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That was not liberation, but occupation. The Romanians opposed the government imposed by the USSR, and the Red Army had to used force.
Anyway, much of your contributions here are POV and I don't agree with some deletions of my stuff. I'll try to reintegrate them in your version. Bogdan | Talk 08:44, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC) ---
This is not POV, but a quote from pre-war manifests of the party. Bogdan | Talk 08:47, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, I think one should say that the Red Army liberated Romania from fascist occupation but then the Soviets occupied the country for several years.
Otherwise we should find a neutral word between liberated and occupation or invasion. Certainly many Romanians at the time did see the Red Army as liberators, at least at first.
As for the colonialist mention, I think its fine to say that the Communist Party had that view but I think you were expressing a POV in stating that this was a reason for the party's lack of success. AndyL 21:49, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, I think one should say that the Red Army liberated Romania from fascism but then the Soviets occupied the country for several years afterwards and installed a pro-Soveit government.
Otherwise we should find a neutral word between liberated and occupation/invasion (is there such a word? I can't think of one which is why I now have both liberation and occupation in the article). Certainly many Romanians at the time did see the Red Army as liberators, at least at first.
As for the colonialist mention, I think its fine to say that the Communist Party had that view but I think you were expressing a POV in stating that this was a reason for the party's lack of success. There is a lot of both pro-Communist and anti-Communist propaganda out there and we have to be careful to sift through it. I've listed two external links on the site that look like they might be helpful. I haven't read through them entirely myself but perhaps we can both look through them and see what we can use for the article AndyL 21:53, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Look at http://reference.allrefer.com/country-guide-study/romania/romania196.html
So I will concede that my impression was incorrect, however I think also that the situation was somewhat more complex than you are portraying 1) there were already more than 1 million Red Army troops on Romanian soil when the King's coup occurred 2) The King arranged Romania's surrender to the Red Army shortly after the coup 3) by the terms of the armistice Romania accepted Red Army occupation, at least temporarily.
I'm also wondering how many German troops were still in Romania after the coup? It would have been rather unrealistic to expect the Red Army not to continue to send troops into Romania if the Nazis were still present.
Saying simply that the Red Army occupied Romania in 1944 is misleading without a reference to the war and German forces. As for "liberation", well, given that the initial entry into Romania was as part of the war in order to push back German troops and that the royal coup did not occur until after the Russians had a major military victory against the German and Romanian armies on Romanian soil I'm hard pressed to deny that the Red Army had a role, indeed the leading role in liberating Romania from the Nazis.
BTW, I know that Romania was for a long time the only Warsaw Pact country with no Soviet troops within its borders. Do you know when the Red Army left (sometime in the 1950s?
As for the colonialist point. As I said, i have no problem with the article saying that. I thought the way it was said was a bit POV which is why I removed it - I was going to rewrite it but I didn't have time (so I probably should have just left it alone for now, my apologies). I think Romania's small working class and lack of industrialisation was probably a more central reason but I don't see why both can't be mentioned. I think some care has to be taken when talking about "foreigners" in the party before 1945 since a) a large percentage of Romania's population, particularly prior to WWII, was not ethnically Romanian
and b) these "foreigners" while not ethnic Romanians were Romanian citizens and Romanian residents were they not?
I think I've explained why the pre-war party had more success recruiting ethnic minorities than ethnic Romanians and it is certainly valid to point out that the fact that the party was, as a result, largely made up of ethnic minorities prior to 1945 would have made it seem like an alien force to ethnic Romanians and thus unappealing but I think we have to be careful with the language used.
On a related point, I've changed some of the pictures at Nicolae Ceausescu. I thought the first photo was too obviously airbrushed and propagandistic and didn't look much like him so I switched it with a more realistic photo. I've also added an example of Ceasescu visual propaganda and a shot of Ceasescu at trial. Please take a look and tell me what you think. AndyL 15:09, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think you're confusing what Romanians think *now* with what many Romanians thought in 1944. At the time many Romanians did view the Red Army as liberators. Certainly the Jews and Gypsies who would likely have been deported to death camps had the Red Army not had its victories against the German Army when it did viewed them as liberators as did other anti-fascist Romanians.
Let's think about this for a second. Do you think the German troops left Romania simply because King Michael changed sides and told them to leave? From my reading the Wehrmacht was never that polite. Clearly the German troops were forced out of the country by the Red Army so it is fair to say that the Red Army liberated Romania from Nazi troops and then occupied the country.
Unless, of course, you're suggesting Michael descended onto the field of battle on his own, waved a sword around, and scared all the Germans into fleeing ;)
You claim "there was no liberation". Certainly King Michael did not liberate the country from German occupation, he didn't have the ability to do so and in any case he didn't switch sides until 1 million Red Army troops were already in Romania and it was clear which way the wind was blowing. Even had he not acted the Red Army still would have driven the Germans out so I think you give too much credit to King Michael.
Objectively there was a liberation, someone drove out the Germans, and it was the Russians who did it - it is accurate to say that the Red Army liberated Romania from the Nazis even if saying this is "politically incorrect". That does not stop us from also saying that the Soviets then continued to occupy Romania for several years and essentially installed the Communist Party into power, but to deny the Red Army its role in pushing out the Germans is just to deny a historical fact.
It may not fit Romania's modern political opinion to give the Red Army any positive role in Romanian history but regardless of what followed the end of World War II the fact remains that it was the Red Army that defeated the Germans on the eastern front and drove them out of the country. AndyL 17:58, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've added some more material - in rewriting I went into more detail about the end of the war and have omitted the word "liberation". I've also added references to the party's "anti-national" policy from before the war and its ethnic composition. AndyL 00:51, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
First of all, the 'new' regions of Romania (Transylvania, Bessarabia, Banat) had a Romanian majority and of course most people of these regions did not see Romania as a 'colonial' power. Bogdan | Talk 17:36, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That section is supposed to include members that had an influence within the Communist Party, not just party members without any activity. We should remember that a quarter of the adult Romanian population was member of the party and for some jobs, it was prerequisite.
83.103.181.182 11:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I REALLY think this topic is absurd. Ok for self-declared communists like Elena and Patrascanu (since this may help people who have no knowledge of the subject get to see who acted inside the Party without being at the top). But "Basescu, Nastase, Iliescu, Constantinescu, Paler" is just a whitch hunt. Stop it. (BTW: it could do with a Dascalescu, or even a Parvulescu). Bottom line: Basescu, Nastase might (if they must) be included, only after this list covers ALL county Party leaders. Wanna get your hands dirty with that kind of business? I think not :). But really, be NPOV. Or at least try. Dahn 17:50, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm translating this to French and I'm not sure about how to translate the following part of a sentence:
Communists who had initially evaded arrest or the need for self-exile (...) became known later as the "Secretariat faction" (...)
Here the different ways I can understand this, assuming there might even be a mistake in the usage of a word or the use of an unknown (to me) meaning of a word:
Thanks for your explanations. -- Defrenrokorit 14:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Haia Lifschitz never set foot in France. She was a local Bessarabian komsomol leader, who died on hunger strike while imprisoned in Cluj in 1929. See details in the Russian Wikipedia article on her. -- SimulacrumDP 18:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this statement of the lead is a bit POV. The correct statement would be "was imposed by the Soviet occupants as a main player", or something like this. Two points:
Dpotop 13:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the 1952 constitution talks about the "power which belongs to MAN and the pupular councils". Councils, meaning Soviets. Also, the citizens have the right to create associations, sindicates, but not parties. In fact, the PMR is the only party mentioned in the constitution. So, yes, the 1952 constitution defines Romania as a single-party republic of the councils (i.e. Soviet/Communist state). Dpotop 18:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
BTW, do you know where I could find the Electoral Law of 1948? That's because the constitution of 1948 mentions nothing concerning parties. The first visible level is the MAN, and the election is delegated to an external electoral law. OTOH, it also fails to mention PCR or PMR. Dpotop 18:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
BTW2: The Soviet constitution of 1936 did not explicitly define the Soviet Union as a Communist state. The term "Communist" is related to the state ideology, and all serious historians label the SU and post-1948 Romania as Communist.
BTW: don't take my previous reasoning too seriously. It's intended as a reply to another not-very-serious and mostly rhetoric question by Anonimu. Dpotop 18:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, I now see that Category:Ruling Communist parties is a subcat of Category:Parties of single-party systems, which I guess is due to the (obvious) fact that (practically by definition), Communist states are single-party systems, where the PC holds absolute power. But I was going by the cat scheme for other PC's -- eg, Bulgarian Communist Party, Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, etc -- where both cats are in place. Doesn't this mean that those cats should go, too, or was there any difference between the various flavors of Eastern Bloc PCs in their heyday that would warrant such differing standards for WP categories? Turgidson 20:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Two days ago I listened to the Soviet Anthem (it's fun), and it seemed to me I heard "Russia" in the lyrics. I don't know Russian, so I couldn't tell for sure, but still, it seemed weird enough to make me take a look on wikipedia. To my surprise, the Soviet Anthem does mention Russia. In fact, it mentions "Greater Russia". Nice proof of nationalism at the peak of the Communist regime in the USSR (the anthem wa created in the 1930s).
I presume Dahn already knew it, but for people that were not aware, this is funny information, I presume. Dpotop 10:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Ermmm.... Sorry, Dahn, but the image does not serve your purpose. From the 3 words of Russian I know, "Rodina Mat'" means something like "Mother-country". No mention of Russia, except in the image name, which is misleading. So, you have here a clear example of all-Soviet Patriotism/ Nationalism, as opposed to Russia-centric stuff. Dpotop 15:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure this discussion will help improve the article... Anonimu 16:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Soviet Anthem says (as you can see in the article):
In 1991, a new anthem was introduced. In fact the old "God save the Tsar" tune without words was declared the hymn. For some time there was a competition for the best words. However, when Putin came to power, he chaged the Russian National Anthem to the old Soviet tune, but new words were composed (interestingly, by the same person wo has composed the Soviet ones above).
Rodina-Mat' means exactly Patria-mama. No more and no less. Since Rodina is also sometimes translated (equaly correctly) Fatherland (cf. "rod"=clan, gender), I pospose an equally correct Mather Fatherland. In fact, I am going to change it now. :-)
Rodina Mat' Zovyot [read Zaveot, "eo" together, emphazis on and "Ro" and "veot"] means Patria mama [te] cheama / [Mother] Fatherland is calling [you]. The woman has in her hand the text of the military oath (voyennaya prisyaga). Suring Soviet time, they used it extensively were appropriate and were not to the extent that it bothered the eyes just as Lenin's portrets and statues. Some confused and thought it was from the OCtober revolution, b/c of the shape of the weappons in the background - which is WWI non-automatic ones, standard issue in 1941, but already not in 1943 (they had to introduce an automatic one, as you can see in some pictured from Stalingrad, b/c the German automatic gun, very imprecise at >100 meters, was ravaging at 30-50 meters, and the old guns took long time to load by people who first touched a weappon 5 minutes before the battle, as was usualy the case) Any more questions? : Dc76 19:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
You should already know this, but let me remind you:
wikipedia is not a forum
Anonimu
10:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The current edit war is a perfect illustration of why I originally left the details out of the lead. (And, btw, if one of the editors feels like he is entitled to accuse me au "hiding causal relations", that person better look at what I did for the article as a whole.) Dahn 15:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Dahn that the current lead is too long. I suggest we cut it down to **one short paragraph**, following the example of the articles covering the Czechoslovakian and Polish parties. We could actually modify the Czech lead, which seems to me pretty balanced and NPOV. Dpotop 16:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The Romanian Communist Party ( Romanian: Partidul Comunist Român, PCR) was a communist political party in Romania. Successor to the Bolshevik wing of the Socialist Party of Romania, it gave ideological endorsement to communist revolution and the disestablishment of Greater Romania. The PCR was a minor and illegal grouping for much of the interwar period, and submitted to direct Comintern and Soviet control. During the 1930s, most of its activists were imprisoned or took refuge in the Soviet Union, which led to the creation of separate and competing factions until the 1950s.
The Communist Party emerged as a powerful actor on the Romanian political scene in August 1944, when it became involved in the Royal coup that toppled the pro- Nazi government of Ion Antonescu. With support from Soviet occupation forces, the PCR was able to force King Michael I into exile, and establish the Romanian communist regime in 1948, becoming the dominant, and later single ruling party until 1989.
In 1947, the Communist Party absorbed much of the Social Democratic Party, while attracting various new members. In the early 1950s, the PCR's dominant wing around Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej, with support from Joseph Stalin, defeated all the other factions and achieved full control over the party and country. After 1953, the Romanian Communists refused to apply De-Stalinization, and, in time, theorized a "national path" to Communism. This nationalist stance was continued under the leadership of Nicolae Ceauşescu. Following an episode of liberalization in the late 1960s, Ceauşescu again adopted a hard line, and imposed the July Theses. At the time, the PCR massively and artificially increased in size, while being entirely submitted to the will of its general secretary. Its disappearence was a direct consequence of the 1989 Revolution.
I propose the current lead should be split in two, as following:
-- Eurocopter tigre 00:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok, it was just a proposal. This thing worked in the F-4 Phantom II article (currently an FA), where the lead was also way too long. -- Eurocopter tigre 00:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I agree, you can't compare a party article with an aircraft one. The aircraft is quite comparable with our flying coffins ( MiG-21 LanceR. :-) -- Eurocopter tigre 07:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The lead proposed by Turgidson seems OK to me, as it is. Dpotop 05:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
At the same time, I don't see what the "UTC and press" paragraph adds. All great parties in the world have youth organizations, media outlets, and some way of preparing their cadres. Is somebody interested in saying that "PNT" directs "Tineretul Taranist" and "Dreptatea"? Similarly, does the article on the French Communist Party mention their cadre preparation program? The answer is NO. Therefore, this info doesn't belong to the lead. Dpotop 05:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Look Dpotop: I want to indicate to the reader how articles relate to one another, which is a basic tool on wikipedia. I'm not interested in how you rate them, I am not interested in what another articles real or imagined can be fit in there, I'm not interested in you splitting hairs over the meaning of "affiliates", I'm interested in the fact that the subjects exist, and are important enough to mention so that the reader gets a sense of what they were to the party. It is a simple short paragraph detailing a common sense thing. Dahn 20:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The lead of the article on the USSR communist party contains a very pertinent remark we could make here, too: The fact that there was little difference between the organization of the state, the party, and the mass organizations. Dpotop 15:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Dahn says he needs some way of marking standard relations between political organizations, even when these are not notable. There exists a tool for doing this on Wikipedia: Infoboxes. For instance, a "Political party" infobox would have a "Press outlet" field (Scanteia, maybe RL), a "Youth organization" field, a.s.o. These things are not necessarily important, but they may be mentioned like, for instance, the succession of prime ministers of a country. Some of them are not important, but it's useful syntactic information.
What do you think? With such an infobox, we can concentrate on content. Dpotop 20:47, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe Dahn will tell me that it's obvious (and I agree with this), but are there reliable sources stating the continuity between PCbR, PMR and PCR (or it's just our consensus making that PMR is seen as a sub-case of PCR)? Dpotop 13:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Note that I'm not challenging the statement (at all). Dpotop 13:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
In 1965 PMR was simply renamed RCP.-- Mazarin07 ( talk) 19:05, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I split the intro in a different way (per Turgidson split in the talk page above). We can now compare it with Anonimu's verision: [1]. The differnces appear minor, but they give a different read per whole. Oppinions? Other eidts? : Dc76\ talk 18:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Please fix the typo contained within this article, appearence -> appearance. Clerks. 14:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I am just proposing that we mention one of the horrible ways in which they took by power, more precisely blackmail. This information is as much about the party as it is about the regime it imposed, so I see no reason not to mention it.
The second modification is in fact just a requirement for sources. It's a misconceived idea that the "Communist Party had little influence in Romania due to the country's lack of industrial development". It may be that they had little influence because of their own incompetence and their very pro-USSR image, version which in my opinion is more plausible. Anyway I didn't delete or add anything I am just asking for sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fsol ( talk • contribs) 06:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
During late 1968, the PMR's leadership clashed with new Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev over the issue of KGB advisers still present in the Securitate, and eventually managed to have them recalled, making Romania the Eastern Bloc's first country to have accomplished this 1. There was no PMR in 1968. 2. I think that KGB advisers have been sacked out well before 1968.-- Mazarin07 ( talk) 19:07, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
It still exists, led by Alexandru Pantazi and BTW, Traian Băsescu has a stupid look on his face))) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.183.213 ( talk) 19:40, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
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Many sources say that the fifth congress (1931) was held in "Gorikovo" (in some sources spelled " Gorkovo", which probably uses a better transliteration of ь).
I can't find any placename near Moscow called like this, apart from the Gorky Park (Горького парк/Gor(i)kogo Park). The park had been just opened a few years before the congress (in 1928), but was the congress really held in the park? bogdan ( talk) 17:23, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
It seems there was a "Ulitsa Gorkovo" but that was street in central Moscow, not a town around it. bogdan ( talk) 17:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
...and the Hotel Lux was located on " Ulitsa Gorkovo", the hotel being the place where Communist exiled used to stay. bogdan ( talk) 17:48, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
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There were a few laws banning the PCR post-1989, which doesn't seem to be covered by the article yet:
There has been multiple attempts to reconstitute the PCR, as well as attempts to establish unconnected communist parties. Both have faced legal issues connected to legislation meant to ban PCR. I'm not adding this myself since I didn't find yet enough reliable sources covering this extensively, but some examples can be found in ro:Partidul Comunist Român#Continuatori and Communist Party (Nepeceriști). -- MarioGom ( talk) 14:53, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
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That was not liberation, but occupation. The Romanians opposed the government imposed by the USSR, and the Red Army had to used force.
Anyway, much of your contributions here are POV and I don't agree with some deletions of my stuff. I'll try to reintegrate them in your version. Bogdan | Talk 08:44, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC) ---
This is not POV, but a quote from pre-war manifests of the party. Bogdan | Talk 08:47, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, I think one should say that the Red Army liberated Romania from fascist occupation but then the Soviets occupied the country for several years.
Otherwise we should find a neutral word between liberated and occupation or invasion. Certainly many Romanians at the time did see the Red Army as liberators, at least at first.
As for the colonialist mention, I think its fine to say that the Communist Party had that view but I think you were expressing a POV in stating that this was a reason for the party's lack of success. AndyL 21:49, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, I think one should say that the Red Army liberated Romania from fascism but then the Soviets occupied the country for several years afterwards and installed a pro-Soveit government.
Otherwise we should find a neutral word between liberated and occupation/invasion (is there such a word? I can't think of one which is why I now have both liberation and occupation in the article). Certainly many Romanians at the time did see the Red Army as liberators, at least at first.
As for the colonialist mention, I think its fine to say that the Communist Party had that view but I think you were expressing a POV in stating that this was a reason for the party's lack of success. There is a lot of both pro-Communist and anti-Communist propaganda out there and we have to be careful to sift through it. I've listed two external links on the site that look like they might be helpful. I haven't read through them entirely myself but perhaps we can both look through them and see what we can use for the article AndyL 21:53, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Look at http://reference.allrefer.com/country-guide-study/romania/romania196.html
So I will concede that my impression was incorrect, however I think also that the situation was somewhat more complex than you are portraying 1) there were already more than 1 million Red Army troops on Romanian soil when the King's coup occurred 2) The King arranged Romania's surrender to the Red Army shortly after the coup 3) by the terms of the armistice Romania accepted Red Army occupation, at least temporarily.
I'm also wondering how many German troops were still in Romania after the coup? It would have been rather unrealistic to expect the Red Army not to continue to send troops into Romania if the Nazis were still present.
Saying simply that the Red Army occupied Romania in 1944 is misleading without a reference to the war and German forces. As for "liberation", well, given that the initial entry into Romania was as part of the war in order to push back German troops and that the royal coup did not occur until after the Russians had a major military victory against the German and Romanian armies on Romanian soil I'm hard pressed to deny that the Red Army had a role, indeed the leading role in liberating Romania from the Nazis.
BTW, I know that Romania was for a long time the only Warsaw Pact country with no Soviet troops within its borders. Do you know when the Red Army left (sometime in the 1950s?
As for the colonialist point. As I said, i have no problem with the article saying that. I thought the way it was said was a bit POV which is why I removed it - I was going to rewrite it but I didn't have time (so I probably should have just left it alone for now, my apologies). I think Romania's small working class and lack of industrialisation was probably a more central reason but I don't see why both can't be mentioned. I think some care has to be taken when talking about "foreigners" in the party before 1945 since a) a large percentage of Romania's population, particularly prior to WWII, was not ethnically Romanian
and b) these "foreigners" while not ethnic Romanians were Romanian citizens and Romanian residents were they not?
I think I've explained why the pre-war party had more success recruiting ethnic minorities than ethnic Romanians and it is certainly valid to point out that the fact that the party was, as a result, largely made up of ethnic minorities prior to 1945 would have made it seem like an alien force to ethnic Romanians and thus unappealing but I think we have to be careful with the language used.
On a related point, I've changed some of the pictures at Nicolae Ceausescu. I thought the first photo was too obviously airbrushed and propagandistic and didn't look much like him so I switched it with a more realistic photo. I've also added an example of Ceasescu visual propaganda and a shot of Ceasescu at trial. Please take a look and tell me what you think. AndyL 15:09, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think you're confusing what Romanians think *now* with what many Romanians thought in 1944. At the time many Romanians did view the Red Army as liberators. Certainly the Jews and Gypsies who would likely have been deported to death camps had the Red Army not had its victories against the German Army when it did viewed them as liberators as did other anti-fascist Romanians.
Let's think about this for a second. Do you think the German troops left Romania simply because King Michael changed sides and told them to leave? From my reading the Wehrmacht was never that polite. Clearly the German troops were forced out of the country by the Red Army so it is fair to say that the Red Army liberated Romania from Nazi troops and then occupied the country.
Unless, of course, you're suggesting Michael descended onto the field of battle on his own, waved a sword around, and scared all the Germans into fleeing ;)
You claim "there was no liberation". Certainly King Michael did not liberate the country from German occupation, he didn't have the ability to do so and in any case he didn't switch sides until 1 million Red Army troops were already in Romania and it was clear which way the wind was blowing. Even had he not acted the Red Army still would have driven the Germans out so I think you give too much credit to King Michael.
Objectively there was a liberation, someone drove out the Germans, and it was the Russians who did it - it is accurate to say that the Red Army liberated Romania from the Nazis even if saying this is "politically incorrect". That does not stop us from also saying that the Soviets then continued to occupy Romania for several years and essentially installed the Communist Party into power, but to deny the Red Army its role in pushing out the Germans is just to deny a historical fact.
It may not fit Romania's modern political opinion to give the Red Army any positive role in Romanian history but regardless of what followed the end of World War II the fact remains that it was the Red Army that defeated the Germans on the eastern front and drove them out of the country. AndyL 17:58, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've added some more material - in rewriting I went into more detail about the end of the war and have omitted the word "liberation". I've also added references to the party's "anti-national" policy from before the war and its ethnic composition. AndyL 00:51, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
First of all, the 'new' regions of Romania (Transylvania, Bessarabia, Banat) had a Romanian majority and of course most people of these regions did not see Romania as a 'colonial' power. Bogdan | Talk 17:36, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That section is supposed to include members that had an influence within the Communist Party, not just party members without any activity. We should remember that a quarter of the adult Romanian population was member of the party and for some jobs, it was prerequisite.
83.103.181.182 11:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I REALLY think this topic is absurd. Ok for self-declared communists like Elena and Patrascanu (since this may help people who have no knowledge of the subject get to see who acted inside the Party without being at the top). But "Basescu, Nastase, Iliescu, Constantinescu, Paler" is just a whitch hunt. Stop it. (BTW: it could do with a Dascalescu, or even a Parvulescu). Bottom line: Basescu, Nastase might (if they must) be included, only after this list covers ALL county Party leaders. Wanna get your hands dirty with that kind of business? I think not :). But really, be NPOV. Or at least try. Dahn 17:50, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm translating this to French and I'm not sure about how to translate the following part of a sentence:
Communists who had initially evaded arrest or the need for self-exile (...) became known later as the "Secretariat faction" (...)
Here the different ways I can understand this, assuming there might even be a mistake in the usage of a word or the use of an unknown (to me) meaning of a word:
Thanks for your explanations. -- Defrenrokorit 14:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Haia Lifschitz never set foot in France. She was a local Bessarabian komsomol leader, who died on hunger strike while imprisoned in Cluj in 1929. See details in the Russian Wikipedia article on her. -- SimulacrumDP 18:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this statement of the lead is a bit POV. The correct statement would be "was imposed by the Soviet occupants as a main player", or something like this. Two points:
Dpotop 13:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the 1952 constitution talks about the "power which belongs to MAN and the pupular councils". Councils, meaning Soviets. Also, the citizens have the right to create associations, sindicates, but not parties. In fact, the PMR is the only party mentioned in the constitution. So, yes, the 1952 constitution defines Romania as a single-party republic of the councils (i.e. Soviet/Communist state). Dpotop 18:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
BTW, do you know where I could find the Electoral Law of 1948? That's because the constitution of 1948 mentions nothing concerning parties. The first visible level is the MAN, and the election is delegated to an external electoral law. OTOH, it also fails to mention PCR or PMR. Dpotop 18:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
BTW2: The Soviet constitution of 1936 did not explicitly define the Soviet Union as a Communist state. The term "Communist" is related to the state ideology, and all serious historians label the SU and post-1948 Romania as Communist.
BTW: don't take my previous reasoning too seriously. It's intended as a reply to another not-very-serious and mostly rhetoric question by Anonimu. Dpotop 18:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, I now see that Category:Ruling Communist parties is a subcat of Category:Parties of single-party systems, which I guess is due to the (obvious) fact that (practically by definition), Communist states are single-party systems, where the PC holds absolute power. But I was going by the cat scheme for other PC's -- eg, Bulgarian Communist Party, Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, etc -- where both cats are in place. Doesn't this mean that those cats should go, too, or was there any difference between the various flavors of Eastern Bloc PCs in their heyday that would warrant such differing standards for WP categories? Turgidson 20:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Two days ago I listened to the Soviet Anthem (it's fun), and it seemed to me I heard "Russia" in the lyrics. I don't know Russian, so I couldn't tell for sure, but still, it seemed weird enough to make me take a look on wikipedia. To my surprise, the Soviet Anthem does mention Russia. In fact, it mentions "Greater Russia". Nice proof of nationalism at the peak of the Communist regime in the USSR (the anthem wa created in the 1930s).
I presume Dahn already knew it, but for people that were not aware, this is funny information, I presume. Dpotop 10:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Ermmm.... Sorry, Dahn, but the image does not serve your purpose. From the 3 words of Russian I know, "Rodina Mat'" means something like "Mother-country". No mention of Russia, except in the image name, which is misleading. So, you have here a clear example of all-Soviet Patriotism/ Nationalism, as opposed to Russia-centric stuff. Dpotop 15:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure this discussion will help improve the article... Anonimu 16:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Soviet Anthem says (as you can see in the article):
In 1991, a new anthem was introduced. In fact the old "God save the Tsar" tune without words was declared the hymn. For some time there was a competition for the best words. However, when Putin came to power, he chaged the Russian National Anthem to the old Soviet tune, but new words were composed (interestingly, by the same person wo has composed the Soviet ones above).
Rodina-Mat' means exactly Patria-mama. No more and no less. Since Rodina is also sometimes translated (equaly correctly) Fatherland (cf. "rod"=clan, gender), I pospose an equally correct Mather Fatherland. In fact, I am going to change it now. :-)
Rodina Mat' Zovyot [read Zaveot, "eo" together, emphazis on and "Ro" and "veot"] means Patria mama [te] cheama / [Mother] Fatherland is calling [you]. The woman has in her hand the text of the military oath (voyennaya prisyaga). Suring Soviet time, they used it extensively were appropriate and were not to the extent that it bothered the eyes just as Lenin's portrets and statues. Some confused and thought it was from the OCtober revolution, b/c of the shape of the weappons in the background - which is WWI non-automatic ones, standard issue in 1941, but already not in 1943 (they had to introduce an automatic one, as you can see in some pictured from Stalingrad, b/c the German automatic gun, very imprecise at >100 meters, was ravaging at 30-50 meters, and the old guns took long time to load by people who first touched a weappon 5 minutes before the battle, as was usualy the case) Any more questions? : Dc76 19:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
You should already know this, but let me remind you:
wikipedia is not a forum
Anonimu
10:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The current edit war is a perfect illustration of why I originally left the details out of the lead. (And, btw, if one of the editors feels like he is entitled to accuse me au "hiding causal relations", that person better look at what I did for the article as a whole.) Dahn 15:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Dahn that the current lead is too long. I suggest we cut it down to **one short paragraph**, following the example of the articles covering the Czechoslovakian and Polish parties. We could actually modify the Czech lead, which seems to me pretty balanced and NPOV. Dpotop 16:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The Romanian Communist Party ( Romanian: Partidul Comunist Român, PCR) was a communist political party in Romania. Successor to the Bolshevik wing of the Socialist Party of Romania, it gave ideological endorsement to communist revolution and the disestablishment of Greater Romania. The PCR was a minor and illegal grouping for much of the interwar period, and submitted to direct Comintern and Soviet control. During the 1930s, most of its activists were imprisoned or took refuge in the Soviet Union, which led to the creation of separate and competing factions until the 1950s.
The Communist Party emerged as a powerful actor on the Romanian political scene in August 1944, when it became involved in the Royal coup that toppled the pro- Nazi government of Ion Antonescu. With support from Soviet occupation forces, the PCR was able to force King Michael I into exile, and establish the Romanian communist regime in 1948, becoming the dominant, and later single ruling party until 1989.
In 1947, the Communist Party absorbed much of the Social Democratic Party, while attracting various new members. In the early 1950s, the PCR's dominant wing around Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej, with support from Joseph Stalin, defeated all the other factions and achieved full control over the party and country. After 1953, the Romanian Communists refused to apply De-Stalinization, and, in time, theorized a "national path" to Communism. This nationalist stance was continued under the leadership of Nicolae Ceauşescu. Following an episode of liberalization in the late 1960s, Ceauşescu again adopted a hard line, and imposed the July Theses. At the time, the PCR massively and artificially increased in size, while being entirely submitted to the will of its general secretary. Its disappearence was a direct consequence of the 1989 Revolution.
I propose the current lead should be split in two, as following:
-- Eurocopter tigre 00:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok, it was just a proposal. This thing worked in the F-4 Phantom II article (currently an FA), where the lead was also way too long. -- Eurocopter tigre 00:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I agree, you can't compare a party article with an aircraft one. The aircraft is quite comparable with our flying coffins ( MiG-21 LanceR. :-) -- Eurocopter tigre 07:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The lead proposed by Turgidson seems OK to me, as it is. Dpotop 05:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
At the same time, I don't see what the "UTC and press" paragraph adds. All great parties in the world have youth organizations, media outlets, and some way of preparing their cadres. Is somebody interested in saying that "PNT" directs "Tineretul Taranist" and "Dreptatea"? Similarly, does the article on the French Communist Party mention their cadre preparation program? The answer is NO. Therefore, this info doesn't belong to the lead. Dpotop 05:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Look Dpotop: I want to indicate to the reader how articles relate to one another, which is a basic tool on wikipedia. I'm not interested in how you rate them, I am not interested in what another articles real or imagined can be fit in there, I'm not interested in you splitting hairs over the meaning of "affiliates", I'm interested in the fact that the subjects exist, and are important enough to mention so that the reader gets a sense of what they were to the party. It is a simple short paragraph detailing a common sense thing. Dahn 20:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The lead of the article on the USSR communist party contains a very pertinent remark we could make here, too: The fact that there was little difference between the organization of the state, the party, and the mass organizations. Dpotop 15:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Dahn says he needs some way of marking standard relations between political organizations, even when these are not notable. There exists a tool for doing this on Wikipedia: Infoboxes. For instance, a "Political party" infobox would have a "Press outlet" field (Scanteia, maybe RL), a "Youth organization" field, a.s.o. These things are not necessarily important, but they may be mentioned like, for instance, the succession of prime ministers of a country. Some of them are not important, but it's useful syntactic information.
What do you think? With such an infobox, we can concentrate on content. Dpotop 20:47, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe Dahn will tell me that it's obvious (and I agree with this), but are there reliable sources stating the continuity between PCbR, PMR and PCR (or it's just our consensus making that PMR is seen as a sub-case of PCR)? Dpotop 13:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Note that I'm not challenging the statement (at all). Dpotop 13:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
In 1965 PMR was simply renamed RCP.-- Mazarin07 ( talk) 19:05, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I split the intro in a different way (per Turgidson split in the talk page above). We can now compare it with Anonimu's verision: [1]. The differnces appear minor, but they give a different read per whole. Oppinions? Other eidts? : Dc76\ talk 18:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Please fix the typo contained within this article, appearence -> appearance. Clerks. 14:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I am just proposing that we mention one of the horrible ways in which they took by power, more precisely blackmail. This information is as much about the party as it is about the regime it imposed, so I see no reason not to mention it.
The second modification is in fact just a requirement for sources. It's a misconceived idea that the "Communist Party had little influence in Romania due to the country's lack of industrial development". It may be that they had little influence because of their own incompetence and their very pro-USSR image, version which in my opinion is more plausible. Anyway I didn't delete or add anything I am just asking for sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fsol ( talk • contribs) 06:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
During late 1968, the PMR's leadership clashed with new Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev over the issue of KGB advisers still present in the Securitate, and eventually managed to have them recalled, making Romania the Eastern Bloc's first country to have accomplished this 1. There was no PMR in 1968. 2. I think that KGB advisers have been sacked out well before 1968.-- Mazarin07 ( talk) 19:07, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
It still exists, led by Alexandru Pantazi and BTW, Traian Băsescu has a stupid look on his face))) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.183.213 ( talk) 19:40, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
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Many sources say that the fifth congress (1931) was held in "Gorikovo" (in some sources spelled " Gorkovo", which probably uses a better transliteration of ь).
I can't find any placename near Moscow called like this, apart from the Gorky Park (Горького парк/Gor(i)kogo Park). The park had been just opened a few years before the congress (in 1928), but was the congress really held in the park? bogdan ( talk) 17:23, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
It seems there was a "Ulitsa Gorkovo" but that was street in central Moscow, not a town around it. bogdan ( talk) 17:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
...and the Hotel Lux was located on " Ulitsa Gorkovo", the hotel being the place where Communist exiled used to stay. bogdan ( talk) 17:48, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
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There were a few laws banning the PCR post-1989, which doesn't seem to be covered by the article yet:
There has been multiple attempts to reconstitute the PCR, as well as attempts to establish unconnected communist parties. Both have faced legal issues connected to legislation meant to ban PCR. I'm not adding this myself since I didn't find yet enough reliable sources covering this extensively, but some examples can be found in ro:Partidul Comunist Român#Continuatori and Communist Party (Nepeceriști). -- MarioGom ( talk) 14:53, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
References