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This article needs filling in a lot of blanks (obviously). Be sure to mention clitic doubling and compare to other Romance languages. -- Pablo D. Flores 15:40, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Hmm... that's an interesting theory Chameleon, because the Romanian Wikipedia is well-over the 10,000 articles figure, while the Greek Wiki, the Hungarian Wiki, the Lithuanian Wiki, the Icelandic Wiki and so on are all still below 10,000 articles. There's plenty of Romanian users on this English Wiki also---it's just that there are too many other articles that attract attention. A Romanian grammar article reminds too many Romanians of those boring high school classes. Alexander 007 15:22, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
i've changed some stuff related to the cases, of which there should be 3, not 5... i'm using the terms 'Direct' for nominative/accusative and 'Indirect' for dative/genitive, as was put on the Latin page... this better reflects the current situation for Romanian cases Exit 06:04, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
It is often said that the definite article in Romanian is a clitic (an enclitic to be specific). However, I wonder if this is correct, as it seems to me that it behaves more like an affix. I am a native Romanian speaker, but I can't figure this one out. -- AdiJapan 05:53, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
omul = man.DEF = the man bunul om = good.DEF man = the good man *bun omul
this could possibly have implications for the romanian case system as really the bulk of case marking (except feminine singular genitive/dative) is on the cliticized definite article
Exit 17:24, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think the definite article in Romanian is a clitic. It is part of the noun declension. A clitic is a word that doesn't have its own accent, but is attached to the following or preceding word, in the sense that they are pronounced as a single word. However, a clitic is an independent word morphologically and syntactically. The Romanian definite article changes its form according to the noun it determines, compare om - omul with munte - muntele. Both nouns are masculine singular, so if the article were a clitic, it should have had the same form in both cases. In linguistics, this declension category is called spesies (the same way as case stands for nominative, accusative, etc., spesies stands for definite and indefinite). About the example of bunul om, the explanation is that Romanian has no spesies congruence - that is, in one constituent, only one element receives the spesies marker (article), and that element is the first one. In Basque there is the same situation, except that the spesies, case and number markers go to the last element of the noun phrase. Compare:
gizon = man,
gizona = the man,
gizon on = good man,
gizon ona = the good man.
On the other hand, Swedish does have spesies congruence:
man = man,
mannen = the man,
god man = good man,
den goda mannen = the good man.
So I think the Romanian definite article is not a clitic, but part of the noun (and adjective) declension. Dumiac 20:04, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
There is no mention of cacophony. Besides, from DEX Online:
Is this attitude common?
At the moment, there is utter nonsense about the Latin pronoun 'ille'. It goes like this if my brain's right:
sg.
N. ille, illa, illud
G. illius, illius, illius
D. illi, illi, illi
A. illum, illam, illud
Ab. illo, illa, illo
pl.
N. illi, illae, illa
G. illorum, illarum, illorum
D. illis, illis, illis
A. illos, illas, illa
Ab. illis, illis, illis
As I don't really know what the etymology is, I haven't corrected the article. It's not correct at the moment, this is for sure. 217.50.143.160 21:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The table of pronouns should be expanded to list the feminine forms. Also, the section on prepositions should be expanded with an explicit list of prepositions that take the genitive — including, specifically, prepositions requiring a feminine genitive form when the object is a pronoun (e.g., împotriva mea). Richwales 18:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Also, unless the grammar rules got updated since I did school, Romanian has separate possessive pronouns and adjectives from genitive case personal pronouns only. The genitive pronouns are only at 3rd person: lui/ei/lor, and can be preceded by a possessive article: al/a/ai/ale. The possessive adjectives are meu/mea/tău/ta/său/sa/nostru/noastră/vostru/voastră and so on. Note that său/sa/săi/sale haven't been mentioned in the main article, but they exist. Său/sa/săi/sale have the same semantics as lui/ei/lor but they agree with the possessed object, not with the possessor. They're less common and rather used in written speech than spoken, or for stylistic reasons. They're analogous to French son/sa/ses. If the possessive adjectives are preceded by al/a/ai/ale, they become standalone pronouns. Also note how there doesn't exist a possessive adjective for 3rd person plural.-- Printz150 ( talk) 12:09, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
The page was just updated with a statement saying that the pronoun dumneata "is only used when addressing a person that one finds undesirable, or not worthy of respect, but with whom one cannot resort to using the simple personal pronoun tu (you), due to not actually being acquainted with that person." Can someone cite a source for this? Richwales ( talk) 17:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
“ | What happened is that at some point only using the formal pronoun "dumneata" wasn't seen as polite enough, but you also had to use plural just like in French. This way "dumneata" fell out of use. Its contraction "mata" is probably much more used, but it is very informal, and to me it seems that people use it only when talking with very old villagers. No kidding. Being polite now means using "dumneavoastră" and putting the verb to second person plural even when you talk to a single person. I personally hate and would preffer "dumneata" it but nobody asked me. (sic) | ” |
Attribute: Mi-am luat o fustă mamă-mamă. I bought a cool dress.
I've never heard this expression before in my life. Can someone confirm? 142.167.83.171 ( talk) 14:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Mamă-mamă is an interjection only encountered in Southern Romania (typically East of Bucharest), mostly amongst lower class rural inhabitants. If you're from Ardeal or Banat or Oltenia or Moldova, it's most likely you've never heard it. -- Xanthar ( talk) 23:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
seem to be missing entirely —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.92.42.223 ( talk) 22:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I added a "discuss" tag to this: "The polite pronouns are derived from the old Romanian expression for addressing royalty[dubious – discuss], Domnia Ta, Domnia Voastră, Domnia Lui, etc. (Your Majesty, Your Majesty (plural), His Majesty)." To me it sounds dubious, at least it needs to be referenced. Logically, it would look that royalty was addressed in a polite way, not that the polite form was derived from how royalty was addressed. Also, the translation as "Majesty" is over the top, maybe "Lord" would sound more accurate, although there were not many lords in Romanian history as far as I know. Any input? Ultimately where is the word "domn" coming from? Is it similar to "Don" from Italian? man with one red shoe 02:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Will someone please explain to me how third person polite pronouns are used? Or in what context? I mean, do you use them to talk about people you would address by using second person polite pronouns? I understand the difference between formal and informal pronouns. My mother language is Spanish, and it makes that distinction in the second person. But I can't see how this works in the third person. Thanks. Eduarodi ( talk) 16:44, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
It would probably be simpler to replace "nominative" and "accusative" in discussions about non-pronoun words with "direct case" or "direct", and similarly replace "genitive" and "dative" with "oblique case" or "oblique"... AnonMoos ( talk) 15:27, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
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Completati textele. Folosiți articole definite sau nedefinite:
a. În restaurant sunt patru persoane. Este........ bărbat. Bărbat.....
aşteaptă..... prieten. Este .......
femeie. Femei.... stă la masă şi bea..... cafea. Sunt doi tineri. Băiat...... fumează ..... ţigară şi citeşte..... ziar. Fat..... bea...... ceai şi citeşte...... revistă.
b. Sunt într-........ magazin alimentar. Fruct.............sunt
în centru, brânz......,. lapte....... şi
iaurt......sunt în stânga, iar băuturi...... sunt în dreapta. Cumpăr ........ kilogram de banane,
.............litru de lapte şi două sucuri. Sucuri........... sunt în frigider. Aştept la casă, pregătesc
bani...........şi plătesc.
c. Gatesc în fiecare zi acasă. Cumpăr.................... legume şi fructe şi pregătesc.............. supă, .................cartofi și.............desert. Toată famili........ vine acasă la prânz şi mâncăm împreună. 5.32.174.134 ( talk) 03:00, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article needs filling in a lot of blanks (obviously). Be sure to mention clitic doubling and compare to other Romance languages. -- Pablo D. Flores 15:40, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Hmm... that's an interesting theory Chameleon, because the Romanian Wikipedia is well-over the 10,000 articles figure, while the Greek Wiki, the Hungarian Wiki, the Lithuanian Wiki, the Icelandic Wiki and so on are all still below 10,000 articles. There's plenty of Romanian users on this English Wiki also---it's just that there are too many other articles that attract attention. A Romanian grammar article reminds too many Romanians of those boring high school classes. Alexander 007 15:22, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
i've changed some stuff related to the cases, of which there should be 3, not 5... i'm using the terms 'Direct' for nominative/accusative and 'Indirect' for dative/genitive, as was put on the Latin page... this better reflects the current situation for Romanian cases Exit 06:04, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
It is often said that the definite article in Romanian is a clitic (an enclitic to be specific). However, I wonder if this is correct, as it seems to me that it behaves more like an affix. I am a native Romanian speaker, but I can't figure this one out. -- AdiJapan 05:53, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
omul = man.DEF = the man bunul om = good.DEF man = the good man *bun omul
this could possibly have implications for the romanian case system as really the bulk of case marking (except feminine singular genitive/dative) is on the cliticized definite article
Exit 17:24, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think the definite article in Romanian is a clitic. It is part of the noun declension. A clitic is a word that doesn't have its own accent, but is attached to the following or preceding word, in the sense that they are pronounced as a single word. However, a clitic is an independent word morphologically and syntactically. The Romanian definite article changes its form according to the noun it determines, compare om - omul with munte - muntele. Both nouns are masculine singular, so if the article were a clitic, it should have had the same form in both cases. In linguistics, this declension category is called spesies (the same way as case stands for nominative, accusative, etc., spesies stands for definite and indefinite). About the example of bunul om, the explanation is that Romanian has no spesies congruence - that is, in one constituent, only one element receives the spesies marker (article), and that element is the first one. In Basque there is the same situation, except that the spesies, case and number markers go to the last element of the noun phrase. Compare:
gizon = man,
gizona = the man,
gizon on = good man,
gizon ona = the good man.
On the other hand, Swedish does have spesies congruence:
man = man,
mannen = the man,
god man = good man,
den goda mannen = the good man.
So I think the Romanian definite article is not a clitic, but part of the noun (and adjective) declension. Dumiac 20:04, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
There is no mention of cacophony. Besides, from DEX Online:
Is this attitude common?
At the moment, there is utter nonsense about the Latin pronoun 'ille'. It goes like this if my brain's right:
sg.
N. ille, illa, illud
G. illius, illius, illius
D. illi, illi, illi
A. illum, illam, illud
Ab. illo, illa, illo
pl.
N. illi, illae, illa
G. illorum, illarum, illorum
D. illis, illis, illis
A. illos, illas, illa
Ab. illis, illis, illis
As I don't really know what the etymology is, I haven't corrected the article. It's not correct at the moment, this is for sure. 217.50.143.160 21:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The table of pronouns should be expanded to list the feminine forms. Also, the section on prepositions should be expanded with an explicit list of prepositions that take the genitive — including, specifically, prepositions requiring a feminine genitive form when the object is a pronoun (e.g., împotriva mea). Richwales 18:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Also, unless the grammar rules got updated since I did school, Romanian has separate possessive pronouns and adjectives from genitive case personal pronouns only. The genitive pronouns are only at 3rd person: lui/ei/lor, and can be preceded by a possessive article: al/a/ai/ale. The possessive adjectives are meu/mea/tău/ta/său/sa/nostru/noastră/vostru/voastră and so on. Note that său/sa/săi/sale haven't been mentioned in the main article, but they exist. Său/sa/săi/sale have the same semantics as lui/ei/lor but they agree with the possessed object, not with the possessor. They're less common and rather used in written speech than spoken, or for stylistic reasons. They're analogous to French son/sa/ses. If the possessive adjectives are preceded by al/a/ai/ale, they become standalone pronouns. Also note how there doesn't exist a possessive adjective for 3rd person plural.-- Printz150 ( talk) 12:09, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
The page was just updated with a statement saying that the pronoun dumneata "is only used when addressing a person that one finds undesirable, or not worthy of respect, but with whom one cannot resort to using the simple personal pronoun tu (you), due to not actually being acquainted with that person." Can someone cite a source for this? Richwales ( talk) 17:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
“ | What happened is that at some point only using the formal pronoun "dumneata" wasn't seen as polite enough, but you also had to use plural just like in French. This way "dumneata" fell out of use. Its contraction "mata" is probably much more used, but it is very informal, and to me it seems that people use it only when talking with very old villagers. No kidding. Being polite now means using "dumneavoastră" and putting the verb to second person plural even when you talk to a single person. I personally hate and would preffer "dumneata" it but nobody asked me. (sic) | ” |
Attribute: Mi-am luat o fustă mamă-mamă. I bought a cool dress.
I've never heard this expression before in my life. Can someone confirm? 142.167.83.171 ( talk) 14:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Mamă-mamă is an interjection only encountered in Southern Romania (typically East of Bucharest), mostly amongst lower class rural inhabitants. If you're from Ardeal or Banat or Oltenia or Moldova, it's most likely you've never heard it. -- Xanthar ( talk) 23:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
seem to be missing entirely —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.92.42.223 ( talk) 22:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I added a "discuss" tag to this: "The polite pronouns are derived from the old Romanian expression for addressing royalty[dubious – discuss], Domnia Ta, Domnia Voastră, Domnia Lui, etc. (Your Majesty, Your Majesty (plural), His Majesty)." To me it sounds dubious, at least it needs to be referenced. Logically, it would look that royalty was addressed in a polite way, not that the polite form was derived from how royalty was addressed. Also, the translation as "Majesty" is over the top, maybe "Lord" would sound more accurate, although there were not many lords in Romanian history as far as I know. Any input? Ultimately where is the word "domn" coming from? Is it similar to "Don" from Italian? man with one red shoe 02:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Will someone please explain to me how third person polite pronouns are used? Or in what context? I mean, do you use them to talk about people you would address by using second person polite pronouns? I understand the difference between formal and informal pronouns. My mother language is Spanish, and it makes that distinction in the second person. But I can't see how this works in the third person. Thanks. Eduarodi ( talk) 16:44, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
It would probably be simpler to replace "nominative" and "accusative" in discussions about non-pronoun words with "direct case" or "direct", and similarly replace "genitive" and "dative" with "oblique case" or "oblique"... AnonMoos ( talk) 15:27, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Romanian grammar. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:50, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Completati textele. Folosiți articole definite sau nedefinite:
a. În restaurant sunt patru persoane. Este........ bărbat. Bărbat.....
aşteaptă..... prieten. Este .......
femeie. Femei.... stă la masă şi bea..... cafea. Sunt doi tineri. Băiat...... fumează ..... ţigară şi citeşte..... ziar. Fat..... bea...... ceai şi citeşte...... revistă.
b. Sunt într-........ magazin alimentar. Fruct.............sunt
în centru, brânz......,. lapte....... şi
iaurt......sunt în stânga, iar băuturi...... sunt în dreapta. Cumpăr ........ kilogram de banane,
.............litru de lapte şi două sucuri. Sucuri........... sunt în frigider. Aştept la casă, pregătesc
bani...........şi plătesc.
c. Gatesc în fiecare zi acasă. Cumpăr.................... legume şi fructe şi pregătesc.............. supă, .................cartofi și.............desert. Toată famili........ vine acasă la prânz şi mâncăm împreună. 5.32.174.134 ( talk) 03:00, 21 June 2022 (UTC)