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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Excellent work, Greier !! -- Vintila Barbu 15:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Why "This article does not cite any references or sources. (March 2007)"? There are references and sources at the and. So there are some. I think the work of the contributors can be improved, but I think also the mark "This article does not cite any references or sources. (March 2007)" it´s not correct. -- Intelitem ( talk) 13:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I am wondering whether it has any merit to consider renaming this article? There are two issues that I see with the current title.
First, the term Romania was not used in the modern sense or in reference to more or less the current territory at least until 1700. In fact, the term Romania in middle ages referred to Rumelia. This area, however inexact in modern political terms, was then known either as Dacia, or as the name of the particular migratory tribe for the particular period. From 11th century, part of it is also known as (historic) Hungary. One can, of course, debate that we can name it Romanians in the Early Middle Ages, but there is a different article dealing with that, namely Origin of Romanians.
The second issue is that we should encompass not only Early Middle Ages but also High Middle Ages. Except for Transylvania, the two make a common period for what was Dacia. This article does not talk about Cumans, nor about the Tatar invasion, but it should. The end years for this article, IMHO, should be 1000 for Tranylvania, 1270 for Wallachia, 1300 for Moldavia. And the continuation should be in articles about T, W, M respectively. I can understand the merits of an overview article Romania in the Middle Ages (although with a slightly different title, imho), but not as a main article. Rather, Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldavia should have specific articles.
So, I can suggest something like Dacia in the Early and High Middle Ages with the observation that High Middle Ages for Trasylvania would actually be covered elsewhere. This article must be written so that it can be smoothly continues with Kingdom of Hungary in the Middle Ages, Foundation of Wallachia, and Foundation of Moldavia, while itself smoothly continuing Roman Dacia and Free Dacians.
If some do not like "Dacia", we can have "Tisza-Dniester-Danube area" instead. But "Romania" simply does not make sense. It sounds like "USA in the Early Middle Ages". Now, "Northern America ..." is a different story, and that is what I am suggesting. Another alternative could be "Northern Balkans", but then we should expand it to include modern Hungary and Slovakia, and at least partially Croatia. Dc76\ talk 02:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Borsoka ( talk) 03:46, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Borsoka ( talk) 06:35, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your reply. It is very detailed, and I need to think more about different aspects you mention. Unformtulately, I want to go offline now, so I will have to postpone a more full answer. For now I would like to mention two things: 1) that most of your arguments make sense to me and I simply need more time to think about the issues, 2) that there is no contradiction in having articles in History of M/W/T and in parallel articles in H of Romania/Hungary, etc. Look, for example how it is done here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain#History. This is more or less what I have in mind. And I think you misunderstood something: I do not mean to merge R on Early Middle Ages with R in Middle Ages. I only wondered whether the term Romania is appropriate for that time period. Dc76\ talk 07:27, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I really do not understand what is the purpose when we are counting the waves. Is there any reliable source using this distinction? (I mean 1. Goths, Huns, Gepids, Slavs, Magyars 2. Pechenegs, Cumans, Tatars) Why not 1. Goths 2. Huns 3. Gepids 4. Slavs 5. Magyars 6. Pechenegs 7. Cumans 8. Tatars? Borsoka ( talk) 19:52, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Goths, Huns, Gepids, Avars did not settle, and they simply replaced each other. There is a clear continuity between them, and then a break when Charlemegne defeated the Avars. Slavs and Hungarians, as well as to smaller extent Bulgars are a different story: the settles, they formed smaller or larger states, they did not move away from the region. Pechenegs, Cumans and Tatars again have a consecutivity between them. But, please, do not take my word for this. Just open any book that deals with Romania in the Dark Ages and you see this split into three. We can not bring our own chronological division, we simply have to follow what is in the books. Dc76\ talk 06:21, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I really do not know when the Early Middle Ages in Romania ended. Is there any consensual date? I am not convinced that the 13th-14th centuries are included. Borsoka ( talk) 19:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
The Early Middle Ages ended differently in the 3 regions: in Transylvania they ended with the Hungarian conquest in 1003. So there should be a separate article dealing with Transylvania in 1003-1526, which has to reflective, but only more specific territorially of Kingdom of Hungary in the Middle Ages. In Wallachia, the key year is 1272, when the first half-independent entity appeared, which in a few decaded became independent. In Moldavia, it is 1346 for just a similar reason. Romania had a longer Early Middle Ages than the rest of Europe, because it was actually a Dark Ages (b/c of the absense of any state) - from 271 till 1003/1272/1346. Transylvania got into High and Later Middle Ages more or less in parallel with the western Europe. Wallachia and Moldavia started them later, and then had to "catch". For Wallachia, the next "braking" points are 1386 (Mircea cel Batrin) and 1512 (end of Basarab dinasty). For Moldavia it is even moresquized: 1457 and 1504 (the start and the end of the reign of Stephen the Great, that much he changed that principality). Even early modern cronicles brake at 1504 and 1512. For example Grigore Ureche, just to mention the first that comes to mind, writes till 1504, then gives a long description of all the countries around in that year, then continues from 1504 on. Again, I am not presenting here my point of view, i simply tell you what I understand to be the reason behind these divisions in books. Dc76\ talk 06:32, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
"Many scholars, especially Hungarians, argue that Romanization in Dacia was, in fact, modest and that the later Romanian population living north of the Carpathians was not native to the region but migrated there from south of the Danube."
"Other scholars, including the majority of Romanians, insist that a substantial Romanized population maintained itself continuously in old Dacia and that the ethnogenesis of the Romanian people occurred precisely there. Mainstream sources, such as Encyclopaedia Britannica follow the latter interpretation."
Borsoka ( talk) 20:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
There are two differnt problems that you bring up. One is about continuity theory and migration theory. The second problem is with some archeology in Communist Romania. You should be aware that in Ceausescu's Romania there were a number of idiots that wanted to become historians, but they were nothing but party members. So they did as the party told them: they "found" traces of Dacian fortresses where there were none, they had absolutley no tools to do research to the standard and just a desire to write articles and books that pleased the "great leader". Some of them went as idiotic as to reject the Out of Africa theory and "prove" that Dacians were in Dacia as far back as 600,000 BC. One phrase with which these idiots were ridiculized was "monkeys that jump from tree to tree in 600,000 BC and recite Miorita". You should be aware that nobody takes them seriously nowadays. So, when you see criticism of Romanian archeologists in 1970-80 from westerners, those westerners are very civil and delicate and do not call things as they were: crocks.
I am not a historian, so I don't know inside info, and I also am not qualified to have a discussion on the level of a historian (although I like to claim I read something non-negligible about history, I always call myself 100% amateur).
But back to problem number one. It is a different story. You see the problem is this: mainstream historians outside Hungary, Romania (and outside some German ones from 19th century, who actually founded the migration theory) do not present the things as you did: here are 2 theories, here is what they say. That can definitevely be done, but not here, rather in a separate article "Theories about the origin of the Romanians". What meanstream sourses do is describe what is known (facts), not what is theorised (mainstream interpretation and alternatives). I think that is how the article should be structured. Interpretation aparts, there are a lot of facts that can be presented. And it is not so difficult to chose the words sensibly. The second thing I would respectfully ask you to notice is that mainsteam western historians mention the 2 theories but "tell" only one of them. It is absolutely all right to add info about theories that bring doubts and to present those theories thoroughly. But to simply cut each topic into two alternatives and only have a presentation of two alternatives about each topic with pros and cons is no way to go, and mainstream historians do not do that.
I know that you will not agree with the comparison, but please don't take it as a comparison, rather simply as a modus operandi in presentation. Theory of evolution and Theory of creation. Scientific books do not go around presenting each topic from 2 points of view with pros and cons. That's not science, that's amateurism. They present what the scientific community believes, and at the end they present the existence of alternatives. Believe me, I heard of very educated and reputable scientists who believe in the theory of creation. That does not hinder them from sequensing DNA and do everything all the others do. They simply retain a different view on an isolated area. And for all it's worth nobody can say with 100% certainty they are wrong. Only that scnietific community at large believes a different story. Now back to WP, it would be very tempting for someone to present a number of articles in a double way: take section by section and present one theory, then the other. Very tempting, Yet that's not done. Because that is an amateurish way vs a scientific way. (I suppose you are also not historian, like me.) But we can do better that the first way: we can retell the story the scientific way, simply by reading and summarazing mainstream books, which, if it is a good book, will definitevely mention also the alternative theory/ies, and would not present them as ridicule (as red comissars doing atheist propaganda), but very tactfully and respectfully, knowing that for what it's worth, all mainkind can be wrong. Scientific discoveries are only done by those that doubt. Politicians can ridicule. For scientists, it is too low to ridicule, anybody. Dc76\ talk 07:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I think that this part of article is intended to cover the Christian objects found in Transylvania, the mission of Saint Saba the Goth and Saint Nicetas, the martirs of Dubrodja, and reference to the reasons why the Romanians adopted Old Church Slavonic although contemporary sources suggest that the territory of present-day Romanian was proselyzed in Gothic, Latin and Greek. If this is the case, I suggest that the arguments should be described in the article of Origin of the Romanians, otherwise this article will be too long. Similarly, I suggest that copper coins, wheel-turned pottery, vatra, and other pro-continuity arguments should be described in the "Origin of the Romanians". I hope that there are editors who could summarize these arguments, because the referred article is a nightmare now. Borsoka ( talk) 21:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I am afraid you misread in the sense of this article. This article is not about thoeries of the Origin of the Romanians. The Origins of the Romanians does not include where, but also what. Even that article should focuss more on Thraco-Roman, and Christianity, and Slav influence, and so on. The theories do NOT disagree on whan happened and who Romanians are. They simply place the center of gravity in two different point: Carpathians and Transylvania, respectively Northern Serbia. So, I suggest to start by finding points of agreement between editors, rather than points of disagrement. We can devote one of 3 or 4 sections of Origin of the Romanians to the two theories. The discussion about theories is blown out of proportion, and it can only lead to piling on of more Romanian and Hungarian editors in bad mood and faith. Is that what we want? I hope not. Ditto, for this article. This article does not even deal with Romanians, it deals with a territory. So, we should not structure the article with the two theories in the intro and every section presenting the theories. Such an approach is bound to led to nightmares. Please, understand, it is not just me and you who edit. If we can not find a way to colaborate productively, imagine others. I am actually very surprised of all these news. I had an absolutly wonderful interaction with Hungarians on WP until now. At least the people I met were educated, well outspoken, civilized, pleasant to talk with, knowleadgible. I hope it is just a bad start and we can call it a misunderstanding. Dc76\ talk 06:46, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
1. The article was expanded (new titles).
2. In order to avoid a too long article some sentences were deleted:
a) unsourced sentences
b) copies from Encyclopedia Britannica - there is no point in cloneing another work, I do not understand what the added value would be (otherwise some similar new sentences based on reliable, pro-continuity work were added)
c) some other sentences that seemed less important (as far as I can remember all pro-continuity sentences were reserved)
3. Counting/grouping of peoples and waves - I suggest that the text should be finalised, and afterwards the structure could easily be modified
4. "Christianity" title - I would like to avoid a clone-article of the Origin of the Romanians (because that article needs significant improvment)
5. The description of the divergent theories - there is a separate article for this purpose (Origin of the Romanians)
I hope that the above changes are acceptable (at least for the time being, until the text is finalised). Borsoka ( talk) 22:36, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Borsoka ( talk) 05:23, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I would like to understand what is the reason which qualifies the article unbalanced.
I think if the only reason of the qualification that the article refers to the fact that there are divergent approaches, the tag is not justified. If there are other reasons, I would like to understand them. Borsoka ( talk) 18:49, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I have explained in more detail above. Just to summarize:
There is some reference to the unbalanced nature of the article, but other issues are not explained. I would like to understand them. Borsoka ( talk) 18:51, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Dc76\ talk 04:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
What about changing the wording of the sentences: "Scholars, based on archaeological and linguistic and... reasearches think" "Other scholars, based on .... maintain". Although weasel words should be avoided, but a similar approach may mitigate your concerns. Borsoka ( talk) 23:09, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
I would like to understand what is the relevance of the "expression" Thraco-Roman in articles describing the history of Romania. I know that the Dacians probably spoke a Thracian language (as the French, Spanish, and Romanian people speak a Romance language), but there is no trace of this expression in connection with Romania. Thraco-Roman in the international literature refers to the Romanized Thracians of Bulgaria. In connection with Romania, mainly the "Daco-Roman" or "Romanized Dacian", sometimes the "Romanized autochtonous" expressions are used. Borsoka ( talk) 04:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Although the length of the article is still within the well-established limits, but maybe a better closing date could be found. The more I have been thinking of the present closing date (c. 1300), which is only based on consensus and not on reliable source, the more I have become convinced that it is a turning point only from Hungarian point of view (the end of the Árpád dynasty), but from Romanian point of view it has no significance. I think the Tatar invasion is a better closing date: (1) the first Romanian polities (Mishlav, Litovoi, Seneslau, etc.) documented by nearly contemporary sources were formed around or following that date - therefore it is a relevant date for the history of Wallachia and Moldavia (2) the internal policy in the Kingdom of Hungary changed radically after the Tatar invasion - therefore it is also relevant for Transylvania, and the Partium (OK, Crisana, the Banat, and Maramures). Borsoka ( talk) 07:01, 26 January 2009 (UTC) Moreover, the first sentence of the article which is based on a reliable source also suggest a date closer to the 1240s. Borsoka ( talk) 07:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
"During this period, neither Vlachs (early Romanians), nor Slavs in the area developed a polity to be reckoned with" My concerns are the following:
My suggestion: "During this period, the Vlachs (early Romanians) did not develop a polity to be reckoned with; the first references to incipient states of the Romanians were recorded in sources written in the 12th-13th centuries." Borsoka ( talk) 05:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Disagree with your motivation, but agree with your proposal. Perhaps you could add:
"During this period, the Vlachs (early Romanians) did not develop a polity to be reckoned with; the first references to incipient states of the Romanians (9th-10th century) were recorded in sources written in the 12th-13th centuries." Dc76\ talk 21:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
"The Mongol invasion affected first of Moldavia and Wallachia, and then Transylvania."
"It had a long-lasting impact on Romanian history and culture, destroying most of the cultural and economical records from the time, and killing up to 1/2 of the population."
"Neither Romanians, nor the Kingdom of Hungary had any chance against the Mongol hordes."
"The swiftenes of the invasion took many by surprise, and forced them to retreat and hide in forests and enclosed valleys of the Carpathians."
I suggest that we should insist on following only reliable sources. Borsoka ( talk) 14:13, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
the article needs a very brief section to link this article to Romania in the Middle Ages. Nergaal ( talk) 00:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Excellent work, Greier !! -- Vintila Barbu 15:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Why "This article does not cite any references or sources. (March 2007)"? There are references and sources at the and. So there are some. I think the work of the contributors can be improved, but I think also the mark "This article does not cite any references or sources. (March 2007)" it´s not correct. -- Intelitem ( talk) 13:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I am wondering whether it has any merit to consider renaming this article? There are two issues that I see with the current title.
First, the term Romania was not used in the modern sense or in reference to more or less the current territory at least until 1700. In fact, the term Romania in middle ages referred to Rumelia. This area, however inexact in modern political terms, was then known either as Dacia, or as the name of the particular migratory tribe for the particular period. From 11th century, part of it is also known as (historic) Hungary. One can, of course, debate that we can name it Romanians in the Early Middle Ages, but there is a different article dealing with that, namely Origin of Romanians.
The second issue is that we should encompass not only Early Middle Ages but also High Middle Ages. Except for Transylvania, the two make a common period for what was Dacia. This article does not talk about Cumans, nor about the Tatar invasion, but it should. The end years for this article, IMHO, should be 1000 for Tranylvania, 1270 for Wallachia, 1300 for Moldavia. And the continuation should be in articles about T, W, M respectively. I can understand the merits of an overview article Romania in the Middle Ages (although with a slightly different title, imho), but not as a main article. Rather, Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldavia should have specific articles.
So, I can suggest something like Dacia in the Early and High Middle Ages with the observation that High Middle Ages for Trasylvania would actually be covered elsewhere. This article must be written so that it can be smoothly continues with Kingdom of Hungary in the Middle Ages, Foundation of Wallachia, and Foundation of Moldavia, while itself smoothly continuing Roman Dacia and Free Dacians.
If some do not like "Dacia", we can have "Tisza-Dniester-Danube area" instead. But "Romania" simply does not make sense. It sounds like "USA in the Early Middle Ages". Now, "Northern America ..." is a different story, and that is what I am suggesting. Another alternative could be "Northern Balkans", but then we should expand it to include modern Hungary and Slovakia, and at least partially Croatia. Dc76\ talk 02:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Borsoka ( talk) 03:46, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Borsoka ( talk) 06:35, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your reply. It is very detailed, and I need to think more about different aspects you mention. Unformtulately, I want to go offline now, so I will have to postpone a more full answer. For now I would like to mention two things: 1) that most of your arguments make sense to me and I simply need more time to think about the issues, 2) that there is no contradiction in having articles in History of M/W/T and in parallel articles in H of Romania/Hungary, etc. Look, for example how it is done here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain#History. This is more or less what I have in mind. And I think you misunderstood something: I do not mean to merge R on Early Middle Ages with R in Middle Ages. I only wondered whether the term Romania is appropriate for that time period. Dc76\ talk 07:27, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I really do not understand what is the purpose when we are counting the waves. Is there any reliable source using this distinction? (I mean 1. Goths, Huns, Gepids, Slavs, Magyars 2. Pechenegs, Cumans, Tatars) Why not 1. Goths 2. Huns 3. Gepids 4. Slavs 5. Magyars 6. Pechenegs 7. Cumans 8. Tatars? Borsoka ( talk) 19:52, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Goths, Huns, Gepids, Avars did not settle, and they simply replaced each other. There is a clear continuity between them, and then a break when Charlemegne defeated the Avars. Slavs and Hungarians, as well as to smaller extent Bulgars are a different story: the settles, they formed smaller or larger states, they did not move away from the region. Pechenegs, Cumans and Tatars again have a consecutivity between them. But, please, do not take my word for this. Just open any book that deals with Romania in the Dark Ages and you see this split into three. We can not bring our own chronological division, we simply have to follow what is in the books. Dc76\ talk 06:21, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I really do not know when the Early Middle Ages in Romania ended. Is there any consensual date? I am not convinced that the 13th-14th centuries are included. Borsoka ( talk) 19:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
The Early Middle Ages ended differently in the 3 regions: in Transylvania they ended with the Hungarian conquest in 1003. So there should be a separate article dealing with Transylvania in 1003-1526, which has to reflective, but only more specific territorially of Kingdom of Hungary in the Middle Ages. In Wallachia, the key year is 1272, when the first half-independent entity appeared, which in a few decaded became independent. In Moldavia, it is 1346 for just a similar reason. Romania had a longer Early Middle Ages than the rest of Europe, because it was actually a Dark Ages (b/c of the absense of any state) - from 271 till 1003/1272/1346. Transylvania got into High and Later Middle Ages more or less in parallel with the western Europe. Wallachia and Moldavia started them later, and then had to "catch". For Wallachia, the next "braking" points are 1386 (Mircea cel Batrin) and 1512 (end of Basarab dinasty). For Moldavia it is even moresquized: 1457 and 1504 (the start and the end of the reign of Stephen the Great, that much he changed that principality). Even early modern cronicles brake at 1504 and 1512. For example Grigore Ureche, just to mention the first that comes to mind, writes till 1504, then gives a long description of all the countries around in that year, then continues from 1504 on. Again, I am not presenting here my point of view, i simply tell you what I understand to be the reason behind these divisions in books. Dc76\ talk 06:32, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
"Many scholars, especially Hungarians, argue that Romanization in Dacia was, in fact, modest and that the later Romanian population living north of the Carpathians was not native to the region but migrated there from south of the Danube."
"Other scholars, including the majority of Romanians, insist that a substantial Romanized population maintained itself continuously in old Dacia and that the ethnogenesis of the Romanian people occurred precisely there. Mainstream sources, such as Encyclopaedia Britannica follow the latter interpretation."
Borsoka ( talk) 20:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
There are two differnt problems that you bring up. One is about continuity theory and migration theory. The second problem is with some archeology in Communist Romania. You should be aware that in Ceausescu's Romania there were a number of idiots that wanted to become historians, but they were nothing but party members. So they did as the party told them: they "found" traces of Dacian fortresses where there were none, they had absolutley no tools to do research to the standard and just a desire to write articles and books that pleased the "great leader". Some of them went as idiotic as to reject the Out of Africa theory and "prove" that Dacians were in Dacia as far back as 600,000 BC. One phrase with which these idiots were ridiculized was "monkeys that jump from tree to tree in 600,000 BC and recite Miorita". You should be aware that nobody takes them seriously nowadays. So, when you see criticism of Romanian archeologists in 1970-80 from westerners, those westerners are very civil and delicate and do not call things as they were: crocks.
I am not a historian, so I don't know inside info, and I also am not qualified to have a discussion on the level of a historian (although I like to claim I read something non-negligible about history, I always call myself 100% amateur).
But back to problem number one. It is a different story. You see the problem is this: mainstream historians outside Hungary, Romania (and outside some German ones from 19th century, who actually founded the migration theory) do not present the things as you did: here are 2 theories, here is what they say. That can definitevely be done, but not here, rather in a separate article "Theories about the origin of the Romanians". What meanstream sourses do is describe what is known (facts), not what is theorised (mainstream interpretation and alternatives). I think that is how the article should be structured. Interpretation aparts, there are a lot of facts that can be presented. And it is not so difficult to chose the words sensibly. The second thing I would respectfully ask you to notice is that mainsteam western historians mention the 2 theories but "tell" only one of them. It is absolutely all right to add info about theories that bring doubts and to present those theories thoroughly. But to simply cut each topic into two alternatives and only have a presentation of two alternatives about each topic with pros and cons is no way to go, and mainstream historians do not do that.
I know that you will not agree with the comparison, but please don't take it as a comparison, rather simply as a modus operandi in presentation. Theory of evolution and Theory of creation. Scientific books do not go around presenting each topic from 2 points of view with pros and cons. That's not science, that's amateurism. They present what the scientific community believes, and at the end they present the existence of alternatives. Believe me, I heard of very educated and reputable scientists who believe in the theory of creation. That does not hinder them from sequensing DNA and do everything all the others do. They simply retain a different view on an isolated area. And for all it's worth nobody can say with 100% certainty they are wrong. Only that scnietific community at large believes a different story. Now back to WP, it would be very tempting for someone to present a number of articles in a double way: take section by section and present one theory, then the other. Very tempting, Yet that's not done. Because that is an amateurish way vs a scientific way. (I suppose you are also not historian, like me.) But we can do better that the first way: we can retell the story the scientific way, simply by reading and summarazing mainstream books, which, if it is a good book, will definitevely mention also the alternative theory/ies, and would not present them as ridicule (as red comissars doing atheist propaganda), but very tactfully and respectfully, knowing that for what it's worth, all mainkind can be wrong. Scientific discoveries are only done by those that doubt. Politicians can ridicule. For scientists, it is too low to ridicule, anybody. Dc76\ talk 07:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I think that this part of article is intended to cover the Christian objects found in Transylvania, the mission of Saint Saba the Goth and Saint Nicetas, the martirs of Dubrodja, and reference to the reasons why the Romanians adopted Old Church Slavonic although contemporary sources suggest that the territory of present-day Romanian was proselyzed in Gothic, Latin and Greek. If this is the case, I suggest that the arguments should be described in the article of Origin of the Romanians, otherwise this article will be too long. Similarly, I suggest that copper coins, wheel-turned pottery, vatra, and other pro-continuity arguments should be described in the "Origin of the Romanians". I hope that there are editors who could summarize these arguments, because the referred article is a nightmare now. Borsoka ( talk) 21:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I am afraid you misread in the sense of this article. This article is not about thoeries of the Origin of the Romanians. The Origins of the Romanians does not include where, but also what. Even that article should focuss more on Thraco-Roman, and Christianity, and Slav influence, and so on. The theories do NOT disagree on whan happened and who Romanians are. They simply place the center of gravity in two different point: Carpathians and Transylvania, respectively Northern Serbia. So, I suggest to start by finding points of agreement between editors, rather than points of disagrement. We can devote one of 3 or 4 sections of Origin of the Romanians to the two theories. The discussion about theories is blown out of proportion, and it can only lead to piling on of more Romanian and Hungarian editors in bad mood and faith. Is that what we want? I hope not. Ditto, for this article. This article does not even deal with Romanians, it deals with a territory. So, we should not structure the article with the two theories in the intro and every section presenting the theories. Such an approach is bound to led to nightmares. Please, understand, it is not just me and you who edit. If we can not find a way to colaborate productively, imagine others. I am actually very surprised of all these news. I had an absolutly wonderful interaction with Hungarians on WP until now. At least the people I met were educated, well outspoken, civilized, pleasant to talk with, knowleadgible. I hope it is just a bad start and we can call it a misunderstanding. Dc76\ talk 06:46, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
1. The article was expanded (new titles).
2. In order to avoid a too long article some sentences were deleted:
a) unsourced sentences
b) copies from Encyclopedia Britannica - there is no point in cloneing another work, I do not understand what the added value would be (otherwise some similar new sentences based on reliable, pro-continuity work were added)
c) some other sentences that seemed less important (as far as I can remember all pro-continuity sentences were reserved)
3. Counting/grouping of peoples and waves - I suggest that the text should be finalised, and afterwards the structure could easily be modified
4. "Christianity" title - I would like to avoid a clone-article of the Origin of the Romanians (because that article needs significant improvment)
5. The description of the divergent theories - there is a separate article for this purpose (Origin of the Romanians)
I hope that the above changes are acceptable (at least for the time being, until the text is finalised). Borsoka ( talk) 22:36, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Borsoka ( talk) 05:23, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I would like to understand what is the reason which qualifies the article unbalanced.
I think if the only reason of the qualification that the article refers to the fact that there are divergent approaches, the tag is not justified. If there are other reasons, I would like to understand them. Borsoka ( talk) 18:49, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I have explained in more detail above. Just to summarize:
There is some reference to the unbalanced nature of the article, but other issues are not explained. I would like to understand them. Borsoka ( talk) 18:51, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Dc76\ talk 04:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
What about changing the wording of the sentences: "Scholars, based on archaeological and linguistic and... reasearches think" "Other scholars, based on .... maintain". Although weasel words should be avoided, but a similar approach may mitigate your concerns. Borsoka ( talk) 23:09, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
I would like to understand what is the relevance of the "expression" Thraco-Roman in articles describing the history of Romania. I know that the Dacians probably spoke a Thracian language (as the French, Spanish, and Romanian people speak a Romance language), but there is no trace of this expression in connection with Romania. Thraco-Roman in the international literature refers to the Romanized Thracians of Bulgaria. In connection with Romania, mainly the "Daco-Roman" or "Romanized Dacian", sometimes the "Romanized autochtonous" expressions are used. Borsoka ( talk) 04:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Although the length of the article is still within the well-established limits, but maybe a better closing date could be found. The more I have been thinking of the present closing date (c. 1300), which is only based on consensus and not on reliable source, the more I have become convinced that it is a turning point only from Hungarian point of view (the end of the Árpád dynasty), but from Romanian point of view it has no significance. I think the Tatar invasion is a better closing date: (1) the first Romanian polities (Mishlav, Litovoi, Seneslau, etc.) documented by nearly contemporary sources were formed around or following that date - therefore it is a relevant date for the history of Wallachia and Moldavia (2) the internal policy in the Kingdom of Hungary changed radically after the Tatar invasion - therefore it is also relevant for Transylvania, and the Partium (OK, Crisana, the Banat, and Maramures). Borsoka ( talk) 07:01, 26 January 2009 (UTC) Moreover, the first sentence of the article which is based on a reliable source also suggest a date closer to the 1240s. Borsoka ( talk) 07:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
"During this period, neither Vlachs (early Romanians), nor Slavs in the area developed a polity to be reckoned with" My concerns are the following:
My suggestion: "During this period, the Vlachs (early Romanians) did not develop a polity to be reckoned with; the first references to incipient states of the Romanians were recorded in sources written in the 12th-13th centuries." Borsoka ( talk) 05:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Disagree with your motivation, but agree with your proposal. Perhaps you could add:
"During this period, the Vlachs (early Romanians) did not develop a polity to be reckoned with; the first references to incipient states of the Romanians (9th-10th century) were recorded in sources written in the 12th-13th centuries." Dc76\ talk 21:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
"The Mongol invasion affected first of Moldavia and Wallachia, and then Transylvania."
"It had a long-lasting impact on Romanian history and culture, destroying most of the cultural and economical records from the time, and killing up to 1/2 of the population."
"Neither Romanians, nor the Kingdom of Hungary had any chance against the Mongol hordes."
"The swiftenes of the invasion took many by surprise, and forced them to retreat and hide in forests and enclosed valleys of the Carpathians."
I suggest that we should insist on following only reliable sources. Borsoka ( talk) 14:13, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
the article needs a very brief section to link this article to Romania in the Middle Ages. Nergaal ( talk) 00:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)