/ | /ɔ̰̃/ | /a̰ḭ/ | /a̰ɨ̰/ | /a̰ṵ/ | /ḭə̰/ | /ṵə̰/ |
Mid-low (breathy) tone <g> | /i̤/ | /e̤/ | /a̤/ | /ɔ̤/ | /ṳ/ | /ɨ̤/ | /ẽ̤/ | /ã̤/ | /ɔ̤̃/ | /a̤i̤/ | /a̤ɨ̤/ | /a̤ṳ/ | /i̤ə̤/ | /ṳə̤/ |
Whee! Tables are fun! There are probably a few cells that would be greyed out but I'm not sure which ones. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 05:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Fricatives | Labial | Coronal | Dorsal | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
f | v | x | s | z | y | xy | |
/f/ | /v/ | /s/ | /ʂ/ | /ʐ/ | /ʝ/ | /ç/ |
Vowel mod: for some reason I like lowercase better (maybe because you would never see EE, etc.) Including the tone for each vowel seems excessive since it is a pretty intuitive system. Maybe the tones could be kept separate?
Vowels | Monophthongs | Nasalized | Diphthongs | |||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
i | e | a | o | u | w | ee | aa* | oo | ai | aw | au | ia** | ua | |
/i/ | /e/ | /a/ | /ɔ/ | /u/ | /ɨ/ | /ẽ/ | /ã/ | /ɔ̃/ | /ai/ | /aɨ/ | /au/ | /iə/ | /uə/ |
Also, is there do you have it set up to follow the IPA chart? It might be more intuitive to list the letters alphabetically within their positions. At the same time, that might be more confusing for other people. Nposs 05:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've updated the consonant template to include ML PL and DL. Rather than post it here, I've made a user page where it can be viewed (don't want to clutter up this page): User:Nposs/RPA Nposs 06:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Monophthongs | Nasalized | Diphthongs | |||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
i | e | a | o | u | w | ee | aa | oo | ai | aw | au | ia | ua |
/i/ | /e/ | /a/ | /ɔ/ | /u/ | /ɨ/ | /ẽ/ | /ã/ | /ɔ̃/ | /ai/ | /aɨ/ | /au/ | /iə/ | /uə/ |
This is how well. I guess it's not too well, but it's a start. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 21:09, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Around my area (Marysville, CA) White Hmong pronounce the vowel <o> unrounded, that is, as [ʌ] not as [ɔ]. I went to Sacramento and the Hmong I talked to said it [ʌ] as well. Where do Hmong say [ɔ]? Asia? The Eastern US? Or is it just individual variation and I haven't met a speaker who used the rounded vowel? Bryce 21:43, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Discussing this edit:
I must also add that the "tones" section was totally unsourced before I edited the page.
WhisperToMe ( talk) 03:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I came here from Hmong language, which gives the pronunciation of "Hmong" as "Hmoob" and of "Mong" as "Moob" (both in RSA, which is strange on its own because it feels like IPA should be used instead), to find that this article does not mention 〈b〉 as a grapheme used in RSA at all. So what gives? One of these two articles is either wrong, not up to date, or missing important information. For the time being, I'm assuming any time a 〈b〉 is used, it's the same as when a 〈p〉 iss uset in the zame gondegzd, pud with the 〈p〉 zount foizet. (in the same context, but with the 〈p〉 sound voiced). Hppavilion1 ( talk) 21:49, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Moving the discussion from the Hmong language page to here: I have a couple of thoughts on possible formats for the alphabet. Here's an example of how vowels might be formated -
Simple | Nasalized | Dipthongs |
---|---|---|
a – /a/ | aa* – /ã/ | ai – /ai/ |
e – /e/ | ee – /ẽ/ | au – /au/ |
i – /i/ | aw – /aɨ/ | |
o – /ɔ/ | oo – /ɔ̃/ | ia** – /iə/ |
u – /u/ | ua – /uə/ | |
w - /ɨ/ |
This is nice because there is some relationship between columns 1 and 2. Of course, it doesn't work across all three columns, but this might a good way to break up all 50+ consonants. Instead of the vowel headings, the consonants could be listed under: Simple (e.g. c)- Complex (e.g. pl) - Nasalized (nc) - Pre-aspiration (hm) - Post-aspiration (ch). Of course, it isn't that clear cut, but in many instances, the romanization makes use of a singe letter that can then be transformed (p, pl, np, ph [of course not all of these exist.) I'm just trying to figure out how to make it easy to understand at first glance. Looks like there are similar formatting problems on the other romanization pages. Nposs 01:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Stops | Nasals | Plosives | L |
Affricates | |||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
NY | N | M | P | T | D | R | C | K | Q | TX | TS | ||
Unmodified | /ɲ/ | /n/ | /m/ | /p/ | /t/ | /d/ | /ʈ/ | /c/ | /k/ | /q/ | /l/ | /ts/ | /ʈʂ/ |
Preceding <N> | np – /mb/ | nt - /nd/ | nr - /ɳɖ/ | nc - /ɲɟ/ | nk - /ŋg/ | nq - /ɴɢ/ | ntx - /ndz/ | nts - /ɳɖʐ/ | |||||
Preceding/Following <H>1 | hny - /ɳ̥/ | hn - /n̥/ | hm - /m̥/ | ph - /pʰ/ | th - /tʰ/ |
dh - /dʱ/ | rh - /ʈʰ/ |
ch - /cʰ/ | kh - /kʰ/ | qh - /qʰ/ | hl - /ɬ/ | txh - /tsʰ/ | nts - /ʈʂʰ/ |
<N> and <H> | nph - /mbʱ/ | nth - /ndʱ/ | nrh - /ɳɖʱ/ | nch - /ɲɟʱ/ | nkh - /ŋgʱ/ | nqh - /ɴɢʱ/ | ntxh - /ndzʱ/ | ntsh - /ɳɖʐʱ/ |
Besides fixing the formating, we need to figure out how to fit in: pl, f, h, v, x, xy, z (and their nasalized and aspirated versions.) Probably these (except for pl, npl, and nplh) could go on a separate table. Nposs 02:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
F | V | X | S | Z | Y | XY |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
/f/ | /v/ | /s/ | /ʂ/ | /ʐ/ | /ʝ/ | /ç/ |
There are few enough vowels that we can probably do a table like this
Vowels | monophthongs | Nasalized | Diphthongs | |||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
I | E | A | O | U | W | EE | AA | OO | AI | AW | AU | IA | UA | |
Mid tone | /i/ | /e/ | /a/ | /ɔ/ | /u/ | /ɨ/ | /ẽ/ | /ã/ | /ɔ̃/ | /ai/ | /aɨ/ | /au/ | /iə/ | /uə/ |
High tone <b> | /í/ | /é/ | /á/ | /ɔ́/ | /ú/ | /ɨ́/ | /ẽ́/ | /ã́/ | /ɔ̃́/ | /áí/ | /áɨ́/ | /áú/ | /íə́/ | /úə́/ |
Low tone <s> | /ì/ | /è/ | /à/ | /ɔ̀/ | /ù/ | /ɨ̀/ | /ẽ̀/ | /ã̀/ | /ɔ̃̀/ | /àì/ | /àɨ̀/ | /àù/ | /ìə̀/ | /ùə̀/ |
High falling tone <j> | /î/ | /ê/ | /â/ | /ɔ̂/ | /û/ | /ɨ̂/ | /ẽ̂/ | /ã̂/ | /ɔ̃̂/ | /âî/ | /âɨ̂/ | /âû/ | /îə̂/ | /ûə̂/ |
Mid-rising tone <v> | /ǐ/ | /ě/ | /ǎ/ | /ɔ̌/ | /ǔ/ | /ɨ̌/ | /ẽ̌/ | /ã̌/ | /ɔ̃̌/ | /ǎǐ/ | /ǎɨ̌/ | /ǎǔ/ | /ǐə̌/ | /ǔə̌/ |
Low-falling (creaky) tone <m> | /ḭ/ | /ḛ/ | /a̰/ | /ɔ̰/ | /ṵ/ | /ɨ̰/ | /ḛ̃/ | /ã̰/ | /ɔ̰̃/ | /a̰ḭ/ | /a̰ɨ̰/ | /a̰ṵ/ | /ḭə̰/ | /ṵə̰/ |
Mid-low (breathy) tone <g> | /i̤/ | /e̤/ | /a̤/ | /ɔ̤/ | /ṳ/ | /ɨ̤/ | /ẽ̤/ | /ã̤/ | /ɔ̤̃/ | /a̤i̤/ | /a̤ɨ̤/ | /a̤ṳ/ | /i̤ə̤/ | /ṳə̤/ |
Whee! Tables are fun! There are probably a few cells that would be greyed out but I'm not sure which ones. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 05:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Fricatives | Labial | Coronal | Dorsal | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
f | v | x | s | z | y | xy | |
/f/ | /v/ | /s/ | /ʂ/ | /ʐ/ | /ʝ/ | /ç/ |
Vowel mod: for some reason I like lowercase better (maybe because you would never see EE, etc.) Including the tone for each vowel seems excessive since it is a pretty intuitive system. Maybe the tones could be kept separate?
Vowels | Monophthongs | Nasalized | Diphthongs | |||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
i | e | a | o | u | w | ee | aa* | oo | ai | aw | au | ia** | ua | |
/i/ | /e/ | /a/ | /ɔ/ | /u/ | /ɨ/ | /ẽ/ | /ã/ | /ɔ̃/ | /ai/ | /aɨ/ | /au/ | /iə/ | /uə/ |
Also, is there do you have it set up to follow the IPA chart? It might be more intuitive to list the letters alphabetically within their positions. At the same time, that might be more confusing for other people. Nposs 05:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've updated the consonant template to include ML PL and DL. Rather than post it here, I've made a user page where it can be viewed (don't want to clutter up this page): User:Nposs/RPA Nposs 06:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Monophthongs | Nasalized | Diphthongs | |||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
i | e | a | o | u | w | ee | aa | oo | ai | aw | au | ia | ua |
/i/ | /e/ | /a/ | /ɔ/ | /u/ | /ɨ/ | /ẽ/ | /ã/ | /ɔ̃/ | /ai/ | /aɨ/ | /au/ | /iə/ | /uə/ |
This is how well. I guess it's not too well, but it's a start. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 21:09, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Around my area (Marysville, CA) White Hmong pronounce the vowel <o> unrounded, that is, as [ʌ] not as [ɔ]. I went to Sacramento and the Hmong I talked to said it [ʌ] as well. Where do Hmong say [ɔ]? Asia? The Eastern US? Or is it just individual variation and I haven't met a speaker who used the rounded vowel? Bryce 21:43, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Discussing this edit:
I must also add that the "tones" section was totally unsourced before I edited the page.
WhisperToMe ( talk) 03:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I came here from Hmong language, which gives the pronunciation of "Hmong" as "Hmoob" and of "Mong" as "Moob" (both in RSA, which is strange on its own because it feels like IPA should be used instead), to find that this article does not mention 〈b〉 as a grapheme used in RSA at all. So what gives? One of these two articles is either wrong, not up to date, or missing important information. For the time being, I'm assuming any time a 〈b〉 is used, it's the same as when a 〈p〉 iss uset in the zame gondegzd, pud with the 〈p〉 zount foizet. (in the same context, but with the 〈p〉 sound voiced). Hppavilion1 ( talk) 21:49, 30 October 2016 (UTC)